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Consumer Protection?

Hi All,


I'm hoping someone can help me with a question I have.


I engaged a lawyer to handle a simple arbitration in 2010 that ended in summer 2012. During that time, it should have been a matter of an initial consultation, a few mails, one arbitration and then some follow up... overall, about 10-15 of billable hours. I paid 3'000 retainer and then about another 1000 along the way.


Without going into too much detail, towards the end of the arbitration, she recommended 'giving' away 15-20% of the total amount to the other party to expedite things, which I reluctantly did to move on.


After monies were received, I sent a mail asking if there was any outstanding bill with her. No answer. 1 month later I sent another request if there was any outstanding monies. No answer. 1 month later I wrote again. No answer.


After 3 months and 3 tries for closure I assumed that, having already paid close to 4,000 for (what I assumed) 10-15 hours of work and her getting me 15-20% less than I was entitled to, all was settled. I invested what remained of the settlement last year…


In November 2013 I received a mail from the lawyer saying she’s changing firms and closing out her old accounts, saying I owe over 5,000 and she wants me to pay immediately. I pointed out it’s been a loooong time since I requested 3 times for a final bill and that I’d like to see an itemization of the work done, as I also found the calculation on work off.


She didn’t give me an itemized bill right away and started to get a little nasty. I insisted on seeing the hours and justification and, after going back and forth a few times, she finally sent it to me. She’s somehow itemized 47.1 hours, which would be 21,195CHF worth of work in her world – but she’s still keen to offer me a ‘mate’s rate’ (although it’s clear I’m NOT her mate) of just under 6,000 if I pay quickly.


My question is – is there a consumer group in GVA or CH where I inquire about her dodgy business practices, namely timeliness of billing and discrepancies in the itemized bill?


Many thanks in advance!  

The text you are quoting:

Hi All,


I'm hoping someone can help me with a question I have.


I engaged a lawyer to handle a simple arbitration in 2010 that ended in summer 2012. During that time, it should have been a matter of an initial consultation, a few mails, one arbitration and then some follow up... overall, about 10-15 of billable hours. I paid 3'000 retainer and then about another 1000 along the way.


Without going into too much detail, towards the end of the arbitration, she recommended 'giving' away 15-20% of the total amount to the other party to expedite things, which I reluctantly did to move on.


After monies were received, I sent a mail asking if there was any outstanding bill with her. No answer. 1 month later I sent another request if there was any outstanding monies. No answer. 1 month later I wrote again. No answer.


After 3 months and 3 tries for closure I assumed that, having already paid close to 4,000 for (what I assumed) 10-15 hours of work and her getting me 15-20% less than I was entitled to, all was settled. I invested what remained of the settlement last year…


In November 2013 I received a mail from the lawyer saying she’s changing firms and closing out her old accounts, saying I owe over 5,000 and she wants me to pay immediately. I pointed out it’s been a loooong time since I requested 3 times for a final bill and that I’d like to see an itemization of the work done, as I also found the calculation on work off.


She didn’t give me an itemized bill right away and started to get a little nasty. I insisted on seeing the hours and justification and, after going back and forth a few times, she finally sent it to me. She’s somehow itemized 47.1 hours, which would be 21,195CHF worth of work in her world – but she’s still keen to offer me a ‘mate’s rate’ (although it’s clear I’m NOT her mate) of just under 6,000 if I pay quickly.


My question is – is there a consumer group in GVA or CH where I inquire about her dodgy business practices, namely timeliness of billing and discrepancies in the itemized bill?


Many thanks in advance!  


Matt WilliamsMar 28, 2014 @ 17:23
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Re: Consumer Protection?
Post 1

http://www.odageneve.ch/ could be worth a try.

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http://www.odageneve.ch/ could be worth a try.


Alan S, Mar 28, 2014 @ 18:17
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Re: Consumer Protection?
Post 2

"Ordre des Avocats" it's probably the best thing you could try right now. I advice you to subscribe a legal protection for future cases.

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"Ordre des Avocats" it's probably the best thing you could try right now. I advice you to subscribe a legal protection for future cases.


Luis C, Mar 28, 2014 @ 21:46
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Post 3

Thanks Alan and Luis for the kind responses and advice. In case someone might find themselves in a similar situation, I spoke with the ODA and they referred me to the Commission en matière d'honoraires d'avocat. We have to write a letter presenting our case and in about 2 months (they only convene the first Thursday of the month) they will arbitrate the dispute.

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Thanks Alan and Luis for the kind responses and advice. In case someone might find themselves in a similar situation, I spoke with the ODA and they referred me to the Commission en matière d'honoraires d'avocat. We have to write a letter presenting our case and in about 2 months (they only convene the first Thursday of the month) they will arbitrate the dispute.


Matt Williams, Mar 31, 2014 @ 21:08
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Re: Consumer Protection?
Post 4

Matt... I am curious... what was the result?  Thx. kkc

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Matt... I am curious... what was the result?  Thx. kkc


kkc k, Jul 6, 2015 @ 12:56
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Re: Consumer Protection?
Post 5

HI KKC,


Since you asked, I'll give the update. It took a little while to get the arbitration date, but we had our day in court. The arbitration 'court' is mostly made up of legal peers, so it felt a little like an old boy's club (even if the lawyer on question is a woman - they all knew each other fairly well) and it was decided already (they'd, of course, studied the petition made and the lawyers response to it) - it was just a matter of agreeing upone terms. In Geneva, a lawyer can take up to 5 years to charge you after the fact (I find that a little ridiculous), even if you've asked for a final bill and the lawyer doesn't indicate there are more monies owed. Because of this, we agreed upon a slighlty reduced final bill that originally presented and cut our losses... Taking any other steps would have risked going to court, where she would have asked for over 20,000 + damages. I've since invested in legal protection and cross my fingers I won't have to use it. 

The text you are quoting:

HI KKC,


Since you asked, I'll give the update. It took a little while to get the arbitration date, but we had our day in court. The arbitration 'court' is mostly made up of legal peers, so it felt a little like an old boy's club (even if the lawyer on question is a woman - they all knew each other fairly well) and it was decided already (they'd, of course, studied the petition made and the lawyers response to it) - it was just a matter of agreeing upone terms. In Geneva, a lawyer can take up to 5 years to charge you after the fact (I find that a little ridiculous), even if you've asked for a final bill and the lawyer doesn't indicate there are more monies owed. Because of this, we agreed upon a slighlty reduced final bill that originally presented and cut our losses... Taking any other steps would have risked going to court, where she would have asked for over 20,000 + damages. I've since invested in legal protection and cross my fingers I won't have to use it. 


Matt Williams, Jul 7, 2015 @ 11:41
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Re: Consumer Protection?
Post 6

Thank you Matt.  Live and learn I guess...!  I find that in Switzerland it's quite common for lawyers and accountants to send bills without itemising the hours spent and how that time was spent.  And then they take astonishing offence if you question the hours. 

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Thank you Matt.  Live and learn I guess...!  I find that in Switzerland it's quite common for lawyers and accountants to send bills without itemising the hours spent and how that time was spent.  And then they take astonishing offence if you question the hours. 


kkc k, Jul 7, 2015 @ 17:53
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Re: Consumer Protection?
Post 7

I might add one experience from a friend: arbitration, requiring, a few mails, a few calls one attendance at a court by an assistant lawyer: 7000 CHF. but if I paid within 7 days I could get a 50% discount. Hourly rate: 450 CHF!

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I might add one experience from a friend: arbitration, requiring, a few mails, a few calls one attendance at a court by an assistant lawyer: 7000 CHF. but if I paid within 7 days I could get a 50% discount. Hourly rate: 450 CHF!


didlida, Jul 7, 2015 @ 18:54
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Re: Consumer Protection?
Post 8

It's those lawyers that should be taken to court!

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It's those lawyers that should be taken to court!


ajimenezp, Jul 7, 2015 @ 22:08
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Re: Consumer Protection?
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Thank you Matt.  Live and learn I guess...!  I find that in Switzerland it's quite common for lawyers and accountants to send bills without itemising the hours spent and how that time was spent.  And then they take astonishing offence if you question the hours. 


Jul 7, 15 17:53

Any provider of professional services, regardless of type, who is doing a good job for an honest price will happily provide itemised billing.  Providers who baulk at a request for the details are invariably not doing a good job and/or are attempting to be dishonest with their charges.  I have never seen an exception to this.


When engaging any professional (including lawyers, plumbers, dentists, consultants, tree surgeons etc) you should always agree charges in advance and make it clear that you will pay on receipt of an agreed, itemised invoice.  If they don't agree you know that they are planning to rip you off.

The text you are quoting:

Any provider of professional services, regardless of type, who is doing a good job for an honest price will happily provide itemised billing.  Providers who baulk at a request for the details are invariably not doing a good job and/or are attempting to be dishonest with their charges.  I have never seen an exception to this.


When engaging any professional (including lawyers, plumbers, dentists, consultants, tree surgeons etc) you should always agree charges in advance and make it clear that you will pay on receipt of an agreed, itemised invoice.  If they don't agree you know that they are planning to rip you off.


Andy C, Jul 8, 2015 @ 00:02
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