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Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Geneva's smoking ban overturned:

http://www.worldradio.ch/wrs/news/switzerland/genevas-smoking-ban-overturned.shtml?11577



not the best news for non-smokers.
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Geneva's smoking ban overturned:

http://www.worldradio.ch/wrs/news/switzerland/genevas-smoking-ban-overturned.shtml?11577



not the best news for non-smokers.
extremalSep 30, 2008 @ 15:24
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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 1
I just heard the news on the radio, and couldn't believe my ears! How can you reverse a smoking ban?! You would assume that the reason for implementing one in the first place would be that it is a medically proven fact that smoking as well as breathing in smoke brings serious health risks. So, how has this changed since the 1st of July? Smoking suddenly isn't bad for you anymore?

I've really enjoyed the smoking ban, not least because it means that sitting around in cafés doesn't give me a headache anymore, and it doesn't make my hair and my clothes smell like old ash tray.

Smokers always have the choice of going outside to light a cigarette if they want, but someone who doesn't like being in a smoky environment does not have the choice of avoiding it in a restaurant/bar/café as long as it's permitted. So you can't even bring out the card about 'free choice' in this case, because freedom of choice is something that must apply to everyone, not only those who smoke but also those who want to avoid it.



But on the other hand: if Geneva politicians can change their minds about the smoking ban, perhaps they can also realise that perhaps the decision to tear down Artamis actually wasn't that strongly backed up and needs to be reverted... But then again, maybe squats are more harmful to you than cigarettes?
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I just heard the news on the radio, and couldn't believe my ears! How can you reverse a smoking ban?! You would assume that the reason for implementing one in the first place would be that it is a medically proven fact that smoking as well as breathing in smoke brings serious health risks. So, how has this changed since the 1st of July? Smoking suddenly isn't bad for you anymore?

I've really enjoyed the smoking ban, not least because it means that sitting around in cafés doesn't give me a headache anymore, and it doesn't make my hair and my clothes smell like old ash tray.

Smokers always have the choice of going outside to light a cigarette if they want, but someone who doesn't like being in a smoky environment does not have the choice of avoiding it in a restaurant/bar/café as long as it's permitted. So you can't even bring out the card about 'free choice' in this case, because freedom of choice is something that must apply to everyone, not only those who smoke but also those who want to avoid it.



But on the other hand: if Geneva politicians can change their minds about the smoking ban, perhaps they can also realise that perhaps the decision to tear down Artamis actually wasn't that strongly backed up and needs to be reverted... But then again, maybe squats are more harmful to you than cigarettes?
charlotta, Sep 30, 2008 @ 16:26
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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 2
Damn!!!

Worst news I had in a while! It was so good to have smoke free places...

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Damn!!!

Worst news I had in a while! It was so good to have smoke free places...
Nir Ofek, Sep 30, 2008 @ 16:51

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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 3
Hi Tinkie,



I'm not 'panicking', I'm just pointing out the absurdity in taking back a law that's been introduced in order to improve people's health.



The fact that this withdrawal is happening because they forgot to inform the federal government does not make me any more impressed by the politicians that run Geneva...
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Hi Tinkie,



I'm not 'panicking', I'm just pointing out the absurdity in taking back a law that's been introduced in order to improve people's health.



The fact that this withdrawal is happening because they forgot to inform the federal government does not make me any more impressed by the politicians that run Geneva...
charlotta, Sep 30, 2008 @ 16:56
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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 4
This is sickening, but I don't see how they can revert a ban that was approved by almost 80% of Geneva inhabitants. It makes no sense to take a step back in what's becoming the norm in Europe, and a loophole in the law cannot seriously change that. I will personally collect cigarette butts and ashes and dispose them on the steps of the Tribunal Fédéral if they go through with this. I certainly hope people won't passively accept this stepback after vehemently approving the ban last year.


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This is sickening, but I don't see how they can revert a ban that was approved by almost 80% of Geneva inhabitants. It makes no sense to take a step back in what's becoming the norm in Europe, and a loophole in the law cannot seriously change that. I will personally collect cigarette butts and ashes and dispose them on the steps of the Tribunal Fédéral if they go through with this. I certainly hope people won't passively accept this stepback after vehemently approving the ban last year.



b_karma, Sep 30, 2008 @ 16:59
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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 5
Great idea B Karma.

As for me, when I next call to reserve a table in a restaurant I'll start asking if smoking inside the restaurant is permitted. If it is, I'll bring my friends to eat somewhere else!



(By the way... I never understood: people don't need a law to know that farting in a public place is disgusting! Why do they need it to know they should go out to smoke?)
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Great idea B Karma.

As for me, when I next call to reserve a table in a restaurant I'll start asking if smoking inside the restaurant is permitted. If it is, I'll bring my friends to eat somewhere else!



(By the way... I never understood: people don't need a law to know that farting in a public place is disgusting! Why do they need it to know they should go out to smoke?)
Stef__Granny, Sep 30, 2008 @ 17:13
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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 6
This is just another reason why I believe that democracy is a farce, we only get consulted on decisions that the government want to consult us on. And they will, if they feel like it make decisions that affect our welfare without consulting us.



Let's face it people we are well trained animals that jump when they tell us to jump, believing it's because we want to, and that we have some influence and say in what goes on.



I wouldn't be surprised if the parties concerned in this ruling were all smokers, I am greatly disappointed as a non-smoker who works in bars, I now will have to breathe the smoke of a few hundred cigarettes per hour, each evening I work!!!



Thanks a lot Lausanne
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This is just another reason why I believe that democracy is a farce, we only get consulted on decisions that the government want to consult us on. And they will, if they feel like it make decisions that affect our welfare without consulting us.



Let's face it people we are well trained animals that jump when they tell us to jump, believing it's because we want to, and that we have some influence and say in what goes on.



I wouldn't be surprised if the parties concerned in this ruling were all smokers, I am greatly disappointed as a non-smoker who works in bars, I now will have to breathe the smoke of a few hundred cigarettes per hour, each evening I work!!!



Thanks a lot Lausanne
DJ_Symcard, Sep 30, 2008 @ 17:58
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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 7
Who would sign a petition to bring back the smoking ban? I certainly would
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Who would sign a petition to bring back the smoking ban? I certainly would
DJ_Symcard, Sep 30, 2008 @ 18:02
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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 8
Fair enough, Tinkie. Thought you were commenting on my upset posting.



b_karma: I'm in. Tribunal federal probably deserve a bit of ash on their doorstep in either case.



Stef_Granny: One of the drawbacks about the smoking ban is that you notice that people actually do fart in public. They've done it all along, only before July 1st their secret was well hidden because of the smoke fumes....






The text you are quoting:
Fair enough, Tinkie. Thought you were commenting on my upset posting.



b_karma: I'm in. Tribunal federal probably deserve a bit of ash on their doorstep in either case.



Stef_Granny: One of the drawbacks about the smoking ban is that you notice that people actually do fart in public. They've done it all along, only before July 1st their secret was well hidden because of the smoke fumes....







charlotta, Sep 30, 2008 @ 18:09
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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 9
Ha ha ha! Charlotta! Your last comment made me laugh!!



Reminds me of when a kid in one of my classes did that... only it wasn't! :sick:



:-) J.
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Ha ha ha! Charlotta! Your last comment made me laugh!!



Reminds me of when a kid in one of my classes did that... only it wasn't! :sick:



:-) J.
JulianT, Sep 30, 2008 @ 18:34
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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 10

Hi everyone!

as you know shakers was the only venue with non smoking dance floor even before the officiall smoking ban. but sadly we didnt get enough credit for it! however we did continue having it with alot of diffuculties and not enough support. Now i found myself with the dilema of where we would revirt back to our prior policy or keep the ashtrays outside.

Now its all up to you people if you wanna keep shakers smoke free or not give me your thoughts and  hopefully dilema solved before this weekend!

cheers Billy

The text you are quoting:

Hi everyone!

as you know shakers was the only venue with non smoking dance floor even before the officiall smoking ban. but sadly we didnt get enough credit for it! however we did continue having it with alot of diffuculties and not enough support. Now i found myself with the dilema of where we would revirt back to our prior policy or keep the ashtrays outside.

Now its all up to you people if you wanna keep shakers smoke free or not give me your thoughts and  hopefully dilema solved before this weekend!

cheers Billy
Mr_Shakers, Sep 30, 2008 @ 20:48

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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 11
Tinkie, I hope you're right that the ban goes federal but DJ Symcard is right that the govt perhaps realized that it was getting less tax money from people smoking less, or the restaurant union perhaps complained enough.
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Tinkie, I hope you're right that the ban goes federal but DJ Symcard is right that the govt perhaps realized that it was getting less tax money from people smoking less, or the restaurant union perhaps complained enough.
MarmarK, Sep 30, 2008 @ 21:58
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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 12
I think that people should commend Geneva, not condemn it, for the enthusiastic pushing forward of the cantonal vote. It's called being passionate, even if they made a mistake.

We can POST ON GLOCALS a list of "clean restos and bars" and boycott the others.

And it seems that if enough bar/bistro/café/brasserie/restaurant workers and customers would  make a petition stating "We don't want to work/eat/drink in an unhealthy environment", who could ignore that? 

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I think that people should commend Geneva, not condemn it, for the enthusiastic pushing forward of the cantonal vote. It's called being passionate, even if they made a mistake.

We can POST ON GLOCALS a list of "clean restos and bars" and boycott the others.

And it seems that if enough bar/bistro/café/brasserie/restaurant workers and customers would  make a petition stating "We don't want to work/eat/drink in an unhealthy environment", who could ignore that? 
MarmarK, Sep 30, 2008 @ 22:14

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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 13
While this is clearly frustrating for many, the result of the vote on the smoking ban still stands.

What the court said, was that the implementation did not have a legal basis (yet),

see [url=http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/news_digest/Federal_Court_reverses_Geneva_smoking_ban.html?siteSect=104&sid=9789510&cKey=1222770687000&ty=nd][/url]



So we have to be patient until the parliament cantonale makes the smoking ban law.

Hopefully this will be soon. :)

I even remember that I was surprised that this ban was announced only weeks after the vote.

Switzerland does not work so fast usually. ;)
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While this is clearly frustrating for many, the result of the vote on the smoking ban still stands.

What the court said, was that the implementation did not have a legal basis (yet),

see [url=http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/news_digest/Federal_Court_reverses_Geneva_smoking_ban.html?siteSect=104&sid=9789510&cKey=1222770687000&ty=nd][/url]



So we have to be patient until the parliament cantonale makes the smoking ban law.

Hopefully this will be soon. :)

I even remember that I was surprised that this ban was announced only weeks after the vote.

Switzerland does not work so fast usually. ;)
muon, Sep 30, 2008 @ 22:36
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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 14
well i think it's pathetic....

one more example on how money makes the world go round...and controls politics....

with all the tobacco companies around geneva....surely they've had a lot to say about the gva smoking ban...

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well i think it's pathetic....

one more example on how money makes the world go round...and controls politics....

with all the tobacco companies around geneva....surely they've had a lot to say about the gva smoking ban...
divagirl, Oct 1, 2008 @ 00:20

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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 15
I don't know very much about Swiss politics, but does it not seem a bit.... impulsive to introduce a law based on the results of a cantonal voting a few days after it's taken place if you don't know that this law will be approved by the federal government? And does this not seem a bit incompetent? I'm not sure passion and the implementing of new laws really belong together. Actually, I don't think it's a question of passion here; it's more like a case of politicians pushing something forward and then wanting to prove their point at any cost. That's not passion, that's arrogance.
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I don't know very much about Swiss politics, but does it not seem a bit.... impulsive to introduce a law based on the results of a cantonal voting a few days after it's taken place if you don't know that this law will be approved by the federal government? And does this not seem a bit incompetent? I'm not sure passion and the implementing of new laws really belong together. Actually, I don't think it's a question of passion here; it's more like a case of politicians pushing something forward and then wanting to prove their point at any cost. That's not passion, that's arrogance.
charlotta, Oct 1, 2008 @ 01:55
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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 16
Excellent! This could have been in Monty Python or Little Britain indeed.



If you find a copy of the article, I'd love to have a scan for my collection!



Syd.
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Excellent! This could have been in Monty Python or Little Britain indeed.



If you find a copy of the article, I'd love to have a scan for my collection!



Syd.
Syd_Brown, Oct 1, 2008 @ 11:38
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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 17
I'm surprised they displayed outrage .. We Brits would only loudly Tut at any indiscretion, in the same manner when someone dares to jump the queue.
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I'm surprised they displayed outrage .. We Brits would only loudly Tut at any indiscretion, in the same manner when someone dares to jump the queue.
britabroad, Oct 1, 2008 @ 11:41
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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 18
So for the next few months we'll all be confused which bar allows smoking and which doesn't, and if they have the smoking / non smoking section which to my mind never works as unless there is an air barrier, the smokes always drifts to the non smoking area, in the same way cats know I don't like them so they always want to sit on my lap!

I propose individual smoking hoods, you put on an enclosed helmet and smoke to your heart's content without bothering the rest of us.. I'll be marketing them on the Glocals Market place, it may even save the smokers money as they can breath in their own 2nd hand smoke without the need to light another fag.

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So for the next few months we'll all be confused which bar allows smoking and which doesn't, and if they have the smoking / non smoking section which to my mind never works as unless there is an air barrier, the smokes always drifts to the non smoking area, in the same way cats know I don't like them so they always want to sit on my lap!

I propose individual smoking hoods, you put on an enclosed helmet and smoke to your heart's content without bothering the rest of us.. I'll be marketing them on the Glocals Market place, it may even save the smokers money as they can breath in their own 2nd hand smoke without the need to light another fag.
britabroad, Oct 1, 2008 @ 11:52

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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 19
Hey, here are some videos against passive smoking:

http://www.turner-associates.org/tfe-videoshowcase/tobaccofree4.html

I read in the swissgerman newspapers, that barkeepers with places smaller than 80 squaremeters can decide to make their bars a smokers bar. http://www.bielertagblatt.ch/News/Schweiz/122028

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Hey, here are some videos against passive smoking:

http://www.turner-associates.org/tfe-videoshowcase/tobaccofree4.html

I read in the swissgerman newspapers, that barkeepers with places smaller than 80 squaremeters can decide to make their bars a smokers bar. http://www.bielertagblatt.ch/News/Schweiz/122028
yannik, Oct 1, 2008 @ 12:28

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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 20
Sorry to be a bit serious now, but it's worth to read it...;)

In Germany, the Federal Constitutional Court decided 2008-07-30, that to protect the german population from the health risk of passive smoking is far more important than having a freedom of choice for some barkeepers and restaurant owners.

In 2005 the german cancer institute in Heidelberg made a study, that 3300 people DIE PER YEAR through passive smoking. (http://www.who.int/tobacco/communications/events/wntd/2007/awards/en/index4.html see 2.)

Thats more than people killed through illegal drugs or traffic accidents.

So smoking in closed rooms is no longer estimated a harassment only, but a health risk with fatal consequences.

Just to repeat the fact, 3300 people DEAD through PASSIVE smoking. Its was not their choice.

Get real, Geneva! 

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Sorry to be a bit serious now, but it's worth to read it...;)

In Germany, the Federal Constitutional Court decided 2008-07-30, that to protect the german population from the health risk of passive smoking is far more important than having a freedom of choice for some barkeepers and restaurant owners.

In 2005 the german cancer institute in Heidelberg made a study, that 3300 people DIE PER YEAR through passive smoking. (http://www.who.int/tobacco/communications/events/wntd/2007/awards/en/index4.html see 2.)

Thats more than people killed through illegal drugs or traffic accidents.

So smoking in closed rooms is no longer estimated a harassment only, but a health risk with fatal consequences.

Just to repeat the fact, 3300 people DEAD through PASSIVE smoking. Its was not their choice.

Get real, Geneva! 


yannik, Oct 1, 2008 @ 12:38
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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 21
Anyway, the federal court only stated that the implementation of the regulation was formally incorrect.

Being serious for a moment, I only hope that the cantonal administration, hurries at making their job the right way so to reinstate the rule as chosen by voters.

It's only a question of formality after all, but respecting it is needed to grant that the rule of law is applied equally whatever the situation and people involved.



Just wanted to reassure the ones among us who are already suspecting an international corporation conspiracy of the tobacco industry. That would be rather petty to excerce such a pressure on such a tiny territory like Geneva's. ;)
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Anyway, the federal court only stated that the implementation of the regulation was formally incorrect.

Being serious for a moment, I only hope that the cantonal administration, hurries at making their job the right way so to reinstate the rule as chosen by voters.

It's only a question of formality after all, but respecting it is needed to grant that the rule of law is applied equally whatever the situation and people involved.



Just wanted to reassure the ones among us who are already suspecting an international corporation conspiracy of the tobacco industry. That would be rather petty to excerce such a pressure on such a tiny territory like Geneva's. ;)
Stef__Granny, Oct 1, 2008 @ 12:46
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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 22

dnt knw if u r considering it as a good news or bad ...but here in india we are having a ban imposed from 2mmorow-2nd Oct, for a smoking ban-no not to be jailed as isa:)  ..but heavily penalised by a fine ! bt consider ban should be a nessecity in certain ways atleast for all those who dnt smoke n for our next gen be in a safer place!

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dnt knw if u r considering it as a good news or bad ...but here in india we are having a ban imposed from 2mmorow-2nd Oct, for a smoking ban-no not to be jailed as isa:)  ..but heavily penalised by a fine ! bt consider ban should be a nessecity in certain ways atleast for all those who dnt smoke n for our next gen be in a safer place!
arpan, Oct 1, 2008 @ 16:36

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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 23

From what I read the Canton of Geneva didn't have the authority to ban smoking in the first place. It's the Constitution what can you do. They need to pass a law for that and it looks that I can be years considering that they need to draft it, schedule it for debate, the poluticians need to agree on the text and then IF it's approved they need to say from when it is applicable - probably a future date like the next year after being approved or something.

Really really sad I just hope they can make it a priority and find some sort of emergency procedure. It will be hard though considering that everyone in Switzerland would need to agree not only the canton of Geneva.

catalin

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From what I read the Canton of Geneva didn't have the authority to ban smoking in the first place. It's the Constitution what can you do. They need to pass a law for that and it looks that I can be years considering that they need to draft it, schedule it for debate, the poluticians need to agree on the text and then IF it's approved they need to say from when it is applicable - probably a future date like the next year after being approved or something.

Really really sad I just hope they can make it a priority and find some sort of emergency procedure. It will be hard though considering that everyone in Switzerland would need to agree not only the canton of Geneva.

catalin
catalin, Oct 1, 2008 @ 16:38

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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 24

ok guys this is the support i was talking about;

Hey Billy,
first off, thank you for opening up a discussion between yourself and your clients.
I enjoyed the ban on smoking, even being a smoker myself. I say keep the ashtrays outside, but I also know that your other clients may wish for the club atmosphere to re-gain client-provided smoke effects. ;) I respect that you, in the very least, are leaning on having the dance area downstairs as a smoke-free area.

No matter what the decision, you know you'll still see me out having a good time, as usual.

Take care and good luck!

Thanks kelly

The text you are quoting:

ok guys this is the support i was talking about;

Hey Billy,
first off, thank you for opening up a discussion between yourself and your clients.
I enjoyed the ban on smoking, even being a smoker myself. I say keep the ashtrays outside, but I also know that your other clients may wish for the club atmosphere to re-gain client-provided smoke effects. ;) I respect that you, in the very least, are leaning on having the dance area downstairs as a smoke-free area.

No matter what the decision, you know you'll still see me out having a good time, as usual.

Take care and good luck!

Thanks kelly
Mr_Shakers, Oct 1, 2008 @ 18:22

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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 25
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timalden, Oct 1, 2008 @ 22:07
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Post 26
We should choose only non-smoking bars and restaurants in Geneva.
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We should choose only non-smoking bars and restaurants in Geneva.
timalden, Oct 1, 2008 @ 22:50
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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 27
that's one die hard smokin' posting if i've ever seen one...(no pun intended)
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that's one die hard smokin' posting if i've ever seen one...(no pun intended)
divagirl, Oct 2, 2008 @ 02:05
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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 28
Isa,

as far as I'm concerned it's a question of education and respect of others.

I personally don't give a dam' about the health risks of smoking (a part from the ones concerning children and waiters in bars and restaurants, e.g. the ones who can't chose to inhale your smoke or not).



I think smoking should be forbidden in public places for the same reasons for which spitting on the floor of public transports was, when people were still used to do it.



It's disgusting, totally disrespectful of other people, and until some smokers will go on behaving as children and needing the rules to be law in order to understand them ... I'll consider the laws welcome.



Not all smokers are so immature, of course. But for the ones who already know that smoking in a restaurant or in a bar is just plain impolite nothing will change.

The law will only affect the silly immature rascals that think it is cool not to give a dam' about the others.



And anyway everybody will still be allowed to smoke or spit on the floor of their home or outside. As for spitting, I'm looking forward for the day when smokers will refrain from lighting one until there's somebody around them.

Ciao

:)

The Granny



P.S.

I'm also a great supporter of the old slogan "Forbidden forbidding", when it's applied among adults who understand the difference among exerting their freedom and stamping on somebody else's.
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Isa,

as far as I'm concerned it's a question of education and respect of others.

I personally don't give a dam' about the health risks of smoking (a part from the ones concerning children and waiters in bars and restaurants, e.g. the ones who can't chose to inhale your smoke or not).



I think smoking should be forbidden in public places for the same reasons for which spitting on the floor of public transports was, when people were still used to do it.



It's disgusting, totally disrespectful of other people, and until some smokers will go on behaving as children and needing the rules to be law in order to understand them ... I'll consider the laws welcome.



Not all smokers are so immature, of course. But for the ones who already know that smoking in a restaurant or in a bar is just plain impolite nothing will change.

The law will only affect the silly immature rascals that think it is cool not to give a dam' about the others.



And anyway everybody will still be allowed to smoke or spit on the floor of their home or outside. As for spitting, I'm looking forward for the day when smokers will refrain from lighting one until there's somebody around them.

Ciao

:)

The Granny



P.S.

I'm also a great supporter of the old slogan "Forbidden forbidding", when it's applied among adults who understand the difference among exerting their freedom and stamping on somebody else's.
Stef__Granny, Oct 2, 2008 @ 11:57
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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 29
and...



P.P.S.

As Tinkie can put sunscreen on herself without putting it on somebody else, I learnt several years ago to drink alcohol without vomiting it into somebody else's mouth afterwards.

... if you see what I mean! ;)

The day you'll be able to inhale smoke without exhaling it in somebody else's air later, you will be welcome to smoke in restaurants while I'm eating! ;)
The text you are quoting:
and...



P.P.S.

As Tinkie can put sunscreen on herself without putting it on somebody else, I learnt several years ago to drink alcohol without vomiting it into somebody else's mouth afterwards.

... if you see what I mean! ;)

The day you'll be able to inhale smoke without exhaling it in somebody else's air later, you will be welcome to smoke in restaurants while I'm eating! ;)
Stef__Granny, Oct 2, 2008 @ 12:06
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Post 30
"Life's a beach, and then you die."  It's just that I'd like my bit of the beach not to be polluted by other people's smoke. 

Isa: So I'll get some signs made up that say "Smokers - please don't worry about the impact your smoke is having on others".  That way you'll disobey and worry....  But then you'll say worrying will harm your health so we'll go round the argument again.... and all die early through stress-related illnesses..........

And please acknowledge my self restraint in not developing Tinkie's sun cream comment...

S

The text you are quoting:
"Life's a beach, and then you die."  It's just that I'd like my bit of the beach not to be polluted by other people's smoke. 

Isa: So I'll get some signs made up that say "Smokers - please don't worry about the impact your smoke is having on others".  That way you'll disobey and worry....  But then you'll say worrying will harm your health so we'll go round the argument again.... and all die early through stress-related illnesses..........

And please acknowledge my self restraint in not developing Tinkie's sun cream comment...

S
S99_Geneva, Oct 2, 2008 @ 12:25

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Post 31
Ah Isa - you know that's impossible for me to say, truthfully!  I have driven my car in Geneva (although i'm in a temporary green phase now without car and reliant on public transport).  And I do see your point.  And there is a kind of hypocracy in the fact that our car driving, electricity using etc activities that do cause pollution are all annonymised by the remote nature of our collective society (wow - that sounded like a serious sentence!).  What I mean is that you do things like that and they add to the air pollution that I endure - and vice versa. But it's not visible as a personal act on your part to inflict pollution on me.  And no, just because it's annonyous doen't make it right.

But when you sit at the next table to me in a cafe and inflict your smoke onto me - then it all gets a bit more personal and I know who to point the finger at. I have someone to blame.

I should also tell you that I used to be a smoker (for a short time only and not very heavy) and it's us "born-again non-smokers" who always seem to end up having the strongest anti-smoking voices.

Tinkie - I'm just new on this site and this is my first forum post.  As I become better acquaited with the site and glocals I can't guarantee that my self restraint will hold..:P.

S99

The text you are quoting:
Ah Isa - you know that's impossible for me to say, truthfully!  I have driven my car in Geneva (although i'm in a temporary green phase now without car and reliant on public transport).  And I do see your point.  And there is a kind of hypocracy in the fact that our car driving, electricity using etc activities that do cause pollution are all annonymised by the remote nature of our collective society (wow - that sounded like a serious sentence!).  What I mean is that you do things like that and they add to the air pollution that I endure - and vice versa. But it's not visible as a personal act on your part to inflict pollution on me.  And no, just because it's annonyous doen't make it right.

But when you sit at the next table to me in a cafe and inflict your smoke onto me - then it all gets a bit more personal and I know who to point the finger at. I have someone to blame.

I should also tell you that I used to be a smoker (for a short time only and not very heavy) and it's us "born-again non-smokers" who always seem to end up having the strongest anti-smoking voices.

Tinkie - I'm just new on this site and this is my first forum post.  As I become better acquaited with the site and glocals I can't guarantee that my self restraint will hold..:P.

S99
S99_Geneva, Oct 2, 2008 @ 14:56

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Post 32
hi isa,

i also understand your point of view...but as you say it is more of a smell/inconvenience issue rather than cancer ...but let's not deny the passive smoke issue either...

smoking is an addiction....and its clear that cigarettes have a certain control over your life....i'm an ex smoker (as opposed to a non-smoker)....and one can pick up smoking all over again just with that one cigarette....the thing that bohered me the most was that cigarettes controlled my behaviour as any addiction does....

even tinkie can develop an addiction to applying sunscreen on beautiful men :-)

Enjoy!

The text you are quoting:
hi isa,

i also understand your point of view...but as you say it is more of a smell/inconvenience issue rather than cancer ...but let's not deny the passive smoke issue either...

smoking is an addiction....and its clear that cigarettes have a certain control over your life....i'm an ex smoker (as opposed to a non-smoker)....and one can pick up smoking all over again just with that one cigarette....the thing that bohered me the most was that cigarettes controlled my behaviour as any addiction does....

even tinkie can develop an addiction to applying sunscreen on beautiful men :-)

Enjoy!
divagirl, Oct 2, 2008 @ 16:06

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Post 33
geneva politicians didn't CHANGE their minds, they ommitted to follow the legal procedures .. a law has to be voted .. it is a temporary overturn, but it will be back in place soon ..what i like most is smokers who don't smoke in front of their own kids, but do in front of yours .. oups .. did that just add oil ? lol ..



as the saying goes .. *sex was so good, even the neighbours had a cigarette* .. lol ..
The text you are quoting:
geneva politicians didn't CHANGE their minds, they ommitted to follow the legal procedures .. a law has to be voted .. it is a temporary overturn, but it will be back in place soon ..what i like most is smokers who don't smoke in front of their own kids, but do in front of yours .. oups .. did that just add oil ? lol ..



as the saying goes .. *sex was so good, even the neighbours had a cigarette* .. lol ..
atoll, Oct 2, 2008 @ 17:24
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Post 34
Isa, I have the perfect solution for you and your nicotine addiction in case the smoking ban strikes again - you should do like the Swedish smokers did when the smoking ban got introduced 2 years ago, and switch to SNUS!

It's great - no one will bug you with forced coughs and angry looks when you put a snus under your lip. In fact, you'll be able to get all nicotined up and no one will even give a crap, unless you spit it out on the floor/wall/ceiling/table in front of you.

Also, it's less bad for you than cigarettes yet at the same time highly addictive. So, in a way you'd get the best of two worlds. Plus, you could start a snus-trend among the Glocals members, then be the first one to start importing snus-ash trays (yes, we have them in Sweden; they look like little astronaut helmets, very cute), sell them to all the bars in town and then get filthy rich!



Well, that's just a suggestion.



PS: I would think twice about bringing my snus to a date though. At least if smiling and kisses were expected to be involved.



PSII: You may also want to think twice about starting your new addiction while in Africa. I don't know if they have any punishments for the usage of snus where you are, but given what you said about smoking, maybe you'd get your hand chopped off or something.
The text you are quoting:
Isa, I have the perfect solution for you and your nicotine addiction in case the smoking ban strikes again - you should do like the Swedish smokers did when the smoking ban got introduced 2 years ago, and switch to SNUS!

It's great - no one will bug you with forced coughs and angry looks when you put a snus under your lip. In fact, you'll be able to get all nicotined up and no one will even give a crap, unless you spit it out on the floor/wall/ceiling/table in front of you.

Also, it's less bad for you than cigarettes yet at the same time highly addictive. So, in a way you'd get the best of two worlds. Plus, you could start a snus-trend among the Glocals members, then be the first one to start importing snus-ash trays (yes, we have them in Sweden; they look like little astronaut helmets, very cute), sell them to all the bars in town and then get filthy rich!



Well, that's just a suggestion.



PS: I would think twice about bringing my snus to a date though. At least if smiling and kisses were expected to be involved.



PSII: You may also want to think twice about starting your new addiction while in Africa. I don't know if they have any punishments for the usage of snus where you are, but given what you said about smoking, maybe you'd get your hand chopped off or something.
charlotta, Oct 2, 2008 @ 17:43
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Post 35
Snus...



Boy, are the effects powerful! Slower than the snuff, but I can barely stand under snus!



Wooohooo! Isa, if you can without seeing yourself court-martialed, you should try.



We should have a snus evening once (Hayes - Still up for it?)



My opinion for all that scam: the next law should have more nuancies, so that everybody is satisfied (non-smokers as well as nicotinomaniacs, Sunday smokers or cigar conoisseurs)



Syd.



PS: Funny that such a local subject has so much reaction compared to the global economy shaking like it is right now...
The text you are quoting:
Snus...



Boy, are the effects powerful! Slower than the snuff, but I can barely stand under snus!



Wooohooo! Isa, if you can without seeing yourself court-martialed, you should try.



We should have a snus evening once (Hayes - Still up for it?)



My opinion for all that scam: the next law should have more nuancies, so that everybody is satisfied (non-smokers as well as nicotinomaniacs, Sunday smokers or cigar conoisseurs)



Syd.



PS: Funny that such a local subject has so much reaction compared to the global economy shaking like it is right now...

Syd_Brown, Oct 2, 2008 @ 17:54
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Post 36
I never quite understood why a sophisticated country (well, ok, at least one that gave us pretty blondes, Abba and IKEA) stooped to such a filthy habit as snus.  So thanks Charlotta, if it catches on in Geneva we'll all know who to blame.  :)

And the kissing business sounds like a real passion killer....

S99

The text you are quoting:
I never quite understood why a sophisticated country (well, ok, at least one that gave us pretty blondes, Abba and IKEA) stooped to such a filthy habit as snus.  So thanks Charlotta, if it catches on in Geneva we'll all know who to blame.  :)

And the kissing business sounds like a real passion killer....

S99
S99_Geneva, Oct 2, 2008 @ 18:12

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Post 37
It's because you need something like Snus when you've tried to assemble Ikea furniture (after Gorgeous blondes and listening to Abba too)



;)



Syd.
The text you are quoting:
It's because you need something like Snus when you've tried to assemble Ikea furniture (after Gorgeous blondes and listening to Abba too)



;)



Syd.

Syd_Brown, Oct 2, 2008 @ 18:19
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Post 38
So, S99: 'blondes, Ikea and Abba' is your idea of sophistication, is it? Interesting....



Actually, I think you'd be surprised by the number of snusing blondes you'll find in Sweden. Oh yes, Sweden is one of the most gender equal countries in the world!



There is a deeper lying aspect to the SWedes' addicton to snus than you might think: you see, all SWedes are born with an deep lying sense of guilt that gets reflected in everything we do to ourselves and others. And since we all know what the consequences of smoking are, snus is a safer alternative - we get to be nicotine addicts without actually having to feel guilty about affecting the health of ourselves and others. Is that not sophistication, or what?



(Also, it's an old tradition.)
The text you are quoting:
So, S99: 'blondes, Ikea and Abba' is your idea of sophistication, is it? Interesting....



Actually, I think you'd be surprised by the number of snusing blondes you'll find in Sweden. Oh yes, Sweden is one of the most gender equal countries in the world!



There is a deeper lying aspect to the SWedes' addicton to snus than you might think: you see, all SWedes are born with an deep lying sense of guilt that gets reflected in everything we do to ourselves and others. And since we all know what the consequences of smoking are, snus is a safer alternative - we get to be nicotine addicts without actually having to feel guilty about affecting the health of ourselves and others. Is that not sophistication, or what?



(Also, it's an old tradition.)
charlotta, Oct 2, 2008 @ 19:19
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Post 39
Charlotta - If you read my post again, I think you'll find that I was using "blondes, Abba and IKEA" as an alternative to sophistication rather than a definition of it.  And while I'm at it, there's nothing sophisticated about a country where you have to buy alcohol at a state-run shop that is closed on a Sunday. 

However, it may surprise you to know that I do like the country - my daughter lives in Stockholm and I was there only last weekend. 

But you have spoiled my day by telling me that a lot of the blondes i was admiring at the weekend were actually snusers.........  I'm gutted.

S99

The text you are quoting:
Charlotta - If you read my post again, I think you'll find that I was using "blondes, Abba and IKEA" as an alternative to sophistication rather than a definition of it.  And while I'm at it, there's nothing sophisticated about a country where you have to buy alcohol at a state-run shop that is closed on a Sunday. 

However, it may surprise you to know that I do like the country - my daughter lives in Stockholm and I was there only last weekend. 

But you have spoiled my day by telling me that a lot of the blondes i was admiring at the weekend were actually snusers.........  I'm gutted.

S99
S99_Geneva, Oct 2, 2008 @ 19:46

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Post 40
Dear Isa,



I have no experience of snus after mind-blowing sex (though I would love to try it under snus - how psychedelic would that be)



Oh, but! When I come to think about it... I have no idea of what is mind blowing sex: I'm still on chapter 3 of "satisfactory intercourse for dummies" (You cannot imagine how complicated these figures are).



;)



Syd.
The text you are quoting:
Dear Isa,



I have no experience of snus after mind-blowing sex (though I would love to try it under snus - how psychedelic would that be)



Oh, but! When I come to think about it... I have no idea of what is mind blowing sex: I'm still on chapter 3 of "satisfactory intercourse for dummies" (You cannot imagine how complicated these figures are).



;)



Syd.
Syd_Brown, Oct 3, 2008 @ 11:31
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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 41
Dear Des',



You have to know that this is the Masculine version of the book, because we're real dummies!



;)
The text you are quoting:
Dear Des',



You have to know that this is the Masculine version of the book, because we're real dummies!



;)
Syd_Brown, Oct 3, 2008 @ 12:11
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Post 42

I doubt the ban made even a dent in Geneva smokers' habits; people are so into their ciggies here it's like a collective mental illness!  And anyway, there's a easy response  - put the tax up.  Cigarettes are ridiculously, criminally cheap here, which is why so many young kids smoke.  Whack the price up to CHF20 a packet, I say, and watch the money roll in - the canton might even be able to pay its own debts for a change.  Even a price-hike that steep takes a few years to filter through (no pun intended) to the ciggie-monsters and thin their ranks. 

The only thing more farcical and sad about this whole debacle than the terminally selfish smokers who have fallen over themselves to light up indoors this week is the astounding incompetence that resulted in the ban's reversal.  Since moving here 5 years ago, I've been deeply puzzled by Switzerland's reputation abroad for efficiency, as public transport aside, sloth and incompetence, particularly in the service industries, is just as often the order of the day.  I'd always assumed the efficiency myth was due to CH being next to France and Italy - yet both these neighbours have managed to quickly and efficiently implement and enforce comprehensive smoking bans.  I see that India has this week successfully enacted a nation-wide smoking ban! Why are the Swiss not mortified and furious that their government has not yet summoned up sufficient concern about taxpayer health to do likewise?   

The text you are quoting:

I doubt the ban made even a dent in Geneva smokers' habits; people are so into their ciggies here it's like a collective mental illness!  And anyway, there's a easy response  - put the tax up.  Cigarettes are ridiculously, criminally cheap here, which is why so many young kids smoke.  Whack the price up to CHF20 a packet, I say, and watch the money roll in - the canton might even be able to pay its own debts for a change.  Even a price-hike that steep takes a few years to filter through (no pun intended) to the ciggie-monsters and thin their ranks. 

The only thing more farcical and sad about this whole debacle than the terminally selfish smokers who have fallen over themselves to light up indoors this week is the astounding incompetence that resulted in the ban's reversal.  Since moving here 5 years ago, I've been deeply puzzled by Switzerland's reputation abroad for efficiency, as public transport aside, sloth and incompetence, particularly in the service industries, is just as often the order of the day.  I'd always assumed the efficiency myth was due to CH being next to France and Italy - yet both these neighbours have managed to quickly and efficiently implement and enforce comprehensive smoking bans.  I see that India has this week successfully enacted a nation-wide smoking ban! Why are the Swiss not mortified and furious that their government has not yet summoned up sufficient concern about taxpayer health to do likewise?   
Bella98, Oct 3, 2008 @ 13:11

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Post 43
"Charlotta - If you read my post again, I think you'll find that I was using "blondes, Abba and IKEA" as an alternative to sophistication rather than a definition of it."



Nah, I've read your post again, and I still interpret it the same way.





"And while I'm at it, there's nothing sophisticated about a country where you have to buy alcohol at a state-run shop that is closed on a Sunday."



Oh, you mean as opposed to a country where ALL shops are closed on Sundays? :) Although I do agree with you that the state monopoly on alcohol needs to be abolished.





"But you have spoiled my day by telling me that a lot of the blondes i was admiring at the weekend were actually snusers......... I'm gutted."



Did I say "a lot of"? Because I meant all of them.



Going to Stockholm soon; might bring back a suitcase of snus and start up a dealing business. If you want me I'll be hanging around outside l'usine after sunset with my pockets full of Göteborgs rapé. I'll give you a good deal if you can prove that you're a Glocals member...
The text you are quoting:
"Charlotta - If you read my post again, I think you'll find that I was using "blondes, Abba and IKEA" as an alternative to sophistication rather than a definition of it."



Nah, I've read your post again, and I still interpret it the same way.





"And while I'm at it, there's nothing sophisticated about a country where you have to buy alcohol at a state-run shop that is closed on a Sunday."



Oh, you mean as opposed to a country where ALL shops are closed on Sundays? :) Although I do agree with you that the state monopoly on alcohol needs to be abolished.





"But you have spoiled my day by telling me that a lot of the blondes i was admiring at the weekend were actually snusers......... I'm gutted."



Did I say "a lot of"? Because I meant all of them.



Going to Stockholm soon; might bring back a suitcase of snus and start up a dealing business. If you want me I'll be hanging around outside l'usine after sunset with my pockets full of Göteborgs rapé. I'll give you a good deal if you can prove that you're a Glocals member...
charlotta, Oct 3, 2008 @ 13:15
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Post 44
[quote]

Going to Stockholm soon; might bring back a suitcase of snus and start up a dealing business. If you want me I'll be hanging around outside l'usine after sunset with my pockets full of Göteborgs rapé. I'll give you a good deal if you can prove that you're a Glocals member...[/quote]



Hey, I'll be flying to Sweden next week, and I also planned to bring some snus back. Instead to set up a street war for the genevan snus supremacy, I suggest that we split the territories in a peaceful way...



;)
The text you are quoting:
[quote]

Going to Stockholm soon; might bring back a suitcase of snus and start up a dealing business. If you want me I'll be hanging around outside l'usine after sunset with my pockets full of Göteborgs rapé. I'll give you a good deal if you can prove that you're a Glocals member...[/quote]



Hey, I'll be flying to Sweden next week, and I also planned to bring some snus back. Instead to set up a street war for the genevan snus supremacy, I suggest that we split the territories in a peaceful way...



;)

Syd_Brown, Oct 3, 2008 @ 13:23
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Post 45
In London we've had the ban now for about 18 months, and I don't think many of us would want to go back to how it was before. It already seems very old-fashioned indeed to think of smoking being allowed indoors in public places. I'm glad not to go home with smoky clothes and hair, I think everyone agrees it's not even inconvenient to have

However I do have a problem with the way the legislation was sold to us as being about protecting people from passive smoking. I appreciate the German statistic that someone posted before, but the article linked to didn't specify how many of these deaths were of people who lived with smokers. I'd be surprised if it isn't the vast majority. It's very hard to argue that the sort of passive smoking that would come from going to the pub for an hour or two is significantly more of a risk than walking down a city street; but you don't see them banning cars.

I think what it's really about is trying to stop people from smoking. Of course you can't criticise efforts to stop people smoking, but I get the feeling that legislation like this is being sold to us in this other way because they don't want to have to address the question of banning tobacco. Huge vested interests, obviously. But there's something quite sneaky about this, like an attempt to impose a nannying control over people whilst being unable to be honest about it because it will upset businesses.

for the record I am in favour of legalising all drugs, so wouldn't want to see tobacco banned. And i think in situations like a home with children in, perhaps they should be protected by law, because I think it's far clearer that living with a smoker is a risk to kids.

But I wouldn't have a problem with a landlord of a pub being allowed to set aside a specific room for smokers, if he so wished, a room in which bar staff did not have to stand for any long period of time. Because then people could vote with their feet. If you, as people say above, want to go somewhere without that, you can. And then pubs with a smokers' area will lose business and close.

As I say, I'm glad of the ban in London and will be happy if it comes back here, just because it does seem very odd nowadays to smoke inside and it's more pleasant for everyone. But I think telling us this is essential to protect our health is laughable. And I wish people would just admit that they actually despise smokers and their weakness and addiction, rather than claiming some kind of moral high ground about health (and then driving a car).

The text you are quoting:
In London we've had the ban now for about 18 months, and I don't think many of us would want to go back to how it was before. It already seems very old-fashioned indeed to think of smoking being allowed indoors in public places. I'm glad not to go home with smoky clothes and hair, I think everyone agrees it's not even inconvenient to have

However I do have a problem with the way the legislation was sold to us as being about protecting people from passive smoking. I appreciate the German statistic that someone posted before, but the article linked to didn't specify how many of these deaths were of people who lived with smokers. I'd be surprised if it isn't the vast majority. It's very hard to argue that the sort of passive smoking that would come from going to the pub for an hour or two is significantly more of a risk than walking down a city street; but you don't see them banning cars.

I think what it's really about is trying to stop people from smoking. Of course you can't criticise efforts to stop people smoking, but I get the feeling that legislation like this is being sold to us in this other way because they don't want to have to address the question of banning tobacco. Huge vested interests, obviously. But there's something quite sneaky about this, like an attempt to impose a nannying control over people whilst being unable to be honest about it because it will upset businesses.

for the record I am in favour of legalising all drugs, so wouldn't want to see tobacco banned. And i think in situations like a home with children in, perhaps they should be protected by law, because I think it's far clearer that living with a smoker is a risk to kids.

But I wouldn't have a problem with a landlord of a pub being allowed to set aside a specific room for smokers, if he so wished, a room in which bar staff did not have to stand for any long period of time. Because then people could vote with their feet. If you, as people say above, want to go somewhere without that, you can. And then pubs with a smokers' area will lose business and close.

As I say, I'm glad of the ban in London and will be happy if it comes back here, just because it does seem very odd nowadays to smoke inside and it's more pleasant for everyone. But I think telling us this is essential to protect our health is laughable. And I wish people would just admit that they actually despise smokers and their weakness and addiction, rather than claiming some kind of moral high ground about health (and then driving a car).
Sansa, Oct 3, 2008 @ 14:21

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Post 46
Charlotta:  "Nah, I've read your post again, and I still interpret it the same way."

I'm sorry that your otherwise excellent command of the english language isn't quite up to interpreting its subtleties.

Bella (who gave the idea) / Charlotta (as the target of my anti-Sweden rhetoric): Putting the price up sounds like a good idea, and I support that.  And again maybe it's just Sweden, but despite alcohol being expensive there, there's more piles of stale vomit on the sidewalks of Stockholm on a Friday night than anywhere I know. 

Charlotta: Ok, you win, I'll never look at any Swedish beauty in quite the same light.  So it's ok Syd, I don't need the book for my next trip to Stockholm.....  :crying:

S99

 

 

The text you are quoting:
Charlotta:  "Nah, I've read your post again, and I still interpret it the same way."

I'm sorry that your otherwise excellent command of the english language isn't quite up to interpreting its subtleties.

Bella (who gave the idea) / Charlotta (as the target of my anti-Sweden rhetoric): Putting the price up sounds like a good idea, and I support that.  And again maybe it's just Sweden, but despite alcohol being expensive there, there's more piles of stale vomit on the sidewalks of Stockholm on a Friday night than anywhere I know. 

Charlotta: Ok, you win, I'll never look at any Swedish beauty in quite the same light.  So it's ok Syd, I don't need the book for my next trip to Stockholm.....  :crying:

S99

 

 
S99_Geneva, Oct 3, 2008 @ 14:23

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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 47
Seriously, I can not see why there is such a fuzz about banning smoking in public in-door places - it is not a question of prohibiting the use of nicotin. There are alternatives available to the nicotin addicts, snuff (already mentioned), nicotin chewing gums, nicotin patches, nicotin sweets etc.

But it is true that these alternatives do not satisfy the immature needs of a comforter.........  And I think that if we had a chance to ask Freud, he would have had a very strong opinion about the reason to the urge to smoke.........

Now, in the new situation in Geneva (back to as it was before), it is up to the owner of the place to decide whether he allows smoking or not - not the smoker! And some owners have alredy declared that they are going to keep the ban.

And the watered down new federal law prohibits smoking in places larger than 80sqm, and leaves it to the owner of smaller places to decide. But the cantons can legislate for stronger restrictions. http://www.parlament.ch/sites/doc/CuriaFolgeseite/2004/20040476/Texte%20pour%20le%20vote%20final%20NS%20F.pdf

Haegar

The text you are quoting:
Seriously, I can not see why there is such a fuzz about banning smoking in public in-door places - it is not a question of prohibiting the use of nicotin. There are alternatives available to the nicotin addicts, snuff (already mentioned), nicotin chewing gums, nicotin patches, nicotin sweets etc.

But it is true that these alternatives do not satisfy the immature needs of a comforter.........  And I think that if we had a chance to ask Freud, he would have had a very strong opinion about the reason to the urge to smoke.........

Now, in the new situation in Geneva (back to as it was before), it is up to the owner of the place to decide whether he allows smoking or not - not the smoker! And some owners have alredy declared that they are going to keep the ban.

And the watered down new federal law prohibits smoking in places larger than 80sqm, and leaves it to the owner of smaller places to decide. But the cantons can legislate for stronger restrictions. http://www.parlament.ch/sites/doc/CuriaFolgeseite/2004/20040476/Texte%20pour%20le%20vote%20final%20NS%20F.pdf

Haegar
haegar, Oct 3, 2008 @ 14:43

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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 48

OK EVERYONE!!

Shakers is staying SMOKE FREE!! Party on tonite!!

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OK EVERYONE!!

Shakers is staying SMOKE FREE!! Party on tonite!!
Mr_Shakers, Oct 3, 2008 @ 14:55

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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 49
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Bella98, Oct 3, 2008 @ 16:28
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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 50
There is no snus in Geneva, I  searched for it in all the tabacco shops, anyone who wants it will have to order it from Sweden on the internet!

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There is no snus in Geneva, I  searched for it in all the tabacco shops, anyone who wants it will have to order it from Sweden on the internet!


Karen11, Oct 3, 2008 @ 17:59

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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 51
Karen,

Here you have the website: http://swedishsnus.com/RW/start.asp :)

Haegar

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Karen,

Here you have the website: http://swedishsnus.com/RW/start.asp :)

Haegar
haegar, Oct 3, 2008 @ 18:14

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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 52
[quote]There is no snus in Geneva, I searched for it in all the tabacco shops, anyone who wants it will have to order it from Sweden on the internet!



[/quote]



Well, that's why Syd_brown and I are getting into the snus-dealing business.



Syd: You're right, street wars are so 2007. Let's divide the city between us. I suggest you take the north side of the river and I'll take the south side. Since this means that you get the red light district, I also get Hayes.



To get back to the subject of smoking bans: I agree with Bella that the price of cigarettes in this country is way too low, and kind of reflects a general attitude towards smoking that is far more relaxed than in the other European countries I've been to. When I first moved here (which is about 10 months ago) this was one of the things I found most striking about Geneva. It really burst my illusion of Switzerland as a clean and healthy country...



Coming from a country where the smoking ban was accompanied by a rather massive and long running anti-smoking campaign and where the ban itself was seen as something positive by nonsmokers and smokers alike (a lot of smokers saw this as the perfect opportunity to quit), I was astonished by how the dangers of smoking somehow hasn't reached to this otherwise advanced country. The difference from how it's seen in Sweden is just so big.

Don't get me wrong here: I have nothing against smokers as such, and I'm not pretending like I'm 'morally superior' to people who smoke just because I don't (I used to be a social smoker myself until 4 years ago). All I'm saying is that I think that Switzerland needs to deal with the whole issue of smoking/passive smoking in a more efficient way than they are doing now if they actually want to decrease the number of smoke related illnesses in this country (though I heard somewhere that a smoking ban might actually end up costing society more in the long run since people's life expectancy would go up and there would consequently be a lot more old people to take care of in the future...).

Something I'm wondering about is: are there no smokers on this forum who want to quit but who have found this difficult because of the smoky environment in bars/cafés/restaurants, and who feel that they were being helped by the smoking ban? This was my biggest problem as a social smoker - I found it really hard not to smoke when everyone around me did.



I also have to say that I don't understand where the talk about climate change awareness fits into this discussion, because it has nothing what so ever to do with whether you enjoy being in a smoky room or not.
The text you are quoting:
[quote]There is no snus in Geneva, I searched for it in all the tabacco shops, anyone who wants it will have to order it from Sweden on the internet!



[/quote]



Well, that's why Syd_brown and I are getting into the snus-dealing business.



Syd: You're right, street wars are so 2007. Let's divide the city between us. I suggest you take the north side of the river and I'll take the south side. Since this means that you get the red light district, I also get Hayes.



To get back to the subject of smoking bans: I agree with Bella that the price of cigarettes in this country is way too low, and kind of reflects a general attitude towards smoking that is far more relaxed than in the other European countries I've been to. When I first moved here (which is about 10 months ago) this was one of the things I found most striking about Geneva. It really burst my illusion of Switzerland as a clean and healthy country...



Coming from a country where the smoking ban was accompanied by a rather massive and long running anti-smoking campaign and where the ban itself was seen as something positive by nonsmokers and smokers alike (a lot of smokers saw this as the perfect opportunity to quit), I was astonished by how the dangers of smoking somehow hasn't reached to this otherwise advanced country. The difference from how it's seen in Sweden is just so big.

Don't get me wrong here: I have nothing against smokers as such, and I'm not pretending like I'm 'morally superior' to people who smoke just because I don't (I used to be a social smoker myself until 4 years ago). All I'm saying is that I think that Switzerland needs to deal with the whole issue of smoking/passive smoking in a more efficient way than they are doing now if they actually want to decrease the number of smoke related illnesses in this country (though I heard somewhere that a smoking ban might actually end up costing society more in the long run since people's life expectancy would go up and there would consequently be a lot more old people to take care of in the future...).

Something I'm wondering about is: are there no smokers on this forum who want to quit but who have found this difficult because of the smoky environment in bars/cafés/restaurants, and who feel that they were being helped by the smoking ban? This was my biggest problem as a social smoker - I found it really hard not to smoke when everyone around me did.



I also have to say that I don't understand where the talk about climate change awareness fits into this discussion, because it has nothing what so ever to do with whether you enjoy being in a smoky room or not.
charlotta, Oct 3, 2008 @ 19:05
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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 53


Oh no, Haegar, you're ruining my business!
The text you are quoting:


Oh no, Haegar, you're ruining my business!
charlotta, Oct 3, 2008 @ 19:06
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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 54

What makes you think that pollution from cigarettes is unique in being able to be seen and smelt?

It is simply not correct to say that our polluted air is always odourless, that other forms of air pollution cannot be seen and smelt!

It is also not the case that everyone puts their head in the sand and carries on as usual, that nobody is doing anything about minimising/reducing pollution.

I also categorically fail to see what empowering individuals, for the sake of their individual pleasure, with the ability to impose a negative impact on the health of those around them... has to do with other forms of (individual / mass / industrial....) pollution?? Because we accept one form of pollution, we must accept all forms?

If you want to smoke, then smoke. But the consequences, if you do it in public places, are not purely for you to bear. And if others are saying they refuse to inhale your pollution, then you have the option to desist / smoke elsewhere... Or you think that the health/smell/odour-concerned affected should be obliged to stay out of your way in public places, or suffer the consequences of your vices?

The text you are quoting:

What makes you think that pollution from cigarettes is unique in being able to be seen and smelt?

It is simply not correct to say that our polluted air is always odourless, that other forms of air pollution cannot be seen and smelt!

It is also not the case that everyone puts their head in the sand and carries on as usual, that nobody is doing anything about minimising/reducing pollution.

I also categorically fail to see what empowering individuals, for the sake of their individual pleasure, with the ability to impose a negative impact on the health of those around them... has to do with other forms of (individual / mass / industrial....) pollution?? Because we accept one form of pollution, we must accept all forms?

If you want to smoke, then smoke. But the consequences, if you do it in public places, are not purely for you to bear. And if others are saying they refuse to inhale your pollution, then you have the option to desist / smoke elsewhere... Or you think that the health/smell/odour-concerned affected should be obliged to stay out of your way in public places, or suffer the consequences of your vices?
SimSim, Oct 3, 2008 @ 23:46

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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 55
isa..

if it's any help...i went cold turkey...

mind over matter....anyone can stop if they really want to....

so good luck

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isa..

if it's any help...i went cold turkey...

mind over matter....anyone can stop if they really want to....

so good luck
divagirl, Oct 4, 2008 @ 14:44

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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 56
[quote]



I also categorically fail to see what empowering individuals, for the sake of their individual pleasure, with the ability to impose a negative impact on the health of those around them... has to do with other forms of (individual / mass / industrial....) pollution?? Because we accept one form of pollution, we must accept all forms?



[/quote]

Well put, SimSim, this is exactly what I meant!



There is no obligation or logic that says that just because you don't want to be in a smoky room you also have to avoid all other kinds of pollution. For a lot of people, it is the immediate discomfort that cigarette smoke causes that makes them feel so strongly about this subject (headaches, sore eyes and throats, bad smell etc). So the fact that we are exposed to a lot of different kinds of pollution at all times has nothing to do with it.



Also, most of the pollution we inhale cannot be avoided unless you choose to wear a masque every time you leave the house, but this is one that can be avoided by not allowing people to smoke inside. So I think that if you're worried about inhaling pollution in general, it makes more sense to avoid one sort than not avoiding any. See what I mean? It's not an either-or situation, it's rather a question of minimising the health risks.



Anyway, good luck with your going cold turkey, Isa! I bet you'll be less tempted to pick up a cigarette if you're not surrounded by smoking people...;)
The text you are quoting:
[quote]



I also categorically fail to see what empowering individuals, for the sake of their individual pleasure, with the ability to impose a negative impact on the health of those around them... has to do with other forms of (individual / mass / industrial....) pollution?? Because we accept one form of pollution, we must accept all forms?



[/quote]

Well put, SimSim, this is exactly what I meant!



There is no obligation or logic that says that just because you don't want to be in a smoky room you also have to avoid all other kinds of pollution. For a lot of people, it is the immediate discomfort that cigarette smoke causes that makes them feel so strongly about this subject (headaches, sore eyes and throats, bad smell etc). So the fact that we are exposed to a lot of different kinds of pollution at all times has nothing to do with it.



Also, most of the pollution we inhale cannot be avoided unless you choose to wear a masque every time you leave the house, but this is one that can be avoided by not allowing people to smoke inside. So I think that if you're worried about inhaling pollution in general, it makes more sense to avoid one sort than not avoiding any. See what I mean? It's not an either-or situation, it's rather a question of minimising the health risks.



Anyway, good luck with your going cold turkey, Isa! I bet you'll be less tempted to pick up a cigarette if you're not surrounded by smoking people...;)
charlotta, Oct 4, 2008 @ 15:30
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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 57
Check under 'Member Activities Reviewed'. I have started a new topic titled:

'WARNING LIST of activities and Events organised at SMOKING venues'

:):):)

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Check under 'Member Activities Reviewed'. I have started a new topic titled:

'WARNING LIST of activities and Events organised at SMOKING venues'

:):):)
haegar, Oct 6, 2008 @ 14:10

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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 58
Charlotte, I so agree that the focus on the-ban-that-wasn't on passive smoking rather than the vile practise itself is baffling and very backward.  I'm from New Zealand, where smoking has been ruthlessly attacked over the last 10 years via a mix of government action and public opinion.  Government measures include a ban on domestic tobacco production, an extensive smoking ban with no exceptions other than private homes, cars and outdoor spaces; a 400% tax on cigarettes (which cost over 20chf a packet); government support for stop-smoking programmes and a relentless ad campaign.  The result?  Smokers are heading toward extinction - down to 15% of the adult population and dropping every year.  Lighting up in a public place is now regarded with pretty much the  same revulsion as taking a dump in public would be. 

The difference between the NZ campaign and the feeble efforts made here is that with the NZ approach, smokers are the real target.  The government, with massive public support, wants to stop them dying earlier, being sicker for longer and impacting the economy in two ways - as a drain on public health resources and as a brake on productivity with their more frequent absences from work.  Smoking also takes money out of the pockets of families who can ill-afford it.  In short, there is a clear recognition that smoking benefits no-one except the (foreign) companies who produce and market cigarettes. 

Perhaps such a concerted government action couldn't be undertaken in Switzerland's decentralised system.  Perhaps the federal government thinks that Switzerland, or rather the taxpayer, can afford to go on paying gibongus health insurance premiums which no doubt are in part so high because of the impact of smoking related illnesses.  Perhaps the government thinks the economy is so sound that having a substantial proportion of sicker citizens/residents/workers who die early is just the price you pay for keeping restaurant owners happy.   

I think that if people want to smoke, that's their decision, albeit a stupid one.  But I would hope that anyone who has even a small amount of respect for their fellows would be pleased to keep their smoke out of public places.  There are plenty of considerate, polite smokers in NZ who would no more light up in the middle of a pub or restaurant than they would have a pee in the same place, because they know how disgusting, offensive and aggressive such an action is to other people.  I don't understand why Switzerland, in so many respects such a model country, seems to be so full of people who could not give  a flying f*ck about anyone but themselves when it comes to sticking a cigarette in their mouths. The Federal government's shocking abdication of responsibility for this serious public health issue must be to blame.    

The text you are quoting:
Charlotte, I so agree that the focus on the-ban-that-wasn't on passive smoking rather than the vile practise itself is baffling and very backward.  I'm from New Zealand, where smoking has been ruthlessly attacked over the last 10 years via a mix of government action and public opinion.  Government measures include a ban on domestic tobacco production, an extensive smoking ban with no exceptions other than private homes, cars and outdoor spaces; a 400% tax on cigarettes (which cost over 20chf a packet); government support for stop-smoking programmes and a relentless ad campaign.  The result?  Smokers are heading toward extinction - down to 15% of the adult population and dropping every year.  Lighting up in a public place is now regarded with pretty much the  same revulsion as taking a dump in public would be. 

The difference between the NZ campaign and the feeble efforts made here is that with the NZ approach, smokers are the real target.  The government, with massive public support, wants to stop them dying earlier, being sicker for longer and impacting the economy in two ways - as a drain on public health resources and as a brake on productivity with their more frequent absences from work.  Smoking also takes money out of the pockets of families who can ill-afford it.  In short, there is a clear recognition that smoking benefits no-one except the (foreign) companies who produce and market cigarettes. 

Perhaps such a concerted government action couldn't be undertaken in Switzerland's decentralised system.  Perhaps the federal government thinks that Switzerland, or rather the taxpayer, can afford to go on paying gibongus health insurance premiums which no doubt are in part so high because of the impact of smoking related illnesses.  Perhaps the government thinks the economy is so sound that having a substantial proportion of sicker citizens/residents/workers who die early is just the price you pay for keeping restaurant owners happy.   

I think that if people want to smoke, that's their decision, albeit a stupid one.  But I would hope that anyone who has even a small amount of respect for their fellows would be pleased to keep their smoke out of public places.  There are plenty of considerate, polite smokers in NZ who would no more light up in the middle of a pub or restaurant than they would have a pee in the same place, because they know how disgusting, offensive and aggressive such an action is to other people.  I don't understand why Switzerland, in so many respects such a model country, seems to be so full of people who could not give  a flying f*ck about anyone but themselves when it comes to sticking a cigarette in their mouths. The Federal government's shocking abdication of responsibility for this serious public health issue must be to blame.    
Bella98, Oct 6, 2008 @ 14:21

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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 59
Yes Bella, I've been a lot in New Zealand and loved to go to bars to have beer, watch rugby, meet friends as it was "non smoking". I never goes in bars in Switzerland because of the cigarettes ! I agree to  your

"There are plenty of considerate, polite smokers in NZ who would no more light up in the middle of a pub or restaurant than they would have a pee in the same place, because they know how disgusting, offensive and aggressive such an action is to other people."

I'm a Swiss, from Geneva, so completly and really shocked with what happened. We were 80% to vote for this, don't forget it, that mean 4 people over 5, it's a lot. So my decision, like for most of my friends, is to boycott all restaurants which will allowed cigarettes again ! And in case somebody will smoke while I'm eating, I will start a "farts  competition" and see what happen :-) And don't forget that farting is not as bad for your health :-)

So friends, lets start "farting parties" in smoking restaurant, sure that all smokers will enjoy it as much as we enjoy being polluted with the smoke of a cigarette !

Enjoy your day and don't worry, smoking will be banned in restaurants & cie soon, because most people hate to "taste like a cigarette when coming back home" !

Enjoy watching this small video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9o7TWxGxs0

The text you are quoting:
Yes Bella, I've been a lot in New Zealand and loved to go to bars to have beer, watch rugby, meet friends as it was "non smoking". I never goes in bars in Switzerland because of the cigarettes ! I agree to  your

"There are plenty of considerate, polite smokers in NZ who would no more light up in the middle of a pub or restaurant than they would have a pee in the same place, because they know how disgusting, offensive and aggressive such an action is to other people."

I'm a Swiss, from Geneva, so completly and really shocked with what happened. We were 80% to vote for this, don't forget it, that mean 4 people over 5, it's a lot. So my decision, like for most of my friends, is to boycott all restaurants which will allowed cigarettes again ! And in case somebody will smoke while I'm eating, I will start a "farts  competition" and see what happen :-) And don't forget that farting is not as bad for your health :-)

So friends, lets start "farting parties" in smoking restaurant, sure that all smokers will enjoy it as much as we enjoy being polluted with the smoke of a cigarette !

Enjoy your day and don't worry, smoking will be banned in restaurants & cie soon, because most people hate to "taste like a cigarette when coming back home" !

Enjoy watching this small video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9o7TWxGxs0
nicoski, Oct 6, 2008 @ 17:46

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Re: Geneva's smoking ban overturned
Post 60
The ultimate weapon in the war against the smokers - the Farting Machine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LazXj9YrH1M&feature=related

:):):)

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The ultimate weapon in the war against the smokers - the Farting Machine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LazXj9YrH1M&feature=related

:):):)
haegar, Oct 6, 2008 @ 19:36

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