Thank you, Roman, so much for making this a public knowledge. To my opinion this organizer should be banned from Glocals. Unfortunately, I do not see him refunding our money back as he repeatedly refused to do so.

Mine and his correspondence:

----------< Anna R wrote @ Today, May 21, 13 15:21 >------------
"Organizer",
I saw that you have not selected the charity yet, so I would like to claim back the money, which were supposed to be for the lunch.
I look forward to your reply,
Anna

----------< "Organizer" wrote @ Today, May 21, 13 16:02 >------------
Dear Anna.

----------< Anna R wrote @ Today, May 21, >--------------------------------------

According to the itinerary you gave us, we were supposed to get lunch boxes and were not obliged to follow you for lunches. This means that it is YOU who changed the originally planned itinerary and  the one I paid for. This is a constructive criticism of the services that we originally promised but never provided.

Can I expect a refund?

Julian,
I have to talk to the others and see if it's OK to reveal the name. But shame definitely!

Rich,

Repsponse to me was one of the nicest. I hope others share their experiences with the organizer. Simply unbelievable.

Why would you hesitate to post the name if you know you haven't done anything wrong and why do you need permission from others? Just do it and don't forget to report to the admins.

Well I cannot speak for Anna R. But personally I just want people to get back monies from that trip for those services that the organizer failed to provide.  I want to personally avoid getting ripped off. It would give me no pleasure to burn this individual. Especially if there is an avenue for some type of mediation.

In an attempt to mediate, and because I felt the trip was excellent value (I checked the hotel rates at the time I booked, and the accommodation cost alone exceeded what the organiser was charging), I would be prepared to refund any monies out of my own pocket, if the people who feel they’ve been “scammed” come up with a reasonable figure outlining what monies they lost, why they lost money and the value that they place on that loss.  

I would rather do this, than see the money coming out of the charitable project that Alvaro is setting up in support of educational projects in third world countries.  

Please feel free to send me a personal email so that we can come to some amicable arrangement.

Thank you.

There is no charity. Said charity does not exist at this time.  An admission to this fact has already been made. He just took peoples money and kept it.

Furthermore, it appears that this individual went out of his way to create conditions where he would not have to provide the items he listed in his event posting and the subsequent emails to the attendees.  Seriously, do you think it is reasonable to expect attendees to travel 50km to a place that has no train service to collect a packed lunch, a train ticket or a boat ticket  that was promised to them?   Am I wrong? Did he actually buy all of the aforementioned and people just failed to get all of these items from him? Did he get stuck with a bunch unused train tickets, boat tickets and pile of wasted and uneaten sack lunches? 

Now I personally agree with you about the trip being a fair deal if it had only included accomodations. Not fantastic but fair. 

For me, this is about principle.  Claiming a charitiable gift to charity that does not legally exist in order to avoid giving a simple refund of monies not spent is pretty damn low. In the grand scheme of things each individual loss is insignificant (less than 100chf.) But for me the illlegitimate charitble gift claim is reprehensible and totally unacceptable. It's not something anyone agreed to nor had any foreknowledge of.  For me, the scam isn't really the items not provided and refunded for. It's the surprise forced charitable gift to a charity that does not legitimately exist that really has me upset.  

If you want to cover him. Well then that is your business. I will not deter you. Most people just want their money. 

Since Carolyn has already mentioned it, his name is Alvaro...

This sounds like buying a speaker system in which the half the speakers are missing, then the store saying no refunds, and offering to give you store credit...to a store that doesnt exist...and in the middle somewhere punching a poor african child in the face.

Before anything, this is criminal rather than a minor issue. The whole trust basis of almost everything that happens on here will mean nothing if people not only rip other people off, but then stoop to the level of claiming that the money can go to a charity which doesnt exist. This sounds like a highly untrustworthy person or someone so stubborn and little that they cant admit when they have screwed up. Things can and do go wrong but when you admit you are lying and carry on lying then, there is a big difference.

I'm a little pissed off mostly because charities have a hard enough time getting donations and coming across as legitimate without people doing things like this.

TBH I'm a little surprised no one from the glocals team has shown up...

There was a long string of emails between the alleged organizer and others. I think people simply gave up the hope of anything happening. I just simply want for him to be banned from this site, so he does get another chance to fool others...

Farzam,

You make the call. 

This is from a screenshot that I took because this organizer has consistently deleted any comments inquiring about services not delivered, monies to be refunded or said charity. 

Here's the current URL from the event.

http://www.glocals.com/things-to-do/lausanne/56617.htm

There are about 11 of us that are pretty peeved about the way this whole thing went down. And at least 5 that are adamant about getting monies refunded. I personally am peeved about the charity aspect. Because I come from a family that is big on charitiable giving. But maybe I am seeing it the wrong way. Maybe I am being subjective. So please let me know what you think of this recently deleted exchange.

Thanks.

It's also important to note that people have asked for refunds and transparency in the accounting. To this date neither has been offered.

But thankfully Carolyn has offered to cover the organizers trespasses. So at least some people might be made whole. For me it's the charity issue that is burning my bisquits. 

Very kind of Carolyn to offer, but were you (carolyn :) ) involved in the organisation and subsequent 'charity-gate', if not then again very kind of you to offer, but I feel the organiser is getting let off by your generosity.

And Roman, I'm sure dividing one number by the number of people screwed out of aforementioned money to find out each share, would take far far longer and cost much more than the donation...if your time is worth about 1000CHF a minute... 

I would be pretty p***ed if I was in this situation, and would not have been as courteous as a few of you have been and you rightly mention that when it comes down to it, it's the principle of the matter.

Farzam,

Carolyn is a living saint that tries to see the good in everyone she meets. Before this event she had never met Alvaro. 

Here's the kicker. He's a math teacher with a degree in theoretical physics.  

Make your own call. 

Haha thanks Roman, that will make sure I laugh my way through my sleep

The activities were not organized as promised, and me (and probably some other people) just did not feel like stressing myself and chasing Alvaro for refunds, but simply decided not to join his activities anymore. But here I must agree with Roman, bringing here the charity is really not decent.

To confirm what have already been told, the packed lunches were not organized. The transportation according to Option B was not organized. To get lunch people were supposed to follow Alvaro doing what was best for him, without considering what other people have chosen to do when joining the (paid!) trip out of suggested by him options. The boat trip mentioned in program was neither organized nor paid. This all would not be such a big deal, but the feeling that you are tricked and cheated were through entire trip.

Now, regarding refund, it was never mentioned by Alvaro, that any remaining money exist and that something was not delivered in full, before people started asking. No (obviously non-existing) charity was mentioned as well.

Hello,

This seems to indicate if I attend an event I pay for there is no guarantee that the

organiser will provide services advertised? So far I only attended events that did not require advance payment, it sounds its best to keep it that way, at least with organisers I dont know. The ones I have met have provided fantastic events, and seem unlikely to do this sort of thing, so its a shame this has happened because it can put off new members from joining potentially when they read about this. Thats not to say you should not have raised this issue, but that ideally this should not be an issue if possible in future.

Mark,

This situation is an anomaly.  I cannot be more concise than that.

Very smart of you, Roman, to take the screenshot. I should have done the same.

It is good to bring up this subject!

and aslo it is good to know the people who.....

It would be fascinating to hear Alvaro's version of all this....  Or to see the published itinerary with details of what went wrong.

I've met Alvaro & been on a couple of trips that he has organized in the past. All were great and there was no sense of anything being a "scam". Based on that I'm genuinely stunned that he is apparently being accused of fraud. Of course, not suggesting any of the participants are lying but just wondering if there is an alternate explanation...

Have a nice day ;-)

Did anyone download a copy of the google docs that Alvaro sent out?

I am currently locked out of the documents.

The important ones are the two spreadsheets, especially the one that indicates how much money he claimed to have retained from this trip and another previous trip.

The other one is this one. Which I think affirms what was actually promised in greater detail.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UbM6UdGgvHE2iGLKXygjF0qX9X5RUf0G_zZxJojwdcA/edit?usp=sharing

I thought that I had them. Apparently I don't. But I'll keep looking.

Kathy,

Send him a message.

Ask him if he if he kept other peoples money from the last trip for items he did not deliver on.

Ask him.

Roman - you're being too kind .  

I was simply trying to mediate as you suggested and bring some community spirit back into our community.

It seems to be sadly lacking on this thread. 

Hello,

I havz recently joind the trip to Milan and I was really disappointed and felt stolen from Alvaro who was supposed to provide 3 different activities including meals and boat tour as well as visit of Milan with monuments all included in the price. We had to organize ourselves as he just took 6 people with him for the via ferrata that he was doing the 15 other people didn't get any meal or any of what the activity was including. The dinner on satirdaynight was not typical just pizza shared dinner at minimum cost. He in hact took 6 school girls with him without advising anyone about this and just spent the weekend for his stuff: via ferrata, girlfriend and own thing. I was very disappointed and sure that he took money out of us as we paid 250chf for ony 1 dinner and 2 nights in a shared double room in a basic hotel. We tired to get refund and ask for real costs and we didn't get answers either refund, he just transformed our request into personal matters which was really not our intention!!!Some people just take advantage of nice people willing to meet new people and do new activities....

Roman, I've dowloaded both the word and the excel sheets but they do not state any costs, just the description of the services we were supposed to get. Alvaro blocked our access to Google Docs, that's why you can't access them.

I reuploaded them

Comment by site admin:
Links to the uploaded docs were removed by site admin, as the docs contained personal data (incl emails + tel numbers) of trip participants.

Anna - could this not have been done privately within the group of attendees.

 I'm not sure everyone would like their personal phone number and private email address advertised in a public space.

It's a total violation of privacy and the reason we have privacy filters on internet sites.

It would have been more courteous to either black out the columns containing personal details or to ask the group first.

Just saying....

Anna:

We removed the links you posted, as they led to documents which provided private data (incl emails & phone numbers) of people involved in the story.

Pls feel free to re-post the links, if you remove the private data from the docs.

Thanks,

Nir, glocals admin

You're right, Caroline! I've blocked the excel sheet. Only the Word file is left (it has no private data)

*Carolyn! (Sorry for misspelling your name)

Here's the link for the word document with no private data.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4hGsAAMoNu3NmNEQkNJMkhuRHM/edit?usp=sharing

I think this probably can be taken into a private arena (possibly emails or a private group in glocals) amongst yourselves, at least until Alvaro makes an appearance to either defend himself/put it right or until you have come to some kind of conclusion as this is veering towards flogging a dead horse. 

But thanks for bringing this up, it shows that organisers are not above scrutiny despite the fact that 99% of them bring a wonderful necessary part to the community. 

I doubt he doesnt know this conversation is going on, so he is either avoiding it or ignoring it. Neither are doing him a favour. 

Thanks Anna - I didn't have a problem with you posting the links/spreadsheet - just had a big "ouch" when I saw everyone's personal info....

The bottom line is that he kept money that did not belong to him.  And then claimed to be donating said monies to charity that does not legally exist. 

The rest of it does not matter one iota. 

You're right, Farzam. Mission of letting others know is accomplished. Thanks for the support!

It looks like some people have been busy trying to bury someone alive while he was doing something else.

I AM THE EVENT ORGANIZER, and I have nothing to hide. I just happen to have other things to do than wasting my time in front of a computer being sorry about some people who have such attitude towards life.

It is sad that some people find a very awkward way of paying back someone who organized an activity thanks of which they now have a few more friends and memories (proved by the same pictures published in the event page by themselves).

It is sad that people who do things, and therefore have more chances of making mistakes, are the ones who get all a witch hunt like this and those who don’t do anything but blaming other’s work get away with it.

I am going to explain the facts for those who care.

The hotel name was a 4 star hotel, as promised. The service amongst the best in their category, and the staff very helpful.

I challenge the people who posted the nasty comments in this forum to organize a trip which includes 2 nights in a hotel walking distance from the Duomo in Milan for 250CHF. These two nights in the hotel became more expensive than the trip itself, excluding any other extra. I had people telling me that when they tried to book on their own the trip became too expensive. This is because that weekend was very busy. This can be confirmed by any of the participants. People had to queue to get breakfast.

I never promised to pay boat rides as some people suggest in this forum. I only suggested a possibility of doing that activity for the people who decided to do an alternative plan B.

Many people in this trip had a different idea of the dynamics. Some really tried hard to delay the dinner, which was planned at 19h, just because they were not hungry.

I tried to accommodate all different needs and wishes as much as possible giving them freedom to do whatever they wanted. I encouraged everyone to come to the walking tour, some came, some did not and missed the opportunity. Everyone did whatever they wanted.

The only thing I did not provide in the trip that I volunteered to organize was the pick up from the train station. I offered my excuses (a default in my GPS made me go around Milan and did not make it on time). Again, many people can verify this.

Some people complained about this, and asked for a refund and I offered them just that. After a week I realized that they just wanted to complain, I made an estimate of the money saved and put it in an envelope for a fund to help an educational project.

Yes, Roman. As I told you very clearly I do NOT have a name for the charity that is going to receive that money. As I wrote, I am going to Africa in August. I will decide where the money goes then. At the moment that money is in an envelope.

Yes, Roman. I deleted all messages posted there as you show in your picture. What you do not show in your picture is the message I posted instead, still there with a date that only Glocals admin can change: ‘Please send any feedback directly to me via email. I will not be checking this board. I accept constructive criticism if it helps improvement. Thank you’

I have no idea how much time some people dedicate to certain activities. I dedicate my spare time to have fun in the mountains and meet people who transmit happiness. This is why I joined glocals and this is why I keep organizing activities.

The only reason I have wasted half an hour of my time replying you is because a couple of friends asked me to.

I don’t think that asking for a private channel of constructive criticism is asking too much. If you have any of that I would gladly answer you. If you do not have any I rather spend my time in my hobbies.

“Live, love, laugh, leave a legacy.”

― Stephen R. Covey

Thank you very much everyone who reported having fun in Milan. I have more fun when I see other people who do. Thank you very much to those who posted such great pictures and wrote such nice thank you messages to let me know that my many hours spent planning this trip were translated in them having a great time, seeing great places and views, excellent conversations and meeting many people and making new friends, some of them forever. It looks like many of us have found friends forever.

“If I really want to improve my situation, I can work on the one thing over which I have control - myself.”

“Be a light, not a judge. Be a model, not a critic”

― Stephen R. Covey, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People

Apologies again for my planning not being perfect, and for those of you who do not like some aspects of my style. I understand that we are all grown ups with many years of independence and we don't always like another adult telling us that dinner is at 7pm or that we cannot drive a car unless there are at least 3 passengers or even the speed and itinerary of a walking tour.  I hope that I gave you enough freedom to get out of my agenda whenever you felt like it and that you used these times efficiently.

“Two people can see the same thing, disagree, and yet both be right. It's not logical; it's psychological.”

― Stephen R. Covey, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People: Powerful Lessons in Personal Change

I understand that some of you might not have liked the way I am, or even the way I talk, dress or walk. This happens often when you are in a big group and meet so many people for the first time. I understand that some of you might not join this type of activities and that is ok. I just want to ask you, beg you, not to transmit your negative views to others as it will ruin their great memories and limit their happiness.

“It's not what happens to us, but our response to what happens to us that hurts us.”

― Stephen R. Covey, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People

Yours,

Alvaro.

It looks like some people have been busy trying to bury someone alive while he was doing something else.

I AM THE EVENT ORGANIZER, and I have nothing to hide. I just happen to have other things to do than wasting my time in front of a computer being sorry about some people who have such attitude towards life.

It is sad that some people find a very awkward way of paying back someone who organized an activity thanks of which they now have a few more friends and memories (proved by the same pictures published in the event page by themselves).

It is sad that people who do things, and therefore have more chances of making mistakes, are the ones who get all a witch hunt like this and those who don’t do anything but blaming other’s work get away with it.

I am going to explain the facts for those who care.

The hotel name was a 4 star hotel, as promised. The service amongst the best in their category, and the staff very helpful.

I challenge the people who posted the nasty comments in this forum to organize a trip which includes 2 nights in a hotel walking distance from the Duomo in Milan for 250CHF. These two nights in the hotel became more expensive than the trip itself, excluding any other extra. I had people telling me that when they tried to book on their own the trip became too expensive. This is because that weekend was very busy. This can be confirmed by any of the participants. People had to queue to get breakfast.

I never promised to pay boat rides as some people suggest in this forum. I only suggested a possibility of doing that activity for the people who decided to do an alternative plan B.

Many people in this trip had a different idea of the dynamics. Some really tried hard to delay the dinner, which was planned at 19h, just because they were not hungry.

I tried to accommodate all different needs and wishes as much as possible giving them freedom to do whatever they wanted. I encouraged everyone to come to the walking tour, some came, some did not and missed the opportunity. Everyone did whatever they wanted.

The only thing I did not provide in the trip that I volunteered to organize was the pick up from the train station. I offered my excuses (a default in my GPS made me go around Milan and did not make it on time). Again, many people can verify this.

Some people complained about this, and asked for a refund and I offered them just that. After a week I realized that they just wanted to complain, I made an estimate of the money saved and put it in an envelope for a fund to help an educational project.

Yes, Roman. As I told you very clearly I do NOT have a name for the charity that is going to receive that money. As I wrote, I am going to Africa in August. I will decide where the money goes then. At the moment that money is in an envelope.

Yes, Roman. I deleted all messages posted there as you show in your picture. What you do not show in your picture is the message I posted instead, still there with a date that only Glocals admin can change: ‘Please send any feedback directly to me via email. I will not be checking this board. I accept constructive criticism if it helps improvement. Thank you’

I have no idea how much time some people dedicate to certain activities. I dedicate my spare time to have fun in the mountains and meet people who transmit happiness. This is why I joined glocals and this is why I keep organizing activities.

The only reason I have wasted half an hour of my time replying you is because a couple of friends asked me to.

I don’t think that asking for a private channel of constructive criticism is asking too much. If you have any of that I would gladly answer you. If you do not have any I rather spend my time in my hobbies.

“Live, love, laugh, leave a legacy.”

― Stephen R. Covey

Thank you very much everyone who reported having fun in Milan. I have more fun when I see other people who do. Thank you very much to those who posted such great pictures and wrote such nice thank you messages to let me know that my many hours spent planning this trip were translated in them having a great time, seeing great places and views, excellent conversations and meeting many people and making new friends, some of them forever. It looks like many of us have found friends forever.

“If I really want to improve my situation, I can work on the one thing over which I have control - myself.”

“Be a light, not a judge. Be a model, not a critic”

― Stephen R. Covey, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People

Apologies again for my planning not being perfect, and for those of you who do not like some aspects of my style. I understand that we are all grown ups with many years of independence and we don't always like another adult telling us that dinner is at 7pm or that we cannot drive a car unless there are at least 3 passengers or even the speed and itinerary of a walking tour.  I hope that I gave you enough freedom to get out of my agenda whenever you felt like it and that you used these times efficiently.

“Two people can see the same thing, disagree, and yet both be right. It's not logical; it's psychological.”

― Stephen R. Covey, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People: Powerful Lessons in Personal Change

I understand that some of you might not have liked the way I am, or even the way I talk, dress or walk. This happens often when you are in a big group and meet so many people for the first time. I understand that some of you might not join this type of activities and that is ok. I just want to ask you, beg you, not to transmit your negative views to others as it will ruin their great memories and limit their happiness.

“It's not what happens to us, but our response to what happens to us that hurts us.”

― Stephen R. Covey, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People

Yours,

Alvaro.

Well Alvaro.  I am sorry that I called you out like this. It gives me no pleasure to do it. But you were deleting comments and not answering peoples inquiries. 

I appreciate the time you took to respond. I can feel the emotion in your words. 

But none of what you wrote explains why you feel that you can keep money that does not belong to you. Help me understand this quantum leap in logic. 

It's not like you asked everyone if they wanted to give it to you. You have everyones bank information so that's not the problem. You're super duper at math so figuring out who to remunerate and for how much is not the problem either. 

So what's the problem here? 

To be honest with you. If you had asked. I would have probably said "keep it."

We have no problem towars life - we just expected things that we paid for - people who have sthg to hide keep reversing situations....we are more than 10 people asking for the same thing: transparency of cost and refund if applicable as well as apologies for the disappointing weekend in terms of logistics. And please don't try to put things in charity excuse. I work in charity and I can truly say that people like you are the one messing up real focus and purpose of events and acts!!! Again Please provide transparency on cost if you have then nothing to hide then! It is as easy as a 1 page answer which we already have and quotes are not the response to our request! We are making sure that other people won't get trapped!!!!

Just a joke...

From what I read of the last few replies It looks like some people have not quite read my answer, so I will clarify it again:

I am the event organizer, and I have nothing to hide. I just happen to have other things to do than wasting my time in front of a computer being sorry about some people who have such attitude towards life.

 It is sad that some people find a very awkward way of paying back someone who organized an activity thanks of which they now have a few more friends and memories (proved by the same pictures published in the event page by themselves).

 It is sad that people who do things, and therefore have more chances of making mistakes, are the ones who get all a witch hunt like this and those who don’t do anything but blaming other’s work get away with it.

I am going to explain the facts for those who care.

The hotel name was a 4 star hotel, as promised. The service amongst the best in their category, and the staff very helpful.

I challenge the people who posted the nasty comments in this forum to organize a trip which includes 2 nights in a hotel walking distance from the Duomo in Milan for 250CHF. These two nights in the hotel became more expensive than the trip itself, excluding any other extra. I had people telling me that when they tried to book on their own the trip became too expensive. This is because that weekend was very busy. This can be confirmed by any of the participants. People had to queue to get breakfast.

 I never promised to pay boat rides as some people suggest in this forum. I only suggested a possibility of doing that activity for the people who decided to do an alternative plan B.

 Many people in this trip had a different idea of the dynamics. Some really tried hard to delay the dinner, which was planned at 19h, just because they were not hungry.

 I tried to accommodate all different needs and wishes as much as possible giving them freedom to do whatever they wanted. I encouraged everyone to come to the walking tour, some came, some did not and missed the opportunity. Everyone did whatever they wanted.

 The only thing I did not provide in the trip that I volunteered to organize was the pick up from the train station. I offered my excuses (a default in my GPS made me go around Milan and did not make it on time). Again, many people can verify this.

 Some people complained about this, and asked for a refund and I offered them just that. After a week I realized that they just wanted to complain, I made an estimate of the money saved and put it in an envelope for a fund to help an educational project. It was some people’s choice not to request your money back when it was offered, not mine.

 Yes, Roman. As I told you very clearly I do NOT have a name for the charity that is going to receive that money. As I wrote, I am going to Africa in August. I will decide where the money goes then. And YES, I think I am quite good at mathematics, but it would have taken me the same time doing the calculations than you with a calculator. If you can prove that you have made the accounts of your expenses in the last 2 weeks, then I will apologize for not having done my homework and will double the donation with my own money. Otherwise, I will continue with my estimate. At the moment that money is in an envelope. And if you don’t trust that I would give it to charity you should have claimed it back when I offered. If you should not give your money to a charity project you do not trust.

Yes, Roman. I deleted all messages posted there as you show in your picture. What you do not show in your picture is the message I posted instead, still there with a date that only Glocals admin can change: ‘Please send any feedback directly to me via email. I will not be checking this board. I accept constructive criticism if it helps improvement. Thank you’

 I have no idea how much time some people dedicate to certain activities. I dedicate my spare time to have fun in the mountains and meet people who transmit happiness. This is why I joined glocals and this is why I keep organizing activities.

The only reason I have wasted half an hour of my time replying you is because a couple of friends asked me to.

I don’t think that asking for a private channel of constructive criticism is asking too much. If you have any of that I would gladly answer you. If you do not have any I rather spend my time in my hobbies.

“Live, love, laugh, leave a legacy.”

― Stephen R. Covey

Thank you very much everyone who reported having fun in Milan. I have more fun when I see other people who do. Thank you very much to those who posted such great pictures and wrote such nice thank you messages to let me know that my many hours spent planning this trip were translated in them having a great time, seeing great places and views, excellent conversations and meeting many people and making new friends, some of them forever. It looks like many of us have found friends forever.

“If I really want to improve my situation, I can work on the one thing over which I have control - myself.”

“Be a light, not a judge. Be a model, not a critic”

― Stephen R. Covey, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People

Apologies again for my planning not being perfect, and for those of you who do not like some aspects of my style. I understand that we are all grown ups with many years of independence and we don't always like another adult telling us that dinner is at 7pm or that we cannot drive a car unless there are at least 3 passengers or even the speed and itinerary of a walking tour.  I hope that I gave you enough freedom to get out of my agenda whenever you felt like it and that you used these times efficiently.

“Two people can see the same thing, disagree, and yet both be right. It's not logical; it's psychological.”

― Stephen R. Covey, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People: Powerful Lessons in Personal Change

I understand that some of you might not have liked the way I am, or even the way I talk, dress or walk. This happens often when you are in a big group and meet so many people for the first time. I understand that some of you might not join this type of activities and that is ok. I just want to ask you, beg you, not to transmit your negative views to others as it will ruin their great memories and limit their happiness.

“It's not what happens to us, but our response to what happens to us that hurts us.”

― Stephen R. Covey, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People

Yours,

Alvaro.

No offence Alvaro, but instead of spending thirty minutes filling the page with quotes from an anodyne, irrelevant and analytically laughable self-help book, you could have just simply put in 'Money is sat in an envelope, where shall I send your amount?' or 'here are reasons I am holding on to the money'. 

Everything else seems like filler and pseudo-factoids to distract from the issue at hand.

What it comes down to is you promising something, not delivering (this would not be the case if you didnt have money in an envelope and several people complaining) and people wanting the monetary equivilant of what was not delivered upon, to be returned to them. Is it really that difficult? As you claim, the money is right there, the only thing stopping you refunding the people their money...well it's you. How a hotel becomes more expensive after you've booked is beyond me. Almost nothing you have said has changed the balance here. 

I assume the reason Roman et al posted on the page instead of private messing, because you can't easily avoid public messages...you know...like these ones. He could send you private messages until the cows come home and you could ignore each and every one and no one would be the wiser. The fact that it has come to this, means that this isnt people who like to complain for the sake complaining. 

It seems pretty straight forward, just open that magical envelope and refund the money. Unless, of course, you have a good reason not to, to which I and I'm sure several others will be waiting with bated breath.

So if I'm reading this right, Alvaro organised an event, admitted some (or all) participants have overpaid and money was 'waiting in an envelope for them' but them came out with some moralistic crap about donating it to a charity which doesn't exist (yet) to emotionally blackmail people into not asking for a refund.

Okay. I think if I was one of the people he owes, I'd go with the Stewie Griffin approach.  

I wasn't planning on commenting but I have to agree with many of the comments above.  I was really disappointed with this trip.  Although the lunches could have been planned better I'd like to think they were blessings in disguise as many of us had amazing lunches instead of the sack lunches promised!

What people forgot to mention - The organisor planned the trip on Glocals but did not write on the event page nor mention it to any of us until after we paid and the day of the trip that this trip was going to be with a bunch of 12 and 13 year old school girls.  If the organisor had told us that this trip was going to be with a bunch of school girls when he put the event on glocals I think a number of people would have not signed up!  The organisor did promise a tour and lunch on Sunday but he didn't tell anyone until the tour started that we would have a bunch of annoying little girls that were coming on the tour with us which is why a number of people left the tour group.  

I understand that planning a trip is very hard but a simple apology would have been nice after the event.  Thank you for the apoloigy that you wrote above.

Deepak

Wow! Did the parents of these 12/13 year olds know? 

Sometimes art does indeed mirror reality.

Unfortunately not when we expect it. 

Actually Alvaro. I don't need a calculator.  I am actually pretty darn good at mathematics too. While I don't hold a degree in the subject. I do have a brother who is real "recruited out of college" to work for NASA  Rocket Scientist and another brother who has real PHd in Physics from AFIT and is currently a Colonel in the US Air Force working as a"real" physicist. 

But thank you for the crutch nonetheless. The genes are real good over here in stupidsville. Sorry to disappoint you. 

Wow! This just keeps on getting weirder! So apart from everything else that happened, you also had half the cast of St Trinian's trailing along behind you. Marvellous! 

P.S. Does anyone know why they were there?

Here's a charity; Africa for Norway. They've already got a song!

Hello All,

  I was in the trip as well. The problem was that a lot of things were promised but not delivered, at least not delivered in the way so people could get it (like pick up from station, lunch and hiking plan). Most people understand that it is hard to organize things for 20 people, not to mention that there were 6 school girls as surprising visitors. If the organizer had not promised all these, or if he had excused himself for not being able to meet the promises, then most people would not complain. However, he insisted all the time that he had done his best in considering others' interest. But this was simply not true. He was doing his own things and if people wanted to come along, OK. I don't have problem with this, but he should have let us known instead of promising to organizing all things for us. After people complained, his emails are just obnoxious to read - maybe there is a lost in translation here - but in English such letters are just rude and they cannot defend him neither.

Why did he promised all these things? He could just tell us that we should organize ourselves. It might be a way to attract participants. But some people suspected that this was a way to increase the charge of the trip. So they wanted a breakdown of the cost. In my opinion, if Alvaro gave a breakdown of cost, then things would be settled right there. Of course this was never given.Carolyne was kind to offer refund. But this was not the point. People just wanted to see the real cost, which no one but Alvaro knows.

Finally the situation became clear after a lot of email exchanges. Alvaro admitted that he made money out of this trip (he did not say how much), it was in an envelop, and he would give it to a yet unknown charity. The truth is, none of us was informed about this plan from the beginning to the end of the trip.

Personally the biggest damage I received was the Saturday night dinner - when I told my friends that I had a "typical" all you can eat but not choose pizza dinner, they just could not stop laughing at me. Who knows how much that was charged:-)

If a significant group of people were disatisfied and the reasons given by the organizer do not make sense, then this person should be banned from the site.

There are some people, including participants, who utilize this site to promote their business, or for what it seems like in this case, profit from the organization of an event.  This is not the purpose of this site, and if we allow this to happen, it will get worse, and the site's reputation will start to decrease.

To the site designers, I would suggest a rating system for both participants and organizers.  

For participants:
After an event, participants could rate the experience of the event by selecting an option for say satisfied or disatisfied, and a forced field for comments if the negative option is selected.  The organizer's profile would show a % score that continues to go higher as more positive feedback is given.  

For organizers:
After an event, organizers could rate participants by selecting an option (Attend / Not attended / Not attended but reason given), and participants would also develop a % score as they continue to show up on events that they sign up for.

Jean-Jacques, awesome idea! Hope it will be implemented soon.

I was on the trip too.I was  happy with my weekend - but I had very different expectations to the others,so there was no disappointment involved(except I can't eat seafood - and half of the dinner was.....seafood salad)

I liked your picture Rich BUT I do have to say that the schoolgirls were far from being St Trinians pupils.The latter are full of energy and mischief and are very noisy - these ones were just the usual clueless teenagers.......and no problem at all.

Well,they never actually bothered anyone,as far as I know - unless the hotel receptionist is still bound and gagged in a cupboard somewhere?.

Ok the lunch box was not there, you lost some weight, relax...  It is sunny outside , you really have nothing better to do ?

Okay but what was the reason for these schoolgirls tagging along as well? He combined a Glocals trip with having to look after a school visit to Milan or something? Still not clear and just bizarre. 

From the feedback from some of the Lausanne Glocals members, Alvaro seems like a decent enough guy but apparently has lost the plot in this instance. If you actually admit you owe people money for overpayment on an event, then surely the best thing to do would be to refund them.

That aside, should anyone attend any future events I post, I'd like to remind them all to bring a cheque in the sum of SFr 500 and give it to me at the start of the event. Please make it payable to  "Campaign for the Alleviation of Switzerland's Homeless" or if that's too long to write, just use the initials: C.A.S.H.

Thanks. 

From what I read of the last few replies, it looks like some people have not quite read my answer, so I will clarify it again further. Please read before you make your judgment especially if you are going to throw a stone to me:

I am the event organizer, and I have nothing to hide. I just happen to have other things to do than wasting my time in front of a computer being sorry about some people who have such attitude towards life. Yes, Maurizio. Some people don’t seem to have anything better to do….I guess it helps them it is not sunny outside ;)

I have apologized many times for not having perfectly organized the event so that it suited the needs and personality of all attendants. I have apologized many times for not being able to pick people up from the train station and offered a refund for the train tickets to anyone interested. But as they’ve very clearly stated people complaining here do not want a refund. They do not really want apologies. They want humiliation. I do not think is fair this bullying against someone who tries best, volunteering to get activity going in Glocals.

It is sad that some people find a very awkward way of paying back someone who organized an activity thanks of which they now have a few more friends and memories (proved by the same pictures published in the event page by themselves).

It is sad that people who do things, and therefore have more chances of making mistakes, are the ones who get all a witch hunt like this and those who don’t do anything but blaming other’s work get away with it.

Roman just sent me an email to say ‘Checkmate’. For him this seems to have been a little game and he has won. He and Hanane A. have managed to bully me in their witch-hunt. Some aspects in society have not changed much from the middle ages. If you had different opinions or did too many things, chances made that someone would dislike you and use terrible tools such as the holy inquisition to have someone tortured or burnt alive. Nowadays they use fire forums like this. The only way to avoid that is by not doing anything, keeping the head down and trying to be nice to everyone, patting their back when needed.

I am not someone who follows crowds or pat certain people’s backs so that they feel their power. This and the fact that I am very active increases the chances of not being liked.

Yes, I have a degree in theoretical physics and I like Covey but I don’t see any wrong with that. Still, by mentioning that Roman managed to motivate people who know nothing about me criticize my personality saying that I was patronizing and trying to associate negative adjectives to my personality, making the association stronger by writing down the true definitions. I don´t think that writing quotes from Covey or suggesting the use of a calculator (which I confess I would use myself with my degree which is now somehow questioned to be ‘real’) is patronizing anyone. If your self steem is so low and you were offended, I am really sorry for you.

Yes, I like to respect the environment and I dislike when people come to my activities with a half-empty car as I think I am contributing to damage the environment. If you did not like me when I told you that you should not have signed up. You could have found friends elsewhere, right? Was this ‘check mate’ all you wanted from this trip?

I am going to explain the facts for those who really care and I care for. If you are considering being a friend of mine, read on. If you just have fun witch-hunts I probably don’t want you any near my friends or me. Since, you are not welcome to my activities, why would you care?

The hotel name was a 4 star hotel, as promised. The service amongst the best in their category, and the staff very helpful.  

I challenge the people who posted the nasty comments in this forum to organize a trip which includes 2 nights in a hotel walking distance from the Duomo in Milan for 250CHF. These two nights in the hotel became more expensive than the trip itself, excluding any other extra. I had people telling me that when they tried to book on their own the trip became too expensive. This is because that weekend was very busy. This can be confirmed by any of the participants. People had to queue to get breakfast. The same goes for the Restaurant, so popular that tables where filled the second they were vacant.

The hotel is very big and Milan is much bigger. The restaurant had many tables and they were all full all the time. I don’t think it is my role to say to people if there are other groups there, regardless their sex, age, race or political views. And I don’t think anyone has the right to tell anyone organizing an event that he cannot invite whoever he likes. By the way, I did say in one of my many emails that the girls were coming and the only time they actually had any interaction with the group was during the walking tour that I volunteered to do.

I never promised to pay boat rides as some people suggest in this forum. I only suggested a possibility of doing that activity for the people who decided to do an alternative plan B. I was very clear that I was not organizing any of these alternative activities and I asked for volunteers.

Many people in this trip had a different idea of the dynamics. Some really tried hard to delay the dinner, which was planned at 19h, just because they were not hungry. Yes, Roman I am talking about you.

I tried to accommodate all different needs and wishes as much as possible giving them freedom to do whatever they wanted. I encouraged everyone to come to the walking tour, some came, some did not and missed the opportunity. Everyone did whatever they wanted.

The only thing I did not provide in the trip that I volunteered to organize was the pick up from the train station. I offered my excuses (a default in my GPS made me go around Milan and did not make it on time). Again, many people can verify this.

Some people complained about this, and asked for a refund and I offered them just that. After a week I realized that they just wanted to complain, I made an estimate of the money saved and put it in an envelope for a fund to help an educational project. It was some people’s choice not to request your money back when it was offered, not mine.

Yes, Roman. As I told you very clearly I do NOT have a name for the charity that is going to receive that money. As I wrote, I am going to Africa in August. I will decide where the money goes then. And YES, I think I am quite good at mathematics, but it would have taken me the same time doing the calculations than you with a calculator. If you can prove that you have made the accounts of your expenses in the last 2 weeks, then I will apologize for not having done my homework and will double the donation with my own money. Otherwise, I will continue with my estimate. At the moment that money is in an envelope. And if you don’t trust that I would give it to charity you should have claimed it back when I offered.

I wonder what would happen if I could actually calculate the exact amount spent and this had been negative how many of these people would have offered to pay the difference. I feel I have the right to give this money to the charity project of my choice. Yet, I have asked people for feedback on that, and nobody has send me suggestions of charities.

Yes, Roman. I deleted all messages posted there as you show in your picture. I believe that criticism should be send to the person being criticized directly. What you do not show in your picture is the message I posted instead, still there with a date that only Glocals admin can change: ‘Please send any feedback directly to me via email. I will not be checking this board. I accept constructive criticism if it helps improvement. Thank you’

I have no idea how much time some people dedicate to certain activities. I dedicate my spare time to have fun in the mountains and meet people who transmit happiness. This is why I joined glocals and this is why I keep organizing activities.

The only reason I have wasted half an hour of my time replying you is because a couple of friends asked me to.

I don’t think that asking for a private channel of constructive criticism is asking too much. If you have any of that I would gladly answer you. If you do not have any I rather spend my time in my hobbies.

“Live, love, laugh, leave a legacy.”

― Stephen R. Covey

Thank you very much everyone who reported having fun in Milan. I have more fun when I see other people who do. Thank you very much to those who posted such great pictures and wrote such nice thank you messages to let me know that my many hours spent planning this trip were translated in them having a great time, seeing great places and views, excellent conversations and meeting many people and making new friends, some of them forever. It looks like many of us have found friends forever.

“If I really want to improve my situation, I can work on the one thing over which I have control - myself.”

“Be a light, not a judge. Be a model, not a critic”

― Stephen R. Covey, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People

Apologies again for my planning not being perfect, and for those of you who do not like some aspects of my style. I understand that we are all grown ups with many years of independence and we don't always like another adult telling us that dinner is at 7pm or that we cannot drive a car unless there are at least 3 passengers or even the speed and itinerary of a walking tour.  I hope that I gave you enough freedom to get out of my agenda whenever you felt like it and that you used these times efficiently.

“Two people can see the same thing, disagree, and yet both be right. It's not logical; it's psychological.”

― Stephen R. Covey, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People: Powerful Lessons in Personal Change

I understand that some of you might not have liked the way I am, or even the way I talk, dress or walk. This happens often when you are in a big group and meet so many people for the first time. I understand that some of you might not join this type of activities and that is ok. I just want to ask you, beg you, not to transmit your negative views to others as it will ruin their great memories and limit their happiness.

“It's not what happens to us, but our response to what happens to us that hurts us.”

― Stephen R. Covey, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People

Yours,

Alvaro.

Alvaro,

See message # 29

This game that you're playing is over. You checkmated yourself. 

I cannot put it to you anymore plainly than that.

You have an opportunity right now to show people that you're not a crook.  Just do the math and send people their money or ask them if you can keep it. 

This is not complicated.

No one is bullying you.  

I have organised many trips and understand the complications but never had any issues apart from some last minute cancellations. I always communicate plans n issues beforehand to avoid such circumstances.

Alvaro could u be kind n msg me with the link of document u sent to ppl on this trip about the whole plan (delete all the contact info of the participants) . May be i can go through the doc n then relate to some of the complaints here if these have any basis. 

LOOKING at the event i don't see any promises for paying boat rides or train rides or lunch boxes. 

NO gain for me here ...JUST TRYING TO HELP since alot of people are jumping to conclusions without really knowing what was promised and what was delivered.

Thank u in advance

Roman,

I participated in many of Alvaro's activities which were always very well organized.He was doing all of them for free and sharing his own equipment with us. Thanks to him many people (including myself) learned to do VF, climbing, saw many beautiful places in Switzerland, made good friends. 

Organizing travel activity is a difficult job, many people pay a lot of money to the travel agencies and stay unsatisfied. Not because someone is bad but because people do mistakes or it is impossible to predict everything and to satisfy everyone. Alvaro is not a travel agency, he just wanted to help you and to make new friends. 

I agree that people shall have a choice to donate money or not. I do not know the details of your story but if you feel you were not given a choice I am happy to give you the money he owes you because my choice is to donate it to the charitable project that Alvaro is setting up in support of education in third world countries. I am aware of the project, support it and absolutely sure that the money will not be wasted. Please contact me personally to discuss the details. 

Roman,

Although I was not in this trip, this forum was interesting for me. 

I think you are on the way.... they want  to open the envelope and give your money back.... 

Hi guys,

I´m also one of the participants of the Milan trip, unfortunatelly probably just the minor part of the group who has enjoyed the trip to the max, from the very start to the very end. I don´t know, maybe because I was privileged to be driven all the way to Milan and back with all the comfort that car has to offer?

Or was it because I was lucky enough to receive a „packed lunch“, because I joined the via ferrata group which was led by Alvaro?! Just for your record – we had some fresh bread with salami and cheese and some sweets, as a dessert, I suppose. Just perfect „lunch“ that could be expected once you plan to do some hiking at the lakes, VF, or let´s say a boat ride…  As for the lunch the following day we had some typical stuffed balls, sorry, I´m not good at names (not only, but also), ideal to snack on while you´re sightseeing within the town… So no bountiful lunches in posh restaurants, no wine either!

Regarding the Saturday dinner, yeah, I may imagine pizza being rather „boring“ choice, but come on, there were plenty of different kinds, very tasty ones, nice salad and wine or beer, let´s say a reasonable option for a big group of people which comes over and gets served immediately in a packed restaurant at that evening hour. BTW, isn´t pizza, let´s say, typical for Italy?!

Regarding the school girls, as it was already mentioned here, they didn´t interrupt the group´s schedule or activities a single bit, or at least I haven´t noticed or haven´t felt it anyhow.

I´ve never organized any event and I don´t intend to do so in the future either. There are different people with different tastes, preferences, characteristics, stamina, hobbies, etc.  I don´t even wish to imagine how much time, work and effort it takes to any organizer to plan any event, not to mention once there is something organized abroad! All the phonecalls, or text messages from the future participants, all the communication around to get stuff organized and taken care of generally… And I could go on and on…

Well, wherever the „truth“ is, I´m convinced that Alvaro´s prime goal or focus of this trip was not to make any money of it or to rip someone off! It was just an idea how to make a nice and enjoyable trip for some people, first, the idea was just to take a few, but as there was such a high demand and big interest he even made that possible, in order to get all this in return?! No, you simply cannot please everyone and the more people in the group there is the more problems arise…

Guys, once you join such a big group what expectations do you have? Why don´t you go on your own and shop all day long and then again the next day?! Why don´t you go to a restaurant which serves your favourite meal and enjoy it over a glass (or bottle) of tasty wine? Why don´t you go and see all the sights that there are out there for you to explore?! Or go and get yourself wasted, I don´t know! Go ahead, enjoy it!!!!!!

Just one last question, but maybe rather useless to ask as I don´t intend to continue being engaged in this thread anymore as I never wanted to step in anyway, eventhough I´ve been following it since the very beginning, yeah, I know, maybe I´m a coward, but somehow I don´t want to spend my precious time, my early morning hours or late nights, eventhough it´s raining outside… Well, back to the question… Why are we dealing with this here and now? Why there was nothing said or demanded by anyone, let´s say e.g. regarding the lunches at the spot in Milan? Why there was not a better communication between the group and the organizer once  any discrepancy occurred?

Maybe I´m just too humble (or stupid?), or wanted to get the most of the whole trip, enjoy the offered possibilities, meet some nice and fun people, try and see new things in an attractive environment… All of the above has worked out for me quite well, I have to admit, I´m sorry it did not for you guys…

This entire thread reminds me of an old Hebrew proverb:

“Before setting off on the road to vengeance, dig two graves”

I don’t think (with a few exceptions) that this forum has put anyone in a particularly favourable light.

I especially don’t think judgemental remarks from people who were not even on the trip are helpful either; Comedic snippets aside, because that’s what forums are for and it makes us all laugh and helps us find something amusing out of a bad situation.

So moving on and with an attempt to help mediate and draw a line under this whole situation, there appear to be 2 essential issues and there must, therefore be 2 essential solutions.

Firstly, some people have an issue with Alvaro referring to his project to “travel the world for a year and help establish technology as a means of improving education in 3rd world countries” as “charity”.

So maybe we can change the wording and avoid using the word “charity” and instead use phrases such as “please feel free to donate to my project” or “please sponsor my project with any monies you feel are due to you from theMilantrip”. 

Roman/Alvaro – does that sound like a win/win situation?

Secondly, it appears that there are only a couple of people actually requesting “refunds” for services allegedly advertised, but allegedly, not provided. 

Most other attendees have voiced their concern over general disappointments where Alvaro over promised and under delivered, but are not actively demanding “refunds” because, at the end of the day, the accommodation cost was cheaper than you could book online (I checked before signing up), so everything else was “a bonus”.

So those wanting money back, why have you not put on this thread  EXACTLY how much you were “done out of” and your exact reasons why?  Then there would be clarity of expenses for all to see.

If you were to do this, then everyone would wholeheartedly support your cause, but just screaming and shouting that someone stole your playground/lunch money is not constructive or conducive to finding a solution.

Finally, as an observation rather than a judgement – there is a lot of very inflammatory language being used on this thread and as there are basic laws protecting “defamation of character”, I think we should be a little bit more careful about some of the language that we are using.

Finally (again!), I would beg all the “haters” to list here their additional expenses and how they would like that money to be used (i.e. refunded by bank transfer or donated to Alvaro’s project) and would beg Alvaro to adhere by their wishes.

But this thread is going nowhere other than as a reminder that when life hands you lemons – you can either stay bitter, or you can add a little sugar and make Lemonade.

PS:  Big "Thank You" to Natasha Y  for also offering to cover any expenses - we'll split the bill between us so that neither the Anna's & Hanane's of this world or Alvaro's project will suffer any loss.

I have not gone to this Milan trip, so I'm not able to say or judge anything about what happened there. However, I've been to another one that Alvaro has organized to Lago Maggiore. We were a little group of people. As I cannot talk for others, I'll say that I had a lot of fun. I made new friends and I still see some of them in activities on Glocals. 

Alvaro is very spontaneous and adventurous. There are some things I would not have done if it was not him encouraging me to go for them (like take little boats on the shore to visit the islands close by!!! Great memories!!!! Thanks to the two guys that rawed all the way, so I would not have to do it!!! LOL).

I think that during all the time of the trip, I was responsible for my own happiness and enjoyment. I was responsible for making the best out of it, through a willing attitude and desire to follow the group. 

I have organized events, and can relate to the fact that it is difficult to satisfy everyone, especially when it is a big group of people (even though I've been lucky so far...). I also have experienced being criticized on Glocals forums by people who find it easier to talk aggressively towards others, when it is not to their face but behind the protection of a screen. But one more time, I have not been to this particular trip, so I cannot talk about it, good or bad. But I think that I can objectively say that Alvaro is a cool guy, and all he wants is to have a good time, as well as providing nice opportunities for people who join him to have a good time as well. 

Why do some of you think this about money?

I don't want anything to do with that money at this point. It's tainted and cursed.

Receivership of it won't get me back what I have lost. It won't change the fact that it should have been returned to me rather than taken from me without my consent.  And that I should be given the basic human respect and common courtesy of having a choice as to whether I wanted to give it away. We all deserve this basic respect and consideration. 

And the charity issue is not semantics. Charitable giving is serious business. There is a reason why there are laws governing which organizations can present themselves as a charity. Just like there are laws governing who can practice medicine and call themselves a medical doctor.

Whatever was not delivered in Milan is not the real problem. It's just money. I have never in my life,heard of someone feeling cheated by someone they perceive as having treated them with respect and dignity. But without a doubt, more than half the group felt slighted, duped and some even felt cheated.  That's the real problem here. This is about people feeling wrongfully deprived of what is rightfully their's. The freedom to choose and the desire to be treated with dignity and respect are of far greater worth than the petty cash. 

I agree with you Roman.

It is not about money. It is about respect.

I respect your opinion about charity. You may have years of experience with multimillion donations to registered charities. I just wanted to have this money go to a project without any extra expenses in between, typical of the big registered charities. And I never pretended my project was a registered charity as some messages suggest.

Respect, for me,  is what you show when you don’t agree with someone’s definition of ‘charity’ yet you do not try to prove him wrong in front of others.

Just like charity we have a different definition of respect. For you I might not have respected you when I told you that I rather you did not come with your car unless there were three people in it. For me respect means that if someone is making the effort to organize an event I either respect his ways of doing things or I go somewhere else.

Respect is that if someone organizes a dinner in a very busy restaurant at a time that was clearly stated beforehand I do not try to delay the whole group because I am not hungry.

Respect is what I did not see from your part when you and a couple of people left the walking tour I had volunteered to do without letting me know.

Respect is what I show when I do not agree with someone yet I tolerate him.

I do not agree with your definition of respect, Roman. Yet I respect it and I have tried to reply your emails.

I still don´t know why you had to start this witch-hunt thread instead of letting me know your point of view. The money is not tainted or cursed. This thread of non-sense is.

Yours,

Alvaro.

“Two people can see the same thing, disagree, and yet both be right. It's not logical; it's psychological.”

― Stephen R. Covey, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People: Powerful Lessons in Personal Change

Alvaro,

This thread was started because you were not answering peoples requests for transparency and for applicable refunds. You were deleting any comments that sought to clarify why you had siezed the residual monies rather than simply returning what does not belong to you. You have everyones bank information so there is no excuse why you have not remunerated. 

At one point I asked you a very direct question about the legitimacy of this alleged "charity" and you were elusive in your response. I pressed and then you deleted the exchange to hide it from others. 

I want you to note that at the beginning of this thread I tried to keep your name confidential. It was Carolyn who outed you by name. So it's not quite the "witch hunt" that you want people to believe. 

Oh about the car thing. It's not you asking me to fill my car that was indignant. I think it's great that you're so passionate about environmental stewardship.  It was that when we spoke, man to man, on the phone and I assured you that I would do my best to make sure that my car was full. You had my word. But you continued to send email after email after email badgering about the same thing over and over. You sent these emails out to everyone. And you used lots of caps. The digital version of yelling to bully me. Because at that time I was only person driving other than you. So why were you singleing me out in front of everyone like that?   I told myself that maybe this was just a cultural difference. So I gave you a pass on that one.

Do you remember telling me to rendezvous with you at the hotel and that you would be there at "by 9pm" for check-in? I trusted you to be there on time according to your word. Stuff happens, everyone runs late. But did you give me the respect of a call, a text or an email? No. You were a no-call/no-show. We waited almost an hour for you. Just so you know. I checked my bag when I got there because I was respecting your wish to wait for you to check-in together. Then I went to the store to get some toothpaste and when I came back both of my passengers had already checked in. And the deskman said I could check in. I got my key and had my bag sent up because both Anna and Lucie were sick of waiting for you. They were hungry and they wanted to go eat. You actually got in your hotel room before I got in mine. The next morning you did not even offer an apology. From a first impressions point of view it appeared that you were not that dependable, your word was no good and that you did not care what anyone thought about it. 

And about dinner. On Saturday evening I got in the hotel at 6:50. I ran upstairs, washed my face and changed my clothes so I could be downstairs and ready at 7pm. I was on time. So if were going to tell this story then lets tell it honestly. I knew that you were working hard to herd everyone over to the restaurant. But most of the women and a few of the gents in our group were still getting ready. They were late. I was hoping that you would have been kind enough to tell us the name of the restaurant so we could meet you there asap. But you refused to tell anyone the name of the restaurant. This is behavior was inexplicable. You even got into a little bit of a loud verbal altercation with one of the women in our group about it. I found that part to be kind of embarassing. It made me uncomfortable.  The reason why I did not leave in the first group with you was because I wanted wait for the second group to be a gentleman. I actually thought that the second group would have to fend for themselves at another restaurant because of the way you were acting. It wasn't because I was not hungry. No idea where you got that one. In the end, your lovely girlfriend led the second group over and everything was fine. The service had just begun. The food was alright. The wine and the dessert were both good. And I was very nice to you when you came over to talk to us at our table. Even though I was still waiting for you to man-up for the night before but that never happened the whole time we were in Milan. You did apologize in a comment post in Switzerland after you found out that people were pissed. Thanks. 

Oh and I know the hotel screwed you over on the sack lunchs Saturday morning. It would have been nice had you offered people the respect to let them know that there was a problem so I they could have planned accordingly. This idea that you expected people follow you 50km to Canzo to get a lunch they already paid for was not reasonable or respectful. And you did not tell anyone, who was not in the van, that was the deal either. I found out from the Anna's and Xile after we rescued them from Gajum when they realized that they were nowhere near Lecco or the lake. 

Deepak laid it out pretty well about the walking tour. I have to support him on that. You see, if you had given people the courtesy of being forthcoming about the presence of the schoolgirls on the trip before people paid you. Well that would been great because it was not a welcome surprise. I felt a little bit deceived. But I also think those girls thought the same thing about us too. Again it would have been great if you would have been kind enough to tell us when and where to meet up for lunch. But for some reason, just like dinner, that was also a secret. This seriously sucked because it led to people feeling screwed over about Sunday's lunch too. People paid you and you were keeping secrets about where to collect what they paid you to provide. 

I don't think anyone bullied you. But they were laughing at you. Your unique thought process that tells you that you are somehow are entitled to sieze the residual monies from the trip is fuel for fodder. It's not your money. And by requiring people to beg you by submitting a request for what is already theirs is a tremendously disrespectful. Good people do the right thing not because other people ask them. They do it because it's the right thing to do. 

So if you want to give me the respect of asking me to give my share of those monies to whatever you want it for, then you can have it. It's yours. And if you're not going to ask then just send it back to my account.  I think that's a good litmus test for everyone who's money you've siezed.  

We are all from different backgrounds. There are clearly some cultural differences in both of our ideas of what is respectful. Bad communication by me and you has brought us here. And I am glad we're clearing it up. It's painful for me to have these discussions with you. But I can't sleep at night when I know that someone else is doing me wrong. 

I agree Roman. 

Your views of what is right and wrong are very different to mine.

You accuse me of having 'seized' your money, when you have written many times that you don't want it. 

You accused me of scamming in public. Scamming, as you know, involves a fraudulent scheme but  the only 'proof' you provide is the fact that I never provided a charity registration number. And I have been very transparent with the fact that I don't even have the name of this charity as I prefer to give the money directly to a project once I see it.

The litmus test that you mentioned in your last post has been taken many times, and the very few people who took it supported my project. Nobody has given an alternative option as I reported in most of my messages in this thread.

Laughing with someone is friendly. Laughing at someone as you confess you were doing is not very friendly. Doing it in public is bullying, in my dictionary, that is.

The fact that you did not write my name was very polite of you, but it changed nothing as you left a very clear trace of who you were refering to. And if you had the courtesy of telling me that you had created this thread I would have replied inmediately.

I have replied the private emails that were sent to me asking for information that I could provide. I have personally thanked you for a very long email you sent me to suggest I should call everyone personally to apologice for the many possible inconveniences that my lack of perfect planning might have inflicted in any of the many trip attendants. As I told you in my reply, I don't feel that I had to spend hours calling people who never thanked me for my efforts, to repeat an apology I had already made many times. The first time I wrote it was even before anyone had signed for the trip, in my disclaimer. 

I spend many hours organising this trip, yet I could not have everything planned in detail. I asked for volunteers to plan or suggest alternate activities for the one I told everyone I planned to do myself. I am sorry for some attendants who presumed they would be able to find a lake at the top of the Via Ferrata, but I did not think about specifying that. What I said, though is that there was a nice view of the lake. I should have said 5 lakes. Ups.

Yes I do not think people had the right to moan about lack of organisation to someone who has done so much of it and repeatedly asked volunteers to help him.

I have done you or anyone on the trip any wrong on purpose. The only 'wrong' is that there were many differences in the attendants. Some people did not see the poing of hiking, some of us just loved it.

I am really sorry that they had to be 'rescued' by you from this lovely hike, and I am happy for them that you did. They are certainly supporting you on this thread!

I suggest to all the people who did not enjoy that trip, not to come to any other of mine. The choice is theirs.

We could be replying each others posts for ages, and will always find some differences. I just hope you send me your next one privately so I don't have to reply this no-sense thread.

Thank you,

Alvaro

Guys, you're even unable to go to Milan by yourself, at least do not complain to someone who actually took you there, next time arrange it by yourself LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wow..quiet a scene! No correlation with this Milan activity or anyone who attended this activity but arranging a public event on Glocals is quite a hardwork. I must say arranging a travel trip to another country and taking a bunch of complete strangers with you is a BIG risk and there are high chances that it will never go right! So, hats off to Alvaro for organizing it! In such case everybody who is participating in it is responsible for their own happiness and has no right to accuse anyone if they didn't get a royal treatment. If you don't agree with something, make a point, walk away, and find something else to entertain yourself. If you want to have fun while travelling then please stick to your travel-buddies who think alike: some people like to be spontaneous and adventureous and others like just like to sit in starbucks or sleep.

As I see the thread started with some money issues and failure of the task, and NOW according to the same person both of them are not issues anymore!! (maybe you should have thought clearly what excatly you wanted before posting something so stupid and involving public). It's very clear that this is just a personal issue between you, so keep it like that instead of creating a drama in Glocals community! People attend these activities to find friends not to create issues!

Alvaro,

This is simple. You brought up your grievances about me in your last two posts. I answered them. We can call that a misunderstanding. (And I will even tender you an apology at the bottom of this post.) I left Milan and did not care one iota about what had happened there. Because in spite of everything I made my own happiness.

But when we back got is when things got nuts. Everyone knew that there were residual monies. They asked you for an accounting of the event. You admitted that there was an amount of monies remaining. You sent out a spreadsheet indicating the amount that you were in possession of.

Now here is where it gets completely wacked. This is the great moral divide.

Most people would have just done the math and returned back to people the monies that belong to them. You have everyones bank account information. So it was not a problem to do the right thing. It's still not a problem.

Ah... but that's not what you did. You kept the money. And I do not remember you asking anyone if you could keep it.  

Who does that?

What if we all did that to eachother?

There is no moral justification or reasonable excuse for you to have made the decision to keep other peoples money without asking them if you could. People are robbed of their dignity when you take from them without giving them the choice that is rightfully theirs to make.  

It would have been all too easy to have sent out an email that simply gave people the common decency and respect of asking them if they wanted you to return what belongs to them or if they wanted to donate it to you for whatever your project is. 

I am still waiting for you to ask. And so are others. 

Here's the apology.

Alvaro I am sincerely sorry.

I am sorry that you and I did not get along as well as we could have. I liked you on the phone and I thought you were cool. I was very excited and appreciative to have been allowed on the trip.

I am sorry that I failed you in Milan. Even though you never asked me for help. I should have helped you. We all knew you were in the weeds. And I failed you in fellowship. I am ashamed of that. Because that's not the kind of person I want to be. It's not in my nature to walk away from people that need a hand. But that's what I did. And I am really sorry about it.

I am sorry for not helping you out when we got back. It was clear to me that you screwing up by keeping money that you had no right to keep. I should have helped you do the right thing. But I was weak and blinded by my own pride. This is the second time I failed you in fellowship. And just like the first time I am ashamed of it.

I could have lifted you up.... I should have lifted you up.  Even if you might have never done the same for me. And I am really sorry about that. And I have made a promise to myself and my maker that I will try with all my might to never let that happen again. 

I forgive you for whatever trespasses you made against me. Please forgive me of my trespasses.

Alvaro, you asked for PM and got a public appology wich seems sincere, and some grief about the money...
Both of you are all most at the top of the mountain (you can relate to that). 
Alvaro, Roman's grief comes from the fact he had no choice on that money issue, hence no power of choice!
You could give him a list of 5 charity projects(your choice) for his share, including your future trip, and he decides were it goes to (his choice). 
Mike. 

I'd like to say a big Thank You to Roman for taking time to do this. I support him 100% on this.

I still would like to know the cost breakdown, which has been asked of Alvaro numerous times by now and he still hasn' t done so. Evidently, he has time to write long emotional emails yet no time to calculate the costs... :-S

I can calculate them for Alvaro - just scan/take a picture of the invoices from the hotel and the pizzeria and send it to me.

Everything is getting mixed up in this thread : Personal misunderstandings and Real complaints about the organization.

Personal misunderstandings happen when you plan a group trip, so this shouldn't be discussed in the "Public Place".

Nevertheless, I think that the request that has been made to get back the money difference is FAIR. 

Alvaro, everyone understands that it it hard to plan a trip with people who have different expectations (hiking, shopping, museums, etc...). 

Now, you admitted that some services that you promised were not delivered. The logical thing to do is give the difference back. 

I have been to this hotel before, and I checked the booking prices at different periods (including middle of august, christmas an new years eve). The total price per person in a shared bedroom never exceeds 125 euros per person during peak season.

Hence, even taking into accounting a dinner, it is obvious that people payed you more than what they got.

I am sure that the issue is not the money itself, but the fact that you were not clear about it.

I am sure that if you suggest a trip, telling people that part of the money will go to charity, many glocals will be more that ok with it. The problem for Roman and for the others is that you didn't tell them that beforehand, You didn't give them a choice.

Now the FAIR thing to do, is just to refund the difference to the attendees. It is the only way to restore your credibility, and who knows, maybe, if you are transparent with people, they will be willing to give you even more money to support your project...

See big problem starts from a minor thing!

Just calculate the money and return them.... Why so much of comments and ....

You need to make a wise decision! As many people said you are a good orgniazer but if this forum keep going, more and more people get involve and you loose your credibility. 

***I know none of the parties/events involved here, beyond reading this thread, so am forming my opinions based solely on that.***

There's a lot to be said for speaking in plain English. For an outside observer, this situation is very easy and quick to resolve.

To all, please be careful in using words like "bully" and "bullying", and make sure that what you are claiming has a foundation; that it's not simply a (heated, emotive) disagreement.

For those who feel aggrieved, just state what you want from the organiser of the event, without all the extensive emotional and moral fog. Anything about experience, treatment and feelings can be subjective, so try to heal those differences, once the money problem is resolved. Some of you are veering between asking for the money, then saying you don't want it, but then trying to suggest it should be returned because that's the ethical thing to do. Please stop this; this is damaging your position. Be clear in just asking for what you want and holding your position consistently.

For the organiser, please just focus on confirming if you have returned the excess money, without all the emotional and moral fog. You are posting extensively, yet vaguely, which is causing increased frustration, and damaging your position. Please stop this. Anything about experience, treatment and feelings can be subjective, so try to heal those differences, once you have resolved the money problem. The aggrieved parties do not have to request their money back from you, if there is money left over, because they paid for things which did not materialise. You simply should return it.

Your trip to Africa and charitable activities are separate endevours, and not relevant to the money problem needing resolution on this thread, from what I can see. You could set up a new event to request donations for those things, or request donations once you are in Africa; be mindful, if you do, that it's entirely reasonable/advisable for people to expect you to detail the charity benefitting, and entirely reasonable for people to choose not to donate.

For those asking why this is posted here and not in private, that's explained above; it has been suggested that the aggrieved did try to resolve this privately (there are some examples of the messages exchanged above), but that the organiser replied in the same vague way, albeit with a more aggressive tone, so what options would that leave the aggrieved with, if it's true? It's also suggested that the aggrieved tried to deal with this on the respective event thread, but that the organiser deleted their comments.

I can understand why this has now been escalated to this public forum, if those things are true, and I do believe it has raised some important discussion point about event expecations/experiences/management/conflict resolution.

Thank you for your reply, Roman.

Apologies accepted. In return I would like to repeat my apologies... please read on all the way to the end of the message.

Fist, I would like to clarify a couple of things.

I did ask you for help, Roman. But I did not ask you personally. Instead I wrote it in a document that you probably did not read. I understand that you did not help and even that you did not bother to read the document. You had other things to do in your life prior to the trip. I know it would have been much nicer to ask everyone personally and apologize to everyone for not doing so, but you have to remember that I also have other things to do.

The fact that there was some money left from the trip was never hidden. I would like to apology to everyone that I assumed you knew there was some money remaining. How could it not have been? Do you really think I could plan for a trip like this one and have the amounts exact to the last Euro? Even if the trip had been in Switzerland I would not have been able to do that, never mind in Italy, with the continuous change of currency values.

Most of you did not have time to read half of the messages I sent you. Do really expect me to do an exact calculation of all costs? And send you copies of detailed accounts and receipts? And call everyone individually to get feedback from the trip? Should I also have send a feedback report, written with APA references?

Give me a break guys! How much time do you estimate I would need for all of that? Do you really think that I feel any obligation to work for over a week on a weekend trip I volunteered to organize and spend many hours planning?

Besides, if I had miscalculated the amounts and instead of + 13.90 CHF had been minus 3.50 CHF. How many of you would have volunteered to pay that? Don't bother answering that question; the answer is none, because I would have never sent you that request. Just the work of keeping a record of who had paid what, would have been worth more than the amount itself.

So what I did, and I would like to apology for not asking everyone personally, is estimating the amount getting some ideas from some people and reported my decision to donate that to charity.

Apologies for not considering you in that decision in the early stages, but as I said, I don't really feel I had to. I did, though ask everyone for feedback to be sent to me individually. So if instead of accusing for something I had not done you had given me your suggestions I would have gathered more feedback and my decision would have been influenced by yours.

Not a long time ago a big group of people, many of them I had never met in my life, trusted me and paid me in advanced for a trip, hoping that it would actually happening and the hotel would be there. If I was a scammer I would have kept all the money and not shown my face. I would have used a fake account and I would not be writing these lines.

Therefore, I don't think that presuming you would trust me with these 13.90 CHF is too much, but again I apologize for this, and, following Mike´s suggestion I am going to ask your opinion once again. I will not offer you 5 choices of charities, I will offer you thousands. If you feel that you cannot trust that the 13.90CHF will end up in a good cause, then you need to communicate this to me personally. Just email me a scanned copy of the payment you sent me, with a note requesting a refund of the 13.90CHF, signed and dated. You have time till June 2nd to do that. If 3 days later (June 5th) you have not received my money, please call me before you start an ‘I have been scammed 13.90 CHF thread’. There might have been a mistake in the transfer. Once you get your money, feel free to give it to the charity of your choice and post here your receipt.

We live in a world we want things to happen fast, but I cannot promise you a fast action. It is going to take me till August for me to get to Egypt, September to Ethiopia and till December to go all the way to South Africa. I am 100% sure that I will find many projects on the way. I will not be able to give you a Swiss Charity registration number, but will be able to post here a picture with many happy people who thanks to this donation can make their life’s and that of others better. And I will make sure a sign "Thanks to the glocals in Milan" so that you see has happened.

If you want to follow this project in more detail, join us here:

http://www.educationalpaths.com/en/educationalpathsaroundtheworld.htm

I would like to say that I have lived many experiences through this thread. And, paradoxically, thanks to you Roman, I have learned a great deal about society. I knew that giving people choices is important. Now I know I need to give even more, and keep proof that the choices were given. Just in case someone feels offended.

One more last time, I am sorry for having offended anyone with any aspect of the trip, its organization and/or my personality.

Thank you very much to all the people who have supported my project and trusted me. And special thanks to Nir (Glocals Admin) from whom I have also received many supportive emails.

Yours truly,

Alvaro.

Okay Alvaro.

If you want to personally ask me to donate my portion of the residual monies to your project, then I will probably let you keep it. But you have to ask me first. 

If you can't or will not ask, then just send it back.  I don't care how much it is. I only care that it doesn't belong to you.

If you won't do either of the above then it sure looks like theft. Don't be surprised when the police show up. 

This goes for everyone who's money you're "holding."

Are we clear?

Hi,

I would just had that I took part to this trip to Milan too. I had really enjoyed people I met. They were absolutly fabulous.

However what a mess in organization and even the organizer!!

The worst I think is that I didn't plan to pay for more than 250.CHF and train ticket to Milan, and the contrary happened.

Fortunately, I brought some extra monney with me for shopping, that finally turned out to be reduced due to the fact that I had to pay (again) for my lunches and transportation.

One question to you Alvaro: how would have you reacted, if you would have planned to travel with someone, pretending that you would not have to pay for anything, as all the basics are included in the package you paid for in advance, and then the contrary happens? Imagine the worst, you didn't bring extra monney, as you just couldn't. I am just curious about your behaviour.

You are talking about charity and all the voluntary services you do. Doesn't it start from here?

Virginie

All,

My name is Nir and I'm the co-founder of glocals.com. We'll close this thread tomorrow (Monday), cos it seems there's finally closure. Here's a few last points about it:

1. The short version of Alvaro's last note: there's ca CHF 14 / person left over after the trip. If you want it back, drop Alvaro a private email with your bank account asap. If you don't do that, he'll donate the money to an African charity project he's involved with personally.

2. There was no scam attempt here. I don't know Alvaro personally, but exchanged several emails with him this week, saw all the other great stuff he does, asked and received feedback about him from others, and got a fair idea of who he is. He seems to be a genuine good guy, who does good stuff. He didn't organize a trip for 20 people to Italy in order to scam you out of CHF 14 each.

3. There was bad communications here all around. Alvaro could have done a better job on updating the trip guys earlier about the money situation. Roman etc could have put things in a way that wouldn't have made Alvaro feel so attacked. Rich etc could have realised there's always 2 sides to the story, and held off the judgement.

4. When someone organizes a big activitiey, some things always go off plan. I guess everyone knows this tho, and this wasn't the main issue.

5. I didn't support, or go againt, Alvaro. Alvaro mentioned in his last note that I sent him supportive messages, so I want to clarify this. As moderator, my job is to solve issues or understand if someone is breaking our guidelines, but not to take subjective sides. The messages I sent him were aimed at getting quick closure, and suggesting he just say how much was left, and giving it back (or donating to a known charity).

6. Last, write short! When people write pages and pages on the forums, 99% of others don't read it. Keep it short if you want to get read.

We'll close this thread tomorrow (Monday).

Nir

Virginie,

Things on the ground can go wrong when a guy organizes a trip for 20 people, and they will go wrong. If you go to such a trip with zero money in your pocket, then you're naive.

Alvaro could have updated you more of what's happening and why, for sure. But the fact per se that something went wrong - and from what I understand these are relatively minor things - is reasonable.

Nir, glocals admin

good one! ;)

Some people are just losing their credibility here...

only 14 CHF?

Dear Roman,

I am very sad to read your attacks again. I have asked everyone to suport my project and you are one of them. Sorry again I did not bother to ask you individually.

Even after my email above, you are still accusing me of 'holding' people's money, presuming that I will not keep my promise and even threatening me to take action if I don't.

I am sorry my emails are full of emotions, and very long.

I had to reply to many unfounded accusations, and it is not easy.

Yours,

Alvaro 

What ?!  Fourteen francs ?!  This is seriously putting me off from attending glocal events or meeting glocal people.  Does anyone have any shame ?

I have myself been organizing events in different capacities since I was a kid.  While I dont know this guy, I can empathize with him.  Things do not always go as planned, and usually the organizer picks up the tab...  Without even receiving a thank you for organizing something fun.  I have seen it far too often.

When you are in a group and the bill comes, people pay their share but realize they are a few dollars short, what do they do ?  There are two kinds of people.  Some say they paid what was right and refuse to pay more.  Others (usually including the group organizer) just put a few dollars more.  It is just not worth spoiling a good time with quarrels about a few dollars.  But here it seems most peple are of the first type.

13.90 CHF X 18 = 250 CHF

Still hoping most of it goes to Africa, but will follow people's requests if otherwise.  If you feel that you cannot trust that the 13.90CHF will end up in a good cause, then you need to communicate this to me personally. Just email me a scanned copy of the payment you sent me, with a note requesting a refund of the 13.90CHF, signed and dated. You have time till June 2nd to do that. You should have received the tranfer 3 days later (June 5th). Feel free to give it to the charity of your choice and post here your receipt.

By the way, since I worked in Africa for five years and know these charities really make a difference in people's lives, I would like to offer 50 francs for this project.  Alvaro please contact me.

Instead of spending time on this thread, why not just work one hour extra and donate some money to help the lives of African kids ?

Thank you Maurizio. I am spending hourS in this thread to reply to all the many criticisms I have received. I would have much rather used it to do 1000 other things. But then I would have been succesfully bullied.

SHIT!!!!

Just seen Nir's note about the thread closing tomorrow and I SO don't want to be out of pocket, so here's my "financials".  But quick everyone, only a few hours to claim back your CHF14 and don't forget to be TRANSPARENT!!

On 2nd April, I paid Alvaro CHF340.   CHF250 + 90 single room supplement for 2 nights accommodaion.

That is CHF170 for bed and breakfast per night.

Before transferring the money to Alvaro, I checked the hotel’s website for the same dates.  Their best rate was CHF226.69 per night, per person, for bed and breakfast.

Already I’m in profit by CHF113.38.  So I pressed the “no brainer” button and signed up.  This is without the trips, petrol, good company (priceless - thank you Roman, Deepak, Destendipity, Ocio Sano, Ale, buzzcocks, PaulD D, Lucie and the 2 Anna's), hiking, lunches, dinner, city sight-seeing tour aside…..  However I would like to deduct the following from this saving:

CHF 1.86 (EUR1.5) metro from Milan station to the hotel. Alvaro clearly stated that transfers would only be offered to the first 9 people who signed up.  I was in the first 9 to sign up as Anna R’s spreadsheet will show.

Activity Group B – Hike and Via Ferratta.  I couldn’t do the Via Ferratta because of my vertigo so did the first part of the hike with the others, then continued the hike whilst the others did their VF.  As a consequence of a thunderstorm delaying the VF, I had to wait at the Refuge for over 1 hour and incurred a cost of a cappuccino at CHF 4.97 (EUR 4 – a bit over the top, but it was at the top of a mountain).

Activity Group B – Lunch.  In spite of advising that I was gluten intolerant, Alvaro bought Bread, Dried Meat and Cheese and Sweets for lunch.  So I would like a refund of 1/4 for the lunch – let’s say CHF 2 – the average price of a roll of bread. 

Boat Trip – I know this was never promised as a “paid for” activity but for recompense for it not going ahead because the Via Ferrata was delayed due to a thunderstorm, I feel you should be able to claim recompense from God.  It was God's fault, so if, Alvaro, you get reimbursed, I’ll take 1/6th.  Cheers. (Unknown amount – as up to God.)

Saturday evening dinner – listed as “included but optional” – I take that as “if you turn up it’s free, if not sort yourself out”.  I signed up/turned up.  Had 4 different types of pizza, a seafood salad, a LARGE glass of wine (don’t you love these Italians!!) and a desert.

Not bad for “free”.

However I WOULD like recompense as I had indigestion all night, having had to sit and listen to the negative, venomous bitching of a certain group of five girls, (more than one of whom is listed on this thread) about how their day had been “ruined” (photos say otherwise, however…..) by Alvaro's lack of planning. 

Approximate cost of eating out by myself?  Let’s go mad and deduct CHF 24.85 (EUR20.00)

Sunday morning activity – tour of the town centre.  Apparently some are claiming that the terraces of the Duomo were included in the “package”, so in the spirit of the post, I would like my CHF8.69 (EUR7) reimbursed.

So given all of the above, from my original saving, I’m out of pocket by CHF42.87.

In the spirit of this thread (i.e. calculations being done on the true value of everything that was and was not included), this means that I owe you CHF 71.09.  Please send me your bank details so that I can pay back this amount.

Bollocks – I’m now going to have to help fund some poor little African kid’s education.

Sometimes life is SOOOOOO unfair.

If like Maurizio you wish to donate some money to my fund, please feel free to email me directly.

ALL donations will be added to this document:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Av6bo8Jfsq5adHRXTVFTRDByOUNCR2RNT3ZLSTZjRWc&usp=sharing#gid=0

You can have your name in the list, a nickname or just a code. The point of having this in this PUBLIC file is that anyone can check the final amount and all individuals can check their donations are there.

 I will not be able to give you a Swiss Charity registration number, but will be able to post here a picture with many happy people who thanks to this donation can make their life’s and that of others better. 

If you want to follow this project in more detail, join us here:

http://www.educationalpaths.com/en/educationalpathsaroundtheworld.htm

I'll double Maurizio's offer - anyone else?  BTW - lets make this a new, POSITIVE, community spirited thread - purlease....   If anyone wants to PM me to obtain the bank details for this "project", then please do so. Love and Lightness xox

Are you actually giving yourself a refund too?

Nice. This says volumes about your ethics. 

Congratulations. That was pretty slick. 

Thank you Carolyn. 

I am glad indeed that this thread can be turned into a new POSITIVE one.

:)

No Roman. I am not giving myself a refund. My 13.90 CHF goes to Africa. As I said only the money that people ask me to be sent to them will be deducted from the original 250CHF....

... and it looks like we have already 150CHF more from Maurizio and Carolyn :)

In response to a rather (previous) and accusatory post, Roman defended me, saying I was a living saint (although that was probably a mispelling and he meant to say stain) who always saw the best in people (so untrue, there are some right twats out there!!).

However, everything aside, Roman is a tremendous defendant of all that is wrong in our society and in life.  He is also great fun.   I also hold true to the fact the Roman tries to see the best in people, is an enormously kind and generous person and a large part of this post has come from Roman trying to support "the little man" and wanting to be a benefactor and hero to those who felt "hard done by".  He's just trying to be a Hero.

Ironically, both Roman and Alvaro are actually coming from the same altruistic, philanthropic mindset and are probably more closesly aligned to each others beliefs and principles than they think.

Time to give each other some time out, some mutual respect, and a great big snog xxxxx

Alvaro you owe me 20 francs for not having stated earlier that this was a ridiculus 13.90 !, but I would like to donate 50 to your project, so I donate 30. 
Please get in touch with me. 

Brother. You are hysterical. Brazen and slick as greased lightening. 

You actually gave yourself a cut. And your girlfriend too. RFLMAO!

Man you are piece of work. You're my new hero hustler. 

 "never exceeds 125 euros per person during peak season"

Thank you Maggy for backing up the financial arguement.    I agree with a lot of your comments,  however:

125 euros per person per night - with the best case scenario  that means for a shared twin room it will "never" (your words) exceed EUR250 for the room per night.  Alvaro was "only" charging EUR 250 per person for 2 nights.... 

I've worked in events and know that Milan hotel prices are some of the most expensive (most ripped off) in Europe and these are actually 2* prices, not 4* (breakfast included) prices.  Thank you for sharing

Following Carolyn's idea to turn this thread into a POSITIVE one, and since this thread will be gone tomorrow, I have reated 

"How to contribute to a POSITIVE GLOCALS COMMUNITY?"

http://www.glocals.com/forums/general/185462.htm

Thanks Carolyne for your inspiration.

Hello, now I have read this all, it's a lot!  It looks all ok for most people and some good feelings.  I think only that money is a cover for emotions, so good to be very clear, transparent with money, each can choose what to do with their money always.  I hope Alvaro gets good money for his charity, and maybe do a good spreadsheet also.

lol...you just proved what piece of work you are!!! I think going public with such insane issue was afterall a good idea! :)

It was indeed a fun lazy Sunday reading this non-sense :) Cut down on one pizza or a couple of beers in coming days and you'll earn back your 14 CHF...does that sound fair enough to have a good night sleep?! People like you are ruining good things for others.

I am sorry for my self got invloved in a fight for 14 CHF. 

Never ever back ro this type of forum! 

I meant 125 euros per person for 2 nights... (either hotel website or booking.com)

I have no idea how much was actually paid. Maybe that week end was particularly crowded and the rooms got more expensive...

I hope everyone ensd up happy after this long thread. I was only giving my opinion based on what both sides said on their posts. I am sure Alvaro was trying to do something good, and the complainers probably just wanted transparency.

Yes Maggie. For some reason that weekend was particularly busy. As I wrote in most of my very long and useless messages above, on Saturday night there was not even a single bed free. We were lucky to have breackfast without having to queue, after us, people had to queue for 10 minutes as you do in very popular restaurants. Any of the attendants can verify this.

Sue, I am also very glad the "owed" amount (13,90 CHF) wasn't known initially so that we could all see each one's true nature.

The truth is that it was known. This thread originated in my post in the events page to let people know what I was going to do with the 250CHF. All I added was a simple division (I used my calculator for that :)

In my opinion size does not matter (LOL). The point is that presumption of innocence was not present in the accusations, and I hope many have learned something form that.

I am glad it happened this way because I have learned a lot myself. And from now on I will try to make sure people know the choices I can provide for them. The more the better.

So far only one person has claimed the 13.90 CHF and three people have volunteered to donate more 50 + 100 + 30 = 180 CHF

I still believe that the TRUE nature of many of the people who posted negative coments in this thread is actually POSITIVE, and I am hoping that the new forum beats this one in posts:

http://www.glocals.com/forums/general/How-to-contribute-to-a-POSITIVE-GLOCALS-COMMUNITY--185462.htm

Hi Maggy,

Many thanks Maggy for this info.

So room for me is 125€.- (as I shared the room for two nights) plus dinner (let's say 20.-€)-Total: 145.-€ (174.-CHF).

I paid 250.-CHF for the whole weekend.

Finally, I personnally lost estimated 76.-CHF.

Good to know.

Virginie

This is bizarre to say the least. But this is about principle, not money. 

No offence to those who are piling onto Roman here, but:

- he didnt feel he had any other choice  
- did not know the exact amount being argued over or anyone else (except Alvarro), they just knew things were not delivered as promised. (we are still taking this amount on his word, and not receiving a paid for ticket, means you had to pay 2x in the end)

This could have all been sorted out within 5mins and none of this ridiculousness would have occured. Now who's head does that blame fall on?

Secondly, despite it being for a good cause, it does not negate the fact that:
- the choice wasnt given
- the simple calculation wasn't done, and for the life of me,
- I can't see something that be considered a proper apology from Alvarro for at least his first few essays.

Only deflection and subterfuge which seems decidedly ridiculous that you would have come out so much better if you had just mentioned the sum and offered up options (at least one of which being a refund).
 

Carolyn, I applaud the peacekeeping, and understand the theory, but a price promised at x time, is not comparable to a price at y time. Otherwise everything is a complete bargain in comparison to airports and new years eve.

Really, if you didnt know how much you were owed, and the person was ducking you and others while spinning these wacky convoluted messages, then I'm sure you would be a little peeved off too. And on reading his original message, he came here to look for advice and kept it anonymous. He only seems to have sharpened his tongue on a return message from Alvarro. 

Roman did offer up a rather sincere and deep apology to which Alvarro's response was apothetic to say the least. To have a go at someone and say that you are apologising in the same message, well in my book that isnt an apology. 

Sorry to go on, but on the final stretch...

This isn't just about money, for someone I dont know to tell me they are donating my money to a charity which isnt trackable is asking for trust and faith, especially after failing to deliver on some promises. When this person avoids answering very simple questions, then doubts arise. 

Charity is a personal choice. It is very personal in fact. One can not and should not be guilted into any specific kind of charity. So far, some of these comments are very much the equivilant of posting an african childs picture and saying 'how dare you not let the money come to me?' For all you know anyone in this thread could do more for charity than all of us put together, and you'd never know.

For all those claiming that there are better things to do that forums, this will disuade anyone thinking of trying to be less than benevolent in their future dealings with glocals members. Because as we have seen, you will be outed and made to answer.

Only my opinion but unfortunately Alvarro, you have done nothing to make me think better of you. I'm sure you are a nice guy, but i've had people owe me money before and when they dont have it, or are trying not to repay, they offer up exactly what you have, everything but the money and most importantly, a sincere apology for their behaviour.

Oh and Alvarro, the presumption of innocence fades when you admit you have people's money for not delivering and offer no option but your charity. Being an organiser is a tough and admirable choice, but it comes with risks of stress and being out of pocket. The choice to join an event does not (or at least should not). 

And Sue, if you think you can gauge someones true self from an internet forum, good luck with that! 

I'm so glad people will shy away from speaking up in the future because the fear of being lambasted by others due to what they consider is little money. 

How Roman is being made to look culpable here is hilarious. How dare you ask for your money or transparency!?

Dear Nir,

Thank you for your wonderful site, which I adore!
Let me go straight to the point.
May I ask you if in your email correspondence with Alvaro, he presented you the invoices for the expenses paid and the cost break-down between the attendees, where he arrives at the CHF 14 figure per person? Or is this number based on Alvaro's good intuition?

I am just anal like that and prefer facts over stories. :-)

Regards and utmost respect,
Anna

Farzam,

It's cool man. I can take the heat. I am big boy, not a crybaby.

But I appreciate your Spock like viewpoint on this issue. 

Alvaro already paid me out. All I had to do was beg him for it. 

Hope to meet you someday. 

Rock on.

Roman

And at the end, the winner is….. Lucie!  Thanked 14 times! 

Thank you very much Lucie for your post!  As I told you, it gives me the impression that I didn’t had a dream…  I was also in Milano and experienced same things…  But maybe we had the same dream because of sharing the same room?  Or maybe I also had that dream….? ;)

What a disgusting forum, what a loss of time, of energy of positive things that most of you would have been able to do instead of this…!!

In short, I’ve been in Milano, I didn’t know any of the participants before coming, and really enjoyed that weekend!

One of the most interesting part of the event was, for me, the mixed of people and possible activities.  Mixed of "nature and adventurous” oriented people with more “shopping” and/or “easy walk” ones. 

Good idea Alvaro, very good one, maybe crazy, for sure risky, as we can see ! 

It would have been easier for you to made it only for yours, only for VFting people, but you mixed people!  Thank you very much for that! 

During the weekend I made many friends, we had (or it was maybe a dream?) a lot of fun! Isn’t it?  I heard some little complaint about the timing for the dinner, about Alvaro’s style, about you too Roman and your proposed night city tours, …  but so little and so positive faces enjoying the moments…  It was an exceptional weekend!  Thanks to all of us!

So when I saw this forum, the criticism, the attacks…  I really couldn’t imagine that such good moments could come into this!!!  Incredible!  Disgusting!

I made new friends, like you Alvaro, and you too Roman!

I’m finishing…  be patient, but some additional words about Alvaro.

I didn’t know you before.  I had during Milano trip, and after, on another event you organized, the opportunity to know you and little by little to know you better!  I can say that you are an exceptional person!  Giving your time for organizing, a lot of your time and friendly!  Trying to find a solution when things are not going as foreseen or expected (waiting for me and encouraging in the downhill after the VF, being stressed for Carolyn, proposing alternatives when weather conditions are playing with us, helping to find a more appropriate VF when the one you were doing seemed to be too difficult for her and myself, …).

During the different situations I had the opportunity to share with you, I cans say I trust on you!  I can!  But please, could i ask you a favor?  Your driving style in the mountains... ;)  Could you adapt it? Next time I would take mine... ;)

Sorry you had to manage this “forum” situation!  Not fair, in my opinion, not justified at all!

I hope you will finally have more time for you, for more interesting activities, to relax maybe, and for your project I’m supporting!

I wish you all a very good night and sweat dreams… 

Milano wasn’t a dream!  It was an incredible good reality thanks to all of you and especially to you, Alvaro!

The montary amount is not relevant. I'd caution many of you about the precedant you seem to be setting and championing - that organisers can 1) keep excess funds belonging to event participants, 2) choose to spend those funds on their own interests and 3) not provide an evidential breakdown of those excess funds when asked to.

At the risk of repeating myself, participants should not have to ask the organiser for the return of the excess funds. The funds should simply be returned to all parties who are owed, and in this case, with a short, concise, sincere, unreserved apology for creating this conflict and suspicion about money in our community, that is so dependent on trust and goodwill.

The presumption of innocence is not relevant to people asking for clarity of financial information, when they have financial transactions with you. It's good sense, and means noone is blindsided in a transaction. When it doesn't have to be chased, this transparency fosters relationships between people.

To the organiser, can you please return all of the excess funds to the relevant participants, and provide the detailed evidential breakdown of monies owed, as you have been asked by the aggrieved?

Everybody could have his own opinion on a same reality!  Of course!  Many of my "Milano" new friends had a different one than mine.  No problem at all!  But please stop accusing and asking for a return on about 14 CHF...  Not serious, quite ridiculous too?  Isn't it?

Respect?  Please, some respect for a guy, a friend who take a lot of time before, during and after the event he organised for us, not for him!!!  Please, respect to him! 

He has other things to do than being on this forum, justifying himself, continuously apologizing, having to respond to transparency in costs, in calculations, ... 

Come on and stop with this!  It was a good weekend, at a good price too.  You knew the price before coming, no obligation to come, ... Some of you were planing, from the very begining to make your own plans, using your cars, going for shoping, proposing an alterntive restaurant for dinner, ...  So please stop! 

After being so disgusting, this forum is becoming quite ridiculous, with so many interventions in so many directions...

In case of you really would ask for a refund, please be reasonable, and maybe ask to a "mediator" as Carolyn, or another one who propose his/her help in this matter.  Alvaro is not a travel agency, he never intented to be, ... 

Glocals and this forum: a good illustration on what this kind of medium can offer!  From one side, events, organisers, friends, ... and on the other side this kind of ...

Second and last intervention on this forum I wouldn't have seen and I really  won't see anymore!  CU

Haha damn right ....best comment of this thread award goes to you :) 

If you read first 8 msgs of the thread it seemed like we are talking abt 100 plus n there was no mention of principle til msg 9 

Sorry, very last one!

Do you think that after this, one of you, one of us, or others will take (easily) the risk and responsability to organise this kind of event in the future (foreign country, not known participants, ...)? 
I remember we spoke, during the weekend and with some of you, about organising such a weekend in Barcelona, ...  For sure, after this, I wouldn't do it anymore!