I think it's appalling that people think like that.

I don't care how a woman dresses, nor how she acts. When she says no it's no and you should back off!

Not only blaming men by the way. There are loads of women out there being judgemental about other women. That's why we are stuck in this loop of negative thinking. And I think this is the main reason why it is so hard for us to reach gender equality.

So ladies: please think next time before calling someone a "slut". (Or even worse: blaming someone for getting raped.)

This is not acceptable!!!

I hear other men make sexist remarks about women every day of the week.  I do it too.  But when push comes to shove, nearly all of us would fall on a grenade to protect them.  Well, most of them.  OK, many of them. 

I can't say the same thing for women and their regard for other women.  They are like crabs in a pot, dragging each other back into the pot so that none can escape.

Provocative post Isabella - or is that a "slutty post" - as provocative and slutty may mean the same??.  Tough call.  Good luck with your responses  and well done for posting.  I wouldn't be that brave (or does "brave" = "provocative/slutty"  in this strange and distorted world that we live in..... 

To be honest though, if having a "slut walk" in Geneva (or anywhere else on this Lonely Planet) was seen as a protest against wearing the burqa (which in 50 years time will be the law - like it or not sweeties - we will all be muslim by then) then, Isabella - I will walk with you tomorrow! Anytime!

Phew - Right now, I almost  wish I was down the Fishermans with the Nyon boys talking about football!! :-) x

This 'negativity' you hear around the word slut is one of the problems. The word is, indeed, historically negative, but the practice it describes, polyamory, is not.

Even if a certain dress style is considered provocative, it is at most a communication that a woman is interested in sex. It does not communicate that she is interested in being raped. "Your mouth says no but your clothes say yes," is not a valid argument. No, Nien, or Non, is No, and that's the end of it.

@ Carolyn; I love your cat. Reminds of mine who is back home and whom I miss so much!

But its meant to be a very common fantasy for women to want to be raped.

Read Nancy Friday - My Secret Garden and rape is just one of the many taboos that women fantasise about

BS about the burqa - you know tptb are just playing off people against each other - We will all be Muslim ...do you actually have a clue?

Sadly it is true that some women participate in hurting other women... It all starts with education... a lot of women still train their boys to be little machos and don't teach them to treat the other sex as equal...

But reading at your reply and the one of Richard, I couldn't help but thinking... isn't that another way of blaming women...?

BS - we are human - and women DO actually have an interest in sex...nowhere near as much as men which is what this is all about...in fact a womans ONLY real goal is to be sexually desirable...the rest is just intellectualising life

Yes but rape is not sex but violence. The fun stops when one of the persons says NO.

Of course women want to be desirable. So do men. BUT

NOBODY DESERVES SEXUAL ASSAULT

No matter what...

We prefer to ignore it in our everyday life Carolyn, but as you say the world we live in is far from being Lalaland...

Check the numbers:

"Up to six out of every ten women experience physical and/or sexual violence in their lifetime. Domestic violence is the biggest cause of injury and death to women around the globe, killing more women aged 15-44 than cancer, traffic accidents and war. [UN statistics].

In France, every two hours a woman gets raped, but this number could be higher since not all victims report to the police [Le Figaro, 2011]. According to official statistics from the Service des droits des femmes et de l’égalité, 140 women died in 2009 in France, victims of domestic violence, every 2.5 days a woman dies from violent behaviors."

http://womenvoiceswomenfaces.wordpress.com/2011/05/14/violence-against-women-the-numbers-are-frightening/

Then, serial killers are rarely women. They usually are the victims. I bet these women in Long Island weren't killed by another woman and so do the profilers apparently: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/22/long-island-serial-killer_n_852536.html

Interesting article BTW

Carolyn, I love you.

To all the women on Glocals: please don't bother replying to any of Leo's posts unless you deliberately want to be wound up.

As a Muslim (albeit not an orthodox one), I can tell you there are loads of us around who don't wear the burqa!

And you certainly are a Muslim beauty who deserves to show it and enjoy it. I have spent a lot of time in a muslim country and read and discussed a lot to understand the customs and religion but honestly, I never understood what good the burqa does to women despite all the arguments I was given. Actually, I am quite convinced it is an offense to women. And wearing it in a Western country is pure provocation. It doesn't protect women, it attracts the attention on them.

Izzie you are too kind. If you really want to get into this discussion, it has been thrashed ad nauseum in the politics forum under 'Ban the Veil'! Enjoy! Furthermore, I'm happy to meet you for coffee and discuss it at a personal level!

Have a nice sunny weekend!

Izzie, I wish I could just blame this all on men, but that wouldn't be fair. True, most men are horndogs who think with their head instead of their other head. And rapists are usually men and there is absolutely no excuse for their actions.

Butttttt... We women should take some responsibility too when it comes to changing the public opinion about this subject. For example: when a guy brags to his friends that he slept with 3 different women in one week they applaude him. When a girl tells her (female!) friends that she slept with 3 different men in one week, they might smile in her face, but are very likely to call her slut behind her back.

See this article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1251040/Rape-Its-fault-victims-say-50-women.html

Not saying that we should all start sleeping around and act like most men do, but we should stop being so judgemental.

when did i say that women deserve to be raped...which part of ANY post says that? You are reading in what you want to read

Prove that I am wrong

Maybe I should dig out the stats

But hey I dont blame you for being annoyed about exposing one of womens little secrets

I would watch what you are posting...its quite deranged

well religions have an uncanny habit of imposing stupid 'rules' on people as religions are control freakery to the point of absurdity...but thats a different argument

luckily more people are switching away from the BS of religion, thank God

science and rationality v God...the big guy loses

grow up kiddies God doesnt exist and should be consigned to the scrapbooks

Wearing a burqa upsets people in the west simply as it irrtates small minded racists looking for anything to attach their hatred to

Izzie, those stats seem odd.  Which UN agency are they from?

Ignoring what seems to be a fight between some individuals here, I'd like to comment on the slutwalk. I went to the slutwalk in Stockholm and it is a really great thing to stand up for I think!

Especially here in Switzerland I cannot walk the streets without some idiot who follows his dick coming after me with a "ca va cherie ca va" followed by a "why are you walking away?" as he follows me. Or the cars that honk at you or have guys hanging out the windows shouting various things at you. Thanks for making me feel cheap like a common prostitute.

I must admit this happens no matter what I wear, but it certainly happens more if I wear a short skirt!

You know maybe I'm not wearing a short skirt because I am looking for sex, maybe it's just the middle of the day and it is hot as hell!

I know this is absolutely not the same as full-blown rape, but it is not normal and it displays a certain view of women.

And even when I wear 'slutty' clothes or whatever you want to call it on my night out and I was indeed looking for sex, I have a right to chose!

And I definitely think we should have a Swiss slutwalk!

Hi folks,

I removed some posts on this thread and suspended the account of one of the posters.

Please keep the discussions civil and respectful.

Thanks

Oded

Very interesting thread, I have to admit I have never heard of the Slutwalk before, so my question for Sandrine, and Izzie:

What would you like to achieve out of this Slutwalk in Geneva, and how do you "educate" the general public watching you about what it is your are doing, and trying to achieve? Coz otherwise it does'nt serve its purpose does it?

Do you distribute flyers? How do you create the awareness?

Is this an women only activity, or can men support you in your cause as well?

Cheers;

Andras

http://www.slutwalktoronto.com/satellite/set-up-a-satellite may be of use.

Can someone move this post to the politics or "I am sexually frustrated" section of the forums?

I don't mind at all saying that I agree wholeheartedly with Chris Shailos on this point 

Switzerland is a conservative society, which unfortunately appears often to be linked to a certain view of women.  I'm therefore not surprised that no slut walk has been organised here, but I AM surprised, and even a little dismayed, if the movement has not even made it into the news here.

Andrash,  slutwalks have attracted huge amounts of media interest around the world, so there has hardly been any need to distribute flyers.  Think of it as a bit like gay pride: a fundamentally joyous walk through town, wearing what you want, but with a serious political message.  The reporters take care of the rest.  And of course it is not a "women only" event -- men have most definitely been welcome, wherever they have been organised.

Well I have never organized one, just participated. But the actual walk is like a demonstration with banners, chants and things like that. So that in itself sends a message. Also there is usually some publication and media around it. Because you are right, if you cannot convey your message there's no point.

And regarding men joining the cause there were quite a lot of men joining in as well. I'll admit quite a lot of them were wearing short skirts as well, but there was a wide mix of people as well as dress.

It's good to see a man reacting to the actual message rather than the short skirts :)

"Especially here in Switzerland I cannot walk the streets without some idiot who follows his dick coming after me with a "ca va cherie ca va" followed by a "why are you walking away?" as he follows me. Or the cars that honk at you or have guys hanging out the windows shouting various things at you. Thanks for making me feel cheap like a common prostitute."

I agree witheverything you said. Although please explain the above quote. How can those actions make you feel cheap? They are some idiots who just give you attention. Ok it is unwanted attention but why does this influence the way you feel?

I feel cheap because they treat me like I'm cheap. I feel treated like a piece of meat and I also feel like I am wearing something somehow too revealing due to this. It just makes me feel very disrespected. Also I wonder what it is exactly they aim to achieve with this? Do they really think I'm cheap and easy enough to actually react to those things in a positive way?

"The human race has one really effective weapon, and that is laughter - Mark Twain"

That's what your status line says and I think it's true.  

I can understand that being disrespected can make one feel bad. In many cultures we grow up with practices rooted in shaming women as a form of control. 

I think most of these men didn't have parents who taught them to respect women.

I wouldn't even try to get into their heads and ask those questions. They are the ones with the problem, not you.

Thanks, you make a good point :)

Still, they kind of make it my problem when they invade my privacy, so it's not like you can just let it be...

You have to pick your battles, right? And sometimes some well placed ridicule hits the target! Hollaback! (If it's safe...)

Here's some light humor on the subject:

OK.. now I know, why roadwork takes so long..

I AM surprised, and even a little dismayed, if the movement has not even made it into the news here.

It has.

http://www.ihollaback.org/

And for those who were wondering why it has become a worldwide movement or why its is so upsetting to be disrepescted or made to feel cheap by the actions of morons...read this:

http://hollaback-uk.blogspot.com/

http://ldn.ihollaback.org/

interesting stories...

Sandrine,

It is quite common in some countries that they guys take notice of you and they whistle just to show they like what they see....It is just an idiot way of showing that you are pretty.

I understand that you may feel ackward but cheap??

....and honestly with or without slut walk you will still get these reactions. I think this really depends on the intelligence of the man and not on a slut walk.

And most men are opportunist....so I do not pay attention to such comments.

There has been a post some time ago posted by a Finnish girl making very similar comments about "her privacy being broken" by guys trying to contact her via glocals.

We all learnt that from that post that our tolerance level is also dependent on the culture we are coming from.

What is huritng you and making you feel cheap, maybe just a very natural thing in a more Southern country and there it only maked women laugh a bit...

I do agree that violence should be fought against but to restrict everything just because not the right guy said hello why they walked by...well, I do not think so.

I loved it in Paris when I was still married and was walking around when my husband had to stay long in the office, that many old and young men smiled at me and said "Bon jour".

And nothing more happened.

I smiled and had a good day enjoying that someone was smiling at me.

Take it as a compliment that does not need a respond when someone says hello.

Reka,

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you.  There is a big cultural element in what is tolerated, it is not just a question of the level of intelligence of the guy in question.

And yes, these comments will still be made after a slutwalk.  But maybe a few less of them.  It is all part of a campaign of awareness and education.  Probably in a more "southern" country (as you call it) the guys think they are indeed complimenting women with their catcalls and the like.  It is about time they were told that they are not.

The men who are receptive to the message of the "slut walk" aren't the ones causing the problem.

The men who are causing the problem wouldn't be receptive to the message of the slut walk.

I've seen some of the media coverage of other such slut walks and all I can see are women acting like idiots.  Those women who have made this activity possible are spinning in their grave over this blasphemous mockery.

David Chapelle say's it all...

There's never an excuse to physically abuse anyone, and certainly no excuse for rape, even if a woman is "provocatively" dressed (what's provocative being subjective).  However, when a woman dresses in a way that highlights physical attributes that are considered sexually attractive, she shouldn't be surprised by compliments--different from insults, but also subjective.  Would it be odd for a guy to be tempted to flirt with a woman who chooses the name "babylicious" for herself, to mistakenly think that she is being suggestive (didn't make that mistake personally)?  

As humans, like all animals and many plants, we are driven by basic primordial instincts that perpetuate life, lest we cease to exist. Females attempt to attract the male with the strongest genes; males attempt to mate with as many females as possible--humans have developed a number of ways to regulate this for the good of "civilization" and in some cases even reversed it.  What's the appropriate balance? Depends on the society...

Well you are right that it is common in some countries, because there is indeed a cultural element to it. But I do not see it as a way to show you that you are pretty. How you can take this as a compliment is beyond me.

But maybe you are right, you don't change these things with one slutwalk. But it is a strong feeling to publicly stand up for yourself and your cause. And if you manage to change one person because of it, it is already an improvement.

And for the record, I try to ignore these comments, but when guys follow you around on the street continuing along the lines of "why are you walking away" when you are walking home alone in the middle of the night, it's not a very safe feeling...

To the Chapelle video I have one thing to say: I don't dress that provocatively first of all. And second, I have had these problems when I wear just jeans and a top... really some men will try to find any excuse.

Like I said previously, this happens to me even when I am not showing much skin at all.

Also, this 'biological' need of men to fuck around is a bunch of bullshit. I like to think we have evolved a bit further from the biological need to spread our seed.

Ok you might have a point in the fact that men who are causing the problem are not receptive to the message. However, that doesn't mean you can't still try.

And if I understand you correctly, you are referring to the original feminists when you refer to the "women who have made this activity possible". And I think they would support a cause of trying to make it safer for women on the streets, regardless of what they are wearing.

I'll admit some of the participants in the Slutwalks take that idea quite far, but the goal is the same.

Sandine, I agree with the walk.  I disagree with your evaluation of how far we've evolved.  Many would like to think we have evolved further then we obviously have.  Herein lies the problem.  

Just my thoughts on this. No 1 and most importantly - I wouldn't wish any assault of any kind on any women. And yes, it would be great if all women could wear anything, anytime and go wherever they please but sadly the world isn't like that. Sick individuals exists and all the 'slut walks' in the world won't change that.

Just one other question I have: given the increased focus on violent crime in Geneva at the moment, do you think advocating the cause of women being empowered to wear whatever and whenever they want, when even men are having the living shit beaten out of them on a regular basis here, could be argued is maybe not the best suggestion right now?

Please believe me, I'm not trying to be controversial and as I said at the start of this post, God forbid anything should happen to any woman - in Geneva (or anywhere) if possible. However, I believe an element of this comes down to personal judgment as well as to the places you go, when you go and also what you wear. I honestly believe that ignoring that element is not the best course of action.

Stay safe,

Rich

Wow, where is this topic heading? I don't think a slut walk is meant to stop men from making sexists remarks. This is about putting a stop to excusing RAPE! See the wiki:

"The SlutWalk protest marches began on April 3, 2011 in Toronto, Canada, and became a movement of rallies across the world. Participants protest against explaining or excusing rape by referring to any aspect of a woman's appearance."

No doubt that men can be annoying as hell with their remarks, but (no offense) if you feel cheap due to a remark like "ca va cherie ca va" then you really have some issues I think. In Holland we say: that's why we've got two ears: one for in and one for out.

If you are spending 30 minutes or more in front of the mirror trying to look good and you go out and a guy confirms that you are actually looking good, you shouldn't feel offended. Maybe the way he makes this known to you doesn't suit you, but look at it this way: some men are just plain helpless. Not all of them are smooth talkers (thank god!). Because I'm sure that if a good looking guy in a suit comes up to you and tells you in a decent way that you are looking good, you will like it.

By the way, I think the main reason why they react to you like that is not the way you dress, but the simple fact that you're blond (and probably not hard on the eyes either). One of my best friends is blond and guys will just throw remarks at her after only seeing the back of her head, believe it or not. True, she is beautiful, but I have seen on multiple occasions guys already with their tongue on their knees after seeing her blond hairs only and nothing else. And this is especially the case in more southern countries, as it is more rare. So just learn to ignore it and use your two ear (one in, one out).

Back to the slut walk. I wouldn't participate if it was organized in Geneva, even though I support what it stands for. I wouldn't even consider it before I'm familiar with:

A. the numbers on rape in Geneva/Switzerland, and;

B. the public opinion about rape in Geneva/Switzerland (No reason for me to participate in a slut walk if everyone here already thinks that rape is inexcusable, no matter the circumstances.)

Well, richardm, you make quite a leap there by using "shaming" language --"all I can see are women acting like idiots" as well as making broad assumptions about how feminists (primarily white) might view "slutwalks."

In addition, your earlier link to an blog post about how women verbally abuse each other has little credibility given that the same blogger has a rating scale for men and women.

There are some interesting feminist critiques out there about the concept and execution of "slutwalks," some of which can be found here:

http://www.feministfrequency.com/2011/05/link-round-up-feminist-critiques-of-slutwalk/

Thanks for raising the topic, Izzie.

My opinion would be yes, only if such an event leads to the following activities:

a) encouraging more women to take self-defense classes to deal with street harassment as well as more serious sexual harassment and sexual violence;

b) strengthening of financial and other support for local organizations designed to assist victims of sexual assault and domestic violence;

c) periodic review of effectiveness of police and judicial procedures wrt sexual and domestic violence.

IMO, the best thing that has come out of the original "slutwalk" is the highlighting of certain attitudes held by certain policemen in Toronto.  Past that, we can't really evalute at this point.

There is a very interesting French movement that predates "slutwalks" called "Ni Putes Ni Soumises" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ni_Putes_Ni_Soumises

Here is another excellent critique of the "slutwalk" concept.

http://feministing.com/2011/05/18/slutwalk-to-march-or-not-to-march/

Hmmm... some "interesting statements there..."

1) "...Because I'm sure that if a good looking guy in a suit comes up to you and tells you in a decent way that you are looking good, you will like it."

How do you know? That is quite an assumption. A creep is a creep is a creep. And we know the difference between a simple, nice polite hello and the up-and-down, once over look.

2) "By the way, I think the main reason why they react to you like that is not the way you dress, but the simple fact that you're blond (and probably not hard on the eyes either)."

Er, um, Switzerland is not exactly a "southern" country. And how does this statement account for the fact that non-blondes are also being harassed and raped?

Most Dutch I know are pretty astute. They have two ears, yes, but they usually have a brain in between that keeps them from making such silly statements.

http://blog.turgot.org/index.php?post/Fantasmes-sur-la-f%C3%A9condit%C3%A9-musulmane

I think there is quite a big difference between being harassed and raped and just a simple "ca va cherie ca va". I was giving a possible explanation (see the: I THINK) for Sandrine receiving so many remarks, assuring her that it's probably not due to the way she dresses and therefore should not feel cheap. Not saying that non-blondes don't receive any remarks at all, nor that they are not being harassed and raped. And Switzerland might not be a "southern" country, but we do have a lot of immigrants in Geneva. Not that it really matters, because men also react to blond women more in Holland and there blondes are not as rare as for example in France or Italy. (And yeah, I'm not basing this on any study, just pure experience. Again, that's why I said "I think".)

As for knowing that she will like it if a good looking guy in a suit makes a decent compliment; you're right, I don't, that was just an assumption I made and I probably should have formulated it better. (But since English is not my mother tongue I guess you're just going to have to excuse me for sometimes missing the nuances in what I write.)

I just think it's amazing that we went from the subject of excusing rape (again, we were talking about RAPE) to having a discussion about whether or not it is acceptable if a guy says "ca va cherie ca va".

Coming back to the original question, should you organize a slut walk in geneva?

Please send me a message if you DO decide to do so, I actually live in Zürich, but should such an event be planned, I would love to support and bring a bunch of like minded folks from the German area!

Cheers;

Andras

I believe in the freedom of speech. I do not believe in violence (and thus: rape). I believe everyone should be able to do whatever they want, just as long as:

A. it makes them happy (sometimes people's actions are driven by the need to feel accepted and their actions do not always make them happy)

B. they don't hurt themselves or others physically and don't offend the majority of people (I say majority, because some people just always take offense)

When men make sexists remarks, I can imagine some women feel offended. It also depends on how and what kind of remarks are made. But I don't think it would be a good development to force these men not to say those things. I draw the line at touching without consent. Personally I'm able to live with the remarks (occasionally they even make me laugh despite myself).

To illustrate a nice movie with famous Dutch comedian Hans Teeuwen (don't worry; it's got English subs). It is not about rape, but about freedom of speech and people that take offense...

Aargh, I give up! If you want to see the video, just search on youtube for "Hans Teeuwen meiden van halal subs".

Why should it be amazing? If you read the actual text of the original SlutWalkToronto you will see the following:

"We are tired of being oppressed by slut-shaming; of being judged by our sexuality and feeling unsafe as a result. Being in charge of our sexual lives should not mean that we are opening ourselves to an expectation of violence, regardless if we participate in sex for pleasure or work. No one should equate enjoying sex with attracting sexual assault."

I do find it curious that a woman would tell another woman that she has some issues because she doesn't like being disrespected by men on the street.

In every modern legal system, freedom of speech has limits. These limits have been extended to the workplace where saying the equivalent of "ça va, cherie" is no longer acceptable, thank goodness.

As for agreeing to what the majority says, well, that can amount to mob rule and this is why majority rule must always be balanced with minority rights.

And by the way, the original poster's points for discussion were much broader than rape.

"However, I find the debate interesting because it also raises a few other questions:

1) Freedom: unless one lives alone on a desert island, isn't it a utopia to think we are totally free? How far our liberty to dress the way we want goes? What are the limits? Are there some universal rules?

2) Slut: this word sounds pretty strong and negative and this is probably why it provoked such a strong reaction in return. Doesn't the word itself imply the guilt of the women who get raped? If the policeman really wanted to give an advice to women, wouldn't he have chosen more paternalistic / protective words? I believe the definition of a slut depends on each individual. If I may venture one definition myself, I would say, somebody wearing a sexually provocative outfit. But then isnt' it rather difficult to know what one would find sexually appealing or not? From some discussions I had with some male friends it seems that "slutty" clothes are not always the most sexy. Then, why put the blame on clothes which do not make a woman more attractive. It seems that provocation evolves throughout the years. In the '80s, the punks were considered provocative however today, the burqa in the western world is more considered as such."

2 Live Crew offer a more respectable and elegant alternative to the word 'slut'.  Its called a "Hoochie Mamma"  

Not saying at all that she has issues because she doesn't like to be disrespected by men on the streets. I think none of us like that.

But if a "ca va cherie" makes you feel cheap, then yeah, maybe you should take a good look at yourself and try to be a little more indifferent to those kind of remarks.

I've had all sorts of remarks thrown at me. But the "wanna-fuck?"-ones didn't make me feel cheap or doubt my wardrobe and the "you're-ugly"-ones didn't make me feel ugly and neither did they make me want to try to kill myself.

Watch the video. Everyday we people get confronted with stuff that is being said that we don't like and that might offend us. But it is our own responsibility to shield ourselves against those things and just let it slide...

Laura,

Exactly what I was telling.

You are from Finland, I am from Hungary and if you ask a girl from Italy or Spain, it is likely that she will have a slightly different opinion.

I am not freaking out just because someone said hello to me on the street but interesting to see that people from more northern countries react very much like you.

I do think that men who are intelligent find a way to tell to a woman they like her in a pleasant way but more simple people with less sophisticated thinking with or without slut walk will still react the same way.

What is the proper way for a guy to compliment a woman?  Does culture matter or is the answer the same regardless?  Similarly, how should a woman compliment a man?  Is there a cultural nuance to that also, or should the same standard be applied everywhere?  Not talking sexual assault; talking verbal compliments.  Questions are as simple and incisive as they appear.

It's important to find the 'happy medium.'  On one end of the spectrum, any comment can be viewed as harrassment, which leads to unhealthy relationships in and out of the workplace.  The opposite extreme is obvious.  Somewhere in the middle is a recognition that men and women are generally attracted to each other, and in most cultures, women, from the time they are young girls, are generally taught to present themselves in a way men find attractive.  Some of that is cultural, some is biological.

Culturally, we have to be careful about stereotyping.  What, for example, is Southern country?  Do we under developed?  If so, in what way and by who's standards?  Somalia?  Indonesia?  Malaysia? Mali? or Austrialia?  In all but the last "southern" country, cat calls, etc are frowned upon.

Finally, as some have pointed out, before signing up for a slut walk in Geneva, it's important to identify the objective.  That objective, one would imagine, would be to address a specific local problem.  How prevalent is rape in Geneva?  Is it primarily based on the way women dress and focused on those in the sex industry; is it 'date rape;' is it in the household?  How prevalent is trafficing of females in Geneva?  Will the walk inadvertently reinforce that crime by endorsing the sex industry?

I don't know the answers to any of those personally, but with out them the walk is just a bunch of hot women walking down the street before everyone goes out to get a drink pick up on each other that evening (that's the way some guys and women respond to compliments).  Many will gather to watch the event, because it will be the largest collection of scantily dressed women ever to gather in a single Geneva location.  Thus, amongst those who's hearts are in the right place will also be the biggest collection of hypocrites ever gathered in one location, not to mention the non-hypocritical who make no bones about why they brought binoculars to the event.

It's unfortunate that the only ones who can address the matter head on are comedians. No one disagreed with Dave Chapelle...

@RobertC

"What is the proper way for a guy to compliment a woman?  Does culture matter or is the answer the same regardless?  Similarly, how should a woman compliment a man?  Is there a cultural nuance to that also, or should the same standard be applied everywhere?  Not talking sexual assault; talking verbal compliments.  Questions are as simple and incisive as they appear."

a) Ask yourself if you would say the same thing to your sister or your aunt or any other woman in your family to a woman you don't really know.

On the toughen up and "just let it slide" kind of approach. Well, women tried this for years with sexual harassment in the workplace.  Behaviors did not change significantly until laws came into force.

For years some women and men said rape within the marriage did not exist. Laws have changed, thank goodness.  Some people also wanted to let that slide.

Lordy - can't believe I'm back in this frey.....

To Robert C - I started off thinking a lot of what you said was interesting and justifiable and it was good that you put yourself out there and questioned some points and raised some points.    BUT, I'm afraid I stalled at the "no-one disagreed with Dave Chappelle" comment. 

Why?  Because its so insulting and stereotypical that we (women) chose to ignore it (note the lack of "thank poster").  It was relatively amusing to a point (but not really) until it got to the:

"you're not a whore, but you're wearing a whore's uniform" 'comedic ending'.

Oh my lord, how we all laughed our socks off at that little gem - Not.

You're obviously an intelligent guy, so I'm surprised you even began to find that funny - particularly in the concept of the post.

Over to you Valerie.....

@Translator,

Good point.  I agree that respect is universal.  However, I do not believe that the compliment one pays his mother or sister would be anything like that paid to a woman to whom one is attracted.  As for not knowing her, it is culturally acceptable to "break the ice" with a compliment--part of the human mating ritual.  So, to refine the question, what is the proper way for a guy to compliment a woman to whom he is attracted?  Should we not acknowledge and accept sexual attraction and allow women and men to express the same?

To Carolyn,

Sorry if I wasn't clear.  My point is that comedians can talk straight at the issue and make some laugh and all think.  

Well, you didn't accept one of the proposals I put forward to you.

"Wow, Sis, you look really nice today."

"Hi there, you look really nice today." To someone you don't know.

How would you strike up a conversation with a guy? Why do you think you have to start with some sort of "compliment" on her physical attributes?

The smartest guys actually know this. That is one reason they are never without company.

BTW in Switzerland:

current legal voting age:  18

current legal prostitution age: 16

Apparently the law is supposed to change soon however they've been saying that for years.

I think we're going a little off topic but to add to this:

I kiss my sisters on the lips when I meet them and nobody thinks I'm gay - I tell them they look beautiful and gorgeous because they are.  I meet my male friends in the same way - I kiss them on the lips and tell them they look beautiful and gorgeous and no-one thinks I fancy them.

Life is all about the appreciation of beauty - inside or outside.  If you're close to someone then you will treat them one way - but if you're not close to someone, then why treat them differently? Some women are beautiful on the outside but shallow, senseless self absorbed indivduals on the inside - so are some men. Some women are ugly on the outside (according to media stereotypes) but beautiful, selfless individuals, on the inside. So are some men.

Compliments are only ever compliments and should be taken as such.  Work it out.

As Translator says - you never see a smart guy without a woman ( - and you never see a smart woman without a man)  :-)

I concur with the "hi there, you really look nice today," except of course for my sister--I'm like most brothers.  I also know for a fact that some women take offense to such a compliment.  

"Why do you think you have to start with some sort of "compliment" on her physical attributes?"--Not suggesting it's mandatory, just accepted and common.  Appears we're trying to breed the sexuality out of humans completely.  Unrealistic.

Your second post really strikes home and in my opinion is more salient.  Would be worth focusing on saving minors from prostitution instead of stopping men from acknowledging femine beauty that has been the focus of artists since cave sketches.

Haha that's a very cynical view of the world.

Now I really can't wait to meet you! Mwah, mwah, smack, smack! 

Dude!

This whole "men as animals who can't control themselves" thing, like are you saying you must be allowed to "acknowledge feminine beauty" or you'll, like, spontaneously combust?

Ok, try this thought. Would you "acknowledge the feminine beauty"of a close friend's sister to his face?

I do believe I made it quite clear that I too recognize the difference between rape and these comments. However, as someone else already stated the discussion was started with general views on sexual harassment and this Slutwalk movement also includes views on general sexual harassment.

For the record it doesn't matter what HE wears to change my opinion. Also, there is a difference in a 'bonjour' or a 'ca va cherie'. The tone is different.

Maybe you are right, it's not related to my clothes. But depending on what I wear I receive more or less of these comments.

And for the record, my profile might say I'm Swedish because I have lived there most of my life, but I too come from the Netherlands. And I think if you have any self respect you won't let someone speak to you in such a manner.

Unwanted sexual attention, be it physical or not, is still sexual harassment. There's such a thing as verbal harassment.

You're reading into what I'm saying and making it personal. I am not offering absolutes.

And of course I have complimented friend's sisters and they've complimented mine.  I believe there is an acceptable way to do that.  

With a 50% divorce rate and plenty of single women and men, there are a lot of "non-smart" people out there.

Robert,

I agree that you have to be an adult to be able to keep a relationship working but not everybody has a choice and has to divorce....

I am not dramatic but I was also subject to domestic violence and had no choice.

You may say that I was not smart enough to realize whom I was getting married to but afterall this all came up a year after I got married and due to extreme changes in the circumstances of my ex-husband and he took out the stress on me...

I had no choice and if I was not smart enough to put an end to the marriage at the very early stage of the domestic violence, I would not be here today....but would be in the grave. I am not being dramatic but only honest and I am now capable of speaking about it openly and I do think this is important as I was the lucky one to get away relatively easily.

In know that we are now discussing about many things - like how to compliment someone in a non-offensive way - but I would still think that there are many different reasons for a divorce....we cannot judge based only on the percentage.

Oh and by the way, I am also a firm believer in freedom of speach. And this is in no way some plot to forbid people to say what they want. However, I think we girls should get to say what WE want to these guys, and you never dare to or get the chance for that when you meet them when you are walking home alone late at night.

No, no, not making it personal at all.

I just don't understand that if you know the acceptable way to compliment your friend's sister, for example, why not use the same respectful approach to a woman you don't know?

The divorce rate may or may not be related to this conversation. People get divorced for many reasons. And many people are in loving, stable and long-term relationships without marriage.  

Yes, there are plenty of single people out there for any number of reasons. Some are smart, some are not.

But why not simply try to start a conversation based upon mutual interests rather than a compliment on physical attributes, even if you are attracted to someone?

Reka, I agree that there are many reasons.  What I don't agree with is the earlier comments that "every smart man has a woman and every smart woman has a man."  I think comments like that detract from the point.  I believe the point to be that there is a line between acceptable and unacceptable behavoir, particularly when directed toward a woman.  However, that line, I think, is not cut and dry; there are no absolutes.  

So, I was only using the stats to point out that there are many "smart" men and women who do not have a mate, for any number of reasons.

Divorce comment was related to your assertion that every smart man has a woman.

There are many ways to start a conversation. Acceptable among them is with a compliment.  The point at which a compliment is an insult is subjective--within reason of course.  Were that not the case, there would not be women who respond favorably to what others are insulted by.  Happens every day.  For an act to be considered harassment, it must be unwelcome/unwanted.  My questions were not loaded.  The question is attempting to get at the definition of "the line" that once crossed is no longer complimentary.  So far, it appears we've established that compliments may be appropriate.

So as a (blonde) woman I should just get used to being yelled at, whistled at and shouted after? In my opinion the whole point of a free society is to be able to walk freely and safely on the streets whenever and however you want.

Free society - is there such?

You just expressed that you want to prohibit men showing any interest to you in the street because you want to feel free.

You know, the classical legal problmeatics are which rights are more important than the others.

Freedom of speach? Freedom of life? Etc.

And the answer is that none of the rights can be excercised in a way that those cause harm to the others.....So, work it out. 

In your interpretation men should be restricted to form and express an opinion about you, your apprearance forever to make you feel to live in a safe bubble.

Well, you know rape, violence can happen even within a relationship or marriage. Should we prohibit people living together just because there is a chance to experience violence?

Wow, why dont live on a deserted island?

Sorry, I am a bit too direct and brought your interpretation to the extreme but being whistled at in the street does not mean that you would be raped on the spot.

If I follow your logic, all men should be prohibited even to say hello to us at an event because you are not interested in him, and if he said hello to you, or said you look really pretty, or whatever, you would think he is harrassing you right there.

Of course, I understand that for you the unwanted attention of a man maybe too much to bear but let`s face it, we are not living in a bubble and live as part of a society where not all men  are rapists only very few.

BTW, I think that instead of the slut walk, we should focus on reaching out to boys to teach them to respect women and also girls to respect themselves so much that they do not sell themselves for designer bags, clothes over glocals....(this is not a comment reg you but heard many stories since I am in Geneve....)

Well, Reka, I certainly agree with your final paragraph. 

If one goes out around 9pm and afterwards, one can see apparently quite young girls and boys hanging out in front of McDonald's Rive. I wonder where the hell their parents are and what is going on at home.

No one really knows how many women experience rape because it is one of the mosts underreported crimes in nearly every country. Much of this has to do with shaming the victim.  And don't even get started on the subject of date rape!

Of course we don't live in a bubble but one hopes that society can evolve in the treatment of respect for women and children. This should also include a reduction of street harassment. In my opinion, the more men speak out against it, the less it will be socially acceptable.

After all, some of these men appear to be acting out in front of other men in an attempt to demonstrate sexual prowess.

I understand.  And I enjoy reading your posts as it raises good questions and arguments. 

As far as I was taught in law school, harrasment is not only becoming harrasment by being unwelcome/unwanted.

Usually it should be repetitive or if it is a one of occasion it should be extreme and really capable of making most people feel uncomfortable.

A whistle, or " ça va, chérie" will not be considered as such by most people and will not be considered as having a threating nature to anyone by most courts.

And yes, please feel free to make nice compliments. There are some of us who take it well.

Yes, maybe appropriate and probably in the same manner that one would compliment a friend's sister.

There are many things that happen every day. This does not make them acceptable nor desirable. Some girls and women do not have the confidence to reject verbal assaults or unwanted attention. Some smile nervously when approached in this way. 

Why do men behave respectfully towards their friend's sisters? Well, as the videos illustrate, the potential threat of force as well as mutual respect often keeps bad behavior in check.

I do not really think the SlutWalk concept is an effective one for many reasons. But I agree with the spirit in which it was initiated.

Yes you took it to the extreme since I (as I stated before) am not aiming to forbid anything. I just want to be able to express my feelings and views on this in public in the hope that it will be heard by some of these guys. Because when you are alone at night you are not always able to 'hollaback' as some say or just respond as you wish since you are worried about the safety.

Also, people are hung up on the 'ca va cherie' part, but I'm pretty sure I pointed out that they consequently follow me for a while and often follow up with a 'why are you walking away'. This is far more disturbing than the 'ca va cherie'. If I do not respond and/or walk away without eye contact, it's a pretty clear sign that I wish to be left alone.

Anyway, regarding the "we should focus on reaching out to boys to teach them to respect women and also girls to respect themselves so much that they do not sell themselves for designer bags, clothes over glocals....(this is not a comment reg you but heard many stories since I am in Geneve....)" I fully agree. I think many girls need to respect themselves as well and indeed it is best to teach men how to respect women when they are little boys.

And I just want to point out that slutwalk is not necessarily connected to parading around in slutty clothes. Like any demonstration there will be some form of march with slogans. Yes, some girls chose to take the slut part very literally, which is their choice. But many people walk in normal clothes, just shouting the message.

You are correct, however the law evolves and even a decade or two ago, repeated harassment was not effectively prosecuted. 

In Switzerland, there was a very interesting case of a man nominated to the top defense position. As it turned out, he had repeatedly harassed an ex-girlfriend in numeous and very serious ways including posting her telephone number on sex sites.

He was not prosecuted. He did not serve jail time. He did not get the post. He was, however, awarded a lump-sum "compensation" package for not getting the job...

Shoot. I do not agree to this and in most countries this is not only harrasment but a rude intrusion in privacy.

People really go to jail for this.

Plus if he was supposed to be a top defense guy, it is even more weird as those positions would require some level of decency and capacity of distinguish.

Plus, the unfortunate thing we both know, many educated men get away with rape, real sexual harrasment, violence because they know how to cover it up and they have the money to hire good lawyers while the victim does not....

Reference to the "Nef affair"

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/internal_affairs/Army_chief_falls_but_defence_minister_to_stay.html?cid=6822086

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/internal_affairs/Media_criticise_handling_of_army_chief_scandal.html?cid=6813116

It happened to me too  in Geneve that some guys would not understand that I am not interested.

Funny enough, they all shared the same ethnic origin....(I am not going to be racist here to say which one but somehow there is a common pattern here.....and perhaps the education about how women should be treated should go well beyond the boundaries of Switzerland and should go to the poorest regions around the globe....) 

So soon I learnt that I start walking on the other side of the street when I see them on my way home. 

Never been harrassed since then and I do know that it has nothing to do with what I am wearing....they simply have nothing better to do and in their home country their lurking attitude is quite typical. So they simple try to excercise it also here. Unfortunatelly. 

And these guys usually do not respect laws as quite a few of them are here without any permit....that already tells a lot.

@ Translator:

Your vignette is unfortunate and happens far too often; there's a long fight ahead in that regard.  However, I agree with Reka that this case goes beyond harassment.  There are a number of offenses involved.  Likewise, I am concerned about overly regulating/defining harassment.  Just as there are men who get away with terrible things that they should not, there are women who use sexual harassment as an excuse to achieve other motives.  If looked at objectively, the former is likely more common than the latter, but either way, we can only regulate so much before the state is imposing the will of a few or the will of a disaffected majority.  

If anyone has been a victim of violence, particularly rape or domestic violence here in Geneva, the person can get excellent assistance from this office:

http://www.centrelavi-ge.ch/sites/default/files/LAVI_Violence_en.pdf

The Center provides immediate help, free of charge.  

022 320 01 02, 72 Boulevard de St. Georges, next to the COOP

tram stop, le Cirque, trams 13, 14, 15

I agree with you in principle, but it appears he's not been proven guilty of anything.  Just process is required, which is one of the negative effects of over-regulating sexual harassment. Men are automatically presumed guilty...not that he is or is not.

Well, yes.

However, there is legislating and there is prosecution. If rape and domestic violence were more effectively prosecuted -- against rich and poor like -- I think street harassment would also probably lessen. 

I do not equate "compliments," "unwanted attention," "verbal abuse" and "attempted rape" and "rape."  But they can be degrees of imposition of power by one person on another.

I think many people forget that rape is a crime that is constructed upon power through the use of sex.

As I have written before, there is an evolution in the law. And of course, I know that particularly in the history of the United States, the charge of rape was often used against black men who were then lynched by white mobs.

There are too many cases to mention but the most celebrated of which spring to mind is that of Emmet Till  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Till

The irony of this historical issue is that essentially the law did not effectively punish white men for rape -- with rare exceptions mostly related to class -- against white women.

HUG also cares:

http://premier-recours.hug-ge.ch/consultations_specifiques/violence.html

Reka, for the first time, I disagree with you.  I've spent quite a bit of time in Budapest and I don't think it's an ethnic or cultural thing.

I talked about my Geneve experience. 

I have never been harrassed in Hungary or anywhere else in the street I lived apart from Geneve.

In Budapest for example I lived in the 7th district for 3 yrs....(Sip utca/Rottenbiller, Blaha, Rakoczi etc.), my high school was located in the 9th district where I spent 4 yrs, no issues.

In my home town I used to walk home once I got home sometimes from work even at 11 pm or later....the only harrasment I got was a female dog who was trying to protect her two puppies but we got befriended in the end. I had some cat food with me and I gave some to them. 

Geneve was the first place where I have faced many people who are illegal immigrants, lurking around the streets at night, would try to stop me when walking home and even would try to physically touch me after saying hello.

Geneve was the first place when someone got my number via a friend, would keep on calling, somehow got my home address as well and ended up leaving bunch of flowers on my door step, knocking on my door at night...even when I asked to stop contacting me or I would report him to the police. Funny enough he only stopped when I wrote him a fake message that I have a husband and a babygirl....

Geneve was the first place where the  shop owner on the corner several times asked me to go out with him when my boyfriend was not around and made me jump once almost under a car as he grabbed my both of my arms in the middle of the street when he saw me there....after this occasion he stopped, Thanks, God.

It happened several times when I moved here and was always from a certain ethnic group.

I do not want to generalize but I cannot help it then to think that there must be something cultural, ethnical here....you do not learn this in a Swiss school and the 2 concrete examples were legal immigrants to Geneve, same ethnic origin and same country.

The rest - you can understand I did not investigate the country background further...Just pulled out my phone and said that they can go away otherwise I call the police...they ran away with an incredible speed.

No, I do not agree that men are presumed guilty. In fact, there is a great deal of case law in many countries around the world that disprove your assertion.

Men of a certain race, class, and status are not prosecuted at the same rates as others without  the same resources and/or status.

This is exactly why rape is an underreported crime. What happens is the "victim" and her reputation are put on trial.

Just look at the recent case of the two NYC cops who repeatedly visited the apartment of a  woman who they knew was drunk and had sex  with her. Under the law, an inebriated person cannot be said to give their consent. These two guys were acquitted.

On the Nef affair, you will have to look into more detailed reports from the Sonntags Zeitung and other press. Swissinfo is the government information platform and Swiss privacy laws are such that much is restricted. 

Sonntags Zeitung published a copy of the Zurich police report that detailed the serial harassment. In addition, if you look at the swissinfo article in the box, you can read that Nef essentially admits to harassment by saying he had not behaved correctly.

Robert,

As a lawyer I have to say that the law in many cases is not about justice but about legal technics and many get away easily when they are coming with a mich better financial background and can afford a good legal defence.

Yep, DSK charges dropped by Cy Vance, Jr.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/22/strauss-kahn-accuser-and-lawyer-meet-with-prosecutors/

On DSK legal team:

http://www.showbiz411.com/2011/08/22/dsks-team-includes-former-cia-agents-and-super-prosecutors

On DSK and behavior at IMF: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/dsk-did-the-imf-look-the-other-way-08112011.html

What She Did and Didn't Say in Fulani in a Phone Conversation:

http://www.thelocal.fr/687/20110728/

If sex was consensual and she was a prostitute, why wasn't DSK charged under NYC prostitution laws? His legal team admitted that he had sex with her.

Reka, I see your point and think you may be on to something regarding cultural assimilation. I must also say, however, that the unceasing solicitation that I get when I walk through the center of Budapest or try to go into my hotel at night would be considered harassment by many.  Others would say "she's just doing her job."  A bit of a double standard there, but it is what it is.  Finally, Translator's example, Kahn, is probably not of the same ethnicity as the group you're referring to.  Perhaps different cultures simply use different techniques to harass?

Translator, is it possible that Kahn is innocent? Is there enough evidence to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt? The Bizweek article talks about his reputation and questionable habits, but the accusor has the same problem with her background, so we have a goose and gander issue.  How often are men falsely accused of rape or harassment?  Who keeps that statistic?  Again, not saying this excuses those who are guilty, and the women are likely victimized more often, but why do we look at only one side of the coin and not even acknowledge the other side, which is problematic as well? 

Hmm interesting point. I too shall go in the racist direction then since the guys that won't leave me alone do not share the same ethnic origin per se, but are clearly not Swiss... But still it is 'allowed' here and they can continue. If it is not 'the Swiss way', all the more reason to have some action against it!

I do agree that there are women who abuse the sexual harassment laws, and these women I think hurt emancipation and equality just as much, if not more, as the men that do the actual harassment.

Sandrine, I agree, but believe it goes beyond "emancipation," as I'm not sure I'm in line with that concept.  I think they simply hurt people in general.

http://www.mens-rights.net/law/harassment.htm  

The commonality of false accusations cannot be defined with precision, however there is enough evidence to suggest that they are high enough to be of concern to the public. According to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC), 2,119 accusations of sexual harassment were filed in 1991. At least 59% of them were found to have had no cause. [3]

"Alan Dershowitz's experience with an esoteric definition of sexual harassment also raises questions about false allegations in this newly-defined but widely publicized crime. Skeptical checking has revealed that, as with rape, the percentage of unfounded accusations of sexual harassment may reach astonishingly high levels. That was the claim of Randy Daniels, whose confirmation for New York City's Deputy Mayor was almost derailed by a sexual harassment charge he was able to refute. To see whether his experience was relatively rare, Daniels checked with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. He found that in 1991, the EEOC investigated or mediated 2119 cases of sexual harassment and found that 59% were determined to have no cause (Daniels, 1993, p. 1). Since the Hill/Thomas affair they have gone up sharply — up 64% in one year — but so have false allegations, remaining steadily in the plus 50% range."

I agree, any abuse is wrong. It is not a women vs men thing. I strongly defend men who are abused and manipulated and we should always be very careful in judging without clear evidence.

Sexual attraction is clearly a power. Everyday life can be also much easier for a pretty woman or a good-looking guy. I am thinking about better jobs, etc. That's not unfair, that's just the way it is, we're equal in theory like we're free in theory but not totally...

I think we all acknowledge the power of appearance (that's why we're sweating long hours at the gym), now some might not like it. But everyone should have the right to feel good about themselves and feel handsome or pretty without being accused of being a "slut". What's shocking is saying that women shouldn't be surprised to be assaulted because they dress like "sluts" (then who knows what "slut" means...) And that's the main reason why the movement was created.

Now, regarding the DSK case, I think we've been (and first of all the press) very quick in judging him because of his sexual history and then in judging her when the defense revealed that she was a prostitute. I don't understand why in the US people are judged over their reputation. Facts and evidence, that's all what should be considered. Prostitution is the oldest job in the world. Should a prostitute deserve sexual abuse? I don't think so. Prostitutes also suffer violent assaults. But what's not convincing in this case is how the accusation seems to be seeking for money... Money is an issue, because then others might try in getting some by false accusations. Anyhow, if there is no clear evidence, he should not be condemned. But if he is proved guilty and condemned then money should not be involved... But that's another issue... which has already been discussed in another thread I think.

@Robert C.  There's an open thread on Strauss-Khan under the Political/Social forums.  You might be interested in following-up the matter there.

Izzie: I will provide a rebuttal to your assertions about the DSK under the political forum. Just to note, however, that there was very strong forensic evidence. Many, many legal commentators have drawn attention to the incompetence of the NY district attorney's office.

Robert C: The issues you raise about false claims and sexual harassment are very interesting and I will open a thread about your Dershowitz citation on the political thread.

There have been a number of key US Supreme Court decisions about these issues since 1993 (the era you mention) -- now nearly 20 years ago.  What this indicates is that there are many, many solid sexual harassment cases -- not simply claims -- that have made it through the various levels of the US legal system.  This in itself shows the pervasiveness of sexual harassment -- including same sex harassment -- in the US workplace.

Finally, I doubt highly that there will be a SlutWalk in Geneva. Expats don't have the time and most the Swiss Romande women's rights related protests are like this:

http://www.lesquotidiennes.com/poltitique/l%E2%80%99%C3%A9galit%C3%A9-hommes-femmes-cr%C3%A9e-des-remous-%C3%A0-gen%C3%A8ve.html

Note that in the photo, everyone has a nice red t-shirt and nice pink ballons are floating upwards into the sky....

I agree with the Toronto Policeman.  In my view, the vociferous response to his comments are from those who seem more interested in maintaining their status as the aggrieved and vulnerable, rather than being proactive on the matter of their own personal safety.  And let's be clear: the officer did not say that women who dress slutty are deserving of rape, nor did he say that punishment of rapists should be contingent on how women dress.
Sexual assault of women, whether verbal or physical is the only crime where a discussion of agency is a complete nonstarter.  I guess being the victim is a much more powerful position.  Victims get to say what can or cannot be discussed.  Victims have the power of blame and guilt.  That's why victims don't like to be told how they can move away from being victimised.
It seems that in most other criminal situations, we can openly consider whether a person has done enough to protect him or herself.  For example, suppose I am walking down the streets of East Las Angeles.  It's two in the morning.   I am sporting a blue bandana with sagging jeans.  Odds are pretty good that I will be accosted.  Assuming he is caught, I am confident the assailant will be punished to the full extent of the law.  But the police would be right to ask, given that I live in a much safer part of the city, and given my knowledge of gang culture, why would I deliberately expose myself to almost certain danger?
Generally, I take greater comfort from  knowledge of how to keep myself safe from harm or theft, than from the mere assurance that my attacker will be punished.
But wait, it seems the point of the slut walk has broadened a bit.  It's also a response to men who feel it is ok to hoot and holler at the sight of scantily clad women.  I think that hooting and hollering is crass.  But women who dress slutty know what they are doing.  They are conveying a message, but are simply unwilling or unable to accept the response.  In which case there are two options: that they own the message, or dress more conservatively.  Either but the wining is fine with me.

http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/3925/myths.html

 Myth: Women "ask for it" by their dress or actions.

FACT Rapists look for victims they perceive as vulnerable, not women who dress in a particular way. Assuming that women provoke attacks by where they are or the way they dress is victim-blaming. No person, whatever their behaviour, "deserves" to be raped.

Myth: Gang rape is rare.

FACT: In 43% of all reported cases, more than one assailant was involved.

Myth: Sexual assaults are rare deviations and affect few people. After all, no one I know has been raped.

Fact: Sexual assaults are very common. Most likely, someone close to you has been profoundly affected by sexual assault. Not only are victims reluctant to discuss their assaults but many succeed in totally blocking the assault from conscious memory. However, the trauma remains and may come to the surface at another crisis or when the opportunity to discuss it with a sympathetic person arises. An estimated 155,000 women were raped each year between 1973 and 1987. (U.S. Department of Justice, 1991)

Myth: Women often make false reports of rape.

Fact: According to FBI crime statistics, during the 1990s around 8 percent. The “unfounded” rate, or percentage of complaints determined through investigation to be false, is higher for forcible rape than for any other Index crime. Eight percent of forcible rape complaints in 1996 were “unfounded,” while the average for all Index crimes was 2 percent.

Myth: Sexual assault is an impulsive, spontaneous act.

Fact: Most rapes are carefully planned by the rapist. A rapist will rape again and again, usually in the same area of town and in the same way.

Myth: Sexual assault usually occurs between strangers.

Fact: By some estimates, over 70% of rape victims know their attackers. The rapist may be a relative, friend, co-worker, date or other acquaintance.

Myth: Most rapes occur as a "spur of the moment" act in a dark alley by a stranger.

Fact: Rape often occurs in one's home - be it apartment, house or dormitory. Very often the rapist is known by the victim in some way and the rape is carefully planned.

 Myth: Only certain kinds of people get raped. It cannot happen to me.

FACTRapists act without considering their victim's physical appearance, dress, age, race, gender, or social status. Assailants seek out victims who they perceive to be vulnerable. The Orange County Rape Crisis Center has worked with victims from infancy to ninety-two years of age and from all racial and socioeconomic backgrounds.

Myth: Rape is an impulsive, uncontrollable act of sexual gratification. Most rape are spontaneous acts of passion where the assailant cannot control him/herself.

FACT Rape is a premeditated act of violence, not a spontaneous act of passion. 71% of rapes are planned in advance. 60% of convicted rapists were married or had regular sexual partners at the time of the assault. Men can control their sexual impulses. The vast majority of rapists are motivated by power, anger, and control, not sexual gratification.

 Myth: Rapists are strangers. If people avoid strangers, then they will not be raped.

FACT In 60% of the rapes reported to the Orange County Rape Crisis Center in 1991, the rapist was known to the victim. 7% of the assailants were family members of the victim. These statistics reflect only reported rapes. Assaults by assailants the victim knows are often not reported so the statistics do not reflect the actual numbers of acquaintance rapes.

Myth: Rapists are abnormal perverts; only sick or insane men are rapists.

FACT In a study of 1300 convicted offenders, few were diagnosed as mentally or emotionally ill. Most were well-adjusted but had a greater tendency to express their anger through violence and rage.

Myth: Most rapes occur on the street, by strangers, or by a few crazy men.

FACT Over 50% of reported rapes occur in the home. 80% of sexual assaults reported by college age women and adult women were perpetrated by close friends or family members. There is no common profile of a rapist. Rapes are committed by people from all economic levels, all races, all occupations. A rapist can be your doctor, your boss, your clergyman, your superintendent, your partner, your lover, your friend or your date.

Thank you Valerie. Rape is a violent crime, I think all sane men and women agree on this. Those who don't should probably be behind bars. 

I was also rather intrigued by some of Robert C's remarks regarding our biological impulses...yes we are genetically predisposed to certain behaviours but because we have the power to change our behaviour and use our minds to act a certain way I think the whole 'biology is destiny' argument is severely debunked.

This article says it succinctly:  http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/women-who-stray/201009/biology-is-not-destiny

http://www.newstatesman.com/life-and-society/2008/03/rape-myths-women-stump-sexual

Nearly same rate of false rape claims in UK according to the above article -- only 3%

http://www.newstatesman.com/life-and-society/2008/03/rape-myths-women-stump-sexual

It is also very interesting to note that when one poster made repeatedly abusive and insulting comments about women, only one male poster told him where to get off.

But women who dress sultty know what they are doing. They are conveying a mesage, but are simply unwilling or unable to accept the reponse."

That's why in some places women "own the message" and carry a firearm.

I agree that we should all use precautions regarding our safety. And I think that extends to the way we dress. But what does one say to those sleazoids who continue to catcall and stare and generally misbehave with women who are dressed appropriately?

Men stare at women on the streets of Karachi (where I'm from) and I mean STARE. Its rude, its uncomfortable and totally unwarrented. And we dress really modestly in that country on the streets...not an exposed leg in sight, not a cleavage unbared. Outraged women often holler at men : "is this how you look at your mother/sister/daughter? Shame on you!" And yet it continues.

I just finished reading 'Why Men Don't Have a Clue & Women Always Need More Shoes"...hilarious reading but also very insightful. The chapter on what women find sexually attractive in men is about 17 pages long and the chapter on what men find sexually appealing in women is 32 pages long....

From my own personal experience I would have to say that men are much more visual than women (on the whole)...it doesn't take much more than a picture of a sexually alluring women to get them going. Women, on the other hand...

oops, meant "slutty" obviously..

Compare the US FBI statistics of 2% false rape claims with these rape prosecution statistics:

http://www.pbs.org/kued/nosafeplace/articles/rapefeat.html

 Most rapists are never caught, and conviction rates for those apprehended are notoriously low.

According to Department of Justice statistics, 48 percent of accused rapists were released before trial.

Of those tried, only 54 percent were sentenced to prison.

Even more troubling is that the average sex offender may commit hundreds of crimes in his lifetime, which means that the vast majority of rapes go undetected and unpunished.

.....on the other hand, this visual works for me.....

ahahahah!!! YES!

Valerie, that is really depressing...

Translator: Google these numbers.  Check the stats.  Check the sources.  Check the sample sizes.  The 2% false claim figure is 100% false.  I'll dig up the dirt on that stat later tonight.

Oh my God! That is soooo sexist! I mean, clearly when you look like me, you're going to have women gawping at you all day. However, I just wish you'd take the time to know me, talk to me and realise that the 'eye-candy' has feelings!

I will look up in the FBI database about the 2%...

And remember, it can't be from your favorite blog

I believe the less wordy version is "All men are total bastards!"

LOL!! 

But honestly, Brad was asking for it - I mean the slutty way that he has almost bared one shoulder, provocatively blowing his shirt in the wind, the low cut jeans showing off his six pack, that come to bed twinkle in his eye.....

Does he get cat calls, attacked, raped, victmized?

No, he gets Gwynnie, followed by Jen, followed by Angelina.

Nice work if you can get it

thats it, i'm going to the next glocals party with my black shirt undone then. 

Yep! It's a tough old life for the likes of Brad and I!!!

Hi Anna,
Thanks for the post.
It is without a doubt that SOME (not ALL) men lack the upbringing to respect women.  Yet still, mother's as well as fathers raise children.  So if men are to be branded as pigs, what does that say about some of the social habits that women confer upon their boys?
I digress.
I completely sympathise for the woman who dresses tastefully and yet is subject to unrelenting and unwanted verbal sexual overtures.  The response to them is to march as you are, not by claiming the identity of a slut.  March for the respect of all women, and not against a police officer who said something that (although hard to hear), had within it a basic truth.
I am weary of stereotypes about men and women.  They simply never add up.  Men are supposed to be more visual.  Well I am blind, so from my perspective, women are more visual.  I will often hear the following whilst among two or more of my female friends: "Oh he is so hot.  I would sleep with him."  Or, "Nah, he is too short."  And the favourite, "There aren't enough cute guys working here."
As I see it, my male friends or no more or less guilty of their visual fixations. 
@Translator, some women carry guns, some pepper spray.  Others take selfdefense courses.  Nothing wrong with telling women to assume some responsibility for their own protection.  If you call that "victim blaming", so be it.

I'd do the same but I don't want to see 50 women explode with excitement.

(My God! I'm so full of shit I should change my name to colon!)

Lads .....Gwynnie , Jen and Angelina are all individually crap in bed...trust me....

collectively, however, that might be a different story...

@Translator, you have said so much, so I will try to consolidate my responses in this post.
My point is that a discussion of women's agency in rape or sexual harassment is (unlike with any other social or criminal transgression), a nonstarter.  You are proving my point, first by your personal dig, and then by your unwillingness to carefully read and understand what I said.  For example, I said to Anna, that it is true that some but not all men lack the upbringing to treat women with respect.  It's very, very interesting that you skipped over that.
I am also clear in expressing that rapists should suffer the full penalty of the law.  This goes without saying, but many here have said as much because there are some who refuse to acknowledge that culpability of the criminal and agency of the victim or two different things.
You sight FBI crime statistics as fact.  But we are talking about a Canadian Police Officers statement.  Unless Canada has become the 51st State of the US, I think you should calm down about these stats you call facts.
How we dress communicates a great deal.  Whether what is communicated is necessarily a true reflection of who we are is another discussion altogether .  There are women I know who will wear low cut tops in and out of work, and complain that men continually look at their breasts.  Some of these very same women liken such attention to sexual harassment or something "creepy".  They know what to do if such attention is unwanted.  But they insist on the right to show cleavage without guys looking at it.
Yes, there are rapists.  Dressing appropriately, and comporting yourself in a confident manner is not (according to your facts/stats) going to shoo all the bad guys away.  But it does make a difference by at least getting women to think about things they can do to protect themselves.
And Bravo, it seems you have benefited from a philosophy of logic course.  You seriously need to calm down.
I did not say that anyone on this board claimed that "all men are pigs".  I think where your rebuff is concerned, this is what we call a "Straw man".  Mine was a conditional statement if not a question that eluded to the context as introduced by Anna.  .  My mention of stereotypes refers to her citation of a book.  Using the latter of these two points to beat on the former says little of your capacity for intellectual honesty.  I am not fighting you.  I merely disagree with what I see as a massive overreaction to what the policeman of Toronto had to say.
More over, we aren't just talking about rapists.  We are also talking about those who sexually harass or make crude comments to women in the streets.

Welcome Charlie - I knew if I lowered the bar enough, you'd turn up!

Oh come on! Read last night's posts and it was like an episode of Loose Women! If it had been a boxing match Robert C's trainer would've thrown the towel in.

I thought that getting all those three into the sack at the same time was actually "raising the bar".... I'd be impressed, and'd give my full respect to anyone who could do that...

A real woman always keeps her house clean and organized, the laundry basket is always empty. She's always well dressed, hair done. She never swears, behaves gracefully in all situations and all circumstances. She has more than enough patience to take care of her family, always has a smile on her lips, and a kind word for everyone.

Girls if this is not you then you might now realize that you might be a man.