We really feel for you. It cannot be easy for you, and as with very many other aspects, it's all about money. Or in your case, the fact that they do not want to give you any. Keep fighting! Don't give up. Can you afford a lawyer to help you? I presume you do not want to go back to NL or even B where the health system is excellent [we used to live there].

But you are not alone, our son of 44 and daddy to two darling little girls, is undergoing very painful and debilitating chemotherapy for bladder cancer at the moment. He is stoic and knows he has no choice. The urologist says "it's just one of those things" - as if that helps! He does not smoke, and works in an office, not an industrial environment.

But back to you...........we feel for you and hope you can see some light at the end of the tunnel. Shame on the Assurances Invalidité. Chin up

This must be very hard. To be ill is tough enough, without the added stress of getting stuck in the system and failing to find the support you need.

I can't cure you, but if you like I will come over and teach you some relaxation techniques which you can practice regularly to help with your stress management and general health. Free. Drop me an email to [email protected] if you think this could be helpful.

Have a nice evening :-)

What I dont understand is to learn that you have diabetes, a doctor is enfact confirming this (was it a Swiss Doctor?).

This doctor should be defending you, as it was him that give you the news you have this illness.

I normally would not know I have a long term illness without a doctor confirming, whom would then help with the needed paperwork that goes to employers and Assurance Invalidite. 

So I really confused, because your doctor (if Swiss doctor) his recomendation/diagnosis would be taken in very serious consideration before disputing your illness. And they cant hold your benefits that are entitled to you, which you paid for when you were gainfully employed. AI is part of a employee and employer contribution plan, but sometimes cheep azz employers get terrible coverage/insurance companies, but its a legal requirement, so get an arbitrator and your original doctor to help you with your needs. its not easy getting better or survive when you have poor treatment by insurance companies. 

In the end, i do hope your health improves and you can return to a normal and better health.

That's really shitty! What kind of credentials do these doctors have? Are they experts in MS? Are their names  Dr. Seuss, Dr. Pepper and Dr. Dre?

My really good specialists are helping me all they can. The medical team appointed by the AI itself however...that is another story all together.

So I am lucky to be surrounded by a team of really good doctors, that try to find the best treatment for my diseases. They even helped me fighting the AI's decision. And I am sure they will help me again.

I have an law insurance, and hope they can help me. I have been warned today however, that because of the AI's irradical behavoir, my chances could be very slim. And that came from the MS foundation itself...

It's just so unfair.

And can I just say thank you for the really uplifting answers. It helps. You made me smile again...

It seems harsh  when all your medical team support your application

Maybe you could go along and talk to an assisante sociale at Pro Infirmis to see if they can advise you in any way?

Pro Infirmis Genève

Boulevard Helvétique 27
1207 Genève

Tél. 022 737 08 08

http://www.proinfirmis.ch/fr/home.html

Hey man,

Sorry to hear of your troubles. Yup - here they will do anything to get out of paying. I've never been anywhere like this before.

I read a year or two ago about a guy who had an altercation over a parking space. He flipped the other guy the bird and got his wig split...badly. The insurance 'fined' him 30% of the medical fees because they said he had provoked the other guy. Total BS.

I agree with the others. Although you probably feel like you can't face it, keep fighting. Thay are a huge machine and feel they can grind individuals down with admin/paperwork.

Hang in there.

Although this might be the last resort for you, how about contacting the Tribune de Geneve and see if a journalist might interview you and publish your story. That may well have "them" rethinking their refusal?

You state being "deeply dissapointed in Switzerlands social system"-in fact it is one of the better social systems available.

@drb1

Why not google the Swiss Diabetics Association and contact them for advice?

Best wishes, R.

From today's Tribune de Genève

(Unfortunately, it's not for tomorrow, but it would be the perfect solution to your problem)

La gauche veut créer un centre public d'expertises médicales Conflit d'intérêtLe projet de loi déposé ce mardi prévoit aussi une facturation des expertises en fonction du revenu du demandeur.

Un centre public «et donc indépendant» d'expertises médicales permettrait, estime Christian Dandrès, député socialiste, d'augmenter la confiance des assurés et de désengorger les tribunaux.

Par Laure Gabus@lauregabusMis à jour à 11h53

Les expertises médicales sont nécessaires à quiconque, à la suite d'un accident ou d'une maladie, se doit de retourner au travail, de demander des prestations ou de toucher une rente. Elles peuvent être réclamées par les assureurs, les tribunaux ou l'assuré.

Pour les Socialistes et Ensemble à gauche, appuyés par le syndicat Unia, «le droit des patients à des prestations d'assurance impartiales n'est pas garanti lorsque ce sont les assureurs qui choisissent et paient les médecins experts.» Les partis de gauche veulent donc créer un centre public d'expertises médicales aux Hôpitaux universitaires de Genève (HUG) et déposent ce mardi un projet de loi dans ce sens.

Le texte prévoit deux grandes nouveautés. D'une part que le centre soit formé d'experts faisant partie du personnel des HUG. D'autre part, que si un assuré demande une expertise, celle-ci soit facturée entre 300 frs et 5000 frs au sens de la Loi sur le revenu déterminant unifié, soit en fonction de son revenu. Les expertises demandées par les tribunaux ou les assureurs seront à leur charge.

A l'heure actuelle, un assuré qui souhaiterait contester une expertise médicale établie par son assurance peut se tourner vers son médecin traitant. «Or la jurisprudence du Tribunal fédéral considère leur avis toujours plus faible que celui des experts de l'assurance au motif de l'empathie que les médecins traitants auraient vis-à-vis de leurs patients, constate Giulia Willig, secrétaire syndicale chez Unia.

Les assureurs travaillent régulièrement avec des cliniques privées spécialisées dans le domaine de l'expertise médicale. «Le terme d'expert professionnel est trompeur, estime Caroline Renold, juriste de l'Association pour la permanence de défense des patients et des assurés. Il s'agit en réalité de médecins qui ne font que des expertises, sont détachés de l’expérience clinique et dépendant des assureurs qui leur donnent du travail.»

En ce sens, le député socialiste Christian Dandrès estime nécessaire la création d'un centre public «et donc indépendant» d'expertises médicales. «Cela permettrait d'augmenter la confiance des assurés, de désengorger les tribunaux trop souvent utilisés pour trancher des litiges au niveau des expertises et d'économiser des deniers publics car davantage de personnes seraient probablement prises en charge par les assurances et n'auraient pas besoin de recourir au chômage ou à l'aide sociale.» (TDG)

How Dare You!!!!

Dre is an exemplarary physician!!!!

Your adversity would warrant more sadness than anger. Being ill is always an ordeal, in any country. The solution would be that you get better, and in fact we are, at least partially, responsible for our health. The conclusion of the latest and most progressive health science is, that many (of course not all) illnesses are the ultimate result of our lifestyle. The best I can give you is this website, which will offer you a lot of information on how to understand and manage your health and, in some cases, how to initiate a healing process:

www.mercola.com

There are many others but this one is a good start.

Let me know if there is anything I can do for you, or help you with.

Best wishes of courage and success,

Elisabeth 

What a helpful post that really contributes to making the OP feel better and gives advice on how she might be able to solve the issue.

It would be very interesting to know what makes you say so. 

Anybody that lived in Switzerland knows that it is one of the most capitalistic countries in the world, with little social security and no public health care.  Drb1's story is not the first horror story I hear about AI.  Laws are largely made to protect multinationals, banks, companies and estate owners, with no concern for the middle class citizen.  The fact that a xenophobic, greedy, and rich-loving party has the majority of the votes in this country is not by chance.

Hi Elizabeth,

your words are nice and clearly you have kind intentions, but - frankly - posting a link to a quackery website would only harm the OP even more.

Joseph Mercola's page on Wikipedia.

It's in their (the AI's) own interests to appoint a bunch of clowns who will uphold their opinion. It's always the way. You need a lawyer asap. Why are you being told that the AI's behaviour will affect your claim? Bizarre,

I'm really sorry that you are going through all of this, on top of the diagnoses. And glad to hear your primary care team are looking after you.

Good luck!

No, it isn't.

So you dismiss this in the blink of an eye, but maybe you should spend a thought for all the middle class and other citizens who might need options as alternatives to lifelong illness and medication. And by the way, this is not about kindness, it’s about hope (even small amounts…).

PS - The above was an answer for TheOmegaMan :)

Opportunistic charlatans looking to make a buck off someones despair.

One of the best social systems? Come of it! Compared with what? It's not social at all!

There is only private health insurance. All companies are supposed to offer the same basic coverage, ... yet they offer very different monthly premiums. It's just a lot of private companies giving little value added to the citizen and getting a lot of money just for doing administration.

Besides, what one pays does not depend in any way of his purchasing power/income/fortune: if you're working poor, single parent with three kids, and you can hardly make ends meet, you still pay the same for your health insurance premium as the millionare without any family charges. I don't see how that can be called social.

Besides, let's say you're in good health, so you chose a high deductible, and let's say that for 10 years you never need to visit a hospital or doctor. You have been paying 10 years to sustain the system without getting anything out of it, a kind of solidarity if you want. Then after 10 years you have a serious illness ... you still will have to pay your 2500CHF deductible before you see get any help back from the system!!. So if the cost of your treatment amounts to let's say 2400 CHF ... you just continue paying! Always paying!. You can hardly call that social.

Furthermore, the fact that the doctors bill by the minutes passed with the patient,  ...well, that's the last straw on the camel's back, it's just a scandal.

"Good morning, how are you today? Nice weather, isn't it?" "Well, thanks, let's go to the point, please" ... ...  "Ok, here's your bill. I haven't been able to diagnose your problem or do anything useful for you, but I have spent some time with you, chatted about the weather, and bla bla bla, so hey, please, pay me. And then go to another doctor, and pay him too, to see if he's more competent and can really do something useful to cure you".

If there was a really public health system where doctors were payed a fixed salary, and in which they spent with each patient as much time as needed (five minutes with the patient that needs five minutes, and two hours with the patient that needs two hours ... ) that would be a much fairer system. Making people who are seriously sick pay more than those that are not ... that's no solidarity. But I guess I'm just dreaming to see a system like that in Switzerland, so in the meantime I will continue praying to keep my health for as long as possible.

And let's not talk about the abusive and unjustified prices of medicines, which are completely out of control, much more expensive that in the European countries that surround Switzerland, even after factoring out the general higher cost of living here. 

Last, but not least, the fact that one has to pay a significant amount of money everytime one goes to the doctor, make many people wait, thiking their condition is not acute ... until it is late and it does indeed get more acute. "I don't feel well, but I think it's nothing serious ... we are in December and I haven't paid anthing toward my deductible this year, ... so I will wait till January next year and then go to the doctor if ithe sysmptoms are still there". In other words, there's absolutely no attention to preventive medicine. How many people are going to do regular check-ups if it's going to be an added cost to the already expensive premiums they pay?

And I could go on and on ... I don't deny that the system has some positive points. But, social? Not in the least!!

En 2014, l’assurance-invalidité comptait 440 000 bénéficiaires de prestations (55 % d’hommes et 45 % de femmes), dont 400 000 environ résidaient en Suisse. En Suisse, la probabilité de percevoir une prestation de l’AI était de 6,1 % en 2014. Cette
probabilité dépend étroitement de l’âge et du sexe ; pour les hommes, elle allait de 2,9 % entre 25 et 29 ans à 16,6 % entre 60 et 64 ans.
Parmi les 400 000 bénéficiaires de prestations de l’AI résidant en Suisse, 56 % touchent une rente et 49 % bénéficient d’une mesure de réadaptation individuelle. S’agissant des mesures de réadaptation, les coûts moyens annuels par personne s’échelonnaient entre 3000 francs pour les moyens auxiliaires et 22 500 francs pour les mesures d’ordre professionnel. En décembre 2014, quelque 260 000 rentes d’invalidité ont été versées, dont 226 000 (87 %) en Suisse et 34 000 à l’étranger. Trois quarts d’entre elles étaient des rentes entières. La principale cause d’octroi d’une rente d’invalidité en Suisse est la maladie (180 000 personnes) ; les
infirmités congénitales (29 000) et les accidents (18 000) jouent un rôle plutôt secondaire. La probabilité de devenir bénéficiaire d’une rente de l’AI croît rapidement avec l’âge et n’est pas identique pour les deux sexes. Le risque est maximum chez les hommes à la veille de la retraite : 15 % touchent une rente de l’AI. En décembre 2014, quelque 34 000 adultes percevaient des allocations pour impotent (API).
Le risque d’impotence est particulièrement élevé parmi les personnes qui perçoivent une rente en raison d’une infirmité congénitale : elles sont une sur deux à bénéficier d’une API. Le nombre de nouvelles rentes en Suisse a atteint un pic en 2003 (27 700, soit 0,60 % de la population assurée). Depuis, ce chiffre a fortement baissé, pour tomber en 2014 à 13 600 (0,26 % de la population assurée), ce qui correspond à une baisse du taux de plus de la moitié. Grâce au financement additionnel limité dans le temps, le résultat d’exploitation a été de 0,7 milliard de francs, pour des recettes de 9,9 milliards de francs et des dépenses de 9,3 milliards.
Grâce au financement additionnel et au produit des placements de 0,2 milliard de francs, la dette envers l’AVS a pu être réduite : elle est passée de 13,8 à 12,8 milliards de francs. Sans le financement additionnel, qui a généré des recettes supplémentaires de 1,3 milliard, il y aurait eu un résultat négatif de 0,4 milliard de francs.

You are genius. I'm not joking. You just did 1+1 describing realliity when most people cannot read the time on the watch and live in the dream world.

For me it was easy to accept this absurd abuse system basically considering an extra tax from the administration. Then you feel Ok. Of course you have to be rich pay from your pocket whatever else is needed when necessary.

It's fun that noone realised it so far!!

Well a state-of-the-art one but not among the cheapest ones, quite like the opposite. It cannot be as bad as the U.S. system though.

Now what I always find amusing is foreigners coming here and expecting the system to give them 100% satisfaction. If the system sucks here, why aren't you better off in your own country? Why Switzerland should carry the burden of your physical inability?

The implied social contract in Switzerland is that one is expected to work and shut their mouth. You can't have it all... and considering the number of foreigners living on benefits and AI in this country, I'm starting to understand the Swiss. It's becoming way too much!

Ah yes, that old true sign of a real community "go back to your own country". Foreigners living on benefits, foreigners paying taxes and overpriced insurance rates, spending money in your mediocre over-priced restaurants and contrubuting to your otherwise unsustainable economy. 

Always the same things.

The AI (insurance for persons with disabilities) has been abused because of our clueless leftwing politicians.

Now there is an overreaction because of our clueless rightwing politicians...

@Casuistik:

The insurance for persons with disabilities is hardly being abused: tell that to the many ill citizens/residents who can not work, and are too young to receive a pension (AVS).

One of my closest friends receives not only AI but also extra funding via the "allocation d'impotence" http://www.aivd.ch. She has multiple sclerosis and walks with two canes and also uses a wheelchair. How do you suggest the many indviduals receiving AI survive without such funding?

Your blanket comment is simply misleading.

The system HAS BEEN ABUSED!

Your friend IS NOT ABUSING the system, because obviously she's in a genuine situation where she needs the help.

Care to point out where I said otherwise?

Because your friend is honest, does it mean that everybody is?

This is for 2014 (official document)

Lutte efficace contre les abus dans l’AI
En 2014, 2200 nouveaux cas suspects d’abus ont fait l’objet d’une enquête, et l’enquête a été bouclée dans 2310 cas. Les soupçons ont été confirmés dans 540 cas, conduisant l’assurance à réduire ou à supprimer la prestation de rente en cours ou à renoncer à octroyer une rente. L’équivalent de 390 rentes entières a ainsi été économisé, ce qui correspond, par extrapola-tion, à des économies totales de l’ordre de 144 millions de francs, pour des coûts d’environ 8 millions de francs.
L’année dernière, les offices AI ont transmis 2200 cas suspects à des spécialistes de la lutte contre les abus pour examens complémentaires et enquête. S’y sont ajoutées les 1990 enquêtes qui n’étaient pas encore terminées fin 2013. Au total, ce sont donc 4190 cas qui ont été traités pour soup-çon d’abus en 2014. Une surveillance a été requise pour 540 d’entre eux.
2310 enquêtes ont été bouclées en 2014, 260 ayant fait l’objet d’une surveillance. Le soupçon d’abus s’est confirmé dans 540 cas, dont 140 grâce à une surveillance. Cette lutte rigoureuse contre les abus permet à l’AI d’économiser l’équivalent de 390 rentes entières, ce qui correspond à une réduction des dépenses annuelles de 9,5 millions de francs ou à des économies totales de l’ordre de 144 millions de francs (extrapolées sur la base du montant moyen d’une rente ordinaire de l’AI et de la durée de per-ception jusqu’à l’âge de la retraite). Les coûts générés par la lutte contre les abus dans l’AI se sont élevés à un peu plus de 8 millions de francs (6,8 millions pour le personnel et 1,4 million pour les sur-veillances). Le montant des économies ne comprend pas celles qui peuvent éventuellement en dé-couler pour les prestations complémentaires à l’AI ou pour les rentes d’invalidité du 2e pilier. Dans 54 cas, les offices AI ont réclamé la restitution des prestations indûment perçues, et ils ont porté plainte dans 30 cas.
Dans toutes les instructions relatives à une première demande de rente et dans toutes les révisions de rentes en cours d’assurés résidant en Suisse ou à l’étranger, on examine s’il existe des indices d’abus. En 2014, l’AI a révisé environ 46 000 rentes et octroyé près de 16 000 nouvelles rentes. Le nombre de cas d’abus avérés montre que la grande majorité des assurés se conduisent correctement et perçoivent à juste titre leurs prestations.
La lutte contre les abus est menée par les offices AI de façon ciblée et structurée, avec des spécia-listes qualifiés. Ceux-ci ne mènent une enquête approfondie qu’en présence d’indices indubitables et suffisamment probants (par ex. incohérences dans les documents, indications d’autres assurances ou des organes de contrôle chargés de la lutte contre le travail au noir). Les offices AI examinent en prin-cipe aussi toutes les indications fournies par des particuliers, qu’elles proviennent d’une source con-nue ou anonyme. L’assurance ne transmet aucun renseignement aux informateurs. Dans la plupart des cas, l’enquête approfondie aboutit à la conclusion que les soupçons étaient injustifiés. Actuelle-ment, des d’abus ne sont avérés que dans 23 % des cas examinés.
La lutte contre les abus, menée de manière rigoureuse et coordonnée, constitue une condition pour éviter toute perception indue de prestations. Elle joue par ailleurs un rôle préventif non négligeable, dont l’efficacité augmente avec le temps. Elle permet ainsi aux citoyens et contribuables d’avoir con-fiance dans la gestion de l’assurance.

Bearded and Albin - 

I deleted your last posts.

If you feel you're no longer able to contribute to this thread without insulting each other please refrain from posting.

Thanks

Oded

Albin, Bearded,

We again had to remove your latest posts. Pls stay on topic and don't go into personal battles.

Nir

Casuistik, if I understand correctly from your posts, there were 540 proven cases of the AI being abused out of 440,000 claimants. So 99.9% of claims are genuine...

Hello Drb1

I have just bumped into this article and thought you could find it inspirational for you

it is an interview with a women who cured from MS!

http://www.thedeliciousday.com/health/ms-cure/

Take a good care of yourelf!

Albin:

> Why Switzerland should carry the burden of your physical inability?

I hope you realize how ugly is what you've written.

The obvious answer: Because the OP is a legal resident and pays his taxes in Switzerland, and he rightfully expects to receive the assistance he paid for.  This is what happens in all civilized countries.

HER actually....... think the OP is female

Doesn't alter the circumstances though

Even if she's legit, it speaks volume about the so-called contribution/positive balance of a number of foreigners in this country.

I think UDC should come stronger and impose a minimum income like in the UK for Tier-2 visas and extend it to EU citizens. Likewise, as Cameron is proposing, the latter should be banned from claiming benefits for 4-5 years. If not eligible, they should be deported to wherever they come from.

@Albin: why do you hate expats so much? And why do you have this need to post about your expat hate in forum for expats?

@Elisabeth: social class has nothing to do with it. it's about proven scientific results: some treatments have it and some don't

Sorry, but you missed the point here: kindly read 1st post of TheOmegaMan to seize the perspective :)

Albin’s Profile says he is from Ireland, so presumably he’s also an expat without the right to vote on this issue anyway.

Yes, that's what it says.

We warned Albin, he kept pushing, we now suspended his glocals account.

But...

given his obsession with hating expats, there's a likely chance he won't be able to stay away and he'll join from another account to keep posting his stuff. So if you see new posts by a new members with the same old hateful stuff against expats, pls let us know. Good chance it's the same Albin.

To be clear: expressing fact-based negative views about expats is not an issue at all. But when these views are extreme and/or mixed with personal attacks, there's an issue.

Albin is clearly a troll.

Perhaps we are not alone in joining this excellent forum because "the other forum" tended to be full of cyber-warriors, nasty negative postings and generally vitriolic expressions. Heaven forbid that Glocals should ever become the same. But then hopefully, it wont ever come to that.

If debts towards AVS has been reduced, I wonder if on  28th of February, Swiss people will vote against the complementary / social aid cuts that people with a small retirement rent, or who are invalid (AI) receive.

My above reply was meant to be to Casuistik's comment of 10th of February

I don’t think he is Irish, we are not so mean and hateful towards expats as we are also expats!!! Well I hope he isn’t  and just chose Ireland randomly as ‘Albin Pinard’ is not a very Irish name!

I certainly found his claim to be Irish at odds with his name and also

his slightly wobbly written English.  Pretty fluent yes but it just didn’t ring 100% true, so I hae’d mae doots about his identity from the start, keeping quiet on that score in case I was in fact mistaken.  In the event, he hung himself because, as you say, his overall stance just wasn’t Irish or even any other expat.

Best, R.

And in any case, where would Geneva - or Switzerland in general - be without Expats?

Judging by the thousands who take the boat from here [Evian] each day, Lausanne would fall apart were it not for those frontaliers! Not to mention those already living in CH permanently. What a pity this thread became so abused!

@sheila: the thread was abused by one person who is now gone, let's move on with the disucssion. so what's your view on what the OP wrote?

I think it is true that a few people did abuse the system AI in the past and then when they decided to crack down on the fraud, they over did it and are now punishing people who are in genuine need. I remember when I first came to switzerland there was a woman who was on AI because she had "depression". she was on anti depressants and was not supposed to be taking any alcohol. However she was not telling the truth about this and for the 5 years I had known her she was working (illegally) and getting the AI benefits claiming to be sick. she went to the doctor's appointments and did not take the medication. finally when they asked for a blood test she was caught out. I wonder what happened to her.

I was pretty disgusted at his attack on you Ritchie. I will probably get banned too for this, but I doubted he was from Ireland, and he isn't. I also thought he was using a fake identity (and maybe he did steal it, but the people in the photos looks the same). Here is his linkedin.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/albinpinard

Wonder where his boss comes from?

@bearded: dont you see how much satisfaction you give him when you make it clear just how much he got under your skin, and you even take the time the effort to search for him online? if you really didn't like the guy, the best thing is to forget him and move on, not to keep mentioning him and to spend time on him