Login or Sign Up
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Forums in Geneva > Geneva > Advice Please
 
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Advice Please

Hello Everyone,


I have a sticky situation here:


Late November last year, I came across this advert for a sublet apartment, made a call to the number provided and it was a guy lets call him James. He told me the apartment would be available from the 1st Dec 2011. So since I was desperate, I showed a lot of interest in it and told him i want a place for a long time. He agreed to show me the apartment and I liked it, So I said I would take it. During the visit, he let me know that the apartment's original tenant is his sister ( lets call her Susan) who is out of the country for an unknown period of time, so he is taking care of subletting it on her behalf i.e finding a good tenant, conducting the visits, repairs, etc.


Before moving in on the 1st of December 2011, James came with a simple drafted contract that said how much the apartment would be, how much deposit I've payed, and the contract stated it was for 3 months ending on 29th Feb 2012, to be renewed if we agreed. Some vital details were missing from the contract like the address, actual tenants name (Susan) and details of the apartment. In fact it said that I am renting the apartment from James himself. However, we were doing the signing outside on a cold night and I didn't notice all these details were missing from the contract until later.


So I moved in and got stern warnings from James about not disturbing the neighbours, not inviting friends and all this but I just thought it was the usual tenant rules. I also couldn't put my name on the mailbox and had to receive my letters under the original tenant (Susan's) care. Which again, I did't see any problem with. I should also say that I felt very lucky to have finally found an apartment after all the trouble I had gone through searching so I didn't care about all these small details and rules I was being given.


When the indicated day of the end of the contract neared, I got a call from James saying that his sister has postponed her returning, so I can stay longer which was of course, to my relief. It didn't cross my mind to ask for a proper contract extension. I should also mention that James collects the rent from me every month in cash and its usually a handshake exchange with no receipt or documentation. Maybe I gave James too much trust since he seemed to be concerned about helping me get this place in the beginning so I was very naive.


Now months have gone by and Im still living there without a contract and I asked him the other day to sign a contract but he brushed it off and said there is no problem and that it was unnecessary. I couldn't insist because I don't speak french very well so I was like ok but a little puzzled. About his sister Susan, its occurring to me that she may not come back and since I realised that I am in an illegal sublet, they are using this apartment to make money off helpless foreigners. I should also mention that I recently learnt that the actual rent of this apartment is way lower than what I pay to James.


My problem is that I have been looking for an apartment for so long now so that I can get out of here but I haven't been successful. I also don't want James and his sister to know that I am suspicious of them since they can do something like run away with my deposit or take my stuff especially becuse I don't have any proof that I rent this place.....I know it sound panicky but I have to be very careful. Also because I have never met this Susan who is the actual tenant. My instinct tells me that they have been doing this for a while and that Susan will never come back, but she wants to benefit from the extra money and she doesn't want to release the apartment to the regie.


I know there is ASLOCA but how can they help me without any proof and especially for an illegal sublet ? I would be interested in keeping the apartment but whats the best way to go about it?


Thanks for reading and I look forward to reading your suggestions.

The text you are quoting:

Hello Everyone,


I have a sticky situation here:


Late November last year, I came across this advert for a sublet apartment, made a call to the number provided and it was a guy lets call him James. He told me the apartment would be available from the 1st Dec 2011. So since I was desperate, I showed a lot of interest in it and told him i want a place for a long time. He agreed to show me the apartment and I liked it, So I said I would take it. During the visit, he let me know that the apartment's original tenant is his sister ( lets call her Susan) who is out of the country for an unknown period of time, so he is taking care of subletting it on her behalf i.e finding a good tenant, conducting the visits, repairs, etc.


Before moving in on the 1st of December 2011, James came with a simple drafted contract that said how much the apartment would be, how much deposit I've payed, and the contract stated it was for 3 months ending on 29th Feb 2012, to be renewed if we agreed. Some vital details were missing from the contract like the address, actual tenants name (Susan) and details of the apartment. In fact it said that I am renting the apartment from James himself. However, we were doing the signing outside on a cold night and I didn't notice all these details were missing from the contract until later.


So I moved in and got stern warnings from James about not disturbing the neighbours, not inviting friends and all this but I just thought it was the usual tenant rules. I also couldn't put my name on the mailbox and had to receive my letters under the original tenant (Susan's) care. Which again, I did't see any problem with. I should also say that I felt very lucky to have finally found an apartment after all the trouble I had gone through searching so I didn't care about all these small details and rules I was being given.


When the indicated day of the end of the contract neared, I got a call from James saying that his sister has postponed her returning, so I can stay longer which was of course, to my relief. It didn't cross my mind to ask for a proper contract extension. I should also mention that James collects the rent from me every month in cash and its usually a handshake exchange with no receipt or documentation. Maybe I gave James too much trust since he seemed to be concerned about helping me get this place in the beginning so I was very naive.


Now months have gone by and Im still living there without a contract and I asked him the other day to sign a contract but he brushed it off and said there is no problem and that it was unnecessary. I couldn't insist because I don't speak french very well so I was like ok but a little puzzled. About his sister Susan, its occurring to me that she may not come back and since I realised that I am in an illegal sublet, they are using this apartment to make money off helpless foreigners. I should also mention that I recently learnt that the actual rent of this apartment is way lower than what I pay to James.


My problem is that I have been looking for an apartment for so long now so that I can get out of here but I haven't been successful. I also don't want James and his sister to know that I am suspicious of them since they can do something like run away with my deposit or take my stuff especially becuse I don't have any proof that I rent this place.....I know it sound panicky but I have to be very careful. Also because I have never met this Susan who is the actual tenant. My instinct tells me that they have been doing this for a while and that Susan will never come back, but she wants to benefit from the extra money and she doesn't want to release the apartment to the regie.


I know there is ASLOCA but how can they help me without any proof and especially for an illegal sublet ? I would be interested in keeping the apartment but whats the best way to go about it?


Thanks for reading and I look forward to reading your suggestions.


Nadia JAug 6, 12 18:53
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
 
17 Replies | 916 Views      |  Send to friend
 
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: Advice Please
Post 1

I would go to ASLOCA just to find out if they can help you or advise where you might find some information. In the meantime, keep up the search for a new place. Without a contract, you should be able to pick up and leave without a problem, though you can probably kiss your deposit goodbye if you do that. Otherwise find another place, give notice to James and perhaps it will all end amicably. But if you are uncomfortable about your situation, at least make some inquiries at ASLOCA. Good luck.


 

The text you are quoting:

I would go to ASLOCA just to find out if they can help you or advise where you might find some information. In the meantime, keep up the search for a new place. Without a contract, you should be able to pick up and leave without a problem, though you can probably kiss your deposit goodbye if you do that. Otherwise find another place, give notice to James and perhaps it will all end amicably. But if you are uncomfortable about your situation, at least make some inquiries at ASLOCA. Good luck.


 


eveyansas, Aug 7, 12 16:27
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: Advice Please
Post 2

Let's assume you have paid ONE month security deposit so you are covered for equivalent the next one month rent which should work out since you have no written contract highlighting the rules and rental conditions when renting an apartment in Geneva...I said one month rent since you subleted a furnished flat as I read for a short time.


Now comes the tricky part - and I agree with "eveyansas" - as you ought to be careful since you have not seen the signed cotract made between the owner(or representative and the tenant(sister). This should warn you it is likely possible in this signed lease of (un)furnished flat there was a specific clause prohibiting to sublet.  Last, you haven't mentioned details of your termination period in case you find another apartment and wish to leave...


In case you need further help do email me thru Glocals. Good afternoon.

The text you are quoting:

Let's assume you have paid ONE month security deposit so you are covered for equivalent the next one month rent which should work out since you have no written contract highlighting the rules and rental conditions when renting an apartment in Geneva...I said one month rent since you subleted a furnished flat as I read for a short time.


Now comes the tricky part - and I agree with "eveyansas" - as you ought to be careful since you have not seen the signed cotract made between the owner(or representative and the tenant(sister). This should warn you it is likely possible in this signed lease of (un)furnished flat there was a specific clause prohibiting to sublet.  Last, you haven't mentioned details of your termination period in case you find another apartment and wish to leave...


In case you need further help do email me thru Glocals. Good afternoon.


Milord, Aug 7, 12 16:43
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: Advice Please
Post 3

How do you know you the actual rent of the apartment is way lower than what you paid ? How much lower ?


There is few rules to know about sub-letting a flat:


- the tenant is allowed to sublet his flat for a maximum of 12 months and has to guarantee that he will come back to the flat living


- the purpose of the sublet shouldn't be to make money, but the sublet rent can be higher than what the tenant pay if it is a furnished flat (max +20%)


- the regie should be agreed with the sublet contract and be aware someone sublet the apartment 


If  one of these point are not respected it's an illegall  sublet contract, and the tenant has the risk to have his rental contract broken with an immediate effect. which means that you also risk to loose the flat, because the regie is not necessary supposed to make a legal contract with you.


You should go to asloca to ask some legal advise or try to find a new flat with a clean sublet contract.

The text you are quoting:

How do you know you the actual rent of the apartment is way lower than what you paid ? How much lower ?


There is few rules to know about sub-letting a flat:


- the tenant is allowed to sublet his flat for a maximum of 12 months and has to guarantee that he will come back to the flat living


- the purpose of the sublet shouldn't be to make money, but the sublet rent can be higher than what the tenant pay if it is a furnished flat (max +20%)


- the regie should be agreed with the sublet contract and be aware someone sublet the apartment 


If  one of these point are not respected it's an illegall  sublet contract, and the tenant has the risk to have his rental contract broken with an immediate effect. which means that you also risk to loose the flat, because the regie is not necessary supposed to make a legal contract with you.


You should go to asloca to ask some legal advise or try to find a new flat with a clean sublet contract.


aussiestyle, Aug 8, 12 04:47
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: Advice Please
Post 4

Personally I'd take the original contract to ASLOCA and get their advice.

Also, how are you registered at the Controle des Habitants?  Normally you need your rental contract to register where you are living.

The text you are quoting:

Personally I'd take the original contract to ASLOCA and get their advice.

Also, how are you registered at the Controle des Habitants?  Normally you need your rental contract to register where you are living.


Michelle W, Aug 8, 12 10:06
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: Advice Please
Post 5

At the controle des habitants, im registered under this apartment and I get my mail under the (care of) Susan.

The text you are quoting:

At the controle des habitants, im registered under this apartment and I get my mail under the (care of) Susan.


Nadia J, Aug 9, 12 02:40
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: Advice Please
Post 6

Someone I know was in exactly the same situation last year and it reached a point of direct conflict (including some intimidating behaviour from the "landlord") when my friend asked for clarification of the rental cost and contract.


I offered to provide some reciprocal intimidation (not a good idea, I know; but he's a big guy and she's a young woman living alone, so I was a bit angry at his behaviour) but a visit to ASLOCA fixed it all quite quickly.


Once he found out that she had consulted ASLOCA he became quite contrite and claimed that it was all a misunderstanding.  I assume that he was afraid of the legal consequences if the matter was pursued any further, so he backed right off, giving her the opportunity to move out and get her deposit back.


Best of luck,


Andy

The text you are quoting:

Someone I know was in exactly the same situation last year and it reached a point of direct conflict (including some intimidating behaviour from the "landlord") when my friend asked for clarification of the rental cost and contract.


I offered to provide some reciprocal intimidation (not a good idea, I know; but he's a big guy and she's a young woman living alone, so I was a bit angry at his behaviour) but a visit to ASLOCA fixed it all quite quickly.


Once he found out that she had consulted ASLOCA he became quite contrite and claimed that it was all a misunderstanding.  I assume that he was afraid of the legal consequences if the matter was pursued any further, so he backed right off, giving her the opportunity to move out and get her deposit back.


Best of luck,


Andy


Andy C, Aug 9, 12 10:54
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: Advice Please
Post 7

Someone I know was in exactly the same situation last year and it reached a point of direct conflict (including some intimidating behaviour from the "landlord") when my friend asked for clarification of the rental cost and contract.

I offered to provide some reciprocal intimidation (not a good idea, I know; but he's a big guy and she's a young woman living alone, so I was a bit angry at his behaviour) but a visit to ASLOCA fixed it all quite quickly.

Once he found out that she had consulted ASLOCA he became quite contrite and claimed that it was all a misunderstanding.  I assume that he was afraid of the legal consequences if the matter was pursued any further, so he backed right off, giving her the opportunity to move out and get her deposit back.

Best of luck,

Andy


Aug 9, 12 10:54

@Andy, you explained that:


1. - the “landlord” became intimidating when your young female friend asked for clarification about the rental cost and contract.


How did he intimidate her?


2. – the “landlord” backed off after knowing your young female friend had consulted ASLOCA. He became quite contrite and claimed that it was all a misunderstanding. He returned her the deposit she had paid and she moved out.


Misunderstanding  - ?! -   or rather complete awareness of the level of desperation provoked by the rental shortage and strong determination to take advantage of it?


Did he return her the difference between the rent she actually paid and the rent stipulated in the contract?


3. – you assume the “landlord” is afraid of legal consequences.


 @Nadia J, if Andy’s assumption is correct, you could use it to leverage the situation.

The text you are quoting:

@Andy, you explained that:


1. - the “landlord” became intimidating when your young female friend asked for clarification about the rental cost and contract.


How did he intimidate her?


2. – the “landlord” backed off after knowing your young female friend had consulted ASLOCA. He became quite contrite and claimed that it was all a misunderstanding. He returned her the deposit she had paid and she moved out.


Misunderstanding  - ?! -   or rather complete awareness of the level of desperation provoked by the rental shortage and strong determination to take advantage of it?


Did he return her the difference between the rent she actually paid and the rent stipulated in the contract?


3. – you assume the “landlord” is afraid of legal consequences.


 @Nadia J, if Andy’s assumption is correct, you could use it to leverage the situation.


isabela M, Aug 9, 12 21:50
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: Advice Please
Post 8

Nadia, as per what you explained:


Bad news is it seems you are subletting from a rat of the size of a cat,  or a family of them…


Good news is it seems to be a recidivist rat, or a family of them, and those are easier to trap.


If you contact ASLOCA bring with you all what you have about the sublets of that family. ASLOCA may have taken some legal action against any of them already and/or recognise the members and/or their modus operandi.


Very best of luck to you.

The text you are quoting:

Nadia, as per what you explained:


Bad news is it seems you are subletting from a rat of the size of a cat,  or a family of them…


Good news is it seems to be a recidivist rat, or a family of them, and those are easier to trap.


If you contact ASLOCA bring with you all what you have about the sublets of that family. ASLOCA may have taken some legal action against any of them already and/or recognise the members and/or their modus operandi.


Very best of luck to you.


ana m, Aug 10, 12 23:02
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: Advice Please
Post 9


The text you are quoting:

isabela M, Aug 13, 12 22:27
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: Advice Please
Post 10

Of course you can go to ASLOCA, but there is no garantee that you can keep the appartement if they intervene. The original tenant will probably loose the lease, and the regie might just pass it on to someone on their list, ignoring that you have lived there for months.

The text you are quoting:

Of course you can go to ASLOCA, but there is no garantee that you can keep the appartement if they intervene. The original tenant will probably loose the lease, and the regie might just pass it on to someone on their list, ignoring that you have lived there for months.


Paxxie, Aug 13, 12 22:29
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: Advice Please
Post 11

The whole thing is also quite tricky as you have no proof you pay the rent. I would at least get some "quittances" (pre-printed) and have "James" sign each time you pay

The text you are quoting:

The whole thing is also quite tricky as you have no proof you pay the rent. I would at least get some "quittances" (pre-printed) and have "James" sign each time you pay


Paxxie, Aug 13, 12 22:35
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: Advice Please
Post 12

Ask ASLOCA if they know how the regie of the flat you are currently subletting goes about illegal sublets. If they don't know or are uncertain, ask them if they could write a letter to that regie on your behalf to find that out. That letter should mention your situation but not your name, “Susan/James” ’s real names or address of the flat.


You might be surprised. Some regies are careless and after listening to you they would terminate the contract of “Susan”, get you out of the picture and repair the flat to rent it at a higher price. But others – even if not the majority - are considerate and after listening to you they would terminate the contract of “Susan” and suggest that you send them a complete dossier.


Tones of luck.

The text you are quoting:

Ask ASLOCA if they know how the regie of the flat you are currently subletting goes about illegal sublets. If they don't know or are uncertain, ask them if they could write a letter to that regie on your behalf to find that out. That letter should mention your situation but not your name, “Susan/James” ’s real names or address of the flat.


You might be surprised. Some regies are careless and after listening to you they would terminate the contract of “Susan”, get you out of the picture and repair the flat to rent it at a higher price. But others – even if not the majority - are considerate and after listening to you they would terminate the contract of “Susan” and suggest that you send them a complete dossier.


Tones of luck.


Demaure A, Aug 16, 12 14:48
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: Advice Please
Post 13

So “James” is sub-letting on behalf of his sister, “Susan”. And that comprises… conducting the repairs, right? I think “ana m” made a point worth exploring -- it may turn out that you have enough proof with you already.


If when you asked “James” to sign a contract extension he brushed it off and said it was unnecessary, when you ask him to sign a pre-printed “quittance” after paying the rent he may also brush it off and say it is unnecessary. Worse, he may intimidate you if the situation reaches a point of direct confrontation -- see post of “Andy C”.


You mentioned “James” collects the rent in cash every month. Even if this is a handshake exchange with no receipt, your bank statements/ATM receipts are likely to reflect monthly withdrawals equal/close to the rent indicated in either your contract running from 1st Dec 2011 to 29th Feb 2012 or the advert of the sub-let.


So instead of taking an “intimidating” risk straightaway by asking “James” to sign a “quittance” after paying the rent, find out first if you really need to prove all those payments and if so, if you can show your monthly (rental) withdrawals by means of your bank statements/ATM receipts.


Good luck.

The text you are quoting:

So “James” is sub-letting on behalf of his sister, “Susan”. And that comprises… conducting the repairs, right? I think “ana m” made a point worth exploring -- it may turn out that you have enough proof with you already.


If when you asked “James” to sign a contract extension he brushed it off and said it was unnecessary, when you ask him to sign a pre-printed “quittance” after paying the rent he may also brush it off and say it is unnecessary. Worse, he may intimidate you if the situation reaches a point of direct confrontation -- see post of “Andy C”.


You mentioned “James” collects the rent in cash every month. Even if this is a handshake exchange with no receipt, your bank statements/ATM receipts are likely to reflect monthly withdrawals equal/close to the rent indicated in either your contract running from 1st Dec 2011 to 29th Feb 2012 or the advert of the sub-let.


So instead of taking an “intimidating” risk straightaway by asking “James” to sign a “quittance” after paying the rent, find out first if you really need to prove all those payments and if so, if you can show your monthly (rental) withdrawals by means of your bank statements/ATM receipts.


Good luck.


Marcus E, Aug 18, 12 13:57
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: Advice Please
Post 14

Is forbidding having visitors a common "rule"?  If so, how can we tell them to shove it in a polite way?

The text you are quoting:

Is forbidding having visitors a common "rule"?  If so, how can we tell them to shove it in a polite way?


FerneyL, Aug 18, 12 15:03
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: Advice Please
Post 15

Rental contracts in Switzerland can be verbal. Therefore you do not need a written contract to prove occupancy. However, you would need to provide some evidence that a rental relationship exists such as payment history. As already mentioned, Asloca would be able to give you some advice on this. There are also 'permanence juridiques' dealing with this area of law who charge around CHF 60 for one hour's consultation. They can advise you on how best to prove a relationship exists and how to deal with the situation.

The text you are quoting:

Rental contracts in Switzerland can be verbal. Therefore you do not need a written contract to prove occupancy. However, you would need to provide some evidence that a rental relationship exists such as payment history. As already mentioned, Asloca would be able to give you some advice on this. There are also 'permanence juridiques' dealing with this area of law who charge around CHF 60 for one hour's consultation. They can advise you on how best to prove a relationship exists and how to deal with the situation.


Sajade, Aug 18, 12 16:20
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: Advice Please
Post 16

@Nadia and Sajade:


Verbal rental contracts are also authorized but better receive landlord or landlady with a witness friend being present at same time by chance. Sharing a cup of tea since" tea for two" tastes better, Just in case.

The text you are quoting:

@Nadia and Sajade:


Verbal rental contracts are also authorized but better receive landlord or landlady with a witness friend being present at same time by chance. Sharing a cup of tea since" tea for two" tastes better, Just in case.


Milord, Aug 20, 12 12:10
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: Advice Please
Post 17

I have an apartment which is available from the 1st October if you are interested? It's a great 1 bedroomed apartment which is 72meters squared and has a large living room and kitchen/ dining room. 


 


The best part about it is that we've been here 5 years, renting directly from the owner and never once seen him or heard from him! Which suits us fine... PM me if interested!

The text you are quoting:

I have an apartment which is available from the 1st October if you are interested? It's a great 1 bedroomed apartment which is 72meters squared and has a large living room and kitchen/ dining room. 


 


The best part about it is that we've been here 5 years, renting directly from the owner and never once seen him or heard from him! Which suits us fine... PM me if interested!


James H, Aug 20, 12 12:41
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
17 Replies | 916 Views      |  Send to friend
 
 
 
Feedback Form