Welcome the the forum Claire!

For questions 1 and 2 a lot of it will depend on the area and community you live in. If you're central the chances of getting childcare at a creche are lower, especially if you're not working (they'll figure you should be taking care of the kids anyway and will prioritize working parents)... I have friends in the Plainpalais area that have been waiting over 2 years for a place in creche and still don't have a spot on the horizon. We live a little outside the city and we got a spot from the 6th month mark, exactly when we wanted. Smaller communities, especially if you reside in their boundaries, seem to have a little more flexibility, although it still takes a little luck and good timing. If you happen to already know where you'll be living, you can start investigating and get the administrative process going. The sooner you start, the higher you'll be on the list.

Alternatively, there seems to be many maman de jour possibilities for children older than 2 years (we don't have many options for our 13 month old where we live, but have one who's dependable if we need help outside of the creche times). You can have more flexibility for times, but your child is in someone else's house and doesn't get access to some of the facilities and advantages of a creche.

For question 3 I'm not an immigration expert so take anything I say with a healthy scepticism and I welcome any forum member to correct me. If you don't get a B permit in the beginning and are not granted the right to work, I would be surprised if they just give it to you without having an employer backing you. If you're American as it says on your profile, it will be even more difficult to get an employer motivated to go through the administrative hassle of hiring you when there are a lot of skilled Europeans and Swiss in the area with permits - you'll notice a lot of 'local hire' job postings are requiring applicants to have at least a B permit with some insisting on a C or Swiss national. Language skills will help your chances and NGOs play by a little different rules (which I assume you'll be targeting with international development experience). The advantage you'll have by being here is Geneva is relatively small and if you network well while you're here you might be able to find something.

Feel free to drop me a pm if you have more questions.

HI and welcome (maybe) to Geneva.

1. Your 3 year might not get creche immediately but this also depends on where you will live. If you register both the unborn and the 3 year old immediately you arrive you stand better chances of getting the newborn in on time. The 3 year old will start school at 4 years old so no worry there.

2. Yes it is very possible to get the creche within 1 and 1-5 years. Anyway there are also maman du jour options (not sure what this is in English).

3. I have never heard of a B permit for a student taking longer than a year. It normally takes about 3-4 months on the busy seasons and 1-2 months on seasons without many students. Dependants permits take a similar amount of time.

Hi again, Claire. As an addendum to my PM, I agree completely with Matt Williams's assessment about the particular difficulties for Americans. I received a work permit through my husband's employer, without which it also would've been practically impossible to open a bank account, sign an apartment lease or obtain a carte de légitimation on arrival. Before we left the US, we created a file of scanned pay stubs, passports, a landlord rec letter, and apostilled certified copies of every important document (diplomas, transcripts, marriage certificate, etc. etc.) in our possession. Good thing, too. Sigh.

Good luck. 

Thanks Mercy for this info! You're right, for the three year old we might just have to wait until next year for her to go to school. Are all kids guaranteed spots in the public system?

On the permit, our concern is that the number of b permits is limited and we've heard that they just start issuing L permits when they run out. Have you heard of this? My understanding is that L permit is not something you renew, instead you can try again for a B permit. Also,  looks like not all B permits are created equal? I know in the U.K. The spouse on a student permit is granted the right to work, for obvious reasons of needing to support the family. Do you know if this is the case as well for Geneva? From what I'vet been reading it seems kind of like a case by case basis?

Thanks Yvette! You're absolutely right about the big folder full of documents and copies. We are waiting on some docs then plan to do the same! Glad to hear it was useful. And thanks for the tip on landlord recommendation! Any other non-obvious items to include? Besides a thousand passport photos :-) Thanks!!

Birth certificates and immunization records, as well as any important recent lab results from your doctor.

Passport photos are much cheaper at Kinko's than at a photo booth here. :)

Suddenly so many "students" coming from the US to Switzerland, interesting trend. 

You will not get a place in a crèche for sure. When the kid turns 4, he must go to public school, there will be no problem with that, by law you're forced.

Btw, I just wonder how you will manage to survive with 2 kids in geneva with husband studying and you not working. Even if you get a job with an ngo, it will be peanuts. Unless there is a hidden "subsidy".

And if you do decide to come, get all your medical, dental, and optical checks and work done before you leave.  Bring spare eye-glasses, copies of medical prescriptions, a fair supply of regular medication and favourite toiletries (to keep you going until you find local equivalents that suit), as much baby stuff and clothing as you can, etc., etc.

You can find almost anything you want or need in CH but not at prices that you’re used to.

All the best, R.

Ok. I don't want to be negative but I really wish someone had told us about the difficulties of living and working in Geneva before we relocated. 

A B permit is possible but it doesn't mean you can work (it's more of a residency permit than a work permit). You need to get special permission to work and this is normally not given unless you can find an employer willing to go through all the paperwork to hire you. They can't hire you unless they can prove no one in Switzerland or in the EU can do the job you can do. 

Your best chance at finding work is to be hired by an international company or an NGO. With your background in international development, I would think this is very possible. 

In terms of finance, keep in mind that apartments do not generally come with ovens and frigs (some do, most don't) and you'll need to put three months deposit down (kept in a special bank account until you leave). You'll have to have health insurance, which is quite expensive (look into Swisscare). There is also a radio/tv tax (billag) around 400 chf/yr that you'll have to pay if you have tv/radio or internet access.

I don't know anything about child care, so I'll leave that discuss to others.

Good luck!  

Poster No.38 makes a good point when she mentions health insurance because you will need it for all the family which also prompts me to ask what arrangements do you have in mind for the birth of your second child which you say will be very soon after your arrival?  You can’t just turn up at a hospital or a maternity clinic without first having consulted a specialized medical practitioner and he/she will have to be paid, ditto the clinic, post-natal care plus any ambulance transportation.  (For the record, I recently paid just a handful of francs short of  CHF 1000 for a 10-minute ride when I needed hospitalization for an unpleasant but  treatable viral infection which my expensive health insurance did not reimburse.)

If, indeed, it is imperative for you to work to sustain the family while your follows  his PhD programme, I recommend that you think twice before opting for Geneva however tempting this very special city may be.

All the very best, R. 

Sorry, the first line of the second paragraph should read: … “while your husband follows …”.

My apologies.

R.

Thanks Ritchie for your reply! You're right of course about the health insurance. We currently live in Tanzania and we have a very good international health insurance plan that we will be able to maintain while in Geneva. We have confirmed with both the insurance company and Geneva Canton that our insurance is adequate coverage for Swiss standards. Although we will still be arriving in the last month of pregnancy, so we hope to be able to make a few doctors visits before baby arrives to establish care with a doctor/hospital for the delivery.

Thank you no.38 for your reply! You provided a very helpful response! 

On the permit, we are hoping that it is similar to other country student visa procedures that the spouse would be granted the right to work. But there does not seem to be any official confirmation of this. I think I will try contacting the Canton immigration office directly to see what they say. Otherwise it would be a major risk, since we will not receive our permit until well after moving and making the decision.

I do feel confident that I am a strong candidate for international NGO work, and indeed that is my desired place of work given my field and experience. So perhaps the different regulations will help there. Although I do know still that these positions are extremely competitive. 

Very helpful to hear that about the apartment deposit!! We would not have known that information at all, so it is great to have that foresight! as well as the fee for media. Were there any other unforeseen costs that you experienced?

Thanks No. 38!

Thanks Kirill_GE. We already live abroad, so perhaps we are trying to avoid going back home, but Trump or no Trump we intend to live abroad for most of our careers (husband and I are both international development professionals). 

Good to know about the creche. It does sound very unlikely to get a spot, especially if I am home with a new baby for some time in the beginning. But it sounds like there are a few alternatives that may provide some level of entertainment for her for that one year at home. She misses the July 31 cutoff so won't attend school until 2018. 

Indeed, this is the golden question! Surviving in Geneva with two kids, one student parent, and one unemployed parent is absolutely not a feasible option for us. That is why I am asking all of these questions about permits and right to work. I know it is common in other countries for the spouses of students to be granted right to work, because obviously someone needs to support the family. So I am curious whether it is the same for Geneva. I am not finding any other student families that have this experience in Geneva, so I plan to contact the immigration office directly for (hopefully) some guidance.

I will recommend you stay back in your country and let your husband start his Phd first. At least give it a year first before looking into moving here. This might not be advice you are looking for, but this will help in stabilizing things in the long run. 

I could not agree more.

A PhD student with a gross income of 80/90k CHF a year is likely to be able to rent a studio, 1 bedroom flat....and it takes a long time as regies prefer long term, not fixed term employment.

Usually PhD students get a 2 yrs contract, permit is also issues for the same period.

Once that expires or there are no more grants to continue, the 3 rd country nationals are asked to leave and they dont have the right to get chomage.

I am writing this out of experiece, my ex boyfriend went though this.

With a PhD, after having worked years at the UCLA, he lived here like a student in a small studio etc. that was illegally subleased to him by someone....

The 80-90K CHF looks ok until you are not living in Geneve.....

https://unjoblist.org/lists/DutyStation/Geneva/1

I am not a UN employment specialist but you need to consider that the number of jobs are limited and UN has the parctice of trying to get unpaid interns in...etc.

If I recall the rule well, you need to have a monthly income that is at least 3 times of the rent.

http://www.expatica.com/ch/housing/Renting-a-house-in-Switzerland_101929.html

http://www.englishforum.ch/housing-general/112667-rent-max-1-3-gross-salary-true-false.html

Food for thought - todays article,

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/hundreds-of-rich-foreigners--buy--swiss-residency-thanks-to-derogation/42951460?srg_sm_campaign=general&srg_sm_medium=soc&srg_sm_source=sflow

Am glad to know that you have the insurance coverage sorted, but how are you going to choose a physician before you have found accommodation?  Because if you imagine that it will be simple to find someone suitable for your situation who is located close to your new home and who can also fit in a few visits just before the birth, I’m afraid you’re going to have to think again.

R.

She will be able to get medical support. There are a growinng number of medical centers and it is not extremely difficult to get an appointment for a check up. Claire would not be the first pregnant person moving into Geneve.

Of course, it is not like knowing your doctors for several years and being quite comfortable with them. But this is the price we all pay being expats and moving around. You have to be flexible and adjust to the new country.

In case of emergecy, the hospital is the solution and they will not turn her down. Max. if the insurance co is not known to them, they will ask that they put down the funds upfront. (Worst case scenario).

The medical care is among the best ones globally. They will be probably better covered than anywhere else in the world if they opt even just to take out the local Swiss cover.

The issue in Geneve / Switzerland always around financials. If you have the financials means, you are really well off, if not, well then you struggle with paying it all, the rent, the insurance, the creches and obviously food and daily life is also overpriced.

PhD students have a decent salary in Switzerland. I guess you can probably live on that if you do not immediately look for a job, and hence do not need to pay for a kindergarden. That's because kindergarden is extremely pricey in Switzerland, so especially with two kids, it is most of the times not worth working for one of the parents and stay at home lookinf for the kids ... unless you find a very well paid job, of course.

If you do want to start working, some universities have kindergardens for their employees, with reduced prices compared to normal ones. At least at EPFL they do, you could find out about the university where your husband will work.

My ex boyfried had a gross salary of CHF 80-90K as a PhD student. In my reading that is not a decent salary...especially when you consider

Let`s say that take them around 7K net a month. Not more.

A 2 bedroom (4 pieces) flat is usually these days at least 2500 CHF..

You need to pay health care: TBD but lets take a minimum amount CHF 500

Internet, mobile phone phone, electricity:CHF 200

(guess they will have their own wachine machine with two small kids, neediing extra heating because of the baby, dishwasher etc.)

Season ticket for the parents:  2* 70 CHF just for Geneve:CHF 140

Household and legal protection insurance (lets take an annual 500 CHF for Geneve): 40 CHF

We have not even mentioned food, baby diapers, clothing for the kids etc.

She mentioned that she would like to stay home alone with the baby and send the older kid to the creche. That is in the region of CHF 1500-2500 a month. 

Doing the simple maths, they will be very short of money or will live really frugal...

In a town where a lot of people work for UN, banks, HQs and the salary for many of those is above CHF120K (this is a huge underestimate....saying PhD students have decent salaries...it is a bit interesting....

Obviously we can talk also about the low paid workers who are working in the shops, bars, restaurants etc. but as an expat without having access to social welfare solutions, and not having the back up of your family, but you have to rely on paid services (even a babysitter is at least CHF20 unofficially without taxes)...that is not going to be a lot.

Of course, it is their choices but one has to realize that Geneve is expensive. It is in the 10 most expensice places globally.

So an 80-90K CHF salary looks great when someone arrives for the first time in Geneve but  when living here....you can easily spend the double even alone....if you try to maintain a higher profile and go out.

Please note that the Swiss rules in matter of immigration are quite strict for non-EU citizens, in particular if someone comes to Switzerland under a student (or PHD) regime or family reunion treatment. In such situation, it's not obvious at all that the candidate could obtain a working permit after a few years of stay in Switzerland.

I would recommend that you check the question with an immigration specialist. I could give you the references of such specialist if you send me a private message.

find an unpaid internship ata local NGO, they might be able to give a permit to stay here for more than 3 months at a time. (that's what we're doing.) europe has strict laws for no EU people. but there are ways for us to get in. Good luck.

Just wanted to share my experience to a fellow American.  I also thought that I could find employment at an NGO or at the UN with my previous experience.  This has not been the case. I applied and looked for over a year before giving in and taking an Office Manager job within a company.  Most NGO positions are non-paid internships or short-term-even these are hard to come by.  I am married to an EU citizen so that made things easy in terms of getting a working permit.  Once you have this, you are on equal grounds as a Swiss or EU citizen, but it is hard (almost impossible) for an American to get a position without it. Make sure you can get a permit through your husband's studies.

A few things I found interesting:

-Your monthly salary has to be at least 3 months more than your rent (Ex. 3,000 rent you must have 9,000 salary per month) 3,000 sounds like a lot, but in reality you would be hard pressed to find a nice 2 bedroom for this. My husband came here for 18 months and I stayed in the previous country we were in and he lived in a tiny place. When I came it took me 1.5 years to find a decent place in our price range.  There is a lot of demand and very little supply.

-Health Insurance is expensive! We have limited insurance with a high deductable and pay 400 frans for each of us.

-I am sure you have heard this many times, but this place is very expensive.  That goes for just about everything.

-I don't have children but have made many friends that do. If you are not working you will not get a spot in a creche (in Geneva center). There are private day care facilites but they cost 20-25 per hour.

Reading through this, it sounds so negative. Sorry about that, but just sharing some realities that I was not prepared for. I have lived in other countries before and found Geneva very difficult. I am finally settling in here, and there are some great parts. It is safe and the nature is lovely!

I hope some of this helps :)

Dear Claire,

Negative comments are meant as realistic interventions into what is ultimately a complex, messy, difficult and very personal process. Only you have a full picture of your situation, which is unique to your family. Don't ignore the negatives, but don't stop hearing our encouragement, either. Geneva is a unique, expensive city packed with highly opinionated, highly qualified, and highly competitive people from all parts of the world. Figuring out a way to live here as a foreigner requires a balance of confidence and patience, and humility, and I think you're giving yourselves the time to weigh your options, gather information and figure things out realistically. Based on all you've told me and shared here--and seeing your persistence, openness and planning over the past few weeks--you are beginning to line up your reserouces, and I wouldn't be surprised to see you land on your feet here. Keep taking care of yourself and don't get discouraged. Let us know what the cantonal immigration office says. So I have no sudden, specific illuminating bit of advice. Just checking in to say I'm rooting for you guys and hope to meet you soon.

-Yvette

Shell M, Thank you very much for your post. We genuinely appreciate the look at some of the realities of this place. We don't see it as negative (although it definitely feels overwhelming at times), but actually as incredibly helpful and constructive. BUt we do keep hearing the same sentiment that if you can figure out all the mess, then you get to reap the rewards of a beautiful and interesting place, obviously filled with some awesome people! 

Yvette, I also really appreciate your words of encouragement! I think right now our next step is visiting in March, at which point we will make a stop at the immigration office in Geneva and try to get as much specificity and confidence on what sort of permits we will be issued. We are still a bit concerned that with the annual renewal process we will just constantly be cycling through this stressful process. 

Anyways, we continue to read all of the very helpful posts here and are very grateful for the input. If I learn anything definitive I will certainly post here so that future folks like us can get some answers!