Thanks to all who replied to me online. I was surprised to find that many were alarmed by my claims about some real estate agents in Geneva. You should note I am a lawyers and have advised more 10 people on the acquistion of homes or buildings or office space in Geneva. I also do some consumer protection work. Perhaps that what makes me more critical. Finally, I firmly believe that a free market only works when consumers are adequately informed.

There are many real estate agents in Geneva and some are very good, others are not. Sharing information about experiences is value for helping people to make up their minds.

One that I have found to be generally reliable is NAEF, a large Geneva real estate agent, and Southeby's, if you have 5 million or more to spend. But you should defnitiely look around, often the same property is being offered by four or five real estate agents (often with different prices and conditions).

Do note that the real estate market is to some extent a market that is manipulated by real estate agents. They keep pproperties off the market so as not to flood the market and to make fees from selling to client that pay tem finders fees. There is also much speculation that is not so much, but in part, the real estate agents fault. Sometimes they have recommended to people to ask 30% or more above market value as a negotiating strategy. It is fair enough, but then consumers need to offer 30% below asking prices.

For example, right now in Geneva squae meter prices run from the mid 7000's to a very high 12,000 CHF. Most residential properties ar only worth about 8 or 9,000 per square meter, but agents will advise clients to ask much higher. Of course, they are trying tor maximize their profit.

Moreover, most real esatte agenst will tell you how property prices are constantly going up. They will not explain that in the 1990s property prices in Geneav fell by 20 to 30%, sometimes more. In such circumstances, today's buyers sould be thinking about offering between 15 and 25% below most asking prices.

Of course this is only my unwarranted personal advice, but it is perhaps infomed.

Most of my information on prices comes from personal experience providing unpaid, friendly advice to people who are my friends and are buying or selling property. These people are not speculators, but people looking for a place to live. although I should admit that in the past I have represented some fairly wealthy clients looking to invest in property in Geneva.

My estimates of 7,000 to 12,000 CHF per square meter is based on prices that I have seen accepted or offered, for example, in des Grottes for 8,900 per square meter, another in Avanchets for 7,600 CHF, another in Petit Saconnex for 11,300 CHF. In other words, the estimates are based on about a hundred transaction during the past six years the details of which I have been privy. I would welcome hearing other's experiences.

Any one considering buying property in Geneva should be aware that a good proportion of the property offered by real estate agents is being offered on speculation. In other words it is an investment that someone is trying to turn around to make money. They don't have to sell, but will do so if they can get prices that are significantly higher than the market. For this reason most people I know who buy property offer between 15% and 20% below asking prices. Sometimes this backfires as the seller is really genuinely seeking to sell the property at market prices, but usually the response is either to make a counter offer that is much lower than the original asking price or to withdraw the property and hope that property prices continue to increase.

Right now buying and selling property in Switzerland and especially in Geneva is risky business. Anyone following the standard press will see that Swiss mortgages are extended almost 150% beyond GDP. (In the USA, mortgages were about 91% of GDP when the property market crashed and in the 1990s in Switzerland they were about 100% in Geneva when the market crashed.) In addition the withdrawal of as much as an estimated 70% of foreign deposits in Geneva banks (accompanied, of course, by staff cutbacks) as well as a cutbacks of about 30% in UN staff by the major UN agencies in Geneva are very likely to create a residential housing glut. Thus my prediction is that within the next ten years residential housing prices in Geneva will drop by 20 to 30%.

As an international human rights lawyer I don't necessarily see this as bad news. It means more young Swiss people will be able to afford housing in places like Geneva, although probably renting (rents have already dropped and are in any event rather controlled--never sign a contract that links your rent to inflation as company's like Regie du Rhone try to offer). It also means that speculation will decrease, which in my view leads to a more stable equitable and economy.

Finally, those of you who think that a real estate agent has nothing to do with the sale of property (yes, I actually received some emails suggesting this), should be particularly careful about hiring one to sell or find property for you. The honesty and integrity of a real estate agent is very important in the process even if the legal contract is a matter for a notary. The Swiss, perhaps more than any other people I have met, are very careful with what they agree to. They will say, or have a real estate agent say, things that are not true, but, of course, these things will not appear in a carefully drafted contract so you will never be able to rely on the misrepresentations (unless you've recorded them as some people have done, but a very questionable action unless you inform the other party first). I always advise people to demand everything they intend to rely on in writing, even an email is better than a real estate agent getting down on his knees and promising that the landlord will buy a fridge before you move in. Also it is wise to state that all representations made in writing to you are conditions of the contract...or better yet list them all if you want to rely on them.

Again this merely friendly unwarranted advice, so test it yourself and let me know your ideas, thoughts, comments, criticisms of what I suggest. Remember the more information consumers share the more they empower themselves.

cutbacks of about 30% in UN staff by the major UN agencies in Geneva, do you have more information on this (without risking to be off topic, this is still relevant to the thread!?)

thanks!

Sergio read the local papers. This is public knowledge.

thanks Curtis. My partner works at the UN. I was aware of the layoffs at WHO and cutbacks at the global fund.

I didn't know anything about redundancies elsewhere at UN Geneva HQ or within anywhere else in the UN system (and googling around doesn't show anything)?

Indeed, there is a significant gap between asking and transaction prices in Geneva.

I hope this is an useful reference:

http://www.glocals.com/forums/geneva/where-how-in-geneva/The-REAL-real-estate-prices-in-Geneva-157248.htm#msg_157248

I've had a good experience with NAEF (for renting), too.

Concerning price per square meter, it can reach easily 10'000 even for apartments in the far countryside.  And I've seen much worse -- 30'000 CHF for a studio in the Old Town.

30K CHF as asking price, not transaction price unless you're crazy or money laundering. If you pay 30K CHF / m2 for a studio, even assuming you have the money in cash, this makes 600K CHF for 20m2. Trying to get a say 4% net yield (minimum required return by institutional investors such as pension funds) requires a 6% gross yield, which makes 3000 CHF / month (+ "charges"). Now assume the more realistic case that your downpayment is 20% and take a loan for 480K CHF. As soon as interest rates go over 2% (which they will), you will be losing money with your "investment".

So don't get fooled by random asking prices or even real transactions which are just disguised money laundering operations as they do not make any economical sense.

I like this post.  Cap rates are in the toilet.  I can't fathom buying RE in Switzerland for a looong time.

Curtis,

Thanks for the post, it's very helpful. I'm looking to buy myself as I'm tired of "wasting" money on rent - might as well put it towards the property and get something back one day.

Question, any idea what the deal is with selling property here? I hear lots of mixed opinions on elevated taxes for non-nationals etc.

Quick General answer is that most foreigners with tax liability in CH or their home country will take a significant tax hit if they sell Swiss property. 

If you were saying that offers should be 20 - 30 pct of the aking price back in 2012, I cannot imagine what is your opinion today ! I think your 10 years prediction turned into 2 years.  Is there any website where we can get the information on each transaction in the Leman area ?  Like in US you have the registers that you can have access on line.  This will bring more transparency to the housing market ...

If you know where to get this figures will be greatly appreciated

My undersranding as far as it concerns taxation in CH, when selling property you will pay taxes from any additional value arising from selling price minus buying price. As long as there are no profit there should be no big tax burden.

Luckily that's not the case for me, as I'm Portuguese/Canadian. The only page I found with relevant information was this one:

http://ge.ch/impots/impot-sur-les-benefices-et-gains-immobiliers-0

But I think this is just on any revenue/gain that you might have from the buying price? Am I correct in assuming that?

And yes, I second Maria.. it would be nice to see a graph with the trends. It seems like there isn't much talk about hte housing market, or maybe I'm just not paying that much attention.

Are you speaking from experience?

I think I was using similar sources as you.

In addition going to diging Extrait foncier here

http://www.ge.ch/registre_foncier/publications-foncieres.asp

You can check OCSTAT stats here

http://www.ge.ch/statistique/domaines/05/05_05/tableaux.asp

for example, Distribution des prix au m2 des appartements neufs et anciens en propriété par étage (PPE) vendus, par commune, depuis 2004

or

Distribution de la valeur des appartements en propriété par étage (PPE) vendus, depuis 2007

Thanks Timur will check those websites. Though I was thinking more like what ZILLOW does in the US and u put the address of a house.. and gives you the history of the last sales, movements in the mkt, how much u pay on taxes.. all the details

like this :

Price History

This is great! I see that old apartments have more than doubled in ten years.. damn!

I said 20-30% less than askign prices...at least. (Not 70-80% less as your responses implies.) 

Yes, as you will note capital gains taxes on the profit run from 50% if you hold the property for less than 2 yrs. down to 0% if you sell after owning the property for more than 25 yrs. Also note that if you rent the property you will pay the usual property taxes plus a hefty tax on the rental income.

PS - property transactions in Switzerland are really only advantageous to realitors, notaries, banks and the tax authorities (public treasury)...unless you want to live in your house/apartment for quite some.      

This is NOT normal.  In any real estate market.

It just followed the trend in evolving markets.

That's true.

Actually, anyone buying today would hardly make any profit when selling afterwards.

The market price is peaked already.

So basically investment is not a motivation now, the motivation is to save on rent and to enjoy the benefits of having owned property.

do you know what sort of tax rates you'd pay for renting or subletting for a small period of time?

It depends on how long you have owned the property according to the cadastre, not how long you rent it. If the sublet is 'off the books' you probably will pay not taxes, but may not be not acting with in the law and sometimes thse matters are controlled so you might get caught.

http://gecofim.swiss/

The reasons for customers’ interest in real estate in Switzerland can be very different – it is the image and quality of life, buying a house for holidays or for permanent residence, education, relocation for business purposes, investment and security.

Various reasons for the acquisition of real estate entail different consequences – not only in relation to tax and legal aspects of the issue, but also in relation to matters of inheritance, financial structuring and asset allocation. In addition, the cost of acquisition, possession and sale of different in each case.

One of the main causes of long-term investments in the Swiss real estate are the political, legal and economic stability of Switzerland, as well as the stable Swiss franc (CHF). In addition, it should be called quality of life in Switzerland with its low crime rate, outstanding construction achievements, excellent education and excellent medical facilities.

The procedure for the acquisition, possession and sale of real estate and the tax consequences primarily regulated at the cantonal and communal levels.

In practice, each individual transaction must be analyzed on the basis of local laws and regulations, and in this you will need the help of experts.

http://gecofim.swiss/

Great comments. But now Im not sure why the prices from the 90's matter in today's offers.

Also, the purpose of resuscitating a thread that began in March 2012.

Since some of the information is still very relevant. It seemed relevant to resustiate the thread.

The big swing in the 1990's, for example, is relevant history. The worst history often repeats itself because we are ignorant of the past.

In any event, take it for the value it offers you. Several people have pointed out that it has value for them, which makes it worthwhile for me. If it doesn't have value for you fair enough.

In any event, I will probably update it this summer when time permits based on more recent experiences...some of which prove the valu of remembering the past.

WARNING : Stay away from Franck Jespierre Immobiler: The man is a con artist and crook.