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Subpar&overly expensive flat rentals on standard property websites
Hi everyone,

I am considering accepting a research job offer from the University of Geneva. The annual salary before taxes is 69,000 CHF, and I understand that there are ~15% taxes to pay on that (as the larger ~20% social charge taxes are already paid by the employer). I know that in CH there are the yearly "bonuses", but dividing the yearly amount equally throughout the year seems to lead to an equivalent monthly netto of ~4,800 CHF. Since this appears to be below the Swiss average, I am worried about the quality of life that this money would afford me (single guy, 30s).

I'd intend to rent a furnished 1-bedroom flat on my own (i.e. without sharing), nothing luxurious but still modern and pleasant. I anticipated that, as mostly everywhere in Europe, such a rent will take up roughly 1/3 of my salary (1600 CHF), however the property searches I did suggest it's more like 1/2. Looking on Homegate and Immostreet, two renting sites popular for Geneva, it seems that what 1600 CHF rents you seems to be only "2 pieces" flats, i.e. bedroom coincides with living room, whereas for an actual 1-bedroom flat (separate rooms) it seems you'd have to fork up around 2500 (bills not included!). Also, most of these flats seemed really run down, and situated in (&with views to other) rather ugly 1960/70s buildings (e.g. http://www.homegate.ch/rent/104906279?oa=false). Now I obviously don't expect to live in the city centre, however I expected there'd be a good selection of flats that don't look like UK council housing.

I'd be quite happy to live across the border if that significantly decreases the rent, but rents in e.g. Annemasse don't seem that much lower, and I also understand that living in FR attracts paying higher taxes, which after all might not save you any money at all.

I heard there's an "underground" market for the "good" flats that everyone wants. As strange as it seems to be looking for flat rentals through e.g. internet forums, I'd be happy to live somewhere temporarily and wait till I find a better flat within my ~1600 budget. But I haven't really found any such "underground"/word-of-mouth markets, and before accepting the offer I'd like to know for sure that I won't be paying more than half of my salary for rent.

Rent aside, I know all other costs are also very high in Geneva, and I am wondering whether the "French solution" - buying groceries and everything else from across the border - actually leads to considerable savings for people on below-average Swiss earnings. All in all, assuming that no more than a third of the salary (wishful thinking?) goes towards renting the 1-bedroom flat, what standard of living does the remaining ~3,200 CHF afford?

Thanks so much in advance for any thoughts/advice!
The text you are quoting:
Hi everyone,

I am considering accepting a research job offer from the University of Geneva. The annual salary before taxes is 69,000 CHF, and I understand that there are ~15% taxes to pay on that (as the larger ~20% social charge taxes are already paid by the employer). I know that in CH there are the yearly "bonuses", but dividing the yearly amount equally throughout the year seems to lead to an equivalent monthly netto of ~4,800 CHF. Since this appears to be below the Swiss average, I am worried about the quality of life that this money would afford me (single guy, 30s).

I'd intend to rent a furnished 1-bedroom flat on my own (i.e. without sharing), nothing luxurious but still modern and pleasant. I anticipated that, as mostly everywhere in Europe, such a rent will take up roughly 1/3 of my salary (1600 CHF), however the property searches I did suggest it's more like 1/2. Looking on Homegate and Immostreet, two renting sites popular for Geneva, it seems that what 1600 CHF rents you seems to be only "2 pieces" flats, i.e. bedroom coincides with living room, whereas for an actual 1-bedroom flat (separate rooms) it seems you'd have to fork up around 2500 (bills not included!). Also, most of these flats seemed really run down, and situated in (&with views to other) rather ugly 1960/70s buildings (e.g. http://www.homegate.ch/rent/104906279?oa=false). Now I obviously don't expect to live in the city centre, however I expected there'd be a good selection of flats that don't look like UK council housing.

I'd be quite happy to live across the border if that significantly decreases the rent, but rents in e.g. Annemasse don't seem that much lower, and I also understand that living in FR attracts paying higher taxes, which after all might not save you any money at all.

I heard there's an "underground" market for the "good" flats that everyone wants. As strange as it seems to be looking for flat rentals through e.g. internet forums, I'd be happy to live somewhere temporarily and wait till I find a better flat within my ~1600 budget. But I haven't really found any such "underground"/word-of-mouth markets, and before accepting the offer I'd like to know for sure that I won't be paying more than half of my salary for rent.

Rent aside, I know all other costs are also very high in Geneva, and I am wondering whether the "French solution" - buying groceries and everything else from across the border - actually leads to considerable savings for people on below-average Swiss earnings. All in all, assuming that no more than a third of the salary (wishful thinking?) goes towards renting the 1-bedroom flat, what standard of living does the remaining ~3,200 CHF afford?

Thanks so much in advance for any thoughts/advice!
art vandelayOct 25, 2014 @ 23:20
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Re: Subpar&overly expensive flat rentals on standard property websites
Post 1

Hello,


Just came across your request on housing. There is also the alternative, when working in Geneva to live in the Canton Vaud (anything beyond Versoix). Especially Nyon is a lively and beautiful town and only a 12 min train ride away from Geneva main station. Here the prices are lower, and the flats are bigger ...


I would look into search 'rooms to rent in Nyon' or here is a weblink: colocation which means sharing a flat, house, etc.. http://www.easywg.ch/vaud/colocation-nyon/annonces/l


The university should also be able to connect you to some student networks, as they often have this information on affordable housing ( I know this from our trainees we engage)!


Shopping in France - yes for certain things, but the Euro pushed prices up as well. There are also now many low cost supermarkets, such as Lidl, Aldi and Denner etc.. which are worthwhile to investigate. Another alternative is shopping at weekly markets, its all fresh, different and often locally produced!


Hope this helps you further and good luck.


Sabine


 

The text you are quoting:

Hello,


Just came across your request on housing. There is also the alternative, when working in Geneva to live in the Canton Vaud (anything beyond Versoix). Especially Nyon is a lively and beautiful town and only a 12 min train ride away from Geneva main station. Here the prices are lower, and the flats are bigger ...


I would look into search 'rooms to rent in Nyon' or here is a weblink: colocation which means sharing a flat, house, etc.. http://www.easywg.ch/vaud/colocation-nyon/annonces/l


The university should also be able to connect you to some student networks, as they often have this information on affordable housing ( I know this from our trainees we engage)!


Shopping in France - yes for certain things, but the Euro pushed prices up as well. There are also now many low cost supermarkets, such as Lidl, Aldi and Denner etc.. which are worthwhile to investigate. Another alternative is shopping at weekly markets, its all fresh, different and often locally produced!


Hope this helps you further and good luck.


Sabine


 


Sabine Granger, Oct 26, 2014 @ 08:16
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Post 2

Many thanks for your very helpful reply sabine !

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Many thanks for your very helpful reply sabine !


art vandelay, Oct 26, 2014 @ 22:17
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Re: Subpar&overly expensive flat rentals on standard property websites
Post 3

Hello,


Prices in Geneva is something unpredictable - you may find a cheap flat in a good area for considerable price and visa versa


However for every flat you found you will have 20-30 people (in average) applying for is as well, so getting decent flat for decent price is possible, however takes a lot of time.


Also flats in Geneva are unfurnished - even no oven and fridge so you will need to buy everything from zero


My advise - you should find a temporal living - f.e. subrent something (but do it officially, with a contract which will be sent to regie responsible for this appartment!) and while you have this subernt you may look for something else.


Another thing about Geneva canton is that in fact it is very small so even if you find something outside of city center it will be very fast to get to job. Also if you don't have a car you should check with public transport - it is more important that distance - f.e. if you work in Science II it will be convinient for you to rent along the buses 19 and 2, which is in areas Onex, Vernier, Chatelaine, Charmilles etc


Don't rely on University - for post-docs they do nothing - the sole thing you may get is the temporal room in student housing, but they always have a lack of space so it is unlikely that you will get one, but you may try.


About prices - for one person I don't think it worse going to France really - it is a good thing for families, when you come with your own car and get a lot of food for a whole week.


And myself personally I would live in France only if I had a car - cause it takes quite a lot of time to go from there, not that much buses, traffic jams and so on.


And about 1/3 - yes, actually you woudn't be allowed to rent a flat which is more then 1/3 - you will need to send along with other documents document about your salary.


And websites along with homegate and immoscout you may use anibis


If you have any more questions left about living in Geneva or University of Geneva - you are welcome to ask it


Regards, Liubov

The text you are quoting:

Hello,


Prices in Geneva is something unpredictable - you may find a cheap flat in a good area for considerable price and visa versa


However for every flat you found you will have 20-30 people (in average) applying for is as well, so getting decent flat for decent price is possible, however takes a lot of time.


Also flats in Geneva are unfurnished - even no oven and fridge so you will need to buy everything from zero


My advise - you should find a temporal living - f.e. subrent something (but do it officially, with a contract which will be sent to regie responsible for this appartment!) and while you have this subernt you may look for something else.


Another thing about Geneva canton is that in fact it is very small so even if you find something outside of city center it will be very fast to get to job. Also if you don't have a car you should check with public transport - it is more important that distance - f.e. if you work in Science II it will be convinient for you to rent along the buses 19 and 2, which is in areas Onex, Vernier, Chatelaine, Charmilles etc


Don't rely on University - for post-docs they do nothing - the sole thing you may get is the temporal room in student housing, but they always have a lack of space so it is unlikely that you will get one, but you may try.


About prices - for one person I don't think it worse going to France really - it is a good thing for families, when you come with your own car and get a lot of food for a whole week.


And myself personally I would live in France only if I had a car - cause it takes quite a lot of time to go from there, not that much buses, traffic jams and so on.


And about 1/3 - yes, actually you woudn't be allowed to rent a flat which is more then 1/3 - you will need to send along with other documents document about your salary.


And websites along with homegate and immoscout you may use anibis


If you have any more questions left about living in Geneva or University of Geneva - you are welcome to ask it


Regards, Liubov


Liubov D, Oct 27, 2014 @ 10:00
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Post 4

Liubov - thank you so much for your reply , it's really helpful !

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Liubov - thank you so much for your reply , it's really helpful !


art vandelay, Oct 27, 2014 @ 10:25
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Post 5

My pleasure! The weblink I sent you can be selected for an English menu as well...but the adverts are mainly in French.


Greetings,


Sabine

The text you are quoting:

My pleasure! The weblink I sent you can be selected for an English menu as well...but the adverts are mainly in French.


Greetings,


Sabine


Sabine Granger, Oct 27, 2014 @ 23:10
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Post 6

2 comments from my experience:


1) Check if you can live outside Geneva canton as per your work-permit restrictions. I was informed that I can rent in GVA only, as permit B holder. But I'm non-EU national, it can make some difference


2) Search for the lease take-over here on glocals - in this case there may be much less than 20-30 other people competing for the same apartment

The text you are quoting:

2 comments from my experience:


1) Check if you can live outside Geneva canton as per your work-permit restrictions. I was informed that I can rent in GVA only, as permit B holder. But I'm non-EU national, it can make some difference


2) Search for the lease take-over here on glocals - in this case there may be much less than 20-30 other people competing for the same apartment


Lida N, Oct 28, 2014 @ 18:49
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Post 7

Thanks again everyone for your responses!

Assuming one has the patience to house-hunt for a good few weeks (maybe several months), and with a bit of luck, it seems to me that one can find a nice 1-bedroom flat (kitchen, living, bedroom) for around 1800CHF/month (excluding bills). Importantly, I am referring to a flat in an older (more 'classical') building as opposed to in one of the soviet-style concrete buildings that seem to be omnipresent in Geneva.

In terms of living outside of Geneva: living in FR does seem to be much less convenient than it used to be due to new tax regulations. And rents in well-connected villages of the Vaud canton, like gorgeous Nyon, don't seem to really be smaller than in Geneva, although at least there most flats I've seen were in very nice buildings.

So bottom line, assuming one is left with, say, around 1800 CHF per month after paying all taxes, rent and utility bills -- is that enough for not just food and transportation, but also for the occasional night out, classical concert / theatre, long weekend at a chalet etc? Or is it "just enough to get by"?

The text you are quoting:

Thanks again everyone for your responses!

Assuming one has the patience to house-hunt for a good few weeks (maybe several months), and with a bit of luck, it seems to me that one can find a nice 1-bedroom flat (kitchen, living, bedroom) for around 1800CHF/month (excluding bills). Importantly, I am referring to a flat in an older (more 'classical') building as opposed to in one of the soviet-style concrete buildings that seem to be omnipresent in Geneva.

In terms of living outside of Geneva: living in FR does seem to be much less convenient than it used to be due to new tax regulations. And rents in well-connected villages of the Vaud canton, like gorgeous Nyon, don't seem to really be smaller than in Geneva, although at least there most flats I've seen were in very nice buildings.

So bottom line, assuming one is left with, say, around 1800 CHF per month after paying all taxes, rent and utility bills -- is that enough for not just food and transportation, but also for the occasional night out, classical concert / theatre, long weekend at a chalet etc? Or is it "just enough to get by"?


art vandelay, Oct 29, 2014 @ 15:25
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Post 8

It all depends on your target savings rate...


With 1800 left you're already down to 37% of your netto.


Let's say you spend 800 on food, transport and ridicolously overpriced drinks and amenities (possible).


That leaves ~20% in the bank, are you confortable with that? Are you planning any significant purchase/investment in the long/medium term?

The text you are quoting:

It all depends on your target savings rate...


With 1800 left you're already down to 37% of your netto.


Let's say you spend 800 on food, transport and ridicolously overpriced drinks and amenities (possible).


That leaves ~20% in the bank, are you confortable with that? Are you planning any significant purchase/investment in the long/medium term?


Paul D, Oct 29, 2014 @ 21:15
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