Login or Sign Up
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Forums in Geneva > Geneva > To frontalier or not to frontalier
 
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
To frontalier or not to frontalier

That is the question. I know this appears regularly in the forums but I didn't find much since the major changes recently to the currency and healthcare situation. I'd like to know what people think today - especially anyone who has recently made the change.


My opinion in a nutshell, is that financially speaking it's not that advantageous anymore. Given a usual spouse+2 kids scenario, on an example income of 12000 a month, net income in geneva is around 9400, while in france on today's rules I estimate it would be a a few hundred less, and will get worse as the soc security rises to 12.8%. Also, we can probably assume that exchange rate changes will probably not be favorable. Of course you can easily save about 1000 a rent for a decent family home. There are downsides of course (commute, bureaucracy, the constantly changing rules, etc) but from a pure financial perspective it seems like a pretty modest savings that can easily be wiped out with even a modest currency fluctuation.


But the best argument to being a frontalier seems to be that buying a place in france is still possible, while in geneva it's impossible at the salary I'm talking about above. That's the only reason I'm considering it.


If anyone as different views on this than me I'd love to hear their thoughts (and rationalizations).


 


 

The text you are quoting:

That is the question. I know this appears regularly in the forums but I didn't find much since the major changes recently to the currency and healthcare situation. I'd like to know what people think today - especially anyone who has recently made the change.


My opinion in a nutshell, is that financially speaking it's not that advantageous anymore. Given a usual spouse+2 kids scenario, on an example income of 12000 a month, net income in geneva is around 9400, while in france on today's rules I estimate it would be a a few hundred less, and will get worse as the soc security rises to 12.8%. Also, we can probably assume that exchange rate changes will probably not be favorable. Of course you can easily save about 1000 a rent for a decent family home. There are downsides of course (commute, bureaucracy, the constantly changing rules, etc) but from a pure financial perspective it seems like a pretty modest savings that can easily be wiped out with even a modest currency fluctuation.


But the best argument to being a frontalier seems to be that buying a place in france is still possible, while in geneva it's impossible at the salary I'm talking about above. That's the only reason I'm considering it.


If anyone as different views on this than me I'd love to hear their thoughts (and rationalizations).


 


 


alex barreirosSep 13, 2015 @ 16:00
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
 
14 Replies | 4377 Views      |  Send to friend
 
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: To frontalier or not to frontalier
Post 1

Hello, 


I don't think there have been that many changes... see the following post - all of these points still apply: http://www.glocals.com/forums/geneva/where-how-in-geneva/Frontalier-Health-Insurance-Changes-213504.htm#msg_213828


cheers

The text you are quoting:

Hello, 


I don't think there have been that many changes... see the following post - all of these points still apply: http://www.glocals.com/forums/geneva/where-how-in-geneva/Frontalier-Health-Insurance-Changes-213504.htm#msg_213828


cheers


anna i, Sep 13, 2015 @ 22:05
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: To frontalier or not to frontalier
Post 2

The situation is horrible if you only have one job in Switzerland and the other in France, but if you have 2 jobs there its perfect specially if you are planning to invest in a property. Prices are pretty low right now to buy, by the way.

The text you are quoting:

The situation is horrible if you only have one job in Switzerland and the other in France, but if you have 2 jobs there its perfect specially if you are planning to invest in a property. Prices are pretty low right now to buy, by the way.


Carolina Barriga, Sep 14, 2015 @ 11:12
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: To frontalier or not to frontalier
Post 3

Hi Alex,


Financially you're probably about right except you underestimate the savings: as well as rent, pretty much all services are cheaper in France, as is food (there's nothing to stop you shopping in France even if you live in CH, of course, but most people don't).


At the end of the day, you should live where you will be happier. If you're a city person and don't mind living in an apartment, you should probably live in Geneva. If you're a country person, would like to live somewhere with outside space, and don't mind commuting or can use flexible hours to avoid rush hour, France is great.

The text you are quoting:

Hi Alex,


Financially you're probably about right except you underestimate the savings: as well as rent, pretty much all services are cheaper in France, as is food (there's nothing to stop you shopping in France even if you live in CH, of course, but most people don't).


At the end of the day, you should live where you will be happier. If you're a city person and don't mind living in an apartment, you should probably live in Geneva. If you're a country person, would like to live somewhere with outside space, and don't mind commuting or can use flexible hours to avoid rush hour, France is great.


adam_jeff, Sep 14, 2015 @ 14:08
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: To frontalier or not to frontalier
Post 4

What really killed the idea of us living again in CH as opposed to France, is the cost of health care.


All our Swiss friends complain how excessively expensive is monthly medical insurance. One ex-colleague living in Vevey pays CHF1520.-- just for him and his wife.


So we chose to live in France and are perfectly happy here as we have everything on our doorstep [Geneva airport for travelling overseas] and far lower costs, including food as Adam-Jeff has already pointed out.

The text you are quoting:

What really killed the idea of us living again in CH as opposed to France, is the cost of health care.


All our Swiss friends complain how excessively expensive is monthly medical insurance. One ex-colleague living in Vevey pays CHF1520.-- just for him and his wife.


So we chose to live in France and are perfectly happy here as we have everything on our doorstep [Geneva airport for travelling overseas] and far lower costs, including food as Adam-Jeff has already pointed out.


sheila c, Sep 14, 2015 @ 17:10
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: To frontalier or not to frontalier
Post 5

That's some crazy healthcare fees! I pay about 800 for a family of four and receive about 600 childcare benefits. From what I researched, in France I'd pay 8% for social security of worse quality (so 960 a month given the example salary I used) and receive only about 150 childcare. The net difference in my scenario favors switzerland by far.


It is expensive but considering the low tax, it's a lot cheaper on the whole than other countries I've lived with public healthcare.


As for food costs, I shop in france once or twice a week so although prices here are high, I don't think I'd save huge amounts in this regard. But there are of course all sorts of small costs that add up and are hard to calculate, but I doubt this would be more than a few hundred at most.


I guess it all varies quite a lot from household to household.


 

The text you are quoting:

That's some crazy healthcare fees! I pay about 800 for a family of four and receive about 600 childcare benefits. From what I researched, in France I'd pay 8% for social security of worse quality (so 960 a month given the example salary I used) and receive only about 150 childcare. The net difference in my scenario favors switzerland by far.


It is expensive but considering the low tax, it's a lot cheaper on the whole than other countries I've lived with public healthcare.


As for food costs, I shop in france once or twice a week so although prices here are high, I don't think I'd save huge amounts in this regard. But there are of course all sorts of small costs that add up and are hard to calculate, but I doubt this would be more than a few hundred at most.


I guess it all varies quite a lot from household to household.


 


alex barreiros, Sep 14, 2015 @ 17:57
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: To frontalier or not to frontalier
Post 6

We also pay around 800-900 for a family of 4 in Vaud.


Important, do not forget: If you live in France and want to have access to swiss health care, you MUST take a swiss health insurance (Lamal frontalier). The french private health insurances are not existing any longer. If you need health treatment, the french social security will redirect you to St. Julien, Lyon or Grenoble for treatments, but not allow to go to a swiss hospital or doctor, even if much nearer in distance!

The text you are quoting:

We also pay around 800-900 for a family of 4 in Vaud.


Important, do not forget: If you live in France and want to have access to swiss health care, you MUST take a swiss health insurance (Lamal frontalier). The french private health insurances are not existing any longer. If you need health treatment, the french social security will redirect you to St. Julien, Lyon or Grenoble for treatments, but not allow to go to a swiss hospital or doctor, even if much nearer in distance!


anna i, Sep 14, 2015 @ 20:33
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: To frontalier or not to frontalier
Post 7

We also pay around 800-900 for a family of 4 in Vaud.

Important, do not forget: If you live in France and want to have access to swiss health care, you MUST take a swiss health insurance (Lamal frontalier). The french private health insurances are not existing any longer. If you need health treatment, the french social security will redirect you to St. Julien, Lyon or Grenoble for treatments, but not allow to go to a swiss hospital or doctor, even if much nearer in distance!


Sep 14, 15 20:33

True, most likely, as you seem to know best but what do you feel is wrong with French health system? It is excellent.


I have been in Thonon-les-Bains hospital twice this year, as well as UCH Grenoble and all three times it was a more than pleasant experience despite the circumstances. Excellent care, thorough, considerate, professional staff. Good food [for hospitals that is] and even good follow-up service.


Why would anyone living in France want to pay extra to go to Swiss hospitals - there are a sufficient number hereabouts?

The text you are quoting:

True, most likely, as you seem to know best but what do you feel is wrong with French health system? It is excellent.


I have been in Thonon-les-Bains hospital twice this year, as well as UCH Grenoble and all three times it was a more than pleasant experience despite the circumstances. Excellent care, thorough, considerate, professional staff. Good food [for hospitals that is] and even good follow-up service.


Why would anyone living in France want to pay extra to go to Swiss hospitals - there are a sufficient number hereabouts?


sheila c, Sep 14, 2015 @ 20:42
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: To frontalier or not to frontalier
Post 8

Sheila,


You don't seem to know what the "desert medical" situation is in neighboring France, in particular in Pays de Gex. Yes, you can certainly chose to subscribe to french social security, pay 9% of your salary (easily exceeding the 800-900CHF you pay in CH) and forced to go to Grenoble or Lyon for treatment (2h to 3h away!). Does this make sense? This instead of just hopping over the border and getting to the Geneva cantonal hospital, which has excellent facilities, or any other private hospital in Switzerland, near your workplace. 


Sure, the french health system may be excellent... but not in the french surroundings of Geneva. The suppression of private health insurances for "frontaliers" has brought down a market which consisted in young, healthy border crossers getting relatively cheap insurance and treatment in Switzerland. No french doctor had interest to move to expensive Pays de Gex as they are bound to fixed rates which allow for a decent salary in elsewhere in France, but not here. As a consequence, it's a well-known fact that the Pays de Gex has one of the lowest density in doctors of France. Now that this frontalier insurance is gone, most frontaliers were forced to look in France: french doctors in 100km of surroundings are now completely overrun, taking months for a simple checkup appointments: By own experience, I know how difficult - if not impossible - it was to get an appointment with a pediatrist, a logopedist, or any other speciality in the french border region.


As a matter of fact, the french health insurance mess was one of the main reasons for us crossing the border from Pays de Gex to Vaud - and we know of many cases like us who have moved over the last 1-2 years to Switzerland.


 

The text you are quoting:

Sheila,


You don't seem to know what the "desert medical" situation is in neighboring France, in particular in Pays de Gex. Yes, you can certainly chose to subscribe to french social security, pay 9% of your salary (easily exceeding the 800-900CHF you pay in CH) and forced to go to Grenoble or Lyon for treatment (2h to 3h away!). Does this make sense? This instead of just hopping over the border and getting to the Geneva cantonal hospital, which has excellent facilities, or any other private hospital in Switzerland, near your workplace. 


Sure, the french health system may be excellent... but not in the french surroundings of Geneva. The suppression of private health insurances for "frontaliers" has brought down a market which consisted in young, healthy border crossers getting relatively cheap insurance and treatment in Switzerland. No french doctor had interest to move to expensive Pays de Gex as they are bound to fixed rates which allow for a decent salary in elsewhere in France, but not here. As a consequence, it's a well-known fact that the Pays de Gex has one of the lowest density in doctors of France. Now that this frontalier insurance is gone, most frontaliers were forced to look in France: french doctors in 100km of surroundings are now completely overrun, taking months for a simple checkup appointments: By own experience, I know how difficult - if not impossible - it was to get an appointment with a pediatrist, a logopedist, or any other speciality in the french border region.


As a matter of fact, the french health insurance mess was one of the main reasons for us crossing the border from Pays de Gex to Vaud - and we know of many cases like us who have moved over the last 1-2 years to Switzerland.


 


anna i, Sep 14, 2015 @ 22:16
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: To frontalier or not to frontalier
Post 9

As previously said, I can only speak from experience and my experience[s] here in neighbouring France have been nothing short of excellent. We do not have to wait months for appointments, and living here on the southern side of Lake Geneva, we are completely well aware of this of course.


But ultimately, the original poster must make up his own mind what he wishes to do.

The text you are quoting:

As previously said, I can only speak from experience and my experience[s] here in neighbouring France have been nothing short of excellent. We do not have to wait months for appointments, and living here on the southern side of Lake Geneva, we are completely well aware of this of course.


But ultimately, the original poster must make up his own mind what he wishes to do.


sheila c, Sep 15, 2015 @ 14:43
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: To frontalier or not to frontalier
Post 10

One thing to keep into mind is that by moving to France you lose your B/C permit and the opportunity of asking for Swiss citizenship after 10 years of residence. You are given instead a G permit (frontalier) which makes more difficult to find a job on the Swiss market. Expecially with these burst of nationalism/xenophobia brought forward by trashy political parties such as UDC.

The text you are quoting:

One thing to keep into mind is that by moving to France you lose your B/C permit and the opportunity of asking for Swiss citizenship after 10 years of residence. You are given instead a G permit (frontalier) which makes more difficult to find a job on the Swiss market. Expecially with these burst of nationalism/xenophobia brought forward by trashy political parties such as UDC.


TheOmegaMan, Oct 4, 2015 @ 20:06
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: To frontalier or not to frontalier
Post 11

That's some crazy healthcare fees! I pay about 800 for a family of four and receive about 600 childcare benefits. From what I researched, in France I'd pay 8% for social security of worse quality (so 960 a month given the example salary I used) and receive only about 150 childcare. The net difference in my scenario favors switzerland by far.

It is expensive but considering the low tax, it's a lot cheaper on the whole than other countries I've lived with public healthcare.

As for food costs, I shop in france once or twice a week so although prices here are high, I don't think I'd save huge amounts in this regard. But there are of course all sorts of small costs that add up and are hard to calculate, but I doubt this would be more than a few hundred at most.

I guess it all varies quite a lot from household to household.

 


Sep 14, 15 17:57

Hello,


Just to clarify, you can receive Swiss childcare benefits as a frontalier.  If you have 3 kids, it's a whopping 1'000fr per month. Patrick

The text you are quoting:

Hello,


Just to clarify, you can receive Swiss childcare benefits as a frontalier.  If you have 3 kids, it's a whopping 1'000fr per month. Patrick


Patrick S, Oct 5, 2015 @ 11:40
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: To frontalier or not to frontalier
Post 12

Any other experience worth sharing concerning doctors in France vs doctors in Geneva?


I (and quite a few of my friends) noticed that the quality of health care in Switzerland leaves a lot to be desired, with a lot of amateurism and a concern for solving your heavy wallet syndrome before your real illnesses.  That's very surprising given the reputation for Switzerland.

The text you are quoting:

Any other experience worth sharing concerning doctors in France vs doctors in Geneva?


I (and quite a few of my friends) noticed that the quality of health care in Switzerland leaves a lot to be desired, with a lot of amateurism and a concern for solving your heavy wallet syndrome before your real illnesses.  That's very surprising given the reputation for Switzerland.


TheOmegaMan, Oct 18, 2015 @ 20:17
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: To frontalier or not to frontalier
Post 13

Any other experience worth sharing concerning doctors in France vs doctors in Geneva?

I (and quite a few of my friends) noticed that the quality of health care in Switzerland leaves a lot to be desired, with a lot of amateurism and a concern for solving your heavy wallet syndrome before your real illnesses.  That's very surprising given the reputation for Switzerland.


Oct 18, 15 20:17

As the brilliant Tom Lehrer once remarked :


"...........these doctors specialise in diseases of the rich"

The text you are quoting:

As the brilliant Tom Lehrer once remarked :


"...........these doctors specialise in diseases of the rich"


sheila c, Oct 18, 2015 @ 20:20
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: To frontalier or not to frontalier
Post 14

I can say that my personal experience of HUG Geneva (University teaching hospital) was terrible!! 


I had a serious medical problem and they did totally unnecessary tests which cost almost CHF2000 the first time I went and still sent me away, the next day I had to call an ambulance to take me there and they sent me away a second time with some pain killers.  I spent another night in absolute agony and finally called a mobile doctor the next morning who came to the apartment straight away and it took her two minutes to tell me I should be in hospital.  When I told her that I had been there twice and showed her the paperwork she was so angry.  She called an ambulance and wrote a letter to the hospital (by the way an ambulance cost around CHF 800 each time).  She told the paramedics that they were not to let me leave the hospital until I was admitted and if the doctors gave me any trouble she would come there herself - yes really!!  I ended up having to have an emergency operation in the early hours of the morning and spent the following month in hospital.


The aftercare at Beau Sejour was fantastic but the initial response at HUG was a disgrace!!  It says something when the doctor makes such negative comments about a major hospital.  So you definately pay your money and not always get good service in return here in Geneva. 

The text you are quoting:

I can say that my personal experience of HUG Geneva (University teaching hospital) was terrible!! 


I had a serious medical problem and they did totally unnecessary tests which cost almost CHF2000 the first time I went and still sent me away, the next day I had to call an ambulance to take me there and they sent me away a second time with some pain killers.  I spent another night in absolute agony and finally called a mobile doctor the next morning who came to the apartment straight away and it took her two minutes to tell me I should be in hospital.  When I told her that I had been there twice and showed her the paperwork she was so angry.  She called an ambulance and wrote a letter to the hospital (by the way an ambulance cost around CHF 800 each time).  She told the paramedics that they were not to let me leave the hospital until I was admitted and if the doctors gave me any trouble she would come there herself - yes really!!  I ended up having to have an emergency operation in the early hours of the morning and spent the following month in hospital.


The aftercare at Beau Sejour was fantastic but the initial response at HUG was a disgrace!!  It says something when the doctor makes such negative comments about a major hospital.  So you definately pay your money and not always get good service in return here in Geneva. 


Kevin K, Oct 20, 2015 @ 11:15
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
14 Replies | 4377 Views      |  Send to friend
 
 
 
Feedback Form