Two weeks ago i stopped by the city gardens to ask how i can sign up for a garden, a plot of land where one can garden
the lady, an elderly swiss woman, proceeded to bombard me with questions
the first being, where i come from ?
then she proceeded to make assumptions regarding Israel do i then not garden on certain days?
then she asked for my martial status , the kids , the works
I dont know what answer failed to please her but two weeks later, the forms she promised to send me have not arrived
i felt very unwelcomed
this happens to me a lot when people ask me if i am from france due to my accent
when they discover i am from israel
a quiet pause comes, oh, and no comment
except one time when a woman confessed she has a difficult time believing it
after all we are supposed to LOOK a certain way..
i have heard from a German friend that in Holland he is not welcome
and the swiss as well are not too friendly
anyone else has the feeling their nationality is not welcomed ?
Two weeks ago i stopped by the city gardens to ask how i can sign up for a garden, a plot of land where one can garden
the lady, an elderly swiss woman, proceeded to bombard me with questions
the first being, where i come from ?
then she proceeded to make assumptions regarding Israel do i then not garden on certain days?
then she asked for my martial status , the kids , the works
I dont know what answer failed to please her but two weeks later, the forms she promised to send me have not arrived
i felt very unwelcomed
this happens to me a lot when people ask me if i am from france due to my accent
when they discover i am from israel
a quiet pause comes, oh, and no comment
except one time when a woman confessed she has a difficult time believing it
after all we are supposed to LOOK a certain way..
i have heard from a German friend that in Holland he is not welcome
and the swiss as well are not too friendly
anyone else has the feeling their nationality is not welcomed ?
starMay 27, 2009 @ 08:41
I really don't want this thread to turn into a free for all where people start insulting other nationalities so Im just describing my experiences here.
I've traveled quite a bit, and telling people Im Israeli or Jewish is always a bit scary.
I have blue eyes and fair skin and hair, and I guess that just doesn't fit the mold that people expect from an Israeli or Jew.
Some people are good about hiding their surprize (Israel - wow, thats so interesting...) while others are more direct and ask me why I dont have a big nose and curly black hair, and whether or not I have killed anyone :-)
I think everyone encounters prejiduce at some point, due to relegion, race, color, ethnicity or other factors, and the best way to deal with it is to be a good 'ambasador'. Unless you are dealing with a really difficult person, once they get to know you a bit, they will forget their previous conceptions and focus on you as an individual.
As for the garden - I hope the forms just got delayed, and that you will soon be gardening with the best of them :-)
Oded
I really don't want this thread to turn into a free for all where people start insulting other nationalities so Im just describing my experiences here.
I've traveled quite a bit, and telling people Im Israeli or Jewish is always a bit scary.
I have blue eyes and fair skin and hair, and I guess that just doesn't fit the mold that people expect from an Israeli or Jew.
Some people are good about hiding their surprize (Israel - wow, thats so interesting...) while others are more direct and ask me why I dont have a big nose and curly black hair, and whether or not I have killed anyone :-)
I think everyone encounters prejiduce at some point, due to relegion, race, color, ethnicity or other factors, and the best way to deal with it is to be a good 'ambasador'. Unless you are dealing with a really difficult person, once they get to know you a bit, they will forget their previous conceptions and focus on you as an individual.
As for the garden - I hope the forms just got delayed, and that you will soon be gardening with the best of them :-)
Oded
SiteAdmin Oded, May 27, 2009 @ 12:46
I really don't want this thread to turn into a free for all where people start insulting other nationalities so Im just describing my experiences here.
I've traveled quite a bit, and telling people Im Israeli or Jewish is always a bit scary.
I have blue eyes and fair skin and hair, and I guess that just doesn't fit the mold that people expect from an Israeli orJew.
Some people are good about hiding their surprize (Israel - wow, thats so interesting...) while others are more direct and ask me why I dont have a big nose and curly black hair, and whether or not I have killed anyone:-)
I thinkeveryone encounters prejiduce at some point,due to relegion, race,color, ethnicityor other factors, and the best way to deal with it is to be a good 'ambasador'. Unless you are dealing with a really difficult person, once they get to know you a bit, they will forget their previous conceptions and focus on you as an individual.
As for the garden - I hope the forms just got delayed, and that you will soon be gardening with the best of them :-)
Oded[/quote]
hi oded
i agree that one should rise above prejudice
i just wonder how people felt about it when they encounter it
lets be honest, the swiss culture is not the most open minded one i had ever encountered
and a sense of humor is always a very good tool in handling these matters
i once had a woman in a village in ireland ask me whether i was a jewess
yes, it seems it is part of our task on earth to break sterotypes and so i have to explain to people why i dont wear a wig , or 10 children or why i dont dress like an orthoox jew
i just never thought gardening had anything to do with culture
what i found facinating is how many germans have a difficult time in switzerland having encountered prejudice there too , you would think that people who speak the same language and seem to have a similar cutlure would find themselves right at home but sometimes it is even more difficult for those who look like the swiss to fit in as they are then under suspicion as trying to be like the swiss while not being swiss
i dont want to make a general statement regarding any culture but it seems that it is difficult to approach people who have not been exposed as much to other cultures as you would find in the US , this is not New york ,
but i guess the best attitude would be to see it as a challenge and to rise above narrow minded opinions and assumptions
i am thinking of just getting some window boxes , earth and gardening on my roof at this point ,
but like gracho marx once said
"i dont want to belong to a club that would have me", something in me wishes to get a garden just to be able to post the israeli flag and show the swiss that "yes, we can" to quote beloved obama
I really don't want this thread to turn into a free for all where people start insulting other nationalities so Im just describing my experiences here.
I've traveled quite a bit, and telling people Im Israeli or Jewish is always a bit scary.
I have blue eyes and fair skin and hair, and I guess that just doesn't fit the mold that people expect from an Israeli orJew.
Some people are good about hiding their surprize (Israel - wow, thats so interesting...) while others are more direct and ask me why I dont have a big nose and curly black hair, and whether or not I have killed anyone:-)
I thinkeveryone encounters prejiduce at some point,due to relegion, race,color, ethnicityor other factors, and the best way to deal with it is to be a good 'ambasador'. Unless you are dealing with a really difficult person, once they get to know you a bit, they will forget their previous conceptions and focus on you as an individual.
As for the garden - I hope the forms just got delayed, and that you will soon be gardening with the best of them :-)
Oded[/quote]
hi oded
i agree that one should rise above prejudice
i just wonder how people felt about it when they encounter it
lets be honest, the swiss culture is not the most open minded one i had ever encountered
and a sense of humor is always a very good tool in handling these matters
i once had a woman in a village in ireland ask me whether i was a jewess
yes, it seems it is part of our task on earth to break sterotypes and so i have to explain to people why i dont wear a wig , or 10 children or why i dont dress like an orthoox jew
i just never thought gardening had anything to do with culture
what i found facinating is how many germans have a difficult time in switzerland having encountered prejudice there too , you would think that people who speak the same language and seem to have a similar cutlure would find themselves right at home but sometimes it is even more difficult for those who look like the swiss to fit in as they are then under suspicion as trying to be like the swiss while not being swiss
i dont want to make a general statement regarding any culture but it seems that it is difficult to approach people who have not been exposed as much to other cultures as you would find in the US , this is not New york ,
but i guess the best attitude would be to see it as a challenge and to rise above narrow minded opinions and assumptions
i am thinking of just getting some window boxes , earth and gardening on my roof at this point ,
but like gracho marx once said
"i dont want to belong to a club that would have me", something in me wishes to get a garden just to be able to post the israeli flag and show the swiss that "yes, we can" to quote beloved obama
star, May 27, 2009 @ 14:29
I respect freedom of speech but I also believe it stops where code of respect starts [/color][/font]
I respect freedom of speech but I also believe it stops where code of respect starts [/color][/font]
Gentlman4evr, May 27, 2009 @ 15:17
A slightly more difficult topic than dirty cars, broken locks and chatting requests.
Probably I am not the best to answer this question in a perfect way, but it may give some hints. I was born and grew up in this country but with a balkan origin. So I can understand your feelings.
I think not that Swiss per se is a conutry where foreigners are not welcome. But in this context several points are to mention.
- big parts of the identity, especially in the German speaking part is given through language. If someone has to speak the written so called "high" german, so ppl tend to feel uncomfortable. Wheter you are from China, Egypt or Greece. Mentioning Germans, you need to think about the fact, that the spoken Swiss German differs a lot from normal German. Id est, place a guy from Fribourg to Hamburg, he will not be understood.
- in the same way, most of the integration process is linked to language as well. Means, that if you are not recognized as foreign because of the way you speak, you will never have big problems.
- I am Swiss german and certainly do not have an expert French, but I do not feel less welcome because of that and I think there is more tolerance than you can see at the moment.
- I mentioned that I grew up here. So I think it is important to say that I NEVER ever felt a second class citizen, neither in school, studies or work.
- Another important point is maybe this. When I was roughly 12, 13 or so, I did not know where I have to pace myself in this country. I had the insight one day that I am neither nor, but but rather a Swiss with my own Balkan origin. And this was the day, I started to be proud of what I am (in the sense of what blood is running don my veins) and I think with a certain pride you present yourself in a different way to the ppl that surround you.
I don't want to say, you're not proud of being Jewish, but rather that you may expect problems in advance and sending out vibes which can be felt by others. See what I mean. IMHO a lot in this context is coming from us.
- You are right if you say that ppl here can be narrow minded, however i dont think it has anything to do with neglect of foreign cultures. It is simply a different appreciation of thing. Swiss usually know about it, but prefer their own way.
- This country would not exist in this form if ppl were not tolerant enough to accept other opinions and beliefs. But I do admit that there are tendencies to reject all foriegn.
- In your specific case, ppl just don't know enough about your culture. And this is probably the same in many other countries in Europe.
Well, don't know if this helps or explains anything.
CU round
Andrej
PS I do agree that this is a highly polemic discusison. I don't know if it is wise to keep it open....
A slightly more difficult topic than dirty cars, broken locks and chatting requests.
Probably I am not the best to answer this question in a perfect way, but it may give some hints. I was born and grew up in this country but with a balkan origin. So I can understand your feelings.
I think not that Swiss per se is a conutry where foreigners are not welcome. But in this context several points are to mention.
- big parts of the identity, especially in the German speaking part is given through language. If someone has to speak the written so called "high" german, so ppl tend to feel uncomfortable. Wheter you are from China, Egypt or Greece. Mentioning Germans, you need to think about the fact, that the spoken Swiss German differs a lot from normal German. Id est, place a guy from Fribourg to Hamburg, he will not be understood.
- in the same way, most of the integration process is linked to language as well. Means, that if you are not recognized as foreign because of the way you speak, you will never have big problems.
- I am Swiss german and certainly do not have an expert French, but I do not feel less welcome because of that and I think there is more tolerance than you can see at the moment.
- I mentioned that I grew up here. So I think it is important to say that I NEVER ever felt a second class citizen, neither in school, studies or work.
- Another important point is maybe this. When I was roughly 12, 13 or so, I did not know where I have to pace myself in this country. I had the insight one day that I am neither nor, but but rather a Swiss with my own Balkan origin. And this was the day, I started to be proud of what I am (in the sense of what blood is running don my veins) and I think with a certain pride you present yourself in a different way to the ppl that surround you.
I don't want to say, you're not proud of being Jewish, but rather that you may expect problems in advance and sending out vibes which can be felt by others. See what I mean. IMHO a lot in this context is coming from us.
- You are right if you say that ppl here can be narrow minded, however i dont think it has anything to do with neglect of foreign cultures. It is simply a different appreciation of thing. Swiss usually know about it, but prefer their own way.
- This country would not exist in this form if ppl were not tolerant enough to accept other opinions and beliefs. But I do admit that there are tendencies to reject all foriegn.
- In your specific case, ppl just don't know enough about your culture. And this is probably the same in many other countries in Europe.
Well, don't know if this helps or explains anything.
CU round
Andrej
PS I do agree that this is a highly polemic discusison. I don't know if it is wise to keep it open....
and70, May 27, 2009 @ 16:32
This post has the potential to turn into a diatribe against Swiss people / Israelis / americans... and it also has the potential to be a discussion about life as a foreigner, with personal stories about good / bad experiences, and tips / ideas about how to improve our experiences in a foriegn country.
If it starts moving in the wrong direction, I'll delete it tout suite.
Thanks
Oded
This post has the potential to turn into a diatribe against Swiss people / Israelis / americans... and it also has the potential to be a discussion about life as a foreigner, with personal stories about good / bad experiences, and tips / ideas about how to improve our experiences in a foriegn country.
If it starts moving in the wrong direction, I'll delete it tout suite.
Thanks
Oded
SiteAdmin Oded, May 27, 2009 @ 16:50
This post has the potential to turn into a diatribe against Swiss people / Israelis / americans... and it also has the potential to be a discussion about life as a foreigner, with personal stories about good / bad experiences, and tips / ideas about how to improve our experiences in a foriegn country.
If it starts moving in the wrong direction, I'll delete it tout suite.
Thanks
Oded[/quote]
hi all !
well oded i think the glocals are proving themselves to be the intelligent and thoughtful people you meet on the events, dont worry, i think you can trust that people do give a lot of thought to the sensitive issue of national identity
Ok
first of all, did i phrase this issue in a hateful way towards swiss people ?
i dont think so, i was trying to write what my feeling was being asked so many questions regarding my national identity as i only wanted to find out how to rent a garden, i did not expect such an investigation
having said that , lets put things in context, there is a tendency of people of certain age to be suspicious, to try to place people in a box , in a small little frame they can handle
that is perhaps international , i dont know
however having said that, there is no one who appreciates the beauty of the landscapes of switzerland more than i, just join my hikes and see the multi cultural
last hike we had 13 national represented and we all hit it off like a house on fire
as for swiss and integration, an interesting topic brought up by the nice gentleman with balkan roots, i can imagine it not so easy , but i can imagine that you have a great attitude and it probobly shows
do i walk around with a chip on my shoulder saying, i am a jew, i am an israeli, knock off my chip and see what happens ?
i dont think so
i grew up in the USA and never really felt like a typical whatever, i am my own person
but when people ask me where i am from, well, that is clearly Israel where i was born and bred and was socialized as a young adult
so what do i do when people try to figure out what i am like according to my identity?
basically feel very uncomfortable,
do i joke about it?
you bet i do,
do i go around thinking everyone is out there to get me? not really,
but i do feel very uncomfortable hearing such a sentence as i heard from someone , yes, shoot me swiss,
"you dont seem israeli, israeli women are usually aggressive"
well one should not sterotype anyone, not swiss, not german , not israeli
we are who we are
and what does that have to do with getting a garden ?
you tell me !
and yes, oded, i too hope the very reliable swiss post service sort of lost the forms for that garden place , rather than think that i am not desirable in the garden
could be also that i was rejected for admitting to having boys that yes, do like to play soccer, and for being a single mom, and for admitting i like to listen to music as i garden
all perhaps possible undesirable
so what does one do when facing very conservative inflexible old world types?
try to skip and move on i suppose but i cant help thinking, perhaps next time i will listen to advice given me, do not answer questions, do not provide information, keep silent.
I dont see anything disrespectful to swiss people here, i am just sharing my fraustration and perhaps fear of being rejected for being who i am , a foreigner
do i give out vibes? i dont think i do, i wear my ethnic jewlery but consider myself sort of international, i dont think i give out "kick me i am a minority in the world" vibes but what i do give out perhaps is ,i cant relate to being placed in a category, i am who i am ,
is that so wrong?
This post has the potential to turn into a diatribe against Swiss people / Israelis / americans... and it also has the potential to be a discussion about life as a foreigner, with personal stories about good / bad experiences, and tips / ideas about how to improve our experiences in a foriegn country.
If it starts moving in the wrong direction, I'll delete it tout suite.
Thanks
Oded[/quote]
hi all !
well oded i think the glocals are proving themselves to be the intelligent and thoughtful people you meet on the events, dont worry, i think you can trust that people do give a lot of thought to the sensitive issue of national identity
Ok
first of all, did i phrase this issue in a hateful way towards swiss people ?
i dont think so, i was trying to write what my feeling was being asked so many questions regarding my national identity as i only wanted to find out how to rent a garden, i did not expect such an investigation
having said that , lets put things in context, there is a tendency of people of certain age to be suspicious, to try to place people in a box , in a small little frame they can handle
that is perhaps international , i dont know
however having said that, there is no one who appreciates the beauty of the landscapes of switzerland more than i, just join my hikes and see the multi cultural
last hike we had 13 national represented and we all hit it off like a house on fire
as for swiss and integration, an interesting topic brought up by the nice gentleman with balkan roots, i can imagine it not so easy , but i can imagine that you have a great attitude and it probobly shows
do i walk around with a chip on my shoulder saying, i am a jew, i am an israeli, knock off my chip and see what happens ?
i dont think so
i grew up in the USA and never really felt like a typical whatever, i am my own person
but when people ask me where i am from, well, that is clearly Israel where i was born and bred and was socialized as a young adult
so what do i do when people try to figure out what i am like according to my identity?
basically feel very uncomfortable,
do i joke about it?
you bet i do,
do i go around thinking everyone is out there to get me? not really,
but i do feel very uncomfortable hearing such a sentence as i heard from someone , yes, shoot me swiss,
"you dont seem israeli, israeli women are usually aggressive"
well one should not sterotype anyone, not swiss, not german , not israeli
we are who we are
and what does that have to do with getting a garden ?
you tell me !
and yes, oded, i too hope the very reliable swiss post service sort of lost the forms for that garden place , rather than think that i am not desirable in the garden
could be also that i was rejected for admitting to having boys that yes, do like to play soccer, and for being a single mom, and for admitting i like to listen to music as i garden
all perhaps possible undesirable
so what does one do when facing very conservative inflexible old world types?
try to skip and move on i suppose but i cant help thinking, perhaps next time i will listen to advice given me, do not answer questions, do not provide information, keep silent.
I dont see anything disrespectful to swiss people here, i am just sharing my fraustration and perhaps fear of being rejected for being who i am , a foreigner
do i give out vibes? i dont think i do, i wear my ethnic jewlery but consider myself sort of international, i dont think i give out "kick me i am a minority in the world" vibes but what i do give out perhaps is ,i cant relate to being placed in a category, i am who i am ,
is that so wrong?
star, May 27, 2009 @ 17:27
personally, I find it very important that also this kind of topics can be treated in this forum. As long as posts do not go beyond the limits of decency and respect, these open discussions are helpful to know each other and, most important, to extend our limits of tolerance.
We're all probably convinced, that dialog and communication are the first way to solve conflicts if this is a shared objective. We shouldn't then be scared of letting people talk.
Nevertheless, it is necessary to monitor the forum in order to cut off people who intentionally misuse it and abuse it.
Cheers, Claudio
personally, I find it very important that also this kind of topics can be treated in this forum. As long as posts do not go beyond the limits of decency and respect, these open discussions are helpful to know each other and, most important, to extend our limits of tolerance.
We're all probably convinced, that dialog and communication are the first way to solve conflicts if this is a shared objective. We shouldn't then be scared of letting people talk.
Nevertheless, it is necessary to monitor the forum in order to cut off people who intentionally misuse it and abuse it.
Cheers, Claudio
clodi, May 27, 2009 @ 18:04
personally, I find it very important that also this kind of topics can be treated inthis forum. As long as posts do not go beyond the limits of decency and respect, these open discussions are helpful to know each other and, most important, to extend our limits of tolerance.
We're all probably convinced, that dialog and communicationare the first way to solve conflicts if this is a shared objective. We shouldn't then be scared of letting people talk.
Nevertheless,it is necessary to monitor theforum in order to cut off people who intentionally misuse it and abuse it.
Cheers, Claudio[/quote]
Thanks Claudio for the intelligent well phrased statment
Today interestingly enough the New York Times ran an article about an outspoken swiss rapper called stress
who has spoken against the right wing in swiss politics
If you get a chance read yesterday's N.Y TImes
it seems the well known rapper called stress comes originally from Estonia and knows
how immigrants feel in switzerland and therefore spoke out against the right wing campaign
against immigration picturing the swiss as the white sheep threatened by the black sheep
Blocher, a right wing leader of the SVP is actually an immigrant from Germany who depicts
switzerland as a land of ideal cows, women at home, and white folks
the right wing in switzerland got the highest vote anywhere in europe actually
according to this eye opening article
Yes, switzerland is a beautiful country, the hiking is great
but yes one should go about life here with eyes wide open
One does not have to accept racist comments or attitudes or feel judged
switzerland's new generation who travels and is open minded gives me lots of hope
but at the same time one needs to be aware of the old world view of immigrants as a threat
be aware that this attitude exists too
that is my two cents worth
Have a great weekend and enjoy the sun :)
personally, I find it very important that also this kind of topics can be treated inthis forum. As long as posts do not go beyond the limits of decency and respect, these open discussions are helpful to know each other and, most important, to extend our limits of tolerance.
We're all probably convinced, that dialog and communicationare the first way to solve conflicts if this is a shared objective. We shouldn't then be scared of letting people talk.
Nevertheless,it is necessary to monitor theforum in order to cut off people who intentionally misuse it and abuse it.
Cheers, Claudio[/quote]
Thanks Claudio for the intelligent well phrased statment
Today interestingly enough the New York Times ran an article about an outspoken swiss rapper called stress
who has spoken against the right wing in swiss politics
If you get a chance read yesterday's N.Y TImes
it seems the well known rapper called stress comes originally from Estonia and knows
how immigrants feel in switzerland and therefore spoke out against the right wing campaign
against immigration picturing the swiss as the white sheep threatened by the black sheep
Blocher, a right wing leader of the SVP is actually an immigrant from Germany who depicts
switzerland as a land of ideal cows, women at home, and white folks
the right wing in switzerland got the highest vote anywhere in europe actually
according to this eye opening article
Yes, switzerland is a beautiful country, the hiking is great
but yes one should go about life here with eyes wide open
One does not have to accept racist comments or attitudes or feel judged
switzerland's new generation who travels and is open minded gives me lots of hope
but at the same time one needs to be aware of the old world view of immigrants as a threat
be aware that this attitude exists too
that is my two cents worth
Have a great weekend and enjoy the sun :)
star, May 28, 2009 @ 16:20
oops clarification ::hehe:
it was the 27th of May New York Times article about swiss rapper Stress and the right wing in switzerland
not todays
oops clarification ::hehe:
it was the 27th of May New York Times article about swiss rapper Stress and the right wing in switzerland
not todays
star, May 28, 2009 @ 16:26
- freedom of speech - the right wingers in swiss are getting away with statements that are at best inflamatory...however...does a civilisied society allow itself to be tested by permitting disparate views, no matter how much of an anethema they are to the majority?
- Switzerland...highest percentage of immigrants of any European country, apparently...so even with the likes of some of the "anti-mob"....jonny foreigner (i.e. the likes of me) are here to stay
- freedom of speech - the right wingers in swiss are getting away with statements that are at best inflamatory...however...does a civilisied society allow itself to be tested by permitting disparate views, no matter how much of an anethema they are to the majority?
- Switzerland...highest percentage of immigrants of any European country, apparently...so even with the likes of some of the "anti-mob"....jonny foreigner (i.e. the likes of me) are here to stay
nickpenn, May 28, 2009 @ 17:59
- freedom of speech - the right wingers in swiss are getting away with statements that are at best inflamatory...however...does a civilisied society allow itself to be tested by permitting disparate views, no matter how much of an anethema they are to the majority?
- Switzerland...highest percentage of immigrants of any European country, apparently...so even with the likes of some of the "anti-mob"....jonny foreigner (i.e. the likes of me) are here to stay[/quote]
highest precent of immigrants in europe? i didnt know that
but also highest percent of people voting right wing...
i guess it depends where you come from, i dare say there are some immigrant groups that would probobly be the focus of right wing propaganda
hate to say it, but europe has been there before, right wing, words against immigrants, the folks party, the we the natives versus the foreigners
on the other hand, where in the world is there a tolerant immigration policy?
Switzerland may not be doing that bad and for the likes of us , as long as we look and act european or are euopean i suppose you would not be doing badly living here
trouble is what happens when you blow your cover? is it really that easy to pretend to blend in with the goats and cows ?
i am not saying things are that bad , i am just getting a bit uncomfortable at times
with some of the declarations of the right wing , and the meeting with the president of iran in the name of world peace sort of made me feel a bit uncomfortable in my seat here
but hey, who in the world has a monopol on justice and fair play?
:w00t:
- freedom of speech - the right wingers in swiss are getting away with statements that are at best inflamatory...however...does a civilisied society allow itself to be tested by permitting disparate views, no matter how much of an anethema they are to the majority?
- Switzerland...highest percentage of immigrants of any European country, apparently...so even with the likes of some of the "anti-mob"....jonny foreigner (i.e. the likes of me) are here to stay[/quote]
highest precent of immigrants in europe? i didnt know that
but also highest percent of people voting right wing...
i guess it depends where you come from, i dare say there are some immigrant groups that would probobly be the focus of right wing propaganda
hate to say it, but europe has been there before, right wing, words against immigrants, the folks party, the we the natives versus the foreigners
on the other hand, where in the world is there a tolerant immigration policy?
Switzerland may not be doing that bad and for the likes of us , as long as we look and act european or are euopean i suppose you would not be doing badly living here
trouble is what happens when you blow your cover? is it really that easy to pretend to blend in with the goats and cows ?
i am not saying things are that bad , i am just getting a bit uncomfortable at times
with some of the declarations of the right wing , and the meeting with the president of iran in the name of world peace sort of made me feel a bit uncomfortable in my seat here
but hey, who in the world has a monopol on justice and fair play?
:w00t:
star, May 28, 2009 @ 20:22
- freedom of speech - the right wingers in swiss are getting away with statements that are at best inflamatory...however...does a civilisied society allow itself to be tested by permitting disparate views, no matter how much of an anethema they are to the majority?
- Switzerland...highest percentage of immigrants of any European country, apparently...so even with the likes of some of the "anti-mob"....jonny foreigner (i.e. the likes of me) are here to stay[/quote]
highest precent of immigrants in europe? i didnt know that
but also highest percent of people voting right wing...
i guess it depends where you come from, i dare say there are some immigrant groups that would probobly be the focus of right wing propaganda
hate to say it, but europe has been there before, right wing, words against immigrants, the folks party, the we the natives versus the foreigners
on the other hand, where in the world is there a tolerant immigration policy?
Switzerland may not be doing that bad and for the likes of us , as long as we look and act european or are euopean i suppose you would not be doing badly living here
trouble is what happens when you blow your cover? is it really that easy to pretend to blend in with the goats and cows ?
i am not saying things are that bad , i am just getting a bit uncomfortable at times
with some of the declarations of the right wing , and the meeting with the president of iran in the name of world peace sort of made me feel a bit uncomfortable in my seat here
but hey, who in the world has a monopol on justice and fair play?
:w00t:
apparently highest % of immigrants, but yes, sadly the right wing movement seems to be getting traction (and not just in Switzerland). My biggest shock with Switzerland was the "chattering classes" racism, you know the sort of comment at dinner parties about colour blah blah...am sure things will change....more concerend with Berlosconi turning round refugees and sending them back to Libya...but that's another story
- freedom of speech - the right wingers in swiss are getting away with statements that are at best inflamatory...however...does a civilisied society allow itself to be tested by permitting disparate views, no matter how much of an anethema they are to the majority?
- Switzerland...highest percentage of immigrants of any European country, apparently...so even with the likes of some of the "anti-mob"....jonny foreigner (i.e. the likes of me) are here to stay[/quote]
highest precent of immigrants in europe? i didnt know that
but also highest percent of people voting right wing...
i guess it depends where you come from, i dare say there are some immigrant groups that would probobly be the focus of right wing propaganda
hate to say it, but europe has been there before, right wing, words against immigrants, the folks party, the we the natives versus the foreigners
on the other hand, where in the world is there a tolerant immigration policy?
Switzerland may not be doing that bad and for the likes of us , as long as we look and act european or are euopean i suppose you would not be doing badly living here
trouble is what happens when you blow your cover? is it really that easy to pretend to blend in with the goats and cows ?
i am not saying things are that bad , i am just getting a bit uncomfortable at times
with some of the declarations of the right wing , and the meeting with the president of iran in the name of world peace sort of made me feel a bit uncomfortable in my seat here
but hey, who in the world has a monopol on justice and fair play?
:w00t:
apparently highest % of immigrants, but yes, sadly the right wing movement seems to be getting traction (and not just in Switzerland). My biggest shock with Switzerland was the "chattering classes" racism, you know the sort of comment at dinner parties about colour blah blah...am sure things will change....more concerend with Berlosconi turning round refugees and sending them back to Libya...but that's another story
nickpenn, May 28, 2009 @ 21:07
on the one hand we want to be liberal and feel bad for the people who suffer in their countries and will do anything to get out, including risk their lives drowning at sea
on the other hand there are i believe immigrants who abuse the swiss social system and so when i pay taxes i wonder is the money going towards helping those immigrants or sustaining a lot of them so that they dont have to work ?
I appreciate multiculural switzerland a lot, i spent some years in NYC but sometimes i wish there would not be those closed groups, i sent my son with a soccer ball to welcome some sri lankan neighbors but they seem really scared of us for some reason ,
on the other hand we had a son of persian immigrants at my son's last birthday and i thought that was pretty cool and gave me a lot of hope people open up more so we can learn about cultures we sometimes only know about from the world news.
on the one hand we want to be liberal and feel bad for the people who suffer in their countries and will do anything to get out, including risk their lives drowning at sea
on the other hand there are i believe immigrants who abuse the swiss social system and so when i pay taxes i wonder is the money going towards helping those immigrants or sustaining a lot of them so that they dont have to work ?
I appreciate multiculural switzerland a lot, i spent some years in NYC but sometimes i wish there would not be those closed groups, i sent my son with a soccer ball to welcome some sri lankan neighbors but they seem really scared of us for some reason ,
on the other hand we had a son of persian immigrants at my son's last birthday and i thought that was pretty cool and gave me a lot of hope people open up more so we can learn about cultures we sometimes only know about from the world news.
star, May 29, 2009 @ 15:37
Just felt like adding a few words from a native Swiss guy's perspective here; from my personal experience, I think that the question about where you come from is probably one of the first - if not THE first one - that more or less everyone will be facing in Switzerland (even I do face it from time to time as a Swiss person ;) in a way or another ..."et vous venez d'où? Mais vous êtes d'où, en fait?
Having said that, I think there is one element to keep in mind about Switzerland: over here, people not only consider themselves from the place where they are born. There is yet another concept, hardly known elsewhere, which is where one's family originates from (litterally: lieu d'origine)...which can sometimes be very different from where people are born! And this "origin" is something inherited from the parents that some people are very proud of. For example, someone could feel very proud that their "lieu d'origine" is a village in the Canton of Vaud, or Geneva, even if (or especially if) their family name is obviously Swiss-German and they live in Geneva and speak french. You can hear people say "yes, my name is Such-and-such, but my family originates from "There-and-there"...meaning "you know, I really have nothing in common with those from the other part of the country, I'm really from HERE!" In the past, this notion of the "lieu d'origine" had its importance, as it was the town where someone could go to if they became so poor that they had to claim for community support; and the town could not reject them. Even nowadays, it is still possible to associate certain family names to a region (oh, the ABC's, they are from Neuchâtel, aren't they? Yes, and the guy married an XYZ girl. ah? the XYZ's from Echallens? No, XYZ from Fribourg). :P
All that to say that identity here is really something quite subtle, which I think is built on language, religion, and area of origin. Not sure, as to whether you followed me until there, but anyway, I wish you to be successful on your search for a garden (be prepared to be put on a waiting list though...these are everywhere in high demand).
Cheers
Olivier
Just felt like adding a few words from a native Swiss guy's perspective here; from my personal experience, I think that the question about where you come from is probably one of the first - if not THE first one - that more or less everyone will be facing in Switzerland (even I do face it from time to time as a Swiss person ;) in a way or another ..."et vous venez d'où? Mais vous êtes d'où, en fait?
Having said that, I think there is one element to keep in mind about Switzerland: over here, people not only consider themselves from the place where they are born. There is yet another concept, hardly known elsewhere, which is where one's family originates from (litterally: lieu d'origine)...which can sometimes be very different from where people are born! And this "origin" is something inherited from the parents that some people are very proud of. For example, someone could feel very proud that their "lieu d'origine" is a village in the Canton of Vaud, or Geneva, even if (or especially if) their family name is obviously Swiss-German and they live in Geneva and speak french. You can hear people say "yes, my name is Such-and-such, but my family originates from "There-and-there"...meaning "you know, I really have nothing in common with those from the other part of the country, I'm really from HERE!" In the past, this notion of the "lieu d'origine" had its importance, as it was the town where someone could go to if they became so poor that they had to claim for community support; and the town could not reject them. Even nowadays, it is still possible to associate certain family names to a region (oh, the ABC's, they are from Neuchâtel, aren't they? Yes, and the guy married an XYZ girl. ah? the XYZ's from Echallens? No, XYZ from Fribourg). :P
All that to say that identity here is really something quite subtle, which I think is built on language, religion, and area of origin. Not sure, as to whether you followed me until there, but anyway, I wish you to be successful on your search for a garden (be prepared to be put on a waiting list though...these are everywhere in high demand).
Cheers
Olivier
lousonna, Jun 5, 2009 @ 01:22
since then i have reconsidered whether i do have the time to garden as i do so many things and hiking is so much more rewarding..
since then i have reconsidered whether i do have the time to garden as i do so many things and hiking is so much more rewarding..
star, Jun 5, 2009 @ 09:41
I could very well be accused of ignorance for my response but that is ok.
I could very well be accused of ignorance for my response but that is ok.
worldtodd, Jun 5, 2009 @ 10:22
switzerland is so diverse ,
i would never consider living in a small village but then again nor would i anywhere else in the world where people are not exposed to international people as much
having said that , i find it a bit too much to actually expect people to answer so many personal questions it is a form of control and information intake which is not favorable most of the time, it is not done for friendly purposes but rather to gather information on the person so that an opinon can be formulated and it does seem to formulate quite soon still i have always tried not to generalize and not to place everyone in the same box
as they do to me sometimes , we are not representatives of this or that country and i guess i would have liked to be seen as myself rather than a sterotype however that does exist whether we are willing to admit or not..and probobly not just here--
switzerland is so diverse ,
i would never consider living in a small village but then again nor would i anywhere else in the world where people are not exposed to international people as much
having said that , i find it a bit too much to actually expect people to answer so many personal questions it is a form of control and information intake which is not favorable most of the time, it is not done for friendly purposes but rather to gather information on the person so that an opinon can be formulated and it does seem to formulate quite soon still i have always tried not to generalize and not to place everyone in the same box
as they do to me sometimes , we are not representatives of this or that country and i guess i would have liked to be seen as myself rather than a sterotype however that does exist whether we are willing to admit or not..and probobly not just here--
star, Jun 5, 2009 @ 10:59
nickpenn, Jun 5, 2009 @ 11:38