How is this a 'Glocals questionnaire'? Bonus points for the troll asking other people not to troll him...

Le 16 juin, la Grande Chambre de la Cour européenne des Droits de l’homme a publié deux jugements dans deux dossiers importants dans les suites du conflit entre la République du Nagorno-Karabakh, l’Armenie et l’Azerbaïjan : les affaires Chiragov et autres c. l’Arménie et Sargsyan c. Azerbaïdjan.

Richement détaillés, ces deux jugements soulèvent des points très importants de droit international.

L’un d’entre eux concerne d’une manière surprenante, Israël, la Cisjordanie et Gaza. La Cour a en effet (implicitement) décidé qu'Israël n’est pas la force occupante de Gaza, et que la Cisjordanie n’étant pas un Etat, il n’y a pas d’occupation.

Dans les deux affaires, il s’agit de personnes déplacées qui n’ont pu avoir accès à leur propriété. Le cas Sargsyan concerne le refus du demandeur du droit au retour dans son village de Gulistan, situé sur le territoire de l’Azerbaïjan, tout près de la zone de contact entre l’Azerbaïjan et les forces séparatistes de la République de Nagorno-Karabakh.

Pour le gouvernement Azerbaijani, le village n’est pas sous le contrôle de l’Azerbaïjan. De plus, il est miné, et inaccessible à la population civile.

En fait, lorsqu’il a ratifié la Convention européenne, l’Azerbaïjan a fait la déclaration suivante (paragraphe 93 du jugement):

La République d’Azerbaïjan déclare ne pas être en mesure de garantie l’application des règlementations de la Convention dans les territoires occupés par la République d’Arménie, tant que ces territoires ne seront pas libérés de cette occupation.

L’article 42 du Règlement concernant les lois et coutumes de la guerre sur terre (La Haye, 18 octobre 1907, ci-après « le Règlement de La Haye de 1907 ») définit l’occupation belligérante comme suit :

« Un territoire est considéré comme occupé lorsqu’il se trouve placé de fait sous l’autorité de l’armée ennemie. L’occupation ne s’étend qu’aux territoires où cette autorité est établie et en mesure de s’exercer. »

Il y a donc occupation au sens du Règlement de La Haye de 1907 lorsqu’un État exerce de fait son autorité sur le territoire ou sur une partie du territoire d’un État ennemi.

La Cisjordanie, autrement dit la Judée Samarie n’étant pas un Etat, toute référence à une occupation, et à la violation du droit international n’est que propagande.

On considère qu’un territoire ou une partie d’un territoire est sous occupation militaire lorsque l’on parvient à démontrer que des troupes étrangères y sont présentes et que ces troupes sont en mesure d’exercer un contrôle effectif, sans le consentement de l’autorité souveraine. La plupart des experts estiment que la présence physique de troupes étrangères est une condition sine qua non de l’occupation, autrement dit que l’occupation n’est pas concevable en l’absence de présence militaire sur le terrain ; ainsi, l’exercice d’un contrôle naval ou aérien par des forces étrangères opérant un blocus ne suffit pas.

Gaza n’est donc pas non plus une zone occupée par Israël.

Dans ses appréciations, la Cour complète les raisons pour lesquelles la Cisjordanie n’est pas un territoire occupé :

144. La Cour note que d’après le droit international (en particulier l’article 42 du règlement de La Haye de 1907), un territoire est considéré comme occupé lorsqu’il se trouve placé de fait sous l’autorité d’une armée ennemie, et l’on considère communément que « l’autorité de fait » se traduit par l’exercice d’un contrôle effectif et requiert des éléments tels que la présence de troupes étrangères en mesure d’exercer pareil contrôle sans le consentement de l’autorité souveraine.

« L’autorité de fait » est le gouvernement palestinien placé sous l’autorité du président Mahmoud Abbas qui « assure le contrôle effectif » de la région. La présence de l’armée israélienne est assurée « avec le consentement de l’autorité » palestinienne. Enfin, il n’existe pas « d’autorité souveraine ».

Il semble évident que les juges de Strasbourg n’avaient pas à l’esprit que l’abondance de détails et de références au droit international de leur conclusions ont des implications sur le statut légal de la Cisjordanie et Gaza, en dehors de toute la dialectique de propagande mentionnant les mots colons, colonies, occupation, dont les fondements juridiques volent ici en éclat.

© Jean-Patrick Grumberg pour Dreuz.info.

The phrasing of the question makes your answer pretty obvious!

You may want to create a survey monkey poll, place the link for it in this forum and then you will get exactly what you want, as people will have a chance to only click yes or no. Just go to:

https://www.surveymonkey.com/

Manics, why do you hate Jewish people so much? Its blatently obvious from all your posts. Please explain where you are coming from so we can understand your frustration and anger a bit more..

While the European Court's judgment is interesting coming from a region that has generally supported the illegal occupation of Palestine by Israel, both the political bodies of the United Nations and the judicial bodies have said the Palestine is illegally occupied by Israel. Moreover, Israel's own Supreme Court has recognized the occupation And finally, the UN bodies have also repeatedly determined that Gaza is still occupied.

I don't think raising legal issues concerning Israel's illegal occupation of Palestine is showing 'hatred'. It is instead promoting the rule of international law. I work with quite a few prominent Israels who view Israel's occupation of Palestine as illegal. These Israelis are also promoting the rule of international law.

Hi Sandro. Id say I'm a curious person. Not hateful. Show me a 'hate post' from me and I'll apologigse. There's never an excuse for being hateful or rude. That's my policy, philosophy and life plan. 

Funny how everybody talk about one damn subject like there's nothing similar in EU...

Do you agree with Turkish occupation of 1/2 of Cyprus ?

The UK's occupation of Falklands and North Ireland ?

Kurds are a minority of 10 milion plus and they should have also their own country. Instead they are hunt down from Turkish army and live like second class citizens in Turkey... 

The Russians in Crimea ? (Ooops they are out of EU and NATO so we took mesures agains them ;)

Is it normal nobody talk about that and no European institution take a look at these crimes ?

We're in the heart of EU and international organizations so if we want to be called humans we should take the word out and point the finger to these atrocities...voila my 2 cents

Christo: you raise a question that many people also raise: why is the world focusing so much on Israel, and forgetting other countries that do things 100 times worse.

Here's another example of the same point: the UN's General Assembly recently discussed the world's problems, ending up with 20 resolutions against Israel and 3 resolutions against the rest of the world...(-;

http://www.unwatch.org/un-to-adopt-20-resolutions-against-israel-3-on-rest-of-the-world/

Manics:

First, you may be a curious person, but you word your statements not in a "I want to know" way, but in a "I want to make a statement" way. 

When you say "what do you think of the occupation", it's almost like saying "what do you think about Hammas officially declaring it will only stop killing israelis when Israel doesn't exist anymore". Both questions are worded as questions, but their wording makes a strong opinion statement.

Second, as Casu quoted, one of the highest courts in the world ruled the occupation is not an occupation. Some experts disagree. It all goes to show that nothing is simple about this issue. 

Shalom. 

You are right, there is nothing easy about any of it. There is a great Master who has done some remarkable work with both Palistinians and Israelis in the area of compassion, conflict resolution and partnering in the area of what seems impossible between them, namely, the establishment of a peace. His name is Thich Naht Hanh. He is a Vietnamese Buddhist Master who has the purity, the receptivity and the kindness of heart to have established the most profound work in the area of mindfulness I have ever witnessed in my life.mif I could, I would have all of the Military trained for 2 weeks at his center near Bordeaux. If the right frame of reference and conditions don't get created, miracles and breakthroughs that are wanting to come through wont have a chance. 

Kind Regards,

Kim Greenhouse 

1201 Geneva
Switzerland

Thanks for taking the time to reply Nir.

This topic is, emotionally speaking, a minefield for all of us. For me, standing from my fallible, human perspective, this is the number one human rights issue in the world. Now that apartheid in S. Africa is a thing of the past the apartheid suffered by the Palestinians desperately needs to be remedied asap and by PEACEFUL MEANS (And that's not just my opinion, its is also Archbishop Desmond Tutu's, and I think we can all agree he knows what he is talking about when it comes to calling out apartheid). But hey, I completely get there are people like me, totally genuine and speaking the truth as they see it, but who happening to be standing on the other side of this issue. Dear Sandro, that's why I post on this topic so much. I want to know what the good, kind, genuine people who stand on the opposite side of this question think. I want to feel what they feel. That's it. Nothing more to it than that. The way I see it there are two options for people like me and Sandro. We can avoid talking to each other, or we can reach out, open up and talk to each other. The second option is risky, people can end up feeling hurt and/or being called nasty names (I promise I have never, and will never, call people names). But it is so worth the risk. If we here, in this paradise of a city, can't talk to each other as brothers and sisters and make the effort to understand each other how can we ever expect people actually living in Israel and Palestine to have the courage to embrace the way of peaceful dialogue? I must be honest, the last few months, I have been a coward. I stopped posting on glocals because I lost hope of ever finding a way to talk about this without it descending into two online camps bashing each other. But I really believe its important to start growing a culture of open and civil dialogue on this subject, ESPECIALLY between people who do not agree! My God, that's the whole point. The silence on this subject, the taboo nature of it, is absolutely toxic. So here I am again, waving my white flag (its the only colour flag I own) and asking you all: what do you think?

I'm sure many people would want to explain their reasoning behind their "short" answer though... I mean, if someone says "yes" or "no", they wouldn't be able to support why they think that way, which I think, is the point of discussing a topic.

Yes.