Manics, my school is hosting this next Friday which you might find interesting

Hi Lexillent,

first of all thank you once for posting and twice for sharing! counter-insurgency: ''military or political action taken against the activities of guerillas or revolutionaries'' (from OED). Quite a slippery little term. It has been used before as a euphemism for some fairly distasteful, aggressive and immoral acts hasn't it? this is exactly the kind of conference i find interesting because it involves thinking critically about media-speak and how language is used by establishment figures (government officials, military hawks, academics, etc)!

counter-insurgency is a good thing when one is thinking of spooky anti-government groups like the klu-klux klann but equally it is a 'bad' thing when it involves governments ruthlessly suppressing populist movements (e.g. Augusto Pinochet in Chile). so i'd be very interested to see which path the speakers in this conference are advocating and whether it involves the squashing of any innocents/lots of collateral damage for the 'greater good'. looks like i'm probably going! cheers for a great idea:o)

This is looking better and better! Might asked Marksist to go with me for some Chomsky powered back-up! looks so hawky!! (faints...)

Taken from http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pdffiles/pub846.pdf

COIN OF THE REALM: U.S. COUNTERINSURGENCY STRATEGY

The “Future Defense Dilemmas” seminar series is a new partnership between the 21st Century Defense Initiative at the Brookings Institution and the U.S. Army War College Strategic Studies Institute.  Its goal is to bring together defense experts and policy leaders from academia, the military and defense community, other governmental organizations, and nongovernmental institutions for discussions on looming defense questions and dilemmas. 

i'll be there, so say hello if you see me.  It is quite small compared to the humanitarian conference my school hosts, but there should be some good speakers. 

Good morning folk 

I have posted an event in May, a theater project of Jewish and Arab children 

which should be a light in the dark 

Unfortunately i dont really like how Amnesty international posted slogans in Parade platz in zurich last year 

"Free Palestine"

Look for peace you need TWO sides taking responsibility and unfortunately 

such conferences really talk to the naive ignorant who dont ask 

why do the palestinians continue to throw rockets when there is no clear 

goal other than destruction ?

Why are the moderate palestinian voices not demanding immediate

stop of rocket throwing on israel

why the moderate voices in the Moslem world do not condamn violence?

Many Israelis including myself would never allow violence without criticism

but why are these so called peace activits not condamning the violent 

attitude towards Israel ?

Why do they fail to negotiate ? why do they speak about free palestine and not really do anything concrete to stop the violence against Israel ?

How can any country accept rockets sent on its citizens after giving up land ?

Why dont they recognize Israel's right to exist ? 

Why do they see Israel as a threat when there are so many peace 

activists within Israel ? 

Why do they ignore Israel's many and generous offers and insist on voting in Hamas who declares consistantly a violent agenda?

What about other nations like the Ivory coast or Tibet who have not 

had their voice heard because there is no oil involved ?

What about human rights abuse within extreme moslem societies ?

Why do they not demand change NOW and stop attacking Israel but sort

out their own mess first

 ?

good morning star. as regards your quote: ''such conferences really talk to the naive ignorant''...

I'd respectfully suggest you either come to the conferences and share your opinions then and there or hold your peace. Making negative remarks about 300 people whom you've never actually met is irrational. you call us naieve but I don't see how your kind of comments can add anything constructive to the debate other than inciting more hatred and there's quite enough of that in the world already.

by the way, you are insulting a lot of very genuine and beautiful israelis who were at the conference last night too. so please, tone down the belligerent language, it's nasty and it's not helping anyone, least of all the families and the good people of Israel.

regards,

m.

Manics, I have to admit, since your first post commenting on Israeli/Palestinian relations, I've been waiting for the inevitable 'but' and subsequent lashing out against Israelis - a trend  I've unfortunately become accustomed to. Certainly both sides have committed horrific acts, but commentaries tend to only focus on the horrors of one  side or the other. 

However, you've only posted words that are at a level of moderation and calm that I hope to aspire to. Keep it up. Its a really refreshing breath of fresh air. 

There may be some hope, after all.

Hi Star,  I think you'll find the answers to most, if not all of your questions by forgetting everything you've been told up to now, then going back say, a hundred years or so, and researching how we got to where we are today in Palestine/Israel.  It's complex and convoluted, with vicitms strewn all over the place. The eternel conflict was programmed by the international community giving away something that didn't belong to them. Sure, the Jews had suffered horribly during the war, but it was a short-sighted solution to place them in Palestine at the cost of the native population. If you consider yourself a Zionist, I suggest that you consider what Zionism means in the eyes of a Palestinian.  Injustices piled one upon the other isn't an easy situation to find a solution to.  Shalom

A lovely mix of ignorance and arrogance there. 

Lexillent, thanks for the post. I might also join in. Sounds interesting.

Ariel R, instead of ignoring discussion and the actual topic by commenting about what you see as ignorance and arrogance please kindly explain how you see the situation. Make me understand your point of view.

Hmmm, in my experience, it's not the hawks that are the real problem -- it's the chickenhawks.  http://www.nhgazette.com/chickenhawks/

The chief chickenhawk running for US President in 2012 is Newt Gingrich.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/commandingheights/shared/minitext/prof_newtgingrich.html

...See at about 4:50 min. on how Gingrich is saying the US will be taken over by "secular atheists"  and "radical islamists" if Obama wins in 2012...

Star:

There are many people on both sides who want and espouse peace. They don't always make for exciting news stories.

In the time it takes to listen to a couple of youtube clips, you can find them, even by simply search Ha'aretz.  Yes, even Palestinians. 

You have the computer. Now all you need is the willingness.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/dr-izzeldin-abuelaish-do-you-still-have-hope-after-the-idf-killed-your-daughters-and-niece-in-gaza-1.304056

http://english.themarker.com/israeli-palestinian-launch-west-bank-venture-capital-fund-1.353358

Hello Ariel, I would be seriously interested to know what, in your opinion, was ignorant, and what was arrogant in my posting.  Just by the by, I don't support one position or the other, I'm against anybody who is extremist and intolerant. 

This is meant to be a civil exchange of views, not a slam. Breath.

@Ariel: hi :o) 

I suppose what makes these glocals posts so great is that we get to discuss ideas that are important to us with people we might not otherwise meet in 'real' life. I've seen your posts on a few other topics and i've always been interested in your point of view.

Could you add something more to your previous post (where you respond to Tony?) And instead of using adjectives like 'ignornant' and 'arrogant' may I respectfully suggest that you use your passion to uncover and explain those facts to us which you believe to be of the most significance? i'm sure we all want to avoid the possibility of allowing this interesting discussion to be sidetracked into an exchange of insults.

have a great day,

m.

Why disregard the basis of Star's viewpoint and belittle it? Does Tony understand what it is to be a Zionist from the perspective of an Israeli? There are many kinds of Zionists, even among Israelis, among Americans, among all Jews! This was the basis for my definitely off the cuff remark of arrogance. 

As for the ignorance - in one sentence, Tony claims this is a complicated issue, and then immediately says that this is the fault of the 'international community'. Who comprises this 'international community'? What era is he referring to? Why ignore the presence of the Jews already present in Israel (then Palestine)? Furthermore, it is very, very insulting to write off one of the most horrific genocides in the present day by saying that Jews suffered during the War. 

From the mixing up of generations and eras (are you referring to the Balfour Declaration when you say that the int'l community 'gave away' the land? And are you referring to WWII when you speak of the War? Because Jews had also suffered from WWI as well, not to mention under the tsraist regime well before the era of WWI which prompted many Americans and American Jews to aid in the moving of Jews from Eastern Europe into Palestine. So what and when exactly are you talking about? ), the entire comment came across as dismissive and ignorant. 

There are many problems with his comment and while I should have taken the time then to explain the above, I do not believe I was the one to begin this exchange of insults. 

Hello Ariel,

Thanks for your response and detailing of your earlier comment.  I wasn’t attempting to belittle a viewpoint, but to address a long series of questions that Star expressed.  No, I am not Jewish or Zionist, nor am I Arab or have I ever lived in a refugee camp. I admit total ignorance of these first-hand experiences.  But I try to be a thinking and feeling person who takes the time to inform himself in an attempt to understand the perspective of both parties in this conflict.  There have been reproachable actions on both sides (as has been stated), but when you strip away the political maneuvers and posturing, you’re left with people not unlike you and me, trying to do their best while living under various degrees of tragic circumstances.

As far as the historical context and the (ir)responsibility of the international community in the conflict, I think it should be clear that Balfour in 1917, the League of Nations in 1922, and the United Nations partition attempt in 1947 were all pivotal episodes (however well meant) in an unnatural interference which would inevitably manifest themselves in unending disputes and clashes.
The successive waves of immigration of Jews into Palestine between 1904 and 1947 brought the level of the Jewish population to around 33% by the time of the creation of Israel.  Of course, that level of influx in such a short time and competition for land could not but guarantee friction with the local population.  Here I apologize if it seemed that I was understating the horror visited on the Jews by the Holocaust. It was unquestionably one of the deepest man-made tragedies in history.  My point is simply that the solution found (the creation of a nation in a land already populated) was inhumanely dismissive of the Palestinians, and set up this infernal conundrum that we don’t seem to be able to find a way out of.

Injustice is the motor of hate, and hate pushes reason right out the window.  Firing missiles into civilian areas is an overwhelming wrong, and should never be rationalized. But the circumstances leading to such a desperate action should be analyzed and understood.  As long as dogma and angry reaction drive policies, there will be no understanding, and no diminishing of injustice.  A little empathy on both sides would go a long way.

Respectfully yours,
Tony

Hi all 

salem alekom shalom 

I would never try to explain Ireland, African countries, whatever dispute in the world and attempt to throw slogans such as

"hate pushes reason out the window"

Violence should never ever be excused but there is a difference between

trying to stop someone from shooting rockets into your homes

and initiating violent actions with no clear goal 

which is why i seriously doubt any conference with the name Palestine

would come to any good

again

1) Jewish settlement in what has been called by the Romans "Palestine"

dates back to ancient times, and i am not depending on the bible

the archeological artifacts as well as historical reports by the romans themselves point to the very fundemental fact that many choose to ignore

which is that the Jews were there for centuries

I am not going into the history which you can read by yourself, hopefully

not through youtube,

it is a long complex history where the Jews were forced into exile, came

back and again,

Antisemitism does not start with the holocaust nor does Zionism

Zionism began in vienna, interestingly enough the same country where Hitler

came from, when a jewish journalist by the name of Herzel reported on a mock trial of a French Jewish officer  called Dreifuss who was accused wrongfully of treason.

The division of the land was not artificially placing Jews there, the Jews 

see the land of Israel as their spiritual and historical homeland and have 

done so for centuries 

The Palestinians are the ones to have emigrated recently and their 

origin is from neighboring countries.

Marc Twain, a nonjew, reports on a visit to Palestine which was practically 

deserted in the late 1890s 

You can google all that 

my own great grandfather was there in 1860 , which was the first big wave

in modern times of Jews coming to what is called Palestine, 

but jews have gone to settle in Palestine during all those years 

but the majority stayed in exile in europe and arab lands where they suffered discrimination and violence and murder for centuries.

Modern zionism is just a new twist, zionism is in the Jewish religion which 

mentions the land of Israel and Jerusalem built by a Jewish king 

in almost every page of the prayer book.

Without religion the Jewish claim to the land so called Palestine by the Romans is historical 

and Balfur Declaration states that it is the "HISTORICAL homeland of the Jews"

The Jews got a lot less land than should have been their historically.

I said that the conference in Geneva probobly addresses the naive and ignorant because if the Palestinians truly wanted peace all they have to do is to negotiate and stop the one sided violence

No one is attacking Gaza , in fact the palestinians control Gaza yet 

they insist on continually using violence.

There is no excuse for violence whose aim is to destroy and kill other people 

there is violence used by armies to try to stop violence and that is something else 

but for some reason people mix the two and i dont think it is the same 

Yes, death is death but if an army uses violence in order to stop rockets 

i dont think it is the same as sending rockets or placing bombs without any goal but to terrorize , murder and destroy.

The Palestinians chose democratically a regime that states as its goals to murder and destroy any entity that is not that particular type of Islam and that includes anyone who does not believe exactly what they believe because Islam too has different streams.

There is so much to say on the subject but the problem is that without the historical perspective people see the Jews as stealing land and if they dont know about purchasing of land and how things were done they wrongfully accuse the Jews of something that they are not guilty of.

I dont think both sides are equally guilty because Israel does not claim to want to murder the palestinians or not allow them a state , there is only a very serious worry about security as the palestinians have not honored their side of the deal and did not stop violence up to now.

I dont see the point of a conference while the palestinians continue to shoot rockets.

The type of violence the Palestinians use is orchestrated by the belief 

that no one else should live in that region but Moslems of that type

a holy war

All you have to do is see how things are done in the neighboring countries

yet no one is worried when scores of Moslems are being murdered by their own people or consider how it is possible to speak to people who dont recognize anyone else^s right to live in that region including christians by the way.

Amnesty international cares very little for other people like the Tibetians or the people of the Ivory coast yet expects the Israelis to be sitting ducks while the Palestinians shoot at them.

By the way even after centuries of violence against them Jews were never violent towards other people 

even after six million jews were killed amongst them more than one million children the Jews did not seek revenge

The violence in Israel -palestine is not one of revenge from the Israeli point of view but it is an attempt to stop the violence from getting worse.

I am not a military expert but slogans dont keep your homes safe from rockets

I dont know anyone who wants to kill Arabs or harm them but one of the functions of an army is to stop other people from trying to kill you and this is what the IDF does .

Of course every military action can be questioned and peace is the best option but if you dont have a partner it seems to me very sad to do a conference when you cant get the Palestinains to stop the violence and talk.

That is why i called people in that sort of conference naive and ignorant

they dont know the history, they dont know what is going on in that area 

and they turn a blind eye to the enormous amount of violence generated by the extreme Moslems in the region blaming Israel for seeking to defend its population.

It is very difficult to fight people who shoot from heavily populated areas

and you should ask yourself what kind of people fight from places where there are children ?

Using children as human shields is commonly done and is something no one can really understand but no one seems to be questioning

Please ask questions if you attend the conference and the first question should be why the Palestinians use violence against Israel without any sort of reason or provocation.

I am sure there are moderate moslem voices but unfortunately those are

silenced and not heard and violence is not condamned by the religious or political leaders

The Israeli side is quick to condamn criticise and ask questions which is because it is a different culture, nothing to do with racism but comes from a tradition of asking questions, and wanting to live in peace .

Jews have traditionally been involved in many revolutions, the Russian, south Africa , the rights of African Americans in the south, etc

there are Israelis who defend the Palestinian rights wwww.haaretz.com

but i dont see Palestinians defending the rights of Israelis

still i have hope that somehow things will change, but only when the Jews and Arabs find a way together without intervention of the nations of the world

Golda Meir, if anyone is old enough like me to remember her, who was a prime minister of Israel said to Arab leaders

"we can forgive you for killing our children but not for making our children kill yours" 

and that is the sad reality , i just hope everyone indeed sits down and talks 

because i do believe that the arabs and jews can find solutions but only when  people stop excusing senseless violence and stop placing pressure on Israel to risk security and to give once again something for nothing but more violence

peace love and light 

I would like to see the conference in the middle east , in Gaza 

Hi Star,

I appreciate your position.  I would like to reiterate that I don’t have a position to defend, I’m not Arab or Jew; I have some very good Jewish friends but haven’t really met many Arabs.

There have been a lot of much smarter people than us working on this for a long time, without finding a solution, so I doubt we’ll do it in a Glocals blog, and I certainly don’t want to emulate the conflict and get into a tit-for-tat back and forth on every point.  

But if I may, let me just address a couple of your points:

1.  The name Palestine has been in use since at least 500 BC, way before the Romans entered the area. 

2. The Palestinian Arabs are not newcomers, but are of the same prehistoric autochthonous genetic stock as not only all the other Arabs on the coast, but also as both Ashkenazim and Sephardim Jews, the only basic difference between the two being a linguistic and religious split sometime in the distant past.  In any case, the right to the land from the “we were here first” argument is moot, since both peoples inhabited it contemporarily.

There is no doubt that there has been a Jewish presence in Palestine/Israel for thousands of years.  Through the Diaspora, that presence was very much diminished for two millennia.  It is open to debate how much right  the displaced Jews had to reclaim the land in 1948, just on the weight of historical claims, and I’m afraid that the religious arguments cannot be taken into account.

I find it ironic that Israelis argue that even after 2,000 years of exile, they still had a right to their historic land, while denying that the Palestinians who were forced into their own Diaspora in 1948 now have the right of return.  The obvious argument is, “How can we let them come back when all they want to do is destroy us?”  Good point.  But that hate and anger results from the historic injustice visited on them when their land was appropriated from them by international organs (as previously cited) , and then compounded by 4 generations of living in squalid refugee camps after being driven out during the 1948 war.  What people wouldn’t become angry and desperate facing a future for their children no better than the miserable one their grandfathers had?

If one’s only purpose is to maintain one’s arguments and not to step back and see things from both perspectives, then you can be sure that a rapprochement will never be likely.  Mutual understanding and compromise through empathetic exchanges is the only road map, all others leading to a dead end.

 I find it very sad that so many educated people gather together 

feel pity for terrorists and condamn Israel constantly 

I feel pity for native Americans who live in settlements while their land 

is occupied by european settlers like tony, unless tony is a native american?

it is really quite boring by now 

perhaps you can examine your own belief system and wonder 

I would love to see palestine become a state so that the UN and Amnesty 

could finally address the issue of human rights abuse and violence

against its neighbor and within 

I would also like to see the USA return land to the Indians and other European nations go back to the border previous ww2 etc etc

but that is just a dream i guess

p.s. 

Human rights abuse is caused by the Palestinians towards their own people 

and backed up by Iran and Iraq

and you can deny it till the cows come home

and send links whatever, those poor peasants have someone supplying their weapons

they did not like the jewish population before the establishment of the state of israel and cooperated with the nazis , 

the Arabs sympathized with the Nazi German regime and encouraged it 

and this was before 1948 

I am not going to argue history because Americans, English etc

have done so much human rights abuse by occupying other people^s land 

that it is rather sad that they question the rights of Israelis to a tiny strip 

of land that historically is theirs

Anyway, Israel is there , that is a fact and no amount of violence will change 

that 

I think the best future for the palestinians is to have them declare a state

and then let them deal with the responsibility of self rule

and i think international intervention should not be allowed 

These kind of conferences are absurd because as long as the palestinians

use violence on Israel they will not get anything

and should not either

Violence is not a means to anything,

what Israel is doing is protecting its population

if you dont like that , it wont matter to Israel, because no one there  cares

for your approval just as no one did anything to stop the murder of jews

during the holocaust and throughout history

The international community is so concerned with the palestinians but across the border Arab moslems live in similar conditions while their regimes keep the poor poor and the sheiks flying airplanes

why dont you protest that ?

Should Israel share its knowledge and wealth with people who constantly 

try to destroy it ?

Hi Star,

This will be the last posting to this thread, admittedly a little out of frustration. The first terrorist attack in Palestine was committed by Menachem Begin and the Irgun in 1946, when they bombed the British Army's Headquarters at the King David Hotel and killed 91 people (British, Arabs and Jews, mainly hotel workers).  That is historic fact. 

Now a personal opinion: Israel's over-reactions in Lebanon in 2006 and Gaza in 2008-9 were as close to terrorist actions as the definition allows, even if they were in response to violent actions by the other sides. These actions went way beyond even what is allowed in Jewish religious law (Moses Law: An eye for an eye, etc.).

I agree with you that the US idea of Manifest Destiny was a horribly ignorant, arrogant and destrucive policy. But in my opinion Israel's 'new' version of it with regards to Jerusalem and the West Bank settlements is unacceptable in 2011. Except of course to most Israelies, "because", as you mentioned,"no one there cares for your approval".

And yes, I'm a guilty white American, but the only thing I occupy now is a little home in Montreux.

Wishing you well, Tony

@star: hello again,

I understand you find the idea of these conferences where people of all persuasions come together to talk in peace and to listen to each other respectfully ''absurd''. May i respectfully ask you to make a suggestion as to what you believe should replace these conferences? i accept for palestinians and israelis this is a question of their homeland. but there are many of us in the international community who care about israelis and palestinians too, and we want to help.

regards,

manics

My own little PS: The reason I went off about Lebanon and Gaza is not simply to rag on Israel, but because I feel strongly that besides being criminal and outrageous, these actions were counter-productive to Israel's own interests in both the short and long run.  We should expect better from the Jewish People than over-reaction and retribution.

You forgot to add "male" to the "guilty..."

I suspect that even "guilty white male Americans" don't want to see billions of their tax dollars and military technolgy going to support a government that denies many fundamental rights to other people in the territory.

Many other Americans -- including those who are Jewish  --- feel the same ---

http://www.forward.com/articles/135838

US out of Montreaux! (Er, um except for the musicians...) 

@ Star:

"Should Israel share its knowledge and wealth with people who constantly try to destroy it ?"

Should US citizens support their government in giving billions of dollars and technological assistance to Israel given that Israel provided critical nuclear weapons technology to the racist apartheid regime of South Africa?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/feb/07/southafrica.israel

Should billions of US citizens' tax dollars be used to support a government whose former soldiers have detailed the Israeli Defense Forces practice of human rights abuses of Palestinians?

http://www.shovrimshtika.org/media_item_e.asp?id=1

Hmmm, no more comments?  I guess we've come to a consensus. Mazeltov!

No, I think its far from consensus. I know I've given up disucssion here and I think Star has as well. Which is why its strange you are using a Hebrew phrase to celebrate something that hasn't yet happened.

Hi Ariel: I think consensus on this topic is a beautiful idea. But it's a long term goal. We can all start that process by just talking to each other, especially if we don't happen to share the same worldview.  You can't create a world changing consensus by dealing only with people with whom you already agree.

On that topic I was at another conference tonight and was there was no one there on stage representing the Israeli point of view. But what really ruined it for me was when a young guy asked a perfectly reasonable question about how government works inside the Palestinian territories - he was harangued by a representative from Palestine. This lady made NO attempt to answer his question, just straight into attack mode. Extremists...yawn! At least on glocals we have people from all over the world ready to share their perspectives in a non-threatening atmosphere.

Hope to see you on another post.

For those who would like some further reading on the topic, use the link:

http://www.tikkun.org/nextgen/rethinking-goldstone

Really englightening .. thank you all for your contributions and links ..

Why must Americans use acronyms for everything ("COIN"???)? Oh and please remind me when was the last time you people actually won a war? ;)

Hey, that's not fair.  We beat the crap out of Granada.

Sorry, Grenada (how soon we forget).

That doesn't count, it was practically in your backyard ;) (not to mention nearly 9,000 troops deployed against 1,500)

A song dedicated to all those people in the world who are brave enough to keep talking civilly to 'the other side'. The extremists from both camps want to scream all discussion into a barren silence. Let's show them their goals are perverted and that their strategies are ineffective. 

We use acronyms because we're so busy invading and/or saving the world. 

As to your other question, this reminds me of the famous exchange of when the French government demanded the US remove its troops from Europe in the 1960s. President Lyndon Baines Johnson famously riposted:  "Including those dead American boys in Normandy?"     Then again, the US has had (and will continue to have) its share of facists as well...

http://rationalrevolution.net/war/american_supporters_of_the_europ.htm

But as usual, I digress....

There are many people on both sides, all sides who want and are working for peace.  They just don't make as exciting press. 

Here is an article about how "former Israeli security chiefs have drafted a new peace plan they hope to use as a platform to pressure Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's government to renew deadlocked talks with the Palestinians."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/former-israeli-defense-chiefs-draft-new-mideast-peace-plan-1.354278

<<<As to your other question, this reminds me of the famous exchange of when the French government demanded the US remove its troops from Europe in the 1960s. President Lyndon Baines Johnson famously riposted:  "Including those dead American boys in Normandy>>>

To your point and more, I remember reading that the number of American war casualties European soil is 104,366.

Peace may be  bliss...but War is business..... thats why there will never be peace.

All the rest, ie either sides views (extremist or not) is inconsequential sadly....

God bless Switzerland...

Yes, but which one?

Good question.. Neutrality does not mean that war and conflicts are not profitable for Switzerland... au contraire...

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/foreign_affairs/Arms_export_vote_reflects_history_of_scandals.html?cid=4276

Just makes it safe here for those Switzerland agrees can stay..

If we are going to really have a conversation, let's just talk about the facts on how the State of Israel was formed in 1947:

Fact 1: The Balfour Declaration was a memo created by the British to support the creation of a Jewish homeland in exchange for hard dollars and military supplies from prominent Zionists, support from influential Jews followers and needed Jewish soldiers on the Eastern front.  The challenge has always been this: whether the Jewish people came from there or not, the UK had NO authority to give away the land of Palestine and they merely implied support for the creation of a Jewish homeland in the newly freed Palestine territory.  It was never to set the stage for the displacement the Palestinians that were there.

Fact 2: The Jewish people who inhabit Palestine today are not from that region, but were steered there from Europe in violation of the Balfour Declaration, which only supported 15000 Jewish emigrants per year. This was immediately and illegally tripled and created Jewish Arab friction.

Fact 3: Jewish terrorists especially the Irgun ran wild through Palestine, sniping, killing, bombing Palestinians to set the stage for a full expulsion of native Palestinians.  They were so horrible that they British scheduled the end of the Palestinian Mandate, it's policing of the state after the demise of the Ottoman Empire, as the protection of innocent civilians created too much of a tax burden on English Citizens.  The day before they were set to leave and have the League of Nations take over, the nation of Israel announced itself to the world.

Fact 4: After FDR died, his unremarkable Vice President Harry Truman took office.  Seriously short of campaign cash, the Zionists got him to support the idea of a Jewish State in exchange for support from Jewish Americans in his re-election campaign.  Truman, against most people in his cabinet including George Marshall author of the Marshall Plan, accepted this and with this infusion of cash, went on to win re-election over Dewey.  American politics has never been the same as the power of lobbying and hard cash allows US politicians to be completely biased toward Israel, no matter what it does to the Palestinians.

Fact 5: The declaration and subsequent acceptance of Israel's nationhood has started the world's longest refugee crisis: 44 years of Palestinian suffering.

Fact 6: The United Nations General Assembly meets in September 2011.  The Palestine Authority has over 100 countries ready to recognize the existence of the nation of Palestine at the pre-1967 borders (some already have).  There are no vetoes during the General Assembly, so the US cannot save Israel from the inevitable: the censure of its illegal settlement activity and the creation of a Palestinian state. 

Will Israel accept the will of the world and shrink to the 1967 borders or what?  What will happen next?  Stay tuned!

so it's money that matters...

the Jews and money, the holy combination 

lets forget every other contribution like how the zionist, a dirty word according to you , actually purchased land contrary to the cowboys in your homeland, and made that land a success

the only democratic country in that region 

the only place where both jews and arabs can be voted into office

I dont know where your forefathers come from

but jews come from that region, archeology can also provide facts

facts as you state them are SELECTED  facts

you choose to ignore the jewish contribution to the area not only in money

but in making the desert bloom, 

Israel offers aid to African countries and would help Palestinians if they 

did not insist on voting in the most extreme anti human rights regime

that kills whoever disagrees with them, that too is a fact

which is why the palestine conference is held in Geneva 

and not Gaza

The Palestinians have suffered but the responsibility can be given also 

to their leaders who took the Hundreds of millions of dollars given by the EU 

to Paris and other places , see Yasar Arafat^s legacy of bombing buses 

and lets get this clear 

The ones suffering are not the rich Jews but those riding buses 

and those living in the south of Israel 

DISPLACED jews from ARAB lands 

who were kicked out by the Arab lands 

The Land is not exclusively palestinian

The suffering is clear but the cause this time is not the JEWS

but the ones who insist on spreading hate racism and intolernace

amongst the ignorant masses

The picture you portray is biases

and should be given relativity by viewing how things are over the border

in the neighboring countries

there is a reason why the masses are finally rising in Egypt, Tunis, Syria 

the corrupt regimes are responsible for the suffering of the masses 

not the Jews 

the Jews have a democracy and a system that criticises its actions 

which is more than i can say for ANY country in that region 

so check your biased facts and realize what you say is not new

as King solomon said

"there is nothing new under the face of the planet

The Jewish suffering according to your version is always minimized

and the palestinian always maximized

you forget the pogroms the so called palestinians conducted in the Jewish peaceful population in Hebron in the 1920's

you forget the history of violence in the region did not start with the IDF

HOWEVER The violence against helpless defenseless jews end 

here and now

( the holocaust was just another case of violence against jews who were

accused of causing economic crisis so you are not original)

The suffering of the Palestinians will end when they decide they have 

had enough of violence and want responsibility of peaceful rational 

governing of their people

If the palestinians want peace they have many partners in Israel

and amongst ZIONIST jews

who support a peaceful resolution for the crisis in the middle east

ALbert Einstein by the way was another zionist

who said

"IThere are two things which are infinite and expanding ;

human stupidity and the universe and i am not so sure about the second"

Zionist jews made Israel a florishing modern democracy

 but what have the Palestinians done with the hundreds of millions of dollars

received by the EU?

The Moslem world is hardly the poor peasants you present 

dont forget the oil brothe s

if they choose to invest in rockets instead of infrastructure and a good school  enlightened system  instead of inciting for extremism it is hardly the fault 

of the zionists , jews. who are not all rich or buy their way

i think the nobel prizes in science, JC , Marx , Einstein, Kurt Weil, Kafka 

are not made by money ,

they are made by values and a tradition for ideas and ideals

just like modern zionism 

Another fact

Juliano Mer Khamis , a peace activist was shot by 5 masked gun men in Jenin

Juliano Mer Khamis was a son of a Jewish mother and a Palestinian man 

he was active in the peace movement and founded a theater in Jenin 

in efforts to bring culture to that town

he put up a play "Animal farm" which had actors playing pigs who are considered unholy according to Islam 

I dont know who shot him but all i know is that beautiful man 

who did so much to form a bridge between the two cultures 

was murdered trying to bring culture and enlightment 

It is a sad day 

i hope people in Geneva are aware of this man and his many deeds 

for the Palestinians

His body was given to the Israelis over the border for burial ..

May he rest in peace   

This man was shot for bringing modern theater to Jenin 

by masked men 

@Star: Regarding your quote "I dont know where your forefathers come from but jews come from that region, archeology can also provide facts"

Well we are all from Africa there are also facts which can be provided :)

Thank you for your reply Star.

Just remember what I said and did not say:

I did not say that Judaism should not be respected... it is a powerful force and rich religion.

I did not say that Jews should not be praised... indeed, the efforts by Jewish citizens are everywhere and powerful and positive.

I did not say that Jews do not deserve their own place under the Sun, they (you) absolutely deserve that.

I did not mention anything about other Arabs, I mentioned only the Palestinians who were displaced.

What I did say was how the land where Israel resides was formed between WW1 and 1947.  How it was done is the cause of Israel's issues.

So like I said, let's debate on fact, not emotion.

@ ToddH

"Fact 4: After FDR died, his unremarkable Vice President Harry Truman took office.  Seriously short of campaign cash, the Zionists got him to support the idea of a Jewish State in exchange for support from Jewish Americans in his re-election campaign.  Truman, against most people in his cabinet including George Marshall author of the Marshall Plan, accepted this and with this infusion of cash, went on to win re-election over Dewey.  American politics has never been the same as the power of lobbying and hard cash allows US politicians to be completely biased toward Israel, no matter what it does to the Palestinians."

Truman's support for the foundation of the State of Israel cannot and should not be reduced to pure money/power politics.   This point of view is ahistorical and ignores a much more complex story.

1) Yes, Truman was an "unremarkable Vice-President" as many were and will be. He turned out, in some ways, to be a very important President, particularly with respect to civil rights.  See this link:

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/when_did_blacks_start_voting_democratic.html

2) Secretary of State George Marshall as well as Secretary of Defense James Forrestal were much more concerned about upsetting Arab nations -- and the supply of petroleum to the United States -- than in promoting rights of Palestinians;  See this link:  paragraphs 98 - 128 [if you have the stamina and interest!] 

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/oralhist/hendrson.htm

3) While Truman may have been influenced by lobbyists who supported a state for Israel, it is also evident that he was heavily influenced by the overwhelming and shocking details of the Holocaust.  

It  would also be fair to say that Truman and others in power probably felt the need to support a homeland for surviving European Jews given the prior US immigration policy up until January 1944.  See this link:

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007094

In a close presidential campaign, candidates use every advantage, money, votes or whatever to win.  Did Jewish money and influence contribute to Truman's 1948 win over Dewey? Yes, and so did the 77% of the African-American vote.

Until Arab and Palestinian-Americans put the kind of organization, work, and money behind an effective lobbying and information campaign in the US and worldwide, the majority of the US public and Congress will continue to support the current state of affairs.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/126155/support-israel-near-record-high.aspx

Ilan Pappe has this to say about the European coloniisation plan for Palestine formulated in the late 19th century and up until 1948:

FB: For many people the Israel-Palestine conflict is about the Holocaust and the fact that the Jews of Europe had to find a place to live where they felt safe. Once the Jews arrived in Palestine, a dispute started about the land, between them and the indigenous inhabitants, the Palestinians. The dispute has now been going on for more than 60 years, both parties finding it impossible to reach a peace settlement. Is this what the conflict is about, in your opinion?

IP: No, no definitely not. The conflict is not about the Holocaust. The Holocaust is manipulated by the Israelis in order to maintain the conflict for their own interests. The conflict is a simple story of European settlers coming in the late nineteenth century motivated by all kinds of ideas, the dominating idea was that they needed a safe haven because Europe was not safe and that this was their ancient homeland. It happened before, this is not the only place where people have those weird ideas that they can come after 2000 years and reclaim something which was supposedly theirs. Because there were enough imperial powers willing to support this colonisation project they succeeded in putting a foot-hold and started first purchasing land and they exploited a certain land regime by which you could buy land from people who did not really owned it and expel the people who really cultivated it. But even that was not really successful. As you probably know, by the time the British Mandate ended, the Zionist movement succeeded in purchasing less than 7% of Palestine and bringing in a number of refugees, including after the Holocaust, which was not really impressive. All and all the Jewish community in the world prefer to go to Britain, the United States or stay in Europe, despite of the Holocaust. A very tiny minority came to Israel and that's why contrary to their earlier wishes the Zionist movement decided to bring Jews from the Arab world and de-arabise them so they would become Jewish and not identify with the Arab population. So the conflict is about a colonialist movement that because of the Holocaust succeeds in not appearing colonialist in a world that does not like colonialism anymore and is using all kinds of means and alliances to continue to colonise, ethnically cleanse and occupy. It's an incomplete atrocity. Zionism is an incomplete atrocity against the Palestinian People. Had it been complete, as the whites did in Australia and New Zealand, you probably would not have had a conflict today. It's good to understand why it's incomplete. That's because of Palestinian steadfastness and resistance. There you have it in a nutshell. A colonialist project trying to complete its plan, indigenous people resisting it, that would be a conflict, unless you decolonise Palestine and you move towards a post colonialist stage in the history of this place.http://counterpunch.org/barat04012011.html

Also someone (perhaps Pappe) has said that one of the greatest dangers for Israel is the loss of American Jewish support.  American Jews are liberals as about 80% voted Obama when with their well earned substantial wealth as an ethnic group you might expect them to be conservative Republicans. And liberals have a hard time with the behaviour of the state of Israel.  The same person said that 95% Americans don't know or care what Zionism is so it seems that the tide of time is flowing against Israel because of its behaviour and appeals to memory of the Holocaust fail as fewer and fewer Americans know what the Holocaust was.  It is in the interest of all Israeli Jews to behave and keep the friends they have.  Behaviour like Lebanon 2006 and the Gaza massacre are counterproductive for Israel.

On Joan Peter's 'From Time Immemorial' and the demographics of Palestine

Controversy and criticism

According to Frank Menetrez, writing in CounterPunch, “when a number of scholars examined the book carefully, they concluded that it was of no scholarly value whatsoever. It ignores important parts of the documentary record, misuses the sources on which it does rely, and contains straightforward logical errors. Consequently, according to Menetrez, "Peters’ book has been rejected as worthless by the scholarly community around the world, including Israel."[5]

Norman Finkelstein's Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict asserts that much of Peters' scholarship was fraudulent. Finkelstein's allegations that Alan Dershowitz plagiarized Peters' book became a central issue in the Dershowitz-Finkelstein affair. Noam Chomsky defended and promoted Finkelstein's critique, commenting:

[As] soon as I heard that the book was going to come out in England, I immediately sent copies of Finkelstein's work to a number of British scholars and journalists who are interested in the Middle East—and they were ready. As soon as the book [From Time Immemorial] appeared, it was just demolished, it was blown out of the water. Every major journal, the Times Literary Supplement, the London Review, the Observer, everybody had a review saying, this doesn't even reach the level of nonsense, of idiocy. A lot of the criticism used Finkelstein's work without any acknowledgment, I should say—but about the kindest word anybody said about the book was "ludicrous," or "preposterous."[6]

Robert Olson was among the few authors to write a critical review of the book before it was released in Britain.[7] He concluded:

This is a startling and disturbing book. It is startling because, despite the author's professed ignorance of the historiography of the Arab-Israeli conflict and lack of knowledge of Middle Eastern history (pp. 221, 335) coupled with her limitation to sources largely in English (absolutely no Arab sources are used), she engages in the rewriting of history on the basis of little evidence. ...The undocumented numbers in her book in no way allow for the wild and exaggerated assertions that she makes or for her conclusion. This book is disturbing because it seems to have been written for purely polemical and political reasons: to prove that Jordan is the Palestinian state. This argument, long current among revisionist Zionists, has regained popularity in Israel and among Jews since the Likud party came to power in Israel in 1977.[8]

Reviewing the book for the November 28, 1985 issue of The New York Times, Israeli historian Yehoshua Porath described the book as a "sheer forgery," stating that "[i]n Israel, at least, the book was almost universally dismissed as sheer rubbish except maybe as a propaganda weapon." [9]

On January 13, 1986, Anthony Lewis, in a column for The New York Times entitled "There Were No Indians", discussed the book's reception in the United States and Israel:

"Israelis have not gushed over the book as some Americans have. Perhaps that is because they know the reality of the Palestinians' existence, as great Zionists of the past knew. Perhaps it is because most understand the danger of trying to deny a people identity. As Professor Porath says, Neither historiography nor the Zionist cause itself gains anything from mythologizing history."[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_Time_Immemorial

“Countering official Zionist historiography, Sand questions whether the Jewish People ever existed as a national group with a common origin in the Land of Israel/Palestine. He concludes that the Jews should be seen as a religious community comprising a mishmash of individuals and groups that had converted to the ancient monotheistic religion but do not have any historical right to establish an independent Jewish state in the Holy Land. In short, the Jewish People, according to Sand, are not really a “people” in the sense of having a common ethnic origin and national heritage. They certainly do not have a political claim over the territory that today constitutes Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories, including Jerusalem.”

http://inventionofthejewishpeople.com/

Shlomo Sand (pronounced Zand; Hebrew: שלמה זנד‎), born 10 September 1946, is professor of history at Tel Aviv University and author of the controversial book The Invention of the Jewish People (Verso Books, 2009). His main areas of teaching are nationalism, film as history and French intellectual history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shlomo_Sand

@ Translator: Thank you for these additional facts.  I am very familiar with some of them and look forward to further digesting the others.  Please let me add a few points:

Point 1: I should be more careful: Truman was not "unremarkable"; he just had to fill FDR's shoes, something no person could do.  He did go on to do many good things, but focusing on what we are focusing on, his recognizing of Israel against his Secretary of State, while allowing an entire people to be displaced was not a fine moment for America.

Point 2: George Marshall was correct in saying that America should make decisions based on our long term strategic plans, not the pandering to lobbyists who can give you money for the next election.  I agree with him.  Why antagonize our oil suppliers and create long term security issues? Why support a state which will need our long term financial assistance to survive and thrive?  To this day, the US give over 2 billion in aid to Israel, by far the largest support we give to any foreign nation.    

Point 3: The Holocaust was sad.  It was grim.  The suffering of Jews and other citizens of Europe at the hands of Nazism was great.  It still does not mean that you take from one people to give to another because of some shame or guilt.  That is what happened.  While other countries offered up place for Jews to rebuild, they wanted to go to Jerusalem (which I understand); however, this place was already settled.  There were 700000 Arabs in Palestine at the time. So guilt allowed for the displacement of an entire people?  To me, this was wrong and I would have been against this.

Point 4: You are correct, Arabs and Palestinian-Americans need to take lessons on mastering lobbying and become more politically active. 

Summary: Again, the Jewish people deserved a homeland, but to displace another people to give one to them was wrong.  Now it is time for that displaced people, the Palestinians, to have a home land as well.  It will be interesting to watch what happens at the United Nations General Assembly in September.

Thank you again! 

 Todd

Hey, Todd:

Thanks for your reasoned response. In my view, the most important point you raised the the last. This will be a major political development in the history of the region.

I would argue with point 2.  Long-term security interests can be defined in differing ways. My initial point was that Marshall was basing his calculus primarily on the proposition that the US should not offend leaders of petroleum-supplying nations.

In fact, US dependence upon foreign oil supplies has led our nation into all kinds of conflicts around the world over the decades. This has led to everything BUT long-term security and is the main reason why Bush Administration's I and II invaded Iraq, to mention but 2 recent engagements. 

The US has not only imperiled its national security goals but many US soldiers and citizens of these war-torn nationns have lost their lives in these wars both declared and undeclared.  Were soldiers fighting for the right to drive SUVs across America?

Yes, some people in the State Department were against the displacement of the Palestinians. It was wrong. The Holocaust was uppermost in politicians minds.  We also cannot discount the fact that many in Congress as well as in the Administration did not want a major influx of Jewish refugees into the United States.

Just as in many real-politik sitiuations, the weak lose out.  What happened to the Palestinains was wrong and many Israelis as well as Jews in the diaspora see that and are working to change it.

Then again, hindsight is 20/20.  Politicians and diplomats, like the military are often fighting the previous battle rather than the present or the future one.

@ Translator

You have brought up many excellent and balanced points.  Thank you for your contribution to this exchange.

PS  It's great to have a new voice in the debate!  Look forward to hearing more..

For those who'd like to read a little more on the upcoming vote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/03/world/middleeast/03mideast.html

http://www.americantaskforce.org/palestinian_statehood

I love Mark Twain and thiink he was one of America's great writers of fiction comedic and otherwise.  i wouldn't however use him or his travelogue 'The Innocents Abroad' as a definitive source of information on the demographics of Palestine at the time of his travels in 1867.  I don't believe Clemens was an historian nor well studied in the history of the region in which he travelled.  I also doubt he spoke Arabic. Hence if I was to choose my sources on the issue of Palestinian demographics I would leave Twain to the side.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Innocents_Abroad

for me it is an emotional issue i admit

and i do see marksist comments as evil

first of all because the holocaust is not a manipulative  tool but a tragic concequence of the antisemitic violence you ignore so well 

which is why the jews ended up in Israel 

Look i dont have time for this today but this are the facts

Israel is there

the Palestinians are there

we can all talk really well if the other so called do gooders would not excuse violence and terror

as for money, well , i would like a balanced look 

criticize the arab world for giving money for weapons

criticize europe for giving weapons 

criticize yourself for not being loving and compassionate enough 

the holocaust is not a tool it is a horrible event that made jews open their 

eyes and say we dont take that shit anymore

we want to have our own land and we have a land already

we want not to be killed and murdered just because the political leader

czar whatever evil power wants to scapegoat us

as for the palestinians, dont worry about them, there are plenty of good 

israelis and jews who are going to speak up for their rights 

when the extremists get out so will the evil dooers

YOu can say what you can but Israel has no evil intentions of killing anyone

it does have the full intention of keeping jews alive and well in their 

own homeland 

check your history and check out how people react to jews and then you will

get what it is all about, this thread and others

it is never about palestinians really because there are millions of suffering people all over the globe and many of them in Moslem extreme ruled lands

but nobody gives a damn

It is not a wise act to attack Israel so much 

it is so much wiser to attack racism and extremism rather than play 

the jews money game 

it has been done by the Nazis

it has been done by antisemitics everywhere

get over it 

money money money 

but what about people^s rights to be who they are 

free of discriminatory comments?

what about being able to believe what you want to and practice your faith 

without ugly comments and laws to limit it

The disproportional focus on Israel is what is wrong

what do you want israel to do ?

pack up and leave the palestinians the land?

no, the land should be shared but it should be done in peace

not through the Hamas and not through conferences that give Israel

so much responsibility and take so little

the holocaust was the test for humanity and most people failed miserably

but the ones that were human and helped

would never ever doubt the Jews have the right to their historical homeland 

because they witnessed how hate and racism works against jews

that is very simple for me 

it is not anything to argue about 

because at the end of the day it is not about palestinians it is about 

not liking jews having their own land 

because if you wanted to and researched you could doubt any people^s rights 

to any land in europe and in america but the whole point of what you people post is to attack israel and doubt its legitimacy and that i find very immoral due to the history in europe and in arab lands

Anyone who is going tomorrow who would like the schedule list of topics and speakers (time, speaker, language, topic) send me a glocals email with your personal email and I can send you the file.

I think that's the first time I've been called evil, at least for talking about Mark Twain and citing respected Jewish historians!  Lucky I didn't mention what Twain said in 'Concerning the Jews', then I'd be the devil himself: 

"The essay included the statement that Jews did not do their part in terms of fighting in America's armed forces: "He is a frequent and faithful and capable officer in the civil service, but he is charged with an unpatriotic disinclination to stand by the flag as a soldier - like the Christian Quaker." However, when War Department figures revealed that Jewish Americans were actually represented in the nation's military in a larger percentage than their share of the population, Twain issued a retraction and an apology[2] entitled, "Postscript - The Jew as Soldier." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concerning_the_Jews

Ah, the great Gilmour guitarist and vocalist! (A child of that time I confess).

This New York Times article talks about Netanyahu's "embrace" of Mark Twain.

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/20/netanyahus-embrace-of-mark-twain/

There is some interesting information at this general site:

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/

Historical timeline:

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000635

41 Maps covering 5,000 years of history:

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000642

Key Documents :

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000638

Did You Know?

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000634

Is this a discussion about Palestinians and Israelis??

If so, why is there constant references to "Jews"...since surely being Jewish is a religeous issue and not one of nationality nor rights to land in Israel.

If Im wrong please correct me, but does having the Jewish faith give one automatic right to land in Israel or Israeli nationality???

If not, then I dont understand why "non Israelis" get so animated about this subject with misplaced references to the holocaust etc...

(However, if the religeous beliefs do indeed give you these rights, then I stand corrected and thank whomever clarified this point for me in advance.) 

To all: I really enjoy having this spirited debate! 

@ Star

Thank you for your response!

You have a right to be emotional, but be fair.

First, I have to mention this: just because someone criticizes Israel does not make them anti-Semitic (especially Arabs who are all Semitic descendants as well and unless they hate themselves, cannot be anti-Semitic). 

The truth is the truth and I personally only deal with the truth in all subjects, not just this one. Now to the truth...

When you said: " YOu can say what you can but Israel has no evil intentions of killing anyone it does have the full intention of keeping jews alive and well in their own homeland ", I understand the intent, but you and I both understand that this “intention” has led to the systematic destruction and discrimination of non-Jews who lived there, indiscriminate bombing of innocents, and targeted assassinations of suspects all over the globe.  This is wrong and violates international law.

“In their own homeland?”. You and I both know that the idea of an ancestral homeland is silly… this notion does not allow Native Americans to get Manhattan back, the Maori to have New Zealand back or any thing else.  This does not hold water either.

Countries are political entities forged from war.  Israel fought a war and won its independence.  It created a Jewish State that celebrates Judaism and to create itself and maintain its purity, violently expelled most of the people who where there and now purposely discriminates against non-Jews (if they allow mixing freely, there would not be a Jewish State in one generation).  So, right or wrong, I understand that. 

Let’s define a few things:  Apartheid is the forcible separation of people based on differences.  Discrimination is bias against people based on differences.  Racism is the economic bias, a system based on discriminatory bias against people based on their differences.  So by policy, Israel systematically has created an apartheid state that discriminates against all non-Jews in a racist way based on a person’s religion.  You know this. It’s public record.  If it fits, wear it, celebrate it.  It’s the only way to move forward.

Finally, you also asked: "what do you want Israel to do? Pack up and leave the land to the Palestinians?". It is not for me to answer.  What I would say is that it should follow international law first and foremost and negotiate borders directly with the Palestinian Authorty or wait and respect the final decision of the United Nations General Assembly.  If that means packing up and moving back to 1967 borders, or anything else, so be it.

Thanks.

Great NY Times article describing Twain's writing style.  It reminds me of 'A Tramp Abroad' where that style is quite recognizable.

Thanks for your post Charlie.

The thread started after a review of a conference on Palestine, then evolved into a general discussion on Israel and it's treatment of Palestinians specifically. 

Based on Israel's Law of Return, any person who is Jewish and verified by a rabbinical authority, can claim Israeli citizenship.  I found this as a source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Immigration/Text_of_Law_of_Return.html

This source quotes in Law of Return (Amendment No. 2) 5730-1970*, section 4B: For the purposes of this Law, "Jew" means a person who was born of a Jewish mother or has become converted to Judaism and who is not a member of another religion."

Just for reference:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2001/8/Acquisition%20of%20Israeli%20Nationality

Source. Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs

Religion does indeed come into the issue:

A) "Acquisition of Nationality according to the Law of Return

On the establishment of the State, its founders proclaimed "...the renewal of the Jewish State in the Land of Israel, which would open wide the gates of the homeland to every Jew...." In pursuance of this tenet, the State of Israel has absorbed survivors of the Holocaust, refugees from the countries in which they had resided, as well as many thousands of Jews who came to settle in Israel of their own volition.

The Law of Return (1950) grants every Jew, wherever he or she may be, the right to come to Israel as an oleh (a Jew immigrating to Israel) and become an Israeli citizen.

For the purposes of this Law, "Jew" means a person who was born of a Jewish mother or has converted to Judaism and is not a member of another religion.

Israeli citizenship becomes effective on the day of arrival in the country or of receipt of an oleh's certificate, whichever is later. A person may declare, within three months, that he/she does not wish to become a citizen.

Since 1970 the right to immigrate under this Law has been extended to include the child and the grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew. The purpose of this amendment is to ensure the unity of families where intermarriage had occurred; it does not apply to persons who had been a Jews and had voluntarily changed their religion.

Source: Israeli MFA

B) Arab Israelis

 "Israel is home to a highly diverse population from many different ethnic, religious, cultural and social backgrounds. Of its 6.3 million citizens, over one million, constituting nearly 20 percent of Israel's population, are not Jewish. Almost all are Arab Israelis, mainly residents from before the establishment of the State of Israel or their descendants.

Source:  http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/arabs2.html

And a little politics mixed in...

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/poll-most-israeli-jews-believe-arab-citizens-should-have-no-say-in-foreign-policy-1.327972

And some Israeli politicians apparently want to "expel" Arab Israelis to a Palestinian State...

http://english.aljazeera.net/palestinepapers/2011/01/2011124105622779946.html

What I find puzzling about the concept of a land without people for a people without land is the idea that for 2000 years such a fertile land should be unoccupied.  As someone has mentioned, Israel is a small country.  One would have thought that inhabitants in neighboring countries might have noticed it and said 'hey let's give it a go here'.

Also why did the jews (Ashkenazi and Sephardic) leave it unihabited for 2000 years?  Were there no well off Jews with sentimental attachment to the land capable of going there themselves or organising mass migration until only 2000 years after leaving?

Ilan Pappe in 'The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine' clearly and at length documents the presence of Arab Palestinians in productive inhabitation of Palestine for centuries.  The book contains extensive references and maps from The Jewish Agency, Israeli government archives, Zionist leaders etc..http://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Cleansing-Palestine-Ilan-Pappe/dp/1851685553/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1302174755&sr=1-1

And Uri Avnery talks about his own participation in the horrendous treatment of the inhabitants of Palestine while he was a soldier in his book 1948 A Soldier's Tale: The bloody road to Jerusalem. Look inside at: http://www.amazon.com/1948-Soldiers-Tale-Bloody-Jerusalem/dp/1851686290/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1302174810&sr=1-3

How could anyone maintain that the land was empty for 2000 years and that only Arabs have inflicted pain on Jews???!!!

OK, I can't keep still. If a Muslim country declares a "Muslim State", this is seen universally as a negative thing. When some US politicians (invariably from the Right) describe the United States as a "Christian country", they rightfully get drilled a new one in the media. Why is it then that Israeli politicians (and sadly a few American ones, too) can insist loudly and proudly that Israel is a "Jewish State", and not receive the deserved reaction of jaw-gaping incredulity?

Something else that has just barely been touched on here, but is important. I hereby state unequivocably that critism of Israel does not make one anti-Semite. This is a worn-out strategy which by overuse will surely illicit nothing but derision in the future. Especially when used against the growing ranks of Israelis and other Jews who are outraged by Israel's actions and policies. If you can't defend your positions with reasoned arguments, then change them, or admit that you don't care what anyone else thinks, you're going to do what you want (I think I did hear that statement back there somewhere. Bravo!)

Here is a wonderfully clear, complete and succinct article detailing the historical facts about Palestine/Israel for those who would like to get a clear unbiased overview of how we got where we are today.

http://www.brianwillson.com/history-of-palestine-and-green-line-israel/

Thank you Star for making me aware of this very interesting humanitarian.  Here is an article (of which I cut and paste the first paragraph) by someone who knew him and his mother somewhat which gives some more background on who Julian was, what he did and why.

"My Name is Juliano"

The Sudden Death of Juliano Mer-Khamis

By LARRY PORTIS

The last time I spoke with Juliano Mer-Khamis was exactly five years ago. My companion, Christiane Passevant, and I were in Haïfa to meet with him and others in connection with a project on dissident women in the Middle East. Juliano didn’t arrive for the interview after having told me the previous evening he would spend the day in Jenin and then see us in Haïfa. When he didn’t show I began leaving him messages on his cell phone. We were perturbed because the appointment had been made well in advance and we had meetings in the West Bank and could not linger in Haïfa. Finally we made contact late in the evening: “Larry, Larry,” he said, “I’m stuck at a checkpoint, it’s raining like mad and,” he laughed, “the soldiers are quite nervous. They think I’m a suspicious person.”

http://counterpunch.org/portis04062011.html

What about the israeli colonisation in the West Bank?

As far as I know in palestine there is the Fatah, which is in contol of the West Bank. This governement is not actually in war with Israel and they have been in contact for many years. However there is still the colonisation problem, I don't undertsand why Israel don't stop the colonisation in the West Bank?

There is also the Hamas which is in control of the Gaza Trip and which is clearly against Israel. As Israel and the Hamas don't talk each other, I understand there is no way for the moment to find a peace agreement.

I really think that the colonisation is one of the main problem of the region and I completely understand the Palestinian view about this.

It is not the interest of Israel to stop the colonisation, why should they stop it? Even the UN and the International Community blamed them, they still continu the colonisation, they know no one can stop them and don't care if it is fair or not for the palestinians.

For most of Israelis Palestine belong to them, even if the palestinians have been there for centuries it does not matter.

The main purpose to the colonisation is to expand the Israel territory and their power in the region. So again why should they stop?

For sure receving rockets from Gaza and terrorists attacks do not help and it gives just a good excuse to continue.

colonistation ? 

have you a microscope?

It is so ironic that people from the USA, FRANCE and the UK blame Israel 

for colonisation .

Check out the territory, its size and check out the ACTIONS of the palestinians 

and what CAUSED the violence and what MOTIVATES it 

you can not call it colonisation

what the extreme Moslems wish is to have only ONE type of people living in the middle east by colonisation 

what Israel wants is to survive in that tiny piece of land , the settlements

are tiny strips of land when you compare to the 50 Arab nations that surround  tiny Israel 

anyway, whatever you say, the Israelis are not leaving, and the palestinians 

will not get more land by using violence

no matter what israel has done in the past the actions of the palestinians remain the same 

These kind of conferences like the one in Geneva will get no result as long as the palestinian leadership does not take responsibility by refusing to sit and talk and insisting on violence

Please look at the map and consider the size of the land and compare it 

to France, USA and UK

ask yourself what would you do if you were kicked out of France, forced into exile, not allowed to live as a free people with a unique identity as other nations allow themselves and then be told you colonize your own land when you return to rule it ?

Israel has nothing to apologize for , the Hamas targets school buses and will get in return a clear message

Israel does not need permission to guard its territory from violent thugs who have no peaceful agenda 

When the Hamas changes its philosophy there could be hope but as long as the agenda is so clear the do gooders from the USA colonized land of the native americans and the europeans who have colonized africa, abused its people and stole from them their pride and their resources must not accuse Israel of crimes it is not guilty of

Let each person look at their own deeds

and let people who live in glass houses not throw stones

Ask yourselves why you dont show the same amount of anger towards the violence in Ivory coast, Tibet , China and why Israel is always demonised and targeted for its actions

could you do it better?

Dont forget the people in Israel contrary to the Americans did not come to a foreign land and occupy it by force

Study history and remember there is a connection between the people and the land and unlike the wonderful people of Tibet the people in Israel are not going into exile again

DISCLAIMER: Like I mentioned previously, I will debate this hard on ANY subject, as I stick the FACTS. The truth is the truth. 

Thank you Star for your reply. Let's dissect your words:

You said: "check out the ACTIONS of the palestinians and what CAUSED the violence and what MOTIVATES it”

Factual Response: The violence was started by Zionist terrorists when the Zionists initiated a huge influx of Jewish settlers and forcibly pushed out 700,000 Palestinians, creating a refugee crisis and resistance.

You said: "what the extreme Moslems wish is to have only ONE type of people living in the middle east by colonisation"

Factual Response: Who said anything about Muslims?  We are talking about Palestinians defined as people from Palestine.  This includes Palestinian Christians, Muslims, atheists, Druze, and other peoples who have been on the land for millennia.  The vast majority of the Jews living in Israel are NOT from this land, they are from Eastern Europe.  Anyone can become Jewish, just as they can follow any other religion.  This is not the same as descending from a specific place.

You said: "ask yourself what would you do if you were kicked out of France, forced into exile, not allowed to live as a free people with a unique identity as other nations allow themselves and then be told you colonize your own land when you return to rule it ?"

Factual Response: I would ask myself why I was kicked out of France, forced into exile, not allowed to live as a free people, etc. and try to understand why this pattern follows me.

Saying Judaism does not have a unique identify is crazy, it has an incredibly rich identity, but it is a religion and has no claims to any land.

You said: "These kind of conferences like the one in Geneva will get no result as long as the palestinian leadership does not take responsibility by refusing to sit and talk and insisting on violence"

Factual Response: Israel has defied the Geneva Convention and international law from the beginning as it continues to operate state sponsored assassinations outside of its sovereign territory as late as two weeks ago in Sudan.  It takes two.

You said: "Dont forget the people in Israel contrary to the Americans did not come to a foreign land and occupy it by force"

Factual Response: Most of the people occupying Israel today descend from Eastern Europe and are not indigenous to the Middle East.

You said: "Study history and remember there is a connection between the people and the land"

Factual Response: Exactly. The Palestinian people are from Palestine.  They are a people.  It is not the same thing as people following a religion.  Anyone can become Jewish, just as they can follow any other religion.  This is not the same as descending from a specific place.

You said: "the do gooders from the USA colonized land of the native americans... and let people who live in glass houses not throw stones"

My opinion: This is a bold statement considering that Israel gets 2 Billion in aid from the US every year and just yesterday are asking for 220 Million more to pay for a new missile defense system, not to mention DEPEND on the US' support in the UN Security Council to not have it's actions censured or controlled by the UN.  Live without the aid of those "do gooders" and come back to me.

The truth is the truth.

Thank you Todd I like you way to reply to Star, if you don't mind I will use the same.

@Star you said : It is so ironic that people from the USA, FRANCE and the UK blame Israel for colonisation.

My question: I am proud to be french, but do you really think that I am proud about the crimes committed by my country on innocent people on our colonisation period?

@Star you said: When the Hamas changes its philosophy there could be hope.

My question: The Fatah in the West Bank had changed its philosophy with Israel, they blaming each Hamas attacks on Israel, but why Israel doesn't stop the colonisation in the West Bank with the people who don't attack them?

@Star you said : the settlements are tiny strips of land when you compare to the 50 Arab nations that surround  tiny Israel anyway,

Factual Response: there is only 22 Arabs countries.

@Star you said : the palestinians will not get more land by using violence.

My question: How has Israel pushed out 700,000 Palestinians from Palestine and get his land without violence?

and why is it always from Jewish people that we are expecting something? I would expect the arabs and the muslims who have so much land in comparison to Israel (when you look at the map) to make the biggest concessions. However, they are not ready to do it, they do not want peace otherwise they would have had it a long time ago. Mainly, they will never stop bothering Israel until there is no more Israel. When you talk about the splitting of the land, what about the land that was given and which is now Jordan, was that also a mistake? Instead of always pointing out to Jews, I would like to see the Arabs and Muslims making some paths towards peace but so far I only see rockets, hate, targetting of civilians, terrorist attacks, murdering of entire family (Itamar), etc. Israel is an amazing country that has integrated, yes integrated, different faiths, origins and that should be 'THE EXAMPLE' for all other middle eastern countries, where in most cases Christians as well as Jews have been and are still persecuted if not killed. God bless Israel!

Star:

You write of the power of prayer on one thread, but speak with such violence and without facts on this one.  It is astonishing.

You may benefit from reading this article from www.tikkun.org.  If not, perhaps others will.

http://www.tikkun.org/nextgen/fear-and-consequences-healing-from-jewish-historical-trauma

For those interested in further information about US aid to Israel -- not 2 billion but closer to 3 billion annually, read the following link:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

@ Felipe:

You said: "I am proud to be french, but do you really think that I am proud about the crimes committed by my country on innocent people on our colonisation period?"

Thank you for sharing! To me, this is a POWERFUL statement, spoken by a man who obviously knows the history of his people and can accept the truth, whether good or bad.

Bravo.

And it would be nice for once if all these so-called politically correct fashionable organization such as the UN and people would focus more on gender equality in arabic countries, freedom for Tibet, etc instead of always coming back with Israel. 

What disturbs me even more is the current european biased media that keeps on talking about the 'poor palestinians' always downplaying what Israel has to endure. Many people on this thread may pretend not to be taking side, so let me be straight with you, I am not lukewarm, I am taking side and my side is for Israel and the jewish people!

p.s. I am not jewish

Dear Todd,

1)I think nobody is proud to having committed crimes against innocent people, appart from, ah yes, some so-called palestinians who rejoice anytime innocent people are murdered in Israel and distribute sweets in the West Bank or Gaza

2)The Fatah has not proven amazingly better than Hamas but would be a better peace partner

3)Please look at a map, Israel is a tiny country in comparison to Arab lands beside it

4)Instead of trying to deligitimize Israel, why not move forward with just the fact that Israel exists, has all its reasons to exist (legally as well) and will continue to exist.

5)No country is perfect, Israel is a young country and when you look at the diversity there, it is really an example for the middle east when tolerance, equality and democracy are considered, please compare with other middle east countries for facts and do no look for perfection. Did you know that in the Gaza strip, women can legally be (and often are) killed if they are caught having adulterous relationships (and even on suspicion of having a boyfriend), the guy of course gets away with it. What about the status of Jewish people in Arabic lands, or let's talk about the recent unpunished murders of Copts in Egypt?

6) Some people argue that Zionism and Judaïsm are not linked, actually they are from the time of the Tora. Anti-semitism is growing in the West (for example recent synagogue burnt in the US or jewish students hassled), I have seen TV programs on arabic channels that are for children where these children are brainwashed to hate jewish people and where they are taught that they should all be killed (not only Israelis). In the Gaza strip they even train children to become suicide bombers and killers. Again here, let's talk about who is the most tolerant and having the most humane behavior.

Sarah, Sarah, Sarah, you have not read anything I have written have you?  I continue to stick with FACTs not emotion.  Let’s go through your points: 

1: “I think nobody is proud to having committed crimes against innocent people”. 

I hope not.  Israel seems to excel at it. Looking at the last Gaza incursion where there were over 1300 people killed, mostly women and children killed with indesriminate bombing using white phosphorus (illegal in international law).  Violence is wrong, so I hope the cease fire sticks.

2: “The Fatah has not proven amazingly better than Hamas”.

Fatah and Hamas are not perfect and could be much better at framing the debate.  They have gotten much better and I hope the cease fire holds.  But whether we like it or not, Hamas was elected democratically and that is who represents the people of Gaza.

3. “Please look at a map, Israel is a tiny country in comparison to Arab lands beside it”. 

We are NOT talking about the Arab lands that surround it.  We are focused on how Israel treats Palestinians.  Palestinians are also refugees in those surrounding lands including Jordan and Lebanon based on their expulsion during the formation of Israel.

4. “Instead of trying to deligitimize Israel, why not move forward with just the fact that Israel exists”. 

Israel earned the right to exist through war.  I accept that and am not trying to delegitimze anything.  What I am doing is calling attention to how it was formed and what it does. That it expelled 700,000 inhabitants to create it’s country is the cause of its problems. 

5. “No country is perfect, Israel is a young country and when you look at the diversity there, it is really an example for the middle east when tolerance, equality and democracy are considered”. 

Israel is a Jewish State and have very sharp laws to discriminate against all non-Jewish and to discourage the mixing of races, as it would spoil it’s Jewish-ness in one generation.  While it’s open for western tourism and investment, it’s a fairly closed and singular society.  The non-Jewish people that live and participate in society there were typically the descendants of people that remained after its formation.  This is widely known.  So I agree with you, Israel is not perfect. 

 6. “In the Gaza strip they even train children to become suicide bombers and killers”. 

It’s good to know that you visited these suicide bomber training camps in Gaza and verified their existence.  Or did you just read that somewhere?  Hmmm, how convenient…  What IS clear is that the mandatory military service + the belligerent anti-Palestinian politics in Israel ensure that all Israeli children are trained to become bombers, snipers, shooters, and killers. 

I do not call that tolerant and humane.

Dear Todd,

Don't play the smart one with me, I am following facts about Israel since probably as long as you. The question is where do you get your facts from? All medias here are completely biased towards so-called palestinians. Additionally, from outside it is really easy to speak about what you read in newspaper or books but you might see things differently if you lived there, this is why, let's not dismiss what Star and Ariel mentioned above.

1) the last Gaza incursion was caused by constant bombing on Israel, which has been happening again and again lately as you probably know!! Whereas Israel is clearly trying to target military and really tries not to hit civilians, it is clear that so-called palestinian Hamas are targetting civilians on purpose, have you seen the bus hit recently or the last bomb in Jerusalem!

2) the middle east problem does not stop to palestinians but englobes the whole arab world or are you not aware of the political entanglement?

3)Yes, Hamas a terrorist organization being elected then represents exactly the majority of people's view there, great, isn't it? It shows a lot about the people.

4) Israel receive land legally, as did Jordan!

5) funny I just come back from Israel and met some Arabs who were very well integrated and even supported Israel, mmhhh - by the way have you been to Israel?

6) I did not go to training camps but have seen videos and you? did you see the non existing camps? Of course not as this is not possible.

In any case, you do not reply on any mention above about women rights in Gaza or else or comparison with other arabic countries around there, but I suppose this has nothing to do with Israel, of course.

If there are restrictions right now on Gaza and West Bank, there is a good reason for it, that being terror attacks, etc. But of course I will not convince you....

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/143367

Sometime I am surprised how people can be stupid :)

me too :-)

I don't think that is what either Star or Sarah are saying. They are, it appears to me, trying to articulate the frustration that Jews/Israelis/supporters of Israel feel when conversations focus on the suffering of Palestinians, and in so doing, ignore the suffering of Jews and Israelis. 

In fact, how the Israelis retaliate is almost always within the bounds of international law. This is the exact opposite case for Hamas. Hamas not only uses its own citizens against Israelis as human shields, but even a few weeks ago, Hamas violently reacted to a peaceful assembly of Palestinians who were calling for unity of Palestinian parties! 

Star mentioned above the cartoons that are shown to young children all over the Arab world on television. I offer one more example, which potrays the Holocaust to young Arabs. With this kind of hate being passed to the younger generations, what, precisely, do you think we should do?

http://www.themuslimtv.net/view_video.php?viewkey=ccb4c6370be154552f3e&page&viewtype&category

As I said, no country is perfect, have you missed this? I am just tired of having Israel being targeted continuously by the press, by the people, having it being demonized and even delegitimized, that's all. Additionally, I do not like the fact that Israelis are often getting hard times when they are abroad just because they are Israelis. The same applies to jewish people who get associated to this prejudice, that they be zionists or not.

toda raba

Sarah,

You said: Don't play the smart one with me, I am following facts about Israel since probably as long as you. The question is where do you get your facts from? All medias here are completely biased towards so-called palestinians. Additionally, from outside it is really easy to speak about what you read in newspaper or books but you might see things differently if you lived there, this is why, let's not dismiss what Star and Ariel mentioned above.

Response: I get my news from the Haaretz, Jerusalem Post, The New York Times, Speigel Online, Swiss Info, Al Jazeera, etc. I take an issue and try to examine it from many angles and form an opinion.  Which news source would you recommend?

I am also a student of military history and strategy from Attila the Hun forward and focus on facts.  Do you dispute how Israel was formed?  Do you dispute that the “So-called Palestinians” were already living there?  Where do your facts come from?

I do not dismiss what anyone else has said, I stated my positions based on the facts that I have researched and checked.  Interviews from people who have seen how the Israeli police discriminate against people depending on what color their license plate was.  How they gathered their families in the hallway while the bombs were dropping through residential neighborhoods. Plain and clear.

You said: 1) the last Gaza incursion was caused by constant bombing on Israel, which has been happening again and again lately as you probably know!! Whereas Israel is clearly trying to target military and really tries not to hit civilians, it is clear that so-called palestinian Hamas are targetting civilians on purpose, have you seen the bus hit recently or the last bomb in Jerusalem!

Response: I agree that the Gaza incursion was initiated by constant bombing of Israel with dumb artillery projectiles.  It was not smart.  Israel responded with indiscriminate bombing of white phosphorus throughout Gaza.  This accomplished nothing but a lowering of its international standing and triggered the Internet powered backlash.

 You said: 2) the middle east problem does not stop to palestinians but englobes the whole arab world or are you not aware of the political entanglement?

Response: For many decades the Middle East problem was no problem, just a rag tag bunch of Palestinians making noise from time to time.  Egypt did nothing.  Jordan did nothing.  Lebanon did nothing.  Turkey did nothing. Israel traded freely with all of its neighbors save Iran.  Now, the world is changing, mostly due to information being allowed to move freely via the Internet.  Now the word is out and the truth is illuminating people who have more and more to say about the apartheid that Israel maintains.

You said: 3) Yes, Hamas a terrorist organization being elected then represents exactly the majority of people's view there, great, isn't it? It shows a lot about the people.

Response: Terrorists are what the big army calls the little army.  One man’s terrorist is another’s freedom fighter.  Put the Irgun there as well and live with it.  Violence is wrong and I am glad that there is a cease fire today.

You said: 4) Israel receive land legally, as did Jordan!

Response: Legally?  How? The Balfour Declaration was only an acknowledgement from the British that they agreed they Jewish people should have their own land, and this should be in the Palestinian territories recently liberated from the Ottoman Empire, as long as it was agreed with the Palestinians who were already there.  The British Mandate of Palestine was completely undermined by Zionist terrorists, the Irgun, and the British eventually quit, leaving the newly formed League of Nations to try to govern.  Israel declared its independence, was acknowledged by a waiting US, fought a war, and won. 

You said: 5) funny I just come back from Israel and met some Arabs who were very well integrated and even supported Israel, mmhhh - by the way have you been to Israel?

Response: I have never been to Israel and until it stops the apartheid, I have no interest in going unless I am heading to Palestine.

You said: 6) I did not go to training camps but have seen videos and you? did you see the non existing camps? Of course not as this is not possible.

Response: I have seen a bunch of videos of training camps without any verification of what I was watching.  So I dismissed them.  That’s what a researcher does, only integrates facts when they are verified.

You said: In any case, you do not reply on any mention above about women rights in Gaza or else or comparison with other arabic countries around there, but I suppose this has nothing to do with Israel, of course.

Response: Women’s rights are a struggle in Gaza and many Islamic countries.  This has to do with the evolution of Islam, nothing to do with Israel.  I applaud Israel in its treatment and celebration of gender equality.

If there are restrictions right now on Gaza and West Bank, there is a good reason for it, that being terror attacks, etc. But of course I will not convince you....

Response: Restrictions against basic food stuffs?  Against fruits and vegetables? Against the news media? Against Doctors without Borders and the International Red Cross? Sorry, but this makes no sense to me. 

I am open minded enough to be convinced, evident in my responses above where I agreed with your responses. But this was never about convincing anyone of anything.  This was about talking about the truth on how Israel was formed, how it treats the Palestinians, and how it continuously breaks international law, and how the US will not be able to save it against the vote that is coming in the United Nations General Assembly in September when Palestine asks for it to be recognized at the 1967 borders.

That’s because the truth is the truth. 

And the truth is, YES, people can really be so stupid.

One final thing: I have nothing against Jewish people.  I think Judaism is a rich religion, way of life, and culture.

I have everything against the discrimination and systemic apartheid against any people because they are different in some way.

@ Ariel, Thanks for your response.

I really do understand what Star and Sarah are trying to say, I do.  I can only imagine what it’s frustrating.  While the truth disputes your statement that Israel retaliaties inside of international law (bombings in Sudan last week, assassination in UAE with agents using false passports last year, White Phosphorus in Gaza), I do agree that Hamas does not follow the rule of law as well and again, I hope the cease fire holds.

You asked me what I think we should do: maybe a step forward with an acknowledgement of mistakes on both sides, like the reconciliation that happened in Rwanda after the civil war.  People need to understand more about what happened to the Jewish people and how it led to the Holocaust.  And Israelis need to acknowledge that they created their homeland by displacing the Palestinians.

 But that starts with people saying the truth.  We have to start there.  Starting from an emotion perspective does nothing.  We have to start and end with the truth.

It seems to be impossible to separate emotion from reason in this discussion, and I'm not only talking about this Glocals blog.  Even if it starts out in a cool cerebral way, it ends up with one of the following, or a variation:

You are an anti-Semite

The Palestinians are Terrorists

We're surrounded by Arabs who want us dead

Have you forgotten about the Holocaust?

etc.

This is because the current Israeli position cannot hold water in a rational discussion. It cannot be defended from a moral and historical perspective, and this pushes its defenders into desperate arguments and a frustrated raising of volume and rhetoric.  Anyone who is neutral and possesses a normal amount of human empathy will understand that the hate and desperation that drives people into commiting terrorist acts does not appear in a vacuum.  There are reasons for it. And until the defenders of Israel ask themselves honestly where this comes from, they will never be able to stop it. A combination of history and current policies are directly causing it.  We can only hope that one day an Israeli leader with enough of a long view and a generous testicular package comes along to stop the Jews from shooting themselves in the foot.

A little side note: The bad guys who are firing rockets into Israel from the Palestinian Territories are not a government, they are marginal individuals. Do the defenders of Israel really want to defend the Jewish State's actions by lowering it to the level of a couple of teenagers with a blowtorch, some gun powder and an internet connection?

Point 1. I said that Israel 'almost always'. I didn't say always. I'd love to see the country that could and does stay within the bounds of international law. However, they go above and beyond compared to what Hamas does on a regular basis in terms of military action. 

Point 2. You're brushing over 4,000 years of a Jewish presence in this disputed area. Bringing up the Holocaust is a bull move, and one that shows  your hand. Jews have always been in this area, and have staked their claim to it, so far back as the purchase of the cave in Hebron, purchased by Abraham as a grave for his wife Sarah. Thats in the book of Genesis. 

Point 3. The identity of 'Palestinian' is still in dispute among the people who identify themselves as such. Its a reactionary identity, and one that was made post-facto of the increase in Jews fleeing other nations - ones, including our own, America, which did not want them. Again, they were not the first Jews there, there were many there to begin with.

Point 4. Following Hamas' blatant, and usual, willful breach of international law last week when they bombed a school bus, which resulted in the serious injuries of a bus driver and school boy, they fired over 100 rockets from Gaza into Israel. And those 100 rockets? All in one day (on Saturday, the Shabbat, the holy day for Jews). 

Point 5. You claim you want to start from a place of truth, and I think thats a bunch of baloney. It really is. In an issue this complex, you think there is one truth? And furthermore, you think you have discovered, utterly independently, this place of truth? And that you have absolutely no emotion vested in this issue? Baloney. And I say that not to disrespect you, but because its a naive belief. 

Point 6. I'm making this point again because consistently on this thread, there appears to be a long standing belief that the Holocaust caused the making of Israel. When you say, 'People need to understand more about what happened to the Jewish people and how it led to the Holocaust', you leave me utterly and completely confused. How did what lead to the Holocaust? Who are these 'people' that need to understand? And understand what? 4,000 years of relentless persecution? Great thanks. Once you get a hold on that, let me know. Because I've been trying for quite some time, and I haven't been able to figure that out yet either.

Dear Todd,

I feel we are going to be here for ages, I do not dispute some of your facts and yes you seem to have more exact figures together than me. I am not a legal specialist of the Balfur declaration but I know that the land from the Jordan river to the mediterranean sea was given for the jewish people to establish their homeland. Now as you correctly said, terrorist or freedom fighter, everything is in the langugage, then you probably also knows that facts about history are not always reliable? In any case, there are reports of people being asked to leave the land of Israel at the time but other reports also saying that surrounding arab lands asked the people living there to leave the land as they were planning the war against Israel to smash it and in the end also wanted to get the land for themselves. 

One thing, you do not mention the different wars Israel had with surrounding countries, so no, it was not fine in the beginning - the 6 day-war, the lebanon war, the yom kippur war, etc. - all of this so that Israel could survive, otherwise it would have been smashed and all Jews would have been exterminated, because one fact is there, if Israel had no strong army, all Jews of the area (some also living there prior Israel's independance) would have been exterminated (and would still be now)

I do find the word appharteid really strong for what Israel stands for. I would really suggest you visit Israel and the two big hospitals of Israel Tel Hashomer in Tel Aviv and Hospital Hadassa in Jerusalem and look for appartheid there. Again you have Israeli arabs really well integrated in Israel and even in the knesset. However, you are right, there are some differences made but this is also found in other countries such as muslim countries (and there the differences of treatment are even stronger), so again why targeting only Israel (not you but more general statement)

It is very difficult for Israel to survive and defend itself, in particular when you have so many countries hating Israel and all surrounding them. I have seen documentaries on arabic channels where they profess their hatred for jewish people and Israel, saying that even if Israel give back ALL the land, they will anyway exterminate all jews - and these statements you can find on many different arabic programs largely broadcasted. The restriction on Gaza sounds hard I know but please bear in mind the rockets and terrorist attacks, smuggeling of weapons, what would you do if you had been in their place? - I know this is not fact maybe but this is real life.

Not only Jewish people but also Israelis have brought much to the world, for example the mobile phone was invented by Israelis engineer.

I consider myself far from stupid but free to you to think what you want. i.e. different does not mean stupid

Sarah

Dear Tony,

I think for people who have not lived there or who do not have family there, it may be easy to only stick to 'apparently known' facts. However, when you look at the situation, you can see that for most people there, sticking to facts is not so possible as we are not machine but humans.

I also suggest you go to Israel for visiting and come back after having met locals from both sides.

Regards,

Sarah

Ach, Tony, come on. No one here is losing their cool - we are still all discussing this calmly and rationally. 

What is happening here is some major simplification of a complex and incredibly convoluted historyh, and ironicaly, given that this thread, a total and complete absence of empathy for half the parties involved. 

 So, let me correct your first point of  'The bad guys who are firing rockets into Israel from the Palestinian Territories are not a government, they are marginal individuals.'

No, no they are not just a bunch of individuals. That is patently false. Hamas is the de facto and elected government of Gaza, and they are divided into factions. At any given point, one faction or another is shooting rockets and missiles into Israeli neighborhoods and homes, in defiant breach of customary international humanitarian law, and basic human rights agreements.

Yes, in fact, Israel is surrounded by Arab nations. This is true. And yes, each of these nations have loudly, consistently, and perdurably called for the violent demise of Israel, Israelis, Jewish peoples, and all Western influence. I don't understand how its possible to argue against this. Anti-Israeli rhetoric is part and parcel of Arab foreign policy speeches, dating from the moment of Israel's national conception, and climaxing through the mid-1990's. The Hamas Charter still calls for the death of Jews and Israelis. 

Incidentally, it wasn't just the Arabs that were carrying this banner. The Soviet Union single handedly funded and supplied the Egyptian military before, during, and after the Six Day War. In exchange for this aid, the Egyptian government ferociously persecuted their own people who were suspected of anti-Communist activities. In fact, this necessity of appeasing the Soviet was the only time that the Egyptians were forced to turn against their Arab neighbors, who were busy during  the 1970's and 1980's crushing communist pockets in their regimes (think Libya, Syria, and Iran).

It was largely due to the increased warmth between the Soviet Union and the US towards the late 1980's that led to the decrease in support of arms and aid to Egypt for its anti-Israeli activities. Which led to a pretty sticky turn of political face for Sadat, by the way.

So, yes, Arab nations around Israel have, and still, want to destroy the nation. And they aren't just funded through their own oil supplies. 

There is a reason why Israel recently developed an Iron Dome Defense system which will cost roughly $35,000-50,000 to repel every Qassam rocket (those, by the way, cost roughly $400 to make. You do the math. Its obviously not in Israel's interest to have developed this program, and yet they have). Israel has consistently pushed its capabilities to ensure a means of protecting its citizens - this is the exact inverse of the tactics of Hamas, et al. Hamas ensures it spends all its natural and social resources and capital to ensuring the ongoing terror of Israeli peoples, and to hell with the protection of their own citizens. 

If Hamas actually gave a damn for the lives of their children, then why would they stockpile weapons in homes, in schools, in hospitals (all of which, by the way, are supplied and built by Israeli aid and construction materials), and mosques? Under international law of proportionality, Israel has the right to strike these areas, provided the military advantage exceeds the level of damage, and that civilians, et al are not intentionally harmed.

Israel builds bomb shelters. Hamas builds bombs. Tell me again why its Israel that needs to stop fighting first? 

And by the way, regarding your comment about Israel needing a man (love the sexism implied there by the way, perhaps you've heard of a woman named Golda Meir?) with bigger balls -  I don't know what Israeli men you've seen, but its a basic fact  that Israeli testes are the biggest out there. Maybe its Texans you're thinking of?

Sarah explained that ''I am taking side and my side is for Israel and the jewish people!''

I am currently reading a book called 'I shall not hate' by Izzeldin Abuelaish. This is a beautiful and honest account of what it is like to live in a Palestinian refugee camp. It is written by a man with many Israeli friends and with advocates in the Israeli parliament. He has delivered many Israeli children (as a obstetrician who worked in Israel) and has helped many Israeli women with personal health issues (including female checkpoint guards). It is impossible to explain people like Izzeldin if we think in terms of 'sides'.

The concept of 'sides' only serves to erase the stories of beautiful Israelis & Palestinians: people like Isseldin and his one-time collegue, Dr. Marek Glezeman (chairman of the Hospital for Women and deputy director of the Rabin Medical Centre).

So here is a suggestion. Perhaps we could all suggest books to read, narratives written by Israelis and Palestinians from innocent families. As a group we could put together those personal accounts which testify to the horrors which innocents have endured. Only when every human victim is remembered, every family's pain acknowledged, can we even begin to think about indulging in an exercise as abstract as choosing between 'Isreal' or 'Palestine'. I am for a 'side' that transcends abstractions like 'Palestine' or 'Israel'. I am for human flesh and blood. I am for Izzeldin and Marek. I want to support people like them. I'm not interested in flags and sides. That's has been the language of the last 50+ years and it's got us precisely nowhere.

Here's my first suggestion to put the focus back on human beings, people like you and me. Any one have something to add to the list????

1. 'I shall not hate' by Izzeldin Abuelaish (available now from Off the Shelf in Bvd Georges Favon, CHF28.90).

Thank you to Sarah and everyone else for continuing to take the time to post on this topic. 

Hi Ariel,

Hmmm, I guess now I know how I should take your "basic facts":) Thanks for inserting a little levity in this otherwise heavy discussion.

I used the word "leader" on purpose (not "man"). I think it's universally understood that Golda, Maggie and Hillary (for example) possess(ed) some pretty huge allegorical spheres.

Seriously now folks (as Sheky Greene used to say), in all this ethnic biology my main point seems to have gotten lost. When in a difficult situation, rather than spending time and energy on questions of how you got there, it is always better to analyze your way towards a solution. Is the main Israeli concern stopping the violence and having a secure and peaceful future, or is it to solidify the hold on the present territory, fill in the areas between the settlements, and gain full control of Jerusalem? Both will not happen. Peace and security can only be achieved by a) dealing in a just way with the displaced Palestinians, or b) by visiting a genocide on the displaced Palestinians. The current Zionist policy of illegally expanding land holdings towards the realization of a Greater Israel will only guarantee continued hatred and conflict, war and killing.

At the risk of repeating myself, I'm going to repeat myself-and worse, I'm just going to cut and paste it:

"Anyone who is neutral and possesses a normal amount of human empathy will understand that the hate and desperation that drives people into committing terrorist acts does not appear in a vacuum. There are reasons for it. And until the defenders of Israel ask themselves honestly where this comes from, they will never be able to stop it."

Gosh, I am very happy other folks have gotten into this debate.

I could go back and search for the various sources I've quoted, cited, etc., but I won't.

Peace has to be made with enemies. It was done in South Africa as well as in Northern Ireland.  It is not perfect.

What some on both sides of this debate continually ignore is that there are strong forces for peace both within Israel and in the United States. Those forces are coalescing and are moving forward to change the debate.  I'll post one of these key articles again to re-emphasize the point:

Say what you want to about Hamas and other "facts on the ground." The former defense and intelligence heads know a great deal more about the situation than any of us here and THEY are prepared to carry on negotiations with Hamas.  Do you think you know more than Ami Ayalon, former Director of Shin Bet and former Commander-in-Chief of the Israeli Navy about how to reduce terrorism effectively?

http://jstreet.org/ami-ayalon-chicago/

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/former-israeli-defense-chiefs-draft-new-mideast-peace-plan-1.354278

If you are a US citizen, you can express your views to your Representative and Senators.  That's what this group and others are working to do, both in the United States and in Israel.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeremy-benami/the-right-side-of-history_b_821297.html

http://articles.boston.com/2011-03-15/bostonglobe/29349808_1_jewish-groups-pro-israel-israeli-government

http://jstreet.org/blog/j-street%E2%80%99s-ben-ami-to-knesset-don%E2%80%99t-push-away-your-friends/

Meanwhile, September approaches...

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/black-september-is-coming-to-jerusalem-1.355254

P.S. And I am very sorry to break it to some of my friends, but there are indeed  some rabbis who also preach hate.

http://www.tikkun.org/article.php/20091118093119448

The madness on BOTH sides has to end, whether it is equal or not. Look at what the South Africans had to endure in order to arrive at majority rule.

@TonyT.

"The current Zionist policy of illegally expanding land holdings towards the realization of a Greater Israel will only guarantee continued hatred and conflict, war and killing."

I would not equate Netanyahu's policys with Zionism! I think the term "Zionism" is so loaded as to be unhelpful and not at all useful. I think Netanyahu is basically an opportunist and unfortunately, there are those in the current government who are even further to the right than he.

Er... on the so-called Iron Dome, the US will, of course, be supplying a substantial amount of financial assistance for its deployment...

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4055093,00.html

Whenever Israel "says" it will pay for weapons system "itself" you can be certain some Member of Congress will insist that the US taxpayers pick up the tab. 

Meanwhile, here is a list of some of the budget cuts agreed to by the US Administration and Congress:

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/155069-white-house-details-cuts-made-in-budget-deal

I don't care about the Pentagon, but what about cuts to the Departments of Labor, Education and Health and Human Services?

Hi Translator,

US is also planning on giving money to Gaza/West Bank, if not done already.

Gaza/West Bank receive huge amounts of money from Europe and probably arab countries or at least weapons from arab countries. 

Where Israel try to survive and defend itself and may use the money for that as you seem to state, Gaza/West Bank use the money for corruption and attacks on Israel.

I am too passionate not to take side but at least I stated that I take side. Many people argue only to refer to facts and do not admit that they take side :-)

Anyway peace is a great vision - thanks

Sarah

Thanks Ariel for your great post

Sarah:

No, not all the Gaza/West Bank bank is used for corruption and attacks on Israel.Such a sweeping statement is both unhelpful and patently false.

Much of it goes to non-governmental organizations providing humanitarian assistance on the ground: roads, food, water, shelter, education.

I have included this link so you can see how the US spends its money in the region.  http://www.usaid.gov/locations/middle_east/countries/wbgaza//westbank-gaza.html

Here is a link detailing all the kinds of arms and weapony the US provides to Israel:

http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/israel050602.html

Over the years, US assistance to Israel has also had to be extremely carefully monitored to detect corruption and misuse of assistance, including transfer of US critically sensitive military technology to China.

There are also other forms of corruption taking place in the Israeli system.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/01/06/us-palestinians-israel-wikileaks-idUSTRE70531J20110106

But to sum it  up, no, it  is not tiny Israel against all the Arab nations. The United States is behind Israel. 

I object to this because our tax dollars could be used much more productively to save the lives of millions of children suffering from hunger, disease and lack of education around the world, not to mention in our own nation..

And, Sarah, as you have been intrepid enough to visit Israel, I would encourage you to visit Detroit, Michigan, my hometown.

The people there are every bit as worthy of US economic assistance; they simply do not have the political muscle to obtain it.

I fully accept and support Israel's right to exist. I believe it should and can do with a LOT less US military and economic assistance.

Perhaps the US has to have a second civil war before its poor are truly provided for.

@Sarah: Would you like to borrow my book? I promise you, you will love it. You can try but you won't find a hint of tribalism in it. It is truly edifying. And if anyone else would like to borrow it please let me know. Still waiting to hear back from anyone who has 'taken sides' regarding my request for a family narrative about innocents from either group (see my previous post). I know it is so much easier to be tribal than it is to see the humanity in everyone. But we can try, yes? Taking sides jeopardises our ability to connect with those good people who happen to be living on the 'wrong' side (American, Israeli, Palestinian, etc....). 

@Translator: God knows I'm not a religious man but when I first read about J-Street I felt born again! So satisfying to see the rich diversity of American Jewish political opinion finally get represented on national media and political platforms. Hurrah!

Israel had committed war crime atrocities in the Lebanon, it also justifies those as legitimate defence as well as blaming the other side for making them do it, like the claim that Hizbollah was purposefully using civilians as a human shield, leaving Israel no other choice but to bomb civilians. Seeing that the Israeli attack against Lebanon started with bombing Beirut airport, we should maybe suppose that runways are a preferred location for strategically placing human shields.

What is more outrageous than Israel's aggressive disregard for international law and human rights is that the rest of the world, or at least those holding the reigns of power, the so-called international community, acquiesce to the crimes committed. One of the reasons is that in the Western psyche, greatly assisted by Hollywood reminders, the Jews are the victims of the greatest crime in history, the Holocaust (albeit committed by Europeans, not Arabs), and Israel, their state, must hence be protected from any further abuse by its vicious and violent neighbours.

Since psychoanalysis and psychotherapy are sciences with Jewish roots, it would not be inappropriate to apply them in this instance by looking at the psychology of victimhood. If we put Israel and its leaders on the shrink's couch we will soon find that the state of Israel is condemned to permanent psychosis unless it stops claiming victim status in everything it does, and Israel's alleged friend, like the US and UK, better provide some useful counselling instead of encouraging its path to self-destruction.

A good summary of the victimhood syndrome can be found in Psychology of Victimhood by Dr Ofer Zur:

"In claiming the status of victim and by assigning all blame to others, a person can achieve moral superiority while simultaneously disowning any responsibility for one's behavior and its outcome. The victims 'merely' seek justice and fairness. If they become violent, it is only as a last resort, in self-defense. The victim stance is a powerful one. The victim is always morally right, neither responsible nor accountable, and forever entitled to sympathy."

and

"The victim's basic stance is that he or she:

What we essentially have in Israel then, is an unbalanced state of mind justifying regular outbursts of uncontrolled anger and violence with the claim to being the eternal victim and therefore never responsible for the consequences of its actions. It is frightening to think what the future holds for the world when such a state is in possession of most advanced weaponry, including a nuclear arsenal, with the tacit approval of those running the asylum, who think that feeding the patient's delusions is more convenient than having to put up with the tantrums induced by the initial withdrawal syndromes of any meaningful treatment programme.

In one of Chomsky's books he says when the pickpocket is caught with his hand in someone's pocket, he begins to shout "thief. thief".

Here is an excellent video of a talk by Robert Fisk on 'The Age of the Warrior' where among other things he describes the cowardliness of journalists who refuse to call a spade a spade

Thanks Felipe, great analysis. 

We don't have to go so far as to worry about Israel using its nuclear weapons, it's already dangerously out of control with its conventional weapons. And the US is the great enabler. Obama looked like he was going to bring some reason to bear on Israel, but ended up buckling under the pressure of Jewish lobbies.  So the enabling continues, no price for bad behavior is extracted, and as you pointed out, continues on its path towards its own self-destruction.

And it helps when God is on your side as the hilarious Python Terry Jones once wrote about a conversation between George and God: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/oct/22/usa.iraq1

On spades...I'm with Oscar Wilde who says any man who calls a spade a "spade" should be forced to use one.