Dear  Swiss,

I think you are right that people should voice their opinions, and foreigners should respect the rules of the country in which they live in, but Mr. swiss, respect goes two ways don't forget. As open and welcoming as you are to receiving money legal or not legal,you should also be as welcoming to other peoples choice of religion and beliiefs. That is my friend a true democracy.

i could not agree with u more. well said... lifes about being tolerant and not being dogmatic...

im no guest in your country..im swiss but a naturalised one thank god:-)

Ooooo let me tell you that I have many "real" Swiss friends and they are very choked with the votation not because of the Minaret but because of the wrong debate that is around it. You have voted no because of Khadafi, the Burqa issue...Nothing then to do with building a Minaret. The real debate is...Why are you so scared? About what? Why did it go to votation when it is against the constitution?...

Dear Helen,

The problem with direct democracy is that it makes Switzerland extremely vulnerable to populism.

Nobody had any problem with minarets until the populists of UDC thouth that it was an easy target for easy slogans.

By launching the referendum they made the case: if they won they would have gained an indeniable success. If they lost there would have been a lot of requests for building minarets as a reaction and they could have said "We told you".

The Swiss made a wrong decision. They followed the populists. They should have refused to go to vote thus stating that the question is not a question (as it wasn't).

Instead they didn't. People say that it was a mistake and once again you raise to tell that most people are guests here and we shouldn't feel allowed to criticise what's been decided by the Swiss.

I'm really sorry to say it so explicitly but by saying this you are being the anti-Swiss today.

Switzerland is a democracy based on the right of having and expressing one's own opinion. The right to vote goes hands in hands with the right to dissent and actually derives from it, since you can only vote consciously AFTER having confronted your opinions with others' and that process needs to be continuous, to grant that the legal process allows and follows the evolution of opinions.

This is part of the principles that MUST come before the popular will and must NOT be amendable by popular will, because those are the principles that make possible to express and implement the popular will itself.

Or do I need to remind you that both Mussolini and Hitler were elected by popular will?

Nowadays, that I know of, there is only one major politician that still claims that the popular vote is incontestable: Silvio Berlusconi, who claims that since he's been elected he cannot go under trial for anything and that by changing the law according to his private interest he is defending the popular will that put him in place.

I love you lots and I ask you please: Stop humiliating yourself by going on repeating this bullshit that the popular vote should be uncontestable. By saying that you are putting yourself against the basic principles of the Switzerland we both love.

After all nobody has been questioning the right to respect or not the law.

We are discussing what should be written in that law.

What differentiates western democracies from religious regimes is not their christian origins: it is the recognition of fundamental rights (among which freedom of religion).

I have no sympathy for any religion personally, but allowing (leaving the option) to build minarets would not have been surrendering to fundamentalists: forbidding the building of a specific type of religious building means giving up on some fundamental rights of a democracy.

So don't make the mistake to think that such a decision attacks religious fanatics: such a law attacks liberal democracy. It's a blow to us, not to them.

We don't need to discuss your personal opinion on the real subject of this topic, which has nothing to do with Minarets by the way, as  many of us are aware of the one note tune you play, from previous forums.

But just to pick you up on a couple of points:
How is it possible for you to point out the view of the whole Swiss people? What view, and on what subject?
Secondly, how can you say that unless a person understands the language something is initially discussed in, they cannot understand the topic? For this to hold true  in this example, everyone who speaks about what really goes on in Switzerland, must speak simultaneously in the 3 languages you mentioned. Or as actually happened  the German/French/Italian  was translated to Italian/French/German. Substitute English for one of those and it in no way changes the sense of it.

We have been down the road of Guests in Your Country( you own it, do you?) many times.Switzerland is a democratic  country that espouses the right to  free expression, so one would assume  that that  right was available to anyone and everyone and not just the select few people....Otherwise it would hardly be free would it?
So all I can suggest is that if you are not happy with the criticism you receive, then it's time to think again.

Dear All,

OMG, ...don't you guys read?

I am fully aware that I am repeating myself, I am not discussing my personal opinion here, so Kaki stop even assuming on how I voted!

The vote has absolutely nothing to do with religion; it's about Minaretes all over Switzerland.

My dear old friend Stef, please do not tell me what I should say or not say, after all I life in my own country.   (thanks for your interesting view)

Happy Wednesday everyone!

Kiss

Hein?! By YOU I meant Swiss my dear not you!!! U posted this topic u new u were going to have different opinions so please tell me why r u so angry now? What is the point if u cannot hear different opinion. Take a chill mate!!!!!

By the way dont be sure u r in your country, you should check ur backgrounds noone is a 100% "pure blood". thanks to mixte couple and else!!!!

Hi Swiss, I generally like this country but I don't consider myself a 'guest' here. Switzerland benefits from my being here, I benefit from my being here. If you rent out a room in your apartment to me, of course we need to follow rules, but I am not a 'guest' and the deference that follows from that word does not apply.

Stef wasn't telling you what to say, he was giving you his alternative viewpoint. In fact, you seem to be the saying that it's time for those of us who agree with 43% of the Swiss population that it's time for us to be quiet.

Exactly!!! He seems to have a real problem with foreigners living in his OWN country. Bless him!!!!! What was it again...? Stop critising Swiis cuisine or something. No really...Bless him!

Take a chill pill!!!

Dear Kaki,

You seem to be VERY unrespective to a person who is older than you and has been living all her life in Switerland.

Please don't forget that it's just a political question which doesn't take influence on our everyday life, so let's close this discussion.

Have a good day :)

Thank you SWISS for your wise opinion, but then ask yourself how can 43% of the population be so wrong? Dont you think something is fundamentaly flawed here?

The fact that other nationalities are working in your OWN country does not give you a right to call them whatever you want. We respect every body with their own diverse background thats what makes a country to be rich( of course not financially alone using ill gotten public money from Africa and other countries!).

By the way this is a suggestion to the Admin(Oded) so that he doesnt allow Chicken to give opinions because if you cant put your image here then we can as well debate with the wind!

Be tolerant that is the sure word.

O really?! First of all I did not check the profile of that person as it is not about her but about her post.

Secondly I dont see how!

Thirdly I think this person can defend herself right?! She does not need you as an advocate.

Please give your opinion about the post not about me.

So you think that politic do not influence our everyday life. Interesting!

Looks like its time for the admin to step in again...

Folks - this is supposed to be a discussion between civilized people, so lets try to keep it that way.  State your opinion, argue, debate... but no need to get personal and 'name names'.

Thanks, and looking forward to a continued interesting discussion.

Oded

oded, i know i should not do this after your last comment, however, just let me address this directly to gichana: your photo argument is a joke. it adds nothing to the discussion.
have a good afternoon.

Switzerland is a democratic country - completely true

The Swiss people have the right to vote and have said how they feel - partially true.  Over 50% of the Swiss citizens who voted were in favor of the initiative but around 40-45% were against...does this mean that the Swiss people have finally said how they feel?  Don't think so.  This means that 50% of the Swiss voters showed how racist or fearmongering posters can influence popular opinion.

Guests in a country have to respect rules and regulations - well, I don't consider myself a guest having lived here over 20 years and having a C permit but I agree with your general premise that persons living in a country should respect the country's rules and regulations (as should that country's citizens).  However, I fail to see how respect for rules and regulations means persons living in a country, be they temporary expats or long-term expats, should not be allowed to comment and have opinions on the local political climate...after all, the changes to laws impact all of us who live here, not just the Swiss citizens.

As far as needing to speak and/or understand French, Italian and German in order to be able to be considered capable of expressing an opinion...well, luckily for me I speak all three so have seen and read the opinions of Swiss citizens in the press (both for and against the vote results).  However, given that we are living in internet times and that the events which occur in one country are looked at by other countries, I have seen articles on this vote in UK, US, Spanish, Portuguese and even Norwegian papers (and yes, I speak all those languages as well)...

So, in conclusion, to the extent that opinions are voiced responsibly and without personal attacks I don't see why expats should be any less allowed to weigh in on Swiss issues than Swiss citizens. 

Thanks Summermind but i think  i will need to have a wintermind so that i can develop confidence with people who discuss behind the Chicken. Its not about anything but a sign of good faith, see what am saying?

I also suggested to Oded, and i think this will not be taken as the controversial vote in question.

if your personal view is not on discussion then whats the point of even wasting our time???:-)))

hey guys...

Ok done!!!!

Oh my! From what I've read on this topic the last week it  seems that many people ( or guests) in this country can't understand the term ' direct democracy'! 

Is it any wonder that they don't have an acting democractic system in their own country!? Sounds like they are just happy to be the sheep-les of this planet.

I am sure that because many of you don't speak the langages that you are completely missing the point about the vote. It wasn't just about minarets, many citizens of CH are currently not happy with their government, how disconnected they are from their people and how they are not addressing all to important issues in their country. Therefore, understandably they want these points targetted before they agree to or accept any more.

In my own opinion and from working with many nationalities, I see that people here have the freedom to practice whatever religion they like. Isn't that wonderful for them so why not be grateful for what you already have!?

The people have voted..Tolerate it, forget it and lets move on!

Have a nice day

Dear Onis,

Thanks for your post , let me just correct you in one thing: I've lived aborad for almost 20 years  (UK, Hong Kong, Israel and I even spent time in Esfahan /Iran).

To everyone else, intresting posts  

Thank you for all the mails, and text msg - just goes to show that not everyone is posting here... at least I don't stand alone

Just a thought, name Glocals seems rather irrelevant today, it should be SourExpats.ch

Oh my, my! another showdown between expats (overwhelming patronizing majority here) and locals (wonder why so many left the site disillusioned?)...

Personally I couldn't care less about this minaret thing since it is only a futile construction matter. I can't install solar panel on top of my house because my communal regulation says No. Period!  I have accepted to live in that commune. I am also free to move a few km to another commune if I disagree and want to have solar panels.

"Switzerland benefits from me being here" : lol the standard arrogant tune on my fellow expats... stop masturbating your ego folks. Sorry to shatter your illusions but our input in this country is at best marginally marginal. How much do we make? 6k, 7k monthly? our global impact is an anecdotical 0,00-something percent.

As one US-immigration officer reminded me once at LAX "you can't like it? next flight takes off in 30 minutes"...

Interesting topic!

I THINK WHO VOTES YES, ARE IN THE END DRIVEN BY FEAR. BEING FEAR IS NORMAL, BLAMELESS, BUT WHEN THE FEAR IS EXPLOITED, THEN WE SHOULD ALL BE ALAMRED.

Dear Cailindeas & Gentlman4er,

Thank you for the having the guts to speak up, you two said it all!

So now we can all get on with our lifes, wishing everyone a peaceful evening.

SWISS I really just don't understand the people who sound so bitter towards the voters. It kind of scares me as it shows they probably couldn't handle living in a real democracy themselves.

In the end 'YES' was the right decision because its what the majority of people voted.

IF the majority had voted 'NO' it would have been the right decision( because it would have been what most had voted)

Thats what 'DEMOCRACY' is!

The peoples voice here is what counts and thankfully most Swiss can deal with and accept the outcome of any voting whatever way it swings,thats why this system works here.

Even better, if Swiss muslims want to start an initiative to allow the building of minarets, then they are also FREE to... thats the beauty of DEMOCRACY!!

POWER TO THE PEOPLE!

So the vote "wasn't just about minarets". OK, that is interesting, so why should people's anger at the government be transformed into anti-islamic laws? It doesn't make sense, I'm sorry.Maybe the voter should be more engaged and not just vote for the List of one party, if it means inadvertently voting for the banning of minarets, in among the voting for other matters that they are actually angry about.

Also, the argument about language is facile in the extreme. You are basically telling people that they are too stupid to understand Swiss politics. Which is severely patronising. Many foreign-language news agencies have been perfectly capable of covering the events, and it seems a little disingenuous to suggest that they are unable to translate things properly.

Of course the vote hasn't directly impaired the freedom of muslims to practise their religion, but I think it is impossible to rationally argue that it is not a discriminatory measure.

The minaret is a structure, local authorities already have the right to permit or not permit new constructions, as they see fit. If a mianret is not an appropriate structure for a give location, permission should nto be granted for oen to be built, that is very simple. To impose an outright ban on a structure is unnecessary, especially given the difficulty associate dwith accurately defining what a minaret is. If the definition includes a religious aspect (e.g. "a minaret is a tower attached to a mosque, a mosque being a building used for Muslim worship") then it is outright discrimination. Which is ironic for the country that hosts the European Court of Human Rights.

We need, also, to be careful about slinging mud about "other people's democracies"- given that tehre are many countries where a slim majority of voters would want to see capital and corporal punishment brought back, it's sometimes positive that government doesn't always cede to the will of the majority. If we are happy for governments to step in to prevent the return of barbaric practises, we should, maybe, consider that it could be reasonable in the case of discrimination.

Of course, I am sure that you can argue that it's not discrimination, it is just a building, etc. But, honestly? A law that banned the erection of all towers for religious purposes would have been fair. Thsi doesn't seem to be.

Agree with Perplexis. The system has indeed it's positive points, but it's lead to a situation where the majority has been encouraged to bully and scapegoat a minority based on ignorant stereotyping. The minority in this system is basically helpless.

What I am wondering is where was the left, centre and, let's face it, moderate right campaign in all of this? I saw a lot of 'Ja' posters but there are usually 'Nein' posters as well around referendum time. This time I didn't spot any.

This comment I find slightly annoying. However like most ill thought out comments it is easy to refute.

"Switzerland benefits from me being here" : lol the standard arrogant tune on my fellow expats... stop masturbating your ego folks. Sorry to shatter your illusions but our input in this country is at best marginally marginal. How much do we make? 6k, 7k monthly? our global impact is an anecdotical 0,00-something percent."

Ok I read that you are a banker, so I assume you have a basic grasp of economics.

Unless there are some expats out there subsisting off state benefits, it would be safe to say that the majority of us contribute directly through taxes, and indirectly through rent, purchase of goods and services to the Swiss economy, and that this has a positive net  financial input to Switzerland. Therefore Switzerland benefits from expats being here. The size of the input is irrelevent as long as it is a positive. So the rest of your comment is totally irrelevent.

Secondly you mention that this forum has an "overwhelming patronising majority" who

use the "standard arrogant tune" of "Switzerland benefits from my being here"
Actually that was mentioned by one person out of 31 posts. That is about 3%. Hardly a majority even in my own country"s non democratic system(As Cailindias tells me the democracy of my country is)

Finally on the subject of patronising: ( Definition:(used of behavior or attitude) characteristic of those who treat others with condescension)
The three most patronising statements here are:

"I feel it's about time to point out the view of the Swiss people; I have no clue or idea of how many of you actually speak either French, German or Italian. Would you have had the chance to follow what really goes on in Switzerland, you might would have a different view."

"I am sure that because many of you don't speak the langages that you are completely missing the point about the vote. It wasn't just about minarets, many citizens of CH are currently not happy with their government, how disconnected they are from their people and how they are not addressing all to important issues in their country. Therefore, understandably they want these points targetted before they agree to or accept any more."

And finally; the post that starts with "Just a thought, name Glocals seems rather irrelevant today, it should be SourExpats.ch......."

Is that a coincidence?

have a nice evening

 Hardly a majority even in my own country"s non democratic system(As Cailindias tells me the democracy of my country is)

''The Lisbon Treaty is based on the European Constitution, which started at a summit in Brussels in December 2001.

Despite the scale of the changes the treaty makes, the British people have never been directly consulted on the document, which was ratified in a Commons vote and signed by Mr Brown in 2007.

The British people have never even voted once, and we will not let people forget whose responsibility that is."

William Hague, the shadow foreign secretary, said it was "a bad day for British democracy.''

 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/6496336/Lisbon-Treaty-more-of-Britains-powers-surrendered-to-Brussels.html

Of course you're democractic..how did I ever doubt it!

Oh dear....

so your precis of British democracy boils down to your most recent memory of something that might be thought of as non democratic?

As far as I am aware in most democratic countries, the democracy lies in the ability to vote on a choice of government every few years. By this method a mandate is given to that government to take decisions, even if at the time of that descision it might be unpopular

Obviously Switzerland has a different system.

But both systems don't seem to have a process of referendum, that if the answer is not satisfactory to the ruling elite, that there is a process such that the elite can ask for another referendum until they get the answer they desire

Does that remind you of any particular county?

I used to be a professional poker player.and found the psychology of why people continue to bet on losing hands was a very intersting subject.....

people swiss or no swiss...go chill go vent!:-) and let the people of switzerland think they have a perfect democracy...its good to dream from time 2 time....

"Switzerland benefits from me being here"

If you are interested in taking this quote in context, where I am saying that I view my relationship with Switzerland as reciprocally beneficial, rather than one where I am condescended to as a 'guest', then please read my orignal post, it's on the first page.

Copy from my e-mail account: ... can not find it here

Gentlman4evr posted the below reply to the forum thread ‘Re: Time to accept the vote from the Swiss people...':

Oh Bruce, Tony, wooooo that patronizing tone chills my spine lol... Hey why don't you put a sock in it and buy yourself a life? Again, if you can't live with locals and their choices, EasyJet has 5 flights daily to UK... This forum has become just an open tribune for a handful of sour and bitter brit expats that apparently were too lousy to get themselves a job in UK lol

Parazite: def. An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host...

this post is everything, except frm nice and respectful.has someone missed the message of these nice angels sent by I don't know who (Mohamed or jesus, etc...)?I can translate in french or german if ne wish.

Firstly, "parasite" not "parazite".

Secondly, how are expats considered parasites?  Do they not pay rent, taxes, patronise local establishments thereby contributing to the local economy? 

Lastly, most companies tend to send their more competent employees overseas...

I would guess that Oded removed the post. Whether on the grounds of it being offensive I really do not know or care.However it is not hard to work out the reason you chose to repost it, and since you did I will lump you in with our friendly swiss banker.
The problem is that whilst people spend some time and trouble to think out arguements carefully and check facts and staistics, some people just think throwing some mud randomly will make it stick. I notice neither you not Mr teenage text seem capable of refuting any cogent points made in the above discusson, but instead chooose words like sour, bitter, lousy almost in a random fashion.
I do not understand what the limited defintion of a Parasite really has to do with anything. It is just a definition .If one could then go on to show that foreign people inSwitzerland were actually a drain on Swiss financial resources there might be some point to it.But since one can''t then it really becomes rather pathetic.... or even bitter dare I say
Just too illustrate a point. Easyjet has 7 flights a day( not 5) at the moment to the UK( more in the ski season) Our banker friend seems to have lost 30% of the total without even knowing it. So he must truly be a banker.A complete and utter banker......

you know people: two years ago we had a discussion in the forum about white and black sheeps. and that one got also pretty out of hand.

i think to end the crazy debate nir or oded said: c'mon guys, this forum is not the right place for it any more. whoever wants to discuss the subject further in a serious and objective way can meet offline in a bar or restaurant.

Totally agree with you summermind,  but also remember some! seem to have the right to say anything here and others get deleted... thats my reason for copying the post!

I notice neither you not Mr teenage text seem capable of refuting any cogent points made in the above discusson, but instead chooose words like sour, bitter, lousy almost in a random fashion.

Bruce, thank you all "your kind words," either I am missing again something, but I can NOT find any of these words on any of my posts.

Happy Friday and happy weekend everyone!

A Charter for Compassion

A call to bring the world together...

http://charterforcompassion.org/

The principle of compassion lies at the heart of all religious, ethical and spiritual traditions, calling us always to treat all others as we wish to be treated ourselves. Compassion impels us to work tirelessly to alleviate the suffering of our fellow creatures, to dethrone ourselves from the centre of our world and put another there, and to honour the inviolable sanctity of every single human being, treating everybody, without exception, with absolute justice, equity and respect.

It is also necessary in both public and private life to refrain consistently and empathically from inflicting pain. To act or speak violently out of spite, chauvinism, or self-interest, to impoverish, exploit or deny basic rights to anybody, and to incite hatred by denigrating others-even our enemies-is a denial of our common humanity. We acknowledge that we have failed to live compassionately and that some have even increased the sum of human misery in the name of religion.

We therefore call upon all men and women ~ to restore compassion to the centre of morality and religion ~ to return to the ancient principle that any interpretation of scripture that breeds violence, hatred or disdain is illegitimate ~ to ensure that youth are given accurate and respectful information about other traditions, religions and cultures ~ to encourage a positive appreciation of cultural and religious diversity ~ to cultivate an informed empathy with the suffering of all human beings-even those regarded as enemies.

We urgently need to make compassion a clear, luminous and dynamic force in our polarized world. Rooted in a principled determination to transcend selfishness, compassion can break down political, dogmatic, ideological and religious boundaries. Born of our deep interdependence, compassion is essential to human relationships and to a fulfilled humanity. It is the path to enlightenment, and indispensible to the creation of a just economy and a peaceful global community.

http://charterforcompassion.org/

Yes yes, us big bad admins are playing favorites again and deleting some posts while letting others say what they like.  So unfair...

I'll try to make this as simple as possible:

If you can't state your opinion without using words/phrazes like: Put a sock in it, get a life, parasite, not good enough to get a job in your own country... then please don't post anything.

Oded

Bruce - I'm hoping Oded removed the post because I reported it, advising that it was neither "in the spirit of glocals" or "Gentlemanly" to sling mud (especially as our fellow Swiss Residents refer to our repeatedly as "guests" - a bizarre slant on hospitality).

BTW - if you have a qwerty keyboard, you'll find the letter you're looking for next to the Q  

West vs. East

Both sides of intolerance

I remember this thread quite well and it wasn't the first one...

Those/these kinds of thread are usually quite enjoyable because they mark the racists and the imbeciles for who they are. Publicly. And since there is no edit function they can't go back and retract their bullshit (I approve very strongly of the lack of edit). For the same reason I frequently find myself wishing that admins wouldn't whip posts out of the threads, as generally all they serve to do is expose the poster for the buffoon they are.

Lets take a break and look at this Chinese posters, very lovely!

Swiss you said the following.

"Dear Cailindeas & Gentlman4er,

Thank you for the having the guts to speak up, you two said it all! Wink"

Guilty by association I think its called.....

Well, we had today an official statement from our « Bundesratspräsident, President of the Federal Councilation, Hans-Rudolf Merz: " We do not apologize anywhere in the world for the outcome of the vote..."

Hopefully my final words on this discussion: My new years resolution 2 years ago, run a marathon - I've done a few ever since...

So maybe I should look @ a life in Swiss politics...after all it's never too late to start something new.

Or even better, Bruce and Tony you would like this one: as Bruce stated that there are lots of flights to the UK, I still have a home in Richmond/Surrey and I'm the holder of a UK passport...British politics? No worries guys, I leave it to you.

swiss and calindeas, do you really mean that the outcome of this referendum shouldn't be analysed and discussed just because it is 'the will of the swiss people' and their will should be respected? do you always argue in this way about the outcome of an election regardless of what the consequences might be? if not, why should this be an exception?

you seem to think that the result of this referendum is something that concerns only switzerland and the swiss, but it's not quite that simple. the swiss minaret ban is something that has been a hot topic of debate in the media all across europe (well, in the muslim world as well i suppose - not least libya). switzerland is a european democracy just like any other, and if this can happen here, then why not all over europe?

most western countries have, as far as i know, openly condemned the result.right wing extremist parties all over europe are of course thrilled, and the people's party in denmark, for example, now want to have a similar referendum in their own country. so...do you see how this is actually other people's business as well?

i for one think that it's extremely important to understand what it was that made so many swiss citizens vote for a minaret ban. was it fear, and in that case, what can be done to prevent this fear from growing? islamophobia is a widespread problem all over europe, and it's something we need to do something about. if we remain quiet and 'respect the will of the people' every time something like this happens, then who knows where we'll end up.

I find this whole discussion has developed into idle talk.
SWISS commenced the forum to say that it's time to accept the peoples vote. But it's still quite obvious that many of you can't but actually I think its just 'democracy' you can't grasp!

My final endeavour.
If people do not rule their country and take care of making important decisions who should then? Politicians?

But IF people are capable of electing ther politicians in the first place,then why are they considered not capable of making additional important decisions on their country?! Have aliens abducted their brains in the meantime?!

Moreso, if the people shouldn't be in charge of defining the content of the constitutional law, who should?

Then once it's decided, is that it? should it be set in stone?
Is it right that the people are incapacitated to amend it for evermore?

IMO, the Swiss system is the only logical and suitable system because in a real democracy there can't be any other source of government authority except the people!! If you trust your elite to make every important decision for you then watch your country crumble. And we don't have to look too far for that!

And some may argue:
                           '' But the people could make a wrong decision(s)''
True. No doubt they could.

But so could the politicians and the justice and every other institution involved. Just to provide 1 e.g., the admirable countries still fighting their losing wars...ever have a vote on that 'important decision' or feel any 'guilt by association'

At the end of the day who ''pays the cost'' of everything that happens in a country and for every wrong decision made in a country? Your politicians..I think not!

SWISS..why not give it a shot?!from what I've read of you you'd be more pro-active and committed to your people than some of your current 'representatives'

Peace and happy weekend

Seems we make bigger deal then what really will happen in switzerland. so what about the vote, the Minerets will stay, and will not be foreced to be taken down. Second, the european union and United nations will demand the Swiss accept there already agreed , freedom of religion. Infact the votation will hurt them financially, as many muslim countries will look at the vote as insulting. so they will find other jurisdictions for there corporate and private wealth management.

So maybe it was a statement, but nothing will happen. Once the get the current agreements reintroduced that they cant turn back or will be very bad for there reputation.

Reputation is the bedrock of the swiss economy, and if they forgotten this, then its there mistake.

After all the silly point scoring on this forum I think  the most important comment has just come to light.

"Reputation is the bedrock of the swiss economy, and if they forgotten this, then its there mistake."

Whether one is thinking about Minarets, Democracy. The Swiss Economy, Morality....this little statement is so loaded with meaning............ it's wonderful

Swiss, I completely disagree with you. You confuse two things : not accepting the result of a vote and criticizing it.

Not accepting it would be preventing its implementation, like building a minaret by force. That would be refusing democracy. As far as I know, nobody suggested it.

Criticizing it is the right of anybody, swiss or not, muslim or not. You may be better informed if understand French, German or Italian, but if not, you are still entitled to your less informed opinion.

Personnaly, I voted against the ban and even it had been accepted by 99% of the voters, I would still think that it is a stupid discriminating counter productive decision, and have the right to say it aloud.

I was sitting on the train yesterday and there were these two schoolkids in the group of seats next to mine. I guess they had just come out of a lesson on world affairs or whatever they learn in school nowadays. I didn't quite hear everything, but the first kid said that, while there seemed to be convincing evidence that the planet was warming up, there was no evidence that the change was forced by man, and therefore there was no need to alter the way we behave. The second kid came back immediately by saying that that may well be true, but in a case where we only have one system in which to test this hypothesis -- the system in which we all depend -- how could we dare to take that risk? The only way we would ever get conclusive proof is to wait a hundred years, by which time we would be able to say conclusively one way or the other. But should the result be negative, the damage would be irreparable, and we would have lost our single chance to fix it. We would be, for want of a better word, fucked (12 year-old use such filthy language). Thus, despite the fact that proof is pending, severe action needs to be taken now.

I remember thinking that the argument was very well thought out for a 12 year-old. Not bad. He had grasped pretty well a problem that existed far outside of himself and followed it through well. The first kid just paused and looked back at the second one, before screwing up his face and delivering his repost: SHUUDDDUP!!!

Here is a whiteboard with a useful box drawn in the middle:

Why all this fuss about the decision to prohibit the construction of minarets in Switzerland. There are many churches in Christian countries without a bell tower and there are many mosques in Muslim countries without a minaret.

There is an old proverb saying "In Rome do as the Romans do." Or in short, respect the customs and traditions where you go. So if the Swiss do not want to have minarets in Switzerland that is their decision.

Now, if the Muslims really feel for towers in Switzerland, then the simple solution is to construct them following the Swiss traditional design and add a chime of bells ‘glockenspiel' - chiming "Allah Akbar"......

And everybody will be happy.

Hi Oded!

As you have siad aready, many times....

"Be good or be gone"

Cheers

My two sisters-in-law were both married to airline pilots, who both secured jobs flying for sheikhs in Saudi Arabia. Both girls were forced to wear burquas each time they went out, were not allowed to drive, no alcohol of course. They gladly submitted to the rules because they were guests in SA and had to abide by that country's regulations. Natch. Switzerland is a Christian country. Other religions are made welcome but only up to a point, which is conversely the case in Muslim countries no doubt. The Swiss have the right to vote in a referendum on whatever the topic = and very often do. Those who do not agree with their decision are free to leave - but then, they probably wouldn't because they are all earning such terrific salaries and paying such low taxes, added to a fantastic standard of living. Please note, that I do not live in Switzerland but have many Swiss friends who feel it is anathema to them for other nationalities to criticise their vote.

Bustan, well sure I agree with democracy but as long as you respect your already agreed commitments.

And that includes respect the freedom of religion and your 500,000 muslim citizens. Further to respect the important clients from Muslim world.

How do you mix the votation and what I said with building minarets by force and refusing democracy? The vote has taken away the Rights of the muslim.

If we Minerets, then lets take away all the Crosses down, the Synagoges Star of david, Masonic lodges, etc.

About me better informed? So your more infomed because your Swiss? And you assumed incorrectly about my understanding of French. As I read the votation material in French, and I fully understood my vote.

Finally this tread was to 'Accept the vote' but this is a loaded statement and demands our critique and comments.

Shut up or leave ! Just like in Saoudi Arabia ! Oh, Sheila, what a nice model, and what a nice open society you want us to live in ! It sounds like a dream of openness and tolerance ! What a shame swiss constitution doesn't allow it, with its old fashionned protection of the freedom of speech ! (but I'm sure UDC will soon solve the problem with a new initiative)

Question : I am a swiss citizen, have no other citizenship and still want to criticize the ban. Where should I leave for ?

I don't know why this didn't occur to me before, but the sometimes riotously funny spEak You're bRanes has a post dedicated to this issue. Of course it's not to be taken seriously since none of the contributers actually speak Swiss, but basically, yeah, if you like Islam so much, why don't you go and live there &c &c.

@Justdoit, I think you completely misunderstood my post. You sound as if I had said the opposite of what I actually wrote. Read it again !

Bustan_A:

Where should I leave for ?

Well, initailly I just wanted to flippantly write "Saudi Arabia" and leave it at that, but the question does throw up the issue of scale. Sure, you know this, but the Canton of Geneva, along with Vaud, Neuchatel, and Basel-City, voted NO to the ban (which correlates very nicely with the geographic politicisation of Switzerland). So really Bustan, you should stay exactly where you are; it's the Yes voters that should move to parts of the country where their book-burning opinions and white robes will be better tolerated.

Well, if you go that way, Hayes, you problably know that all the main cities voted «no» and it's towns and the country that tipped the scale. Makes things a bit more complicated...

More seriously, Hayes, even if we agree that the ban is disaster, I'm not ease with last post.I think one should feel absolutely free to attack ideas, never people.

OK, sorry. I thought it would have been clear that parody was the intention -- drawing a Nazi/KKK parallel was so far past the mark I hoped it was apparent -- not actually an attack on people. Rather a play on the way boundaries are drawn, and how definitions are applied; here re: democracy.

This is so ridiculous, Swiss are conservative, besides who wants this noise of the Minarettes, even in the train there are quite areas. I'm Swiss I embrace the Islam culture, but I'm not share it. It's our country, our opinion and this does not mean something bad. Period!

«Swiss are conservative». Interesting, since this country allows the cantons to distribute heroin to addicts, and allows NGOs to help sick people to commit suicide. By the token, would say that Scots are stingy, Italians lazy and Africans horny ?

That's what the democratic votes says, not me. We do distribute them metado, in order to avoid them to go and commit crimes, there is a therapy which they follow. Go and see the stats, drugs crimes have decrease-

As for your generic statement, it's their stereotype you are quoting. It's ridiculous!

I completely agree that swiss drugs policy is a good one and I voted for it. The fact is, it doesn't fit the image of a conservative people. As for the clichés, I totally reject them, but why should you support when when it comes to swiss people (that you tag as conservative) and reject when it comes other people ?

Iich bi Aenglaenderii und rede Schwiidertuusch [Zuerituusch]

Je suis Anglaise et je parle Francais-Federale [septante, nenante] etc.

Therefore, there are a very few of us who do speak Swiss, and are proud of it.

Call me at home if you don't believe it!

I'm grounded to say that the majority of Swiss are conservative, over 70% of this country has lives in this area. I'm well aware of how my people think and what rules the political agenda. Like it or not, that's how Switzerland ticks. See the federal consils, the mayority come from conservative parties, this is not a coincidence and specially not in this direct democratic system.

Your stereotypes, are totally negative and ridiculous. My reflection mirrors the reality. I strongly recommend going for a time to Zürich, learn more about the culture you obviously dislike. Build a bridge over the Röstigraben.

@ Sheila You speak zuritutsch, federal french, and maybe latin and tagalog, so what ? I was not disagreeing your language skills, but with your ideas.

@ Gatafunk :A short rethoric lesson: irony has many faces. One of them is taking an argument of your opponent and taking it to its limits to show its absurdity. That's what I tried to do with your « Swiss are conservative » stuff. Why should ready-made ideas be acceptable when it comes to one people and not to the others ? (My answer is : they should never be accepted)
Btw I still don't understand what you mean by get over the röstigraben and going to Zurich ? The majority of the voters of the city (as opposed to the canton) voted against the ban, like me, and like people of Basel City and Bern City...

@ Bustan, just broaden your horizon, by living in a Swiss German canton, must not be Zürich by the way, experience might touch this strongy revolutionary edge you've got. I guess you are better off if you would understand you own folk instead of negating what's a reality: the mayority of Swiss are conservative,lol! Voting against the Minarettes is a strong evidence of a conservative attitude. Swiss-German are the mayority in this country, and that's what the Swiss French just frustrates, because under democracy, is the mayority who makes its votes rule. Just adhere to the most intelligent crowd!

Swiss:

I'm with Bustan's view here.

We accept the vote (you don't see us demonstrating in the street trying to overturn it). But accepting the vote doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss it, and even criticize it (cos a discussion has to have 2 sides). 

Sounds a bit extreme to suggest people shouldn't even discuss certain topics, and to suggest people should consider leaving CH cos they want to discuss certain things...

What think?

Nir

I still don't understand. We both loath the ugly ban and still argue. What don't we smile to each other and unite against the ideas we both disagree with ?

Bustan, Gata:

I'm smiling at both of you (especially at Gata).

Not at me??????????????????????????????????????????????????

How sad you make me !!!

Yaiiks, I'm sorry everyone, I posted a reply on this forum thinking that the discussion was just starting, and I didn't realize that it's already gone on for 4 web pages and 80 posts...so I didn't mean to open it all up again. Sorry. 

Bustan: if you looked like Gata, you'd get the smile...(-: It's nothing personal, it's just a looks thing...

I'm more shocked by people attitude toward Switzerland. There is always a point

to find to attack my country (bank secrets, blabla). That's stupid and jealousy. I respect other people religions . Switzerland is known to be a quiet country. We welcome people but won't change our discret habits. Switzerland has always worked in a certain way (bank industry, neutral country) and neutral is a good thing that helped all the countries in war (but now they forget this and judge us !

This vote does not prevent nobody to pray and go to the mosquee ! So why do all of this ? why seeing racism when there is no ? Why is it racist not wanting to be waken up at 5 am in the morning in our country ? cause in Dubai you are ! I don't want to know what time start the prayers of my neighbour ! In Switzerland we just want peace, do you think that people will be peaceful to be waken at 5 ? and some say they won't be someone who sings in the minaret. Ok so why do you need a Minaret if it's empty ? Why not building appartments there are not enough for everybody here ?

All the countries that react bad are more racists than here, they even are not real democracy ! We are free to do what we want in our countries and thank God it's a direct democracy, cause as half french, i'm tired to see politics decision made by old politics stupid guy in France, i want to give my opinion.

Many others countries would have voted same and even worse than Switzerland (Germany, Italia, France)... so again it's free attack against Switzerland !

By the way for the swiss ashamed...well there is a sad lack of patriotism that's sad, why not being patriot ? (but not nationalist no extrem, please) ! I know some friends in Russia would be glad to exchange the place of people complaining in Switzerland...yes why not exchanging ? so the one who complains will see if others countries like Russie are so better so more democratic !

I joined this forum because the "other" forum was becoming at best petulant and patronising, at worst just like this thread has sadly become. Seems to bring out the worst in some people.

Whether you all like it or not, the population of Switzerland has voted, their referundum has been accepted and we all have to get on with their decision, after all, it is their country.

Our family was incredibly unhappy in a country which I shall not mention, ergo there were two options, stay and complain [and believe me, there was a great deal to complain about - far more than in Switzerland] or leave. We left. Best thing we ever did in retrospect.

well, tsatsa, if you'd done your research before you formed your opinion about the minarets, you'd have known that they wouldn't have been allowed to call for prayer anyway, because of Switzerland’s noise abatement laws. so you can bin your argument about disturbing noise right away.they would have been far quieter than church towers.

i don't think that a law that bans a certain type of building just because it belongs to a certain religion sounds very democratic. in a democracy, everyone should have the right to apply for building permit and then go through the same procedures before their application is either approved or denied. so there is obviously a flaw in the swiss democracy since what is ok for some is not ok for others.

"so there is obviously a flaw in the swiss democracy since what is ok for some is not ok for others."

Well, that is what a democracy is about - a rule by the majority opinion. And we see that daily how a narrow majority wins an election or a parlamentary vote, repeatedly around the world. And many times with very narrow margins e.g. 50.5% - 49.5%.

And all so called democracies are some sort of parlamentarian democracies that just apply democracy at the time of elections. And in between the elections are totalitarian states ruled by politicians in distance from the population. And if there are referendums they are only advisory and not legally directive.

However, Switzerland is the only state today with direct democracy and legally directive referendums. Meaning that the population can continously control the decisions made by the politicians, and at any time have their majority opinion obeyed. And as in a true democracy anyone has the full right to leave the country whem so wishing.

The time comes upon every public man when it is best for him to keep his lips closed.
Abraham Lincoln

Happy Monday everyone!

What a beauty!!!!!! Miss France 2010 called Malika...People against the Minarets and else are very disappointed in France...

Yes Tsatsa..it's what they refer to as 'Swiss bashing' but look, some people will always find a reason to moan so just let them, they have every right to...whatever makes them feel better.

At least for them this forum is a sort of 'freedom of speech' platform, and being frank, it gives them more liberty to speak out than what they're granted in their own countries.  

In fact, I've noticed that many of the contributors hail from kingdoms where the best example of democracy they have is when they get to vote on X-FACTOR! YAY..lucky them eh! So the green- eyed monster is probably a big factor in their whinging!

In the wise words of a cool band  'Let it be'

Hands up anyone who sees the irony in someone starting a thread in a discussion forum in order to tell everyone not to discuss something.

There is no point to add anything else, as some people will never understand our values or our democracy. Period!

Tsatsa:

Come on, you don't really believe this vote was about noise pollution, do you? 

Swiss / Cailindias:

1. This is NOT an attack on you personally or on CH, it's just an exchange of opinions.

2. I ain't got a problem with the Swiss voting system. Infact, I think it's the closest one could get to a true direct democracy, and that's great. 

3. I think the minaret vote outcome is democratic. Democracy is 'power to the people', and if the people speak on a certain issue - via a national poll - then that's true democracy in action.

4. However, the fact that Swiss people decided to outlaw something because it's associated with a certain minority religion, scares me. It scares me because once it starts going down that road, you can't tell where it stops, and what will be banned next...

5. I'm far from being a legal expert, but it strikes me as a potential good idea if we (we=the folks living in CH) had something like a Constitution, which 'locks' into place several key values that are not up for vote: equality, freedoms of speech / religion, etc. 

What y'all think?

Nir

Hi Nir O,

Thats ok, no offence taken.

Personally I also think it was pityful that it had to come to this...but as I stated in a previous post I really don't feel the ban was an outright attack on the Swiss Muslim community. Of course it illustrates a degree of prejudice that they aren't allowed to construct their buildings and that Christians still can ( but perhaps they will be banned soon too..or better still just religion in general!)

The people here aren't asking for Muslims to be removed from the country or to stop practicing their faith and thats why I truly believe it was more a cry of help to the Swiss government than an anti-Muslim demo.

I don't want to go into details here but I will give you one example. I have some Swiss friends who like myself are teachers and they are currently very unhappy, even  distressed with the state of their government and how are they managing or should I say 'ignoring' certain important issues on integration in schools/ in the country. Teaching in general  is a stressful job but when I hear their stories I feel that theirs is an enormous challenge and one, that as a teacher you shouldn't have to face every day when you have 25-30 students in your class, a wide range of abilities/ disabilities and curriculum to get through.  I also know the frustration of parents with children in public schools here and how they feel that lack of integration is getting out of control.

Nir, you said :''It scares me because once it goes down that road you can't tell where it stops and what will be banned next'' . True.

But speaking for my friends they say ' 'It scares me because once they go down that road you can't tell where it stops and what will be permitted next''.

They want cultural/integration issues tackled NOW before they escalate further and putting myself in their shoes I fully empathise with this.  I've encountered cultural problems in most schools I've taught in, and unless they are challenged immediately and efficiently, they have a way of developing rapidly..and more often than not with a negative outcome.

I'm only speaking for the teachers and parents I know but perhaps this is also a sad reflection of how Swiss society is feeling..because from experience what happens in a classroom is usually a close correlation of what is happening at home and on the street too.

So perhaps this 'Yes' to the ban or 'No' to minarets could be interpreted as '' NO more YES until you fix our current problems''.

And I'm sure I will get a red card or two for what I've just written but I'm just speaking from experience and thats all I know...if even!

And now I'm really finished with this topic.

Thats the way things are being done here in Switzerland. We chose to live here so we might as well accept them. Im not saying that the ban is right or wrong. Thats not the point. The point is that the people who voted are the ones that care about this and have the right to vote (mainly because they are Swiss). Our (foreign) opinion wont change anything.

Yo Maria, 

We accept the system. But that doesn't mean we can't / shouldn't debate some of the outcomes. Let's look at it as 'lobbying'...(-:

Nir

I agree to what is stated by Nir about core values (underlying principles)those should be protected and should not be overriden by such referendums.

In my home country (Hungary) we also have a Constitutional Court that is protecting these core values ithose are part of the our constitution.

In case a referendum would be against these core values, the referendum is not accepted for official and will not be voted about.

Same applies if a new regulation that is passed by the parliament is not in line with the constitution. The regulations can be sent back for amendments.

(This whole legal set up is not originating from Hungary but certainly is useful and wise to have.)

Reka

I never said that :)

Off topic: See you Wednesday?

xxx

Off topic reply to Maria: Yes!  And I think it's high time you bring some souflaki for the guys at the NMD!

OK, now back to topic.

Reading through this thread, four quotations come to my mind:

"In Rome do as the Romans do." (Old European proverb)

"Be welcomed stranger, sit down and share our bread, be free to leave whenever." (Old Swiss proverb)

"Cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye." (Luke 6:42)

"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone." (John 8:7)

Sorry It is in French!!!

It is an article on the 20mn: The "Canton de Vaud" wants the Minarets Suisse to be on the UNESCO list. Hmmmm very interesting

http://www.20min.ch/ro/news/suisse/story/12324498

Another interesting comment on this subject.....

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a6kHZEWw7yCo

Obviously in no way does this reflect my opinion on this subject

Human Rights should not be a subject for referendums.

There is something called "the tyranny of the majority". That's why international human rights are judicial laws which the states bind themselves to. Will be interesting to see what happens if the matter is appealed to the European Court of Human Rights.

We have minarets and mosques in Norway. But they are not allowed to call for prayers, as the noise is too loud.

If we are looking @ interesting comments, here we go...

http://euobserver.com/24/29071

Indeed -- I was quite amused when I learned there were three more missilarets on the poster than there are in Switzerland.

The translation for the comment " which one deserve to be banned?"

First i want to precise i lived 2 years in colocation with a maroccan friend who is muslim and there was not problem ! so i'm not racist as say somebody who posted a stupid comment.

Ok Nir so tell me why do you want some minarets ? and why not more russian orthodoxes churches ? In dubai i was waken early in the morning by the muzzlin in the minaret. I just don't want the same cause you cannot be peaceful when you are waken up. Then there are laws in Switzerland yes, but imagine that some people say "We don't care about your swiss law, we have built our minarets for good reasons so let us call people and nevermind the police and law we would call UN, cours des droits de l'homme, etc....cause you are racist to prevent us to make noise for the prayer call, blabla... Law are easily broken like Khadafi did by treating his staff like slaves in the 21th century !

If there is no noise nobody no muzzlin in the minaret so why building it ? Minaret is not the main room where people pray (i remember the interesting course in school about Islam) Moderated muslims do not need minaret they just need Mosquee of course. Only  extrems want to be called by Muzzlin five time a day for the prayer....

Hi Tsatsa,

You asked me several things:

1. Why do I want more minarets?
I don't have a burning desire to see more minarets. My prob with the new ban is that once you start banning minority religious stuff, you don't know where it ends. And I am not a muslim.

2. Will minarets give us more noise?
The minarets have nothing to do with noise pollution in CH. In any case, making a public call to prayer at 5 am is illigal in CH, with or without minarets. If the issue here was about noise pollution, I would have no issue with it at all.

3. What purpose do minarets serve?
The minarets are built in line with muslim tradition, and they serve no 'real' purpose in CH except religious tradition. For that reason, a vote against the minarets is a vote against a religious tradition / symbol, and that's what gets so many people reacting...

Nir

Hi Nir,

Many thanks for giving your point of view because your arguments are very clear, well explained ! I understand your point of you that is not like some persons who attacks with rage Switzerland !

By the way, my opinion was not to offend a religion, it's just based on the limits. I come from too from a minority (russian orthodox), and If I wanted to practice my religion (respecting the days and tradition, etc...), I cannot do here ! But some do not understand that the days off are linked to the main religions country !  so if tomorrow i would like to do it , i won't complain about the Switzerland but will move to Greece or Russia !

Just to get a little perspective on the situation....

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=axK5Voe2uZno

i see what you're trying to do here, brucelawson, and it's not that i don't approve. seriously, i'm down with a good riot and i stand behind reactionary violence in almost all of its forms. the thing is, we've just had the anti wto demonstration in geneva and basically we're all still a bit knackered. let's regroup and pencil in a date for the new year. we should be able to mobilise by mid february. i'll put the word out.

Personaly i couldnt give a damn if there are minarets or not in switzerland... but the problem as one glocal member pointed out is that after this vote u dont know where it will stop!!

Another issue with this vote is that (and lets be honest here) if the folks just dont want a minaret ..then thats maybe ok, but i  think in the back of their minds, some of these folks are putin ALL MUSLIMS in the same basket..and basically sayin: whether youre a OSAMA BINLADEN or a just a very moderate muslim (who just wants 2 get on with his life and mind his own business)....u r all the same and you are not really welcome over here...  and that i find is really sad...

Cheers folks

A tip?  Whenever you want to prove that you're not racist, the worst way to do it is to say "I have [certain type] of friend[s]." Take it from a black gay man that it tends to have the opposite effect.

My question to you would be that if the issue is noise, than why not have a noise ordonnance? Any building would have to respect it.  Why specifically target minarets?

The issues you've brought up are red herrings.  It was a vote based on prejudice, and an unnecessary provocation.

Those who voted "yes" to prohibit the minarets have a right to their opinion.  And I have a right to say that it's dumb.

(This was written as a reply to TSATSA).

your values and democracy: bring in more money and leave your traditions and faith at home!!!!! Amen....

There was no provocation..

Were you born here ? Did you see like me the evolution of this country ?Do you come from a minority like me ? cause my religion is russian orthodox so if i want to practice the religion, i should go and live to another country. What did my grandfather who emigrated from Russia, from an education very religious and with lot of tradition ? He integrated himself without making politics things and revendication with his religion. So why there is no limit for ones and limits for the others ?

The solution in a country with lot of people from differents religions and nationalites is to put some limits. For everybody. Muslim is not a minority, not like russian orthodox !

I don't want to debate with you nicelinguist because i don't debate with people who attacks me and treat me of racist. If i was racist, i would never been in glocals, with my friends from different country and i would have made like these Swiss who stay with their Swiss friends...

Tsatsa, can you really take people seriously who put race and religion in the same boat?! I can't!

When a person denouces the behaviour of a certain group or in this case religion then their skin colour or homeland is of no relevance! Look at the Irish abroad and what I've heard on my travels ''Oh, another Paddy'' & ''You bunch of drunks''..or when it came to religion I was told while teaching in the middle east( and which is starting to creep in here too)   ''No talk of christmas, no carol singing, no easter eggs'' and did I cry to them all: 

'' Boo-hoo, no easter bunny! you're all a bunch of racists!'' Come on!

It's just all too easy for people to pull out that card, they just have nothing else to say!

Pure swiss, I am ashamed of what happened. Things must be changed. I hope these few next years this ridiculous vote will be canceled.

As a non "pure" Swiss (I hope this doesn't diminish the value of my opinion), I think that the referendum clouded what are actually a number of issues. In terms of the Minarets, every country has the right to determine it's architectural landscape and Switzerland has a long and rich cultural heritage - as do many Muslim countries - which should to be respected.  Nevertheless, I think this could have been achieved with building regulations rather than necessitating a referendum.

Freedom to practice one's religion freely is still enirely possible within the cultural context of Switzerland, i.e., the absence of Minarets is the only restriction here whereas this cannot be said of many of the countries criticising us who have much more reason to be "ashamed" and who give little heed to human rights - let's not lose perspective.

It is a pity that the SVP hijacked this discussion without contributing to a debate on what Switzerland wants for its future - that is what I miss in all the media discussion: what is the vision for the Switzerland of 2050 or 2100?

For the obsessively politically correct, what is one allowed to define in terms of cutural values to form such a vision without discriminating against someone in some way? Is it possible to say anything more than a Swiss is someone who lives in an area geographically defined as Switzerland (replace "Swiss/Switzerland" with any other country you want ). In a globalised world, what roles do culture and national identity still have? How does one retain and even promote one's cultural heritage without suggestions of having a nationalist/racist/whatever agenda?

Reading the comments above, can anyone name me a country that shouldn't be "ashamed" of something? This comment "..vote will be cancelled" reminds me of the joke: "The only thing wrong with democracy is that ANYBODY can vote." Perhaps we should introduce a test to see if one has a high enough political correctness score before being allowed to vote. Grouch Marx once quipped something relevant with regards to opinions "If you don't like this one, I've got others". Don't like the vote, appeal against it...  why bother, perhaps we should do away with democracy and just have a ruling elite or better still a totalitarian regime? No danger of an embarrasing "wrong" vote.

I don't always agree with the majority but I am not arrogant enough to believe that my opinion (vote) is somehow superior. I think the argument goes something like: the poor voters are just reading Blick, etc., easily influenced by hyped-up emotional debates and are not really intelligent and well-read enough to form an intelligent opinion and vote "correctly".  

Dear Swiss,

I have to say I respect the Swiss who openly voice their opinion even if it doesn't correspond with mine much more than the cowards who just pretend to be tolerant and instigate from a safe distance. Be a man or a woman and play with open cards otherwise I cannot take you seriously enough to even engage in a discussion.

Warmest regards.

Dodo