i think it's reptty straight-forward.  Glocals shoudfl put a banner on the reviews section stating that all reviews are the opinions of the individuals concerned and do not in any way reflect the views of glocals.  blah, blah.

because if you can't express a negative opinion on a review site then there is little value in having a review site at all.

So which copmpany was it?  Was it Active Languages, cos their course is total PANTS!

That company needs to feel the power of the Streisand Effect.

James,

good suggestion, but it would not have worked. My statements were easy to verify - the statement "to tell me boss" was included in an email that I offered to forward to Glocals, and the statement of "outright lie" was publicly made by the company in response to my initial post. On the other hand, I made Glocals aware that the response by the company included false statements that again would have been easy to investigate.

I don't think that if even in a case like this where the truthfulness of claims can be quickly verified but nevertheless a review is removed, a dislaimer on a website would help much - I guess the potential risk of legal liability is too much given that we are talking about a local site like Glocals, which naturally doesn't have that much in terms of financial resources.

But yes, I now question the value of the reviews, especially as the company in question has received exclusively 5 star reviews, and probably as many reviews in total as all other French languge schools combined - while my experience with this company in terms of teaching was ok, I am surprised that obviously all clients (but me) are super happy....

Alan,

I agree, albeit in this case it would be important to ensure that both sides of the story are presented. I don't know whether everybody would have agreed with my point of view  that I presented in my original review (it was about customer care rather than the actual services that the company offes) or rather with the companies point of view that it presented in its response. 

In my revised review, I reduced it to the verifyable statements mentioned above, as I felt that this would be important information about the business conduct of a company that should be allowed to be published, even if Glocals  felt that the complaint by the company about my original review was justified for whatever reasons.  This was obviously not the case.

In a free market of ideas. both sides should have the right to make their point. Company X did not make their point, but stifled your free expression. Which we should not tolerate.

Easy to guess how some companies get all their shiny ***** reviews!

Disturbing and disappointing......

This thread on glocals' censoring is telling! It says to me that glocals is not too concerned with the 'truth' on matters affecting the consumer. I stopped relying on reviews after I took the positive reviews about Pit Stop Garage on board and took my car there only to find that the service was below par.

To be honest, it may be time for me to leave glocals as a form of protest to such censorship. If glocals' management is in bed with special interests groups and has decided to protect such groups at all costs then it is time to give them some kind of incentive to rethink such a one sided policy.   

Nir - I would be interested in your side of this if you care to comment ?

Glocals would indeed provide a very poor service to the community if it did allow shitty companies to have their negative reviews removed. 

@tarndt: please name & shame the language school.  I also encourage you to leave a review on TripAdvisor and Google.

Hello all, 

I'm one of glocals' owners and was a part of the decision to remove Tarndt's review. 

Tarndt's post omits some of the context on what led to us removing his post, which I'd like to add in order to clarify the picture.    

1. It's a big decision for us to remove a review.  We hate doing it and it happens very rarely, and only when there's a strong reason for it.  This was such a case.

2. We kept Tarndt in the loop through this entire process.  

3. We don't have any relationship - at all - with the business that Tarndt reviewed, or with Tarndt. 

4. We removed Tarndt's review for 1 reason only: it presented an above-average legal risk to glocals. Here's why:

- The law says that if glocals has a reasonable reason to suspect a review on it is false or inaccurate, and that review can tarnish the reputation of a 3rd party, then glocals could be legally liable for defamation claims. (James: posting a banner on glocals saying we're not responsible for the reviews doesn't change our responsibility in the eyes of the law).  

- Tarndt's review was contested by the business. I can't get into the specific details for privacy reasons, but the merchant's email to us presented a different story than Tarndt. So we pro-actively reached out to both Tarndt and the business again, asking more questions to understand what happened. After several emails back and forth, we realized it would take a police investigator or a judge to figure out exactly what happened.

Additionally, Tarn edited his review several times after posting it.  Each time the review was edited, some facts and/or context were changed/corrected.  The changes made were in-line with the claims of the business.

From a legal view, the above meant that glocals had enough info to cast at least some doubt on the reviews accuracy, and that leaving the review online would present an above-average risk to glocals. So we updated Tarn on this (explaining we're not saying his review is false), and removed the review.   

And that's where we are today...

A word on moving forward. Our policy on assessing reviews, and dealing with businesses claiming a review is false, is far from perfect. We need to do the right thing for our members, for local business, and for our own legal safety, and it's a tough balancing act. Moreover, sites 1000 times larger than us, like Tripadvisor and Yelp, all struggle with this issue, without a clear "winning" model out there. If you have ideas on this, we'd love to hear them.    

One thing we'll implement soon is give the businesses which are reviewed on glocals an easier way to comment directly on reviews about them, which is now missing in glocals. 

Any feedback welcome, 

Oded

Hi Oded and everyone,

In my view if a company pressures you to remove a bad review, and there is insufficient information to verify it as you explained, the response should be to remove ALL their reviews from Glocals. If they don't want the bad then they don't get the good either. In this way Glocals remains impartial and should be legally in the clear.

I can confirm that Oded's explanation is generally accurate - Oded, thanks for summarizing it quite well, but I am perpelexed by your statement that you had  "some doubt on the reviews accuracy", especially given that you never communicated any such doubts in our email communication in which I provided detailed information about the points raised in my review.

Why did the simple fact that I edited my review cast doubts on its accuracy? You could have asked why I edited my review! As I already mentioned to you by email, I edited my post initially to correct an inaccuracy after the business made me aware of it. I then edited it to add a response to the review by the company (which I felt necessary as the business called my review an "outright lie"), and finally I undertook a couple of edits to  ensure that nothing that I wrote could be misconstrued and lead to legal action. After all, I received an email from the company stating that "I will file a complaint with [...] your boss for wrongful accusation", which - as you may understand - intimidated me quite a bit and made me fear that the business would not shy away from legal action against me  based on my review on Glocals - a fear that I certainly still have, which is why I am unable to reveal the name.

Moreover, it strikes me that on the one hand, the simple fact of me editing my review "cast at least some doubt" on the accuracy of my review, while on the other hand I made you aware of what I considered false information provided by the business, and it would have been easy for you to validate (or disprove) this.

And what about my revised review - see me first post in this thread. It was limited to verifiable information, so I am not sure how you could have doubted its accuracy.  I understand the potential legal liability issue, and I would have accepted if you had said that it is not for Glocals to verify any claims, and I understand that you cannot be the judge in matters like this. But please understand that I have to defend myself against your statement that me editing my review "cast at least some doubt" on its accuracy, which I perceive as questioning my integrity.

I also remain puzzled that you tolerate if a Glocals member writes  "I will file a complaint with [...] your boss for wrongful accusation" to another Glocals member. Irrespective of the circumstances in which the statement was made (even assuming that my review was inaccurate), I am disturbed that Glocals is NOT disturbed by this.

I understand that this matter has put Glocals in a difficult situation and that you don't necessarily have the resources to deal with such an issue. Allow me also to reiterate that I still believe that Glocals has been doing a fabulous job in building up  a fantastic community, which is very much appreciated by the thousands of expats in Geneva and beyond, including me.

This is why I feel it important to focus the discussion on the issues originally raised:

- How can we ensure that negative reviews, as long as they are factual and can be verified, can be published on Glocals?

- In how far can we allow companies advertising in the Glocals Guides section (and benefiting from positive reviews) to surpress negative reviews?

- How do we enable Glocals to allow its members to communicate such facts without being put at risk?

I've lost my trust with Glocals.

A business files a complaint with glocals concerning my review, which is then removed without providing any evidence as to how my review violated the Glocals Terms of Use (I am still puzzled in how far I may have violated the terms of use as the information provided was factually correct and I offered to provide evidence)

I file a complaint with Glocals concerning statements such as "I will file a complaint with [...] your boss for wrongful accusation" should be considered as intimidation, and are in violation of the Glocals Terms of Use (in adddtion to providing flalse information, also in violation of the Glocals Terms of Use)

Glocals however refused to do so - Oded got back to me to say that he considers the matter closed, and that I can take legal action. Isn't it what he should have recommended to the business in the first place, instead of removing my review that did not contain any factually incorrect statements? 

I think I was mistaken when thinking that Glocals was a community - it appears that its rather a business that does not even seem to care if members intimidate other members.

I would not be surprised if this thread was removed soon and my account deleted, but honestly, I don't care - good luck to all other members of Glocals in turning this back into a real community!

Remove all reviews (good and bad) for a company?  Not a good idea.  This happened for a dental clinic which ripped off many Glocals members.  Had the review stayed online, it would have prevented many members from getting a bad service. 

What should be done, is to leave the company name in the Guides with the reviews disabled and a message "this company has asked us NOT to be reviewed".  Then let Glocals members draw the appropriate conclusion.

BTW, the behavior of the member that menaced Tarndt of "telling his boss" is unacceptable.  I think this member should be banned. 

I also was once there (Nir might recall.) I also got a stupid email from the "service" provider in question.. I'm gonna send an army of lawyers to bring you down.. blah blah blah. I asked the simple why I cannot have an opinion? On what ground he'd be suing me? Nothing serious getting back, only... you are badmouthing us, blah blah blah. At the end Nir proposed just simply delete my review and let it be. I was totally fine with his proposal. Case closed. BUT. I still don't get the principles. Is there actually a law in CH preventing consumers sharing their PERSONNL OPINIONS with co-consumers? Unless those are positive, or very positive. If there is, then so be it. If notI certainly keep on asking and sharing whenever needed. That's how things really work! If posting (not so encouraging) reviews publicly is the issue, this I believe can be done in a bit more creative ways? Eg. "Unfortunately I gave only1 star to company xyz." = a code to send PM to the reviewer, etc. etc.

"Opinions are like a××holes - we all have one" -unknown

Hmmm!!  

It comes across like people are scared to express  their honest reviews about a service they have received, especially if it's a negative one. In my opinion, this completely defeats the purpose giving a review. 

Seem people are being threatened by legal action and these companies are getting away with providing sub-standard service.  I am surprised that people posting here are scared to mention the company names.  Didn't you guys pay for the services?  Do you know most people make decisions based on these reviews ?

I think we all have the right to give HONEST reviews on any service we receive first hand especially if the service providers were introduced to us by Glocals otherwise it should be scraped.  Perhaps, Glocals should be registered in another country, so these companies can only prosecute there.

Here is the bottom,  everyone have the right to review whatever service they receive and  glocals should not be party to negotiating between service providers/client.  The service provider should defend it's services.  Please!!!   

Does anyone know anyone who has faced legal action for expressing an honest opinion ?  I think it's a lot of Hot air!! . If i receive a service I will give an honest review the service deserves.  

Hi guys,

There is no problem with negative reviews or reviews expressing a negative opinion about a business / service provider, as long as the facts described in the review are correct.

But if you post a review that includes false information (info - not opinions), then you can be sued by the business, and we (glocals) can also be sued if we were made aware that the facts were false and we didn't take action.

So yes - we all have the right to post honest reviews, and if you take a look at the City Guide section you'll see that there are lots of positive reviews and lots of negative reviews too.

To the best of my recollection, we've deleted 4 reviews in 7 years.  Not because we have special ties with these businesses but because these reviews presented an above average legal risk for us.

I understand that the system isn't perfect, but it works 99.9% of the time and for now it's the best we have.

Oded

i dont think anyone is debating the right to post honest reviews, but...

the debate is about false reviews, or reviews where there's at least a reasonable doubt about their honesty. in that case both the poster and the site that allows the post to stay there are taking a legal risk. it's up to each person and site to decide how high a risk they want to take. 

it's not uncommon for businesses to sue individuals for defamation.  

Risto,

There should be a customer charter  and quality of service  should be up to par. This is the 21st century and Switzerland. I am told anything swiss has to be perfect :-) - oh well ! 

Going through the threads, I also kind of get the feeling that both clients and Glocals  are under control of some service sub-standard service providers.

Does anyone share this feeling or have I lost the plot  ?   

I will assume that the companies which provide quality service will usually let their reputation speak for them, and there are a significant number of companies that fall in this category, but the sub-standard service providers will perhaps spend more money monitoring their reviews and litigation/lawyers. - Perhaps !

In some countries, do you know that if you pay for a service that turned out to be is sub-standard, not only will you be able to leave a review, your concerns will be address so they can improve their service, but you will also be compensated for inconvienences caused. 

One more thing..  Companies pay or give you incentives to leave a review.  Yes!  I kid you NOT! 

Anyhow, as mentioned in your post, just like opinions are like  a**hole and everyone has one. Here is mine; 

If you pay for a service, you should get value for money, and you should have the right to complain and review the service.  I believe there has to be  a government body that  deal with this sort of issues especially quality of service.  -  Anyone ?

I hope you  find this useful.

Oded,

Thank you for your comment, but I still understand your point of view as there was not false information in my review (there was incorrect information, which I corrected immediately after being made aware of it - likely before you even started dealing with this matter) but you never communicated to me any concerns about the truthfulness of the infornation I provided, and I provided comprehesive background information by email.

Also, you do not explain why you disregared my complaint of intimidation by another member  simply by saying that  you considered the case "closed".  Even if you consider anything I wrote to be false, I am puzzled that you tolerate intimidation. I am also puzzled that you never acknowledged my complaint, but only got back to me after I ask whether you are doing anything about it.

Is it ok for you for Glocals members to intimidate other Glocals member? 

Please feel free to publish my original review (names removed for privacy concerns on part of the business) to allow other Glocal members to make up their mind as to how my review included "false information" and "justifies" making threats. Please then also post the response by the business to allow people to understand why I complemented my review so that other Glocals members can make up their own mind about it. 

I was never shy emphasizing that others may not agree with me, and I always stresses that from a legal point of view, the business may not be doing anything wrong, so my review was focussed on customer service and customer care, and I think that there is anything wrong with raising issues there. 

However, while I don't trust reviews on Glocals anymore given my experience, the question that remains for me is whether you agree  with members intimidating other member. The - real or perceived threat - has caused me sleepless night, and that you sanction it is something I still need to get my head around.

The bigger issue for the Glocals community in my opinion is how we can help you - after all, it appears to me that if you only deleted four reviews, there are already three people in this thread that have experienced it first hand...

Thank you very much for the post.

I understand that false reviews are unfair and should be frowned at - 100%  but these does not represent the Glocals views(put up a disclaimer or register in another country). The business should deal directly with the reviewer, and improve their service.

Glocals success has been mainly due to the community  and consequently the business interest in Glocals has been because of the Community . Is this correct ?

If correct, then I know two things:

Glocals needs the community and the businesses need Glocals to bring the community to them. 

Glocals has won the trust of the community who believes Glocals have their interest at heart.

I think Glocals should seriously think about their business model and the way they are going about their business .  What is worth doing, is worth doing well.   If any company can threaten Glocals about litigation  and they shy away too quick from "legal risk", then how is the community suppose to trust them ?

The members and the businesses/services providers are clients of Glocals and should be treated with upmost respect.  What makes Glocals think the community cannot sue them ?

If i was the guy (juiceman) who went to  Pit Stop Garage based on positive reviews only to receive a below par service -(based on his statement).  I will be livid, loose trust and will take action because I would not want anyone else to surfer the same misfortune.

Anyway!  I rest my case and I say no more!

olu: you have no real case to rest. you really expect glocals (or any other business) to register in a different country or to reconsider their business model because they removed 5 reviews out of thousands over the past 10 years, due to a a legal risk? that doesn't make any sense. put the issue in perspective man. 

and as someone mentioned before, putting up a disclaimer doesn't release a reviews site from legal defamation risks 

I'm sure the site owners have done their legal homework on this.

However I do find it strange that it is not possible to allow a service provider the right of reply and then to leave things at that. Without referring to any one case, on any review site you'll always get a range of opinions, but you normally get a sense of an average. Any firm with a good reputation should be happy to just put its own case and let the reader make their own call. 

Personally I would be very skeptical of a firm demanding a negative review be pulled. I would appreciate it if the OP would DM me the name of the firm as I'd prefer not to use their services solely based on their behaviour here. 

Oded,

two straight questions to which I never received any information from you by email:

- from your posts in this forum I get the impression that you consider my reviews (both the original one as well as the revised one) to contain false information. Please clarify whether this is the case and specify what information in my reviews you are exactly refering to. As a reminder, in my second review I only mentioned that 1) after I published the review, the company contacted me by email and stated that "I will file a complaint with glocal for publicizing a lye and your boss for wrongful accusation" - you have already received evidence that this is correct information, and 2) In response to my review, the company posted a review requesting Glocals to "take this review down, as is it an outright lie" - this information was publicly available.

- What is glocals view on statements such as "I will file a complaint with your boss..." Does glocals tolerate and thereby sanction this type of statements? 

Thanks

There is no problem with negative reviews or reviews expressing a negative opinion about a business / service provider, as long as the facts described in the review are correct.

Oded

He (Pierre Zimmermann) is known as a scoundrel in real estate circles (...)

Paul E

He (Mr. Z) in person asked for cash under the table to get our flat.... He is a crook (...)

larag80

So I guess you (Oded) have verified these serious allegations regarding P. Zimmermann, and lara has shared with you a proof that he indeed committed a crime...

I've read tarndt's original review, in which, while acknowledging that the service provider is within his/her legal rights, he basically wrote that he/she wasn't very customer friendly. THAT'S IT!!!!

(A judge would laugh at him/her for such a ludicrous case... not so much in the matter regarding P. Zimmermann)

So sorry, Oded, but I still don't get it why you would side with the bullies in tarndt's case...

Any response, Oded?

Oded, I am amazed that there is no response from your site, which can only be taken as Glocals not having any problems with users intimidating other users. 

I have in the meantime taken the liberty to republish my two reviews, very much with the same wording of the original publication, as I cannot see how they violate your Terms of Use. 

If you decide to remove the below text again, I would appreciate an explanation as to your reasoning.

Review posted at http://www.glocals.com/guides/biz/learn-french-geneva/

I took French classes with Learn French in Geneva, yet unfortunately my experience were very negative.

After I prepaid for 10 classes, I was unable to take any of these classes due to personal reasons, and asked for a reimbursement, minus administrative costs.

They refused to reimburse any of money already paid (1050 CHF), instead offering to extend the time frame in which classes can be taken, even though they are aware of my personal situation.

While this may - or may not - be perfectly in line with their terms, I am quite astonished by the lack of passion and business behaviour. I strongly recommend potential future customers of "Learn French in Geneva" to consider this business behavior, and existing customers to reconsider their engagement with this company, given that there is a range of highly recommended schools existing in Geneva.

After I published this review originally the company posted a review requesting Glocals to "take this review down, as is it an outright lie" (my original review, which matched the wording of the above text, was removed by Glocals following a request by the company). The owner of the company also contacted me by email and stated that "I will file a complaint with glocal for publicizing a lye and your boss for wrongful accusation".

You may want to consider this type of business conduct when deciding about which service provider you select to learn french in Geneva.

Both Oded and adam_jeff propose excellent upgrades:

- The right for the business owners to respond (It's fairer if they can present their side of the story in case of a bad review)

- The right for the business owners to be removed completely from the Guides section (2 advantages: bullies reign ends, Glocals can't be sued)

@Tarndt

As we did last time, we'll assess the legal risk that your review places on glocals based on what we hear from the business owner and, if necessary, our lawyer. If we believe there's an above-average risk, we'll update you just like we did last time.

Last time this risk was amplified by you changing your review several times, which raised accuracy concerns from our side. If you now refrain from editing your review, that will help.

Oded