Agree with Perplexis. The system has indeed it's positive points, but it's lead to a situation where the majority has been encouraged to bully and scapegoat a minority based on ignorant stereotyping. The minority in this system is basically helpless.

What I am wondering is where was the left, centre and, let's face it, moderate right campaign in all of this? I saw a lot of 'Ja' posters but there are usually 'Nein' posters as well around referendum time. This time I didn't spot any.

This comment I find slightly annoying. However like most ill thought out comments it is easy to refute.

"Switzerland benefits from me being here" : lol the standard arrogant tune on my fellow expats... stop masturbating your ego folks. Sorry to shatter your illusions but our input in this country is at best marginally marginal. How much do we make? 6k, 7k monthly? our global impact is an anecdotical 0,00-something percent."

Ok I read that you are a banker, so I assume you have a basic grasp of economics.

Unless there are some expats out there subsisting off state benefits, it would be safe to say that the majority of us contribute directly through taxes, and indirectly through rent, purchase of goods and services to the Swiss economy, and that this has a positive net  financial input to Switzerland. Therefore Switzerland benefits from expats being here. The size of the input is irrelevent as long as it is a positive. So the rest of your comment is totally irrelevent.

Secondly you mention that this forum has an "overwhelming patronising majority" who

use the "standard arrogant tune" of "Switzerland benefits from my being here"
Actually that was mentioned by one person out of 31 posts. That is about 3%. Hardly a majority even in my own country"s non democratic system(As Cailindias tells me the democracy of my country is)

Finally on the subject of patronising: ( Definition:(used of behavior or attitude) characteristic of those who treat others with condescension)
The three most patronising statements here are:

"I feel it's about time to point out the view of the Swiss people; I have no clue or idea of how many of you actually speak either French, German or Italian. Would you have had the chance to follow what really goes on in Switzerland, you might would have a different view."

"I am sure that because many of you don't speak the langages that you are completely missing the point about the vote. It wasn't just about minarets, many citizens of CH are currently not happy with their government, how disconnected they are from their people and how they are not addressing all to important issues in their country. Therefore, understandably they want these points targetted before they agree to or accept any more."

And finally; the post that starts with "Just a thought, name Glocals seems rather irrelevant today, it should be SourExpats.ch......."

Is that a coincidence?

have a nice evening

 Hardly a majority even in my own country"s non democratic system(As Cailindias tells me the democracy of my country is)

''The Lisbon Treaty is based on the European Constitution, which started at a summit in Brussels in December 2001.

Despite the scale of the changes the treaty makes, the British people have never been directly consulted on the document, which was ratified in a Commons vote and signed by Mr Brown in 2007.

The British people have never even voted once, and we will not let people forget whose responsibility that is."

William Hague, the shadow foreign secretary, said it was "a bad day for British democracy.''

 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/6496336/Lisbon-Treaty-more-of-Britains-powers-surrendered-to-Brussels.html

Of course you're democractic..how did I ever doubt it!

Oh dear....

so your precis of British democracy boils down to your most recent memory of something that might be thought of as non democratic?

As far as I am aware in most democratic countries, the democracy lies in the ability to vote on a choice of government every few years. By this method a mandate is given to that government to take decisions, even if at the time of that descision it might be unpopular

Obviously Switzerland has a different system.

But both systems don't seem to have a process of referendum, that if the answer is not satisfactory to the ruling elite, that there is a process such that the elite can ask for another referendum until they get the answer they desire

Does that remind you of any particular county?

I used to be a professional poker player.and found the psychology of why people continue to bet on losing hands was a very intersting subject.....

people swiss or no swiss...go chill go vent!:-) and let the people of switzerland think they have a perfect democracy...its good to dream from time 2 time....

"Switzerland benefits from me being here"

If you are interested in taking this quote in context, where I am saying that I view my relationship with Switzerland as reciprocally beneficial, rather than one where I am condescended to as a 'guest', then please read my orignal post, it's on the first page.

Copy from my e-mail account: ... can not find it here

Gentlman4evr posted the below reply to the forum thread ‘Re: Time to accept the vote from the Swiss people...':

Oh Bruce, Tony, wooooo that patronizing tone chills my spine lol... Hey why don't you put a sock in it and buy yourself a life? Again, if you can't live with locals and their choices, EasyJet has 5 flights daily to UK... This forum has become just an open tribune for a handful of sour and bitter brit expats that apparently were too lousy to get themselves a job in UK lol

Parazite: def. An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host...

this post is everything, except frm nice and respectful.has someone missed the message of these nice angels sent by I don't know who (Mohamed or jesus, etc...)?I can translate in french or german if ne wish.

Firstly, "parasite" not "parazite".

Secondly, how are expats considered parasites?  Do they not pay rent, taxes, patronise local establishments thereby contributing to the local economy? 

Lastly, most companies tend to send their more competent employees overseas...

I would guess that Oded removed the post. Whether on the grounds of it being offensive I really do not know or care.However it is not hard to work out the reason you chose to repost it, and since you did I will lump you in with our friendly swiss banker.
The problem is that whilst people spend some time and trouble to think out arguements carefully and check facts and staistics, some people just think throwing some mud randomly will make it stick. I notice neither you not Mr teenage text seem capable of refuting any cogent points made in the above discusson, but instead chooose words like sour, bitter, lousy almost in a random fashion.
I do not understand what the limited defintion of a Parasite really has to do with anything. It is just a definition .If one could then go on to show that foreign people inSwitzerland were actually a drain on Swiss financial resources there might be some point to it.But since one can''t then it really becomes rather pathetic.... or even bitter dare I say
Just too illustrate a point. Easyjet has 7 flights a day( not 5) at the moment to the UK( more in the ski season) Our banker friend seems to have lost 30% of the total without even knowing it. So he must truly be a banker.A complete and utter banker......

you know people: two years ago we had a discussion in the forum about white and black sheeps. and that one got also pretty out of hand.

i think to end the crazy debate nir or oded said: c'mon guys, this forum is not the right place for it any more. whoever wants to discuss the subject further in a serious and objective way can meet offline in a bar or restaurant.

Totally agree with you summermind,  but also remember some! seem to have the right to say anything here and others get deleted... thats my reason for copying the post!

I notice neither you not Mr teenage text seem capable of refuting any cogent points made in the above discusson, but instead chooose words like sour, bitter, lousy almost in a random fashion.

Bruce, thank you all "your kind words," either I am missing again something, but I can NOT find any of these words on any of my posts.

Happy Friday and happy weekend everyone!

A Charter for Compassion

A call to bring the world together...

http://charterforcompassion.org/

The principle of compassion lies at the heart of all religious, ethical and spiritual traditions, calling us always to treat all others as we wish to be treated ourselves. Compassion impels us to work tirelessly to alleviate the suffering of our fellow creatures, to dethrone ourselves from the centre of our world and put another there, and to honour the inviolable sanctity of every single human being, treating everybody, without exception, with absolute justice, equity and respect.

It is also necessary in both public and private life to refrain consistently and empathically from inflicting pain. To act or speak violently out of spite, chauvinism, or self-interest, to impoverish, exploit or deny basic rights to anybody, and to incite hatred by denigrating others-even our enemies-is a denial of our common humanity. We acknowledge that we have failed to live compassionately and that some have even increased the sum of human misery in the name of religion.

We therefore call upon all men and women ~ to restore compassion to the centre of morality and religion ~ to return to the ancient principle that any interpretation of scripture that breeds violence, hatred or disdain is illegitimate ~ to ensure that youth are given accurate and respectful information about other traditions, religions and cultures ~ to encourage a positive appreciation of cultural and religious diversity ~ to cultivate an informed empathy with the suffering of all human beings-even those regarded as enemies.

We urgently need to make compassion a clear, luminous and dynamic force in our polarized world. Rooted in a principled determination to transcend selfishness, compassion can break down political, dogmatic, ideological and religious boundaries. Born of our deep interdependence, compassion is essential to human relationships and to a fulfilled humanity. It is the path to enlightenment, and indispensible to the creation of a just economy and a peaceful global community.

http://charterforcompassion.org/

Yes yes, us big bad admins are playing favorites again and deleting some posts while letting others say what they like.  So unfair...

I'll try to make this as simple as possible:

If you can't state your opinion without using words/phrazes like: Put a sock in it, get a life, parasite, not good enough to get a job in your own country... then please don't post anything.

Oded

Bruce - I'm hoping Oded removed the post because I reported it, advising that it was neither "in the spirit of glocals" or "Gentlemanly" to sling mud (especially as our fellow Swiss Residents refer to our repeatedly as "guests" - a bizarre slant on hospitality).

BTW - if you have a qwerty keyboard, you'll find the letter you're looking for next to the Q  

West vs. East

Both sides of intolerance

I remember this thread quite well and it wasn't the first one...

Those/these kinds of thread are usually quite enjoyable because they mark the racists and the imbeciles for who they are. Publicly. And since there is no edit function they can't go back and retract their bullshit (I approve very strongly of the lack of edit). For the same reason I frequently find myself wishing that admins wouldn't whip posts out of the threads, as generally all they serve to do is expose the poster for the buffoon they are.

Lets take a break and look at this Chinese posters, very lovely!

Swiss you said the following.

"Dear Cailindeas & Gentlman4er,

Thank you for the having the guts to speak up, you two said it all! Wink"

Guilty by association I think its called.....

Well, we had today an official statement from our « Bundesratspräsident, President of the Federal Councilation, Hans-Rudolf Merz: " We do not apologize anywhere in the world for the outcome of the vote..."

Hopefully my final words on this discussion: My new years resolution 2 years ago, run a marathon - I've done a few ever since...

So maybe I should look @ a life in Swiss politics...after all it's never too late to start something new.

Or even better, Bruce and Tony you would like this one: as Bruce stated that there are lots of flights to the UK, I still have a home in Richmond/Surrey and I'm the holder of a UK passport...British politics? No worries guys, I leave it to you.

swiss and calindeas, do you really mean that the outcome of this referendum shouldn't be analysed and discussed just because it is 'the will of the swiss people' and their will should be respected? do you always argue in this way about the outcome of an election regardless of what the consequences might be? if not, why should this be an exception?

you seem to think that the result of this referendum is something that concerns only switzerland and the swiss, but it's not quite that simple. the swiss minaret ban is something that has been a hot topic of debate in the media all across europe (well, in the muslim world as well i suppose - not least libya). switzerland is a european democracy just like any other, and if this can happen here, then why not all over europe?

most western countries have, as far as i know, openly condemned the result.right wing extremist parties all over europe are of course thrilled, and the people's party in denmark, for example, now want to have a similar referendum in their own country. so...do you see how this is actually other people's business as well?

i for one think that it's extremely important to understand what it was that made so many swiss citizens vote for a minaret ban. was it fear, and in that case, what can be done to prevent this fear from growing? islamophobia is a widespread problem all over europe, and it's something we need to do something about. if we remain quiet and 'respect the will of the people' every time something like this happens, then who knows where we'll end up.

I find this whole discussion has developed into idle talk.
SWISS commenced the forum to say that it's time to accept the peoples vote. But it's still quite obvious that many of you can't but actually I think its just 'democracy' you can't grasp!

My final endeavour.
If people do not rule their country and take care of making important decisions who should then? Politicians?

But IF people are capable of electing ther politicians in the first place,then why are they considered not capable of making additional important decisions on their country?! Have aliens abducted their brains in the meantime?!

Moreso, if the people shouldn't be in charge of defining the content of the constitutional law, who should?

Then once it's decided, is that it? should it be set in stone?
Is it right that the people are incapacitated to amend it for evermore?

IMO, the Swiss system is the only logical and suitable system because in a real democracy there can't be any other source of government authority except the people!! If you trust your elite to make every important decision for you then watch your country crumble. And we don't have to look too far for that!

And some may argue:
                           '' But the people could make a wrong decision(s)''
True. No doubt they could.

But so could the politicians and the justice and every other institution involved. Just to provide 1 e.g., the admirable countries still fighting their losing wars...ever have a vote on that 'important decision' or feel any 'guilt by association'

At the end of the day who ''pays the cost'' of everything that happens in a country and for every wrong decision made in a country? Your politicians..I think not!

SWISS..why not give it a shot?!from what I've read of you you'd be more pro-active and committed to your people than some of your current 'representatives'

Peace and happy weekend

Seems we make bigger deal then what really will happen in switzerland. so what about the vote, the Minerets will stay, and will not be foreced to be taken down. Second, the european union and United nations will demand the Swiss accept there already agreed , freedom of religion. Infact the votation will hurt them financially, as many muslim countries will look at the vote as insulting. so they will find other jurisdictions for there corporate and private wealth management.

So maybe it was a statement, but nothing will happen. Once the get the current agreements reintroduced that they cant turn back or will be very bad for there reputation.

Reputation is the bedrock of the swiss economy, and if they forgotten this, then its there mistake.

After all the silly point scoring on this forum I think  the most important comment has just come to light.

"Reputation is the bedrock of the swiss economy, and if they forgotten this, then its there mistake."

Whether one is thinking about Minarets, Democracy. The Swiss Economy, Morality....this little statement is so loaded with meaning............ it's wonderful

Swiss, I completely disagree with you. You confuse two things : not accepting the result of a vote and criticizing it.

Not accepting it would be preventing its implementation, like building a minaret by force. That would be refusing democracy. As far as I know, nobody suggested it.

Criticizing it is the right of anybody, swiss or not, muslim or not. You may be better informed if understand French, German or Italian, but if not, you are still entitled to your less informed opinion.

Personnaly, I voted against the ban and even it had been accepted by 99% of the voters, I would still think that it is a stupid discriminating counter productive decision, and have the right to say it aloud.

I was sitting on the train yesterday and there were these two schoolkids in the group of seats next to mine. I guess they had just come out of a lesson on world affairs or whatever they learn in school nowadays. I didn't quite hear everything, but the first kid said that, while there seemed to be convincing evidence that the planet was warming up, there was no evidence that the change was forced by man, and therefore there was no need to alter the way we behave. The second kid came back immediately by saying that that may well be true, but in a case where we only have one system in which to test this hypothesis -- the system in which we all depend -- how could we dare to take that risk? The only way we would ever get conclusive proof is to wait a hundred years, by which time we would be able to say conclusively one way or the other. But should the result be negative, the damage would be irreparable, and we would have lost our single chance to fix it. We would be, for want of a better word, fucked (12 year-old use such filthy language). Thus, despite the fact that proof is pending, severe action needs to be taken now.

I remember thinking that the argument was very well thought out for a 12 year-old. Not bad. He had grasped pretty well a problem that existed far outside of himself and followed it through well. The first kid just paused and looked back at the second one, before screwing up his face and delivering his repost: SHUUDDDUP!!!

Here is a whiteboard with a useful box drawn in the middle:

Why all this fuss about the decision to prohibit the construction of minarets in Switzerland. There are many churches in Christian countries without a bell tower and there are many mosques in Muslim countries without a minaret.

There is an old proverb saying "In Rome do as the Romans do." Or in short, respect the customs and traditions where you go. So if the Swiss do not want to have minarets in Switzerland that is their decision.

Now, if the Muslims really feel for towers in Switzerland, then the simple solution is to construct them following the Swiss traditional design and add a chime of bells ‘glockenspiel' - chiming "Allah Akbar"......

And everybody will be happy.

Hi Oded!

As you have siad aready, many times....

"Be good or be gone"

Cheers

My two sisters-in-law were both married to airline pilots, who both secured jobs flying for sheikhs in Saudi Arabia. Both girls were forced to wear burquas each time they went out, were not allowed to drive, no alcohol of course. They gladly submitted to the rules because they were guests in SA and had to abide by that country's regulations. Natch. Switzerland is a Christian country. Other religions are made welcome but only up to a point, which is conversely the case in Muslim countries no doubt. The Swiss have the right to vote in a referendum on whatever the topic = and very often do. Those who do not agree with their decision are free to leave - but then, they probably wouldn't because they are all earning such terrific salaries and paying such low taxes, added to a fantastic standard of living. Please note, that I do not live in Switzerland but have many Swiss friends who feel it is anathema to them for other nationalities to criticise their vote.