Hey Rich

You wouldn't have these issues if you just stuck to the standard British way of dealing with non-English speakers, which is to address them as if they are large, deaf children.

Bonjour

c'est très mal poli en français tutoyer un adulte sans le connaitre. Le " tu" est réservé aux enfants ou bien aux personnes qu'on connait bien et après accord mutuel. En espérant t'avoir éclairer un peu.

Bien à vous

Angela

Angela, I do understand but thank you for proving my point. Btw, when I was at the airport it was to fly home to see my mother who died two days later so my mind was otherwise concerned. Clearly I should have been taken out and shot for offering to help and old woman with her suitcase. What a total bastard I am!

What would happen if you were trying to pull someone from burning wreckage and said, "Vite! Prends ma main !"? I guess i'd get from you, "On sait connait?!"

This old lady was not very intelligent.The 'tu' is generally accepted when we deal with foreigners.

I meant "On se connaît?!". I was just going through a bad spell. 

Rich je comprends parfaitement ton point de vue et je suis totalement d'accord.Et moi personellement je ne me vexe pas si quelqu'un me dit " tu" . Je suis juste un peu surprise. Mais avant, je t'ai juste  répondu  par rapport à la langue française que exige la forme de respet " vous". Autrement dit, j'espère que les personnes intelligentes ne se vexeront jamais si le " tu" vient d'un étranger en toute bonne foi.

Cordialement

Angela 

In some “Third World” countries, servants and other semi-skilled workers who’ve had limited schooling often only know the familiar form. I can remember being taken aback when, on being introduced to an office driver, he immediately asked “Tu vas bien, Madame?” But I certainly didn’t take it amiss and we subsequently had many a good tu-toi natter when he was at the wheel.

I’d say the lady at the airport might have been astonished at the offer of help or was also on her way to sad occasopn.  Maybe her bunions were hurting.  What matters, Rich, is that you tried to do a good deed.

Good on you Richie on not taking it amiss when a semi-skilled/limited education person had the (what should I say?) temerity, gall, audaciousness, effrontery, to address you as an equal.

And well done you on being able to have not just one but indeed many conversations  with that person (?) as if you were equals.

So helplessly moronic...

Before this descends into a forum for hate speeches against the French or French speakers please try to understand this was purely an observation from my experience in relation to TWO words within what is a great language and their importance for native French speakers, which can lead to frustration for English speakers who only have one form of 'you'. That's all!

Using "tu" with someone you have not been introduced to beforehand, or not been invited to do so, is like kissing a girl on the mouth without even so much as an unspoken invitation! NO! Ir's a violation of the intimate sphere.

You say "tu" to young children, friends and family members. FULL STOP.

You say "vous" to strangers, teens, co-workers unless otherwise asked.

Angela,

Quand vous dites ' aux personnes qu'on connait bien', ca veut dire quoi? Le medicin que j'ai visite plusieur fois? Le barista qui me reconnait parce que je le vois presque tous les jours?

Ca me confond beaucoup. Merci pour votre conseil!

no.38

Je ne  suis pas Angela mais je me permets de répondre en tant que professeur de français.

Vous ne pouvez pas tutoyer votre médecin sauf si c'est un ami ou s'il vous a dit 'on peut se tutoyer', il faut toujours un accord préablable pour le tutoiement , çe ne peut pas se faire de façon spontanée.C'est la règle.

Si la barmaid ou le barman que vous avez l'habitude de voir régulièrement ne vous tutoie pas, vous ne pouvez pas le faire spontanément, il faut lui dire 'on peut se tutoyer?'.

Le vouvoiement et le tutoiement constituent une  difficulté  pour les gens qui étudient le français, je le constate régulièrement.

Je pense qu'Angela sera d'accord avec moi.

Merci à Rich qui nous a donné l'occasion d'aborder ce sujet.

Bonjour

je pense que votre médecin vous ne le " connaissez pas bien". Mais juste au niveau professionnel et pas amical.  Car si tel était le cas je suppose que vous vous tutoieriez déjà. Oui Celia je suis totalement d'accord avec toi.

Angela

I'd like to thank Celia and Angela for their comments. The one about your doctor being a good point; when does it finally become acceptable to tutoyer them? I hope you can understand that as a native English speaker with the one form of 'you' my comments weren't meant to be inflammatory and so this thread came about through genuine curiosity – especially after trying to help someone and them solely focusing on a grammatical error instead of the act of helping them!

For Hay's comment, well, I’m not a native French speaker but I did find your example of sexually assaulting a woman being the same as calling them ‘you’ instead of ‘you’ somewhat extreme! I haven’t seen any ‘Tutoyer Crisis Centres’ in Switzerland or France or a register of ‘Known Tutoyer Offenders’.

Again, speaking from my experience, when I tried to learn Spanish and Czech and visited those countries often over a number of years, no one reached the feather-spitting stage of righteous indignation when I addressed them as ‘tú’ instead of ‘usted’ or ‘ty’ instead of ‘vy’. I did try to make an effort by using the correct form but was told don’t worry. This did help me gain confidence and allow me to feel comfortable in both languages relatively quickly.

I think they were more grateful and impressed I’d attempted to speak their respective languages than pouncing on a point of grammar and taking it as a personal attack on them. But again, thank you for your comments.

Tout ce qui est excessif est insignifiant - Talleyrand.

You seriously gotta get a life bellend. I've lived in your country and I'm glad I never met you ;)

For the record tutoiement typically is more common in Suisse romande, which is cute (here people are less formal in daily conversation, unlike France or Germany).

And no, for the sake of diversity, French or German grammar shouldn't be changed just to please the anglo-saxon cultural hegemony.

Chère Angela,je te remercie de m'avoir tutoyé, je le prends comme une marque de sympathie!

Chère Angela, je te remercie de m'avoir tutoyée, je le prends comme une marque de sympathie!

Prof de français?

Oui désolée! Dans mon enthousiasme j'ai oublié le 'e', je fais mon mea culpa!

Ca nous arrive à tous de faire des fautes d' aurtograffes

Ça nous arrive à tous de faire des fautes d' aurtograffes

En effet...

Non pas prof  et le français n' est pas ma langue maternelle. Sur un forum j'utilise que le TU. Oui pour moi c'est plus amical. A +

Hello vous, tus and yous. 

Many of us find this thread interesting so I'd like to keep it open but please keep the conversation civil and please post in English so even those of us with less than perfect French can understand.  

Thanks

Oded

Asking if formal/informal french mistakes often get overly precious/snooty/icy responses... and then being responded to in formal french (both tone & format) & quotes from old french politicians ... is magical  

As Rich mentioned, it twins with confidence. What is the end goal? for non-natives to really try or to be hesitant?

I get the impression that there is a low level french sentiment that their language (&culture) is in constant risk of disappearing, becoming obsolete, or being replaced. Hence the movement to remove english words and to use the older french words or to make new french ones.

It is interesting though!

So we need to retitle this post 'You and you'? 

I have been trying to unsuscribe to this thread all afternoon, but unfortunately keep receiving emails for each new post. Anyone else having the same issue?

Hi Hay, 

At the bottom of this thread is a small orange link that says Unsubscribe from this thread. If you click on it, you will get a pop up saying You have Unsubscribed from this thread. 

that that what you did? 

Oded

It's actually very SIMPLE:

- TU if it is someone ou know (family member, a friend, a child, outside of that there has to be a "sign", an agreement that you can "tutoyer".  It has got nothing to do with being formal or informal, it is a matter of respect, nothing else.  If you make a mistake, don't get offended because you "offended" someone by saying TU instead of VOUS. You could say "thank you, I have learnt something today" instead of "how rude is that persone by being offended"...

I will NEVER TUTOYER someone I have never met them before and who I am not comfortable with TUTOYER.

- VOUS if you do not know the person at all, or if the person who has a much higher status than you (you won't say TU to the BIG company boss unless it is a friend of yours), same as example above about the doctor, or anyone like this.  You won't say TU to the cashier desk at the supermarket (you do not know the person).  It's like in the U.K., people shake your hands when they do not know you, instead of kissing cheeks like they do in France or Switzerland.  Once they know you well, and they become your friends, they will give you a big hug.  Then it is similar to TUTOYER, you get "closer" with the person.

It can't be simpler.  We are lucky we do not have to deal with business matters or else in South East Asia as it gets much more complicated than that.  Trust me, you won't get you business deals there trying to use their language the way you might want to use the French language ;).

Bearing that in mind, Swiss people tend to like TUTOYER, In France, people don't and that is understandable.  I doubt you would say to the company's big boss:" Alright mate?"

Like Hay was saying:"it's like a violation of your intimacy".  No one can judge that, that is just the way it is :), take it or leave it, but don't judge something you can't understand or can't control... :)

And don’t let’s forget that, in France, “vous” is still used in many families.  A 70+ friend of mine always addresses his Mother as “vous”.  And I did likewise with my most of my own in-laws, as an acknowledgement of their and my status in the group.  So what if that made me an “outsider”. I was and still am me.

Thanks to everyone for their comments:

So to summarise in line with Oded’s request all posts are in English this is how it goes:

You should only be used for family members, friends and children. It is unforgivable to call someone you’ve just met, ‘you’ unless they give you (sorry I meant you) permission. Failing to observe this is one of the more heinous crimes imaginable!

Otherwise, use ‘you’ for all other people you don’t know, including your boss, old people, your doctor, etc. Should you at any point be unsure whether to use you or you then you should just default to you, which is safer as you’ll be hedging your (Oh Sorry! I meant your) bets.

Enjoy your (Oh Jesus! Not again!! Apologies!) - your week! 

So, if I get it right... Wearing a tutu...

...and... wearing a vousvous...

Whereas back in Rome......

If you attempted to help an old lady in Italy and spoke basic Anglo-Italian in an attempt to do so, you'd be taken home to meet Mama, introduced to the family like a long lost friend, offered some wine and garlic bread and married off to their youngest before you could say "Mamma Mia"!

Just an observation.....

Brilliant! 

Just to play devil's advocate, is it really the case in other languages would be more forgiving or would it elicit the same reaction such as in Italian, Russian or German... I was going to say if you Dich-ed someone but that could be miscontrued. 

I would never feel offended if someone I've never met before "tutoie" me (That's so weird!!). If coming from a non native speaker, it will make me smile... if coming from another native speaker, I would be surprised, but no big deal.

I do however like to use the form "vous" even with close friends, there is something elegant and refined in its use... An old boyfriend and I started our relationship with "vous"... and somehow it became so natural we could never switched to "tu" after... and it is still the case today when we talk, many years after.

I know I'm weird... go figure

I did see an error in the new Terminator movie trailer when Sarah Connor saves the life of Kyle Reese as he's about to be killed by a T-1000 Terminator from the future. She says to him, "Viens avec moi si tu veux vivre." Stupidly, he just does what she says, whereas he should have said, "Comment osez-vous !!! On se connaît???!!!" 

This is worthy of a Friday funny.

Rich, some of my friends in Compton, South Central LA/Watts, refer to each other as "Ni----".

Just try addressing one of them that way without knowing them and you would be taught a lesson you will never forget about the different meaning of words when used between people who are close to one another and when used by strangers. That may be a bit extreme, but I hope it makes the point.

If a perfect stranger from another country asked  your mother, can I help you "dear", or "honey", or "babe" she may not take it well, and maybe you wouldn't either, if you were there, and we would agree that it is just so obviously inappropriate. But, why, really, does that seem obvious, if it isn't because it is embedded in the culture?

If I offer help to a "more mature gentleman" in a London train by saying, "hey dude" or "hey bro" want me to help you carry your shit? Might he take offense?

You and you aside, there are rules about the use of the english language during verbal engagement with strangers and with people with whom we are familiar, or don't you ever address strangers by saying "excuse me madam, would you like some help" or "excuse me sir" as opposed to "shit man, let me give you a hand?" as you would tell a friend.

Frankly, your addressing the lady at the train by using "tu" may have been an honest cultural mistake, but your reacting to her culturally reflexive response by saying "do it yourself then" says loads about your inherent manners.

As you have probably experienced, and as confirmed by posters in this thread, most francophones are understanding and will let it pass, though they may be less so when struggling with heavy luggage. What was your excuse?

And would you please stop interpreting the lack of comformity of other languages and cultural norms of non anglos as some sort of bizarre deviation? Why should francophones scrap the tu and vous, instead of anglophones establishing a disitinction? Should we also give up the metric system and use stones and pounds and inches and miles and all these highly logical superior medieval terms?

Hi JR M,

Thanks for your post. A lot of very well reasoned points in there which have honestly given me food for thought. As I wrote in an earlier post, my excuse was my mother was dying and I was on my way to see her for what I knew would be the last time. Me telling an old woman to 'do it herself' for getting what appeared to be a large case down would not have been something my mother would have approved of and no, it wasn't exactly my finest hour but I guess I wasn't thinking like I normally would that day.

I'd just like to clarify a couple of points; the first thing I wrote about the article on tu and vous was 'it shouldn't be scrapped and quite rightly so'. English - to the best of my knowledge - is the only language which doesn't make any distinction between 'yous' and so is the anomoly, not the others. So yes, it is up to anglophones to learn to make the distinction.

Also at no point did I make any suggestion that every country should adopt the imperial system of weights and measures as let's face it, the metric system is far more logical so to be honest there was no need to make that incorrect assumption.

As I have written before, this thread was not intended to be an anti-French rant (if it was my French wife would kill me!) but just to highlight a point of the French language which can be a stumbling block for a lot of anglophones to handle. That's all. Again, thanks for a lot of the points you made.

JR I hope you are sourcing these straw men from Greece to help their dire situation.

To compare the N word to Tu is absurd to the point of hilarity. And actually reinforces rich's point.

If you tried to help someone in london, older or younger, and said hey bro or dude, you wouldnt get a look of disdain. I've seen it many times because london is ridiculous multicultural. They would almost certainly take it pleasantly or neutrally, because you know... you were trying to help. Because the help is the important part, not the grammatical errors. 

Let it be their problem and not yours. Many francophones (esp. the actual French themselves are renowned for their liguistic arrogance and narrow mindedness. There it is. Why? The rigidities of the laguage contributes and a big chip on their shoulder concerning the loss of primacy for the French language adds sauce. I use tu nearly all the time and if I offend someone?... Casse toi.

You seem to forget that babies are born speaking French and therefore their righteoys indignation is perfectly right.

It may be good for you JR M to contemplate the incessant and irreverible decline of your language internationally. I do, often, and it gives me great pleasure.