Login or Sign Up
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Global Forums > General > problem with beeing paid for as independent
 
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
problem with beeing paid for as independent

Hi,


I am registered as indendent in Geneva and I have a problem with being paid for one of my projets by a client. We did not sign any agreement, we only have email exchange where we agreed on an amout to be paid.


Maybe some of you have a similar experience.


What is the best option now to get the payment?


Any tips will be very appreciated.


Btw. is there any institution (Geneva or Switzerland) that (possibly free of charge) can provide some tips for independent in this kinf of situations?

The text you are quoting:

Hi,


I am registered as indendent in Geneva and I have a problem with being paid for one of my projets by a client. We did not sign any agreement, we only have email exchange where we agreed on an amout to be paid.


Maybe some of you have a similar experience.


What is the best option now to get the payment?


Any tips will be very appreciated.


Btw. is there any institution (Geneva or Switzerland) that (possibly free of charge) can provide some tips for independent in this kinf of situations?


Kris RApr 12, 2017 @ 13:16
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
 
17 Replies | 1599 Views      |  Send to friend
 
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: problem with beeing paid for as independent
Post 1

I know a bloke thats big and menacing.... no just kidding! im independant. Send 1st , 2nd,  final reminder by post and then pay the few francs to put them in poursuit if they have not paid up. That usually does the trick, its just a process , get it right and you get your money.  pm me for more info

The text you are quoting:

I know a bloke thats big and menacing.... no just kidding! im independant. Send 1st , 2nd,  final reminder by post and then pay the few francs to put them in poursuit if they have not paid up. That usually does the trick, its just a process , get it right and you get your money.  pm me for more info


Jay C, Apr 13, 2017 @ 13:15
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: problem with beeing paid for as independent
Post 2

Jay C's answer is correct. Make sure you send registered letters, a three letter procedure.



Ensure that your invoice includes your bank account details, including IBAN and a payment deadline. Refer to your initial invoice in each reminder.


Inform your client of what you are doing, without menacing, explaining that once you have sent the reminders, the next step is the "poursuites".


If after the final reminder the client has not paid, immediately go to the poursuites. Any delay can be held against you, in the sense that you are not really eager  to get your money. (even though it should not)


 


According to Swiss law, even an oral agreement is valid, so email details will be a valid document showing the intention to work and to pay from both parties.


 


Good luck,


Nicolaus


 


See example below.


 


Rappel de paiement:



« Dans la frénésie du quotidien, il se peut qu’on oublie une facture. Le fait a sans doute échappé à votre vigilance, mais vous ne vous êtes pas encore acquitté de votre facture du XX janvier 2016. Nous vous prions dès lors de procéder à ce paiement d’ici au XX janvier 2016 ».
« Vous avez peut-être perdu de vue le fait que votre facture du XX janvier 2016 était encore ouverte. Veuillez s’il vous plaît procéder au versement d’ici au XX janvier 2016 ».

1er avertissement:



« Malgré notre rappel de paiement du XX janvier 2016, vous ne vous êtes pas encore acquitté de votre facture d’un montant de CHF XXX. Veuillez s’il vous plaît payer le montant de cette facture d’ici à la fin de cette semaine, ou nous contacter, au cas où vous rencontreriez actuellement des difficultés de paiement ».
« Dans notre courrier du XX janvier 2016, nous vous avons rappelé que la facture de CHF XXX.- est toujours ouverte. Nous n’avons, jusqu’à ce jour, encaissé aucun paiement correspondant à celle-ci. Nous vous prions donc encore une fois de nous faire parvenir le montant de cette facture d’ici à la fin de cette semaine. Si vous ne pouvez pas respecter ce délai, merci de nous contacter, de façon à trouver une solution ensemble ».

2ème avertissement:



« Nous avons déjà attiré votre attention à plusieurs reprises sur le fait que la facture d’un montant de CHF XXX.- était toujours ouverte. Nous n’avons, jusqu’à ce jour, encaissé aucun paiement correspondant à celle-ci. Nous vous demandons une ultime fois, et vous mettons en demeure, de vous acquitter de la facture Nr. XXX d’ici au XX février 2016. Dans le cas contraire, nous mettrons en route la procédure de poursuites sans nouvel avertissement ».
« Vous n’avez pas réagi à notre avertissement du XX janvier 2016. Vous ne nous avez pas non plus contacté d’une manière ou d’une autre. Nous vous demandons donc à nouveau, et vous mettons en demeure, de remplir votre obligation de paiement d’ici au XX février 2016. Dans le cas contraire, nous nous verrions contraints d’entamer une procédure judiciaire ».
The text you are quoting:

Jay C's answer is correct. Make sure you send registered letters, a three letter procedure.



Ensure that your invoice includes your bank account details, including IBAN and a payment deadline. Refer to your initial invoice in each reminder.


Inform your client of what you are doing, without menacing, explaining that once you have sent the reminders, the next step is the "poursuites".


If after the final reminder the client has not paid, immediately go to the poursuites. Any delay can be held against you, in the sense that you are not really eager  to get your money. (even though it should not)


 


According to Swiss law, even an oral agreement is valid, so email details will be a valid document showing the intention to work and to pay from both parties.


 


Good luck,


Nicolaus


 


See example below.


 


Rappel de paiement:



« Dans la frénésie du quotidien, il se peut qu’on oublie une facture. Le fait a sans doute échappé à votre vigilance, mais vous ne vous êtes pas encore acquitté de votre facture du XX janvier 2016. Nous vous prions dès lors de procéder à ce paiement d’ici au XX janvier 2016 ».
« Vous avez peut-être perdu de vue le fait que votre facture du XX janvier 2016 était encore ouverte. Veuillez s’il vous plaît procéder au versement d’ici au XX janvier 2016 ».

1er avertissement:



« Malgré notre rappel de paiement du XX janvier 2016, vous ne vous êtes pas encore acquitté de votre facture d’un montant de CHF XXX. Veuillez s’il vous plaît payer le montant de cette facture d’ici à la fin de cette semaine, ou nous contacter, au cas où vous rencontreriez actuellement des difficultés de paiement ».
« Dans notre courrier du XX janvier 2016, nous vous avons rappelé que la facture de CHF XXX.- est toujours ouverte. Nous n’avons, jusqu’à ce jour, encaissé aucun paiement correspondant à celle-ci. Nous vous prions donc encore une fois de nous faire parvenir le montant de cette facture d’ici à la fin de cette semaine. Si vous ne pouvez pas respecter ce délai, merci de nous contacter, de façon à trouver une solution ensemble ».

2ème avertissement:



« Nous avons déjà attiré votre attention à plusieurs reprises sur le fait que la facture d’un montant de CHF XXX.- était toujours ouverte. Nous n’avons, jusqu’à ce jour, encaissé aucun paiement correspondant à celle-ci. Nous vous demandons une ultime fois, et vous mettons en demeure, de vous acquitter de la facture Nr. XXX d’ici au XX février 2016. Dans le cas contraire, nous mettrons en route la procédure de poursuites sans nouvel avertissement ».
« Vous n’avez pas réagi à notre avertissement du XX janvier 2016. Vous ne nous avez pas non plus contacté d’une manière ou d’une autre. Nous vous demandons donc à nouveau, et vous mettons en demeure, de remplir votre obligation de paiement d’ici au XX février 2016. Dans le cas contraire, nous nous verrions contraints d’entamer une procédure judiciaire ».

nicolaus marshall, Apr 13, 2017 @ 19:48
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: problem with beeing paid for as independent
Post 3

Jay,Nicolaus,many thanks for your support. Great examples of letter.Smile


 


I will start then with registered letters and hopefully regain the money I should have been paid.

The text you are quoting:

Jay,Nicolaus,many thanks for your support. Great examples of letter.Smile


 


I will start then with registered letters and hopefully regain the money I should have been paid.


Kris R, Apr 14, 2017 @ 11:32
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: problem with beeing paid for as independent
Post 4

If I was in your place , would have gone to his office and discuss him in live in front oh his other clients as he for sure will  not appreciate to appear as an escroc in front of his other clients.


 


Good luck.

The text you are quoting:

If I was in your place , would have gone to his office and discuss him in live in front oh his other clients as he for sure will  not appreciate to appear as an escroc in front of his other clients.


 


Good luck.


hesham shafei, Apr 14, 2017 @ 13:43
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: problem with beeing paid for as independent
Post 5

If I was in your place , would have gone to his office and discuss him in live in front oh his other clients as he for sure will  not appreciate to appear as an crook in front of his other clients.


 


 


 


Good luck

The text you are quoting:

If I was in your place , would have gone to his office and discuss him in live in front oh his other clients as he for sure will  not appreciate to appear as an crook in front of his other clients.


 


 


 


Good luck


hesham shafei, Apr 14, 2017 @ 13:44
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: problem with beeing paid for as independent
Post 6

Just go to the offices des poursuites, rue du Stand, next to Tribune de Genève.


He might oppose it, which gives you a chance to go in front of a judge and rest your case.

The text you are quoting:

Just go to the offices des poursuites, rue du Stand, next to Tribune de Genève.


He might oppose it, which gives you a chance to go in front of a judge and rest your case.


hay_, Apr 14, 2017 @ 17:19
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: problem with beeing paid for as independent
Post 7

Just go to the offices des poursuites, rue du Stand, next to Tribune de Genève.

He might oppose it, which gives you a chance to go in front of a judge and rest your case.


Apr 14, 17 17:19

Hi Hay,


so you mean I do not need to send 3 letters above and can go directly to Offices des poursuites?

The text you are quoting:

Hi Hay,


so you mean I do not need to send 3 letters above and can go directly to Offices des poursuites?


Kris R, Apr 15, 2017 @ 17:23
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: problem with beeing paid for as independent
Post 8

Hi,


 I am not too a proffesional in the subject, but you have a client, whom you only have contacted by email, never in person?


If only by email, can you be sure he is a Geneva resident or even physically present in Swizerland?


At best if he has a company Geneva or swiss registered, you should follow the protocol given by Jay C, with the model letters Nicolaus was kind enought to share on this blog.


However...


if you have no company details of this guy in Switzerland or even in the EU, you will have been fooled..


 

The text you are quoting:

Hi,


 I am not too a proffesional in the subject, but you have a client, whom you only have contacted by email, never in person?


If only by email, can you be sure he is a Geneva resident or even physically present in Swizerland?


At best if he has a company Geneva or swiss registered, you should follow the protocol given by Jay C, with the model letters Nicolaus was kind enought to share on this blog.


However...


if you have no company details of this guy in Switzerland or even in the EU, you will have been fooled..


 


Robert L, Apr 15, 2017 @ 22:48
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: problem with beeing paid for as independent
Post 9

If I was in your place , would have gone to his office and discuss him in live in front oh his other clients as he for sure will  not appreciate to appear as an crook in front of his other clients.

 

 

 

Good luck


Apr 14, 17 13:44

This would be illegal in many countries, and I would guess that it would be here too.

The text you are quoting:

This would be illegal in many countries, and I would guess that it would be here too.


Andy C, Apr 16, 2017 @ 12:20
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: problem with beeing paid for as independent
Post 10

TThx Andy for your post, I would be interested to know the legal basis of your opinion if possible,


 


Thx a lot in advance 


 


Regards. 

The text you are quoting:

TThx Andy for your post, I would be interested to know the legal basis of your opinion if possible,


 


Thx a lot in advance 


 


Regards. 


hesham shafei, Apr 16, 2017 @ 20:22
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: problem with beeing paid for as independent
Post 11

TThx Andy for your post, I would be interested to know the legal basis of your opinion if possible,

 

Thx a lot in advance 

 

Regards. 


Apr 16, 17 20:22

http://www.frc.ch/articles/a-quand-la-fin-des-methodes-de-cow-boys%E2%80%89/


 


your idea of visiting the guy in person is considered as harrasment. See the attached article about one debt management company explaining their illegal practice quite well.


Also, if your harrassment would result in the loss of  client, he could even sue you for damages...


This legal system is not built on the public naming and shaming. 


Europe has moved away from this pretty mediaval practice some tome ago.


 


 


 

The text you are quoting:

http://www.frc.ch/articles/a-quand-la-fin-des-methodes-de-cow-boys%E2%80%89/


 


your idea of visiting the guy in person is considered as harrasment. See the attached article about one debt management company explaining their illegal practice quite well.


Also, if your harrassment would result in the loss of  client, he could even sue you for damages...


This legal system is not built on the public naming and shaming. 


Europe has moved away from this pretty mediaval practice some tome ago.


 


 


 


Reka Y, Apr 16, 2017 @ 21:09
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: problem with beeing paid for as independent
Post 12

TThx Andy for your post, I would be interested to know the legal basis of your opinion if possible,

 

Thx a lot in advance 

 

Regards. 


Apr 16, 17 20:22

In all of Europe, plus Australia and The US, you would be breaking privacy laws by disclosing financial information relating to the debtor.  Most Western countries also have laws or regulations (usually contained within their laws covering provision of credit) prohibiting the harrassment of debtors.


N.B.  I am not a lawyer.  You should take professional advice if this affects you.


 


Andy

The text you are quoting:

In all of Europe, plus Australia and The US, you would be breaking privacy laws by disclosing financial information relating to the debtor.  Most Western countries also have laws or regulations (usually contained within their laws covering provision of credit) prohibiting the harrassment of debtors.


N.B.  I am not a lawyer.  You should take professional advice if this affects you.


 


Andy


Andy C, Apr 16, 2017 @ 21:15
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: problem with beeing paid for as independent
Post 13

https://www.letemps.ch/economie/2013/06/24/methodes-musclees-societes-recouvrement 


Being myself a lawyer ,I don't believe that such a law exists in swizertland or at least that debt collectors don't real care about it !Thx anyways Andy from you I learnt that such laws exist elsewhere.


 

The text you are quoting:

https://www.letemps.ch/economie/2013/06/24/methodes-musclees-societes-recouvrement 


Being myself a lawyer ,I don't believe that such a law exists in swizertland or at least that debt collectors don't real care about it !Thx anyways Andy from you I learnt that such laws exist elsewhere.


 


hesham shafei, Apr 16, 2017 @ 21:45
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: problem with beeing paid for as independent
Post 14

it is not about believing or not. A debtor also has the right to be protected and not being harrassed.


Let`s take an example.


You cannot pay your bills because your clients do not pay you.


Are you entitled to be protected?


In accordance with your belief as a lawyer your suppliers could visit you at your law office / home and could yell at you....


The new client who would definitely pay you as it would leave your office without giving you the assignment that would pull you through and would also pass onto other possible clients the news that you are not a trustworthy lawyer.


Would you say that this was a correct thing to do given your circumstances?


As a start we are talking about the protection of personal rights.


This can have criminal and civil law consequences in most legal systems. (libel to defame the person and damage his or her reputation or livelihood, etc.)


Let`s take again the example of you as a lawyer.


You could not pay a bill of CHF500. The client you lost would have meant CHF50000. Is the yelling by the supplier is in proportion with the loss of CHF 50 000?


I am sure you agree that the Swiss way is a more civilized one.


Although not without fault. if you follow the news in French, you will see that some people due to administrative mistakes had to defend themselves after a poursuit procedure and it takes years to clear their names. In the meantime, not possible to change houses, no loans are granted as per the general practice as a poursuit is registered under your name for 5 yrs in the system.


So without all the yelling, this system can be quite "forceful" and offers the possibility to handle it in a more peaceful way.


Sure, it takes time but one always has the right to ask for s downpayment as well.


Ps. I copied the article in French about debt collection practice as it pretty much summarizes what is not ok to do including visits at work place, sms, calls as it is considered as harrassment. ;)


 

The text you are quoting:

it is not about believing or not. A debtor also has the right to be protected and not being harrassed.


Let`s take an example.


You cannot pay your bills because your clients do not pay you.


Are you entitled to be protected?


In accordance with your belief as a lawyer your suppliers could visit you at your law office / home and could yell at you....


The new client who would definitely pay you as it would leave your office without giving you the assignment that would pull you through and would also pass onto other possible clients the news that you are not a trustworthy lawyer.


Would you say that this was a correct thing to do given your circumstances?


As a start we are talking about the protection of personal rights.


This can have criminal and civil law consequences in most legal systems. (libel to defame the person and damage his or her reputation or livelihood, etc.)


Let`s take again the example of you as a lawyer.


You could not pay a bill of CHF500. The client you lost would have meant CHF50000. Is the yelling by the supplier is in proportion with the loss of CHF 50 000?


I am sure you agree that the Swiss way is a more civilized one.


Although not without fault. if you follow the news in French, you will see that some people due to administrative mistakes had to defend themselves after a poursuit procedure and it takes years to clear their names. In the meantime, not possible to change houses, no loans are granted as per the general practice as a poursuit is registered under your name for 5 yrs in the system.


So without all the yelling, this system can be quite "forceful" and offers the possibility to handle it in a more peaceful way.


Sure, it takes time but one always has the right to ask for s downpayment as well.


Ps. I copied the article in French about debt collection practice as it pretty much summarizes what is not ok to do including visits at work place, sms, calls as it is considered as harrassment. ;)


 


Reka Y, Apr 17, 2017 @ 02:06
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: problem with beeing paid for as independent
Post 15

Small update - I called Office de Poursuites and they told me that I have no obligation to send 3 letters. I can directly fill in the formulaire de poursuite  (Réquisition de poursuite):


http://ge.ch/opf/media/opf/files/fichiers/publications/requisition.pdf


As far as I know, my client can refuse requisition from Office de Poursuites. And then I need to go to court which, I heard, is expensive and long process.


Do anyone knows how effective is Office de Poursuites in Geneva or court in Geneva? How long it can take until the issue would be solved?

The text you are quoting:

Small update - I called Office de Poursuites and they told me that I have no obligation to send 3 letters. I can directly fill in the formulaire de poursuite  (Réquisition de poursuite):


http://ge.ch/opf/media/opf/files/fichiers/publications/requisition.pdf


As far as I know, my client can refuse requisition from Office de Poursuites. And then I need to go to court which, I heard, is expensive and long process.


Do anyone knows how effective is Office de Poursuites in Geneva or court in Geneva? How long it can take until the issue would be solved?


Kris R, May 13, 2017 @ 13:31
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: problem with beeing paid for as independent
Post 16

As a professional Credit Manager with over 25 years experience in this field and who provides training for teams of Credit Controllers internationally, it's embarrasing to see how some people in this thread automatically revert to the idea of a shaven headed, tattooed leather-jacket-wearing thug with a baseball bat and rotweiller, going round to 'yell' at people. Most professionals I know are nothing like this.


 


During my time actively dealing with collecting payment from clients I think i actually got to the point of sueing people no more than 10 times. The reason being I was able to reach an agreement or reason with them on why it would be beneficial to pay. Most of the time you can just arrange a time to visit and calmly discuss the matter, come to an arrangement on payment, etc. The one thing that does make me cringe a bit is the lack of agreement in the first place, no invoice being sent, etc which would make your life a lot easier.


As each case and circumstances are different, if you'd like me to help then feel free to pm me.

The text you are quoting:

As a professional Credit Manager with over 25 years experience in this field and who provides training for teams of Credit Controllers internationally, it's embarrasing to see how some people in this thread automatically revert to the idea of a shaven headed, tattooed leather-jacket-wearing thug with a baseball bat and rotweiller, going round to 'yell' at people. Most professionals I know are nothing like this.


 


During my time actively dealing with collecting payment from clients I think i actually got to the point of sueing people no more than 10 times. The reason being I was able to reach an agreement or reason with them on why it would be beneficial to pay. Most of the time you can just arrange a time to visit and calmly discuss the matter, come to an arrangement on payment, etc. The one thing that does make me cringe a bit is the lack of agreement in the first place, no invoice being sent, etc which would make your life a lot easier.


As each case and circumstances are different, if you'd like me to help then feel free to pm me.


Rich, May 13, 2017 @ 14:45
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
Only members can see photos
Only members can see names and photos
Re: problem with beeing paid for as independent
Post 17

As a professional Credit Manager with over 25 years experience in this field and who provides training for teams of Credit Controllers internationally, it's embarrasing to see how some people in this thread automatically revert to the idea of a shaven headed, tattooed leather-jacket-wearing thug with a baseball bat and rotweiller, going round to 'yell' at people. Most professionals I know are nothing like this.

 

During my time actively dealing with collecting payment from clients I think i actually got to the point of sueing people no more than 10 times. The reason being I was able to reach an agreement or reason with them on why it would be beneficial to pay. Most of the time you can just arrange a time to visit and calmly discuss the matter, come to an arrangement on payment, etc. The one thing that does make me cringe a bit is the lack of agreement in the first place, no invoice being sent, etc which would make your life a lot easier.

As each case and circumstances are different, if you'd like me to help then feel free to pm me.


May 13, 17 14:45

Thanks Rich, I sent a PM to you and I am looking forward to hearing from you. I prefer to avoid taking any legal steps, but I wish to understand what are my rights.


In the past I had similar situation and I avoid any further steps, in the final effect loosing money/time. But this time I wish to do sth about it.

The text you are quoting:

Thanks Rich, I sent a PM to you and I am looking forward to hearing from you. I prefer to avoid taking any legal steps, but I wish to understand what are my rights.


In the past I had similar situation and I avoid any further steps, in the final effect loosing money/time. But this time I wish to do sth about it.


Kris R, May 13, 2017 @ 15:46
Your Reply:
Reply  Reply With Quote  Thank Poster
! Report to Admin
17 Replies | 1599 Views      |  Send to friend
 
 
 
Feedback Form