My wife and I only have experience with an agency. I think there would be 2 reasons to hire one; time commitment and negotiating power. If you have enough time to search yourself your should do fine there. But I suspect it helps to have an agency work for you to get you in at certain apartments. Not sure how much of a factor this is.

Apartment owners here all have their own preferences what kind of person they want. It's impossible to tell you anything useful. I know people who spent 6 months looking and *one* who found an apartment in a week. We spent 4 months in a temporary apartment before we found our current place.

Concerning safety: As far as I know, the only place where a woman alone might feel unsafe in Geneva is Paquis (between the lake and the station).

Hi Katherine,

Recently went through this ordeal moving from Germany to Geneva. I spent about a month on the internet hitting it hard. I ended getting lucky here on the Glocals classifieds, and we now have an awesome apartment In France 15 min drive from Geneva.

I would suggest keep checking Glocals, the english forum for the French side, if you consider living in France and commuting, (considerably cheaper) http://riviera.angloinfo.com/forum/register.asp?mode=DoIt

Also start talking to new work collegues etc, see if you can find someone leaving a flat that you could take.

Lastly, be careful of scams. The Nigerian email scam artists have apartment listings on craigslist etc, if it looks too good to be true, it probably is. Googling phone numbers listed can help a lot to tell you if its real or not.

It is a painstaking process, but now i'm looking out teh window at the Sunshine and Jura mountains, its worth it.

Let me know if I can help at all.

Kev

You could check the "classifieds" on this website. My friend Devi G is remitting an appartement this week which is nice and well located.

Hello Katherine, 

I guess I was one of the very few lucky ones to have found a place in Geneva within a couple of hours! I wanted to start by saying this to share some optimism :-) The estate agencies here (in general) have a pretty bad reputation...house/apartment showings are organized for everybody to come all at once and the agency usually fixes the time whether it is convenient for you or not (I'm not saying this is always the case).

Having said that, I found my apartment on the glocals classifieds and was lucky enough to deal straight with the owner. If you have no luck finding a place on your own whether through glocals or not, I have a relocation agency that I could refer you to. In the end the cost of using a relocation agency compared to a realtor might level off in that you might find yourself in a situation where you would need to give some "extra" incentive to the realtor (who doesn't always work in your best interest). I could also refer you to a personal concierge/broker who can do the search for you through her network of contacts. I guess my advise would be to avoid the realtors (just heard too many negatives about them and people being disappointed about their services, just seems like many of them don't play a fair game).  

Feel free to send me a message. I would be happy to put you in contact with some people.

Good luck.
Regards.  

Thanks all for your helpful comments.  It's encouraging to hear that it is possible to find accommodation independently with hard work and a bit of luck.    

Some regies have offered to skype or call, which makes me suspect they are not wholly legitimate despite a fancy logo on immostreet/homegate.  They seem TOO friendly?!

We are leaning towards the option of a relocation agent, mainly because we have 3 more weeks in the UK before we move. I don't fancy the idea of flying out for viewings with the likely result of a pile of rejected applications or being the victim of some bogus scam.  I feel like I'm just spinning the wheels until we arrive in Geneva - talk about paralysis by analysis!

I have a couple of follow on questions and would be grateful if someone could advise:

1)  Are the forms/lease usually available in English?

2)  I heard that properties which ARE available on immostreet/homegate type websites are because they are overpriced otherwise they would have been snapped up before making it on the website.  Is this generally the case?

3)  Ideas for serviced apartments - would prefer to stay in central Geneva.  Most I've emailed are already full.  Mont Blanc has vacancies but has very mixed reviews.

Thanks again.

You will be lucky to be able to move straight into a place. Are you set on living on the Swiss side of the frontier (perhaps for work permit reasons?). Otherwise it is not too hard to find on the French side but you will need to demonstrate that you can pay the rent.

If you are not in Geneva a relocation agent would be useful.

There are also serviced appts. on the french side, Archamps I think has them. Not bad to explore the Saleve area during the summer. Or why not rent a mobile home :-)

[quote]

have read unsavoury comments about La Jonction, but there are some nice looking properties on the waterfront.  Is this an area where I would feel safe to walk around at night?

[/quote]

The main station should be avoided (as well as the Paquis mentioned already). My wife reckons you should avoid parts of Eaux Vives.

La Jonction, like quite a few bits of Geneva, has some very run down buildings but it has never struck me as a no go zone.

A friend of mine lives up at the top of the Grottes and has drug dealers working out of his car park!

We have just returned to Geneva after 3 years away so I thought we had a clue what we were getting ourselves into in terms of finding an apartment, I knew the city, the regies, the system, the prices etc etc and it was still a nightmare. We had all the paperwork all sorted ready to go (we look good on paper) and still we were rejected for properties, one in particular we were strung along for 2 weeks completely given the impression we were getting it and then it was just pulled out from under us no explanation or justification and weirdly they still haven't rented it. However finally after 2 months we move into a new place tomorrow.

Good luck with an agent but when it all comes down to it the landlord will make the decision on the basis of the information collected and provided by the regie and if they don't want you that's it, if the regie doesn't like you then that obvioulsy doesn't help and if they don't like your agent then same same.

As for your other questions none of the documents will be in English. Properties on immostreet etc are expensive but unfortunately that is the rate and people will pay it so the rents just keep going up and up, you can try and offer less in yourt application for an apartment but my guess is if you have any competition and they are willing to pay the full price then you won't be getting that apartment. There are a huge amount of websites and a few groups like this that do classifieds, try them all, some regies are good at keeping there own site up to date but they don't bother to take things off the "combined sites" once theya re rented so a quick check of their site is a good idea before getting your hopes up.

Some regies are now fining people if you submit an application and then withdraw it, so be careful not to just apply for everything as when you get one and have to withdraw the others you may get stung.

In terms of places to stay short term I can highly recommend www.bnbcoppet.com we have just spent 2 months in one of their places and it has been great, just to be able to stay in a comfortable, clean, totally equipped place not jammed into a tiny hotel room etc was great, it has made the 2 months of apartment hunting and bureaucracy negotiating reasonably bearable.

A reality check, as requested...Sorry man...

Thanks again all for your replies.  This is now making me to lose sleep and is causing warring factions so I am turning to glocals once more for advice.  There is camp regie (partner) and camp independent (me).  What's getting my goat is that after checking my spam box it turns out I got positive responses to the majority of my 24 inquiries with regies.  So, on 1 hand I've heard many horror stories about finding a place to rent in Geneva independently, but on the other hand, I've got all these lovely reponses from regies saying the apartment is available, come for a viewing etc etc. Because it seems so easy so far, it makes me think we don't need to hire a relocation agent, but am I reading the signs incorrectly? That an 80% positive response for viewings is no indication of just how difficult it will get?  (I am guessing the tricky bit will be filling out the application in French ourselves.. gulp.. and having this singled out of a bunch of 30 applications??).

Sorry I seem to ask the same question over and over, I am probably being really optimistic/naive about the process and just need someone to shake me by the shoulder and tell me to wake up!?!

Dear Katherine

In a nutshell here's how it goes I hope this healps and maybe you can get some sleep, its not insurmountable its just not easy, but ultimately we all find a place to stay.

1) You see a place you like on the internet or in a advert somewhere, you contact the person advertising it (probably a Regie or could be a private let or sub-let) if is a Regie is goes something like this

2) The Regie responds either a) they will meet you at the apartment to view or b) you go to their office pick up a key drop off a piece of ID and you head off on your own to view the place (normally only if it is already empty) or c) they give you the name of the tennant and the phone number and you have to ring and arrange a time with the tenant (this can be a bit daunting if you don't speak french) if you beg sometimes they will ring for you.

3) You see it, you like it you tell the regie this. They will give you a from to fill in (online or paper form) the form is simple name address price you are willing to pay employers names address referees etc it not too complicated. Then you will have to have what is termed a dossier this includes a copy of your work contracts, a copy of your residence permits, proof of ID ie copy of your passports and in some cases a copy of a thing called an Attestation de non-poursuite (this is bascially a form that says no-one is chasing you for money- but as you haven't lived in Geneva before you won't have one of these so don't panic). My french is rubbish and the form hasn't sent me into a tail spin yet 9also there is always the option of asking someone just to make sure you are reading it correctly)

4) I suggest you have electronic and paper copies of all of this stuff ready to hand over at short notice.

5) This all gets submitted, the regie will tell you how many other applications have been submitted to the landlord and whether you have a remote chance, but remember they work for the landlord not for you. The landlord has 10 days to respond to your application. Sometimes landlord have already made specific criteria for tennants to the regie ie no kids, no pets, couple only etc the regie will also tell you this is you ask.

6) If they accept you then they will come back probably with an email with a contract in French (get someone to read it for you although these look standard there can be some strange stuff in there especially around when you can leave, how much notice you will have to give, what you can and can't do to the apartment, if there are any strange rules with the building like not pets, no BBQ on the balcony, no noise after 10pm, no bicycles in public places, no feeding the wild life etc etc) it will also indicate the extras you are paying each month like hot water, building controlled heating, parking etc

7) You sign the contract you pay one months rent in advance, you pay the regie to make name plates for the front door, the main entrance and the letter box (about 175CHF) the swiss payment system is a little strange to the unitiatied but online its quite easy. You then have to stump up with your three months guarantee you can either set up a bank account and have the name of the regie and your name on this and then the money is locked until you leave and can only be released with the Regie authorisation OR you contact swisscaution or firstcaution these two companies will gurantee your 3 months bond for an annual fee ie you don't stump up with the cash you just pay an insurance effectively.

8) You will need to have personal house contents insurance.

9) All signed and sealed you then do an inspection of the apartment at this point you have to note every tiny little thing wrong with it, and I mean a minute scratch on a floor or wall as this will otherwsie be attributed to you when you leave and the cost will be deducted from the bond, this can be very expensive a hole in the wall from hanging a picture will be 25CHF, don't gloss over this inspection it is important. It will take something like 2 or more hours to do this.

10) You move in careful not to add to the bumps and bruises on the apartment.....

The only thing that is made slightly easier by having an agent help you with finding a place is that they contact the regie in the first place, on the whole though it appears you haven't had an issue with this aspect so is it really worth another months rent to get someone to ring for you? They can read the internet as well as you can and really from what the regies I have meet have told me most of them no no more than what the regie is advertising unless they have links in a particular community with a lot of independent private advertising landlords (which to be honest in geneva are not that common).

Sub-letting both offical and unofficial is a whole other story.

Regies on the whole are not that bad, their are some that have a bad reputation and I would avoid these if you could, when you are thinking of dealing with one ask for some advice again and you are sure to get responses about what they are like to deal with. Obviously some landlords chose these regies because they are known to be very picky. Regies basically perform 3 jobs, they get you in, they deal with your problems such as oven breaking down etc when you are in and then when you leave they keep you to the letter to the contract and do everything to make sure you pay for any "damage". Note some contracts also have a clause that when you leave you have to provide 3 suitable candidates to take over the rental of the apartment and their fully complete dossiers submitted otherwise you will lose bond money for each month the place remains vacant (this is why you often see adverts from the current tennants), this is a nasty trick as the regie is effectively getting you to do their job and you are also paying for the pleasure. This is important to know if this is in your contract!

I hope that this isn't too scarey and it helps you.

Happy apartment hunting.

Sarah

Hi Katherine, just a few quick answers to your questions.

I wouldn't qualify La Jonction as a dangerous place but there is a very high concentration of racaille indeed.

Forms from régies are always in french, so better get some help for filling them.

Prices on Immostreet.ch and Homegate.ch aren't higher that the standard -- unfortunately, it's the rent prices in Geneva that are very high.  Some time ago I actually managed to get a very good deal on Homegate.  Ads on these sites are both from private people and régies; you should check the ads every day to ensure you don't miss any opportunity.  Bottom line, you can indeed find a nice apartment on those sites but it takes motivation, constance, and luck.

Keep smiling, and be optimistic

Don't forget.. it is much, much easier in France - basically, you point and choose. Cheaper, too - but more transport, of course.

Yes, that's v helpful!!! Thanks Sarah

This is Geneva, not London, nor NewYork.  I've lived her ten years and I've never associated Geneva and the term unsafe - that would be an oxymoron.  Like any predisposed "moron" though there will always be anywhere people getting drunk and what not and consequently seem menacing or ill adjusted.  Any more meaningful trouble that ever takes place in Geneva is between the enthnically slanted communities.  So if you're a white man you should be safe, if you're not you might get your weed a little cheaper. 

Another reality check...

The above posted flats appear to be furnished and in the center of town. They also appear to be posted by the same landlord as posted by Alexis B above.  They are not necessarily representative of the market. Center of town and furnished is always going to be more expensive, particularly inside the walls of the old town and around rive..

Most important advice is to do the most thorough walk-through possible, as mentioned above (note every single scratch or defect) --- and -- to join ASLOCA, the renters' association -- at

http://www.asloca.ch/?q=node/57. Meet with their lawyers within the first month of your move in to see whether you can qualify for a rent reduction.  Do not ask the regie whether the rent can be reduced before you move in because they will probably eliminate you from the list of prospective candidates.

Reply to translator I love your comments on Glocals..,but  join Asloca to get a a reduction for the rent is that really why they are there? If there is a legal issue between the tender and the administrator I would say yes but if you visit the aparment and then you decided to you would like to rent it you also accept the price even it might expensive. I know for a fact that some regie dont work with certain ppl or nationalities as they have a reputation to complain about the rent... 

And to Katherine you can contact us we do help in house hunting and we do work with private clients also, no charges upfront..  You can find out more about us at www.harmelingconsultancy.com.

Good luck and welcome to Geneva...

In answer to your comment, I would say, yes, it is appropriate to ask for a rent reduction if the landlord has increased the price more than it should have been from the previous tenant.  That is an unfair renting practice and that is why the law is there.

If the regies discriminate against certain people or nationalities, then it is all the more reason to join ASLOCA.  A smart consumer should not be punished and regie should not discriminate, even though we all know that some do.

I have heard good things about your particular consultancy, but I have also heard some horror stories about other relocation agencies.  In my opinion, some relocation agencies are much more concerned about their relationship with the regies than they are with their clients -- who are footing the bill.

Yes it is unfair to increase the rent even in cases that there was no work done..  but keep you fingers from those..  And also it is asame that some ppl get discrimanated or are judged because of there nationality.. ( I am dutch myself and no I dont smoke... lol )

For our services we do put our clients central we will never push them into a apartment as then for us the case is closed, we will try to get them a apartment where they are feeling happy, with the comment that it is very hard to find the perfect place in Geneva..  We do also building relationship and partner ships with regies and private house owners as that gives us a head start when we apply for our clients...

I found the process to be easy.

1. Get an agent. We used PackinPex and Immigra.

2. Apartment hunting is an interview process. So wear a suit and bring your A game with regard to social graces.

3. Have the money and your paperwork ready. Don't waste other peoples time.

In one day we looked at 8 apartments. Applied for 5 apartments. We were accepted at all five. We got our first choice. Ironically, it was one that we found on the internet before we came on our house hunting trip. We emailed them and they never responded. We had our agent contact them and we got an immediate showing.

Those are the facts that we encountered on our search.

Hi,

I am in the same situation, loking for an apartment on a short notice need to have one by  mid July. I have read all the forum  threads  and now starting to realize what an uphil battle this will be. However, everyone seems to mention the documents, working/living permit. My question is do I need to apply for these before I start house hunt. Will anybody rent me an apartment without these documents? And how can I apply when I do not have an adress yet. I have a Dutch pasport so I assumend that I do not need to have a permit in advance, (as an Eu citizen I can stay in up to three months) but only after I find the place.

Many thanks for help.

Jasna,

I have no idea about the EU thing. Because Switzerland is not part of th EU.

The first thing you need to get is an entry Visa. After that you can get a B permit. You might have to sublet with a roomate while you wait for your permit to be accepted. We stayed in a hotel.  From what I understand Geneva is easier than other places to get the process going. If you can get your employer to vouch for you, that's a very good thing. Especially if they might be willing to initially hold the lease for you while you get sorted out. The Swiss bureaucrats are surprisingly efficient at the process. You'll be fine.

Try craigslist for apartment searching. You might get lucky.

"If you move to Geneva (Switzerland) then the chances are one of your first homes will be a sublet apartment. Here are some cautionary tales and bits of advice based on personal experience:

Most people find it hard finding an apartment in a new city, but Geneva poses particular problems because of the acute housing shortage. One reason is the excess of demand compared to supply. Another (and rarely mentioned) reason is the tendency for people to hold onto apartments they've let forever. And I mean forever. They literally think about passing them on to their grandchildren, while in the meantime subletting them - usually illegally - to stupid foreigners.

Don't think you can't simply avoid this scam. Chances are, you're going to have to settle for a sublet at first because signing a real tenancy with a regie is almost impossible. I did and so did most of the people I know. Sometimes it's fine. Most of the time there are problems. These include being "found out" by the regie; being ripped off by the actual tenant (your landlord); and living with broken appliances and other problems because your landlord won't fix them and you can't go to the regie.

Luckily there's help for you in the form of ASLOCA, the tenants' association. Everybody should join ASLOCA. I did and they helped me immensely to solve the problems I had with my landlady, let's call her Sylvia Boska. Here's what happened:

_ I moved into a small, centrally-located, furnished apartment in January 2007. Sylvia said it was a legal sublet and I signed a contract for 1,800 francs rent a month. We renewed the contract in early 2008.

_ A few months later we discovered damp in one of the walls. Instead of sending a workman from the regie, Sylvia brought round her own guy. I should have smelled a rat.

_ In late 2008 I had a problem with a neighbor and called the regie. They informed me I wasn't living there legally and Sylvia had significantly overcharged me on the rent. Sylvia, who had since married and moved to Argentina, admitted she'd lied to me, but saw no reason to lower the rent. The regie agreed to a one-year sublet and in the meantime I contacted ASLOCA about the rent.

_ After about a year of legal wrangling Sylvia was forced by the court to lower the rent to the legally permitted amount of 1,540 francs. She refused to pay back the money she'd overcharged us so we went to court again and were awared the 6,000+ francs she owed us. At which point, in late May 2010, she sent us an eviction notice.

_ Without a valid contract or the support of the regie, it's impossible to avoid eviction. We could have gone to court to get a stay of execution, but by sheer luck and pleading we found another apartment nearby and agreed to move out at the end of June. Sylvia still owes us over 6,000 francs, though the court has ordered her to pay it back to us by the end of the year.

The above is an absolutely typical example of the kind of problems you'll face with a Geneva sublet. Now some might say we should have kept quiet, paid the overpriced rent and nothing would have happened. Maybe. Or maybe she would have taken a dislike to us for some other reason and turfed us out, sans contract, on a whim. In my view it's always worth consulting ASLOCA and fighting for your legal rights, because failure to do so by too many people is one of the reasons the housing market in Geneva is such a mess.

Don't be surprised if the person who sublets an apartment to you illegally turns out to be a two-faced, lying, greedy and manipulative individual. Arm yourself well and get support: join ASLOCA; meticulously document your correspondence; follow the rules and the court will side with you".

 How to survive a Geneva sublet: http://www.frankjordans.com/genevasublet.htm

Thanks Translator/Marcus E - I have added 'register with ASLOCA' to the 'to do' list.

Jasna A - we are in a similar situation.  I strongly suggest you place searching for temp accom as a top priority.  We looked for temp accom 3 weeks prior to our arrival and the serviced apartments in Geneva were fully booked.  We are having to stay in serviced apartment in France.

I have a feeling we will need to stay in temp accom for quite some time as I don't think we look good on paper.  Reasons being:

1) My partner will not be on an official work permit. He will be on a temporary permit as a posted worker for the first 90 days and would like to have this extended if possible.  If not, he will apply for a L permit after 90 days.

2) I hold an Australian passport. I have applied for a UK passport but this won't arrive for another 1-2 months. Until such time, I won't be able to look for work and as a result, won't have a work permit - and as a result, won't be able to apply for rental property (we are not considering subletting at this point in time).

If anyone could confirm or otherwise on the above it would be appreciated.

And another question:  I've tried emailing the Geneva Canton authorities to find out whether as an Australian who won't be working for the first couple of months I need some sort of permit (as a tourist, Australians can stay up to 3 months) to indicate my intention to live/rent in Geneva (should be sorted once my UK passport arrives) but I just got an email back referring me to their website - which I obviously looked at before emailing them.  Can anyone shed any light on this?

We are coming only for a six months assignment, and I am starting to wonder whether it is worth to go trough all the trouble for this short period or should I just go and rent something in France. If we are lucky I shall get another job or extension of the contract and them we can look for a  long term space. My daughter also needs to go to school, so I need to sort our where we should live fast. Katherine, could you please let me know where you found your temp accommodation I also checked Citadines but they are fully booked for July. BTW, my husband is also Aussi but we got him a Dutch passport, so at least that problem solved. I do not know where you live now but I would call the Swiss embassy in your country or Australian in Switzerland with your question regarding work permit. 

Jasna - I know how you feel!  We are planning on being in Geneva for around 1 year and I am tempted to just stay in the serviced apartment in france!!  I will PM you the details.  Citadines were booked out when we looked as well.  It's nuts.

Geez, this lady sounds awful. My boyfriend had an illegal sublet and we are STILL trying to get our  deposit back from the guy who we rented from. We also were without a bathtub and toilet for a month, without any warning, when some construction guys showed up and turned the apartment inside out. 

So, definitely follow Translator's advice: do a walk through, NOTE EVERYTHING, sign a contract, sign up with ASLOCA, and don't be afraid to get tough if the subletting party tried to pull a fast one. 

Good luck.

For a year I think you'd be better renting a "permenant" let on the French side. You can always leave after the year is up even if the contract is for 3 years (beware notice periods). That said you will need all you bank information, work permit etc.

Depending on where you work it is quite feasible to rent in Aix les Bains and Chambery as there is a train connection to Cornavin which is not expensive if you take the monthly abonnement. Even Lyon is practical if you want to live in a real city with some life. If you live in Bellegarde people will practically beg you to rent their appts. Annecy is ok by car but expensive and parking is impossible in geneva unless you have a private space at work.

Hi David - we did consider France initially, however it made tax etc quite complicated from my partner's perspective.  If we can't sort something out after a couple of months then we might need to revisit this option so thanks for listing the different possibilities.

Back again...

I'm sure Translator knows the answer to this... but isn't there a way to call this person out? Maybe I missed something, but those flats look identical. If she doesn't screw you personally on this trick, she will screw someone else. Maybe report to admins??

All these Geneva Flat hunt forums are full of frustration stories: what would be good to hear is success stories. I am personally looking since beginning April 2011, I have a good dossier: I look good on paper but still did not get what I want. My advice invest in a relocation agent: you will find your dream apartment but the chances that you get it are very slim and with time your frustration will get you. What I found most frustrating is the lack of information : no photos no description : this cost time and nerves- get the relocation agent to filter for you and be clear about your criteria (Harmerling is not bad) Some people succeed but they have the right advisors and they are aware of the waiting line that goes up to 6 months: don't be patient just be prepared to make compromises. I agree to what was said about those holding apartments they have no right to forever: if these will be relased a correct rental market price will be reflected: it's simply a vicious circle: there must be an online system or database to see if someone has 5 apartment under his name? are we in 2011? or in the country of the secret bancaire ;-)

Thank you Careena for your feedback.I have been reading a lot about the Schengen agreement this past week.

We US citizens are held to a much higher standard with regard to getting a residency and work permits for Switzerland. Including criminal background checks and certifications from law enforcement agencies in the US. As well as fingerprinting and biometrics. Plus the usual sponsor and work verifications.

However I disagree with you about Craigslist. I have used it dozens and dozens of times to lease space, apartments, buy cars, bicycles, watercraft, electronics, books, games, movies, fixtures, and even to sell some of my own items. Never in my life have I ever been scammed. And I can tell you this. It's NOT because I am lucky.

You can robbed on craigslist, ebay, the local paper , at Sothebys's or even on Glocals. There will always be scam artist anywhere you go in the world. And there will also always be idiots that get suckered. Unfortunately there is no way to make a bad person honest. Just as there is also no cure for stupid.

The bottom line is that the correct way to get an apartment in Switzerland is to buy one. Or get an agent to protect your interests if you are going to rent. Otherwise you had better be smart and do the due diligence yourself.

Or you just might find yourself on the forum board of Glocals complaining about something you could have easily avoided by exercising a bit of caution and spending a little more money.

An updated reality check guys:

"How to survive a Geneva sublet

Most people find it hard finding an apartment in a new city, but Geneva poses particular problems because of the acute housing shortage. One reason is the excess of demand compared to supply. Another (and rarely mentioned) reason is the tendency for people to hold onto apartments they've let forever. And I mean forever. They literally think about passing them on to their grandchildren, while in the meantime subletting them - usually illegally - to stupid foreigners.

Don't think you can't simply avoid this scam. Chances are, you're going to have to settle for a sublet at first because signing a real tenancy with a regie is almost impossible. I did and so did most of the people I know. Sometimes it's fine. Most of the time there are problems. These include being "found out" by the regie; being ripped off by the actual tenant (your landlord); and living with broken appliances and other problems because your landlord won't fix them and you can't go to the regie.

Luckily there's help for you in the form of ASLOCA, the tenants' association. Everybody should join ASLOCA. I did and they helped me immensely to solve the problems I had with my landlady, let's call her Sylvia Jarzebowska. Here's what happened:

_ I moved into a small, centrally-located, furnished apartment in January 2007. Sylvia said it was a legal sublet and I signed a contract for 1,800 francs rent a month. We renewed the contract in early 2008.

_ A few months later we discovered damp in one of the walls. Instead of sending a workman from the regie, Sylvia brought round her own guy. I should have smelled a rat.

_ In late 2008 I had a problem with a neighbor and called the regie. They informed me I wasn't living there legally and Sylvia had significantly overcharged me on the rent. Sylvia, who had since married and moved to Argentina, admitted she'd lied to me, but saw no reason to lower the rent. The regie agreed to a one-year sublet and in the meantime I contacted ASLOCA about the rent.

_ After about a year of legal wrangling Sylvia was forced by the court to lower the rent to the legally permitted amount of 1,540 francs. She refused to pay back the money she'd overcharged us so we went to court again and were awared the 6,000+ francs she owed us. At which point, in late May 2010, she sent us an eviction notice.

_ Without a valid contract or the support of the regie, it's impossible to avoid eviction. We could have gone to court to get a stay of execution, but by sheer luck and pleading we found another apartment nearby and agreed to move out at the end of June. Sylvia still owes us over 6,000 francs, though the court has ordered her to pay it back to us by the end of the year.

UPDATE: Sly Sylvia has done a runner. Geneva authorities are currently hunting for her new address, but they tell me it's likely she's fled abroad to escape paying the money she owes us - and possibly many other people.

UPDATE 2: Sylvia returns! She has signed receipt of the official payment demand. So either she pays up, or she's in default and the authorities know where she lives.

The above is an absolutely typical example of the kind of problems you'll face with a Geneva sublet. Now some might say we should have kept quiet, paid the overpriced rent and nothing would have happened. Maybe. Or maybe she would have taken a dislike to us for some other reason and turfed us out, sans contract, on a whim. In my view it's always worth consulting ASLOCA and fighting for your legal rights, because failure to do so by too many people is one of the reasons the housing market in Geneva is such a mess.

Don't be surprised if the person who sublets an apartment to you illegally turns out to be a two-faced, lying, greedy and manipulative individual. Arm yourself well and get support: join ASLOCA; meticulously document your correspondence; follow the rules and the court will side with you."

http://www.frankjordans.com/genevasublet.htm

joncion actully is like soho in london, it is not so safe due to the people sale drug and stolen, however there are beautiful view in the waterfront and nice apartment.

I living there since 4 years, had my car stolen and my apartment stolen once, however if you walk in the mid-night in the street, is not a big problem, the black people normaly doesnt' bother you.

Um, "the black people normaly doesnt' bother you..." Hmmmm.....

Smurfs, hobbits and white people normally doesn't bother me. But those damn muggles have go to go.

typo... Those damn Muggles have got to go.

Any stu…, any desperate expat looking for an apartment out there?

Anyone????

No one?

That's pretty strong for 65 square meters. But it's still cheaper and nicer than a hotel. For short term, that's a good deal for the right person.

Perfect if you're flat hunting for the right apartment. It could give you a little bit of room to operate, albeit at a premium price.

@Roman, “That's pretty strong for 65 square meters”. I agree, especially as bigger flats in the building have been rented at almost half of that price…

@Roman, “But it's still cheaper and nicer than a hotel. For short term, that's a good deal for the right person”. Mmmmmm…assuming you get the caution back, right?

@Demi J, interesting tip. Comparing the size and monthly rent of other flats in the same building may help flat hunters to detect risky sub-lets, right? I have never thought of using comparis.ch for that way. 

A recent one. In Geneva.

4 months later and the shoe is on the other foot.  We need to move back to the UK on short notice, and it seems there are no takers for my flat!!

I have refrained from doing so up to this point, but... why is it just so difficult to do anything here?!?!  ><

I agree, Roman, madame 'Beautystone' made a rather inappropriate comment!!!

1st September …85m2 apartment @3750 CHF a month...

3rd September …85m2 apartment @3750 CHF a month...

4th September …85m2 apartment @3750 CHF a month...

6th September …85m2 apartment @3750 CHF a month...

Not happening....

10th September …95m2 apartment  @3750 CHF a month

23rd September…95m2 apartment @3750 CHF a month

etc...

etc...

@Demi J, interesting tip. Comparing the size and monthly rent of other flats in the same building may help flat hunters to detect risky sub-lets, right? I have never thought of using comparis.ch for that way.

Not always Marcus, some flats grow in size over time...

Any desperate expat looking for a flat out there?!?

Anyone?!?

No one?!?

Isn’t Maria Perez’s genuineness familiar?

Newer updates, guys:

Most people find it hard finding an apartment in a new city, but Geneva poses particular problems because of the acute housing shortage. One reason is the excess of demand compared to supply. Another (and rarely mentioned) reason is the tendency for people to hold onto apartments they've let forever. And I mean forever. They literally think about passing them on to their grandchildren, while in the meantime subletting them - usually illegally - to stupid foreigners.

Don't think you can't simply avoid this scam. Chances are, you're going to have to settle for a sublet at first because signing a real tenancy with a regie is almost impossible. I did and so did most of the people I know. Sometimes it's fine. Most of the time there are problems. These include being "found out" by the regie; being ripped off by the actual tenant (your landlord); and living with broken appliances and other problems because your landlord won't fix them and you can't go to the regie.

Luckily there's help for you in the form of ASLOCA, the tenants' association. Everybody should join ASLOCA. I did and they helped me immensely to solve the problems I had with my landlady, let's call her Sylvia Jarzebowska. Here's what happened:

_ I moved into a small, centrally-located, furnished apartment in January 2007. Sylvia said it was a legal sublet and I signed a contract for 1,800 francs rent a month. We renewed the contract in early 2008.

_ A few months later we discovered damp in one of the walls. Instead of sending a workman from the regie, Sylvia brought round her own guy. I should have smelled a rat.

_ In late 2008 I had a problem with a neighbor and called the regie. They informed me I wasn't living there legally and Sylvia had significantly overcharged me on the rent. Sylvia, who had since married and moved to Argentina, admitted she'd lied to me, but saw no reason to lower the rent. The regie agreed to a one-year sublet and in the meantime I contacted ASLOCA about the rent.

_ After about a year of legal wrangling Sylvia was forced by the court to lower the rent to the legally permitted amount of 1,540 francs. She refused to pay back the money she'd overcharged us so we went to court again and were awared the 6,000+ francs she owed us. At which point, in late May 2010, she sent us an eviction notice.

_ Without a valid contract or the support of the regie, it's impossible to avoid eviction. We could have gone to court to get a stay of execution, but by sheer luck and pleading we found another apartment nearby and agreed to move out at the end of June. Sylvia still owes us over 6,000 francs, though the court has ordered her to pay it back to us by the end of the year.

UPDATE: Sly Sylvia has done a runner. Geneva authorities are currently hunting for her new address, but they tell me it's likely she's fled abroad to escape paying the money she owes us - and possibly many other people.

UPDATE 2: Sylvia returns! She has signed receipt of the official payment demand. So either she pays up, or she's in default and the authorities know where she lives.

UPDATE 3: The poursuite has partly worked. Sylvia paid most of the money she owes us. Who says there's no justice in this town?

UPDATE 4: Sylvia has paid the remaining amount. Case closed.

The above is an absolutely typical example of the kind of problems you'll face with a Geneva sublet. Now some might say we should have kept quiet, paid the overpriced rent and nothing would have happened. Maybe. Or maybe she would have taken a dislike to us for some other reason and turfed us out, sans contract, on a whim. In my view it's always worth consulting ASLOCA and fighting for your legal rights, because failure to do so by too many people is one of the reasons the housing market in Geneva is such a mess.

Don't be surprised if the person who sublets an apartment to you illegally turns out to be a two-faced, lying, greedy and manipulative individual. Arm yourself well and get support: join ASLOCA; meticulously document your correspondence; follow the rules and the court will side with you.

 http://www.frankjordans.com/genevasublet.htm

3 Schlüsselgasse, Kreis 1

CH - 8001, Zurich Old Town

At 2’750 CHF monthly

By …

At 2’750 CHF monthly

By … “Maria Carvajal”

At 2’750 CHF monthly

                                             By … “Relocation M”

At 2’750 CHF monthly + 20%

By … “Maria Perez”

At 3’300 CHF monthly

By … “Maria Perez”

At 3’500 CHF monthly

                                               By … “Maria Perez”

At 4’000 CHF monthly

By …

At 5’000 CHF monthly

By … “sylviaboska”

                                                     A must know:

Hi all. This is very useful thread for a newbie. I hope there are still some active particpants. I am looking for a 1 BR apartment starting 31 january