The Perils of Check out Lanes and Being Single in a Strange Place
Last week a man standing behind me in the check out lane at Carrefour in Segny got too close. too close. Now I've heard complaints and experienced for myself how people in France have a slightly different idea of what constitutes personal space, but this guy was literally breathing down my neck. I couldn't move forward so I cringed and hoped the woman in front would soon get her bank card problem sorted out so I could get away from this short, sweaty man with yesterday's dinner still on his breath.
Then something (his hand? or worse!) rubbed up against me from behind..on my behind. And I'm not talking about an accidental brush up against. I spun around toward the man, my mouth gapping in shock. He began apologising profusely and quickly moved from the check out lane and darted toward the exit.
Then yesterday in Geneva. A beautiful, sun shiny day. I don't really have any one to go out with but I've been here ten months and I was tired of feeling like a hermit holed up in my mountain cave so I decided to take a walk by the lake.
I was walking near the pompier shed, just before the carousel when I noticed the man who was walking toward me. He was a black fellow, dressed in a shirt and long pants that patterned the stars and stripes of the U.S. flag. He changed sides so he was now walking directly at me, sauntering, trying to look gangsta rapper or something. I figured he was just going to offer me drugs so when got in front of my face and spoke to me in French I said "non merci" without stopping or making eye contact. He continued saying things as I walked away. My French isn't so great so I couldn't say what. But I did understand his words when he yelled "arrêtez cette fille!"
From seemingly out of nowhere came another man. This one was tall, white, wearing sun glasses and a smirk. He came right up to me and stood directly in my path. When I tried to go left, he blocked me. When I tried to go right, he blocked me. I put my hand up and tried over and again to pass but he wouldn't allow it. The other man still saying things. Again, I couldn't make out what was being said. I was absolutely terrified. At this point a group of people neared the area and he backed off.
I just don't know what to make of it? They didn't grab at my bag. They didn't touch me. It seemed like pure intimidation and harassment.
Of course I think things like should I have called the police..blah blah blah, but realistically what could they have done?
What makes me most sad is that the one time, the one day I decide to venture out on my own, the day and any future strolls by the lake have been marred by a couple of scumbags.
Oh! And then today my house caught fire.
Bravo to the fire department for getting here fast and getting things under control but still...
It's been a very shitty five days.
:ermm:
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A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Jun 30, 2008 @ 23:43
The text you are quoting:
The Perils of Check out Lanes and Being Single in a Strange Place
Last week a man standing behind me in the check out lane at Carrefour in Segny got too close. too close. Now I've heard complaints and experienced for myself how people in France have a slightly different idea of what constitutes personal space, but this guy was literally breathing down my neck. I couldn't move forward so I cringed and hoped the woman in front would soon get her bank card problem sorted out so I could get away from this short, sweaty man with yesterday's dinner still on his breath.
Then something (his hand? or worse!) rubbed up against me from behind..on my behind. And I'm not talking about an accidental brush up against. I spun around toward the man, my mouth gapping in shock. He began apologising profusely and quickly moved from the check out lane and darted toward the exit.
Then yesterday in Geneva. A beautiful, sun shiny day. I don't really have any one to go out with but I've been here ten months and I was tired of feeling like a hermit holed up in my mountain cave so I decided to take a walk by the lake.
I was walking near the pompier shed, just before the carousel when I noticed the man who was walking toward me. He was a black fellow, dressed in a shirt and long pants that patterned the stars and stripes of the U.S. flag. He changed sides so he was now walking directly at me, sauntering, trying to look gangsta rapper or something. I figured he was just going to offer me drugs so when got in front of my face and spoke to me in French I said "non merci" without stopping or making eye contact. He continued saying things as I walked away. My French isn't so great so I couldn't say what. But I did understand his words when he yelled "arrêtez cette fille!"
From seemingly out of nowhere came another man. This one was tall, white, wearing sun glasses and a smirk. He came right up to me and stood directly in my path. When I tried to go left, he blocked me. When I tried to go right, he blocked me. I put my hand up and tried over and again to pass but he wouldn't allow it. The other man still saying things. Again, I couldn't make out what was being said. I was absolutely terrified. At this point a group of people neared the area and he backed off.
I just don't know what to make of it? They didn't grab at my bag. They didn't touch me. It seemed like pure intimidation and harassment.
Of course I think things like should I have called the police..blah blah blah, but realistically what could they have done?
What makes me most sad is that the one time, the one day I decide to venture out on my own, the day and any future strolls by the lake have been marred by a couple of scumbags.
Oh! And then today my house caught fire.
Bravo to the fire department for getting here fast and getting things under control but still...
It's been a very shitty five days.
:ermm:
cigbarJun 30, 2008 @ 23:43
Last week a man standing behind me in the check out lane at Carrefour in Segny got too close. too close. Now I've heard complaints and experienced for myself how people in France have a slightly different idea of what constitutes personal space, but this guy was literally breathing down my neck. I couldn't move forward so I cringed and hoped the woman in front would soon get her bank card problem sorted out so I could get away from this short, sweaty man with yesterday's dinner still on his breath.
Then something (his hand? or worse!) rubbed up against me from behind..on my behind. And I'm not talking about an accidental brush up against. I spun around toward the man, my mouth gapping in shock. He began apologising profusely and quickly moved from the check out lane and darted toward the exit.
Then yesterday in Geneva. A beautiful, sun shiny day. I don't really have any one to go out with but I've been here ten months and I was tired of feeling like a hermit holed up in my mountain cave so I decided to take a walk by the lake.
I was walking near the pompier shed, just before the carousel when I noticed the man who was walking toward me. He was a black fellow, dressed in a shirt and long pants that patterned the stars and stripes of the U.S. flag. He changed sides so he was now walking directly at me, sauntering, trying to look gangsta rapper or something. I figured he was just going to offer me drugs so when got in front of my face and spoke to me in French I said "non merci" without stopping or making eye contact. He continued saying things as I walked away. My French isn't so great so I couldn't say what. But I did understand his words when he yelled "arrêtez cette fille!"
From seemingly out of nowhere came another man. This one was tall, white, wearing sun glasses and a smirk. He came right up to me and stood directly in my path. When I tried to go left, he blocked me. When I tried to go right, he blocked me. I put my hand up and tried over and again to pass but he wouldn't allow it. The other man still saying things. Again, I couldn't make out what was being said. I was absolutely terrified. At this point a group of people neared the area and he backed off.
I just don't know what to make of it? They didn't grab at my bag. They didn't touch me. It seemed like pure intimidation and harassment.
Of course I think things like should I have called the police..blah blah blah, but realistically what could they have done?
What makes me most sad is that the one time, the one day I decide to venture out on my own, the day and any future strolls by the lake have been marred by a couple of scumbags.
Oh! And then today my house caught fire.
Bravo to the fire department for getting here fast and getting things under control but still...
It's been a very shitty five days.
:ermm:
cigbarJun 30, 2008 @ 23:43
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 1
Jul 1, 2008 @ 03:15
[quote][b]cigbar (30/06/2008)
[/b]Of course I think things like should I have called the police..blah blah blah, but realistically what could they have done?[/quote]
Bunch of silly jerks, what a pain! I feel sorry for you. As for the police, you should have called them and give them a precise description of the two guys as they usually operate on the same spot over and over. Not saying anything is kind of giving them a free pass to do it again. Cops do help when they can....
[/b]Of course I think things like should I have called the police..blah blah blah, but realistically what could they have done?[/quote]
Bunch of silly jerks, what a pain! I feel sorry for you. As for the police, you should have called them and give them a precise description of the two guys as they usually operate on the same spot over and over. Not saying anything is kind of giving them a free pass to do it again. Cops do help when they can....
The text you are quoting:
[quote][b]cigbar (30/06/2008)
[/b]Of course I think things like should I have called the police..blah blah blah, but realistically what could they have done?[/quote]
Bunch of silly jerks, what a pain! I feel sorry for you. As for the police, you should have called them and give them a precise description of the two guys as they usually operate on the same spot over and over. Not saying anything is kind of giving them a free pass to do it again. Cops do help when they can....
Free, Jul 1, 2008 @ 03:15
[/b]Of course I think things like should I have called the police..blah blah blah, but realistically what could they have done?[/quote]
Bunch of silly jerks, what a pain! I feel sorry for you. As for the police, you should have called them and give them a precise description of the two guys as they usually operate on the same spot over and over. Not saying anything is kind of giving them a free pass to do it again. Cops do help when they can....
Free, Jul 1, 2008 @ 03:15
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 2
Jul 1, 2008 @ 11:31
Wow Cigbar - So many bad expriences in such a short time - I feel for you.
Geneva is indeed usualy pretty safe, but bad things can happen anywhere, and once they do happen, its very hard to go back to feeling safe.
I wish there was something more we could do to help, but all I can really do is hope you will not run into these people again, and if you do feel threatened at any point, just start yelling 'Police, Police' - that will ususaly scare them away.
Sorry about your bad experiences again, and good luck in the future,
Oded
The text you are quoting:
Wow Cigbar - So many bad expriences in such a short time - I feel for you.
Geneva is indeed usualy pretty safe, but bad things can happen anywhere, and once they do happen, its very hard to go back to feeling safe.
I wish there was something more we could do to help, but all I can really do is hope you will not run into these people again, and if you do feel threatened at any point, just start yelling 'Police, Police' - that will ususaly scare them away.
Sorry about your bad experiences again, and good luck in the future,
Oded
SiteAdmin Oded, Jul 1, 2008 @ 11:31
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 3
Jul 1, 2008 @ 14:09
Thank you all for your kind words.
Tinkie, it happened at about 17:00 near the fountain. The best way to describe the exact area is to say it's the spot there where you cannot so easily walk right beside the lake because there are some sheds and boats that are dry docked. Once you pass through there is a children's carousel and some restaurants.
They say "bad things come in threes". With any luck that's my three bad things for the year. So I got groped, harassed and had a fire but I didn't get hurt or robbed and my house is still standing, so all in all I cannot complain too much. :)
Free, there were several police officers along the lake that day and I kept thinking I should stop them and inform them about these two men. As people do, I began rationising and considered the ramifications. I thought, well, they haven't committed a crime, what can the police possibly do? At the very most the police will speak to them. Then what does this mean? If I run into these two again and they are angry this time will I get off so lucky? Reading that it sounds so cowardly, I know. Coulda, shoulda, woulda.:(
Thanks Oded. I've too always had the feeling that Geneva was a very safe place. Like every city there are risks and of course some areas are worse than others but I will try not to let this incident prevent me from going back to the lake, even if I am alone.
I'm a very cautious person and have navigated through much rougher cities and certainly through much rougher areas than the Geneva lake front so I was very surprised at the boldness of these two.
ps. Tinkie, can you really slap a weaselly little pervert across the face and not have to worry about facing assault charges? Cool. :D
Tinkie, it happened at about 17:00 near the fountain. The best way to describe the exact area is to say it's the spot there where you cannot so easily walk right beside the lake because there are some sheds and boats that are dry docked. Once you pass through there is a children's carousel and some restaurants.
They say "bad things come in threes". With any luck that's my three bad things for the year. So I got groped, harassed and had a fire but I didn't get hurt or robbed and my house is still standing, so all in all I cannot complain too much. :)
Free, there were several police officers along the lake that day and I kept thinking I should stop them and inform them about these two men. As people do, I began rationising and considered the ramifications. I thought, well, they haven't committed a crime, what can the police possibly do? At the very most the police will speak to them. Then what does this mean? If I run into these two again and they are angry this time will I get off so lucky? Reading that it sounds so cowardly, I know. Coulda, shoulda, woulda.:(
Thanks Oded. I've too always had the feeling that Geneva was a very safe place. Like every city there are risks and of course some areas are worse than others but I will try not to let this incident prevent me from going back to the lake, even if I am alone.
I'm a very cautious person and have navigated through much rougher cities and certainly through much rougher areas than the Geneva lake front so I was very surprised at the boldness of these two.
ps. Tinkie, can you really slap a weaselly little pervert across the face and not have to worry about facing assault charges? Cool. :D
The text you are quoting:
Thank you all for your kind words.
Tinkie, it happened at about 17:00 near the fountain. The best way to describe the exact area is to say it's the spot there where you cannot so easily walk right beside the lake because there are some sheds and boats that are dry docked. Once you pass through there is a children's carousel and some restaurants.
They say "bad things come in threes". With any luck that's my three bad things for the year. So I got groped, harassed and had a fire but I didn't get hurt or robbed and my house is still standing, so all in all I cannot complain too much. :)
Free, there were several police officers along the lake that day and I kept thinking I should stop them and inform them about these two men. As people do, I began rationising and considered the ramifications. I thought, well, they haven't committed a crime, what can the police possibly do? At the very most the police will speak to them. Then what does this mean? If I run into these two again and they are angry this time will I get off so lucky? Reading that it sounds so cowardly, I know. Coulda, shoulda, woulda.:(
Thanks Oded. I've too always had the feeling that Geneva was a very safe place. Like every city there are risks and of course some areas are worse than others but I will try not to let this incident prevent me from going back to the lake, even if I am alone.
I'm a very cautious person and have navigated through much rougher cities and certainly through much rougher areas than the Geneva lake front so I was very surprised at the boldness of these two.
ps. Tinkie, can you really slap a weaselly little pervert across the face and not have to worry about facing assault charges? Cool. :D
cigbar, Jul 1, 2008 @ 14:09
Tinkie, it happened at about 17:00 near the fountain. The best way to describe the exact area is to say it's the spot there where you cannot so easily walk right beside the lake because there are some sheds and boats that are dry docked. Once you pass through there is a children's carousel and some restaurants.
They say "bad things come in threes". With any luck that's my three bad things for the year. So I got groped, harassed and had a fire but I didn't get hurt or robbed and my house is still standing, so all in all I cannot complain too much. :)
Free, there were several police officers along the lake that day and I kept thinking I should stop them and inform them about these two men. As people do, I began rationising and considered the ramifications. I thought, well, they haven't committed a crime, what can the police possibly do? At the very most the police will speak to them. Then what does this mean? If I run into these two again and they are angry this time will I get off so lucky? Reading that it sounds so cowardly, I know. Coulda, shoulda, woulda.:(
Thanks Oded. I've too always had the feeling that Geneva was a very safe place. Like every city there are risks and of course some areas are worse than others but I will try not to let this incident prevent me from going back to the lake, even if I am alone.
I'm a very cautious person and have navigated through much rougher cities and certainly through much rougher areas than the Geneva lake front so I was very surprised at the boldness of these two.
ps. Tinkie, can you really slap a weaselly little pervert across the face and not have to worry about facing assault charges? Cool. :D
cigbar, Jul 1, 2008 @ 14:09
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 4
Jul 1, 2008 @ 14:33
Not a pleasant story, but the gentleman who says to tell the police is right.
Of course, Geneva likes to bill itself as very safe and it is generally. But not as safe as it would like to be.
About the guy getting close in the supermarket line.... (I am a guy, by the way, and it happens to me without the butt-stroke. But people do just get too close and I "suddenly" remember something and turn around fast with my big dumb elbow spearheading the turn. Profuse apologies are in order, of course.
The text you are quoting:
Not a pleasant story, but the gentleman who says to tell the police is right.
Of course, Geneva likes to bill itself as very safe and it is generally. But not as safe as it would like to be.
About the guy getting close in the supermarket line.... (I am a guy, by the way, and it happens to me without the butt-stroke. But people do just get too close and I "suddenly" remember something and turn around fast with my big dumb elbow spearheading the turn. Profuse apologies are in order, of course.
Marton R, Jul 1, 2008 @ 14:33
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 5
Jul 1, 2008 @ 14:52
Cigbar:
What bad experiences - luck was not on your side! On the positive side, I think you've now more than exhausted your quota of bad stuff, and you're most probably looking at the next few years without any mishaps in Geneva...(-;
It's such a bad luck story, and unique for Geneva, that we might include it in our weekly newsletter to all glocals members in Geneva. If we decide to do that, would that be OK with you?
Thanks,
Nir
The text you are quoting:
Cigbar:
What bad experiences - luck was not on your side! On the positive side, I think you've now more than exhausted your quota of bad stuff, and you're most probably looking at the next few years without any mishaps in Geneva...(-;
It's such a bad luck story, and unique for Geneva, that we might include it in our weekly newsletter to all glocals members in Geneva. If we decide to do that, would that be OK with you?
Thanks,
Nir
Nir Ofek, Jul 1, 2008 @ 14:52
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 6
Jul 1, 2008 @ 15:09
As a woman on your own in any country you would face these issues for several different reasons. Women are just seen as easier targets. You may just be uncomfortable because you are not on home ground. So there are lots of tips online to make yourself feel more comfortable and make your experience more safe. Here are a couple of examples.
1. Look confident, comfortable, and like you know where you are going.
2. Make your own personal space, stick your elbows out, move if you can.
3. Don't say no "thank you" if you think they are being suggestive (drugs, sex...) just say NO . Or better yet ignore the person and don't make eye contact. The "Thank You" is just legacy from being taught to be a "polite" person.
4. A pickpocket trick (the most likely crime to be commited against you), is to sandwich you between two operatives. If you get in a situation like that, put you hand over your bag to signal you are aware of the possibility. If they are honest they probably won't notice but if they're not you've protected yourself.
And do go out here. You are certainly safer here than most places.
1. Look confident, comfortable, and like you know where you are going.
2. Make your own personal space, stick your elbows out, move if you can.
3. Don't say no "thank you" if you think they are being suggestive (drugs, sex...) just say NO . Or better yet ignore the person and don't make eye contact. The "Thank You" is just legacy from being taught to be a "polite" person.
4. A pickpocket trick (the most likely crime to be commited against you), is to sandwich you between two operatives. If you get in a situation like that, put you hand over your bag to signal you are aware of the possibility. If they are honest they probably won't notice but if they're not you've protected yourself.
And do go out here. You are certainly safer here than most places.
The text you are quoting:
As a woman on your own in any country you would face these issues for several different reasons. Women are just seen as easier targets. You may just be uncomfortable because you are not on home ground. So there are lots of tips online to make yourself feel more comfortable and make your experience more safe. Here are a couple of examples.
1. Look confident, comfortable, and like you know where you are going.
2. Make your own personal space, stick your elbows out, move if you can.
3. Don't say no "thank you" if you think they are being suggestive (drugs, sex...) just say NO . Or better yet ignore the person and don't make eye contact. The "Thank You" is just legacy from being taught to be a "polite" person.
4. A pickpocket trick (the most likely crime to be commited against you), is to sandwich you between two operatives. If you get in a situation like that, put you hand over your bag to signal you are aware of the possibility. If they are honest they probably won't notice but if they're not you've protected yourself.
And do go out here. You are certainly safer here than most places.
Maplady, Jul 1, 2008 @ 15:09
1. Look confident, comfortable, and like you know where you are going.
2. Make your own personal space, stick your elbows out, move if you can.
3. Don't say no "thank you" if you think they are being suggestive (drugs, sex...) just say NO . Or better yet ignore the person and don't make eye contact. The "Thank You" is just legacy from being taught to be a "polite" person.
4. A pickpocket trick (the most likely crime to be commited against you), is to sandwich you between two operatives. If you get in a situation like that, put you hand over your bag to signal you are aware of the possibility. If they are honest they probably won't notice but if they're not you've protected yourself.
And do go out here. You are certainly safer here than most places.
Maplady, Jul 1, 2008 @ 15:09
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 7
Jul 1, 2008 @ 15:21
There was a posting a year ago on tips of where to be extra careful, where pick pocketers work and the scam artists float, which parking garages are known for thefts. One friend had her purse stolen out of her car as she entered her car at the Kampinski garage by 2 men working in team, but then others began posting other places to be careful of. I too recently posted something again as I have been approached by these people working in groups to try pick you up or posing to be security officers and stopping you, telling you to show your ID and to see what's in your wallet, and threatening if you don't cooperate. All this right on the UN ground next to the Japanese pagoda.
I can dig up my posting, but Nir... rather than sending a newsletter on one person's experience, you should create a 'pinup' on tips & traps - the real survival guide to Switzerland.
The text you are quoting:
There was a posting a year ago on tips of where to be extra careful, where pick pocketers work and the scam artists float, which parking garages are known for thefts. One friend had her purse stolen out of her car as she entered her car at the Kampinski garage by 2 men working in team, but then others began posting other places to be careful of. I too recently posted something again as I have been approached by these people working in groups to try pick you up or posing to be security officers and stopping you, telling you to show your ID and to see what's in your wallet, and threatening if you don't cooperate. All this right on the UN ground next to the Japanese pagoda.
I can dig up my posting, but Nir... rather than sending a newsletter on one person's experience, you should create a 'pinup' on tips & traps - the real survival guide to Switzerland.
YouMeCo, Jul 1, 2008 @ 15:21
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 8
Jul 1, 2008 @ 15:56
Yes, yes, Nir, of course. Feel free to tell others about this experience I had.
Clearly I am not unique in thinking that certain areas of Geneva (and the grocery stores!) are very, very safe so making others more aware that maintaining a certain level of caution, no matter where they are, is a great idea.
Clearly I am not unique in thinking that certain areas of Geneva (and the grocery stores!) are very, very safe so making others more aware that maintaining a certain level of caution, no matter where they are, is a great idea.
The text you are quoting:
Yes, yes, Nir, of course. Feel free to tell others about this experience I had.
Clearly I am not unique in thinking that certain areas of Geneva (and the grocery stores!) are very, very safe so making others more aware that maintaining a certain level of caution, no matter where they are, is a great idea.
cigbar, Jul 1, 2008 @ 15:56
Clearly I am not unique in thinking that certain areas of Geneva (and the grocery stores!) are very, very safe so making others more aware that maintaining a certain level of caution, no matter where they are, is a great idea.
cigbar, Jul 1, 2008 @ 15:56
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 9
Jul 1, 2008 @ 16:30
Cigi:
Thanks. I think members will benefit from reading your post not only cos a wake up call that we ain't living in a city that's 100% freak & crime free, but also cos your writing style is engaging and amusing (even when describing a shitty week).
Which reminds me: we were contacted by Swissinfo a while back, who asked us if we think any glocals members will want to publish a blog on Swissinfo. Interested?
The text you are quoting:
Cigi:
Thanks. I think members will benefit from reading your post not only cos a wake up call that we ain't living in a city that's 100% freak & crime free, but also cos your writing style is engaging and amusing (even when describing a shitty week).
Which reminds me: we were contacted by Swissinfo a while back, who asked us if we think any glocals members will want to publish a blog on Swissinfo. Interested?
Nir Ofek, Jul 1, 2008 @ 16:30
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 10
Jul 1, 2008 @ 17:31
Absolutely, Nir!
The life of a recluse might not be terribly entertaining :doze: but I'd be delighted to bore anyone who's interested in listening.
And uhhh, if you do indeed post the original post.. well, you know those typos..? (geez making demands already!)
The life of a recluse might not be terribly entertaining :doze: but I'd be delighted to bore anyone who's interested in listening.
And uhhh, if you do indeed post the original post.. well, you know those typos..? (geez making demands already!)
The text you are quoting:
Absolutely, Nir!
The life of a recluse might not be terribly entertaining :doze: but I'd be delighted to bore anyone who's interested in listening.
And uhhh, if you do indeed post the original post.. well, you know those typos..? (geez making demands already!)
cigbar, Jul 1, 2008 @ 17:31
The life of a recluse might not be terribly entertaining :doze: but I'd be delighted to bore anyone who's interested in listening.
And uhhh, if you do indeed post the original post.. well, you know those typos..? (geez making demands already!)
cigbar, Jul 1, 2008 @ 17:31
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 11
Jul 1, 2008 @ 17:35
Cigbar:
Just sent you email about the Swissinfo blogs.
About the typos: it's part of your charm!
The text you are quoting:
Cigbar:
Just sent you email about the Swissinfo blogs.
About the typos: it's part of your charm!
Nir Ofek, Jul 1, 2008 @ 17:35
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 12
Jul 1, 2008 @ 18:53
Cigbar, hearing about your mishaps is worrying.
Perhaps we should consider that having people breathe down one's neck is a fairly common thing, to be dealt with rapidly and firmly.
The other event is trickier and I certainly think it is good to take it further, if only to make sure someone is aware, and to help put a stop to it.
I know, easier said than done...
Perhaps we should consider that having people breathe down one's neck is a fairly common thing, to be dealt with rapidly and firmly.
The other event is trickier and I certainly think it is good to take it further, if only to make sure someone is aware, and to help put a stop to it.
I know, easier said than done...
The text you are quoting:
Cigbar, hearing about your mishaps is worrying.
Perhaps we should consider that having people breathe down one's neck is a fairly common thing, to be dealt with rapidly and firmly.
The other event is trickier and I certainly think it is good to take it further, if only to make sure someone is aware, and to help put a stop to it.
I know, easier said than done...
Elisabeth L, Jul 1, 2008 @ 18:53
Perhaps we should consider that having people breathe down one's neck is a fairly common thing, to be dealt with rapidly and firmly.
The other event is trickier and I certainly think it is good to take it further, if only to make sure someone is aware, and to help put a stop to it.
I know, easier said than done...
Elisabeth L, Jul 1, 2008 @ 18:53
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 13
Jul 1, 2008 @ 19:22
[quote][b]tinkie (30/06/2008)[/b][hr]And then don't hesitate to slap a man who touches your butt, who do you think they are? :alien:[/quote]
Tinkie - I'm glad I never stood behind you in a supermarket... :-)
I would think twice before slapping anyone, and would save it for very extreme situations.
Better to yell at the person, ask for help from people around you, or even just walk away -some people are pretty crazy, and its not a good idea to slap them unless you are sure you are able to handle yourself if they decide to slap you back, or worse.
If you get to a point where you feel you are in danger, and no one is around to help, then you have to do what you have to do in order to protect yourself, but at that point, a knee to the groin or elbow to the face would be more effective than a slap, and might give you the opportunity to make your escape - but again, this is only in extreme cases, where you are really scared and there is no other choice.
Oded
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[quote][b]tinkie (30/06/2008)[/b][hr]And then don't hesitate to slap a man who touches your butt, who do you think they are? :alien:[/quote]
Tinkie - I'm glad I never stood behind you in a supermarket... :-)
I would think twice before slapping anyone, and would save it for very extreme situations.
Better to yell at the person, ask for help from people around you, or even just walk away -some people are pretty crazy, and its not a good idea to slap them unless you are sure you are able to handle yourself if they decide to slap you back, or worse.
If you get to a point where you feel you are in danger, and no one is around to help, then you have to do what you have to do in order to protect yourself, but at that point, a knee to the groin or elbow to the face would be more effective than a slap, and might give you the opportunity to make your escape - but again, this is only in extreme cases, where you are really scared and there is no other choice.
Oded
SiteAdmin Oded, Jul 1, 2008 @ 19:22
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 14
Jul 1, 2008 @ 19:41
Personally I think Geneva has a very sinister dark side that is completely muted out of the news and only touched on in local papers...as a kind of 'by the way' after they've explained why the grape harvest has been damaged by severe rain, and what language to host the Euro 2008 in...then on page 9, in a small 'by the way' type column it is announced that a man was stabbed and died near Mr Pickwicks pub and a woman had her throat slit near the Britannia pub...etc...bloody, litterally bloody, etc! (I'm only quoting the events of the last few weeks by the way!)
I love Geneva enough to want to stay for a while, learn the lingo, raise my kids and watch them grow to love cheese unlike any other child in the world. But the 'tourism board' clearly trump the 'public right-to-know board' in this bizzare City - So we should stop being surprised that shit happens here so often and be a bit more concerned that we only ever hear about it through blogs!
So when I do fully learn to read French, I'd like to know that the street where I ate and then walked along with my wife after a fun curry club event was in fact a scene out of CSI the night before... I just might be a bit more vigilant...or avoid it perhaps!! Or maybe even the 'Swiss local news' on our favouite radio station might just one day tell us some 'Swiss...local...news!' I really don't give a monkey's arse about whether Biel/Bien should be just Biel or Bien, or that Zurich has won some clean city award or that a farmer 300 miles away has grown a rather large vegetable!
I'd be interested to know who decides on what the expat community gets to hear about and who ultimately decides what we need to know about. Personally, I'd rather know that all these dead people lately, all these ongoing muggings and robberies... men getting a bit too close with their swiss salami in the queue - aren't just mythical 18th century style urban myths...but are news worthy incidents that 'by the way' you might want to know about, just incase your kids wait for the bus in that area, or you might want to take a short cut to watch the fireworks one evening down that street... or just for the sheer joy of being a bit street savvy!
Glad that's off my chest...I'm just ouraged with the no-news policy here! Can you tell?
I've never known one city to exist on so many parallels as Geneva...News, the economy, the lifestyles and the social scene... it's mad.... but we just seem to look at the lake and the mountains and get a brain erase like that flashlight in the film 'Men in Black' - Then we just get on with life as though a fairytale book sprang to life.
Give me news I can use, Geneva!
Oh, great article starting this off by the way...sorry to hear about your shitty 5 days...but your funny narrative made light of it... get a rape alarm and deafen the bastards! And pepper spray for the those that stand too close. Or simply squeeze and twist anything that shouldn't touch you!
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Personally I think Geneva has a very sinister dark side that is completely muted out of the news and only touched on in local papers...as a kind of 'by the way' after they've explained why the grape harvest has been damaged by severe rain, and what language to host the Euro 2008 in...then on page 9, in a small 'by the way' type column it is announced that a man was stabbed and died near Mr Pickwicks pub and a woman had her throat slit near the Britannia pub...etc...bloody, litterally bloody, etc! (I'm only quoting the events of the last few weeks by the way!)
I love Geneva enough to want to stay for a while, learn the lingo, raise my kids and watch them grow to love cheese unlike any other child in the world. But the 'tourism board' clearly trump the 'public right-to-know board' in this bizzare City - So we should stop being surprised that shit happens here so often and be a bit more concerned that we only ever hear about it through blogs!
So when I do fully learn to read French, I'd like to know that the street where I ate and then walked along with my wife after a fun curry club event was in fact a scene out of CSI the night before... I just might be a bit more vigilant...or avoid it perhaps!! Or maybe even the 'Swiss local news' on our favouite radio station might just one day tell us some 'Swiss...local...news!' I really don't give a monkey's arse about whether Biel/Bien should be just Biel or Bien, or that Zurich has won some clean city award or that a farmer 300 miles away has grown a rather large vegetable!
I'd be interested to know who decides on what the expat community gets to hear about and who ultimately decides what we need to know about. Personally, I'd rather know that all these dead people lately, all these ongoing muggings and robberies... men getting a bit too close with their swiss salami in the queue - aren't just mythical 18th century style urban myths...but are news worthy incidents that 'by the way' you might want to know about, just incase your kids wait for the bus in that area, or you might want to take a short cut to watch the fireworks one evening down that street... or just for the sheer joy of being a bit street savvy!
Glad that's off my chest...I'm just ouraged with the no-news policy here! Can you tell?
I've never known one city to exist on so many parallels as Geneva...News, the economy, the lifestyles and the social scene... it's mad.... but we just seem to look at the lake and the mountains and get a brain erase like that flashlight in the film 'Men in Black' - Then we just get on with life as though a fairytale book sprang to life.
Give me news I can use, Geneva!
Oh, great article starting this off by the way...sorry to hear about your shitty 5 days...but your funny narrative made light of it... get a rape alarm and deafen the bastards! And pepper spray for the those that stand too close. Or simply squeeze and twist anything that shouldn't touch you!
Deano1uk, Jul 1, 2008 @ 19:41
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 15
Jul 1, 2008 @ 19:43
Regarding teaching people to kick men in the balls...
with great power comes great responsibility....
kicking guys in the daddy complex should be treated like a policeman firing a gun: by all means do it if you're in danger, but you should always be able to justify it at a tribunal later!
with great power comes great responsibility....
kicking guys in the daddy complex should be treated like a policeman firing a gun: by all means do it if you're in danger, but you should always be able to justify it at a tribunal later!
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Regarding teaching people to kick men in the balls...
with great power comes great responsibility....
kicking guys in the daddy complex should be treated like a policeman firing a gun: by all means do it if you're in danger, but you should always be able to justify it at a tribunal later!
chavyboy, Jul 1, 2008 @ 19:43
with great power comes great responsibility....
kicking guys in the daddy complex should be treated like a policeman firing a gun: by all means do it if you're in danger, but you should always be able to justify it at a tribunal later!
chavyboy, Jul 1, 2008 @ 19:43
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 16
Jul 1, 2008 @ 20:15
I have had a couple of similar experiences, though in Lausanne, with black (don`t want to sound racist, but both of them were black) guys coming up to me and trying to touch me in a verz inappropriate way. And that was with other people nearby in the early afternoon. And I defenitely can`t be blamed for looking scared as I`ve done karate in the past and do kick-boxing and am very able to protect myself and have had to in the past. Maybe it`s because I`m blond and fair-skinned...
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I have had a couple of similar experiences, though in Lausanne, with black (don`t want to sound racist, but both of them were black) guys coming up to me and trying to touch me in a verz inappropriate way. And that was with other people nearby in the early afternoon. And I defenitely can`t be blamed for looking scared as I`ve done karate in the past and do kick-boxing and am very able to protect myself and have had to in the past. Maybe it`s because I`m blond and fair-skinned...
catalyna, Jul 1, 2008 @ 20:15
catalyna, Jul 1, 2008 @ 20:15
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 17
Jul 1, 2008 @ 20:39
Sorry that you had such a terrible triple whammy... but thanks for letting us know so we can all be more aware and maybe even take you out for a drink. I hate to hear of anyone being assaulted, much less a Canadian! :)
Along with all the other advice, you might think about writing Carrefour, even in English, noting the date and time of that assault. Most large shopping surfaces have cameras all around and that incident may even have been caught on tape. In addition, other women may also have been assaulted by the same creep. You can even send the letter to the president or CEO of Carrefour describing the incident. That might help them tighten up security.
For example, a friend of mine had her wallet stolen out of her purse in Globus last year. We went to security and they had the whole thing on tape. My friend went to the police station to report the theft and Globus' security also sent a copy of the tape. Sounds as if the two guys by the lake were working as a team ..
Geneva does have a surprising number of plainclothes police working the train station and some other areas of town. Over the past couple of years I have seen a bunch of burly guys come out of nowhere to take down suspected drug dealers. So if you are really afraid, you might yell, "Voleur!" (Theif) That gets a lot of attention. ...
Deano1's observations about the "bad" news blackout here is on point. You will almost never hear or read anything regarding crime in from English language, Swiss-controlled media. That's one reason I was a bit sorry that WRG was taken over by the Swiss government and that the new Swisster website, which is partly co-owned by Edipresse (owner of Le Temps, Le Tribune, Le Matin...etc.). Well, that is one void that Glocals can fill without exaggerating . . .
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Sorry that you had such a terrible triple whammy... but thanks for letting us know so we can all be more aware and maybe even take you out for a drink. I hate to hear of anyone being assaulted, much less a Canadian! :)
Along with all the other advice, you might think about writing Carrefour, even in English, noting the date and time of that assault. Most large shopping surfaces have cameras all around and that incident may even have been caught on tape. In addition, other women may also have been assaulted by the same creep. You can even send the letter to the president or CEO of Carrefour describing the incident. That might help them tighten up security.
For example, a friend of mine had her wallet stolen out of her purse in Globus last year. We went to security and they had the whole thing on tape. My friend went to the police station to report the theft and Globus' security also sent a copy of the tape. Sounds as if the two guys by the lake were working as a team ..
Geneva does have a surprising number of plainclothes police working the train station and some other areas of town. Over the past couple of years I have seen a bunch of burly guys come out of nowhere to take down suspected drug dealers. So if you are really afraid, you might yell, "Voleur!" (Theif) That gets a lot of attention. ...
Deano1's observations about the "bad" news blackout here is on point. You will almost never hear or read anything regarding crime in from English language, Swiss-controlled media. That's one reason I was a bit sorry that WRG was taken over by the Swiss government and that the new Swisster website, which is partly co-owned by Edipresse (owner of Le Temps, Le Tribune, Le Matin...etc.). Well, that is one void that Glocals can fill without exaggerating . . .
Translator, Jul 1, 2008 @ 20:39
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 18
Jul 1, 2008 @ 23:20
[quote]Personally I think Geneva has a very sinister dark side that is completely muted out of the news and only touched on in local papers...as a kind of 'by the way' after they've explained why the grape harvest has been damaged by severe rain, and what language to host the Euro 2008 in...then on page 9, in a small 'by the way' type column it is announced that a man was stabbed and died near Mr Pickwicks pub and a woman had her throat slit near the Britannia pub...etc...bloody, litterally bloody, etc! (I'm only quoting the events of the last few weeks by the way!)
I couldn't agree with you more... This may be off-topic, but I actually work with an English-language magazine in CH, we don't cover details of cities, broader strokes, business and stuff, so it's not really our turf and we are not beholden to anyone, actually. BUT: When I lived in Geneva, I also noticed things that were very weird, and I often had the feeling of being somewhere between Chekhov's Cherry Orchard and a pressure cooker. The police? Forget it. I would have started some investive stuff, but as a freelancer, no way. There was a report in 2007, I think, that suggested that the number of felonies in the city had jumped by 60 % (!!) in 2005 (or was it 2006). The police chief said it was not so, no other explanation needed, and the story vanished from the papers. Last year, then, I chanced to meet a big political wheel at a private bash. The man was at the top of government, he has his fingers in many pies. We chatted about how great the city is. I popped one tough question. Without breaking stride, he gave me a congenial smile and said "Le buffet est ouvert, allons manger."
That is Geneva.
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[quote]Personally I think Geneva has a very sinister dark side that is completely muted out of the news and only touched on in local papers...as a kind of 'by the way' after they've explained why the grape harvest has been damaged by severe rain, and what language to host the Euro 2008 in...then on page 9, in a small 'by the way' type column it is announced that a man was stabbed and died near Mr Pickwicks pub and a woman had her throat slit near the Britannia pub...etc...bloody, litterally bloody, etc! (I'm only quoting the events of the last few weeks by the way!)
I couldn't agree with you more... This may be off-topic, but I actually work with an English-language magazine in CH, we don't cover details of cities, broader strokes, business and stuff, so it's not really our turf and we are not beholden to anyone, actually. BUT: When I lived in Geneva, I also noticed things that were very weird, and I often had the feeling of being somewhere between Chekhov's Cherry Orchard and a pressure cooker. The police? Forget it. I would have started some investive stuff, but as a freelancer, no way. There was a report in 2007, I think, that suggested that the number of felonies in the city had jumped by 60 % (!!) in 2005 (or was it 2006). The police chief said it was not so, no other explanation needed, and the story vanished from the papers. Last year, then, I chanced to meet a big political wheel at a private bash. The man was at the top of government, he has his fingers in many pies. We chatted about how great the city is. I popped one tough question. Without breaking stride, he gave me a congenial smile and said "Le buffet est ouvert, allons manger."
That is Geneva.
Marton R, Jul 1, 2008 @ 23:20
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 19
Jul 1, 2008 @ 23:46
[quote][b]cigbar (01/07/2008)
[/b]Free, there were several police officers along the lake that day and I kept thinking I should stop them and inform them about these two men. As people do, I began rationising and considered the ramifications. I thought, well, they haven't committed a crime, what can the police possibly do? At the very most the police will speak to them. Then what does this mean? If I run into these two again and they are angry this time will I get off so lucky? Reading that it sounds so cowardly, I know. Coulda, shoulda, woulda.:( [/quote]
Coulda-shoulda-woulda are thought that come afterwards, and I am sure that, given the circumstances, you just felt like recovering. This being said, if cops don't know what is going in their jurisdiction, they are very unlikely to take measures. They do listen to you stories like yours, but yu may have to insist.
As for the guy who rubbed against you in a queue, a slap in his face is indeed all he deserves, but it may turn against you as you if he is of the aggressive type. When I get crushed like that (OK, it's not for the same reason) I just step back violently on his toe and apologize sincerely (Oh I'm sorry I did not realize you were so close). It usually works (OK, I'm 1m90 and it helps but you may have high heels). Alternative, turn to him and say loudly something like "Do you really think that I enjoy your rubbing against me" or "I understand that you have not seen a woman in ages, but please refrain yourself" or call the person at the cash desk and ask her loudly to call security as the guy behind you is bugging you.
[/b]Free, there were several police officers along the lake that day and I kept thinking I should stop them and inform them about these two men. As people do, I began rationising and considered the ramifications. I thought, well, they haven't committed a crime, what can the police possibly do? At the very most the police will speak to them. Then what does this mean? If I run into these two again and they are angry this time will I get off so lucky? Reading that it sounds so cowardly, I know. Coulda, shoulda, woulda.:( [/quote]
Coulda-shoulda-woulda are thought that come afterwards, and I am sure that, given the circumstances, you just felt like recovering. This being said, if cops don't know what is going in their jurisdiction, they are very unlikely to take measures. They do listen to you stories like yours, but yu may have to insist.
As for the guy who rubbed against you in a queue, a slap in his face is indeed all he deserves, but it may turn against you as you if he is of the aggressive type. When I get crushed like that (OK, it's not for the same reason) I just step back violently on his toe and apologize sincerely (Oh I'm sorry I did not realize you were so close). It usually works (OK, I'm 1m90 and it helps but you may have high heels). Alternative, turn to him and say loudly something like "Do you really think that I enjoy your rubbing against me" or "I understand that you have not seen a woman in ages, but please refrain yourself" or call the person at the cash desk and ask her loudly to call security as the guy behind you is bugging you.
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[quote][b]cigbar (01/07/2008)
[/b]Free, there were several police officers along the lake that day and I kept thinking I should stop them and inform them about these two men. As people do, I began rationising and considered the ramifications. I thought, well, they haven't committed a crime, what can the police possibly do? At the very most the police will speak to them. Then what does this mean? If I run into these two again and they are angry this time will I get off so lucky? Reading that it sounds so cowardly, I know. Coulda, shoulda, woulda.:( [/quote]
Coulda-shoulda-woulda are thought that come afterwards, and I am sure that, given the circumstances, you just felt like recovering. This being said, if cops don't know what is going in their jurisdiction, they are very unlikely to take measures. They do listen to you stories like yours, but yu may have to insist.
As for the guy who rubbed against you in a queue, a slap in his face is indeed all he deserves, but it may turn against you as you if he is of the aggressive type. When I get crushed like that (OK, it's not for the same reason) I just step back violently on his toe and apologize sincerely (Oh I'm sorry I did not realize you were so close). It usually works (OK, I'm 1m90 and it helps but you may have high heels). Alternative, turn to him and say loudly something like "Do you really think that I enjoy your rubbing against me" or "I understand that you have not seen a woman in ages, but please refrain yourself" or call the person at the cash desk and ask her loudly to call security as the guy behind you is bugging you.
Free, Jul 1, 2008 @ 23:46
[/b]Free, there were several police officers along the lake that day and I kept thinking I should stop them and inform them about these two men. As people do, I began rationising and considered the ramifications. I thought, well, they haven't committed a crime, what can the police possibly do? At the very most the police will speak to them. Then what does this mean? If I run into these two again and they are angry this time will I get off so lucky? Reading that it sounds so cowardly, I know. Coulda, shoulda, woulda.:( [/quote]
Coulda-shoulda-woulda are thought that come afterwards, and I am sure that, given the circumstances, you just felt like recovering. This being said, if cops don't know what is going in their jurisdiction, they are very unlikely to take measures. They do listen to you stories like yours, but yu may have to insist.
As for the guy who rubbed against you in a queue, a slap in his face is indeed all he deserves, but it may turn against you as you if he is of the aggressive type. When I get crushed like that (OK, it's not for the same reason) I just step back violently on his toe and apologize sincerely (Oh I'm sorry I did not realize you were so close). It usually works (OK, I'm 1m90 and it helps but you may have high heels). Alternative, turn to him and say loudly something like "Do you really think that I enjoy your rubbing against me" or "I understand that you have not seen a woman in ages, but please refrain yourself" or call the person at the cash desk and ask her loudly to call security as the guy behind you is bugging you.
Free, Jul 1, 2008 @ 23:46
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 20
Jul 2, 2008 @ 12:33
regarding your points on the police, on the first occasion that i got my wallet stolen (my new record is actually here in geneva- pickpocketed wallet 3 times in 2 years as well as a very nice coat :( ...) i went to the police to report the incident. they asked me where it happened and what was in my wallet, filled in a piece of paper and then gave me the number i'd need for the insurance. "don't you want to know a description of who they were, where they went or what time it was?" i asked them. "what for?" was their reply... i think that about sums up their attitude..
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regarding your points on the police, on the first occasion that i got my wallet stolen (my new record is actually here in geneva- pickpocketed wallet 3 times in 2 years as well as a very nice coat :( ...) i went to the police to report the incident. they asked me where it happened and what was in my wallet, filled in a piece of paper and then gave me the number i'd need for the insurance. "don't you want to know a description of who they were, where they went or what time it was?" i asked them. "what for?" was their reply... i think that about sums up their attitude..
G___, Jul 2, 2008 @ 12:33
G___, Jul 2, 2008 @ 12:33
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 21
Jul 2, 2008 @ 12:40
Cigbar, I think these are very disturbing experiences and am not surprised you feel very shaken by them. Generally, after 5 years here I feel Geneva is pretty safe - certainly far safer than the mean streets of my home town in little old New Zealand, where rape and sexual assault are unfortunately commonplace. I regularly walk home alone after dark here - something I simply wouldn't do back in Wellington, unless I was in a very well-lit area.
That said, there does seem to be a rather antiquated view of women here and I do find that a number of men seem to feel perfectly entitled comment on/approach/yell at/ and sometimes, try to touch women in a way that would be considered an offence where I come from. I have at various times been road-raged, followed, etc. The one that annoys me the most are the stupid comments when I'm out running! I find that a loud verbal response, even in english, usually does the trick. Even if people can't understand the words, they get the tone.
As for approaching the police, intimidation is a crime in most countries and should also be here. Therefore I think you should feel entitled to approach a cop if this ever happens again. They are not, in my experience, the most friendly or helpful police, but are generally professional in their conduct and many speak at least a little english (if you're worried about expressing yourself in french) and I'm sure would at least hear you out. Maybe squeezing out a tear or two wouldn't go amiss!
Geneva also seems to have more than its fair share of nutters. There are quite a few unhinged individuals wandering around and one does need to be aware of them.
Good luck Cigbar! Feel free to drop me a line if you want to talk more about this. x
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Cigbar, I think these are very disturbing experiences and am not surprised you feel very shaken by them. Generally, after 5 years here I feel Geneva is pretty safe - certainly far safer than the mean streets of my home town in little old New Zealand, where rape and sexual assault are unfortunately commonplace. I regularly walk home alone after dark here - something I simply wouldn't do back in Wellington, unless I was in a very well-lit area.
That said, there does seem to be a rather antiquated view of women here and I do find that a number of men seem to feel perfectly entitled comment on/approach/yell at/ and sometimes, try to touch women in a way that would be considered an offence where I come from. I have at various times been road-raged, followed, etc. The one that annoys me the most are the stupid comments when I'm out running! I find that a loud verbal response, even in english, usually does the trick. Even if people can't understand the words, they get the tone.
As for approaching the police, intimidation is a crime in most countries and should also be here. Therefore I think you should feel entitled to approach a cop if this ever happens again. They are not, in my experience, the most friendly or helpful police, but are generally professional in their conduct and many speak at least a little english (if you're worried about expressing yourself in french) and I'm sure would at least hear you out. Maybe squeezing out a tear or two wouldn't go amiss!
Geneva also seems to have more than its fair share of nutters. There are quite a few unhinged individuals wandering around and one does need to be aware of them.
Good luck Cigbar! Feel free to drop me a line if you want to talk more about this. x
Bella98, Jul 2, 2008 @ 12:40
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 22
Jul 2, 2008 @ 12:54
From a male perspective I feel very safe in Geneva and haven't had to deal with any issue of intimidation or loss of property , that said I'm sure I've just been lucky. In my home town I'm very conscious of issues of violence especially alcohol fuelled (yes I'm from the UK) and because of this I try to make sure I'm never in situation where things can get out of hand.
We should all not lose sight of the fact that for the most part we are in a country where extremes of violence are not common place even if not every incident appears to be reported widely.
Without worrying people I'm sure we just need to remind new visitors that they should know what to do or contact when involved in a incident, like copies of their credit cards and passport number .etc. so that it becomes just an irritation rather than a drama.
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From a male perspective I feel very safe in Geneva and haven't had to deal with any issue of intimidation or loss of property , that said I'm sure I've just been lucky. In my home town I'm very conscious of issues of violence especially alcohol fuelled (yes I'm from the UK) and because of this I try to make sure I'm never in situation where things can get out of hand.
We should all not lose sight of the fact that for the most part we are in a country where extremes of violence are not common place even if not every incident appears to be reported widely.
Without worrying people I'm sure we just need to remind new visitors that they should know what to do or contact when involved in a incident, like copies of their credit cards and passport number .etc. so that it becomes just an irritation rather than a drama.
britabroad, Jul 2, 2008 @ 12:54
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 23
Jul 2, 2008 @ 14:11
Dear all,
Cigbar: I wish you good luck, and hope this will not happen to you again...
As a Swiss (originally NOT from Geneva), let me tell you the way I feel in this city:
-I don't think the city, state in general, or the media are hiding anything from me at all (Dean) - but indeed, I read the local newspaper and Swiss media in general.
-I think Geneva is, in general, a VERY safe city (much safer than most cities abroad, and believe me I have seen many). Things do happen sometimes, but things can happen anywhere nowadays, and I still feel safe here in general. This is a safe country altogether.
-I have heard that, indeed, the police in Geneva could do better sometimes. But I'm fine walking in the city. Just be a bit cautious at night, as you would in ANY city in the world.
-I mostly think that expats should learn the local language (French) - it would help a lot to adjust to the culture here, chill out, not be paranoid (like thinking the media is hiding everything, etc.) although I totally understand Cigbar - but indeed, speaking French would've probably helped to understand the guys, who were maybe just teasing - or would've helped to yell back at them ; am not speaking about the other weirdo, though, who probably deserved to be put back in place). I speak several languages, and this helps a LOT not to feel scared when I'm in an unknown place abroad, and to understand what is going on. I think learning the local language is the KEY to feeling well in a place...And I can tell you this place is just fine :-) Best wishes to all of you
The text you are quoting:
Dear all,
Cigbar: I wish you good luck, and hope this will not happen to you again...
As a Swiss (originally NOT from Geneva), let me tell you the way I feel in this city:
-I don't think the city, state in general, or the media are hiding anything from me at all (Dean) - but indeed, I read the local newspaper and Swiss media in general.
-I think Geneva is, in general, a VERY safe city (much safer than most cities abroad, and believe me I have seen many). Things do happen sometimes, but things can happen anywhere nowadays, and I still feel safe here in general. This is a safe country altogether.
-I have heard that, indeed, the police in Geneva could do better sometimes. But I'm fine walking in the city. Just be a bit cautious at night, as you would in ANY city in the world.
-I mostly think that expats should learn the local language (French) - it would help a lot to adjust to the culture here, chill out, not be paranoid (like thinking the media is hiding everything, etc.) although I totally understand Cigbar - but indeed, speaking French would've probably helped to understand the guys, who were maybe just teasing - or would've helped to yell back at them ; am not speaking about the other weirdo, though, who probably deserved to be put back in place). I speak several languages, and this helps a LOT not to feel scared when I'm in an unknown place abroad, and to understand what is going on. I think learning the local language is the KEY to feeling well in a place...And I can tell you this place is just fine :-) Best wishes to all of you
Elsuizo, Jul 2, 2008 @ 14:11
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 24
Jul 2, 2008 @ 15:23
I lived in another utopian state before moving here: The Shangri-la-land of Luxembourg. Where the Catholic church essentially controls the majority of the media. Can you imagine living in a land where the only criminals are illegal immigrants who, while you were sleeping and before you even have the chance to rub the sleep from your eyes, have already been forced from their homes and sent back to Eastern Europe. Heaven forbid one would have to wake up to such atrocities as immigrants!
So when I moved to this area I was a little surprised by the amount of homes hidden behind gates. Even my own home has a gate and the house is wired up to a security system. It's a funny feeling to live so close to your neighbours but to isolate yourself from them. It's also a funny feeling having motion sensors IN your house and windows and doors that flash red light upon opening and closing. It's the electronic "Eye" that is the most disconcerting. I wonder sometimes if the people who man the security system desk know my every move(ment). :ermm:
If you've seen Bowling for Columbine you already know that Canadians don't even lock their doors at night so I asked a couple of people if there was really a need for such security. What is it we're suppose to be so afraid of? A rather "aw bless you sweet naive child" smile and a "better to be safe" was all I got. Maybe they were right. And maybe I have been complacent in part because for the last three years I haven't been exposed to what's really going on.
(And Translator, I used to live quite near your hometown. Just the other side of the border and a little further north on Lake Huron. I would love (LOVE!) to go out for that drink sometime.)
So when I moved to this area I was a little surprised by the amount of homes hidden behind gates. Even my own home has a gate and the house is wired up to a security system. It's a funny feeling to live so close to your neighbours but to isolate yourself from them. It's also a funny feeling having motion sensors IN your house and windows and doors that flash red light upon opening and closing. It's the electronic "Eye" that is the most disconcerting. I wonder sometimes if the people who man the security system desk know my every move(ment). :ermm:
If you've seen Bowling for Columbine you already know that Canadians don't even lock their doors at night so I asked a couple of people if there was really a need for such security. What is it we're suppose to be so afraid of? A rather "aw bless you sweet naive child" smile and a "better to be safe" was all I got. Maybe they were right. And maybe I have been complacent in part because for the last three years I haven't been exposed to what's really going on.
(And Translator, I used to live quite near your hometown. Just the other side of the border and a little further north on Lake Huron. I would love (LOVE!) to go out for that drink sometime.)
The text you are quoting:
I lived in another utopian state before moving here: The Shangri-la-land of Luxembourg. Where the Catholic church essentially controls the majority of the media. Can you imagine living in a land where the only criminals are illegal immigrants who, while you were sleeping and before you even have the chance to rub the sleep from your eyes, have already been forced from their homes and sent back to Eastern Europe. Heaven forbid one would have to wake up to such atrocities as immigrants!
So when I moved to this area I was a little surprised by the amount of homes hidden behind gates. Even my own home has a gate and the house is wired up to a security system. It's a funny feeling to live so close to your neighbours but to isolate yourself from them. It's also a funny feeling having motion sensors IN your house and windows and doors that flash red light upon opening and closing. It's the electronic "Eye" that is the most disconcerting. I wonder sometimes if the people who man the security system desk know my every move(ment). :ermm:
If you've seen Bowling for Columbine you already know that Canadians don't even lock their doors at night so I asked a couple of people if there was really a need for such security. What is it we're suppose to be so afraid of? A rather "aw bless you sweet naive child" smile and a "better to be safe" was all I got. Maybe they were right. And maybe I have been complacent in part because for the last three years I haven't been exposed to what's really going on.
(And Translator, I used to live quite near your hometown. Just the other side of the border and a little further north on Lake Huron. I would love (LOVE!) to go out for that drink sometime.)
cigbar, Jul 2, 2008 @ 15:23
So when I moved to this area I was a little surprised by the amount of homes hidden behind gates. Even my own home has a gate and the house is wired up to a security system. It's a funny feeling to live so close to your neighbours but to isolate yourself from them. It's also a funny feeling having motion sensors IN your house and windows and doors that flash red light upon opening and closing. It's the electronic "Eye" that is the most disconcerting. I wonder sometimes if the people who man the security system desk know my every move(ment). :ermm:
If you've seen Bowling for Columbine you already know that Canadians don't even lock their doors at night so I asked a couple of people if there was really a need for such security. What is it we're suppose to be so afraid of? A rather "aw bless you sweet naive child" smile and a "better to be safe" was all I got. Maybe they were right. And maybe I have been complacent in part because for the last three years I haven't been exposed to what's really going on.
(And Translator, I used to live quite near your hometown. Just the other side of the border and a little further north on Lake Huron. I would love (LOVE!) to go out for that drink sometime.)
cigbar, Jul 2, 2008 @ 15:23
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 25
Jul 2, 2008 @ 16:26
sorry but i'm not sure that learning the language is the key to being safe anywhere. i've had 3 muggings in the time that i've been here, each by french speaking idiots and understanding them saying "tu me cherche conard" when there's 3 of them doesn't help me feel any safer. having a background in martial arts does though and almost each time all backed off once they realised i wasn't intimidated.
the best thing to do is always just keep walking on, and ignore whoever is trying to start on you. hitting or getting into that kind of a violence situation is really and absolutely last resort if you're really feeling threatened!
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sorry but i'm not sure that learning the language is the key to being safe anywhere. i've had 3 muggings in the time that i've been here, each by french speaking idiots and understanding them saying "tu me cherche conard" when there's 3 of them doesn't help me feel any safer. having a background in martial arts does though and almost each time all backed off once they realised i wasn't intimidated.
the best thing to do is always just keep walking on, and ignore whoever is trying to start on you. hitting or getting into that kind of a violence situation is really and absolutely last resort if you're really feeling threatened!
G___, Jul 2, 2008 @ 16:26
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 26
Jul 2, 2008 @ 17:51
True, anything can happen in any city. But knowing the language is not crucial, I myself, speak several languages fluently. And I have moved around a lot. In Geneva, after 3 years, the summary from friends (first-hand info): several muggings, one friend got bashed over the head with a bottle for no apparent reason. One friend out walking in the evening got raped near the Pont des Acacias, several friends had their apartments burgled. Another firend's car was stolen and willfully destroyed. My own car was vandalized twice (the graffitti was ok, but the scratches are a real problem), and my car is just a simple VW. Then there was the junkie doing his lines in front of his 5-year-old son in the entrance of my building... You don't have to speak french or any other language to understand that. Somehow, I never had such news while living in Munich (7 years) or, say, Vienna (2 years).
In GE I lived near a club. Friday and Saturday nights the street was hell, the park behind the house was a mess with boozing, screaming kids. The next day, where children played in the grass, there were broken bottles, roaches, even the occasional condom and needle. Fights and passer-by harrassment were the order of the night. The drag racing with daddy's BMW and Mercedes, etc... went on until 5 a.m. at least. I filmed it even. 9 petitions went to the city: no action. I called the police. If shrugging a shoulder has a sound, that is what came through the phone. However, if you cycled down the WELL-LIT street at night without a light, you betcha.... Monsieur l'agent was there to fine you. And while doing so, the Porsche revved and went through 4 gears before screeching to a stop at Acacias... Wow! Monsieur l'agent did not even turn his head. I am not inventing this.
Believe me, french-speaking or not, the Geneva police is marshmallow and they make sure that Geneva's halo is always spotless. You never know if the idiot you have to arrest is not some wheel or some wheel's son. Pas touche.
The text you are quoting:
True, anything can happen in any city. But knowing the language is not crucial, I myself, speak several languages fluently. And I have moved around a lot. In Geneva, after 3 years, the summary from friends (first-hand info): several muggings, one friend got bashed over the head with a bottle for no apparent reason. One friend out walking in the evening got raped near the Pont des Acacias, several friends had their apartments burgled. Another firend's car was stolen and willfully destroyed. My own car was vandalized twice (the graffitti was ok, but the scratches are a real problem), and my car is just a simple VW. Then there was the junkie doing his lines in front of his 5-year-old son in the entrance of my building... You don't have to speak french or any other language to understand that. Somehow, I never had such news while living in Munich (7 years) or, say, Vienna (2 years).
In GE I lived near a club. Friday and Saturday nights the street was hell, the park behind the house was a mess with boozing, screaming kids. The next day, where children played in the grass, there were broken bottles, roaches, even the occasional condom and needle. Fights and passer-by harrassment were the order of the night. The drag racing with daddy's BMW and Mercedes, etc... went on until 5 a.m. at least. I filmed it even. 9 petitions went to the city: no action. I called the police. If shrugging a shoulder has a sound, that is what came through the phone. However, if you cycled down the WELL-LIT street at night without a light, you betcha.... Monsieur l'agent was there to fine you. And while doing so, the Porsche revved and went through 4 gears before screeching to a stop at Acacias... Wow! Monsieur l'agent did not even turn his head. I am not inventing this.
Believe me, french-speaking or not, the Geneva police is marshmallow and they make sure that Geneva's halo is always spotless. You never know if the idiot you have to arrest is not some wheel or some wheel's son. Pas touche.
Marton R, Jul 2, 2008 @ 17:51
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 27
Jul 2, 2008 @ 18:16
Just a thought - again, from a local's point of view: speaking the local language doesn't really make one safer, of course, but does help understand what is going on, and get integrated to the place. If people ask other people how things are going on, without speaking the local language, I believe they'll never get the real picture.
As for the unlocked doors at night, well, you can totally do it here. But indeed, it is not part of Swiss mentality to take "risks" (you've probably noticed that;), so most people will lock their doors... If you are lucky enough to live in a house in this area, well it makes sense: this is a fairly big, and rich, city, on the border area (meaning there are a lot of people coming and going, not all of them well-intentioned). So people are probably more likely to break into your house. But if you live elsewhere in this country, you can perfectly NOT use any safety device, gating system, etc. (no one I know does!!!) Just like Canada... Try to see for yourself and you'll agree. I believe this is an extremely safe city, and that I am totally aware of what is happening when I read the local paper.
One more thing: it is obvious, when one knows the rest of Switzerland, that more bikes (and probably anything) get stolen here. From my point it is both the border factor, and the bigger city factor, that cause this. But otherwise, I can't see how this city could be seen as more dangerous than - to take the same example - Canadian cities, for instance (been there)... Sh* happens, but it does anywhere. So...relax, enjoy and bonne chance!
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Just a thought - again, from a local's point of view: speaking the local language doesn't really make one safer, of course, but does help understand what is going on, and get integrated to the place. If people ask other people how things are going on, without speaking the local language, I believe they'll never get the real picture.
As for the unlocked doors at night, well, you can totally do it here. But indeed, it is not part of Swiss mentality to take "risks" (you've probably noticed that;), so most people will lock their doors... If you are lucky enough to live in a house in this area, well it makes sense: this is a fairly big, and rich, city, on the border area (meaning there are a lot of people coming and going, not all of them well-intentioned). So people are probably more likely to break into your house. But if you live elsewhere in this country, you can perfectly NOT use any safety device, gating system, etc. (no one I know does!!!) Just like Canada... Try to see for yourself and you'll agree. I believe this is an extremely safe city, and that I am totally aware of what is happening when I read the local paper.
One more thing: it is obvious, when one knows the rest of Switzerland, that more bikes (and probably anything) get stolen here. From my point it is both the border factor, and the bigger city factor, that cause this. But otherwise, I can't see how this city could be seen as more dangerous than - to take the same example - Canadian cities, for instance (been there)... Sh* happens, but it does anywhere. So...relax, enjoy and bonne chance!
Elsuizo, Jul 2, 2008 @ 18:16
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 28
Jul 2, 2008 @ 18:51
Ok...To Talleyrand: hadn't seen your post. Well, maybe you're just right. It's true that the police here does not have a very good reputation... Maybe also that local people know and protect each other too much (police, politics and money). I still believe many things like what you said happen anywhere, I lived near junkies in Lausanne (with all the dealing, needle & blood problems), Zurich had a huge number of junkies in the past and also gets the odd bad "fait divers" or murder, and I can't tell you how many things I heard of (or have witnessed) in Paris. Anyhow, maybe you're right! Je ne sais pas...
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Ok...To Talleyrand: hadn't seen your post. Well, maybe you're just right. It's true that the police here does not have a very good reputation... Maybe also that local people know and protect each other too much (police, politics and money). I still believe many things like what you said happen anywhere, I lived near junkies in Lausanne (with all the dealing, needle & blood problems), Zurich had a huge number of junkies in the past and also gets the odd bad "fait divers" or murder, and I can't tell you how many things I heard of (or have witnessed) in Paris. Anyhow, maybe you're right! Je ne sais pas...
Elsuizo, Jul 2, 2008 @ 18:51
Elsuizo, Jul 2, 2008 @ 18:51
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 29
Jul 2, 2008 @ 22:27
Hi Elsuizo... I am not saying it is better or worse elsewhere ( both are surely true, I also lived in New York's alphabet city in the late 70s, that was no picnic), but the halo-polishing is really egregious in Geneva, I find. As long as the rich and ultra-rich are not touched and the Great Unwashed gets its "shocking" news from such excuses for newspapers as the TdG and Le Matin, then all is well in Eden.
You are right, Zurich, Paris (I also lived there, too) are not that easy either, but I don't see that much suppression of the news there. And Paris is, well.... Paris. BTW: I knew Geneva in the 1970s as well.... it was very, very different.
And BTW: I like Geneva a lot.
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Hi Elsuizo... I am not saying it is better or worse elsewhere ( both are surely true, I also lived in New York's alphabet city in the late 70s, that was no picnic), but the halo-polishing is really egregious in Geneva, I find. As long as the rich and ultra-rich are not touched and the Great Unwashed gets its "shocking" news from such excuses for newspapers as the TdG and Le Matin, then all is well in Eden.
You are right, Zurich, Paris (I also lived there, too) are not that easy either, but I don't see that much suppression of the news there. And Paris is, well.... Paris. BTW: I knew Geneva in the 1970s as well.... it was very, very different.
And BTW: I like Geneva a lot.
Marton R, Jul 2, 2008 @ 22:27
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 30
Jul 4, 2008 @ 04:23
Anyone tried writing up and petitioning the elected officials? Is there an ombudsman for the Police Cantonale de Geneve..?
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Anyone tried writing up and petitioning the elected officials? Is there an ombudsman for the Police Cantonale de Geneve..?
colorado, Jul 4, 2008 @ 04:23
colorado, Jul 4, 2008 @ 04:23
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 31
Jul 4, 2008 @ 09:26
Hi Cigbar!
Just like any city, Geneva is VERY international... bringing foreigners in from all over the world... bringing good things to this city.... and ah yes, bad thingstoo. It's too bad this has happened to you and I hate whne things like that happen.
I lives in Vancouver for the past 8 yrs... where you get your car broken into much too often... where the streets are covered with homeless people stonned out or doing a crak-dance. Where every 2 meters you have somebody begging for money... all this in the city that will be hosting the 2010 Olympics!
It's too bad you dint understand what that man was saying, bc you could have been a little more agresive in your approach depending on what he was saying.
I'm out in the countryside, and would love to go for a walk by the lake... feel free to drop me a line (no Im not gay and Im not an agressor!)
Cheers and stay alert!:w00t:
Twiggy
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Hi Cigbar!
Just like any city, Geneva is VERY international... bringing foreigners in from all over the world... bringing good things to this city.... and ah yes, bad thingstoo. It's too bad this has happened to you and I hate whne things like that happen.
I lives in Vancouver for the past 8 yrs... where you get your car broken into much too often... where the streets are covered with homeless people stonned out or doing a crak-dance. Where every 2 meters you have somebody begging for money... all this in the city that will be hosting the 2010 Olympics!
It's too bad you dint understand what that man was saying, bc you could have been a little more agresive in your approach depending on what he was saying.
I'm out in the countryside, and would love to go for a walk by the lake... feel free to drop me a line (no Im not gay and Im not an agressor!)
Cheers and stay alert!:w00t:
Twiggy
twiggy_sf, Jul 4, 2008 @ 09:26
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 32
Jul 4, 2008 @ 10:15
I never had a problem in Geneva so far, but I heard this from 3 female friends:
One had a problem walking from the station to plainpalais at about 10pm. A man followed her and then tried to stop her blocking her way. She called me (instead of the police) then he left, after she made this phonecall. I arrived 7mins later.
The two other friends had problems by guys blocking their way in the english garden close to the fountain late afternoon coming from the MountBlanc bridge walking in the Eaux Vives direction.
Just some ideas:
To make you feel more save and confident, there is a shop in Rue de Lausanne selling small CS-Gas sprays for self protection which fit perfectly in a handbag. Have it with you, know how to use it and remember where it is.
I know this is a controversial matter but it helps. If you don't like to carry such a "weapon", and you might be too shocked to scream loud (which also helps to get attention), carry a whistle and used it if somebody blocks your way. Don't feel awkward doing it.
Always call the police after bad experiences. Even if they can not do something now (mostly they can), they plan their patrols and operations depending on this information. So you call is important and always helps.
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I never had a problem in Geneva so far, but I heard this from 3 female friends:
One had a problem walking from the station to plainpalais at about 10pm. A man followed her and then tried to stop her blocking her way. She called me (instead of the police) then he left, after she made this phonecall. I arrived 7mins later.
The two other friends had problems by guys blocking their way in the english garden close to the fountain late afternoon coming from the MountBlanc bridge walking in the Eaux Vives direction.
Just some ideas:
To make you feel more save and confident, there is a shop in Rue de Lausanne selling small CS-Gas sprays for self protection which fit perfectly in a handbag. Have it with you, know how to use it and remember where it is.
I know this is a controversial matter but it helps. If you don't like to carry such a "weapon", and you might be too shocked to scream loud (which also helps to get attention), carry a whistle and used it if somebody blocks your way. Don't feel awkward doing it.
Always call the police after bad experiences. Even if they can not do something now (mostly they can), they plan their patrols and operations depending on this information. So you call is important and always helps.
yannik, Jul 4, 2008 @ 10:15
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 33
Jul 4, 2008 @ 12:12
Dear Cigbar,
It's so unfortunate that you experienced this type of behaviour here in Geneva. I too have had my fair share of bad situations with men, most of them being quite harmless but then in some cases where I thought my life was in danger.
I too am not from Geneva and don't know that many people yet and I guess in a way these men can sense this. I'm not sure what you look like but in my case you can clearly tell that I am not from this part of the world, which still does not give any man the right to invade your privacy and try to take advantage of you.
I find that being confident does help your own self esteem and most cowardly guys will see this as a threat. So learn to hold your head up high and don't let this bad experience pull you back into your shell and hide your beauty from the world. I know this feeling and have been there before but life is worth living and appreciate all the good that this city can offer but still being cautious of those around you.
I'm going to be holding a "girls only" party soon where we get to speak about anything and everything and drink lots of cocktails, you are more than welcome to come, I will post it on glocals, I just need to set the dates etc. I know how being in a city where you don't know anyone can be hard and very lonely, so feel free to drop me a message if you ever wanted to go along to one of the activities but you don't want to go alone.
For now, take care and know that there are good people out there, just not the ones that hide behind bushes!
Hayley
The text you are quoting:
Dear Cigbar,
It's so unfortunate that you experienced this type of behaviour here in Geneva. I too have had my fair share of bad situations with men, most of them being quite harmless but then in some cases where I thought my life was in danger.
I too am not from Geneva and don't know that many people yet and I guess in a way these men can sense this. I'm not sure what you look like but in my case you can clearly tell that I am not from this part of the world, which still does not give any man the right to invade your privacy and try to take advantage of you.
I find that being confident does help your own self esteem and most cowardly guys will see this as a threat. So learn to hold your head up high and don't let this bad experience pull you back into your shell and hide your beauty from the world. I know this feeling and have been there before but life is worth living and appreciate all the good that this city can offer but still being cautious of those around you.
I'm going to be holding a "girls only" party soon where we get to speak about anything and everything and drink lots of cocktails, you are more than welcome to come, I will post it on glocals, I just need to set the dates etc. I know how being in a city where you don't know anyone can be hard and very lonely, so feel free to drop me a message if you ever wanted to go along to one of the activities but you don't want to go alone.
For now, take care and know that there are good people out there, just not the ones that hide behind bushes!
Hayley
KiwiGirl, Jul 4, 2008 @ 12:12
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 34
Jul 4, 2008 @ 12:36
Dear Cigbar,
It is very unfortunate that you experienced this bad behaviour here in Geneva and my heart goes out to you for having had this done, especially when you don't have friends or family here to protect you.
I too have had my fair share of bad experiences with men here and in other coutries. Most of them being quite harmless but also a few where I have seriously felt my life was in danger.
I'm not too sure what you look like but in my case you can clearly tell that I am not from this part of the world, and I also don't know alot of people, yet this still does not give any man the right to invade your privacy and try to take advantage of you.
Being confident about yourself will definitely help with your own self esteem and maybe these coward guys will see this as a threat. So hold your head up high and don't let these events get you down and make you run back into your shell, as life is worth living it the way you want, but also still being aware of all the things around you.
I would like to hold a "girls only" cocktail party, where we get to talk about anything and everything and meet others and you are more than welcome to come along. I will post it on glocals once dates, times etc have been confirmed. I know how lonely you can feel in a city where you know noone, so by all means contact me if you ever want to go along to one of the glocals activities and don't want to go alone, but I'm sure you are going to meet loads of people once you get out there (just hopefully none of these weirdos).
For now, take care and know that there are good people here in Geneva, just not the ones hiding behind bushes!
Hayley
The text you are quoting:
Dear Cigbar,
It is very unfortunate that you experienced this bad behaviour here in Geneva and my heart goes out to you for having had this done, especially when you don't have friends or family here to protect you.
I too have had my fair share of bad experiences with men here and in other coutries. Most of them being quite harmless but also a few where I have seriously felt my life was in danger.
I'm not too sure what you look like but in my case you can clearly tell that I am not from this part of the world, and I also don't know alot of people, yet this still does not give any man the right to invade your privacy and try to take advantage of you.
Being confident about yourself will definitely help with your own self esteem and maybe these coward guys will see this as a threat. So hold your head up high and don't let these events get you down and make you run back into your shell, as life is worth living it the way you want, but also still being aware of all the things around you.
I would like to hold a "girls only" cocktail party, where we get to talk about anything and everything and meet others and you are more than welcome to come along. I will post it on glocals once dates, times etc have been confirmed. I know how lonely you can feel in a city where you know noone, so by all means contact me if you ever want to go along to one of the glocals activities and don't want to go alone, but I'm sure you are going to meet loads of people once you get out there (just hopefully none of these weirdos).
For now, take care and know that there are good people here in Geneva, just not the ones hiding behind bushes!
Hayley
KiwiGirl, Jul 4, 2008 @ 12:36
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 35
Jul 4, 2008 @ 12:40
I am also frightened by some women especially while passing by la terasse a bit later in the night. Any suggestion would be appreciated.
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I am also frightened by some women especially while passing by la terasse a bit later in the night. Any suggestion would be appreciated.
Rasputin, Jul 4, 2008 @ 12:40
Rasputin, Jul 4, 2008 @ 12:40
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 36
Jul 4, 2008 @ 12:43
Lol! Sorry I had a few problems with my post as I had an error show on my computer and thought it didn't get posted so had to try to remember my words, lol.
Take care anyhow!
Hayley
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Lol! Sorry I had a few problems with my post as I had an error show on my computer and thought it didn't get posted so had to try to remember my words, lol.
Take care anyhow!
Hayley
KiwiGirl, Jul 4, 2008 @ 12:43
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 37
Jul 4, 2008 @ 12:45
i'm not surprised for Carrefour ; lot of stupid guy live there....Geneva has changed...9 years ago i could walk alone at 3 o clock of the morning in desert street, lots of police patrol, today there is a "cool attitude" because some persons want Geneva to be cool and friendly without police and security because they think that police and security suck and that everybody is nice, blablaa
That kind of people, of course NEVER been annoyed, harassed so they think like that...When you're a girl, especially, pretty, you can be annoyed....don't forget that some people cross the border only for making disaster "in the rich Geneva" cause they stupidly think like that...
The text you are quoting:
i'm not surprised for Carrefour ; lot of stupid guy live there....Geneva has changed...9 years ago i could walk alone at 3 o clock of the morning in desert street, lots of police patrol, today there is a "cool attitude" because some persons want Geneva to be cool and friendly without police and security because they think that police and security suck and that everybody is nice, blablaa
That kind of people, of course NEVER been annoyed, harassed so they think like that...When you're a girl, especially, pretty, you can be annoyed....don't forget that some people cross the border only for making disaster "in the rich Geneva" cause they stupidly think like that...
TSATSA, Jul 4, 2008 @ 12:45
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 38
Jul 4, 2008 @ 13:04
[quote][b]Rasputin (04/07/2008)[/b][hr]I am also frightened by some women especially while passing by la terasse a bit later in the night. Any suggestion would be appreciated.[/quote]
OK, this is a serious thread, but I had to bite on Rasputin's hook (without meaning to be-litttle the 'real topic' here).
Rasputin:
I'll give you a suggestion. When you see a scary looking woman late at night, just walk away. You know what happended last time you invited her to your place! I don't want to get more calls from you at 7h30 in the morning on a weekend, asking me to come help you!
The text you are quoting:
[quote][b]Rasputin (04/07/2008)[/b][hr]I am also frightened by some women especially while passing by la terasse a bit later in the night. Any suggestion would be appreciated.[/quote]
OK, this is a serious thread, but I had to bite on Rasputin's hook (without meaning to be-litttle the 'real topic' here).
Rasputin:
I'll give you a suggestion. When you see a scary looking woman late at night, just walk away. You know what happended last time you invited her to your place! I don't want to get more calls from you at 7h30 in the morning on a weekend, asking me to come help you!
Nir Ofek, Jul 4, 2008 @ 13:04
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 39
Jul 4, 2008 @ 13:14
Nir , I presume this young lady is normally a mild mannered scientist until made angry (you won't like her angry).
The text you are quoting:
Nir , I presume this young lady is normally a mild mannered scientist until made angry (you won't like her angry).
britabroad, Jul 4, 2008 @ 13:14
britabroad, Jul 4, 2008 @ 13:14
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 40
Jul 4, 2008 @ 13:17
Britabroad: I don't know, she's Rasputin's girlfriend. Let's ask him...
The text you are quoting:
Britabroad: I don't know, she's Rasputin's girlfriend. Let's ask him...
Nir Ofek, Jul 4, 2008 @ 13:17
Nir Ofek, Jul 4, 2008 @ 13:17
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 41
Jul 4, 2008 @ 13:20
OK, this is a serious thread, but I had to bite on Rasputin's hook (without meaning to be-litttle the 'real topic' here).
Rasputin:
I'll give you a suggestion. When you see a scary looking woman late at night, just walk away. You know what happended last time you invited her to your place! I don't want to get more calls from you at 7h30 in the morning on a weekend, asking me to come help you!
[/quote]dude, you know that i appreciated your help a lot last time, but when did you take her photo?? I thought you would just give her a ride
The text you are quoting:
OK, this is a serious thread, but I had to bite on Rasputin's hook (without meaning to be-litttle the 'real topic' here).
Rasputin:
I'll give you a suggestion. When you see a scary looking woman late at night, just walk away. You know what happended last time you invited her to your place! I don't want to get more calls from you at 7h30 in the morning on a weekend, asking me to come help you!
[/quote]dude, you know that i appreciated your help a lot last time, but when did you take her photo?? I thought you would just give her a ride
Rasputin, Jul 4, 2008 @ 13:20
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 42
Jul 4, 2008 @ 13:51
I hate to have to do it, but I feel like somebody should bring a little balance in here!
Cigbar,
yours were certainly unpleasant experiences, but not even that much to worry about, and I'm over all worrying by some reactions on this thread, of people who will start going paranoid and freaking out when walking around.
The Supermarket story... very unpleasant! But not a threat. As somebody suggested it would have been enough to turn around, slap him straight in the face or start yelling "Keep your dirty hands off my butt, you pig!" And than call security. But over all you (and the others over-reacting here) shouldn't go paranoid about it, because that would be a worse harm to you than somebody unable to resist your charm! ;)
For the second story, after all you admitted you didn't understand what they were saying: maybe the first guy was trying a pick up line, or asking for a cigarette, and found your reaction simply impolite, thus started to yell at you. The other guy could have thought you had stolen something from the first guy.
If somebody in the street yells "stop that person", the first thing I think is that there is a pickpocket. Actually once I helped stopping a pickpocket in the train station.
I'd be astonished to discover it was an aggression of any kind, at 17.00 in one of the most crowded places in town!
The moral here is that we shouldn't get paranoid. Geneva is still one of the safest, respectful, relaxed places you can think about. That doesn't mean that you should walk home alone at 3 a.m. wearing extremely sexy stuff and precious jewels on top, but not even that you should start worrying all the time.
Cigbar,
yours were certainly unpleasant experiences, but not even that much to worry about, and I'm over all worrying by some reactions on this thread, of people who will start going paranoid and freaking out when walking around.
The Supermarket story... very unpleasant! But not a threat. As somebody suggested it would have been enough to turn around, slap him straight in the face or start yelling "Keep your dirty hands off my butt, you pig!" And than call security. But over all you (and the others over-reacting here) shouldn't go paranoid about it, because that would be a worse harm to you than somebody unable to resist your charm! ;)
For the second story, after all you admitted you didn't understand what they were saying: maybe the first guy was trying a pick up line, or asking for a cigarette, and found your reaction simply impolite, thus started to yell at you. The other guy could have thought you had stolen something from the first guy.
If somebody in the street yells "stop that person", the first thing I think is that there is a pickpocket. Actually once I helped stopping a pickpocket in the train station.
I'd be astonished to discover it was an aggression of any kind, at 17.00 in one of the most crowded places in town!
The moral here is that we shouldn't get paranoid. Geneva is still one of the safest, respectful, relaxed places you can think about. That doesn't mean that you should walk home alone at 3 a.m. wearing extremely sexy stuff and precious jewels on top, but not even that you should start worrying all the time.
The text you are quoting:
I hate to have to do it, but I feel like somebody should bring a little balance in here!
Cigbar,
yours were certainly unpleasant experiences, but not even that much to worry about, and I'm over all worrying by some reactions on this thread, of people who will start going paranoid and freaking out when walking around.
The Supermarket story... very unpleasant! But not a threat. As somebody suggested it would have been enough to turn around, slap him straight in the face or start yelling "Keep your dirty hands off my butt, you pig!" And than call security. But over all you (and the others over-reacting here) shouldn't go paranoid about it, because that would be a worse harm to you than somebody unable to resist your charm! ;)
For the second story, after all you admitted you didn't understand what they were saying: maybe the first guy was trying a pick up line, or asking for a cigarette, and found your reaction simply impolite, thus started to yell at you. The other guy could have thought you had stolen something from the first guy.
If somebody in the street yells "stop that person", the first thing I think is that there is a pickpocket. Actually once I helped stopping a pickpocket in the train station.
I'd be astonished to discover it was an aggression of any kind, at 17.00 in one of the most crowded places in town!
The moral here is that we shouldn't get paranoid. Geneva is still one of the safest, respectful, relaxed places you can think about. That doesn't mean that you should walk home alone at 3 a.m. wearing extremely sexy stuff and precious jewels on top, but not even that you should start worrying all the time.
Stef__Granny, Jul 4, 2008 @ 13:51
Cigbar,
yours were certainly unpleasant experiences, but not even that much to worry about, and I'm over all worrying by some reactions on this thread, of people who will start going paranoid and freaking out when walking around.
The Supermarket story... very unpleasant! But not a threat. As somebody suggested it would have been enough to turn around, slap him straight in the face or start yelling "Keep your dirty hands off my butt, you pig!" And than call security. But over all you (and the others over-reacting here) shouldn't go paranoid about it, because that would be a worse harm to you than somebody unable to resist your charm! ;)
For the second story, after all you admitted you didn't understand what they were saying: maybe the first guy was trying a pick up line, or asking for a cigarette, and found your reaction simply impolite, thus started to yell at you. The other guy could have thought you had stolen something from the first guy.
If somebody in the street yells "stop that person", the first thing I think is that there is a pickpocket. Actually once I helped stopping a pickpocket in the train station.
I'd be astonished to discover it was an aggression of any kind, at 17.00 in one of the most crowded places in town!
The moral here is that we shouldn't get paranoid. Geneva is still one of the safest, respectful, relaxed places you can think about. That doesn't mean that you should walk home alone at 3 a.m. wearing extremely sexy stuff and precious jewels on top, but not even that you should start worrying all the time.
Stef__Granny, Jul 4, 2008 @ 13:51
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 43
Jul 4, 2008 @ 14:45
I have been following this thread and was appalled by the treatment of an individual, Cigbar in this case. I was especially concerned because a member of the marathon group was actually harmed during an attempted mugging. The victim was using their PDA at the time and had a very large bag too..... and was distracted.
I love Geneva and I do think it is very safe, compared to so many other places I have been. Usually it is wrong place, wrong time. Yet I have ventured in to Jakarta during a period of unrest - students tossing Molotov cocktails at police and someone blew up the stock exchange, but somehow, somehow I felt safe, as I avoided the areas and wanted to see the city, warts and all!
I think we all have to remain vigilant and exert our "space", keep an eye out somehow. It's not easy - I was fleeced for a credit card (in tight jeans, front pocket!) by three women and a baby (it was the baby!) in Rome, apparently begging. I got toooooo close, too close. Even I hate the person behind getting too close in supermarket and airport queues, so I create space with my leg, put my basket there, or bag, and turn sideways with my leg out - I hate being shoved you see! And it lets me watch them!
The text you are quoting:
I have been following this thread and was appalled by the treatment of an individual, Cigbar in this case. I was especially concerned because a member of the marathon group was actually harmed during an attempted mugging. The victim was using their PDA at the time and had a very large bag too..... and was distracted.
I love Geneva and I do think it is very safe, compared to so many other places I have been. Usually it is wrong place, wrong time. Yet I have ventured in to Jakarta during a period of unrest - students tossing Molotov cocktails at police and someone blew up the stock exchange, but somehow, somehow I felt safe, as I avoided the areas and wanted to see the city, warts and all!
I think we all have to remain vigilant and exert our "space", keep an eye out somehow. It's not easy - I was fleeced for a credit card (in tight jeans, front pocket!) by three women and a baby (it was the baby!) in Rome, apparently begging. I got toooooo close, too close. Even I hate the person behind getting too close in supermarket and airport queues, so I create space with my leg, put my basket there, or bag, and turn sideways with my leg out - I hate being shoved you see! And it lets me watch them!
Randonneur, Jul 4, 2008 @ 14:45
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 44
Jul 4, 2008 @ 17:50
Its amazing the amount of other bad experiences that have come out the experience that Cigbar shared with us.
However I have to agree with Stef Granny! Balance needs to brought to the table. Geneva is a pretty safe place in comparison with other cities around the world but at the same time that doesn’t mean that we stop being vigilant. Everybody should remain streetwise at all times and otherwise sh*t will happen. I experienced it first hand.
For me Geneva is safer than London, (which is where I grew up) as there are many things I do here that I wouldn’t be able to do as comfortably as in London. But ironically it was upon my return from London at the beginning of June that I was pickpocketed at Cornavin during the morning rush hour! This was soo upsetting but I’m over it now since I got my purse back, but it was really because I let my guard down and believed it would’nt happen in Geneva. It has never happened to me in London cos I am always extra careful! So that is a lesson I have learned.
As for the Supermarket situation, that was unfortunate but despite your lack of French or whatever people do understand hand actions and the tone of your voice so if you had told him to back off maybe he woulda gotten the message loud and clear…
I think ultimately we live in 2008 and I cannot think of many cities that are completely free of such incidents. I think that there will always be the triers who are intent on causing some kind of disruption to the kind of lifestyle we may have become used to , but we should all watch our backs and each others… ( but not by standing to close :ermm:)
However I have to agree with Stef Granny! Balance needs to brought to the table. Geneva is a pretty safe place in comparison with other cities around the world but at the same time that doesn’t mean that we stop being vigilant. Everybody should remain streetwise at all times and otherwise sh*t will happen. I experienced it first hand.
For me Geneva is safer than London, (which is where I grew up) as there are many things I do here that I wouldn’t be able to do as comfortably as in London. But ironically it was upon my return from London at the beginning of June that I was pickpocketed at Cornavin during the morning rush hour! This was soo upsetting but I’m over it now since I got my purse back, but it was really because I let my guard down and believed it would’nt happen in Geneva. It has never happened to me in London cos I am always extra careful! So that is a lesson I have learned.
As for the Supermarket situation, that was unfortunate but despite your lack of French or whatever people do understand hand actions and the tone of your voice so if you had told him to back off maybe he woulda gotten the message loud and clear…
I think ultimately we live in 2008 and I cannot think of many cities that are completely free of such incidents. I think that there will always be the triers who are intent on causing some kind of disruption to the kind of lifestyle we may have become used to , but we should all watch our backs and each others… ( but not by standing to close :ermm:)
The text you are quoting:
Its amazing the amount of other bad experiences that have come out the experience that Cigbar shared with us.
However I have to agree with Stef Granny! Balance needs to brought to the table. Geneva is a pretty safe place in comparison with other cities around the world but at the same time that doesn’t mean that we stop being vigilant. Everybody should remain streetwise at all times and otherwise sh*t will happen. I experienced it first hand.
For me Geneva is safer than London, (which is where I grew up) as there are many things I do here that I wouldn’t be able to do as comfortably as in London. But ironically it was upon my return from London at the beginning of June that I was pickpocketed at Cornavin during the morning rush hour! This was soo upsetting but I’m over it now since I got my purse back, but it was really because I let my guard down and believed it would’nt happen in Geneva. It has never happened to me in London cos I am always extra careful! So that is a lesson I have learned.
As for the Supermarket situation, that was unfortunate but despite your lack of French or whatever people do understand hand actions and the tone of your voice so if you had told him to back off maybe he woulda gotten the message loud and clear…
I think ultimately we live in 2008 and I cannot think of many cities that are completely free of such incidents. I think that there will always be the triers who are intent on causing some kind of disruption to the kind of lifestyle we may have become used to , but we should all watch our backs and each others… ( but not by standing to close :ermm:)
babylicious, Jul 4, 2008 @ 17:50
However I have to agree with Stef Granny! Balance needs to brought to the table. Geneva is a pretty safe place in comparison with other cities around the world but at the same time that doesn’t mean that we stop being vigilant. Everybody should remain streetwise at all times and otherwise sh*t will happen. I experienced it first hand.
For me Geneva is safer than London, (which is where I grew up) as there are many things I do here that I wouldn’t be able to do as comfortably as in London. But ironically it was upon my return from London at the beginning of June that I was pickpocketed at Cornavin during the morning rush hour! This was soo upsetting but I’m over it now since I got my purse back, but it was really because I let my guard down and believed it would’nt happen in Geneva. It has never happened to me in London cos I am always extra careful! So that is a lesson I have learned.
As for the Supermarket situation, that was unfortunate but despite your lack of French or whatever people do understand hand actions and the tone of your voice so if you had told him to back off maybe he woulda gotten the message loud and clear…
I think ultimately we live in 2008 and I cannot think of many cities that are completely free of such incidents. I think that there will always be the triers who are intent on causing some kind of disruption to the kind of lifestyle we may have become used to , but we should all watch our backs and each others… ( but not by standing to close :ermm:)
babylicious, Jul 4, 2008 @ 17:50
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 45
Jul 4, 2008 @ 19:18
Reading this with great interest.
So far, I’ve found it safe here, though its true I am living on the periphery and dont get into town as often these days either.. (..not as much as I should do in fact.. probably I should make more of an effort in fact.. hmm..)
I am thinking.. maybe it would be good for glocals to see if they could run self-defence courses.. for girls/women.
I did one 2 years ago, there’s an excellent course run up here in Meyrin, especially for women, by an ex-police officer with ‘xxx’ expertise in Martial arts , his assistant is a woman who was assaulted in the past, and decided to do something about it, she’s really nice and down to earth and quite a force to be reckoned with now... There were girls coming from canton of Vaud and from Annemasse to Meyrin for the courses which shows the excellent reputation.
There were girls taking part that had been attacked or assaulted in all ways (one had been held hostage by her partner at gunpoint) as well as others like me who just wanted to learn to be aware and have an idea of how to react if necessary. The self defense taught is loosely based on martial arts mixed with ‘street wisdom' on what might happen in the street, parking lot etc. from crazy people..
I found it excellent, ever so interesting, you are taught to react in a way the aggressor would not logically expect. At the end of each 3 month course there is a ‘dummy run’ where you are put in situations where you are ‘attacked’ in order to put into practice what you have learned. Sometimes the knowledge comes quickly, others you feel like you want to do the course a bit longer.. and I'd actually even do it again myself I think.. I had to stop during the second one for health reasons, unfortunately, but in any case I feel that you are left with knowledge and reactions that are invaluable there that you didnt have before.
The course was very ‘hands on’ and given in French in Meyrin for women only..(though he does them once a week also for elderly too I think..).. but who knows, ( ..and I'm just talking into air here on this bit..) if enough people were interested from glocals, maybe he could do one that could be translated simultaneously..? The guy would have to be asked if he was available of course..
Otherwise there are of course the various martial arts courses (mixed and otherwise) run in the evenings all over the county, which could be useful to do.. which would also teach assurance and confidence whilst walking around town etc.. and could also be interesting for who you meet, also socially, maybe even..
Dear me this is a bit long.. hope it makes sense..
So far, I’ve found it safe here, though its true I am living on the periphery and dont get into town as often these days either.. (..not as much as I should do in fact.. probably I should make more of an effort in fact.. hmm..)
I am thinking.. maybe it would be good for glocals to see if they could run self-defence courses.. for girls/women.
I did one 2 years ago, there’s an excellent course run up here in Meyrin, especially for women, by an ex-police officer with ‘xxx’ expertise in Martial arts , his assistant is a woman who was assaulted in the past, and decided to do something about it, she’s really nice and down to earth and quite a force to be reckoned with now... There were girls coming from canton of Vaud and from Annemasse to Meyrin for the courses which shows the excellent reputation.
There were girls taking part that had been attacked or assaulted in all ways (one had been held hostage by her partner at gunpoint) as well as others like me who just wanted to learn to be aware and have an idea of how to react if necessary. The self defense taught is loosely based on martial arts mixed with ‘street wisdom' on what might happen in the street, parking lot etc. from crazy people..
I found it excellent, ever so interesting, you are taught to react in a way the aggressor would not logically expect. At the end of each 3 month course there is a ‘dummy run’ where you are put in situations where you are ‘attacked’ in order to put into practice what you have learned. Sometimes the knowledge comes quickly, others you feel like you want to do the course a bit longer.. and I'd actually even do it again myself I think.. I had to stop during the second one for health reasons, unfortunately, but in any case I feel that you are left with knowledge and reactions that are invaluable there that you didnt have before.
The course was very ‘hands on’ and given in French in Meyrin for women only..(though he does them once a week also for elderly too I think..).. but who knows, ( ..and I'm just talking into air here on this bit..) if enough people were interested from glocals, maybe he could do one that could be translated simultaneously..? The guy would have to be asked if he was available of course..
Otherwise there are of course the various martial arts courses (mixed and otherwise) run in the evenings all over the county, which could be useful to do.. which would also teach assurance and confidence whilst walking around town etc.. and could also be interesting for who you meet, also socially, maybe even..
Dear me this is a bit long.. hope it makes sense..
The text you are quoting:
Reading this with great interest.
So far, I’ve found it safe here, though its true I am living on the periphery and dont get into town as often these days either.. (..not as much as I should do in fact.. probably I should make more of an effort in fact.. hmm..)
I am thinking.. maybe it would be good for glocals to see if they could run self-defence courses.. for girls/women.
I did one 2 years ago, there’s an excellent course run up here in Meyrin, especially for women, by an ex-police officer with ‘xxx’ expertise in Martial arts , his assistant is a woman who was assaulted in the past, and decided to do something about it, she’s really nice and down to earth and quite a force to be reckoned with now... There were girls coming from canton of Vaud and from Annemasse to Meyrin for the courses which shows the excellent reputation.
There were girls taking part that had been attacked or assaulted in all ways (one had been held hostage by her partner at gunpoint) as well as others like me who just wanted to learn to be aware and have an idea of how to react if necessary. The self defense taught is loosely based on martial arts mixed with ‘street wisdom' on what might happen in the street, parking lot etc. from crazy people..
I found it excellent, ever so interesting, you are taught to react in a way the aggressor would not logically expect. At the end of each 3 month course there is a ‘dummy run’ where you are put in situations where you are ‘attacked’ in order to put into practice what you have learned. Sometimes the knowledge comes quickly, others you feel like you want to do the course a bit longer.. and I'd actually even do it again myself I think.. I had to stop during the second one for health reasons, unfortunately, but in any case I feel that you are left with knowledge and reactions that are invaluable there that you didnt have before.
The course was very ‘hands on’ and given in French in Meyrin for women only..(though he does them once a week also for elderly too I think..).. but who knows, ( ..and I'm just talking into air here on this bit..) if enough people were interested from glocals, maybe he could do one that could be translated simultaneously..? The guy would have to be asked if he was available of course..
Otherwise there are of course the various martial arts courses (mixed and otherwise) run in the evenings all over the county, which could be useful to do.. which would also teach assurance and confidence whilst walking around town etc.. and could also be interesting for who you meet, also socially, maybe even..
Dear me this is a bit long.. hope it makes sense..
TogJay, Jul 4, 2008 @ 19:18
So far, I’ve found it safe here, though its true I am living on the periphery and dont get into town as often these days either.. (..not as much as I should do in fact.. probably I should make more of an effort in fact.. hmm..)
I am thinking.. maybe it would be good for glocals to see if they could run self-defence courses.. for girls/women.
I did one 2 years ago, there’s an excellent course run up here in Meyrin, especially for women, by an ex-police officer with ‘xxx’ expertise in Martial arts , his assistant is a woman who was assaulted in the past, and decided to do something about it, she’s really nice and down to earth and quite a force to be reckoned with now... There were girls coming from canton of Vaud and from Annemasse to Meyrin for the courses which shows the excellent reputation.
There were girls taking part that had been attacked or assaulted in all ways (one had been held hostage by her partner at gunpoint) as well as others like me who just wanted to learn to be aware and have an idea of how to react if necessary. The self defense taught is loosely based on martial arts mixed with ‘street wisdom' on what might happen in the street, parking lot etc. from crazy people..
I found it excellent, ever so interesting, you are taught to react in a way the aggressor would not logically expect. At the end of each 3 month course there is a ‘dummy run’ where you are put in situations where you are ‘attacked’ in order to put into practice what you have learned. Sometimes the knowledge comes quickly, others you feel like you want to do the course a bit longer.. and I'd actually even do it again myself I think.. I had to stop during the second one for health reasons, unfortunately, but in any case I feel that you are left with knowledge and reactions that are invaluable there that you didnt have before.
The course was very ‘hands on’ and given in French in Meyrin for women only..(though he does them once a week also for elderly too I think..).. but who knows, ( ..and I'm just talking into air here on this bit..) if enough people were interested from glocals, maybe he could do one that could be translated simultaneously..? The guy would have to be asked if he was available of course..
Otherwise there are of course the various martial arts courses (mixed and otherwise) run in the evenings all over the county, which could be useful to do.. which would also teach assurance and confidence whilst walking around town etc.. and could also be interesting for who you meet, also socially, maybe even..
Dear me this is a bit long.. hope it makes sense..
TogJay, Jul 4, 2008 @ 19:18
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 46
Jul 4, 2008 @ 19:22
The words Vigilant and Paranoid are being bashed around here quite a lot (in fact an earlier thread accused me of being paranoid, but I didn't bite because his advice was about as much use as a chocolate teaspoon, so I let everyone else rip him apart.)
Anyway - the word "Vigilant" is a good one... it's great (although unfortunate) to hear some of the stories emerging from this, it brings about a real picture of what 'actually happens' that we don't see or hear about in and around Geneva. All bad stuff we never hear on the 'Swiss Local News' or read about in local papers.
Regardless... we know it goes on, yes there are worse places, I've lived in them too, so best we just stay Vigilant! (and not paranoid!) Remember folks: Good vigilance in itself is a deterant!
Anyway Kiwigirl... I'm looking forward to that 'girls only' cocktail party, my name is Susan...! But I may come in drag dressed as a handsome man! :D
The text you are quoting:
The words Vigilant and Paranoid are being bashed around here quite a lot (in fact an earlier thread accused me of being paranoid, but I didn't bite because his advice was about as much use as a chocolate teaspoon, so I let everyone else rip him apart.)
Anyway - the word "Vigilant" is a good one... it's great (although unfortunate) to hear some of the stories emerging from this, it brings about a real picture of what 'actually happens' that we don't see or hear about in and around Geneva. All bad stuff we never hear on the 'Swiss Local News' or read about in local papers.
Regardless... we know it goes on, yes there are worse places, I've lived in them too, so best we just stay Vigilant! (and not paranoid!) Remember folks: Good vigilance in itself is a deterant!
Anyway Kiwigirl... I'm looking forward to that 'girls only' cocktail party, my name is Susan...! But I may come in drag dressed as a handsome man! :D
Deano1uk, Jul 4, 2008 @ 19:22
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 47
Jul 6, 2008 @ 11:35
[quote]# If you see a disturbance in the street, don't approach to get a better view, but avoid the scene completely.
# If anyone sollicits your attention, be it for something as "innocent" as a cigarette, TOTALLY ignore them [...][/quote]
In other words, be as antisocial as possible? Come on. When it's 3am and you're alone behind the train station perhaps. But otherwise this mindset is exactly what leads to matters becoming worse on the streets (if they actually are, what I doubt). When no one cares for anything, it's easier for crooks to do their thing. Normal people like to be able to ask someone for the time, or for someone to care when they have a problem. To stay with the theme, be vigilant, but still be a human being.
# If anyone sollicits your attention, be it for something as "innocent" as a cigarette, TOTALLY ignore them [...][/quote]
In other words, be as antisocial as possible? Come on. When it's 3am and you're alone behind the train station perhaps. But otherwise this mindset is exactly what leads to matters becoming worse on the streets (if they actually are, what I doubt). When no one cares for anything, it's easier for crooks to do their thing. Normal people like to be able to ask someone for the time, or for someone to care when they have a problem. To stay with the theme, be vigilant, but still be a human being.
The text you are quoting:
[quote]# If you see a disturbance in the street, don't approach to get a better view, but avoid the scene completely.
# If anyone sollicits your attention, be it for something as "innocent" as a cigarette, TOTALLY ignore them [...][/quote]
In other words, be as antisocial as possible? Come on. When it's 3am and you're alone behind the train station perhaps. But otherwise this mindset is exactly what leads to matters becoming worse on the streets (if they actually are, what I doubt). When no one cares for anything, it's easier for crooks to do their thing. Normal people like to be able to ask someone for the time, or for someone to care when they have a problem. To stay with the theme, be vigilant, but still be a human being.
thomas11, Jul 6, 2008 @ 11:35
# If anyone sollicits your attention, be it for something as "innocent" as a cigarette, TOTALLY ignore them [...][/quote]
In other words, be as antisocial as possible? Come on. When it's 3am and you're alone behind the train station perhaps. But otherwise this mindset is exactly what leads to matters becoming worse on the streets (if they actually are, what I doubt). When no one cares for anything, it's easier for crooks to do their thing. Normal people like to be able to ask someone for the time, or for someone to care when they have a problem. To stay with the theme, be vigilant, but still be a human being.
thomas11, Jul 6, 2008 @ 11:35
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 48
Jul 7, 2008 @ 13:34
I have been following this thread with fascination. Yes we all agree that compared to most, Geneva is a safe, calm and well-run city. But clearly a lot of expats have had or know of some nasty experiences. Maybe as a group we are more vulnerable than the locals, given, amongst other things, imperfect french. I haven't had a bad experience myself, other than a few road-rage incidents, but witnessed one of the worst assaults I've ever seen, in broad daylight in Petit-Saconnex about two years ago, when I saw two men jump out of a car to attack a cyclist and very seriously injure him. I also knew of someone who was stabbed to death in Plainpalais a few years ago. There seems a be a strong sense that many of these incidents are not reported or are under-reported (the assault I saw wasn't reported) and that the police are at times unresponsive.
This has caused me to ponder again on a vague idea I've had for some time - that those of us who pay taxes here, yet are unable to vote in local elections because we're foreign, should nonetheless have some kind of political representation. We pay a hell of a lot of tax and contribute considerable revenue to this city, which the Geneva authorities rely upon. If there was some kind of "Association of Geneva Taxpayers" or something we could act collectively to lobby local authorities on issues that concern us. Any views? I've got a pretty demanding job and don't really have time to organise such a group, but is it an idea that people might be interested in?
The text you are quoting:
I have been following this thread with fascination. Yes we all agree that compared to most, Geneva is a safe, calm and well-run city. But clearly a lot of expats have had or know of some nasty experiences. Maybe as a group we are more vulnerable than the locals, given, amongst other things, imperfect french. I haven't had a bad experience myself, other than a few road-rage incidents, but witnessed one of the worst assaults I've ever seen, in broad daylight in Petit-Saconnex about two years ago, when I saw two men jump out of a car to attack a cyclist and very seriously injure him. I also knew of someone who was stabbed to death in Plainpalais a few years ago. There seems a be a strong sense that many of these incidents are not reported or are under-reported (the assault I saw wasn't reported) and that the police are at times unresponsive.
This has caused me to ponder again on a vague idea I've had for some time - that those of us who pay taxes here, yet are unable to vote in local elections because we're foreign, should nonetheless have some kind of political representation. We pay a hell of a lot of tax and contribute considerable revenue to this city, which the Geneva authorities rely upon. If there was some kind of "Association of Geneva Taxpayers" or something we could act collectively to lobby local authorities on issues that concern us. Any views? I've got a pretty demanding job and don't really have time to organise such a group, but is it an idea that people might be interested in?
Bella98, Jul 7, 2008 @ 13:34
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 49
Jul 7, 2008 @ 14:02
Cigbar,
I hope these experiences seem far in the past now. But I would like to back you up on the lakeside promenade issue. I'm female and live right by the Mont-Blanc bridge. I regularly walk my dog on the stretch of rive droite between the bridge and Bains des Paquis. Creepy guys come up to me all the time and try to talk to me. They are just these dudes lurking at any time of day, particularly in the area in front of the Kempinski hotel and Hotel D'Angleterre. Sometimes they offer to buy me coffee and and sometimes they ask if they can walk the dog with me. I'm not particularly attractive or young and what's more, I have a wedding ring on. I'm noticeably pregnant but this doesn't seem to allay the come-ons. No one has been really scary so I still walk there all the time. But there are a lot more creepy lurking dudes in Geneva than I'm used to from living in NYC. The Square de Mont-Blanc which is behind the Hotel Bristol and Hotel de la Paix is also full of shady individuals at all hours.
I hope these experiences seem far in the past now. But I would like to back you up on the lakeside promenade issue. I'm female and live right by the Mont-Blanc bridge. I regularly walk my dog on the stretch of rive droite between the bridge and Bains des Paquis. Creepy guys come up to me all the time and try to talk to me. They are just these dudes lurking at any time of day, particularly in the area in front of the Kempinski hotel and Hotel D'Angleterre. Sometimes they offer to buy me coffee and and sometimes they ask if they can walk the dog with me. I'm not particularly attractive or young and what's more, I have a wedding ring on. I'm noticeably pregnant but this doesn't seem to allay the come-ons. No one has been really scary so I still walk there all the time. But there are a lot more creepy lurking dudes in Geneva than I'm used to from living in NYC. The Square de Mont-Blanc which is behind the Hotel Bristol and Hotel de la Paix is also full of shady individuals at all hours.
The text you are quoting:
Cigbar,
I hope these experiences seem far in the past now. But I would like to back you up on the lakeside promenade issue. I'm female and live right by the Mont-Blanc bridge. I regularly walk my dog on the stretch of rive droite between the bridge and Bains des Paquis. Creepy guys come up to me all the time and try to talk to me. They are just these dudes lurking at any time of day, particularly in the area in front of the Kempinski hotel and Hotel D'Angleterre. Sometimes they offer to buy me coffee and and sometimes they ask if they can walk the dog with me. I'm not particularly attractive or young and what's more, I have a wedding ring on. I'm noticeably pregnant but this doesn't seem to allay the come-ons. No one has been really scary so I still walk there all the time. But there are a lot more creepy lurking dudes in Geneva than I'm used to from living in NYC. The Square de Mont-Blanc which is behind the Hotel Bristol and Hotel de la Paix is also full of shady individuals at all hours.
sansblague, Jul 7, 2008 @ 14:02
I hope these experiences seem far in the past now. But I would like to back you up on the lakeside promenade issue. I'm female and live right by the Mont-Blanc bridge. I regularly walk my dog on the stretch of rive droite between the bridge and Bains des Paquis. Creepy guys come up to me all the time and try to talk to me. They are just these dudes lurking at any time of day, particularly in the area in front of the Kempinski hotel and Hotel D'Angleterre. Sometimes they offer to buy me coffee and and sometimes they ask if they can walk the dog with me. I'm not particularly attractive or young and what's more, I have a wedding ring on. I'm noticeably pregnant but this doesn't seem to allay the come-ons. No one has been really scary so I still walk there all the time. But there are a lot more creepy lurking dudes in Geneva than I'm used to from living in NYC. The Square de Mont-Blanc which is behind the Hotel Bristol and Hotel de la Paix is also full of shady individuals at all hours.
sansblague, Jul 7, 2008 @ 14:02
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 50
Jul 7, 2008 @ 14:34
[quote][b]Bella98 (07/07/2008)[/b][hr]If there was some kind of "Association of Geneva Taxpayers" or something we could act collectively to lobby local authorities on issues that concern us. Any views? I've got a pretty demanding job and don't really have time to organise such a group, but is it an idea that people might be interested in? [/quote]
Bella:
It's a great idea, and such a group could lobby a lot of things for Expats. ur
But I think you touched the issue tho: most of us (especially the folks on glocals.com) have demanding full time jobs, and the task of setting up such a lobby group is way beyond something we can do with 1 hour on the weekend...(-;
I know there are other lobby groups who lobby on behalf of the multinationals, but these groups are focused on business needs more than on anything else. So for now, unless someone comes forward, I think it will be a challenge to put such a group together.
The text you are quoting:
[quote][b]Bella98 (07/07/2008)[/b][hr]If there was some kind of "Association of Geneva Taxpayers" or something we could act collectively to lobby local authorities on issues that concern us. Any views? I've got a pretty demanding job and don't really have time to organise such a group, but is it an idea that people might be interested in? [/quote]
Bella:
It's a great idea, and such a group could lobby a lot of things for Expats. ur
But I think you touched the issue tho: most of us (especially the folks on glocals.com) have demanding full time jobs, and the task of setting up such a lobby group is way beyond something we can do with 1 hour on the weekend...(-;
I know there are other lobby groups who lobby on behalf of the multinationals, but these groups are focused on business needs more than on anything else. So for now, unless someone comes forward, I think it will be a challenge to put such a group together.
Nir Ofek, Jul 7, 2008 @ 14:34
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 51
Jul 7, 2008 @ 15:33
Bella, Nir:
there are some 450'000 inhabitants in Geneva, of which 175'000 are foreigners (that's roughly 40%), to whom we could add, during the day, 60'000 trans border commuters. That's a lot of serious stakeholders for few voters (~50%)!
You can find all details about these figures on the site of the cantonal statistics office
there are some 450'000 inhabitants in Geneva, of which 175'000 are foreigners (that's roughly 40%), to whom we could add, during the day, 60'000 trans border commuters. That's a lot of serious stakeholders for few voters (~50%)!
You can find all details about these figures on the site of the cantonal statistics office
The text you are quoting:
Bella, Nir:
there are some 450'000 inhabitants in Geneva, of which 175'000 are foreigners (that's roughly 40%), to whom we could add, during the day, 60'000 trans border commuters. That's a lot of serious stakeholders for few voters (~50%)!
You can find all details about these figures on the site of the cantonal statistics office
Free, Jul 7, 2008 @ 15:33
there are some 450'000 inhabitants in Geneva, of which 175'000 are foreigners (that's roughly 40%), to whom we could add, during the day, 60'000 trans border commuters. That's a lot of serious stakeholders for few voters (~50%)!
You can find all details about these figures on the site of the cantonal statistics office
Free, Jul 7, 2008 @ 15:33
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 52
Jul 7, 2008 @ 17:31
I live outside of Geneva and generally I don't travel around the city much so when I do I'd like to know where I should be particularly cautious. For that I have a practical suggestion. We could collate the information on areas when and where you should be extra vigilant and put it in the City Guide. I'll volunteer to do a map if I can get reasonable information.
The text you are quoting:
I live outside of Geneva and generally I don't travel around the city much so when I do I'd like to know where I should be particularly cautious. For that I have a practical suggestion. We could collate the information on areas when and where you should be extra vigilant and put it in the City Guide. I'll volunteer to do a map if I can get reasonable information.
Maplady, Jul 7, 2008 @ 17:31
Maplady, Jul 7, 2008 @ 17:31
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 53
Jul 7, 2008 @ 17:55
[quote][b]Maplady (07/07/2008)[/b][hr]We could collate the information on areas when and where you should be extra vigilant and put it in the City Guide. I'll volunteer to do a map if I can get reasonable information.[/quote]
Maplady:
I think that's a great idea, and if done well - could be very useful. Thanks for bringing it up!
Should we communicate the feedback to you via text, or are you some IT wiz that's able to create some interactive wikki style map where we could post our comments directly?
The text you are quoting:
[quote][b]Maplady (07/07/2008)[/b][hr]We could collate the information on areas when and where you should be extra vigilant and put it in the City Guide. I'll volunteer to do a map if I can get reasonable information.[/quote]
Maplady:
I think that's a great idea, and if done well - could be very useful. Thanks for bringing it up!
Should we communicate the feedback to you via text, or are you some IT wiz that's able to create some interactive wikki style map where we could post our comments directly?
Nir Ofek, Jul 7, 2008 @ 17:55
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 54
Jul 27, 2008 @ 21:51
JT: thanks mate.
Maplady: you still up for it?
Nir
The text you are quoting:
JT: thanks mate.
Maplady: you still up for it?
Nir
Nir Ofek, Jul 27, 2008 @ 21:51
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 55
Jul 29, 2008 @ 00:52
Mimi_crobe (27/07/2008)
I was never ever robbed or assaulted or even pickpocketed in this city (elsewhere, yes) and I keep fingers crossed I will never be.
In my experience, the safest place ever is Japan.
As to an expats' lobby complaing that expats just pay taxes, but cannot vote... c'mon :) this is funny. Wouldn't that be the case for me too if I went working abroad? I expect to pay taxes but not to be able to vote, being a foreigner. Taxes are not about votes, they are about using the country's infrastructure, first and foremost. Including the police.
[/quote]
I agree with you Mimi_crobe that Japan is perhaps the safest place anywhere.
It is wonderful that you have never experienced crime in Geneva. My experience is not so fortunate. Other posts in this thread second this sad fact... Geneva has petty and not-so-petty crime (as is the case with many other cities).
My unfortunate experience was at a glocals event last year. My iPhone was pickpocketed while I was listening to a fellow glocaler tell me how she wants to be an entrepreneur and start her own business after graduating from EPFL. I was all in help-a-stranger mind set. And then I became a victim... almost, here's how: Two strangers come close to us asking for cigarettes and light. She, her boyfriend and I said we don't smoke. Still one of the strangers stood next to me. Started jumping and dancing, occasionally his and my shoulders touching. The guy kept dancing for 20-30 seconds. The stranger then walked away. My instinct... this is strange, something is wrong. I check. I still have my wallet. Ooops! my mobile phone is gone. I could still see the two guys walking into the darkness. I gave my wine glass to the future-entrepreneur, and run after the two bozos. Caught up. Looked in the eyes of the thief and asked him to give the phone back. He immediately returned the phone. I returned back to fellow glocalers. I felt upset. My mood was bad. Rest of the evening, I barely talked to anyone.
(Many have told me since... my instinct to confront may not have been the wise thing to do).
I tell you the above story for a reason. I feel that, just as I was upset that evening, most folks get upset when they are taken advantage of, or robbed or victimized, or subjected to abuse of any kind. May be, I would have been more helpful to that future entrepreneur if I could have focussed on what she was saying after that pickpocketing event. The unfortunate fact is that I was a bit upset to pay serious attention to her.
I feel we should listen and understand and help the victim(s), because we all deserve to live without fear, or abuse, or hate, or negativity. And, we deserve to share our lifetimes with friends and folks who live without fear, or abuse, or hate, or negativity.
Crime or abuse or hate never affects one person alone. It affects you, me and all of us... directly or indirectly. It causes normal people to withdraw, become less friendly and become less of a human being. We are all better off if we live and dance and celebrate life with folks who are not hurting or withdrawn. Crime or abuse or hate makes that difficult.
For those reasons, we should encourage folks to speak out. We should hear them, and have their voices heard by those with political power and responsibility. It does not matter if they can vote or not. Every human voice is important, must be encouraged, must be respected, must be respectfully considered.
That is why I like this idea of expat community voice... I may have skipped something, but I am not convinced that anyone in this thread is asking for a right to vote. Expats in Geneva, or expats anywhere else may not have a right to vote, but as human beings they do have certain natural rights, amongst which is the right to life and certain liberties. Lets encourage expat community, and every human being for that matter, the freedom to express their concerns.
I applaud any ideas and initiatives that would enable expats to speak out and share their concerns.
The text you are quoting:
Mimi_crobe (27/07/2008)
I was never ever robbed or assaulted or even pickpocketed in this city (elsewhere, yes) and I keep fingers crossed I will never be.
In my experience, the safest place ever is Japan.
As to an expats' lobby complaing that expats just pay taxes, but cannot vote... c'mon :) this is funny. Wouldn't that be the case for me too if I went working abroad? I expect to pay taxes but not to be able to vote, being a foreigner. Taxes are not about votes, they are about using the country's infrastructure, first and foremost. Including the police.
[/quote]
I agree with you Mimi_crobe that Japan is perhaps the safest place anywhere.
It is wonderful that you have never experienced crime in Geneva. My experience is not so fortunate. Other posts in this thread second this sad fact... Geneva has petty and not-so-petty crime (as is the case with many other cities).
My unfortunate experience was at a glocals event last year. My iPhone was pickpocketed while I was listening to a fellow glocaler tell me how she wants to be an entrepreneur and start her own business after graduating from EPFL. I was all in help-a-stranger mind set. And then I became a victim... almost, here's how: Two strangers come close to us asking for cigarettes and light. She, her boyfriend and I said we don't smoke. Still one of the strangers stood next to me. Started jumping and dancing, occasionally his and my shoulders touching. The guy kept dancing for 20-30 seconds. The stranger then walked away. My instinct... this is strange, something is wrong. I check. I still have my wallet. Ooops! my mobile phone is gone. I could still see the two guys walking into the darkness. I gave my wine glass to the future-entrepreneur, and run after the two bozos. Caught up. Looked in the eyes of the thief and asked him to give the phone back. He immediately returned the phone. I returned back to fellow glocalers. I felt upset. My mood was bad. Rest of the evening, I barely talked to anyone.
(Many have told me since... my instinct to confront may not have been the wise thing to do).
I tell you the above story for a reason. I feel that, just as I was upset that evening, most folks get upset when they are taken advantage of, or robbed or victimized, or subjected to abuse of any kind. May be, I would have been more helpful to that future entrepreneur if I could have focussed on what she was saying after that pickpocketing event. The unfortunate fact is that I was a bit upset to pay serious attention to her.
I feel we should listen and understand and help the victim(s), because we all deserve to live without fear, or abuse, or hate, or negativity. And, we deserve to share our lifetimes with friends and folks who live without fear, or abuse, or hate, or negativity.
Crime or abuse or hate never affects one person alone. It affects you, me and all of us... directly or indirectly. It causes normal people to withdraw, become less friendly and become less of a human being. We are all better off if we live and dance and celebrate life with folks who are not hurting or withdrawn. Crime or abuse or hate makes that difficult.
For those reasons, we should encourage folks to speak out. We should hear them, and have their voices heard by those with political power and responsibility. It does not matter if they can vote or not. Every human voice is important, must be encouraged, must be respected, must be respectfully considered.
That is why I like this idea of expat community voice... I may have skipped something, but I am not convinced that anyone in this thread is asking for a right to vote. Expats in Geneva, or expats anywhere else may not have a right to vote, but as human beings they do have certain natural rights, amongst which is the right to life and certain liberties. Lets encourage expat community, and every human being for that matter, the freedom to express their concerns.
I applaud any ideas and initiatives that would enable expats to speak out and share their concerns.
colorado, Jul 29, 2008 @ 00:52
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 56
Oct 8, 2008 @ 15:38
I can tell you the cost and time involved in replacing the items you mentioned is immense we are still replacing items after my wife's bag was stolen at the end of August. We still have the driving licence to replace. received the last of the replacement credit cards yesterday and as for the insurance claim still under processing , and we'll be unlikely to have the full value! If someone would have been a good Samaritan while we were on holiday we would have certainly had more than just a thank you to give to them.. Perhaps until you've had to go through the process , you may not be aware how difficult it is. Try obtaining a Temp Passport to fly home without any identity!!!
The text you are quoting:
I can tell you the cost and time involved in replacing the items you mentioned is immense we are still replacing items after my wife's bag was stolen at the end of August. We still have the driving licence to replace. received the last of the replacement credit cards yesterday and as for the insurance claim still under processing , and we'll be unlikely to have the full value! If someone would have been a good Samaritan while we were on holiday we would have certainly had more than just a thank you to give to them.. Perhaps until you've had to go through the process , you may not be aware how difficult it is. Try obtaining a Temp Passport to fly home without any identity!!!
britabroad, Oct 8, 2008 @ 15:38
britabroad, Oct 8, 2008 @ 15:38
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Re: A Warning to Women..and maybe men
Post 57
Oct 8, 2008 @ 16:41
