It's called availability bias. There is no reason for you to remember all the times you went by train and nothing happened, but you remember the times you witnessed antisocial behavior clearly. So you believe it's more common than it really is.

I don't mean this in an unfriendly way; I am also occasionally bothered by people being noisy or rude.But you hae to put things in perspective.

I don't think it's a Swiss thing, since I have witnessed the same things in countries I spent time in the past (Holland and Russia). I'm also not sure if it's more common than it used to be; I know that whey I was 18-20 years old my friends and I used to travel by train to Amsterdam to go out, and I'm pretty sure we didn't make a good impression on fellow travellers. As far as I know my dad also behaved quite badly when he was a teenager. 

We have to look introspectively into ourselves and question how where we at their age ...?

But ...

And never the less ...

It seems the world is getting worse, perhaps to do with recession, glooomy outlook, end of great dreams, etc ... etc ...  The cow has been milked and the cow is now dry ...  

I sadly think it's becoming very common for people that age to act like that when they are in a group.

I am also sad to see the increasing incidences of such behaviour. I was walking along side the lake and then went to use the WC there. I saw a man selling drugs and another smoking it there. Then I went to the Paki area to buy vegetables and saw a man urinating on the tyre of a car.

I felt it quite disgusting.

At least I was not doing such things when I was of that age.

I'm afraid I once got thrown out of a bus when I was a student....

After watching the football matches of the Euro at Acacias Big Screen, it was impossible to get the tram. Crowds of kids where literally destroying them on their way home...

I've seen dramatic changes in Geneva and I just got here in 2010...

I think you have a point there - we do notice more powerful events over more mundane ones.  That said, just because it has happened twice out of possibly tens of journeys doesn't mean that it's not a problem, it's acceptable or happens with the same frequency elswhere. I was back in the UK a few months ago and two passengers were having a very vocal dispute on an underground platform.  Within one minute three transport police came down to the platform and intervened.  What I found shocking on the train here was that four security guards armed with pepper spray, handcuffs and extendable batons, were too scared to at least go and request that the guys not smoke, not stand on the seats, not throw beer around and not shout.

I looked at some of the other posts and about people selling drugs etc and I think part of the problem here is that the police have power but actually very little authority.  In Lausanne I see people openly selling drugs on the streets, Riponne is like wino/crackhead central and yet it appears that the police are more interested in handing out parking fines than doing something about real 'quality of life' issues.  A female friend is a musician and plays in Lausanne in the evenings.  She tells me she dreads walking through the streets at night and is regularly intimidated by groups of young men - walking beside her and making suggestive/lewd comments.

I was in a suburb of Sydney last week and was really struck by public notices from the local council spelling out what constittutes anti social behaviour and the zero tolernace policy of the police and council officers.  I came back and got off the tain at Morges.  The platform was covered in chewing gum, cigarette buts and spit and the next night I see the behaviour I mentioned in my first post. 

I am in full agreement. The police largely seems to be ineffective and that is why most of the crimes happen in a very small area and still the culprits are untraceable.

The public behaviour is not improving either. Go to any crowded place and feel suffocated due to heavy smoking at all public places.

I was recently in Japan and found that much ahead in terms of public behaviour. No one is allowed to smoke on most of the streets. All smokers carry their pocket ashtray and put their butts in that after smoking in designated areas, No one uses mobile phones in public transports.

the fundamental problem is lack of proper parenting. 

I might sound weired in European context, but that is exactly the rootcause of the problem. Now-a-days, children are not scolded, even if necessary.

I am an Indian and when I was growing-up, even a neighbour had a right to scold me, if saw doing something inappropriate. My parents would never object to that. That is why we were careful all the time.

Yup - been to Japan a few times (Tokyo and Yokohama) and I see exactly what you're saying.  people respecting basic social etiquette and each other. It's one thing (and probably understandable) that young people do dumb, anti social stuff in public but what is troubling is that people who are paid to protect the wider community are too scared or incompetant to do so. Maybe the neutrality thing percolates right down to law enforcement and security workers.

Weird thing is I've lived in five different countries and nowhere in my experience has more rules and strictures than Switzerland about petty things and yet seems to tolerate so much stuff that would be so easy to do something about.  Between me and my ex-pat and Swiss friends is a wealth of incidents where the police were called and just seemed clownish in their responses.

Max, thanks for starting this thread. I would agree with you that police do tend to turn a blind eye towards bad behaviour on trains, trams etc but have no qualms about reading the riot act to someone who looks like they might possibly be thinking about considering the possibility of double-parking.

As for the question, 'are young people behaving worse today than when we were their age?' I completely agree with Sudhanshu's points about poor parenting being a huge influence on children and how they act. Howver, if we're wondering if this is a new situation, here are two quotes to consider...

"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on the frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words. When I was a boy, we were taught to be discrete and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise and impatient of restraint.”

Hesiod (Greek poet circa 800 B.C.)

"The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have
no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all
restraint. They talk as if they alone knew everything and what passes
for wisdom with us is foolishness with them. As for girls, they are
forward, immodest and unwomanly in speech, behaviour and dress"

Peter the Hermit (English monk circa 1270 A.D.)

In full agreement with the post from Rich. Who to blame for that? When I was growing-up, the institutions for socialization were limited, so we were primarily influenced by the family, school and the neighbourhood. Now all those things have become secondary and there are so many factors to influence, and mostly negatibvely.

The state has started interfering in the family affairs and determines how parents should behave with children.

Lastly, it is the monetization of everything which has made us unhealthy. Now, we can do nothing wiothout money. Therefore, the children also learn to love and respect money more than their relations.

Wholeheartedly agree ..... also a virtually complete lack of discipline anywhere which only increases lack of self-discipline compounds the all too frequent events mentioned. Sad.

Hmmm a lot of interesting debate...

Have you ever heard the expression, 'you can lead a horse to the water but you cannot make him drink it', well humans are the same.  It does not solely depend on good parenting, a human being is a complex chaotic system that cannot be coerced into perfection and stability, and people can only try their best.

However, perhaps people should have to pass certain psychological criteria’s before they embark into procreation and end up producing a little bunch of antisocial runts! 

Haha…lol

Anyway this is the dawn and age of the ‘enfants roi’ and I have seen bad and good come out of it.  I do not think there is any absolute, or a better system but some people seem to have the knack of having well behaved kids and others produce unruly little criminals.

Life is one big lottery but there comes day when we can chose which apple to bite, hopefully some of those thugs will be confronted one day with the same existentialist question…hopefully

There are lots of factors on young people today. Family issues, lack of attention, social pressure, consumption, exclusion, lack of hope for a better future... Things are not so "stable" as they used to be... and all this anger is being canalized as a reaction by breaking the rules.

I am far to be a specialist, but I've worked with teenagers here. It is notorious how they cannot find spaces where to get orientation (emotional, vocational, etc)... Instead, there's social pressure, social pressure, social pressure.... It's not only in Geneva btw...

Since someone brought up Japan, here's how they queue.

LOVE those quotes Rich and they make your point perfectly.

The debates about socialisation, nature/nuture and parenting are tough and I find it hard to come out with a fixed or meaningful opinion.  What I do think I know quite strongly is that if the Police and Security guards are too scared or lazy to deal with low level crime then it creates the conditions where there is, to quote a politician from the days of the troubles in Northern Ireland, 'an acceptable level of violence'. I wonder what message it gave to the those young men on the train as they acted out and watched four security guards standing at the end of their carriage timidly wringing their hands.

I can certainly imagine a young guy or girl whose parents are working all day and then want to sit in front of the tv when they get home, feeling frustrated, disconnected and being able to only find that emotional connection they need among their peers.  If that group is not properly supervised, or worse faces little or no restriction on general anti-social behaviour by entities created/employed  SPECIFICALLY to deal with that kind of crap, then what message is it sending them?

I saw a really interesting documentary a while ago about a game reserve is Tanz in which Rhinos were being killed.  Long story short - young male rouge elephants were doing it.  Researchers discovered that the young males had been transported from an area of high poaching where almost all the mature males had been killed.  In thier natural environment, young males are controlled by older males when they misbehave, right down to sometimes two older males standing on either side of a young male and restraining him until he has calmed down.  Without this influence the young males had never learned or been helped to control their impulses with the result that they went around killing Rhinos.

I (boringly, sorry) fully agree that Geneva and Switzerland's main cities in general are going to the dogs. I've been here since 1983 and I have seen the gradual and steady social breakdown, not only from the kids but also adults who are now disrespecting public areas and neighbours.

If I should point out to the MOST ANNOYING thing it would be telephone conversations on public transport. Heck, it doesn't take much to just whisper: I'm on the bus, call you in five AND SPARE fifty other travellers who don't NEED/CARE TO KNOW YOUR LIFE STORY.

Even though I stand at a short 1m57 and the last time I checked I was a woman, I feel it is my moral and civil obligation to slow down anyone who is demonstrating antisocial behaviour in public. I have no qualms about stepping in when people through their own actions are putting themselves or anyone else in danger (yes that does include pets), as I have done so last week when an obviously drugged-up couple was hollering the street down at each-other over some infidelity issue (or something as sordid) being physically and verbally abusive to each-other and so for over 30 minutes (that was when we got there) and it went on for another half hour, tossing the poor Chihuahua back and forth at each-other, in the early evening at that! The tiny creature was terrified!!! (Others had been busy separating the couple for a while and got hit in the process, I stood up for the dog and got insulted in the process.)

Teens who mess around have MOTHERS who would no doubt appreciate someone else telling their offspring to stop whatever wrong they're doing, more so if they cannot inforce discipline themselves. I am the mother of a (TG) well-behaved, respectful, caring and disciplined teen-ager and believe coaching, parenting, listening and most of all loving your child achieves much richer results than spoiling them with the latest gadgets (I see 8 year olds walking alone on the streets in the evening with the latest ipods - SINCE WHEN DOES THAT REPLACE HOLDING YOUR MOTHER'S HAND FOR SAFETY??) and am appalled at the growing anticulture brought by the social networks and internet in general that discourage literacy.

Druggies, alkies - whatever dependent you are - keep it indoors. We don't need to see you wreck yourselves or want to be involved in your poor life choices, least of all when you take them out onto public spaces where kids, little old folk and landa people can see you.

PARENTS STEP IN and take responsibilty for YOUR children - they were YOUR CHOICE so don't make them somebody else's PROBLEM.

Definitely a cause for social entrepreneurship. The problem is everyone's because we have all consented (be it tacitly or actively) to the fragmentation of community spirit (if we even understand what that means) in favour of individualism very much fueled by the dynamics of capitalism (competition and scarcity each to their own) consumerism (keeps people distracted and in a mental frenzy perpetuating the problems).

This is an interesting subject where a number of things can be done, but it will not come from cumbersome and dogmatic government systems, nor from the families that struggled to instill values in the young when they themselves struggled. More to the point what are the values of the society we currently live in what example do we set. Would love to put a think tank together on this subject as it's one close to my heart in considering the need for enhancing social capital for a better world tomorrow.

Some insightful links below:

http://elementz.org/wp/ 

http://lebendig.org/formation.htm

http://www.peterblock.com/

Brilliant Maurice! Good post.

Anti-social behaviour is one facet of significant problem.  I would use an umbrella term 'disconnection' - individuals from each other, individuals from community etc. 

I've been looking at Human Givens Theory and one thing you notice via this theory is the rise in our society of depression, which HGT thinks of as 'a lack of community' problem.  I think they give the example in many pre-industrial (ish) societies including feudal societies of when the barn of someone in the community burns down.  The community rallies, everyone gets stuck in and they rebuild it.  What could be a catastrophe actually becomes an event of social cohesion and reinforcement.

It argues that the outward expression of depression actually act as signals to neighbours to do something. In a small community if widow X looks down people take her a meal, sit with her, offer to help with her shopping.

Youths acting out on the train is unpleasant, threatening and potentially dangerous but the real problem touches, and speaks about our society in general. 

It's a pity here, as I said earlier, people pride themselves on the enforcement of petty rules - denounicng their neighbours to the police for excruciatingly trivial things and then playing the 'Je m'en occupe de mes affairs' (sorry if I buthcered the French there) card when you ask about the real lives or problems of their neighbours.

simply,

Why did you go and ask these persons directly that you were annoyed?

I'm afraid I must disagree with you, as the offenders are not children being raised. These are adults making a conscious choice to be discourteous and to break laws.

Unfortunately we need laws and we need law reinforcement because there will always be individuals who make the world a worse place instead of a better one.

As a Swiss man I would like to give my view how this unfortunate trend developed in Geneva.

Up to the late 80s Swiss economy was very flourishing and unemployment limited to a mere 1%.  Streets were secure, you could cross a park in the middle of the night without being mobbed or worse and vandalism acts were rather limited to some parts of the canton.

Then came the 90's crisis which caused thousands of people to lose their jobs and especially in the third sector. At the same time appeared the post-punk, nihilist era of "grunge". Young people started wearing shabby clothes and behaving in outrageous manner. Many saw their parents' values as  obsolete and pointless. Future was grim and there was not much hope. This led to more cases of vandalism. Tags and graffiti covered Geneva's walls (even historical ones) in a couple of years and the police was helpless.

It was also at this time that the CFF decided to reduce staff and cut costs. Therefore no more controllers would be employed in regional trains which gave the signal to more outrageous behaviours especially of youngsters during Friday and Saturday nights. I remember 20 years ago seeing a group of young people smoking in a non-smoking carriage (it was before smoking was prohibited on all trains). I asked the teen sitting opposite me to refrain from smoking or changing of waggon. He said "fuck off" and exhaled smoke in my direction. They were in a big group so what could I do?

For me, the economic turmoil, violent video games and clips together with poor education, weak parents' control were all responsible for what has become the "standard behaviour" among part of today's youth.

Now what is a shame is the police in Geneva and Lausanne. The repression is very weak and the budget to recruit new members is seriously missing. 

But always please keep in mind that Geneva is not Switzerland, so don't judge the whole country by this sole city. If you go to Bern or Zurich you will see that we can be very serious with public security.

Correlation does not equal causation, but I concede it can be hard to tell the difference.

I do judge you for apparently not knowing, what you talk about re. "video games". Show us the research. I've looked. It's weak, inconclusive, political and the interpretation generally hyped into a tabloid newspaper article.

And yes, antisocial behaviour is regrettable, but it's not caused by games.. or movies.

Who are you to judge? Some books have been written on famous psychologist showing the correlation between video games and violence. Have you heard of a video game called "take 2" where you get marks by hitting old people?

An interesting reading on how video desensitizes youth to violence is "High Tech, High Touch" by John Naisbitt who is an authority in mega trends:

http://www.naisbitt.com/bibliography/high-tech-high-touch.html

Incivility and violence has centuplicated in Geneva just in the last five years.  And I agree the police seems to have no power.  Some time ago I witnessed a driver not yielding way and cutting in front of a car of the Police Municipale.  The agents weakly complained and didn't even stop the guy for a fine.

"The most common complaints about video games are that they (1) are socially isolating, (2) reduce opportunities for outdoor activities and thereby lead to obesity and poor physical health, and (3) promote violence in kids, if the games have violent content. On the face of it, of course, the first two of these claims should be truer of book reading than of video gaming. Concerning the third claim, I don't see any obvious reason why pretend murder of animated characters in video games should be any more likely to provoke real murder than, say, reading Shakespeare's account of Hamlet's murder of his stepfather. Yet we make kids read Hamlet in school."

Quoted from: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201201/the-many-benefits-kids-playing-video-games

The first incident happened in Zurich.

Guys,

It's wonderful that we are discussing this in an intelligent way....so let's not act out what we're talking about on the forum.  Let's keep it friendly and respectful toward each other.

  I think the conditions EVERYWHERE and at ANYTIME are such that people can 'go rogue'.  You only have to look at the Jewish, Russian, Chinese and Rwandan Holocausts to see that this is a problem of human nature.  Why does someone hit you?  Because they can. Not everyone will play the game, respect their community or neighbours but that's why we have entitites like the police and army etc.

What I find annoying and sad is when those entitites, people who are paid to protect society, do not do so.  I find it cowardly and low that a person takes a salary and accepts a trust and then when it comes time to perform the task for which they have been paid; suddenly decides that it's all too difficult.  I remember in Iraq landing in helicopter in a Foward Operating Base (FOB Kalsu) in the Sunni Triangle. A British Officer ran up to the chopper, leaned in the door way and shouted to me over the noise of the rotors "As soon as you step off this chopper keep your weapon loaded and on you at all times.  Insurgents have tried to kidnap soldiers off the perimeter."  I remember thinking "Shit I didn't sign up for this!" and immediately reminding myself that actually I had signed up for this.  So I got off the helicopter an did my job.  I can't believe that with the authority (and weapons) these people have, they let their timidity and fear beat them.  What made me really depressed was watching people stepping on to the train, looking at the carriage and then turning and walking to another part of the train.  I got talking to one guy who did this and he told me tha tthe security guards themselves had advised him to sit somewhere else.

Yes conditions here probably have deteriorated but, having lived and worked in lots of different places, I know that things here are more comfortable than almost anywhere else in the world.  What amazes me is seeing kids actually leaning in to conflict and aggression.  One of the most ridiculous thigs I have noticed here is graffitti tagging postal codes on walls - Seriously?  Is the Epilinges massive really having that much trouble with Ecublens?  Over what - fondue?  I grew up in Liverpool in the 70's/80's in Toxteth.  As an 8 year old I watched the Toxteth riots and thought it was armaggedon.  These kids do not have real problems; issues - for sure but probelms; no.

I think people have to start taking the guardians to task and not accepting weak and cowardly enforcement.  Collectively people need to stop accepting the police simply performing covert revenue collection (I called the police to a car crash and was sent a bill for CHF198) and insist that they do their jobs.

[Sigh] Yup.  That was a rant.

DISAGREE on the first part... I think most of us were referring to the groups of rowdy teens and young adults on buses and trams late at night. They are STILL in need of parenting but it would appear their elders have given up! ALSO shockingly, I see kids no older than 14 SMOKING WITH THEIR PARENTS!!! This is parental dismissal full steam ahead. And WE will pay for that - misbehaviour, bad habits then cancer.

FULLY AGREE that police forces should knuckle down and DO THEIR JOB. A few weeks back (I live in a flat overlooking a PRIVATE "square" where teens who don't even belong to the complex like to flock and organize parties with loud music and drinking very late at night) I had to call 117 because the noise was overwhelming and my husband had to get up at five to work. On my THIRD call at thirty minute intervals they still hadn't budged.

It took them fifteen minutes to appear at the couples' scandal which I related above, giving the culprits waaaaaaaaayyyy enough time to disappear after all the commotion and distress they had caused. Luckily, I'd written down the plate number so the guy (who obviously wasn't fit to drive) would be stopped before he killed someone. May I point out that we are in Eaux-Vives and that the station is at most at a three minute drive away!!!!! AND this was after my neighbour had called three times, not to mention other passersby, so they'd had about an hour to arrive. WHAT ARE WE PAYING TAXES FOR IF THE POLICE DOESN'T PROTECT US?

Burglaries - we get them every day now in our area. Druggies, Rom beggars and "antisocials" roam our streets at all hours, use the "square" as lavatories and the homeless who didn't make the curfew in the shelter created UNDER A PRIMARY SCHOOL just next-door hover all night in the vicinity. Syringes were found in the playground not long ago, next to broken glass beer and spirit bottles... I blame the sluggish borderguards who let "anyone" in - without controling their ID or whether they have sufficient funds (as it is the law) on them to justify their visit.

It used to be safe to walk in the evening lakeside, taking in the city lights and moonlight over the water was MAGIC - now even with my husband I don't dare go after nightfall. Where there used to be patrols, drug-pushers are openly selling their goods. I found a bag of "grass" the other day just next to the Jet d'Eau, in broad daylight!!!! When I called the police to report it, they just told me to leave it in their postbox!!! HHHEEELL-OOO???? Another time, Place des Eaux-Vives, I saw a pusher drop off a ball of cocaine (or whatever) behind a drainpipe in full view of everyone (it was mid-day) JUST WHERE MY SON TAKES HIS SCHOOL BUS EVERY DAY. A block away from a major Police Station...

Enough raving and ranting... In Switzerland the only self-defense protection that is legal to carry is pepper spray. On top of following all the common sense protocol for personal safety, I carry mine in my coat pocket at all times.

Thanks Wisdom,

I think almost everyone who comes on this forum (not just for this subject) could give ten stories just like that.  I was in a park a while back with my daughter and a group of young men were smoking weed. I asked them if they thought it was appropriate to be smoking in a public park and they said "We have nowhere else to smoke". I couldn't believe it.

I wonder whether it is time for a raising of public awareness and more non-violent but assertive public action. What type of model would work?  An action group that 'embarrased' the police into taking action against blatant crimes - like people not even disguising the fact that they sell drugs? 

I wonder whether it is because the pain versus reward ratio in busting a drug dealer is too high compared to ease of writing out a parking ticket for someone who has paid to park in a space but whose tyre is outside the white line???

Interested to get people's thoughts...and thanks for helping to make this a lively and interesting thread. 

Yup - I have very little trust, respect or confidence in the police.

I wonder what type of model

Mimi, I remember reading the story about the little old lady. She needed surgery after that but most of the damage was psychological, understandably.

Even if police tell us to call them and NOT intervene, the time it takes for them to arrive is appalling. So no, I don't care about my personal safety if someone more vulnerable than myself is being attacked. And if the FIRST person moves, trust me the rest of the crowd follows because they feel empowered.

It just takes the ONE to start...

I have noticed more and more "big brother" security groups hanging about. I definitely don't believe in them as they have no legal or punishment authority/means.

We need to pressure the Swiss and voting-abled residents of Geneva to put pressure on authorities and pass a law to strengthen and enforce police control.

Max, that is just MY idea of a "model" - I hope it can breed better ideas among this forum as it is so obviously simplistic... LOL.

Cheers,

Sophie aka Wisdom

"I think almost everyone who comes on this forum (not just for this subject) could give ten stories just like that."

I find that interesting because I could give many stories like that - but none of them happened in Switzerland, all were in the UK....I was pleasantly suprised a few weeks ago to see a train guard berating a young person for lighting a cigarette on the train from Basel to Geneva (in the UK often train conductors do nothing about anti-social behaviour in my experience). My impression has always been switzerland is a relatively low crime country and very safe, but it seems I may have just not had the bad luck to be in the wrong place at the wrong time yet?

Hi Mimi,

I see your point about people stepping up and getting hurt...but isn't that sad that the anti social behaviour wins out because people are too scared to say "I'm not going to sit around and see an old woman beaten up"?  With the greatest respect I hold the extreme opposite view to you and think that if you live your life avoiding doing the right thing and protecting yourself, you lose more than you know and help to contribute to a society where violence, aggression and weight of numbers wins out over decency and respect.  On two ocassions I have noticed people challenging aggressive/anti-social behavior and I have gone and stood next to them and asked if they needed support. I haven't suffered any violence because of it and I wonder if three or four people had had half the courage that old woman  and got up and simply stood next to her she might not have had to take the beating she did. Again, I wonder whether the Swiss neutrality thing, particularly when you think of staying out of the second world war (except for banking with Germany), is an attitude which percolates down to the point where police aren't that fussed and citizens will stand by and watch an old lady take a hiding.

That said, the point I keep making is that a more effective route is pressurising people WHO ARE ACTUALLY PAID TO STAND UP to do their job.  The comedian George Carlin said that we get the politicians we deserve.  Put it this way - if you had the choice of police forces, say they were privatised, would you agree to pay for the service you're receiving now?

100% agree with you about booze being responsible for more social problems than weed...but the fact is it's illegal and the activity surrounding its sale is as much a problem (probably more) than the weed smokers themselves.  Look at needle park and how quickly Zurich hoisted that one back in.

Thanks for posting and thanks for sharing your views.  I don't agree with everyhting you say but I'm glad you voiced an opinion ;-)

Hi Mark,

I take your point about seeing more hooliganism on UK trains (I think it's an Anglo Saxon thing ;-))

I respectfully disagree with you.  I've lived in a bunch of countries - Europe/Asia and worked in dozens more and what I am seeing here is the worst.

I know this is totally annecdotal but in 2008 I was doing private security in Iraq.  On one of my leave breaks home (Lausanne) I was walking through Chaudron at night and made eye contact with a guy who then started to shout abuse at me.  I kept walking and he followed, calling to a bunch of his friends who then started following me.  I jumped on a bus (without paying YIKES my bad!) and made a fast exit. It really struck me that I felt safer in the Red Zone in Baghdad than walking home after going to the late night COOP. Now I know that story is not useable to support my general argument but it should illustrate that I have worked in some high threat environments and know a problem area when I see one and I am seeing one here. Plus it has never happened anywhere else.

Swiss friends are equally frustrated by police laziness and incompetence. A friend moved from Fribourg to Geneva.  Someone trashed his car during the night and when he called the police they said "Nothing we can do about that but you haven't re-registered your car here so here's a fine"  Not even a hint of basic police work - knocking on doors and asking people in front of the parking space if they heard or saw anything; no check of CCTV, taking finger prints etc.  Are Swiss police really that under resourced that they can't be bothered or were they off the day they taught police work at police school?

Hey - hope I'm not coming across as hostile btw and thank you for joining in the discussion.

Max, thanks again for your posts. Your comments cracked me up about tagging post codes. I'm still looking out for 'CH-1223 4ever' from the South Central Cologny massive.

What I am really amazed at is the police charging victims for the services our taxes should cover. Is this normal practice or am I missing something? You were charged for calling them to an accident and your friend from Fribourg being fined his car. What would happen if someone threw you through a plate glass window; fined for breaking and entering and criminal damage perhaps? 

Geneva doesn't seem to have a police force anymore - just a bunch of glorified traffic wardens. No f--king wonder it's become the way it has.

As Genevoise, I confirm you, Geneva has been changing in bad way. It was safer in the past. But if you complain about security the group of Bisounours will say that you go far, ect... Because of this Bisounours who does not want to see the truth, these ones who have no trouble, everything go wrong. Maybe someday they will listen but before that... As swiss I am very shocked. In the past we were in the safest country now it is contrary...few months ago I had a problem in a train in Italy with a group of stupid teenagers looking for trouble who annoyed me because of my stranger face. When I reported to a controller, immediately he put the boys out of the train, that is what I appreciated and felt respected. Some bisounours will say "How bad to put out these young guys, they are young, you need to understand them blabla" As stupid bisounours still think "if you receive a kick on the right cheek, tend the other cheek"

Treating the bad ones like victims is the worst mistake, and that is always the case in Geneva. Instead of "victimizing" people, educate is better, behave is better !

@Max, well I was just reporting my experience and impressions here - I am sure different people have different impressions depending on whether they experience crime (not suprisingly not having experienced it or knowing many people who have I feel quite safe living here - but maybe we live in safer parts of the area and so don't see the crime that others have to put up with - certainly where I came from in Sheffield I know where I lived was vary crime free, but not so other towns or parts of the city)

I would say I definitely feel a lot safer here than other places I have lived e.g. Manchester 10 years ago where nearly everyone I knew was a victim of crime whilst living there, including myself numerous times. 

Cheers Mark. I appreciate your views and agree that two people can have widely different experiences.

Errr...I'm from Liverpool so talking about Manchester is unlikely to elicit an unbiased response ;-)

If there was a misunderstanding it wa sprobably from my side ;-)

Cheers Mimi

Italian controller - Voila! Someone not afraid to say something.

Tsatsa what's a Bisounours?

Bisonours aka: the care bears, you know, the cartoon characters

They sound deadly.  Maybe they're the guys we need on the case.

Guys, just turn this on its head for a moment. You are sitting on the train, youths are misbehaving, The Police arrive, an altercation starts, the Police baton and spray a few of the youths before dragging them off the train. This thread would have been entitled 'Police brutality on train towards youths' and we would all be crticising the appalling heavy handedness of the Geneva Police. Truth is that they are trying to deal with the problem with one hand tied behind their back. Policing is a thankless job, especially when you are constrained by so much red tape. They have a dual job to perform, to protect and also meter out restraining measures when required, all tied up with acting within the human rights acts which gives all the rights to those who choose to ignore other peoples human rights. 

The security guards risk to lose their job if they intervene, they are not Police and as such do not have powers of arrest and restraint over and above the minimum force required. And in honesty, would you start trouble with around 15 youths, who if they wish, can kill you by kicking you to death, or taking your baton off you and beating you senseless with it? Would you, as a civilian intervene to help these guards if they were attacked, or would you walk on by or turn up your Ipod? Its not like the movies where you do a couple of high flying kicks and a couple of roundhouses to fell 10 people with one swoop, you put your arm up to defend yourself and it gets broken very quickly.

Its the reality of inner city Policing these days coupled with a lack of discipline and impossible rules that constrain the forces of law and order. However, it is us that allows these laws to be enacted, no-one else. A good guideline for those who will come to me quoting human rights law and so forth is that the moment you choose to ignore somebody else's human rights, your forfeit the right to use the same laws in defence of your actions or the consequences thereof.

Bring back the stock like in the good old days !!! Parc des Bastions would be a good place for this, the thugs will be held during 24 hours in a stock device having solely for a view the taciturnal and grim Calvinist statues looking down on them with their eternal frown of dissaprovement ...

And for the really dangerous ones public beheading with all the drama and theatrical grandeur of the French revolution, sssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhlllllack !

Oh no, I here you say, how inhumane, ohhhh we can’t do that, we would be taking hundreds of years back of human progress in law and enforcement.

Nanny state !!! Or to some 'Bisounours' state ...lol

 Alternatively one can always seek martial arts lessons, there is all to gain and nothing to lose...

Ypu make some good points there Firemat...some of which I have to admit I hadn't thought of.

I guess if you sat down with 100 policemen and found out the realities of their job you would come away with a different point of view.

I think the ambiguities you identify can be resolved by being very specific on what behaviour is tolerated and what is not.

Ultimately I think we can never allow sheer weight of numbers to permit inaction and to answer your question - I have stepped in once in a street mugging when I was with my wife and kids and saw a couple getting mugged by a group of teenagers.

You don't have to stand tall in this world but you do have to stand up.

Again, thank you for adding to the discussion and offering a different point of view.

You would see huuuge fluctuations depending on the season. On a day like this EVERYONE would be on their best behaviour because - no one would want to be out in stocks for 24 hours in this weather.  Summer months - I think people would get bolder.

I think it's those grim statutes that make kids rebel in the first place!!!

Thanks for a funny post! ;-)

Sorry "bisounours" are "care bears" (see pic below) Genevois people say that for the ones who defend the disturbing people and are responsible for the security problem. This french word comes from "bisous" which mean "kiss". The Genevois who act like "bisounours" do not like hearing truth, and if you say you have a problem with security, you are extremist, excessive, etc... That is really painful ! When I was student I felt ok in common transport during the night, now I do not feel safe  :( It is not the first time that a non-genevois complain about security but they really do not want to hear and because of that tourists do not want to come back, that's a shame for Geneva and for the image we had !

I follow you Woja... But you are missing the point. Why do we have police to begin with if they don't ensure our security? Let the Swiss vote to reduce the red tape, employ more people, have more punitive power, not be shy about sending people to jail... Problem solved.

I didn't want to tell this very personal story but now feel I must...

My ex got together with three of his fellow countrymen and ganged up on my 25 year-old brother-in-law two years ago in the early hours of the morning one day. He was on his way to school, they were returning from an all-nighter, probably on several types of highs. They beat the crap out of him, at Cornavin Station, seven a.m., in full view of the commuters, no one helped (of course) one against FOUR. Luckily there were plainclothes policemen on site who caught three of the culprits, two of them without legal residency permits. They finally caught the fourth guy and we pressed charges. WHAT DID THEY GET?? 15 DAYS JOUR AMENDE - fines!!! Not a day in the cooler, not even an hour. Did my bro-in-law get compensated? Not a chance. Did they so much as pay his medical bill or insurance non-refundable (when we knew the precise identity of each of the four attackers)!!! Did he get back the watch they stole from him? Did the illegal residents get any punishment or get sent back to their country? NO!!! Am I bitter about it? YOU BET. Since then and in spite of it all my ex got his definitive residency papers and works as a cabbie... NO PROBLEM.

It is high time Geneva police shape up and DO SOMETHING. Don't let immigrants stay if they misbehave. THERE ARE ENOUGH CRIMINALS for us not to have to bear those who aren't supposed to be here. This is not racist, just basic maths. I am also speaking of the overcrowded prisons packed to the ceilings with people who aren't legal on Swiss territory. Our taxes are supporting them too... Those that are caught without papers should be sent back, ESPECIALLY if they are involved in crime. My bro-in-law didn't provoke them, he just took the bus and happened to be the brother of the man I married after my other marriage broke down. It was bitter, ugly, blind and cowardly revenge. Unpunished...

PLUS as Tsatsa says, tourism is suffering from the growing insecurity, Geneva is losing its glow... Without tourists, less income and we're full circle.

Incentive, empowerment of the forces is the only solution. We cannot afford to let this situation get worse. Toughen immigration policies for criminals, too.

I agree with the post. Now after reading all the posts, the situation looks more scary. It has now impacted the way I perceive Geneva.

Now the big question is, what we - the expatriates, could do to convey the concern to the authorities than merely feeling more scared by exchanging stories.

The authorities have good reason to be worried. Of late, there was not a single meeting in my organization, where at least one international participant was not mugged or robbed. This happens in a very small area, i.e. around the station. Still the criminals can continue fearlessly.

There is a middle path also than either being indifferent or beating the miscreants. The police should do that, They need to create soem fear among the anti-social elements so that others could feel secure.

I think public parks are appropriate places to smoke weed!

I think that the middle path should involve giving those who choose a profession to uphold the law the powers to do so without fear of reprisals so long as they stay within the framework of the law that they uphold. I also believe that people have the legimate right to self defence and that we all have the right to go about our daily lives unhindered by others. The middle line is the most diffcult one to find, but in this day and age the shift leftwards by the general public, the madness of political correctness and the media frenzy of glorification and dramatisation do not help the situation.

Churchill said  "We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."  

the above quote may seem dramatic, but at least give the protectors the power to act in a way that allows the general public to feel safe, and give the public the confidence and responsibility to protect themselves and their loved ones should they need to.

Hi Wisdom,

So sorry to hear that, that is awful. But this is what I am kind of saying, the victims are no longer the focus anymore, it’s always the thug that gets all the attention and in some cases pity which is plainly wrong.

I think being in the police force must not be easy at all and it is very stressful but there is such an incentive to come down on everyday working honest people (speeding tickets, parking fines, etc...) which is of course much easier and is a collateral way to boost state funding than tackling real crime, I know this all seems to easy and even a bit of a clichés but it has some truth in it.

Geneva is a violent city for sure, but expecting better policing to provide a better sense of safety is a pipe dream, my forgone conclusion is that they are never there at the critical moment and besides safety is a mere illusion, we are never really safe.  In the prehistoric age humans had to look over their shoulder and had their defence senses heightened by that very mere fact nowadays we relay too much on a false sense of security, too many safety nets kills the very thing we which to prevent.

To call ourselves civilised is pure utopia, we are nothing but war mongering crazing violent beings that only intellectual discernment and choice of lifestyle can put us on the right path, how can we expect the world to be better place when we cannot even stop the frenzy global race of economic growth and that people are ready to kill for a parking spot (as I have once witnessed), somehow the Japanese manage to keep their cool in such a situation.  The real war out there is the war on our soul and spirit, what is going to be the next big thing….I do wonder.

Anyway I digress but sure things are not looking Rosy …

It's a rather pessimistic point of view, my friend

I shall keep hoping against hope that somehow the Genevan authorities will wake up and sanitize the city.before anyone gets badly hurt. Meantime I shall keep looking over my shoulder for predators and devils such as my ex and continue - at my own risk - to defend the weaker than myself if and when confronted.

The obvious basic security rule is to avoid the station and its whereabouts as much as possible at any time, as well as Charmilles and Avanchet after dusk. Stick to the lit areas at night, don't carry your valuables all in the same place and don't carry any more than you really need, keep that pepper spray handy in your pocket, look at the pavement when you walk, keep photocopies or scans of all your bank cards and ID at home or on you (in the case of the ID) while leaving the originals at home (unless you need to cross the border). If you really want to wear expensive jewelry, take a cab/car to and from the event you're attending. Keep a cell in your coat pocket and if attacked scream your lungs out for help (hoping someone will call 117). Avoid the parks and particularly the docks/Jet d'Eau/Jardin Anglais after dark and/or when there are few people out unless you're wearing sports gear and have next to nothing on you in terms of valuables.

Have a great day!

Sophie aka Wisdom

Woja and Sophie I'm annoyed with both of you because you're both making such excellent points. Each time I think my mind is made up I hear something that forces me to think more and consider a different point of view. I guess it highlights how grey this issue is.

I just watched an excellent documentary last night on  the Leveson Inquiry.  Hugh Grant leads the pressure group Hacked Off and has been campaigning for independant regulation of the media.  One of the most powerful arguments at his disposal was the result of a YouGov poll in which 90% of those who took part in the survey thought that the media should be regulated.

It's hard to argue with a number like that.  I mentioned in earlier posts that an action group could do something to raise awareness and perhaps embarrass the police/rail authorities to do something.  Sadly, I think with politicians (and a lot of appointments in civil and police sectors are political) stick works better than carrot and there is no bigger stick than being replaced due to inefficiency.

So my idea would be:

A web site in which people could vote on some key questions:

Are you satisfied with the level of service you receive from the police?

Are you satisfied with response times when the police are called to an emergency?

Were you satisfied with the action the police took when they were called?

etc..

I think if there was an overwhelmingly negative response and the results were published it could galvanise the police.

It could go further and allow people to highlight problem areas.  If 100 women (or men for that matter) said that they felt the Jet d'eau was a no go area for them after 8 p.m. it would start to draw focus and hopefully shape action.

The problem is that police obey to the politics. They do not decide, they are employee and must follow decisions from the head of police...

Politics really need a big kickass. Maudet told to improve security, but I do not believe it as long as I do not see results.

That will be interesting to put in your website idea the number of people saying they have a problem with security to show there is a big group of persons who wants to see a big change, an improvement and to contradict the hypocrit bisounours. And to point out the bad consequences (tourism, image of the city) by hoping this will have an effect on the naive politics...but not sure ! :( as long as t^he politics earn their big salary they do not care so much for people safety as they are themselves well safe !

"For evil to triumph it is necessary only for good men to do nothing."

Edmund Burke

" What is a good man but a bad mans teacher?
What is a bad man but a good mans job?" - Lao Tzu  

To expect police to be everywhere and respond to calls when they no doubt have many and are overwhelmed does not discharge the role of the responsible citizen.  I note in the thread numerous cases where people stand and watch while other's get hurt.  That for me is the problem, e.g. it's not my problem attitude i.e. there's police for that sort of thing. But therein lies the problem, the dependency on government/authority goes beyond financial hand outs.  To depend on elected authority as the answer to all our problems is naive, and yet another convenient way for people to say it's not their problem.  

Each one of us from an ethical and humanistic perspective has in my view a responsibility to act.  There are many examples in the US of citizen groups creating their own protection forces some might have even been called vigilantes - which I do not advocate.  But what if our towns were to become known among the criminal community as a place where citizens don't take any shit - perhaps overtime the deterrent effect might work.  I think we can all wait some time yet for the normal law enforcement system to operate as we would like, because if it were truly the answer this thread might not be so well endowed.  

As for dealers, they exist because they are buyers (people with money, problems, etc), as for immigrants (well we wanted Europe we got it - what are the benefits - the trade off?), as for the homeless we most probably act as if they're a bread apart, yet having spoken to a number they are more like you and me than you might think, just wrong place wrong time.  

How about creating a media campaign for responsible citizenship that refuse to get bullied by thugs and calling people to act in groups whenever they see injustice, anti-social behaviour, etc.?  Prevention versus Cure?  I am sure there are already models for this elsewhere.   

It's legal to carry a pepper spray in CH?  I didn't know that.

Great post Maurice - thank you.

Maybe we need to stop thinking either/or and embrace all the options mentioned in this thread.

Why don't you start such a campaign?  I'll join you.

Who else wants to join?

Yes John, not tear gas though...(I asked the Police after my bro-in-law got attacked). Or any other kind of weapon for that matter (sorry, no knives, guns, bazookas, hand grenades... LOL). However its use is also very restricted - only for self-defense when you are being personally physically attacked. Being scared of a possible attack that hasn't actually HAPPENED yet makes YOU the guilty one, even if there was verbal abuse and/or threats OR any other kind of frightening behaviour by the other party..

You can get pepper spray from a shop Rue de Lausanne that sells fishing and hunting gear (about 2/3 down the road, on the way to Mr. Pickwick's) and from drugstores around town. The device is discreet and fits in a small hand (such as mine) which can fold completely around it. Cost is about twenty Swiss Francs and they are available in several colours.

I'm told drugstores sell them too...

Meeeeeeeeeeeeee!

I guess that spraying the wife and kids is out of the question, they can get out of hand sometimes!

although from reading this thread there are no effective police to catch me :)

That's strange because as I recall, in the UK a legal defense to attacking an aggressor BEFORE they've laid hands on you is that their behaviour or threats  "caused you to apprehend immediate physical harm".

My ex-would give me a beat down if I pulled that.  She's small but she's fast.

Welcome to Switzerland!

When I separated from my ex (the violent one) as long as the divorce hadn't come through but even after it had started, he was legally as entitled to live in our flat as me (even if his name wasn't on the lease, I had a child (not his) to care for half the time and he'd never paid the rent himself)!!!

If you're married and being physically abused, Police will interfere. But if you're separated, they won't.

If your ex (even during divorce procedure) is threatening you on the landing of your flat, the Police can take him away. But if you open the door and he attacks you, the blame is shared. YOU ARE GUILTY OF PUTTING YOURSELF IN DANGER BY OPENING THE DOOR!

You can't divorce on infidelity grounds. It's been taken off the law books for over ten years now.

Reporting your neighbour for making too much noise is no longer the Police's problem, even outside of the legal hours as described in the tenancy contracts.

When my neighbour bangs one of his (multiple but always high-pitch voiced) girlfriends at three in the morning and she's howling like a pornstar, I just have to live with it... Sometimes it goes on ALL NIGHT (actually regularly) - this guy has either extraterrestrial stamina, a hefty stack of blue pills or he pays them well to feed his ego... No manners, no self-respect... No use calling them either, here!

SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME what the Police is actually DOING, so I can stop calling them to protect me, defend my privacy, clean up the streets, make me feel safe, control abusive people, punish misbehaviour, make people respect public property... I FRIGGING GIVE UP.

Wisdom, call them only, when you really need them* (also, they apparently charge a handsome fee).

Also.. what! Does one need some kind of permission to divorce and, on top of that, infidelity is not reason enough... wtf.

*Be glad that your neighbour at least doing something positive for someone, right? ;)

FerneyL you are totally missing my points...

I HAVE called them when I needed them - they hardly ever came!

I have never been charged - where did you get that from?

The rare times they did make it, it was fairly late (only once did they happen to pass by as I was being hassled and they actually did their job).

Where did you get the fact that we needed permission to divorce? I am stating the absurdity of certain protective laws that don't apply during the divorce procedure, which is probably the time when the woman (especially in an abusive relationship) needs it the most.

Yes, in most countries divorcing on the grounds of infidelity is recognized. In Swiss courts it is not - you need another reason and to prove it. And what if it IS the reason?

You wouldn't be so sarcastic if YOUR nights were regularly cut short,  had a teen-age son sleeping in the next room who got woken up in the middle of the night on a regular basis by the indecent screaming - think EMBARRASSING for a few seconds here - and if your husband regularly had to work from six a,m. to four p.m., BOTH your loved ones getting their nights amputated by the selfishness and exhibitionism of your neighbours!  I am probably the last person on Earth who disapproves couples having some intimacy, as long as they keep it to themselves or do it in the hours where I can play music or watch TV loud enough not to hear them. I'm sure that in this light you will agree with me. :-)

Have a nice day... I'm looking forward to the '80s party tonight - I have a feeling it is going to be good fun!!!

I have been told that Police come depending on the quarter you live...So that will explain why they come to some places and not to other! But it is not normal, it should be the same for everybody !

I had some problem like you Wisdom as I was harassed by an ex and called police many times. Thanks God, they came but later...and when I did the final complaint (after the ex tried to kill me in my underground parking)  at a crowdy police station (crowdy - not of policemen but people who complainted too) they did not have in memory all the call I did. That means that if you call police they keep a trace but they do not find easily in their system ! So you must bring them a sum-up with date and hour of your calls with details that happened.

Looking at video games from another benefitial angle:

Virtual reality is currently being used to treat PTSD patients; soldiers may be drawn to this type of therapy because they've grown up playing video games. And it can help other types of patients too; it’s been used to reduce fear in people with phobia, manage stress in cancer patients…

Wisdom,

Sorry about my GF.  She does become a little vocal at times.

x

I've thought about writing a letter (or even a petition) signed by several hundred expats and have it published on the Tribune De Genève.

Now I think it would be even a better idea to send it to the International Herald Tribune or similar.

It is sad to say but it looks like the only thing Switzerland cares about is money.  Geneva has already a bad reputation worldwide and it was estimated that this would have caused 10'000-15'000 less tourists this year.  When crime starts forcing people and companies to move, the economy of the region will take a downturn and politicians eventually will have to react.

We've seen last year TPG deploying platoons of policemen only to find the dangerous criminals who did not pay 3.50 CHF for the trip.  But they don't give a damn about deploying a single security guard to avoid people being aggressed, since it's not their money involved.

HI OmegaMan,

I think it's a great idea.

I was thinking of setting up an inexpensive web site thaty allowed people to answer a few short questions and see what the general response was.  If you could get a decent sample of people and the majority felt dissatisfied with current levels of  police service then that might make an interesting story.

You SHOW OFF  - loooollll. No, it wasn't YOU/HER this time! Perhaps I should introduce you to my neighbour so you could all choose a specific night to do it so we'd have the REST of the time off...

Oh i am glad that here, people understand, because i am really fed up with Bisounours who say that everything is ok with security...You can notice that the ones who do not go out, only stay in posh car with posh friend cannot understand about security problem ! and some NEVER heard about horrible crimes made that you can read in Tribune de Geneve, and again if it is mentionned in Tribune de Geneve !

Indeed, TSATSA! There are lots of Bisounours in the upper class people. I remember well-off friends living in Chambésy looking at me totally flabbergasted when I told them about the problems I encountered in Charmilles where I used to live with drug dealers and their clients. They simply did not believe me and thought I was grossly exagerating.

Finally I moved to Ferney although I'm Swiss, since this is much quieter here but I am very upset - to say the least - by the Geneva's government attitude. In 10 years from now Geneva will be made of the upper class living in posh areas or suburbs and poor people living in ghettos and depending on social welfare. All the middle-class will have moved in France by then for both security and housing reasons. Is that what the government wants? And here there is no right or left-sided debate. Politicians of all parties have been totally useless for decades.

You don't even need a "site"  .. Use http://www.surveymonkey.com  You can create the questions and analyse the answers and create a report which could be sent to someplace to publicise? 

Try and get all these problems sorted out before i arrive please :-)

Time to vote then, friend... We can't so you should.

We do vote, sadly the "bisounours" also do vote. Some leading political parties are still denying reality of things. Our laws and judicial processes still haven't been updated to reflect the changing reality. It's a long way before.

I agree it really feels dirty in there but come on! it still isn't Sao Paulo-on- Leman. Though in Sao Paulo there is a very effective police action... 

Cheers Fella - will try harder next time ;-)

I had a really interesting discussion with a friend yesterday about this.  He lives around La Tour in Lausanne. 

He attended a public meeting a while back in which the police and community leaders were available for questions from the public.  The police's response to some of the issues talked about here was:

Drug legislation is Federal and it is very wishy washy.  When they arrest a drug dealer they have to apply Federal Law - there are no sperate cantonal laws.

Most of the drug dealers they arrest are asylum seekers who have absolutely no fear of judicial censure in Switzerland.  There is very little they can do to asylum seekers waiting for their asylum appeals to be heard. They get a fine which they often do not pay or spend a few weeks in jail which, compared to  conditions where they've come from, is not in the least bit worrying. 

Yup - you're right.  There probably is tons more crime in Sao Paulo or South Central but the difference that makes a difference here  is that Geneva/Lausanne are cities being policed by law enforcement who have small town attitudes wielding ineffective laws which are applied by a constrained judiciary.

This clip is probably irrelevant but amusing all the same.  Gives a flavour of policing elsewhere:

"I've asked you twice. Now you're making me nervous."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c50QLptkykM