Wondering whether anyone there in Zurich read reports of this in the NZZ or the Tags A -- the Tribune de Geneve reports Zurich police noting that the wounds were "superficial"...:ermm:
Translator, Feb 13, 2009 @ 03:32

Swissinfo: February 13, 2009 - 3:48 PM   

Doubts raised over Brazilian attack claims

A Brazilian woman who claimed to have miscarried twins after an alleged attack by neo Nazis in Zurich was not pregnant, Swiss investigators have confirmed.

The 26-year-old lawyer had told police three youths sporting neo Nazi symbols had attacked her in a Zurich railway station and carved the initials of the rightwing Swiss People's Party into her skin, resulting in a miscarriage.

Zurich University forensic medicine chief Walter Baer said on Friday that tests showed the woman had not been pregnant and added that "any experienced forensic doctor would not hesitate to assume that this was a case of self-harm".

The marks on her skin were not serious and could easily have been self-inflicted, he told a news conference.

Swiss and Brazilian newspapers had printed photographs of the cuts on the woman's legs and abdomen.

Details of the alleged attack prompted Brazil to summon the Swiss Ambassador and call for a full inquiry. The French News Agency reported that Foreign Minister Celso Amorim expressed "deep concern" over a "case with an obvious xenophobic motive".

The woman is being treated in hospital.

Translator, Feb 13, 2009 @ 17:55

Well from what I saw in the paper, the marks of violence seemed very precise. The Brazilian female would have had to be very crafty to make such well precisioned razor cuts on her abdomen. I think there will be more efforts made to discredit the Brazilian's story since Switzerland must always appear to be this peaceful place where racial harmony is at some nirvanic plateau. I hope all non-nationals pay attention to this saga and note how this issue is being treated by the authorities. Racism is alive and well. 
Juiceman, Feb 13, 2009 @ 20:01

Juiceman (13/02/2009)

---

Well from what I saw in the paper, the marks of violence seemed very precise. The Brazilian female would have had to be very crafty to make such well precisioned razor cuts on her abdomen. I think there will be more efforts made to discredit the Brazilian's story since Switzerland must always appear to be this peaceful place where racial harmony is at somenirvanic plateau. I hope all non-nationals pay attention to this saga and note how this issue is being treated by the authorities.Racism is alive and well.



And from what I read in the paper, the girl blatantly lied about being pregnant and about having a miscarriage due to the said aggression. Can you really blame the police to be cautious about the case?

Casuistik, Feb 13, 2009 @ 20:51

We had a very similar case in Germany a couple of years ago.

Only then, the "victim" was a handicapped girl in a wheelchair, carving SS-runes into her arms or legs (don't remember exactly).



This story had "Bogus!" written on it almost from the beginning.

30% of Swiss men marry a woman from outside Switzerland. This mostly means Brazilian, Thai or some other nation (Eastern Europe etc.).

I don't believe that SVP-voters mean young, attractive women from South-America or Asia when they demand "less foreigners".



The problem with these kinds of incidents is that they do a disservice to the whole expat/foreigner community.

Because, ask yourself (more so if you're a woman): next time somebody reports an "incident" similar or in the spirit of this one, don't you think the police will also think twice about taking it serious? They'll have the same thought I had...



rainer_d, Feb 15, 2009 @ 01:41

Ahem...:Whistling:

First of all, no one knows (with the exception of the alleged victim) what happened (at least as of current reports), not even the Zurich forensic medical chief, particularly as    it appears he is making pronouncements without even having examined the alleged victim.

Second, just because "30 percent of Swiss men marry foreigners" if doesn't necessarily follow that some part of the other 70 percent, some part of whom belong to the SVP, don't hold  racist and xenophobic beliefs against foreign women...And even if that were the case, the SVP is not only made up of men! 

Finally, yes, if the story is wholly untrue, it is indeed a sick hoax.  However, there will always be people who use such an incident to deny that racist, anti-semetic, and xenophobic attacks  don't occur. 
Translator, Feb 15, 2009 @ 04:43

Correction: on the first point, another news source does report that the Zurich forensic medical doctor quoted was, indeed, in charge of the case. 
Translator, Feb 15, 2009 @ 05:12

 

Never, I mean never ONCE, in my life have I EVER heard someone speak up and deny that attacks occur based on race, semitic attitudes or xenophobic attacks. NEVER have I ever heard someone make a case for that. But I ALWAYS hear claims the second an opportunity to claim any attack might be a hate crime of some kind, that it is tied to racism. I have interacted on a constant 24 hour basis with mass media, advocacy groups and political figures for years and I cannot remember this happening one time.

I have heard people RESPOND to claims that certain attacks were based on issues of racial dissent and argue that the issue could be the result of some other attitudes other than racism, anti semite, or xenophobic problems, but the argument always starts as a claim of racism not a denial of it.
worldtodd, Feb 15, 2009 @ 06:36

NEVER?  Wow!  I guess you aren't familiar with the practices of various racist organizations such  as the Klu Klux Klan and the White Arayan Resistance movement...And the propaganda of the SVP is clearly racist...

And just what do you think Holocaust deniers are all about? It's all about minimization of racist, anti-semitic, and xenophopic acts...

I worked in politics a very long time and have heard people deny and then minimize incidents when confronted with the facts...

How many Germans during World War II, do you  think, said they never saw any Jews being killed....Lots and lots...
Translator, Feb 15, 2009 @ 07:36

That last sentence should read..."...killed or attacked.." *

*(Lack of coffee while responding..)
Translator, Feb 15, 2009 @ 08:01

 

First of all you yourself were only born thirteen years after the END of World War 2 sixty three years ago. All of the people you claim were making these denials are very likely to be dead by now and will not always be around to deny the existence of these issues. And my response has nothing to do with what I THINK about seventy year old war where I have never heard a German deny those things happened, my response was about never hearing denials in the media, politically, by advocates, or in private conversation that crimes based on race, anti semite attititudes, nor xenophobe actions ever happen. I have heard many times debate sparked by crimes being categorized as racially based offenses, but never denied to exist. Also I find it funny how many people advocate to stop stereotyping and profiling by law enforcement and here I am listening to someone sterotyping all Germans living in WW2 Germany as being involved in the holocaust. I find it very believable that millions of Germans in Germany at that time could have been very sheltered from any atrocities that may have occurred at the time. Claiming everyone would be aware is like claiming that every person who smokes has lung cancer or every business owner has conservative views. You are attacking claims that are easily understandable as valid in regards to WW2 Germany without any justification that the claims made by these people were one hundred percent accurate. You being from the USA should remember that people are innocent until proven guilty, but it would seem your feelings on WW2 Germany that every German was guilty. My dad and his sister were both holocaust survivors from one of the more famous camps.

 

Then you make claims there is a concerted effort to minimize by Holocaust deniers based on racism, anti-semitic, and xenophobic acts. I am not meaning to offend you, but the sense I get from you is that you are maximzing the number of guilty people just by saying everyone there HAD to be guilty just because they lived in Germany. So what seems to be going on is one group is supposedly minimizing, while you are definitely maximizing the problems on that issue seventy years ago.

Groups formed out of ignorance like the KKK have been steadily declining for decades. That is a sign of progress for society. I think it is a result of increased awareness, changing laws, new technologies, and what is generally a more sophisticated society than what has existed in past generations. I think progress will continue down its positive path, but I think there is another brand of awareness that has been developed that is intended to maximize the problems so that the success of progress is not conciously shared by all. There has been a genre of comedy developed that focuses and capitalizes on racism. There is also a genre of journalism that capitalizes on racism as a revenue stream. There are corporations that market to the emotions experienced as a result of apparent racial issues. Racism these days is fortune 500 style business with tons of jobs and stirred emotions to make people nervous everywhere and the mass media and music industry to drive the madness to remind everyone it is out there. Some idiot white boy in the backwoods of Alabama USA with attitudes based out of ignorance is nearing extinction, but will always be the martyr of the issue. As long as the ISSUE helps someone who feels alienated based on race to run out and buy a brand that makes them feel warm and fuzzy, the problem will exist. Even then it is not the issue in its original form, hatred and ignorance, now and in the future it will be capitalism.

I think in the future I might agree with you that there are people who do deny that crimes based on race exist. As long as comedians are allowed to develop their fan base to laugh at race based jokes, journalists hold debates intended only to create emotion based on race and not actually to resolve anything, and cultural differences are ridiculed to develop attitudes susceptible to marketing strategies that target small segments of society the problem will be denied. The issue to address is not that this ignorance towards race is a human trait, but that it is the result of years of conditioning from the human experience distorted by opportunistic capitalists.
worldtodd, Feb 15, 2009 @ 08:43

Well, that is quite a response...

But let me clarify for you the following mistaken notions...

A. At no time have I ever stated or stereotyped all Germans as Holocaust-deniers or stipulated that all Germans are guilty of war crimes or or even said that all Germans denied of the facts... You may wish to re-read my comments...  I have been to Germany several times and have had many, many discusssions with German friends and acquaintances on the topic of that war as well as on the recent Balkan conflict...

While WWII was indeed quite a while ago, its effects still reverberate throughout many institutions,  most recently, the Vatican, whose leader reinstated to the Catholic Church a known-Holocaust denier...The Pope has had to do quite a bit of fancy footwork walking back that decision.  (Those who are interested can hear more about this from the celebrated Swiss theologian Hans Kung, who was interviewed recently on World Radio Switzerland.) 

All that being said, my point is that people do, indeed, deny and minimize the truth about the effects of racism, anti-semitism, and xenophobism..

What is positive, however, is that the Swiss themselves have been to be increasingly rejecting attempts by the SVP aka the Swiss People's Party to demonize foreigners, first through  the defeat of Christoph Blocher and by turning down recent anti-foreigner initiatives sponsored by the SVP...

So why continue to raise issues?  Well, did you know that one of Geneva's synagogue's was set on fire last year?  Or that the Hebrew studies center just across from that same synagogue was vandalized  a couple of weeks ago? 

B. You may believe that the Klan, the WAR and other groups  are founded upon ignorance. I believe they are founded fundamentally upon hatred.  And while certain types of groups are on the decline, others are on the rise---if you  doubt that, please review the websites of the Anti-Defamation League  and the Southern Poverty Law Center.

C.  I certainly agree with you that there are lots of people, minorities, in particular, who are ready to play "the  race  card" and some among them, who make a really good living out of it. That is worth condemning and I do condemn it.  And there is a whole new generation of people of all colors who are working across the United States and the world, who are working to ensure that individuals are judged not by their color but by the content of their character...

But that does not mean that racist incidents don't still happen both here and in the U.S. Sure, there has been progress, but that doesn't mean that vigilence isn't still needed...

And just so you know, just the other day, a white person used the "N" word in my presence.  She was trying to make a joke about something but it didn't quite work. She's still my friend and I did not charge her a fee for subjecting me to the word...But I think I told her to check out Chris Rock on www.youtube.com about when a white person can use that word...:P
Translator, Feb 15, 2009 @ 09:51

 

A do apologize. I made the mistake. I read into what you said about "lots and lots" of Germans denying and translated that as "all" Germans.

The point I disagreed with you before was in regard to your claim that people deny that criminal acts based on race and other hate issues exist. Now your claim is that people deny and minimize the truth of effects these actions cause. That is a huge statement blanketing a very broad spectrum of issues. I have not been involved in many discussions regarding the effects these issues have on people. I do know I was personally instrumental in introducing legislation designed to categorize these actions as crimes resulting in punishments similar to those handed down to people in violation of mental abuse laws or domestic violence laws. It is being reviewed in some areas of the USA currently to see if this resolution will have a desirable result.

Those groups I believe were founded by the ignorant is a statement that in my opinion is inclusive of hate based feelings. I think a person who hates another person based on the color of their skin is ignorant and their justification for hatred based on skin color has no foundation. In other words, to hate is simply ignorance. We all breathe the same air and, bleed the same blood. I find men and women of all races attractive and ugly, fat and skinny, tall and short, smart and stupid, charismatic and not charismatic, athletic and not athletic, nerdy and not nerdy, cool and not cool, funny and not funny, and so on. So a person who hates based on skin color in my opinion is simply ignorant.
worldtodd, Feb 15, 2009 @ 10:36

[quote]



Ahem...:Whistling:



Second, just because"30 percent of Swiss men marry foreigners" if doesn't necessarily follow that some part of the other 70percent, some part of whom belong to the SVP, don't hold racist and xenophobic beliefs against foreign women...And even if that were the case, the SVP is not only made up of men!

[/quote]



True, but the demographic of the SVP makes this whole thing very unlikely.

The SVP is actually two parties. There's the neo-liberal-economic wing (low taxes, low presence of the state in the economy etc.) and there's the nationalistic right-wing side with all the silly posters.

Most of what the right wing fights, the neo-liberal wing finds actually good for their companies ;-) These people are either company-owners or highly paid specialists (most likely with family). It's extremely unlikely that somebody from this group would actually commit such a crime.

And the right-wingers - well, they are too old for this kind of action anyway. And they're also the reason most radical young people are not interested in the SVP. Too many old men at the meetings. Also, the right-wingers more often live in the country-side, outside big cities (where ironically the "problem" with foreigners is usually non-existing)

;-)



OK, that all doesn't mean it's impossible to happen in the way the girl actually described it. But it had all the classic ingredients of a hoax and under these circumstances, I would opt for "hoax" any day.



If you're interested, there's a book called "Die Mitte des Volkes" about the demographic of the SVP. I only read some excerpts published in 20min, though.



BTW, just for the record: I do know for a fact that there is a certain amount of racist Swiss people. I don't deny that. They're racism is more subtle, though. I work in a quarter of Zurich where almost all of the orthodox Jews live and two (now ex-) employees used to make more or less openly fun of them.

This latent anti-semtism really disturbs me (even though or maybe even more so because I'm not Jewish and from Germany...)







rainer_d, Feb 15, 2009 @ 15:06

to WorldTodd:  yes, I am concerned both about racist, anti-semitic, and xenophobic or any  other hate-based crimes as well as their effects... There is absolutely no contradiction there.  And yes, that is a broad and over-arching discussion that has many aspects.  This is a discussion on an internet forum. 

Of course, if I were drafting legislation, which I have done in the past (although not on these issues I would have to be much more precise in my language. I would be very interested  in seeing the text of your legislation, whether it applies to the state and/or federal level. 

I think also perhaps some people don't understand why minorities joke so much about racism.  It helps to laugh to keep from crying.  And I will tell you that black comedians can be much, much harsher on blacks who "cry wolf" regarding racism than any white person could be. 

However, it's a myth to believe that anyone is making a "martyr" out of some good 'ol boy in the backwoods of Alabama.  Racism is alive and well in boardrooms as well as in the backwoods.  Just listen to that famous oxy-contin-abusing Republican, Rush Limbaugh, who makes a damn good living out of it. 

That said, I think most Swiss are fairly cool and like most people just want to get on with their lives...

to Rainer:  Yes, now I understand what you are driving at about the SVP/UDC.  I agree that they are not a party with very strong representation amongst younger people.  And there is definitely a split that appeared very clearly with the defeat of Blocher, the election of Widmer-Schlumpf and Schmidt's refusal to resign earlier on.  We'll see how effective Uli Mauer is in the coming years..

Speaking of hoaxes, I just yesterday read a strange story involving a senior police official in Passau, Germany.  He said he was stabbed in the chest by a neo-nazi.  It turns out that the knife came from his own house...no one really knows what happened at this point.  

One of the frustrating things about the reporting was that the most extensive articles were in the Swiss German newspapers but the Swiss Romande papers only carried truncated versions of the incident.  I understand that one reason for this was that the story was spinning out of control around the world but especially so in Brazil.  There was a firestorm in the Brazilian press over the issue in the first 72 hours.  The New York Times even carried the story but after several hours, the story was taken off their website.

Thanks for the reference on the book on the SVP/UDC. I will check to see whether I can find a copy in French or English  as my German is nicht so gut...
Translator, Feb 15, 2009 @ 20:18

[quote]

to Rainer:



Speaking of hoaxes, I just yesterday read a strange story involving a senior police official in Passau, Germany. He said he was stabbed in the chest by a neo-nazi. It turns out that the knife came from his own house...no one really knows what happened at this point.

[/quote]



Yes, the situation is apparently not as easy as it looked when the whole thing started.

You could google-translate this article:

http://www.welt.de/politik/article3185040/Mannichl-Attentat-wohl-kein-familiaerer-Hintergrund.html

which seems to sum-up the current state of affairs quite good.

Hm. Now that I'm thinking about it, you could go straigt to this NYT article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/12/world/europe/12passau.html?_r=1

You just have to know what to search for in Google-News....





[quote]

One of the frustrating things about the reporting was that the most extensive articles were in the Swiss German newspapers but the Swiss Romande papers only carried truncated versions of the incident. I understand that one reason for this was that the story was spinning out of controlaround the world but especially soin Brazil. There was a firestorm in the Brazilian press over the issue in the first 72 hours. The New York Times even carried the story but after several hours, the story was taken off their website.

[/quote]



The media is just too prepared to jump the gun - and later quitely retract...

We're in the 21st century, after all, and this is the age of the attention economy.





[quote]

Thanks for the reference on the book on the SVP/UDC. I will check to see whether I can find a copy in French or English as my German is nicht so gut...[/quote]



Will be difficult. Books in Switzerland only appear in very low runs. Translations rarely make sense (economocially). And the Swiss-Romand rarely read Swiss-German books anyway.

And vice-versa ;-))

The book should be useful to you even in German, because it apparently contains lot's of photos.



To find the excerpts, go to this page:

http://www.20min.ch/tools/suchen/story/13180404



The links don't work anymore, but you can search the site with its own search-engine and then it will dig up the real links for you.

Like this one:

http://www.20min.ch/tools/suchen/story/21290748



Sorry for the non-working links - but when I try to create clickable links, they just don't appear at all.
rainer_d, Feb 15, 2009 @ 21:43

 

I was not accusing you of any contradiction in your argument. I was simply pointing out that you had CHANGED your argument from a specific issue of the denial of hate based crimes even existing to a much broader claim that people are denying that the entire issue of race, anti semite, and xenophobe has effected the human experience. And I was not in any way questioning your freedom to express yourself on the subjects you presented, just pointing out that your first claim had suddenly morphed into a much broader claim of injustice.

 

I didn't draft the legislation. It was more like a situation in which I was involved in an open forum discussion with a group of federal, state, and local politicians and I suggested the concept of enacting laws where anger management type therapy is awarded for usage of racially based slurs. My concept attached this type of resolution to findings having determined that the usage of the word was aggressive in nature. I am not a politician nor the employee of one so one of the many politicians took it upon his or herself to develop legislation that would appropriately serve this concept. I do know people who I am very close to started working closely with law enforcement and political types in North Atlanta and the state of Georgia to move towards enacting this legislation under orders of a former white house resident who only recently left office under fire by the drive by media.<--the drive by media is a common reference by Rush Limbaugh, just in case you didn't know. In case you are wondering I am not really a fan of Rush Limbaugh although I will rarely listen to what he has to say. I truly didn't know that Rush Limbaugh makes his living speaking on race based issues, I always thought he was just a promoter of conservative thought.

I am glad you mention that racism is alive and well in boardrooms. I am going to play devil's advocate and mention the only case where this is one hundfred percent verifiable. The boardroom is Aol Time Warner still feeling the EFFECTS of chairperson Richard Parsons who was enlisted as an economic advisor during the recent Obama transition. I do know he recently took a post at citigroup and I am not sure if he left Time Warner. I do know the EFFECTS of Richard Parsons recently listed George Bush as one of the worst presidents in history for his failed war on terror causing a drop in approval ratings. I do know that George Bush initiated legislation to form laws to protect the development of the psyche of american minorities opening the door for criminal penalties in response to usage of racial slurs. I am guessing that The EFFECTS of Richard Parson's boardroom is that he and his friends want to categorize George Bush as one of the worst presidents because he is limiting their abilities to capitalize on an emotional issue. I cannot form an opinion on most boardrooms because the vast majority do not get involved in the subject of racism as a public forum and I don't view their boardrooms as production facilities for racial bias.

But getting back to the effects of these issues on our society I think you are bringing up a really good point. As long as we are talking about WW2 and its effects on the jews seventy years later, it would be proper to mention that it was a couple royal families who brought a large number of Africans to the new world four hundred years ago and it is the EFFECTS of their influence that is still being corrected today. They basically established the foundations of modern racism and here you are blaming Rush Limbaugh while excusing Chris Rock for medicating the population with his acceptable brand of racism. I have never heard an oncologist recommend smoking to heal lung cancer, a therapist recommend one more pummeled face so an abuse victim could finally realize their dire straits, or a drug counselor offering one more hit of drugs to a meth addict to ease their withdrawals. Across all disciplines of medicine it is always total removal is the cure. Yet you speak of the EFFECTS of certain issues and claim a resolution that offers a two way street. I believe the analysis done on Chris Rock's brand of comedy is very accurate. His comedy is an exercise in bonding resulting in subconcious alienation of his fan base. In other words his comedy makes a fan of his justify their personal human situation, good or bad,  based heavily on the color of their skin and develops attitudes more likely to be disruptive towards an integrated society than favorable towards healthy relationships.

I have had the opportunity to interact once or twice with Chris Rock via video conference. And I also have had the chance to hear analysis on his attitudes towards his brand of comedy. It would seem that even Chris Rock doesn't believe that his brand of comedy is medication for a part of society using laughter to improve their mass psyche. Chris Rock's brand of comedy lashes out in anger enabling its listeners to associate and envision themselves lashing out with him causing pain and creating cause. He feeds off of the subconcious and manipulates the minds of his supporters so they RECOGNIZE that a high profile person of some sort feels like they do. This recognition justifies subconcious feelings and opinions and his high profile presence magnifies the issue that can result in paranoias. He is imposing a dynamic on his listeners that is more apt to establish derangement than to medicate. It is an incredible manipulation of psychologies that has made him a millionaire many times over at the sacrifice of the stability of millions of fans and the slowing down of progress towards a better society for the whole of America.

 

 

 
worldtodd, Feb 15, 2009 @ 23:51

Sorry translator!! I may have been a little aggressive in my last post.
worldtodd, Feb 16, 2009 @ 07:42

No problem...it is only a discussion...
Translator, Feb 16, 2009 @ 10:41