http://www.letemps.ch/Page/Uuid/38584852-faee-11df-976b-d5208c2bd742/

Map from  Le Temps showing vote by canton

hmmm...

Not surprised but speechless.

This is the interesting statement from that BBC report

But opponents say the measures go too far. The children of immigrants do not automatically get Swiss citizenship, so the rule would mean sending some people who were born and brought up in Switzerland to countries they know nothing of.

dont break the law and theres nothing to worry about....

....until they start kicking people out for speeding....

I'm not proud...

Let's see now how they actually manage to implement this law, because that's what the parliament will have to do now.

The big question for me is always: only around half of the citizens actually went to vote - when will the other half finally wake up? Do we also need a Le Pen (or worse) before people wake up here???

As a Swiss, I am simply ashamed of what happened to today.@ Eva77...unfortunately, the sample is big enough to confirm that it is endemic in the swiss German society, no real need for the other half...

Seemingly the majority of the "in favour" votes came from the smaller Swiss German cities/towns where there is an obvious and open fear of foreign intruders (i know I lived there).

Xenophobia is rife in these places, and is not so much in Geneva / Zurich etc where there is a abundance of non nationals.

In a way I understand the Swiss's basic theme of deporting foreign criminals (robbers/assaulters/murderers/rapists etc), especially the cross border criminals (and this happens in more places than just Switzerland), why should the Swiss pay for housing them in prison? This I understand...

Clearly the issue of long term residents who committ minor crimes, and what happens then to thier families, is a bigger issue to consider, and is a complexity in law that would have confused the voters.... I suspect they kept is as a generaliastion in order to help the bill being passed.

Lets see how parliament deals with it now.

but I agree to those who raised the issue of foreigners having a permit of residence/work and paying taxes in Switzerland not to be evacuated right away, especially if they have been living here on a long run and they have threatened the society only by speeding with their cars....

... or posting under a fake identity on GLOCALS!

i dont think a simple speeding offence will validate expulsion... however excessive speeding whilst drunk and killing someone in an accident might .... since in most countries thats a manslaughter charge, and a extended prison sentence.

There is a difference between "civil law" (ie normal speeding, parking offences, etc) and "criminal law" (which involves purposeful property damage or a serious crime against another person) . Im sure the Swiss parliament will take that into account when deciding how to write and implement the rules going forwards.

the criminals I fear most are these swiss bankers who help their accomplices (among the world's biggest criminals) keep the robbed money of taxpayers. the minimum they could do for the victims of their system is to help "foreigners" integrate the society, instead of kicking their ass systematically

Being a resident in Switerland is not a "right", the Swiss people own this country and if someone doesnt behave, and starts raping people, they should be kicked out! Period!

 a non resident in the USA,  commit a serious felany (rape, armed robbery) they will kick his ass out (after serving time). Infact know of a situation where a second drunk drive offense (no one died, no accidents happened) and the person in question was kicked back to Canada.

Whats good for the goose....right?  

Why is this any different?, and what do bankers have anything to do with any of this? Primary banking institutions are affiliates (wholesalers) of the central bank, aka the STATE!

START QUOTE.

.."..I heard from a friend of mine, who is a Swiss lawyer specialized in criminal law that the Swiss prisons are full and it is really expensive to keep them up. Swiss prisons have been recognized for the high standards for a long time now......"

END QUOTE

The statistic show a staggering number of 70%!!!! foreigners, in Swiss prisons, I am asking myself how much of the other 30% are naturalized Swiss?

 Switzerland not to be evacuated right away, especially if they have been living here on a long run and they have threatened the society only by speeding with their cars....

Don't think it is going to be about speeding tickets, (why is this issue brought up anyway?) that is not a jailing offense!

Mmmm edit to my prev post:

Depends on the speed of the car! LOL

hum, "the STATE"...another tremendous name! who ever found who this guy is? where does he live? I dying of kicking his ass too, together with its wholesalers

Justin,

As non Swiss, and guests in their country, dont you think its reasonable we should respect their laws, and if we don't then surely we should be asked to leave?

If youre a guest in my house and dont respect my place then I will ask you to leave... sure you would do the same in your place.

Be glad its not Saudi or Afganistan... stoning, whipping or having your hand chopped off is far worse than being sent home I think...

A criminal is a criminal.... whats the discussion here I dont get it... its about respect as a visitor, and being a visitor deosnt give us rights above the law...

A few years back in Toronto, a Swiss national staying at the Delta Chelsea Hotel stabbed his wife to death. Would you like him back? 

What's good for the goose.....

I'm a non Swiss, but I like the "serious offenders get kicked out" law. If someone rapes or murders then I don't want him near me, whether he/she is Swiss or not Swiss.

I don't think it's xanophobic to kick out these people - they're not getting kicked out for being non Swiss, they're getting kicked out for what they did.

The risk is that the same approach creeps into less serious crimes as well, and that is a few years the definition of "serious crime" is extended to far less serious things. Let's hope that never happens. 

Depends: was the wife Swiss as well?

....er, I should probably mention that it was a murder-suicide so he was sent back in a box. Or maybe it was a bag. I hope it was biodegradable. Anyho...my point is that criminals are in every society and we should take care not to punish people who aren't...like their kids. 

personally I dont care about this vote: what I think doesnt matter. you know that I know that we know I feel good to laugh at it a bit

[quote]

hum, "the STATE"...another tremendous name! who ever found who this guy is? where does he live? I dying of kicking his ass too, together with its wholesalers[/quote]

Threatening me with bodily harm? Why am i not surprised

Yeah you do, you get all worked up about it

Yes you do care, you get all worked up about it and threaten bodily harm, this is not the Bronx, ok?

This is an example from the Lóextrait du casier judiciaire...even if you were speeding or crossing a red light you could be considered to have seriously offended the traffic....and you have not killed or robbed anyone....

Running a red light, is very serious, I dont know if this is a "kick out of Switzerland offense" but repeatedly running red lights might be, and what if someone DID get killed while speeding?  Is that a "kick out of Switzerland" offense? Or only if it was your child being killed?

I am a bit sick and tired of some people playing the race/xenofobic card, and trying to redicule this initiative by bringing in traffic offenses into the discussion.

Or maybe non Swiss criminals should live should live off the community (or even more rediculous idea) "rehabilitated" on the Swiss expense?

Tip: when posting ,.., dont use IE7, the browser freezes on me, and I try repost, , Chrome is best! 

Hey, I didn't know Swiss individuals did bad things, I though the Swiss build jails only for aesthetic reasons.,

Repatriation of criminals is not just a Swiss issue.  We have seen France give gypsies Euro 300 and free air tickets home.   And these 'deportees' are laughing all the way home, planning to return in the summer - if they come by train or car who is going to check their passports?  

But it is not always that easy to deport - in the case above it only happened because the receiving countries were in agreement.  In England a murderer of Italian parentage was freed after serving his 5 or 10 years and an attempt was made to deport him to Italy.  His lawyers managed to get this blocked because it violated his human rights as a long term resident

So whatever your political leanings do not blame Swizerland.  They are just following a European trend.

If it really is true that 70% of prisoners are foreign when foreigners make up around 10% of the population, then I think there is a strong case for repatriation.   And I am not talking traffic offences but offences which are premeditated.  Where you draw the line of what constitutes a deportable crime will always be arbitrary and any provision for long term residents would also be arbitary.  But the situation cannot be allowed to continue.

Wanting to deport criminals is not racist.  In Victorian times all hardened(?) criminals were deported to Australia.  In Russia to Siberia (including politicals).  It is just unfortunate that there appear to be no places left today where one can deport criminals except to their native country.  A home grown criminal can now stay in his own country even though nobody might want him or her there.

So I can understand the Swiss being concerned with this matter.  

Afraid this reply jumps around a bit but did not want to make it too long   

If it really is true that 70% of prisoners are foreign

Forgot to provide link

http://bazonline.ch/schweiz/standard/Haeftlinge-in-der-Schweiz-sind-zu-70-Prozent-Auslaender/story/22243843

Maybe I should not sympathise so much with the current attitude of the Swiss.  I read the article and it appears that the current figure of 70.2% foreigners in jail has not changed significantly in the last ten years, so why are the Swiss suddenly noticing this.

Probably just because of right wing politicians

As in many European countries, internet has played a major role in dissention from political correct State controlled media , as in most  EU counties journalists get largess from the State, hence promote "the State is the solution" jive.

Example:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-411846/We-biased-admit-stars-BBC-News.html

It was the day that a host of BBC executives and star presenters admitted what critics have been telling them for years: the BBC is dominated by trendy, Left-leaning liberals who are biased against Christianity and in favour of multiculturalism.


People are just fed up being told what to think, and are not afraid of demanding changes!!! 

And truth be told, you (Paul) did not even know it was 70% until I mentioned it, so it is surely not "meanstream knowledge".

If we were in the U.S., I might say, "Negro, please!"  As we are not, I will simply say, "Ahem..."

Perhaps after living here for a while you will understand what is actually going on.  I've lived here off and on since 1997, was married to a (white) Swiss and understand pretty damn well what is going on here.

In addition, I understand very well how to interpret government statistics and have actually spoken to parliamentarians -- including  members of the UDC about the issue.  I've even gone to hear former Justice member Blocher speak in Geneva. 

According to Swiss parliamentarian and lawyer, Carlo Sommaruga, white (and non-naturalized) Swiss are not convicted and imprisoned at the same rates as foreigners for the same crimes.

But hey, if you want to drink the UDC kool-aid, be my guest.  They have been running all kinds of anti-foreigner iniatives for years and w ill continue to do so until reasonable Swiss step up to the challenge and end this... Either that or  the business community will step in if the continued rightward drift is perceived to adversely affect Switzerland's external image.

This is exactly the reason why Christopher Blocher was unseated a number of years ago..

As for the speeding issue...perhaps you should read a  bit more as to why it is potentially a serious issue and could be considered as a legitimate threat to community security --

If we were in the U.S., I might say, "Negro, please!"

Lets keep the racebaiting out of the discussion shall we? I am not a US citizen nor do I care to be one!

Perhaps after living here for a while you will understand what is actually going on.  I've lived here off and on since 1997, was married to a (white) Swiss and understand pretty damn well what is going on here.

Color tagging again, Thanks for disclosing where your heads at. Anyway I have lived in Europe my whole life, but maybe the class of 1997 can school me. Always willing to learn!

According to Swiss parliamentarian and lawyer, Carlo Sommaruga, white (and non-naturalized) Swiss are not convicted and imprisoned at the same rates as foreigners for the same crimes.

You really like to tag people by skincolor dont you? Seems to me your the one obsessed by it! Not the "rightwingers". Why is that?

so what you are saying is... if a Swiss native rapes a girl he stand less of a chance of being convicted? Wow, bold statement, link (as in FACTS) please?

As for the speeding issue...perhaps you should read a  bit more as to why it is potentially a serious issue and could be considered as a legitimate threat to community security --

Already happened, the facts! In this case the immigrant (from Bosnie) in question, he killed a women and a child while DUI. (Looking for that link as I love facts)

But hey!! It seems the Canadians have the same law the Swiss are wanting, I guess they are racist too right?

But Erika's story doesn't end there. There's an ugly twist to the tale: Mohamed should not have been in Canada to kidnap and sexually assault Erika.

Mohamed was a refugee and he'd been convicted twice before - including an earlier sexual assault. By law, Mohamed should have been ordered deported, but it seems that Canada Immigration just overlooked him.

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/WFive/20060303/WFIVE_immigration_060303/

True I did not know but I had wondered.   Had asked the question of a few people (Swiss) who did not know or care.  Did not bother to research the figure, so maybe I had better just shut up and go to bed

@ jacob

"You really like to tag people by skincolor dont you? Seems to me your the one obsessed by it! Not the "rightwingers". Why is that?

so what you are saying is... if a Swiss native rapes a girl he stand less of a chance of being convicted? Wow, bold statement, link (as in FACTS) please?"

Perhaps you did not read carefully enough the preceeding statement.  Let me make it clear for you.  In a conversation I had several years ago with Swiss parliamentarian Carlo Sommaruga, he (not I) said that white Swiss are much less likely to be convicted and imprisoned than non-white foreigners.  Feel free to contact this Swiss parliamentarian for further info.

Second, I have always maintained that this UDC campaign is both racist and xenophobic.  The two go together hand-in-hand.

Third, obviously you are entirely lacking in a sense of humor.  Which is exactly why I said, if we were living in the U.S.

I had no idea it might be possible to "race-bait" another person whose skin color is pretty much the same color as mine.  Then again, perhaps I made a critical mistake in considering you "black."  Well, exxcuse the hell out of me!

Don't worry, we Americans are entirely happy for you to reside in Europe for the rest of your life, where every one is color-blind, racism and xenophobia don't exist and the Daily (Hate) Mail is considered as a reputable source of news.

And by the way, some of my best friends are white... as well as all other colors of the rainbow.  Right, Charlie?

Btw, Charlie, that was a joke... we've only just met... I've other friends (of all races, creeds, and colors) to attest to my multicultural, multinational friendliness...but I always like to have a  tough, kick-ass, hard-drinking, piss-taking Irish man on my side...

 In a conversation I had several years ago with Swiss parliamentarian Carlo Sommaruga, he (not I) said that white Swiss are much less likely to be convicted and imprisoned than non-white foreigners.

Hearsay is not fact. Doesnt work that way!

Second, I have always maintained that this UDC campaign is both racist and xenophobic.  The two go together hand-in-hand.

True, and the  KKK was founded by Democrats. So whats your point?

Third, obviously you are entirely lacking in a sense of humor. 

You race fettish leaves a nasty taste in my mouth. Makes it hard for me to smile.

I had no idea it might be possible to "race-bait" another person whose skin color is pretty much the same color as mine. 

Yawn, the color fettish never stops, does it? Btw Oprah Winfrey tries to pull the same race baiting crap on Tiger Woods every time she gets! So you wouldnt be the first liberal trying that trick!

Europe ..[SNIP]... where every one is color-blind, racism and xenophobia don't exist and the Daily (Hate) Mail is considered as a reputable source of news.

Why do liberals like you LOVE to live in the most redneck guntotin state(Switserland) of Europe? Must be hell here enduring all these (coughf) neonazis, right?

 I've other friends (of all races, creeds, and colors) to attest to my multicultural, multinational friendliness...

Funny how liberals index their friends by race, as an attest to their color/ethnic blindness!

Now thats funny))

Wow.  By the way, I am not a liberal, I am a radical. And the Swiss Constitution provides for freedom of speech for everyone, not just citizen.  I don't love it here, but I live here and I have every right to express my opinion.  And I will do so when I am interviewed for my Swiss citizenship.     

I have done my research by reviewing statistics, interviewing parliamentarians and analyzing articles. My experience in Switzerland is based upon numerous years as a diplomat and as an individual who has made every effort to integrate herself into Geneva society.

Many Swiss across this country, particularly in the cantons of Swiss romande roundly rejected this vote, just as many of these same citizens voted against the anti-minaret initiative.  There is a clear division in the attitudes of the citizens of the regions on these initiatives.  Feel free to read the comments of our Swiss friends on this thread and others.

As for trying to convey irony about my "multicultural/multinational/multiethnic"  friends list, forget it.  It is obviously lost here.

If I were race-baiting you, I'd have called you an Uncle Tom, but I am not race-baiting you.  Because at the end of the day, if the neo-nazis came for you, I would still come to your assistance...

By the way, others, Swiss citizens, among them, have quoted facts and statistics which you may wish to review on previous threads.  And I will certainly post more as I get the time...

Wow.  By the way, I am not a liberal, I am a radical.

I was trying to be slightly positive, but if you want to call yourself "hardcore" go ahead!

And the Swiss Constitution provides for freedom of speech for everyone, not just citizen.

Who in these here chat is trying to take your rights away? Tell me!

If I were race-baiting you, I'd have called you an Uncle Tom, but I am not race-baiting you. 

I was really clocking for that word to surface, LOL, you took your sweet time!

Because at the end of the day, if the neo-nazis came for you, I would still come to your assistance...

Race baite nr 4, this must be a build in knee jurk reflex!  Just love the Godwin argumentation aswell, everyone who is not  "radical" leftist, is a xenofoob nazi. Standard MO to try to name and shame people doesnt work as it used to, does it?

By the way, others, Swiss citizens, among them, have quoted facts and statistics which you may wish to review on previous threads.

Thats not how it works, if you make a statement, YOU provide the facts and evidence (not hear say). It is not my job to do your homework! 

1)  Who says the campaign is racist?

Not only me and many Swiss, but also the Swiss Federal Commission Against Racism

“Ivan S., rapist and soon Swiss ?”  The posters of this type suggest that the relevant [federal] commissions propose according naturalization to criminals. In this manner, the posters seek to mislead the population and defame the responsible authorities.

The current cantonal practices of expelling [foreign] criminals prove that current legislation is adequate.  Foreign criminals are expelled (source: Federal Commission for questions of migration (CFM), titled “Revoi. Expulsion.”).  An automatic expulsion without a review of whether the measure is proportional – as demanded by the authors of the initiative – goes against the principles of the current Swiss federal law and against human rights.  The Commission criticizes the fact that the campaign completely ignores these principles and privileges their repression and that the campaign ignores international law as if it does not apply to Switzerland.  The counter-proposal, on the contrary, takes into account the gravity of the act committed and respects the obligations of international law.

The systematic explusion demanded by the initiative could only be applied to those from countries outside of the European Union.  These persons would be, consequently, increasingly marginalized in the judicial context, and could even more easily subjected to xenophobia and racism.  The campaign stirs up sentiments of xenophobia amongst the Swiss population and endangers the peaceful co-existence between different groups of the population.

Georg Kreis, président de la CFR, tél. 061 281 23 25 ou 061 317 97 67,
courriel: [email protected];
Sabine Simkhovitch-Dreyfus, vice-présidente de la CFR, tél. 078 707 27 67,
courriel: [email protected];
Doris Angst, directrice de la CFR, tél. 031 324 12 83, courriel:
[email protected].

Translation :  v.mims

Who says the campaign is racist?

Here it comes, this will be good...

...Not only me...

Who are you?

..., but also the Swiss Federal Commission Against Racism...

Nothing better then government sanctioned morality! 

Hahaha, now, that is actually funny...

By the way, the only person I would ever call an Uncle Tom is the  US Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas....

By the way, the only person I would ever call an Uncle Tom is the  US Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas....

Thomas is ok

Foreigners arguing about Swiss politics with each other online between the hours of 2200pm and 0421am is the "new killing it"....

Had I been awake it would have been a "two bowl popcorn night"....

I'd say youre both radicals... just different ends of the same rainbow...as we all are.

I don't remember if anyone has posted the full initiative or not, but here it follows in any case.

L'initiative populaire a la teneur suivante:

I

La Constitution fédérale du 18 avril 1999 est modifiée comme suit:

Art. 121, al. 3 à 6 (nouveaux)

3 Ils (les étrangers) sont privés de leur titre de séjour, indépendamment de leur statut, et de tous leurs droits à séjourner en Suisse:

s'ils ont été condamnés par un jugement entré en force pour meurtre, viol, ou tout autre délit sexuel grave, pour un acte de violence d'une autre nature tel que le brigandage, la traite d'êtres humains, le trafic de drogue ou l'effraction; ou

s'ils ont perçu abusivement des prestations des assurances sociales ou de l'aide sociale.

4 Le législateur précise les faits constitutifs des infractions visées à l'al. 3. Il peut les compléter par d'autres faits constitutifs.

5 Les étrangers qui, en vertu des al. 3 et 4, sont privés de leur titre de séjour et de tous leurs droits à séjourner en Suisse doivent être expulsés du pays par les autorités compétentes et frappés d'une interdiction d'entrer sur le territoire allant de 5 à 15 ans. En cas de récidive, l'interdiction d'entrer sur le territoire sera fixée à 20 ans.

6 Les étrangers qui contreviennent à l'interdiction d'entrer sur le territoire ou qui y entrent illégalement de quelque manière que ce soit sont punissables. Le législateur édicte les dispositions correspondantes.

II

Les dispositions transitoires de la Constitution fédérale sont modifiées comme suit:

Art. 197, ch. 8 (nouveau)

8. Disposition transitoire ad art. 121

(Séjour et établissement des étrangers)

Dans les cinq années qui suivent l'acceptation par le peuple et par les cantons de l'art. 121, al. 3 à 6, le législateur définit les faits constitutifs des infractions en vertu de l'art. 121, al. 3, il les complète et il édicte les dispositions pénales relatives à l'entrée illégale sur le territoire visée à l'art. 121, al. 6.

i totally agree

i think there is a more fundamental question here. are all people equal in front of the law? does this mean that a crime committed by a swiss is punished differently to a crime committed by a  non-swiss.?

does this ammendment mean that being a "guest" in this country makes you less equal in the eyes of the law to a swiss? ( a crime committed by a swiss will not require banishment after their jail sentence )

does this assume that after the jail sentence a swiss will re enter society and behave within the law, while a non swiss will not? and therefore they must be forced to leave ( 5-15 yrs )

i think there is scope for debate, what is your opinion in this context?

"...i think there is a more fundamental question here. are all people equal in front of the law?..."

No, non Swiss dont have the same rights as Swiss, otherwise not allowing non Swiss to vote would be unethical.

 If there is no legal distinction between non Swiss and Swiss, then technicly there would be no such thing as " the state of Switzerland".

This reasoning can be extended to any souvereign state.

I am not a radical, and certainly not a member of the rainbow coalition. LOL

1 All activities of the state shall be based on and limited by law.

2 State activities must be conducted in the public interest and be proportionate to the ends sought.

3 State institutions and private persons shall act in good faith.

4 The Confederation and the Cantons shall respect international law.

English is not an official language of the Swiss Confederation. This translation is provided for information purposes only and has no legal force.

http://www.admin.ch/ch/e/rs/101/a5.html

1 Everyone shall be equal before the law.

2 No one may be discriminated against, in particular on grounds of origin, race, gender, age, language, social position, way of life, religious, ideological, or political convictions, or because of a physical, mental or psychological disability.

3 Men and women shall have equal rights. The law shall ensure their equality, both in law and in practice, most particularly in the family, in education, and in the workplace. Men and women shall have the right to equal pay for work of equal value.

4 The law shall provide for the elimination of inequalities that affect persons with disabilities.

English is not an official language of the Swiss Confederation. This translation is provided for information purposes only and has no legal force.

http://www.admin.ch/ch/e/rs/101/a8.html

Additionally...  from the same source pages..

1 Anyone who is a citizen of a commune and of the Canton to which that commune belongs is a Swiss citizen.

2 No one shall be given preferential treatment or suffer prejudice because of their citizenship. The foregoing does not apply to regulations on political rights in citizens’ communes and corporations or to participation in the assets thereof, unless cantonal legislation provides otherwise.

English is not an official language of the Swiss Confederation. This translation is provided for information purposes only and has no legal force.

Scrap article 37.2, problem solved

"

"...i think there is a more fundamental question here. are all people equal in front of the law?..."

No, non Swiss dont have the same rights as Swiss, otherwise not allowing non Swiss to vote would be unethical.

so not allowing swiss women the right to vote was........ethical?  because they were swiss, but women!

Why are you knocking the Swiss?   If there had not been a suffragette campaign in the UK woman would have received the vote much later.  Not sure what the case was in the USA but I presume there was also a period when only men could vote.  

In which countries can foreign residents vote? There are probably some.

Voting in somebody else's country has nothing to do with equality before the law.

Regarding your previous thread I touched on this earlier.  You cannot banish  a Swiss from Switzerland unless another country is willing to accept.  Foreigners who commit crimes run the risk of being sent home.   If it tuirns out that 'home' is not that nice then maybe, just maybe, that person should have shown gratitude towards his adopted country  

Women's suffrage:

1893 -- New Zealand

1920 -- United States

1928-- United  Kingdom

1971 --Switzerland

Don't forget...

Soviet Union - 1917
Austria - 1918
Germany - 1919

http://history-switzerland.geschichte-schweiz.ch/chronology-womens-right-vote-switzerland.html

In comparison to other places us brit's were way behind this is why we love Switzerland, it's always good to have somewhere that makes us look good.

Plus here's the really good snippet from that statement:

While the majority of cantons introduced women's right to vote shortly before or shortly after the confederation did in 1971, two conservative half-cantons in eastern Switzerland, Appenzell Ausserrhoden and Appenzell Innerrhoden refused to do so for a long time. During the 1980's pressure of public opinion increased. The men of Appenzell Ausserrhoden thought it might be better to change their laws themselves and they did so in 1989. But in Appenzell Innerrhoden nothing changed.

I am happy to say the Vaud introduced women's right to vote in a referendum on cantonal and local level in Feb 1959, Geneva followed suit in 1960.

So getting back on topic - If you want to met friendly forward thinking people in Switzerland come to the French speaking part. I want to say now I am not knocking Swiss people in that comment, it seems that a lot of People (including the ex pats) in the German speaking areas like Zurich have some strange ideas about being in a modern society within Europe. 

If I am correct AI was forced by the federal authorities to adapt in 1990

yep - 5 points!

I found out about Appenzell Ausserrhoden and Appenzell Innerrhoden by talking to a swiss guy last night in all the snow. Well I say Swiss he is half Swiss due to an English mother and finds himself being referred to as "Swiss-ish".

It makes me remember living in the UK and being told that you had to be able to trace your family back 3 generations in Cornwall to be considered Cornish. Thank god I lived in Devon and as long as you were born there and could say oh ar! that was enough for you to be Devonshire.

Which raises one of the questions regarding this new law - when are you considered Swiss? It's late and I will post about this tomorrow.

BTW, the US only lowered the voting age for both genders from 21 to 18 in 1971 by constitutional amendment because of the Vietnam War. There was a strong legal and ethical argument made that the  US federal government should not be allowed to force into military service those citizens without voting rights. 

Of course the fact that US blacks did not have effective federal enforcement of their voting rights until the late 1960s did not stop the feds from sending blacks overseas by the tens of thousands to fight fascism here in Europe. 

My father told me it was much easier to talk to German POWs he met in Nurenberg than his fellow US southern white soldiers.  And so it goes...

This is Switzerland, not Alabama! 

The Swiss have never invaded other countries or traded in slaves, so because they did none of this, they are racist? Typical leftist idiocy!

Regarding Switzerland's role in the international  slave trade....

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/968715/posts

Switzerland played key role in the slave trade

nzzonline ^ | 22/08/03 | Vanda Janka

Posted on Friday, August 22, 2003 6:47:37 PM by Jakarta ex-pat

As Unesco marks the International Day for the Remembrance of the Slave Trade and its Abolition, history professor Hans Fässler told swissinfo it is time Switzerland faced up to its past.

 Being a landlocked country did not stop Switzerland from playing its part in the transatlantic slave trade triangle, linking West Africa, America and Europe between the 16th and 19th centuries.

 Swiss banks, for example, owned as much as a third of the Compagnie des Indes, a French company that held a monopoly over the West African slave trade, while trading houses financed and did business with slave traders.

Now that slavery has been internationally recognised as a crime against humanity, Fässler says Switzerland should take a fresh look at its past.

swissinfo: How do you explain the international community’s increasing interest in the African slave trade?

Hans Fässler: These international remembrance days reflect above all the willingness of countries, including Switzerland, to shed light on their past. These days there are many calls for reflection but also for an analysis of the consequences of slavery on today’s world.

 We had to wait for the end of the Cold War before nations were ready to re-examine that chapter of history. Beforehand, the subject was completely taboo and those who brought the subject up were considered enemies of the state.

 But the repercussions of colonisation and the slave trade are too important to be ignored. So much so that the global conference against racism in Durban in 2001 reopened the debate by recognising the transatlantic slave trade as a crime against humanity.

 swissinfo: What concrete steps has Switzerland taken towards shedding some light on this chapter of its history?

H.F.: In the political arena, it’s an issue that still needs to advance.

But in the academic sphere, Switzerland’s role is coming under increasing scrutiny. Basel is trying to organise an international conference on the matter, while a book on Switzerland’s participation in the slave trade will be published shortly.

swissinfo: Why is this issue so important in your opinion?

H.F.: Like all western countries, Switzerland must answer questions over the source of its wealth.

 Following the legal cases involving victims of the Nazi and Apartheid regimes, Switzerland must now look at this other chapter of its history.

swissinfo: So, is it a case of waiting for new compensation claims?

H.F.: Certain groups are looking into it. The main countries involved in the African slave trade are asking that western countries recognise their responsibilities.

 For my part, I believe that Europe has an obligation to right its wrongs, but how it will do so still has to be decided. It could do so through symbolic acts, such as setting up new channels of cooperation with African countries, or by paying what they’re owed through development aid.

I think the point has been lost here. Digging up dirt on Switzerland is child's play. Similar pseudo-historical analysis can be made on any country. Jacob - I would add an asterisk to the phrase about invasion because before Napoleon's day Switzerland was a country of mercenaries who colluded with neighboring powerhouses to invade Lombardy on several occasions amongst other places.

We had a similar amount of outrage about minarets back in they day when they were banned - and that lasted for what a few weeks max? I haven't heard anything for months about that issue.

One point I liked in the beggining is that only half the population voted (which isn't bad, considering that turnout is usually closer to a third, and especially considering that in most countries half of the voters voting is considered really good). Clearly if people took these votes seriously (difficult, considering the sheer quantity of votes both in quantity and frequency) there'd be a better chance at not getting these kinds of laws passed.

One important thing to note is that if people start seeing their non-naturalised swiss born and raised kids deported back to bumblef*ck they have the legal right to get 10'000? 20'000? (not sure) signatures and take the whole thing back to the polls. Much like with Lepen, the Swiss need a wake up call, and if they don't "wake up" in relation to this past weekend's vote.. well.. then they don't really care and mostly agree with what's being done, or at least don't disagree enough to do something about it.

One MAJOR difference between the above procedure and most countries is that we have DIRECT democracy - if people want something put in place or overturned, they start a referendum. We don't have to rely on the agenda's of excessively powerful political parties as is the case in most of the countries cited in the above posts. Don't blame the UDC - they, like nightmares and boogey monsters, only exist because we make them exist. If enough people want a change - it will come (I refer you back to the point about Blocher above)

@Chris

So getting back on topic - If you want to met friendly forward thinking people in Switzerland come to the French speaking part. I want to say now I am not knocking Swiss people in that comment, it seems that a lot of People (including the ex pats) in the German speaking areas like Zurich have some strange ideas about being in a modern society within Europe. 

But that is exactly what you are doing! Knocking the Swiss. In fact most of the time all you seem to do is knock the Swiss and the UK and talk about Spain whilst looking through your rose tinted spectacles!

Just because the German speaking part of Switzerland was more in favour of this initiative does not by default make them unfriendly, racist or xenophobic. You have been in this country for a very small amount of time yet you feel qualified to make statements that would suggest that Swiss Germans are unfriendly!! It's not that simple. Not everything is so (if you pardon the pun) Black and White.

You make strange comments about Cornwall and how you had to be at able to trace your family roots back at least 3 generations before you were considered Cornish! And so what! What's the big deal? That doesn't make the Cornish racist or xenophobic and it certainly doesn't make the UK, in general, racist or xenophobic. You don't need to be considered Swiss or Cornish or anything else other than who you actually are, in order to be welcomed and be considered part of a community. 

Gleb..

Thanks for your comments and observations...

My only point in noting Switzerland's role in the international slave trade was to refute a previous poster's ahistorical statement.  And as you noted, the Swiss had a long tradition of supplying mercenaries to various European nations.

That  said, as in many political systems, things don't change without some stress on society.  In the case of Blocher, it was clear to many in the political-economic power structure that his politics were detrimental  to Switzerland's external image.  I saw a TSR documentary a couple years ago  on how the political strategy was put together to remove him from the 7 cabinet ministers' race.

In addition, I did see an article in swissinfo recently about continuing efforts to overturn the minaret ban.

The Swiss Constitution makes very clear statements about equal justice under the law -- for everyone --  as  well as on compliance with international law. 

The website www.cequeleudcvouscache.ch does a great job at explaining the distortions of the recent UDC  campaign.  However, as you rightly noted, until more Swiss go to the polls to defeat these propositions soundly, these debates will continue...

Finally, I  think the Swiss government could have done a much better job at explaining how current law works and that hundreds of "foreign criminals" are deported each year, all within the framework of the constitution's due process procedures.

As for History: History is any developed intelligent country's greatest teacher - Basically we remember the mistakes of the past to not repeat them in the future.

The problem is people are frequently not paying any attention.

As for the problem with this campaign here are a few points:

1 - Most importantly this type of politics is changing Switzerland's image in the world. As most of the international agencies are based here it has the image of the home of fair play, regardless of it's past indiscretions (however recent). This doesn't just tarnish Switzerland it tarnishes those organisations associated with the country.  

2 - While a Country should (and does) have the right to expel foreigners that break the law on their soil, due process exists to stop the punishment going to far. Here an interesting question for you when do you really become Swiss? Due to Switzerland having a large immigrant population, and not giving Swiss nationality at birth (the same goes for most countries) this means that many children now adults were born, raised, educated and hold the same social values as the Swiss. I know people of 40+ like this here in the Vaud. They are Swiss in every way except their paperwork, so not only would Switzerland be deporting them to a Country they don't know but also to a country that has no responsibility for how they act - After all all their social teaching has been by the Swiss. You ask why didn't they change their nationality - Many people feel proud of where they come from - others just can't be bothered as once they have Permit C they are supposed to be treated just the same. Children of these people of course are stuck like this until they reach they age when they can change their nationality - And then just like their parents they don't change their nationality.

3 - The imagery of the campaign said "Hey it's OK to judge people by skin colour, religion or name". None of the names on the posters supporting the campaign were traditionally European i.e. the problem is not with Europeans but rather its the Arabs, Blacks, Russian, and Asians that are breaking the law. A black sheep does mean they person who brings shame on the others, but it also can be read as a colour issue i.e. People who have a non Caucasian skin colour are the ones who break the law. This idea leads to the idea that racist behaviour is OK. I already know one person of mixed race who has had "Mouton Noir" shouted at him and then was physically attacked (Sunday). Incidentally he was born, breed and educated here, his friends are Swiss and so were his attackers.

Imagine after having been attacked that "Bob" (not his real name), it is decided that he incited the fray by the attending police officer, because publicity tells him that Coloured people commit crime, and arrests him (this didn't happen but it was close, the security company that broke it up placed "Bob" outside it the cold with a cut bleeding nose, without medical attention, while they dealt with the offenders in the warm indoors - naturally a complaint has been made). He then is convicted of a violent crime and deported to a country he has only visited on holiday, who didn't educate him and has no responsibility for his behaviour, even in this case when he was really the victim.

Us "liberals" as you call us aren't defending criminals - Commit a crime get sent home - however please define home. The UDC says its the place stated on your passport. The UDC says Switzerland shouldn't support "foreign" criminals - but if the criminal was born, breed, and socially educated here why should the country where his only his parents and paperwork comes from, support somebody who is essentially a Swiss criminal. Us "liberals" are against the idea that people are bad because of their skin colour, religion or name. Lets face it under those ideas Barack Hussein Obama would in problems - He's is black and has ties to the Muslim world (He described his father as "raised a Muslim" source wikipedia so not to be consider a fact) and lets face has a funny name.

The funny thing is this sort of idea was the subject of humour in Britain years ago, and yet is still a problem in the UK, anybody remember "Winston Kadogo" on Not the Nine O'clock news? He was supposedly arrested for:

loitering with intent to use a pedestrian crossing
smelling of foreign food
urinating in a public convenience
coughing without due care and attention
looking at me in a funny way
walking on the cracks in the pavement
walking in a loud shirt in a built-up area during the hours of darkness
walking around with an offensive wife
… and, of course, the possession of curly black hair and thick lips.

The above were jokes however the below (according to this webpage about ASBO's in the UK) aren't.

for entering a youth club
carrying condoms
giving soup to the homeless
visiting you grandmother
using the word ‘grass’
showing your tattoos
wearing a balaclava or hooded top
entering a car park
being sarcastic to your neighbours
not preventing your pigs from escaping
travelling on the top deck of buses
owning a stereo, radio or television
being seen at a window in you home wearing only your underwear

In the UK's defence we don't just apply the above to "foreigners" but to anybody poor...

So to wrap up - I am PRO sending criminals home - just define where home is! I am against the idea of just because someone is different to you doesn't mean they are a criminal - and likewise just because somebody is the same as you doesn't mean they are innocent - 3 names for you to consider.

@ Colette D.

To be honest I stuck the comment in there to push buttons, nothing more.

Actually Zurich and Bern as citys voted NO to the UDC proposal. At the cantonal level they voted YES.

The truth is the vote was so close 53% for 47% against - and only 52% voted.

Seriously 99% of all Swiss I have meet are wonderful people, however on a world view - i.e. how the world views the country - people will see the results and think that the Swiss German part has a problem.

The Swiss Germans I have known have been very nice people, but this made international press and the opinion of Switzerland will be affected. I have the benefit of being here and seeing that it is not a racist country, others hearing about this vote outside Switzerland don't.

I remember what I thought when I saw the results for the Minaret vote.

As for Spain - I have experienced open hostility in Spain for being English (we have a bad rep in Spain) however due to learning to speak Spanish (now re-learning French) I was generally accepted.

As for Cornwall I am from Devon, and to be honest that comment (however true) was a bit off - I apologise to all Cornish people but remind you that the best thing about Cornwall is you have to go through Devon to get there :)

Colette a bit like "when are you considered Swiss?" how long do I have to live here before expressing an opinion?  Not all posts are intelligent - even mine will be stupid once in a while, but this is a forum.

I don't ever expect to be considered Swiss (or Cornish) but if I am to integrate into the Swiss community I should be able to express an opinion and then I should have the decency to listen or read the response, and of course modify my opinions due to the responses I get.

As for Spain... I have to support it, no one else does :)

What I really  want to know about Swiss-German culture is why are they always playing that card game, Jass, when I turn to the Swiss-German channels  on tv?

Is it fun? Is there a lot of drinking and betting?  Thanks for any explanation...

You started the color tagging with your quote on the Bronx.  As a white American woman.. no one would ever have said to me "This isn't the Bronx".. no matter what kind of comment I made.  If I would have said I would like to kick the state's ass the comment would be.. go back in your corner silly girl.  Instead because the person who made the comment was a black male you incinuate that he must be a gangbanger from the "bronx"  and we are glad you are not American.  As far as it appears from these posts.  You are right where you belong.

I always laugh when I hear someone say "this is not the Bronx!" 

While parts of the Bronx (New York) are exceedingly poor, the Bronx also contains the most celebrated science high school in the world.  The Bronx High School of Science has graduated 7 Nobel laureates in physics. That's more than the entire nation of Switzerland.

Not to mention producing Grandmaster Flash, Afrikabambata and others...

I always laugh when someone uses an article from The Daily Mail as a basis of their argument! The Daily Mail!! 

I always laugh when someone argues wth me... dont they know that arguing with idiots is pointless?

Now please the Daily Mail is fine non biased newspaper!
However I personal feel the Sun is a more reputable source.

We have a " Le Pen " in Switzerland his name is Christophe BLOCHER, and also Oskar Freysinger ...

Lighten up guys. Don't let's get hung up on the S-bends of the unique CH political process which is the way that CH keeps this whole weird amalgame from falling apart. The federal kommon senz maschine will reduce all this to a totally acceptable mush by the time it's finished.

And btw, Bronx is 4 wimpz.  Paquis rulz.

And German Swiss, like Romands, are some of the most hilarious likeable people on earth. If you're not getting that signal, let me know and we'll organize a disovery to deepest CH.

Oh definitely much more reputable and it's a fine source of useful gossip!

[quote]Jacob - I would add an asterisk to the phrase about invasion because before Napoleon's day Switzerland was a country of mercenaries who colluded with neighboring powerhouses to invade Lombardy on several occasions amongst other places.[/quote]

Thats a stretch, Yup and the Dutch gladly used them to fight for their freedom during the Dutch independance war 1568-1648. Individuals letting them being payed by the highest bidder for excellent services is not  bad thing at all. An honest trade was made here, nothing was stolen!

@Lexxilent...You started the color tagging with your quote on the Bronx. 

I think your liberal brain has currupted your reading comprehension:

To prove the perversion and failed attampt at smokeblowing and newspeak  lets look at the facts:

MY QUOTE:....yes you do care, you get all worked up about it and threaten bodily harm, this is not the Bronx, ok?...

"the Bronx" reference has nothing to do with your white liberal race fettish, but the fact that your ethnic pet was threatening to look me up and kill me, because we had a disagreement on the role of the State in the economics arena

Now I understand many socialist (or its usefull idiots) , are not afraid of a little genocide and ideological purging now and then, so you would take the treat of violance as something "business as usual".

Now it is interesting to notice you emotionally connect "the Bronx" with  colored people. Its very easy to see where your heads at!

With leftist it is and always will be about race! With "richtwingers" like me, it will and always will be about behavior of the individual and personal accountability. No try the "it beez whitey fault" somewhere else, it is getting freakin old!

Now read this... after the foreigners UDC wants to ban handicaped people from "normal schools"!

http://www.lematin.ch/actu/suisse/handicapes-prives-ecole-343350

Chris,

....this means that many children now adults were born, raised, educated and hold the same social values as the Swiss.....

Thats not true, to become Swiss you have to recide at least 12 years in the country, but the time spent during the age between 10 and 18 count double, so people BORN is Switzerland stay foreigners...BY CHOICE!

Wow, never knew the Swiss were thet guilty, I guess the Polish selling linnen to the English , Spanish, Portugese and Dutch build shipbuilders are guilty of  slavetrading too.

Saudi Arabia ended slavery in 1964 (officially), I never hear anything from Liberals about how SA should pay up!

Whay is that? Because libs know the Arabs would pretty much say "f off"

Did the voters take money into account in this case? I'm no lawyer, but it seems to me that tax evasion is also considered a serious crime and would lead to automatic expulsion? And I assume Swiss wouldn't want dirty money in their banks, would they, so the money should be also expelled from the Swiss banking system :)

On the other hand, just a few days ago one of the top 5 richest Swiss residents had to pay CHF 10M to get the charges against him dropped:

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/Payment_closes_case_against_wealthy_investors.html?cid=28574766

So, apparently, there is still a way to get around the expulsion if you are rich enough.  It looks like they don’t actually want criminals expelled; they just want to get rid of poor and annoying people :)

Ah, and by the way, is Roman Polanski going to be sent back to US prison immediately? :)

And I think I've got a nice project for SVP. They should come forward with an initiative to automatically consider anyone who earns less than CHF 100K per year guilty for not getting enough money :) Terrible crime, indeed.

Maybe I should apply to SVP, if they will trade an acceptance of my suspicious origin for good ideas :)

Gleb,

Echo of Moscow radio station (I'd saythey are one of the very few really independent political radio in Russia) made a small poll for the same question. Results are not at all surpising: around 90% voted for automatic expulsion.

So I'm actually surprised that only 52% out of all active voters supported the initiative. In most countries around the world this vote would pass like 80  20.

Best regards,
Greg

This was in yesterday's Matin or Temps

Le décès d’un conjoint suisse peut mettre fin à l’autorisation de séjour accordée à un étranger. Le Tribunal fédéral (TF) récuse tout automatisme qui accorderait un droit à la prolongation de séjour après un veuvage.

Un Indien âgé de 44 ans l’a appris à ses dépens après avoir épousé une septuagénaire zurichoise décédée une année après leur mariage. En 2008, l’Office des migrations du canton de Zurich avait refusé de prolonger son autorisation de séjour.

Regarding the point above by people born in Switzerland not becoming Swiss - I know of some cases in Lugano where they stay Italian despite being born in CH in order to avoid military service

And next, an initiative against foreign students -- particularly targetting German ones.  Note the comments from Oskar F., the UDC Valasian,  with Austrian origins.

http://www.swisster.ch/news/headlines/swiss-people%E2%80%99s-party-now-targets-foreign-students.html

Article from the New York Times regarding Swiss refusal of citizenship to long-time immigrants.  A bit old but the problem still apparently exists.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE5DB103AF932A15756C0A9669C8B63

Whats the problem here ... Switzerland is one of the few western countries that offers a passport/citizenship to people after 12 yrs residency....

To get a British or Irish PP you have to have a parent or grandparent that was a national... none of this residency begets you citizenship rubbish...

Been here 10 yrs, and quite happy being an Irish foriegner thanks.... (at least Im in no danger of being held hostage by Lybians)

"Libyans"....obviously...sorry was thinking about beer not spelling...

I read most of the replies, but I'm still convinced kicking serious criminal out of CH is a good idea. And honestly - I don't see the Xanophobic side of it.

If a guy raped or murdered then I'd want him as far away from me and my family as possible, and I couldn't care less what passport he carries. If he can be expelled then I'd feel safer knowing he ain't around, and I'd know others might think twice about doing the same crime knowing it's the punishment.

If such a criminal is not Swiss, there's a country he can be kicked to. If he's Swiss, then probably no other country would take him. But just cos no country will take the Swiss criminal is no reason, in my view, to allow the non-Swiss criminal to stay in CH as well.

All this "equality in the law" argument is nice, but it doesn't weigh up - by a long shot - to the benefits of having fewer serious criminals around.

Nir

Here is the issue, Charlie. 

The decision is on a cantonal basis, not federal.  That's why the Swiss federal government had to step in and make clearer standards, so that people with "funny names" stopped getting turned down.

I have US friends who have lived here for years and can barely speak french but they received their citizenship with no problem. I am learning all the names of major lakes, bridges, passes, cantons, and starting to study Swiss German, just in case.

http://www.migrationinformation.org/Feature/display.cfm?ID=731

 Unlike other countries where naturalization is a federal responsibility, individual communities or cantons in Switzerland decide whether or not to approve an immigrant's application for naturalization although the federal government gives general guidelines and the standard residency requirement is 12 years. Depending on the canton, the naturalization process can cost several thousand Swiss francs per person although the fee cannot exceed the actual cost.

Communities and cantons approve individual citizenship applicants either by means of a public assembly or a special panel decision. Panels and assemblies composed of municipality representatives may look at data about nationality, duration of residence in Switzerland, and degree of integration, but they are not privy to all private information, including the applicant's religion.

Refusals for naturalization must be given in writing, and applicants can appeal to cantonal authorities in cases of a refusal.

Between 1999 and 2005, the town of Emmen, near Lucerne in German-speaking Switzerland, used a third way for determining naturalizations that has since been banned: residents voted on whether or not to accept naturalization applications from local immigrants.

As a result, immigrants mainly from the Balkans who met basic federal requirements were denied citizenship. Some applicants whose applications were rejected appealed to higher authorities. The cases drew national attention and prompted the federal government to outlaw the ballot box practice in 2007.

Cantons are not required to integrate their foreigners on entirely local funds. The 2007 ordinance stipulates that the federal government will pay cantons a quarterly sum of 6,000 Swiss francs (about US$5,000) per refugee or immigrant with provisional legal residency, which excludes most asylum seekers.

Tougher Laws for Non-EU/EFTA Citizens

Under the Foreign Nationals Act, which went into effect on January 1, 2008, non-EU/EFTA citizens face stricter entry requirements and, if they are caught committing a crime, harsher punishments. The law states that residency permits will be awarded to non-EU/EFTA citizens only if the immigrant is a specialist, a manager, or a highly qualified professional. EU/EFTA citizens, on the other hand, can legally reside in Switzerland while searching for any type of employment.

Nir, I agree with you for the most part.  In fact, Switzerland expels "foreign criminals" regularly. 

Actually, Switzerland's 12 years is one of the longest requirements. Both Britain and France allow naturalised citizenship after 5 years.

(Best show the link, I don't want to get shouted at by the troll for not giving references:http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/britishcitizenship/eligibility/)

my bad i stand corrected.....

(it explains a few things then as well)

Rest of my comment got lost, there....

Problem is enforcement of the laws.  Just saw an article on WRS website stating that a 20-year-old Swiss got probation on a charge of attempted murder of a wheel-chair-bound person.  The criminal's excuse?  He had been drinking.  Compare that with the recent sentencing in Germany of Swiss students who went "wilding" and beat up a German citizen.  They got about 7 years' jail time each.

Oh, and bankers who laundered 45million Swiss francs of money from a corrupt Brazilian government official?  No jail time, maximum fine,  60,000 swiss francs.

The Swiss have laws on the books for expelling foreign criminals.  And the law also says that no "foreign criminal" (or "asylum seeker" for that matter) can remain in Switzerland unless that individual faces a well-founded fear of persecution in his home country.

Speaking of liberals calling for reparations, Arab culpability, and Qaddafi, see this link:

http://www.examiner.com/foreign-policy-in-san-diego/qaddafi-apologized-to-african-leaders-for-the-arab-slave-trade-africa

Hat trick for me...

I have contacted the administrators about the abusiveness of this post -- particularly, Jacob B terming Justin the "ethnic pet" of Lexilient. 

In fact, here is the chain of events:

a) Jacob B says primary banking institutions are connected with the central banks, aka, The STATE;

b) Justin makes a joke about looking for the "STATE" and kicking it's ass;

c) Jacob B  assumes himself to  be equivalent to the "STATE" and says Justin is threatening him with bodily harm;

d) Jacob B says this is not the Bronx;

e) Lexilent responds saying that the  comment related to the Bronx is racist in itself;

f) Jacob B replies saying  he was threatened by Justin who is Lexilent's "ethnic pet."

Unless Jacob B does not fully understand English and perhaps mistook Justiin's joke about kicking the "STATE's" ass, his rant brings a whole new meaning to l'etat, c'est moi (Louis XIV's assertion that HE was the STATE.)

Other people's comments have been deleted for much less than this.  One hopes that, at the VERY least, a warning will be issued as well as an apology.

Translator emailed me to complain and I replied to her.

If now she wants to make the complaint public then I'll make my answer public as well: some of the posts on this thread indeed were "dancing on the edge" of being too offensive. If it escalates again we'll take action.

To chill out until then, check out today's BuyClub offer on Cupcakes.

I may stop by to "ethnically pet" you, Charlie...

I am only going to make this last post on this thread:

Charlie are those Christmas decorations reflected in your photo?

Hey I didn't say it was going to be relevant 

Only posting to report that Charlie was indeed met by three US women at Mulligan's last night.  We got him drunk but did not take advantage of him and ensured that he got a taxi home.

Thanks, Charlie....

Charlie

b) Justin makes a joke about looking for the "STATE" and kicking it's ass;
c) Jacob B  assumes himself to  be equivalent to the "STATE" and says Justin is threatening him with bodily harm;

Ahum, arent we selectivly blind (as most leftist are today)  the truth today, shall we look at what was actually mentioned by the hate monger "Justin"

...where does he live? I dying of kicking his ass too, together with its wholesalers...

wow, I didnt know the state had a residential address, me thinks he is talking about a person (moi) not an organisation, so this crap and smokeblowing about Royalty (me=the state) is again sign of rampant subversion of the facts, (a typical leftist trait)

Now,/..., maybe if you stopped lying you could actually make an argument stick

Voilà, the actual quote.

I ask you again, why do you believe you are the "STATE?"  

Your responses would be hysterically funny if they weren't so entirely frightening.

Huh?

what have i got to do with it?

Jacob re read the threads.... you'll find i didnt quote that....

wakey wakey