My name lookes like it comes from the British Isles, so, I get cold called a lot.  As a US citizen, as a number of UBS account holders have found out (how's that jail working out for you?), I can not take advantage of this 'off-shore' concept to avoid taxes.  After explaing this over and over and over again I gave up.  Given that my ex-wife is a US CPA and does US taxes, I know way more than I ever wished about this.

It turns out that 'I run my own money' seems to be a magic phrase to get them to stop calling.

Happens all the time, I have friends in Zurich, Basel and Geneva, they have all been pestered, US citizens cannot take advantage of tax efficient savings plans, so I also now just tell them I am from the USA and that i am going home next year, that shuts em up, till the next call!

dont just take my word for it, look at this link

http://www.canyoutrustthem.com/index.php?go=details&id=2932&save_new_comment=yes&adv=&company_name=&city=#coo

Myself and one of my colleagues received one of these calls this past week, at work.  They only knew our first names.  It was very strange.  I don't remember the name of the company but he said they were based in the UK.

This sounds veeeeery important..... can you please tell us more about it? who exactly  are these companies ? any names ? I myself know couple of companies with the names containing .......... all abovementioned and truly want to learn if they are part of such business practices...

Hi Pmanouche,

I thought I was going to get angry at this post when directed to it by site admin, as they know me and that I work with Forth Capital in Geneva, so they assumed I would be interested... and I am - But actually I´m quite pleased you brought up the issue - and I´ll be happy to take part in any ensuing debate... because you´re absolutely right.

I have worked for Forth Capital for many years and I am now in a senior position -although we made some cold calls when we opened an office in Geneva over 3 years ago, we did so in the professional manner of introducing our services to key people.  As many people in Geneva know, we have a solid reputation and gain our clients´ trust by holding public seminars and other inviational events - we do not cold call random individuals and we certainly do not do it in Basel.  I would guess other companies have used our name, sadly it is not the first time, but there´s nothing we can do.  If it happens again ask for the name and phone number of the person and call them back - I can guarantee it will not be our office. 

Anyway, more importantly is the issue of professionalism - All Forth Capital consultants have to be qualified with the UK Financial Planning Certificates 1, 2 & 3 and then obtain an international version from the Securities and Investment Institute.  It is on each person´s business card.  We are also structured for the long-term client relationship, none of our consultants trip in from the UK or elsewhere on commission only deals, they are all legal residents here in Geneva.  Therefore it is in our interest to choose the right investment, explain the charges, ascertain individual risk tolerence and select the correct length of time.  So our intention is to establish a personal relationship with the client in the long-term, unlike the salesman approach who get everything upfront and have no further interest.

I suggest anyone unsure should ask to see the consultants´ professional qualifications, their B or C permit to prove they are resident and properly employed, but above all ask for references on both the adviser and the company before signing anything.

I was a bit gutted to see our company on that list, hopefully my comments here give some balance.  As I said Pmanouch, we do not cold call, certainly not in Basel, I have clients there myself, but none of them were ever cold called - The funny thing is WE all get cold called as well by these companies, usually call centres in the UK where salesman are visiting Geneva... but that´s all they are - and they have no idea who we are, obviously, which says it all.

Finally, it sounds like you have had a bad experience other than just cold calls - If you are talking about charges you at least let someone present something to you, or worse got shoe-horned into something you did not understand.  If you want to discuss anything feel free to call me, we do not have to talk about personal issues on a public forum - I´ll be happy to advise you professionally, independently and with full transparancy of charges and commissions.  That goes for anyone... but you call me... you´ll be waiting a very long time for me to call you!!

Regards, Dean.

thanks for filling us in on your company, I have and know people who have had bad experiences with the companies involved, and I am just trying to let people know and would like to hear other peoples experiences, from what you say you are a proffessional outfit, and it is decent of you to take this post in the spirit it is meant to be in.

I know that you dont fly in like some of the others, and it is good to hear that all your consultants are qualified in at least some financial areas,  can you tell me, is Forth Capital in any way connected with deVere & Partners, as i have heard from someone that you are.  I know a lot of companies are started from ex Devere consultants, and now is the chance to ask you direct.

I hop this thread matures into an informed, intelligent and open debate, and welcome everyone to contribute who has a valid viewpoint.

Hi Pmanouche,

It is great to have this type of forum, I have often thought of starting one myself along the same lines as you, but it would not be very professional.  I get really miffed at the potentially harmful practices of "parachute salesmen" as we call them (based elsewhere, but come to Switzerland for quick sales... and like you said in your first post they take the commission and move on) - Especially as we work hard to meet people honestly and professionally.

I think that only good due diligence of the customer will prevent bad sales practices as who in their right mind would meet with a non-resident, non-qualified sales representive and then invest with that person without first conducting any due diligence? - This takes me to my point again, which I will re-emphasise: - If you take a cold call and agree to meet with someone you have never heard of, even if you end up liking the person you MUST do due diligence.  The easiest way in Switzerland is to ask to see their work permit and except no bullshit that it is being re-newed, extended, lost or they do not need one etc - Also if a salesman claims to have certain qualifications and experiences, check it out - just ask to speak with one or two of their existing clients over 12 months (preferably from within your company) to ascertain if there is any on-going relationship or aftersales servivce.  Failure to do so is in my opinion the clients' poor judgement.  Sorry to sound harsh, but from my point of view they will never stop flying in on the big easyjet bus every monday morning... so everyone needs to wise up.

To answer your question Pmanouche, that company you mentioned have nothing to do with us.  I have heard this claim before and I believe it stems from a financial advisory marketing company called Inter Alliance Worldnet based in Cyprus.  Any offshore financial advisory company can pay them an annual fee to receive up-to-date financial news and new investment information - we currently subscribe to them as do many other companies, but we have nothing to do with each other apart from that.

Finally, you said in your last post: "...it is good to hear that all your consultants are qualified in at least some financial areas..." - To be clear, we are qualified in every area of financial planning and advice, not just "some" - I'm sure you didn't mean that satirically, but I am a stickler for detail!

Let's hope some other advisers join in, intelligently, I know they use this site for their cold-calling database... especially as someone once cold-called me at work and asked for "Deano" (my name is Dean) - I thought it was one of my mates... he certainly acted like he'd known me for years... turned out he wanted to meet me to tell me all about offshore investments!!!  Rest assured I had a lot of fun with him on the phone... until he hung up!!

Devere was the one that called us

Just to add my own experiences to the mix. For some reason since I was in the Uk I seem to have been pestered by various financial institutions with offers from insurances to full service support.

Now being part of the UN it seems that I am once again a ripe fruit to pluck (or something very similar).

The strategy is as follows:

1. Offer someone a set of services that will not result in a fee.

2. The mention however that in order to gain this amazing deal, you need to give 5 or 10 names of people you work with (with or without their permission) who may (or often may not) be interested in a similar amazing offer.

3. Viral effects ensue and before you know it your name is being bought and sold to more and more hungry commission based sales men.

Even when told you are not interested you still get calls from other assistants to Mr or Ms. Sales person to see if you are interested. It seems in their dictionary "NO" translates to "yes of course please call me every few weeks".

This approach only alienates me to other such companies and there is no way I would trust such an organization with my capital. many of my colleagues have already been warned NOT to offer names.

Forth Capital

Devere

plus plus.

At the end of the day it is their job. They are hired to get as many people onto their books as they can. Truth can become grey. However, grey today can impact the financial security of our tomorrows.

Thanks for the post, although there are compamies who fly in salesmen for a week at a time, and cold call from the UK, I know that there are also many firms based in switzerland, geneva, basel, zurich, who employ british salespeople to sell investments and whole of life insurance policies, they advise that because these policies, are with reputable insurance giants like generali, hansard, friends provident etc that they must be bona fide, however, the cost to the client is not so transparent and the commissions paid to the salesmen are very generous, which inhibits the investment as usually the investment can only break even after about year 8.  Not good.  But the client isnt told this,

Wouldnt it be better for everyone if the commissions paid were explicitly highlighted and formed part of the agreement as is now legal in the UK,  this would clean up the industry and allow potential clients to see if they wanted the consultant salesperson to be paid the thousands in commission for essentially a couple of hours work!  I received this post regarding forth capital dont know if its true or not, seems to imply that Forth Capital and de Veres and Inter Aliiance are in some way connected, makes for an interesting thread.

"Just a little precision. Forth Capital will have direct agencies with the offshore insurers, but will get enhanced commission rates because of their Inter Alliance affiliation, who also get a %.

Its a way of de veres owner to profit from the independent sector, as well as contunuing to profit from salesmen who mature and want to go off and do their own thing. I have no idea how many FC staff are ex DV .. but there is one at least for sure."

I love this topic, as the amount of calls I have received since being back in Geneva drives me crazy.
Over the last 2.5 years I have received so many calls, I lost count. However, there is 1 memorable experience where some lad (as you Brits call them) rang me up and immediately started a conversation as if he was my best friend from college. He asked how my weekend was and how the family is doing before he gasped for air and I was able to ask who the hell he was. He again started off on another long-winded monologue about his company, Devere, how some super star was going to be in my office in the near future and when could this lad pencil me in for an audience? (Well, that's what he was making it sound like). I then explained that as my accent should have given away, I am American and therefore not at liberty to benefit from all the services he offered. Then, cutting him off from his bs response, I further added that my finances are handled by his competition and am very happy with the services I receive. This kid didn't give up, which I give him credit for, but he fired back the most unintelligent crap that I had to cut him short and bid him good day. I had to ask where they dragged this guy in from and thought of the scene in the Boiler Room where Giovanni Ribisi educates the news paper sales man on cold calling. Check it out @ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sW-PHukzdgM

Now, the punch-line is that this same jack-ass called me back less than 2 weeks later with the same opening line and same arrogance. I couldn't believe it and had to set him straight in a much more directive manner then before. I think he got the message as he hasn’t called back since.

Situation within my company is that companies like Devere are not welcome in our building unless kept on a leash. Not naming them in particular, but employee directories have vanished from conference rooms where meetings were held.

What can I say? Stick to your guns and go with the people you can trust. Try having a curry or a few beers with them before you hand-over your cash. Meet their wife and kids and let them meet yours. It's all about personal relationship when it comes to your hard-earned money and your family's future.

Boiler Room, What is a Boiler Room?

It comes from the film of the same name (2000)

"Dishonest brokers set up "boiler rooms" where a small army of high-pressure salespeople use banks of telephones to make cold calls to as many potential investors as possible.

These strangers hound potential clients to invest with their  firm, they try and sell a meeting whereby a 'Consultant' (salesperson) will meet with them and give them a financial makeover or healthcheck. They then arrange a 2nd meet  and suggest  some proposals on how to make investments that will mature when they want to retire, this often involves high pressure sales techniques and long term savings plans that the client doesent know enough about to query, and doesent really want.

  ...but the Boiler Room telephone technique is to call as many people as possible to arrange meetings with people, often people who work in good jobs, like the pharmaceutical industry, perhaps."

To Neil McCarthy:  Our company have never asked for names of people in that way and we are not commission hungry like you suggest, but we are driven by success, there´s a difference.  I´m not challenging your opinion, that´s fine, if you have had a bad experience, sure spread the word - But I challenge that it was us... we don´t ask for names of 10 people like that... I could be wrong, so would you tell me the name the person with a date and time of the meeting from our company that asked you for 10 names?  Thanks.  On this forum or by email.

To Pmanouche:  You seem to have taken this off track totally - In my last post I offered sound advice to readers on how to choose an adviser, I also even offered that you call me to discuss your situation because you were obviously turned over - Instead you have chosen to ignore that and stick the boot in by making a general sweeping statement that we all get inflated commissions and that somehow we are all linked... or whatever, but you´re obviously pissed off and just want to have a general moan rather than an intelligent debate like you first claimed. 

For the record our company is not linked, owned, sistered or shared with anyone.  We do not get inflated commissions.  We do not get set agreements.  We do not get network related payments.  Also the history of our advisers is irrelevant, they may be ex-devere, ex-guardian, ex-barclays, it does not matter - would you like to know who smoked pot at college, who once got expelled from school, who was breastfed...? Ask me in a private email if you´re curious - I will also give you the commission statements of each adviser... that is of course when your pharma company give me the scientific research report of every product you sell... and also how your wholesale prices differ between first and third world countries.  If you are going to slate a particular industry, do not announce that you are from a pharma company... because if this forum turns into one of ethics then you have an uphill struggle on your hands, not from me, I´ve said what I have to say, I´ve given good due diligence advice and been honest about my thoughts.

Matt:  You are spot on about building up trust and getting to know your adviser and each others´families, that´s exactly how to do business in this world (my love to Claire and Maddox on that note ;-)) - I really can´t emphasise enough the importance of customer due diligence... So...

To Everyone:  The finger of blame goes out to the world... but look where the other three fingers are pointing... back at YOU!!  For the final time...When choosing an adviser, check the work permit, ask for references!  And if you´re genuinely interested ask how the adviser gets paid - In the UK it is law to disclose, here it is not... but I do it when asked, it´s no big secret.

Forth Capital... Taking you Forward... The WRS business report every morning with Henk Potts.

Interesting Dean, it looks like you are moving the debate on to the slating the Phamra industry, thats another matter maybe you should start a new thread for that one, I`d love to take you on, on an that debate, you seem very knowledgeable on the ethics of medicine versus capitalism.

Anyway on this thread we will be sticking to the Finance question,  you mention your commission is no big secret, so lets have it out in the open, how much do you earn per deal, what is the formula.

  As you say in the UK it is law that this is made known to each client before they sign up, but it is not here, I think we would all like to know, transparency is good.

I dont want to attack your company but you do seem very defensive about your industry, and it does seem to have a acquired a bad name, why do you think this is?

You mention to check if salesmen have valid work permits, but virtually anyone can get a B permit in switzerland, it isnt hard!  So what check does that do, other than confirm they work in switzerland, and are based their, it dosent mean they are ethical, moral or honest.

Forums like these give a much needed voice to the many often intimidated, silent majority of us who work hard and want to make sure our money is safe, but given the bad name IFA`s have in switzerland it is difficult to find someone who we can rely on,  so it turns out that the forums give people a safeguard and a voice, to express their experiences and opinions for all to see.

Transparency is good.

Sep 09, 2009 – deVere have today terminated the contract of Russell Morgan, an Investment Consultant working in Dubai, UAE. Russell has been charged with obtaining money whilst bankrupt. Unfortunately he was lured in with easy credit, as many people have been over the last few years. This is extremely regrettable as Russell was successful at looking after his clients in Dubai, and although the events occurred before Russell joined deVere, the organisation does not condone his behaviour and have therefore taken action immediately.

http://www.prlog.org/10336621-devere-have-today-terminated-the-contract-of-russell-morgan.html

De Vere are worldwide and this is the type of consultant they employ in Dubai. This is their own press release.  Gives you confidence doesent it.  They have headquarters in Zurich, and branches in Geneva and basel.

I thought this was about sharing experiences. To me all the comments made seem to align on one key principle - transparency. This was we cultivate our own trust in either the individual and/or the company they represent.

In response to dean01UK, I have been contacted by your company and others. The 10 names request is real and has caused such a stir within the UN agency in question that we in management sent a bulletin to all staff building awareness and preventing the sharing of employee names within the work environment.

I do not believe I openly stated that the practice mentioned was from your organisation. I am sure you are fully aware of your own practices.

It is well known that salaried staff within many of these companies are paid a base and a bonus based on the value of services sold.

As part of that kind of service provider I suggest you seek ways in your own marketing on how to build customer trust. Perhaps some insights such as the ones you have seen here should be taken with the spirit they were meant - protecting our colleagues from sharks and hard sellers.

I have actually had some business dealings with the real Forth Capital, and found that everything Dean says is true. I was certainly  not asked for the names of 10 of my collegues.

I also seem to think the message of this post is: " Be wary of cold callers". Wow, what an astounding revelation!!

Caveat Emptor

Ok - this is getting silly.  What on earth are you talking about, formulas for commissions...and how much do I get paid per deal?  My salary is none of your business, just because you got screwed over for not doing proper due diligence, doesn´t make me the bad man or the person who has to swoop in and start explaining everything publically.  Transpancy on those issues are for my clients.  I made that clear.  I added sound advice, but you just have to keep putting the boot in don´t you! 

I´ve said what I need to regarding advise and if anyone really does have any sensible questions or professional concerns, please email.   I could suggest asking to look at the advisers qualifications as part of due diligence... But no doubt I´ll be told that they are easy to print from the internet!!  Just use common sense!

Anyway... happy to help, but this is all going a bit off track - thanks for indulging me, but short of tossing you my car keys, I´m not sure I can add much more value here.

Nothing against Forth Capital, but I Wonder how long brucelawson has worked for Forth Capital.

Good attempt, You coudnlt make it up!

Cheers Bruce.  But try and keep your bonus over a million this year or I´ll need those 10 names!

Lol... Bruce I´ll let you deal with that one!  Mr Pmanouche is the new Michael Moore conspiracy theorist of the financial world!!

Dean, you said and i quote

"And if you´re genuinely interested ask how the adviser gets paid - In the UK it is law to disclose, here it is not... but I do it when asked, it´s no big secret."

I am only asking you, dont get upset, its no big secret is it.

This is interesting I realise I may have touched a nerve, so moving on, I dont want you to take things personally, I am not getting at you, jst the industry as a whole, why does it have such a bad reputation? 

It seems to me that the IFA industry is similar to the Timeshare industry of the 1980`s and look what happened there.  The industry was tighened up and the sharks left, do you not think it is time for the industry itself to regulate and get rid of the sharks,  in reality it is the only way the industry can survive.

I do not know if the industry in general is having this broad conversation, but it would seem sensible to do so. 

Remember, if there were no sharks about no one would be posting on threads like these, i know you can always get the odd bad apple, but really there seems a lot in the Financial barrell at the moment.

Dean it is good that you have taken this on the chin, but I am not aiming this at you or your company, but at the general IFA industry, so it is unfair for you to respond to each message as it is not doing your companies image much good i suspect.  But obviously i dont want to tell you what to do, but if you want to be associated with this thread then so be it.

Dean, I have done some research on your company, and quote your post here, where you categorically, stated that your company has nothing to do with De Vere and Partners, you said

"To answer your question Pmanouche, that company you mentioned have nothing to do with us.  I have heard this claim before and I believe it stems from a financial advisory marketing company called Inter Alliance Worldnet based in Cyprus.  Any offshore financial advisory company can pay them an annual fee to receive up-to-date financial news and new investment information - we currently subscribe to them as do many other companies, but we have nothing to do with each other apart from that."

However, good old google has come up with this link from your own newsletter,

http://www.forthcapital.com/client/newsletters/issue01.pdf

De vere and Partners own Inter Alliance, of which Forth Capital is a member, which means De Vere and partners owns Forth Capital,  makes me wonder why you seem to have forgotten this little detail,  So Transparent

I really fail to see the issue here:
You can go to a reputable garage and buya car, or you can get one from some dodgy geezer down the pub
You can buy a TV from a well known chain, or you can purchase one from a market stall.
You can go into Harrods and buy some perfume, or you can get it cheap from some guy selling it out of a suitcase,
You can go somewhere reputable for your financial advice, or listen to the words of a cold caller.
It's called common sense, and really is no big deal.
The fact that  this thread keeps banging on about it would suggest to me that someone went down the pub and not to the garage. Why otherwise would there be this whole thread about cold calling from less than reputable financial companies? There is a wonderful use of a phone you might like to try in these situations. It's called hanging up.....

Sorry, bruce, but you have completely, missed the point.  It is not just about cold calling but the whole IFA led investment industry with regard to ex-pats, to be clear, just because you were not cold called doesent automatically mean you have a good IFA, it is not as simple as that,

Cold calling does go on, and referrals go on, but many people do not realise that their financial advisor may not be regulated or even qualified, to give advice, they may not be regulated to act in the country they are in,  its really just about awareness and letting people know what is out there, and reputable financial institutions and IFA`s should welcome this, but we get resistance all the time.

It really is a shame, and time something was done about it.

Bruce, I really can’t believe you just said that. You’re a Brit right, so you know what the UK endowment and pensions ‘miss-selling scandals’ were. 100’s of thousands of people were sold unnecessarily expensive products through unethical sales practices.

The fact is that there is an affluent professional class in Switzerland which IS an easy target for these people. Even regulation, qualifications, marketing methods are well and good, but in the end are also just window dressing. Cold calling and extracting ‘referrals’ may be unprofessional and a nuisance, but nobody ever died of it.

If we take competent generic advice as a given (shouldn’t we be able to do that ?) The only thing that counts is cost transparency. Total expense ratios vary between .5% and 3% (thats the reduction in the effective annual growth, because of the effect of charges). That’s enormous .. in fact if you buy the most expensive products you may as well actually stick the money under the mattress and watch it get eroded by inflation.

Pmanouche I agree with you completely about this problem, especially regarding the number of people who lose money because they don’t realise the inflexibility they are signing up for and the penalties they will face if they want out. That said, I don’t think you do yourself any favours by appearing to be on a blinkered crusade without considering the wider issues. Whatever Forth Capitals arrangements are , membership of a network does not imply ownership and shows a lack of joined up thinking. Company ownership details are all available at the register of commerce ..

You referred to commission disclosure being mandatory in the UK. Well actually its now gone a stage further. From 2012 it will be illegal for an adviser that wishes to be considered independent to have ANY interest in the transactions he advises on.  You called for professionalization; well in principle thats all very laudable, but be careful what you wish for because if remuneration doesn’t come from the product, it has to come from the client. How many people in the sub-high net worth space are willing to pay 300 – 400 CHF per hour ?

What’s the solution ? Well its just a personal opinion but I think the answer is affinity partnerships. Organisations like Glocals, Swisster, the Chambers of Commerce etc ..  could do a lot to partner with competent firms who are also willing to reduce their costs, in return for the volume which means everybody benefits.

As for HR departments (Neil) .. if they built bridges with the right advisers their employees would be sufficiently aware and informed, that the cowboys would never get a look in.  

For the nice lady that suggested having curries and family get togethers with your adviser, congratulations that you feel you have made good choices. For everyone else thinking of pursuing that route I have one word :  M-a-d-o-f-f.

Wily.