hey Greg, I was wondering what would happen if the UDC woman refuses her election.... i've asked the question around but noone could figure it out...
addaxnat, Dec 12, 2007 @ 16:16

I've been told that the Parliament would have to re-run the election.

The UDC will try hard to re-install Blocher on his seat.

Let's hope that she accepts, as a woman and moderate UDC will always be better the the fallen populist candidate.
Syd_Brown, Dec 12, 2007 @ 16:34

And a big step for Switzerland
GuillaumeTel, Dec 12, 2007 @ 17:05

Hi

latest news is that if mrs schlumpf (sorry for the misspelling) refuses the job, they have to get back and redo the vote. Blocher could definitely apply again for candidate. We'll know tomorrow at 8.00

Must be a huge blow to his ego though. Who would want to present himself again after having being already dumped once ?
titoan, Dec 12, 2007 @ 21:18

Eveline Widmer-Schlumpf has accepted the position of Conseillere Federale. I admire her courage to accept this position against the will of her party. This election, to me, is a clear message that the Parliament will no longer accept politicians to play at the same time the role of government member and oposition party leader. This is, alos, a sanction aginst the radicalisation of the party from a conservative to a racist one I guess.

This choice, to me, is clever, because it respects both the choice of the electors (UDC deserved to have two seats, may one like it or not) and the principles of the Swiss democracy. If UDC chooses to get away from their own Conseiller, and to become an opposition party, their call. But they'll have to bear the consequences themselves.

And as for Blocher as a person, good to hear that this selfish billionaire businesman acting as a farmer's friend - or even an egocentric uncivilized and unrespectfull of the laws child one could say - got a slap on the cheek.
Hobbes, Dec 13, 2007 @ 11:49

Obviously, everyone has jumped on the Blocher retribution bandwagon, but have you listened to one of his interviews, or followed his debates on television? He's a rational Swiss man, with the best interests of his country at heart. His policy ideas are based on hard facts, backed up with statistics. Blocher's diplomatic manner isn't great, which is unfortunate, given that he has tried to tackle some delicate issues (like agricultural policy and immigration). The situation isn't as black and white as his poor taste sheep poster suggests. Nonetheless, with over 70% of the prison population of foreign origin, there are issues that need leadership and commitment to change - not the wishy-washy, egg-shell walking politically "correct" policies that created this situation in the first place. Rock on Blocher.
Cpt_Numpty, Dec 13, 2007 @ 13:35

my swiss colleague originally from Burundi. She is happy so am I!
wayne, Dec 13, 2007 @ 13:48

Well when I was really surprised yesterday to find this out.
And all the evening the TV was speaking abt it.
I knew that Mme Schlumpf would say yes, she is just clever enough to enter to her position with some noise (ah politics)
Well now, clearly Blocher is the black sheep of the parliament that was kicked out very nicely. He became a victim of his own fame.
Swiss politics is becoming interesting as well.
Now there is smth to talk abt.
Gen2003Eva, Dec 13, 2007 @ 14:11

While I’m not an advocate for discrimination, it seems that this man was democratically elected because he voiced concerns that a large number of Swiss nationals have.

I’m confused as to the actual reason used to oust him (other than the fact that the other party’s don’t agree on his mandate) and a little astonished by the power or rather lack of choice the UDC has of replacing him themselves. I would think that allowing the OTHER parties to choose who will lead the UDC closes the doors to democracy and opens the doors to corruption because, by the same token, party’s like the UDC could, in theory, be able to oust a more liberal party leader and replace them with who THEY want.

And, for example, what’s to prevent a supporter of the Green Party running as a UDC candidate and then getting ‘offered’ the position of leader of the UDC (after the election) by the Green Party?

My french is not that good so it’s difficult to follow the politics. Any clarification would be most appreciated.

Riley, Dec 13, 2007 @ 14:25

Blocher made a big mistake. He dreamt about incarnating some super hero, a kind of "Super Swiss Savior" that would save our poor little country of stupid powerless sheep from horrible hords of dangerous foreign criminals. But Swiss are no sheep. We've faced 2 world wars, industrial crisis and even invasions. Our institutions and some values have survived. We don't need some arrogant industrial manager to give us lessons. We don't like people who want to play the Berlusconi, Sarkozy or Khadafi. Did you see any posters in town with Couchepin, Calmy Rey or any other government members in the streets but Blocher? Swiss people don't like show offs. We, people of Switzerland, have elected our Parliament. And this Parliament, in our name, has elected the person they though was best for the job, and fits best our values, habits and needs. Respecting the two seats UDC deserved, but without becoming a political party pupet. The Parliament is the supreme authority, and should not be put on a leach by any party, whatever it is. I'm happy to see our Parliament members had the guts to stand together united for that.

What will happen next is, as they say, history.
Hobbes, Dec 13, 2007 @ 14:30

"Election mode
The members of the Federal Council are elected for a term of four years by both chambers of the federal parliament sitting together as the Federal Assembly. Each Councillor is elected individually by secret ballot by an absolute majority of votes. EVERY ADULT SWISS CITIZEN IS ELIGIBLE, but in practice, only Members of Parliament or more rarely, members of Cantonal governments are nominated by the political parties and receive a substantial amount of votes.

With Council seats allocated to parties by unwritten agreement (see BELOW), Federal Council elections generally are unexciting, pleasant affair" (LOL here!)"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Federal_Council


"In Swiss politics, the magic formula (German: Zauberformel, French: formule magique, Italian: formula magica) is an arithmetic formula for dividing the seven executive seats of the Swiss Federal Council between the four ruling parties. The formula was first applied in 1959. It gave the Free Democratic Party, the Christian Democratic People's Party and the Social Democratic Party each two seats, while the Swiss People's Party (SVP) (also known as the Central Democratic Union) received one seat.

The formula is not an official law, but rather an agreement amongst the rather large coalition of four parties. After the 2003 general elections, the formula was modified, giving two seats to the SVP at the expense of the CDPP."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_formula


For all that, Blocher has not been banned or victim of a conspiracy. He is entitled to be leader of the UDC party if he wishes to. Even the "Magic formula" has been respected. What is unusual is that the Parliament elects someone who has not been proposed by their respective party. But this is 100% legal and democratic.
Hobbes, Dec 13, 2007 @ 14:39

and many other languages as well you can check the Swissinfo website. It has some very good explanations of the system.
Translator, Dec 13, 2007 @ 16:08

Whatever you and I think of Blocher and his party, I don’t think it was a clever move to oust him. You guys seem naively to think “Blocher out, problem solved”. It’s much, much, much much much more complicated than this. The point is NOT wheter you like Blocher or not. The point is, we live in a semi direct democracy and in this system, if a powerful party decides to play systematic opposition (that’s probably what UDC – SVP will do), it can do a lot of damage.

Take just one example. Switzerland has a free movment of persons agreement with EU. It has to be extended to Romamia and Bulgaria – but a referendum can be launched against it. If the referendum prevails, EU would have the right to cancel all the other swiss – EU agreements, that are essential to Switzerland. They probably wouldn’t do it right away but this threat would give them such a leverage that Switzerland would be completely at their mercy. It would be such a disaster that realistics within the UDC aknowledge that it would be a much too risky move.

Now that UDC feels ousted and humiliated, you can be sure that they will launch the referendum whatever the consequences – as a revenge. They may prevail – last referendum on a similar matter was defeated by only a narrow margin. And if they do, consequences will be much much much much much more serious that anything Blocher can do in the government.

It’s only one example. UDC playing the systematic opposition with the instruments of semi direct democracy can have a devastating effect. Their supporters are still here, so don’t think that the room is clean because you hid the dirt under the carpet.

Bustan_A, Dec 14, 2007 @ 00:38

the main factor you perhaps have not taken into account in your analysis is the internal dissention within the UDC. Schmid and Widmer-Schulmpf represent the more moderate side of that party. This is the reason why both of these UDCers were acceptable to the majority of the parliament. And also a reason why neither of the two resigned their posts. They are fiscal conservatives but they do not sing along to the "blame the foreigners for all the ills of Switzerland" leitmotif.

Every democracy must go through a struggle for its soul once in a while. Yes, some of the UDC will be in opposition. That is not necessarily a bad thing. It may also lead to a strengthening of the other parties and create new alliances where they did not exist before. This is exactly the kind of alliance that led to Blocher's ouster.


Translator, Dec 14, 2007 @ 04:17

now, thanks for insights :-)
Good_One, Dec 14, 2007 @ 11:55

As some journalist said, the big fight is still to come. The alliance archieved amongst parties must now survive the UDC being an opposition party, you're right. But not every single UDC member will agree to do so. Usually, local representatives put family, village, state or country benefit before political parties ones. Unlike many americans politicians who often are Democrats or Republicans at core, Swiss usually change party affiliations during their carreer. Self values are more important than fidelity to the leader. Thus, UDC might face an internal crisis that might (might not) lead it to become more moderate, less openly racist, or even to explode in two separate indentities; conservative, and extreme right racist. Time will tell. But one important message has been sent out. And I agree with this message.
Hobbes, Dec 14, 2007 @ 15:24

Good analysis, by the way.
Nir Ofek, Dec 14, 2007 @ 18:25

You said that an important message has been sent out? Which message?

What was just explained to the Swiss people is that there are two categories of voters: those who cast a “correct vote” and have the right to have their sensitivity represented in the government, and those who cast a “bad vote” and have not such a right, even if their party is number one in the country (don't tell me the tale of UDC still having two seats in the Conseil federal, everybody knows that if they got 29% of the votes, it was because of Blocher's wing, not because of minority moderates).

Do you really agree with this message?
Bustan_A, Dec 14, 2007 @ 18:55

(Bustan: I find your analysis very helpful and insightful - thanks!)

I am not familiar at all with the Swiss political system. In my ignorance, I interperted Blocher being thrown out as a message the Swiss mainstream government was sending, saying that Blocher (and his party's ideas) are not welcome. Again, this is based on my own zero understanding of the Swiss political system.

Did I get the message totally wrong?

Nir Ofek, Dec 14, 2007 @ 20:59

UDC in Grisons is just basicly a conservative party. For opposition, what I find the most likely is that Blocher splits the UDC in 2, the conservatives on one side, the extremes (him included) the other side. Wouldn t be surprising it brings 20% to Blocher side, 10% to new conservative party. And from that the political game will start again.

Time will tell.
GuillaumeTel, Dec 14, 2007 @ 21:18

Yes, Nir, this is the message that the parliament (not the government) wanted to send. But the point is not which message they wanted to send, but rather how the people receive it and the effect it will have. And for a lot of people, it will vindicate UDC's view that they represent the small people against the arrogant politicallly correct elite. And in the end, it may reinforce and radicalize UDC even more. So what's the use of sending generous messages if it worsens the situation? And if for example we end up loosing the referendum on free movment of persons agreement (see my first post)?

Anyway, swiss democracy was not invented for sending messages (for this, you have e-mails, SMS, letters, press releases, posts on the forums, megaphones, pop-ups and posters in the street). Swiss democracy is about finding trade-offs between conflicting interests, which was not properly done during this election.

Bustan_A, Dec 14, 2007 @ 22:27

"A Councillor's job is to work for the benefit of the Country, working as a team member with the whole Federal Council to reach an acceptable consensus. It is not to promote oneself, one's party, or defend one's business partners priviledges."

Just for the record, as Justice Minister, Blocher has been proved guilty of putting pressure on the Federal Prosecutor. As memmber of the Council, he has openly critisised his fellow colleagues actions in the newspapers, which goes against the tradition. He has also taken a personal commitment in the black sheep campaign, which he shouldn't have, according to usage.

For all that, I guess it's more his personal behavior than the values of his electors that have been rejected by the Federal Assembly. UDC got 29% of the votes, and have 29% of representatives at the Council. Could one get anything more fair? And, sorry to say, but at the end of the day, the Federal Assembly is by essence THE institution representative of all the voters. Calling them anti-democratic sounds either a joke, or being a poor looser.

But once again, no one can say, today, what will happen next. I won't risk any bet about it. But I can't fully agree with sentences like "because he has lost he has won". For the time being, Blocher has lost, and UDC is struggeling to face this defeat. They might end up stronger, but they might also and up half dead.
Hobbes, Dec 15, 2007 @ 00:30

Out of a total of 246 seats:

Swiss Senate: 46 seats -- 2 senators per full canton, 1 per half-canton.

Christian Democratic Party: 15 seats; Radical Party: 12 seats; Social Democratic Party: 9 seats; Swiss People's Party: 7 seats; Green Party: 2 seats; Others: 1 seat

Total: 46 seats -- out of which UDC has 7, all other parties combined 39

House of Representatives: 200 seats -- each cantons' number of representatives based upon proportion

Swiss People's Party: 62 seats; Social Democratic Party: 43 seats; Christian Democratic Party: 31 seats; Radical Party: 31 seats; Green Party: 20 seats; Others: 13 seats

Total: 200 seats -- out of which UDC 62, all others combined 138

So, out of 246 seats total UDC had 69, all other parties combined obtained 177.

All parties generally vote their party line. Not all members of a party follow their party leadership. So there is nothing undemocratic about the vote.

The first six cabinet ministers were elected on the first round.

Schmid (UDC) 201 votes; Couchepin (Radicals) 205 votes; Merz (Radicals) 213; Leuenberger (Social Democrats) 157: Calmy-Rey (Social Democrats) 153; Leuthard (Christian Democrats) 160.

In the voting for the final seat Blocher obtained 111 votes. Widmer-Schlumpf got 116. Neither got a majority. In the second round Widmer-Schlumpf received 125 out of 242 voting.

Furthermore, Ueli Mauer, titular head of the UDC lost his bid for a senate seat in Zurich canton to a woman (Verena Diener) of the newly formed Liberal Green party. Mauer lost by 30,000 votes. UDC also lost a key senate seat in St. Gallen. Had the UDC won these two extra senate seats the outcome may have been different with Mauer able to put more pressure on Senate colleagues.
Translator, Dec 15, 2007 @ 02:50

We all know that there are two sets of rules, the written ones and the unwritten ones. The parliament could for example choose to elect a government composed only of Swiss German males, without any French or Italian speaker or any female. It would be perfectly legal. Yet, if it happened, I doubt that you would write "there is nothing undemocratic about the vote". Why? Because the unwritten rule is that you should try to make a balance between linguistic regions and genders.

So electing an UDC minister which is rejected by its own party doesn't beak any written rule - but it does break the unwritten rule that the Conseil federal is a coalition representing the main political forces of the country. And this rule was not adopted by chance: it was because after decades of political instability, the Swiss discovered little by little that it was the best way to make very different people live together.

Of course, you can change rules. But is it wise in this case? I'm not convinced of that.

Bustan_A, Dec 15, 2007 @ 12:25

This is why this is a shock for all. But their choice, to me, can be summed as follows: facing an enemy which doesn't go by the rules, either you go by the rules and loose, or you also break the rules once to reinforce them afterwards. Or to use a less agressive picture, only people who respect the rules deserve to be protected by them. But you can't spend your time going against the collegiality all the time and suddenly cry when you get kicked out of the group.
Hobbes, Dec 15, 2007 @ 13:14

(sent to me by JulianT - thanks mate)

Nir Ofek, Dec 15, 2007 @ 15:18

Switzerland is somehow a very wise formation. It proves the secret tactics on how to escape the corruption and keep the balance without letting the bad extremes happen, "resuming" a bit..
HelenaTravel, Dec 19, 2007 @ 18:42