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Disclaimers - are they valid?

2 Q's which I hope promote serious and informative A's as I'm actually asking a very serious question here.


a) why is anyone and everyone suddenly doing it even on activities that are not even dangerous?


b) is there anyone out there with legal knowledge who can verify if these disclaimers are even valid?


There seems to be a rash of them at the moment and it does seem to take away from the very spirit of glocals.  We all know we're responsible for our own safety, we all know a, b, or c isn't a mountain guide or a professional instructor or a sherpa (!) or anything else listed in the disclaimer.


As an organiser, you must surely know that you have some responsibility to your group - otherwise why organise?


I would personally prefer to see a strong group, bonding together and working together to ensure the safety (and enjoyment) of everyone, including the slightly less strong.


Isn't this more "glocals spirit" rather than the rather selfish "well, you signed up and read the disclaimer, so you're on your own mate" mentality that these disclaimers promote?


Particularly if they don't even carry any legal weight?

The text you are quoting:

2 Q's which I hope promote serious and informative A's as I'm actually asking a very serious question here.


a) why is anyone and everyone suddenly doing it even on activities that are not even dangerous?


b) is there anyone out there with legal knowledge who can verify if these disclaimers are even valid?


There seems to be a rash of them at the moment and it does seem to take away from the very spirit of glocals.  We all know we're responsible for our own safety, we all know a, b, or c isn't a mountain guide or a professional instructor or a sherpa (!) or anything else listed in the disclaimer.


As an organiser, you must surely know that you have some responsibility to your group - otherwise why organise?


I would personally prefer to see a strong group, bonding together and working together to ensure the safety (and enjoyment) of everyone, including the slightly less strong.


Isn't this more "glocals spirit" rather than the rather selfish "well, you signed up and read the disclaimer, so you're on your own mate" mentality that these disclaimers promote?


Particularly if they don't even carry any legal weight?


Carolyn CJun 28, 2011 @ 10:15
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Re: Disclaimers - are they valid?
Post 1

Can you give an example? I first thought you were talking about disclaimers in marketing, but you're talking about Glocals events?

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Can you give an example? I first thought you were talking about disclaimers in marketing, but you're talking about Glocals events?


Edward B, Jun 28, 2011 @ 10:49
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Re: Disclaimers - are they valid?
Post 2

Can you give an example? I first thought you were talking about disclaimers in marketing, but you're talking about Glocals events?


Jun 28, 11 10:49

Apologies Ed and thanks for clarifying - yes glocals events.  This is the latest one that I saw:


"You come at your own risk. I cannot be held responsible for anything under any circumstances. By registering, you accept this disclaimer."


Usually and ironically posted just after the inevitable:


"and don't forget your glocals spirit" (usually followed by an exclamation mark or smiley)


The stupid thing is that posters are just cutting and pasting other people's disclaimers (with a "cos everyone's doing it" mentality) without thinking of the consequence (legal or otherwise) of what they're saying.


Will it lead to a summer of people posting BBQs down by the plage with the disclaimer:


"I cannot be held responsible under any circumstances for burning your sausages or drinking your beer.  By registering you accept this disclaimer and you bring them at your own risk - but don't forget your glocals spirit"  Tongue out

The text you are quoting:

Apologies Ed and thanks for clarifying - yes glocals events.  This is the latest one that I saw:


"You come at your own risk. I cannot be held responsible for anything under any circumstances. By registering, you accept this disclaimer."


Usually and ironically posted just after the inevitable:


"and don't forget your glocals spirit" (usually followed by an exclamation mark or smiley)


The stupid thing is that posters are just cutting and pasting other people's disclaimers (with a "cos everyone's doing it" mentality) without thinking of the consequence (legal or otherwise) of what they're saying.


Will it lead to a summer of people posting BBQs down by the plage with the disclaimer:


"I cannot be held responsible under any circumstances for burning your sausages or drinking your beer.  By registering you accept this disclaimer and you bring them at your own risk - but don't forget your glocals spirit"  Tongue out


Carolyn C, Jun 28, 2011 @ 12:02
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Re: Disclaimers - are they valid?
Post 3

Apologies Ed and thanks for clarifying - yes glocals events.  This is the latest one that I saw:

"You come at your own risk. I cannot be held responsible for anything under any circumstances. By registering, you accept this disclaimer."

Usually and ironically posted just after the inevitable:

"and don't forget your glocals spirit" (usually followed by an exclamation mark or smiley)

The stupid thing is that posters are just cutting and pasting other people's disclaimers (with a "cos everyone's doing it" mentality) without thinking of the consequence (legal or otherwise) of what they're saying.

Will it lead to a summer of people posting BBQs down by the plage with the disclaimer:

"I cannot be held responsible under any circumstances for burning your sausages or drinking your beer.  By registering you accept this disclaimer and you bring them at your own risk - but don't forget your glocals spirit"  Tongue out


Jun 28, 11 12:02

This is excellent. I might use the disclaimer about drinking other people's beer in the future as a joke...

The text you are quoting:

This is excellent. I might use the disclaimer about drinking other people's beer in the future as a joke...


Andrew I, Jun 28, 2011 @ 13:10
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Re: Disclaimers - are they valid?
Post 4

This is getting a little silly.  Common sense should prevail at all times and not descending into this kind of mania. 


And you are right...the disclaimers appended at the end of events count for nothing and more importantly cannot be used in court.


However, in today's increasingly litigious society, it makes sense to take the simple precaution of adding a disclaimer to your events, which protects you in the event (lol) that anyone tries to take action against you for any perceived grievance...then again, can you pin headed idiots stop including disclaimers, unless necessary?

The text you are quoting:

This is getting a little silly.  Common sense should prevail at all times and not descending into this kind of mania. 


And you are right...the disclaimers appended at the end of events count for nothing and more importantly cannot be used in court.


However, in today's increasingly litigious society, it makes sense to take the simple precaution of adding a disclaimer to your events, which protects you in the event (lol) that anyone tries to take action against you for any perceived grievance...then again, can you pin headed idiots stop including disclaimers, unless necessary?


Chris Shailos, Jun 28, 2011 @ 13:36
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Re: Disclaimers - are they valid?
Post 5

This is getting a little silly.  Common sense should prevail at all times and not descending into this kind of mania. 

And you are right...the disclaimers appended at the end of events count for nothing and more importantly cannot be used in court.

However, in today's increasingly litigious society, it makes sense to take the simple precaution of adding a disclaimer to your events, which protects you in the event (lol) that anyone tries to take action against you for any perceived grievance...then again, can you pin headed idiots stop including disclaimers, unless necessary?


Jun 28, 11 13:36

Could you explain why you believe that disclaimers cannot be used in court? I understand that they may not be at issue in the case of gross negligence. However, if there is an activity where there is risk involved -- whether use of information or rock climbing, what is your reasoning behind this statement?Are you talking about Swiss law or in general?


Thanks for citing some sources.

The text you are quoting:

Could you explain why you believe that disclaimers cannot be used in court? I understand that they may not be at issue in the case of gross negligence. However, if there is an activity where there is risk involved -- whether use of information or rock climbing, what is your reasoning behind this statement?Are you talking about Swiss law or in general?


Thanks for citing some sources.


Translator, Jun 28, 2011 @ 13:53
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Re: Disclaimers - are they valid?
Post 6

I haven't seen any of these disclaimers, but then again I'm not really signing up for any Glocals events at the moment.


I can understand if companies organizing events use these kinds of disclaimers (though it might actually deter me from signing up), but if you're organizing a social thing (e.g. picnic, hike, trip) I don't see why a disclaimer is necessary. I don't think anyone would blame you (personally or legally) if you organize something and someone gets hurt or doesn't get enough food.


The only reason I can think of why people have disclaimers is because of bad experience in the past. All the Glocals events I have participated in myself were great, and I never had problems with any members, but maybe I was just lucky.

The text you are quoting:

I haven't seen any of these disclaimers, but then again I'm not really signing up for any Glocals events at the moment.


I can understand if companies organizing events use these kinds of disclaimers (though it might actually deter me from signing up), but if you're organizing a social thing (e.g. picnic, hike, trip) I don't see why a disclaimer is necessary. I don't think anyone would blame you (personally or legally) if you organize something and someone gets hurt or doesn't get enough food.


The only reason I can think of why people have disclaimers is because of bad experience in the past. All the Glocals events I have participated in myself were great, and I never had problems with any members, but maybe I was just lucky.


Edward B, Jun 28, 2011 @ 14:09
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Post 7

Well, see this, for example..


http://worldradio.ch/wrs/news/wrsnews/record-number-of-recreational-accidents-in-09.shtml


Suing anyone for anything in Switzerland is not easy. Lawyers are extremely expensive and they are not supposed to work on contingency. According to lawyers I've spoken to here over the years, even victims of serious malpractice are not getting huge awards, if they get anything at all. 


That said, for some events such as climbing and so, I don't think there is anything wrong with reminding people of their responsibility up front.

The text you are quoting:

Well, see this, for example..


http://worldradio.ch/wrs/news/wrsnews/record-number-of-recreational-accidents-in-09.shtml


Suing anyone for anything in Switzerland is not easy. Lawyers are extremely expensive and they are not supposed to work on contingency. According to lawyers I've spoken to here over the years, even victims of serious malpractice are not getting huge awards, if they get anything at all. 


That said, for some events such as climbing and so, I don't think there is anything wrong with reminding people of their responsibility up front.


Translator, Jun 28, 2011 @ 14:24
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Re: Disclaimers - are they valid?
Post 8

Just to be safe i have added a disclamer to my latest event (a beer and poker night)...

its something like "Drinking beer may make you play rubbish poker."


do you think i need this?

The text you are quoting:

Just to be safe i have added a disclamer to my latest event (a beer and poker night)...

its something like "Drinking beer may make you play rubbish poker."


do you think i need this?


Dominic A, Jun 28, 2011 @ 17:33
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Post 9

This is excellent. I might use the disclaimer about drinking other people's beer in the future as a joke...


Jun 28, 11 13:10

Andrew - please do - then you won't get sued for having a good time.

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Andrew - please do - then you won't get sued for having a good time.


Carolyn C, Jun 29, 2011 @ 00:34
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Re: Disclaimers - are they valid?
Post 10

 "it makes sense to take the simple precaution of adding a disclaimer to your events, which protects you in the event (lol) that anyone tries to take action against you for any perceived grievance..."


Thank you Chris  - but my original question relates to does it protect you (the organiser)?  I don't have a problem at all with a "simple precaution" like - wear hiking boots, bring a rain jacket, some warm clothes, your own sausages.  I wanted to know a) why everyone was suddenly doing it and b) did it have any legal justifications.  And also c) as a late entrant - was it in the spirit of glocals???

The text you are quoting:

 "it makes sense to take the simple precaution of adding a disclaimer to your events, which protects you in the event (lol) that anyone tries to take action against you for any perceived grievance..."


Thank you Chris  - but my original question relates to does it protect you (the organiser)?  I don't have a problem at all with a "simple precaution" like - wear hiking boots, bring a rain jacket, some warm clothes, your own sausages.  I wanted to know a) why everyone was suddenly doing it and b) did it have any legal justifications.  And also c) as a late entrant - was it in the spirit of glocals???


Carolyn C, Jun 29, 2011 @ 00:37
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Re: Disclaimers - are they valid?
Post 11

if negligence can be shown a disclaimer has no relevance.


http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/negligence


typical case, a restaurant posts a sign at their coat check that they are not responsible for stolen goods or clothing. even if they post a disclaimer, they  may still be responsible.


however a signed waiver by each participant may be a valid way to avoid being sued. ( now let's watch the fun begin !!! in the glocals spirit of courseSealed

The text you are quoting:

if negligence can be shown a disclaimer has no relevance.


http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/negligence


typical case, a restaurant posts a sign at their coat check that they are not responsible for stolen goods or clothing. even if they post a disclaimer, they  may still be responsible.


however a signed waiver by each participant may be a valid way to avoid being sued. ( now let's watch the fun begin !!! in the glocals spirit of courseSealed


epicure, Jun 29, 2011 @ 01:31
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Re: Disclaimers - are they valid?
Post 12

as a scottish lawyer working in switzerland this post made me think long and hard.. it is a sad day indeed when people would rather avoid litigation then enjoy living...


that said, when it pertains to  some events, i can understand the organisers being wary... SO IT'S SIMPLE  ...if you have the fear then organise the event amongst only friends (who you know not to have diabetes, be too small to ride certain attractions, no pre existing heart conditions, allergies, genetic flaws and the likes...) then, if they agree to go after filling out your questionnaire, they are true friends indeed...


a disclaimer on here is null and void


WARNING:THIS POST IS UNDERTAKEN IN A SARCASTIC AND FUN MANNER AND SHOULD NOT BE USED AS EVIDENCE IN CASE OF ANY LITIGIOUS ACTIONS :p

The text you are quoting:

as a scottish lawyer working in switzerland this post made me think long and hard.. it is a sad day indeed when people would rather avoid litigation then enjoy living...


that said, when it pertains to  some events, i can understand the organisers being wary... SO IT'S SIMPLE  ...if you have the fear then organise the event amongst only friends (who you know not to have diabetes, be too small to ride certain attractions, no pre existing heart conditions, allergies, genetic flaws and the likes...) then, if they agree to go after filling out your questionnaire, they are true friends indeed...


a disclaimer on here is null and void


WARNING:THIS POST IS UNDERTAKEN IN A SARCASTIC AND FUN MANNER AND SHOULD NOT BE USED AS EVIDENCE IN CASE OF ANY LITIGIOUS ACTIONS :p


lyndsey j, Jun 30, 2011 @ 12:26
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Re: Disclaimers - are they valid?
Post 13

Disclaimer: "I take no responsibility"


This is pretty much generic enough to cover absolutely everything.

The text you are quoting:

Disclaimer: "I take no responsibility"


This is pretty much generic enough to cover absolutely everything.


jbendavi, Jun 30, 2011 @ 13:08
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Re: Disclaimers - are they valid?
Post 14

The answer to the question is not very easy.


Even keeping in mind the spirit of Glocals, it's only a reflection of our society, with many different people, many different types of expectations and reactions.


If an event is organized in Switzerland, I may see a possibility for a participant to raise a claim in three different cases: i) the activity is subject to an administrative license or authorization and the organizer did not have such license or authorization (e.g. for the activity which is assimilated to the one of a mountain guide); ii) a simple case of wilful act and iii) an activity which could imply a contract between the organizer and the participant (for example when someone asks for a payment against a certain service).


In the cases I and II, a disclaimer would probably not change the legal situation and the organizer may still be responsible for a lack of license or a wilful act (if the organizer hits a participant who does not follow the Glocals spirit...). In the case III (contract), the organizer may exclude a liability for a light negligence, but not for a gross negligence or a wilful act.


The conclusion is therefore that the disclaimer would only serve to exclude a liability in very exceptional cases. If the activity is organized in France or in another country, different rules may apply.

The text you are quoting:

The answer to the question is not very easy.


Even keeping in mind the spirit of Glocals, it's only a reflection of our society, with many different people, many different types of expectations and reactions.


If an event is organized in Switzerland, I may see a possibility for a participant to raise a claim in three different cases: i) the activity is subject to an administrative license or authorization and the organizer did not have such license or authorization (e.g. for the activity which is assimilated to the one of a mountain guide); ii) a simple case of wilful act and iii) an activity which could imply a contract between the organizer and the participant (for example when someone asks for a payment against a certain service).


In the cases I and II, a disclaimer would probably not change the legal situation and the organizer may still be responsible for a lack of license or a wilful act (if the organizer hits a participant who does not follow the Glocals spirit...). In the case III (contract), the organizer may exclude a liability for a light negligence, but not for a gross negligence or a wilful act.


The conclusion is therefore that the disclaimer would only serve to exclude a liability in very exceptional cases. If the activity is organized in France or in another country, different rules may apply.


Per P, Jun 30, 2011 @ 13:21
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