Lawyers are expensive.  I asked a friend's girlfriend years back for some simple divorce advice and she came back with the laws and a bill for a couple thousand CHF.  There is a law service where you can talk to a lawyer for 60CHF in English and get advice.  He/she doesn't play the lawyer but can give you some basic advice on where to turn.  I did this when I was wrongfully fired although when told I had a right to know the specific reasons for my firing and sending multiple registered letters I still got the same lame excuse I didn't live up to the company values.

In Belgium if you and your wife can agree to a mutually amicable settlement then you can hive signed cheaply by a Notary Public and all's done.  don't know if that's possible here.

I only have the French website but if you call them they can give you the adress and hours of the English in the old city close to the Palais de Justice.

http://www.permanence-juridique-geneve.ch/index.php

Go to a "permanence d'avocats", I think it will cost you between CHF 50 and CHF 100 and you will get answers to your questions. (Write them down before you go, be prepared as time is money).

Thanks gents for your responses and actually I have been there to see the "permanence d'avocats" but I didnt really get any hard facts.  I seemed to get some well, it could be this, or it could be that.

Anyone else have anything to add?

steve.

it depends on how long you are married as to what percentage you pay, plus there are state minimums for kids, and depending on your costs, debts etc etc the final amount can vary alot.

re the house... if you buy her out, its 50% of the valuation price, the purchaser pays the notaries fees here... but also depends on the mortgage level etc etc... this is generally seen as part of the divorce settlement and is regulated by court, it can take ages, if she doesnt agree. Again a lawyer will help.

Going through the same myself......

if youre on chommage you can get legal aid...your lawyer can apply for you.

These people are very helpful and not at all expensive:

Collectif de défense

72, bv de Saint-Georges

1205 Geneve

022 708 00 60

Thanks Charlie and Translator for your posts.

Charlie sorry to hear you are in the same situation -

Shame there is no easy way out of these things...!

Hi.

Has just been through this! Last visit  in court was Thursday....finally  we "agreed"!

Normally, the person who earn the money  must pay between 20-25% of his/her  annual salary to his/her children until they are 18 .Here in Ch  the mother has the right to  just work 50% until the youngest child is 16 -so the father must pay an amount to the mother, which you have to agree on with the mother.

Usually the mother gets full parental authority, if not otherwise agree...

Everything you own / owe shared 50/50 -pension, shares, house ect

Hope not that you have to go through what I've been through the last 2 1 / 2 years...... I was the one that was left

Thanks maybritt.  I guess the best is to try and find an amicable solution ? 

Does anybody else have some experience(s) that they can share (even offline), as like so many other people, I'm in the same boat but would rather avoid the legal (waste of money) fees, the headaches and grief, and just get a fair deal without being ransacked.

in switzerland the "blame" of why a couple separated was disolved a couple of years back.....

so now its purely down to finances.

if you can find an amicable solution with your former partner, for child support, maintenance and split of matrimonial assets (only the things you aquired whilst married, each individual keeps the things you brought into the marriage, ie inheritance), then you can draw up a contractual agreement and have it reviewed and signed by court.

Its the quickest and cheapest way, and avoids all the mud slinging.

Approx 6 months for this route.... ie you present your wish to divorce to the court, plus the agreement of both parties, and the court asks "do you agree to divorce" you answer yes.... then there is a 3 month statutory waiting period, when youre asked again, and 3 mths after that the divorce is decreed.

if one party is unemployed , or disagrees with either divorce or the financial settlement...guess on 2 years and court and legal fees....or until youre employed again or agree....

I can refer you a good lawyer. Hope things get sorted out in a smoother way. 

Also depends upon, of course, where you want to get divorced, if you can choose.  There may be more advantageous places than Switzerland depending upon your flexibility and the state of your relations with your soon-to-be-ex. 

Some people do "invest" in very tough lawyers who are very expert in disguising/hiding assets.  I don't recommend this, however, sometimes the other party in the situation is unreasonable and/or unscruplous and it may be the only way to protect oneself.

I'm sorry for everyone going through this... I know from personal experience it is not fun to say the very least.

Thanks Maybritt very helpful.

So, just to be clear is that 20-25% before or after I have paid my taxes?

i.e. if I make 100k and pay 20k in taxes is the 20-25% based on 100k or 80k

Also, do you know how its decided if its 20 or 25% for the kids?

House calculator

Also, I have been working on a basic excel spreadsheet which calculates my costs if I buy out my Ex, my equity remaining in the house, and or if I sell my house (includes things like changes in "value added taxes" and "agents fees"

It's a bit crude and may not be 100% correct in all cases, however I think it works well and creates a clear picture.  If anyone has an interest in this, just send me a message and your personal email.

Steve,

Everything goes down to finances indeed. I agree with Charlie that the best thing to do is to agree with your soon-to-be-ex-partner on a solution à l'amiable. Whatever you decide it will take at least 6 months.

BTW, Swiss law is very tough on the person demanding the divorce although in theory they dissolved the issue of the blame. You need a lot of stamina to go through this whole process, with or without a lawyer.

@Jason: I think your advise was an inappropriate one, obviously you never went through a similar situation. If they hadn't tried all of what you have mentioned they wouldn't be divorcing. It is not children that make a marriage a success. There is a lot more to it and it is unwise to stay together just because of the children. Children are far more sensitive to under-currents than we are aware of. And they get more confused if their parents are pretending to be happy than if the parents make a clear statement.

@Jason: You are either a happily married man or hereditary to a happy family without any problems ever or you are just not realistic.

A lot of damage is done everyday to children of the world because their so-lovingly parents believe a divorce will hurt the so-loved-baby. Children can deal better with parents breaking apart than with parents in disaccord.

And we shouldn't try to decide what is best for another person but we should also decide what is best for us. Do I want to stay in a relationship that is making me unhappy and thus making my children unhappy or do I want to end this unhappy situation and thus open the way to a happier situation?

Steve:

Forget the cheaper / public-service lawyers, and go to one who focus on family law. Knowing all the legal facts from the best source will save you time and money, and can help bring things to a happier end for both sides. 

I emailed you a good lawyer who helped me, and who I found to be focused on "let's find a good solution" rather then "let's go to war".

Nir

Agree totally that not getting a divorce is the best idea.

Unfortunately, after 4 different marriage councellors and 10 years in which 2 maybe were good we thought it was time to call it quits.  She made th final move as she knew I was going to stay together until death no matter how sad our shared existance was.  Perhaps, that makes me weak or perhaps stupidly optimistic that things would oneday get better.

I was faithful till the end and sad to say but many times during the relationship I was hopeing that she would find someone else so we could use that as an excuse to split...

Overall, I am thankful she made the move as I couldnt and overall it just didnt do the kids any good to see mom and pop living like that either. 

Thankfully we dont hate each other, but sadly we just dont care about each other either.

I kinda think that some of the others on the forum may understand this situation.

Wow, JasonF!

That is some statement! This reminds me of a joke a Jewish friend of mine from Queens told me.  It goes like this:

A elderly couple go to see their rabbi.

The man says, "Rabbi, Ethel and I, well, we want a divorce."  The wife nods.

The rabbi, shocked says, "But you've been together for so many years!  Why now?"

The wife shrugs her shoulders and says, "We were waiting for the children to die...."

Children deserve to be loved unconditionally by both parents to the best of their ability.  And often times it is good for them to see that parents can respect each other even if they can no longer live together. It is a great life lesson.

Good luck, Steve.  The service I mentioned has some excellent lawyers. Inexpensive doesn't always mean lesser quality but it is useful to have many recommendations.

Hi Steeve

I have a great lawyer who handled my divorce extremely well and didn't cost me an arm and a leg (well maybe a few fingers) if interested send me a private message and I'll pass on his details.

Jason, your post is drifting away from the actual problem. As usual you accuse people instead of giving helpful advise.

If you never have experienced a failed marriage nor have children nor are a shrink nor are a lawyer you should stick to the golden rule that sometimes you should keep your mouth shut instead of giving advises such as "(...) to raise your offspring at least until 18 yrs old." What does this mean? That they are no longer our children when they reach the age of majority? That we are no longer responsible for our children from the age of 18 on?

And the examples you name are mere stereotypes.

You are only talking about "be a real man", but what about "be a real woman"?! "Be a real man" - such an out-of-date statement. Where do you live? From which century did you travel by time-machine into this century?

To Jason F,

The line of this thread is not about your family crusade, "be a real man" (is that what your photo is trying to tell the world) and all that hogwash.Try wearing normal clothes instead of army fatigues, try living in the real world and not in kiss & make-up land.

For those of us in the "separated" state of living, we don't give a stuff about your holier than thou crap, we want to get on with our lives, the sooner the better, with the least amount of cost and grief.

Besides, this is a dating site not a family counselling center.

So let's summarize the discussion so far this way:

1. If you can make your marriage work happily, of course this is the best option.

2. If you can't and you decided divorce is the way to go, get a good lawyer that will help you minimize the grief. 

Nir

Always the diplomat Nir.

Welcome to the club. A journey ahead, hold strength to your realms and look ahead in thoughts of your children growing in wisdom and growing to build a growth and permanence in life.

Its never easy for fathers or mothers, and especially the children. In my own experiences the children remained fairly unscathed as both parties remained friendly. I am sure you will figure it all out. Meanwhile, enjoy the Spring air with the children. Endeavour to share stable times ahead.

often the kids are better off when the parents are apart and not agruing, so long as they feel loved by both....

its not an excuse, but i know mine prefer when my ex and i dont argue.... and each seperate house now is a happy house....

of course two parents loving each other and together is better, but if it cant work then at least its best to not involve the kids in the mud slinging

for the record im twice divorced... life goes on, and it works... not ideal, and somewhat eccentric i admit...but all the kids are happy because everyone makes the effort for them and its way way better for them to see each parent not stressed with the other...

Adding to Nir's list:

0a. Before meeting the special someone, consider seeing a wealth manager/divorce lawyer* to go over the scenarios marriage and divorce for your economy, even if you don't consider yourself in the target group. This should complement Nir's item 2, should things go there later.

0b: Practise before committing

0c: Be wary of internet advice

0d: Compromise a little, but not on everything.

0e: Make a legalized testament, just in case.

0f: Enjoy life.

OK, enough sun today..

*I'm not affiliated with any.

Judges in the US are tossing aside most clauses in prenups as being "unfair."  

I'm not talking about prenups or mutual agreements, but about asset protection, which is another thing entirely.

It's not romantic, but it doesn't have to be, since you are doing this prior to knowing your, possibly, future ex. This way, you have, a priori, minimized damage, should this occur later*. Of course, both men and women can do this, but it is most relevant for men, as they are typically hit hardest in a divorce, in economic terms.

*I'm not a lawyer, just saying.

Guess you fowl need to protect your assets, particularly around Easter, when your goose tends to get cooked...

Translator, sometimes I think people get married just for the halibut.

Its before taxes-your (ex ) wife have to pay taxes on the money she gets from you.

Do not know exactly how they decide whether it is 20% or25% it really depends on how good a lawyer you have ,if your wife works or not and of course how much income you have.I get 25% to my boys...

Hi Steve,

Sorry my English is not so good.

You can go to "permanence juridique" for 60frs, but he can only clarify severals

You should take a lawyer anyway, tha's true is very expensive, there are several questions to resolve

I am in process to divorced, if you want I can give you the name of my lawyer even if I don't know if he speaks English. Be careful there are lawyers and lawyers.....

Nothing is the end of the world...........

Kind regards

Jenny

WOW!  All that from a single guy who “Hate(s) banal platitudes (especially of the spiritually uplifting kind” and wonders “Why does everyone's intro here sound as though they have just completed a full course at AA (Alcoholics Anonymous)...”

Im sorry to hear about your divorce.  When i seperated from my husband and only after we both had a cooling down period we met for coffee to discuss the costs of divorce to both of us and what would really be left after the legalities of the system was imposed on us.  We decided in the end to pool together and hire 1 lawyer for the legalities and split amicably any assets, debts etc.  We wrote these all down - the lawyer made it into a legal doc. and we had a cheap and very easy divorce.  If your wife can see that the children will be looked after and that if you keep your entire salary the children will benefit from you being happy and financially stable - she may just agree to an amicable divorce for the sake of the children.  If your ex-wife (to be) is willing to put her own effort into rebuilding her life after you then its only a win win for all.  Good luck to you :)

Toupie: I wish I had YOU for an ex-wife!

What you describe sounds like a no-brainer, but it's amazing how many couples can't get there cos one/both of them are still in a war mode instead of a "how to move forward while minimizing the damage" mode...

Nir

A few things;

a) Re: Jason F...although I have been going thru divorce here in CH for FOUR yrs and counting...I feel people have been unnecessarily hard on what he had to say. As well as getting far too personal on his photo/clothing. Everyone has a right to their opinion - even if 'we' dont happen to agree.

I thought it was quite refreshing to have someone that actually WOULD want to try and makes things work out "They need a mother and and a father. And you need to do whatever it takes to get your family back under your roof and your protection! Make her the mother of your children, your wife and your girlfriend all in one, and you'll enjoy old age with complete contentment."

Not enough people think like this - IMO - these days. I feel too many marriages fail as people are not willing to stay and work things out.

b) www.binational.ch/en/fragen/trennung.html  (English)

www.divorce.ch (unfortunately though it is only in French & German).

www.divorce-express.ch (dont know it, just found it)

(Or, try google page translate to at 'least' get an overview)

c) You dont know ANYONE until you get divorce i.e. how awful they really can be.

d) Check BEFORE you get married/divorced in another Country (i.e. not your 'home' Country - proceedings can be very different, translations required etc (Is it in your best interests to leave the Country before proceedings begin?!?) Things such as INTERPOL come to mind...beware!

e) The British Embassy was of no assistance. But that may not be the case of all Embassys - they should at least be able to provide a lawyer speaking your language in the area, i.e. divorce/family law, that you require.

f) Document EVERYTHING - (its ridicuous but I have only failed myself on this) yes, even TRAIN tickets if you have had to take/collect your child!!!I am finding this out to MY detriment NOW after four yrs due to the lies being told...He has only collected our child twice in 2 yrs from Geneva thereby going against the Courts decision on visitation. I now have to PROOVE that I DID actually take/collect our child! (Keep everything by email or sms where possible - horrible & unfortunate that things have gone SO far)

g) As soon as I (November 2010 nearly 4 yrs down the line) told my lawyer I had no further money at ALL to pay her legal bills. I was told to borrow it! And I said no way! Then she actually started working for ME!! In my experience if you dont know you're rights here they dont really work in your interest as would be the case in other Countries.

h) It IS beneficial all round if you can agree on the finances & visitation between you. And stick to it!!

i) In my experience a lot of what goes on in the "proceedings" doesnt follow a 'set/concrete pattern'. And much is what is or is NOT said to the judge/s. In the last hearing (Mar 2011) his lawyer TWICE, verbally 'removed' himself from the allegations being made by his client!!

j) Court hearings, Legal documentation etc = translation = more cost!

K) *Nir - it's amazing how many couples can't get there cos one/both of them are still in a war mode instead of a "how to move forward while minimizing the damage" nicely said. Unfortunately, I left OUR marital home with just the basics for our little one & pretty much agreed to everything (screwing myself as I thought it would just be over quicker) financially & visitation wise. He also wants 100% custody even these is no 'real' valid reason and travels for his work - How would this in anyway be good for our child?!?!

I moved as far as I legally could. Left my friends behind. Took on even more stress here as a single mother, finding housing etc etc However he is still not satisfied. He has had a girlfriend for 4 yrs (a little bit of cross over I imagine, given that we've been divorcing that long: )   ) I am and have been over IT since that fateful day 4 yrs ago. I just want it finished & dealt with...BUT unfortunately the 'system' here has not allowed for it. I found out last week that the HIGH court have decided that THEY are unable to decide...even though there has been mcuh supposition, unfounded/unproven allegations etc that would NEVER stand up in courts in other Countries, hacking of my email account that WAS allowed (CH data protection etc??) EVEN to the point of BRINGING up all my DRIVING OFFENCES!!! Just be prepared for the worst - I wasnt! It all adds to time wasting, more legal costs etc. The ONLY people that are benefiting are the COURT & Lawyers. Nothing new there!!

Just remember it cant & wont last forever!

I just want it over and to move on with my life...I hope some of this has been useful to those in need...

Tammy, what happened to you during your divorce is unfortunately not an exception to the rule and I am sincerely sorry for you.

Getting a divorce in Switzerland, especially as a foreigner, is a tough act. And if you are married as a Swiss citizen to a foreigner and are getting a divorce, things get even more complicated.

Law and application of law seem to differ in this country a lot from happenings in other countries. Acts judges in other countries, like hacking into your e-mail-account, like having another partner, would not approve of or would at least consider of being advantageous for you, are being held here against the offended person. And it is up to the offended person to prove the opposite - unfortunately. Wherelse they stick to the rule: Not guilty until proven guilty, it doesn't seem to be true in front of a court in this country. The most horrible thing that happens, you have to reveal every teeny-tiny detail of your life (including your most private life) and then the judge or the lawyer of the counterside will put these details in question. They will literally strip you to the bones. And that no matter whether you came to an agreement with your to-be-ex-partner beforehand or not. So, as you said: Keep documentation on everything you do, everything you say or write. Every single detail will count in the debate.

The whole thing will get complicated even more if, as in your case, one party decides to have their will. A divorce can go on and on for years - and not only that you lose money and time, but you lose hope and good sense and end up in a state of despair. And even the most willing of us not to enter a "I am in a war mood" state will sooner or later take up this position if they still have enough stamina to do so.

But, once you have agreed on something and the lawyer/s have sealed it in a document, stick to it. It is more difficult to deny something that was sealed as a legal document than just an oral agreement. It doesn't spare you the time- and nerve-consuming process of defending this agreement, but at least it is something you can always refer to in case one of the two changes their mind.

As for your defending Jason, my only reproval of his post was that it was unnecessary because if people hadn't already tried to fix their marriage they wouldn't end in divorce. And the examples he gave are platitudes coming out of "presse jaune" and beststelling books. Nobody is denying that things he mentioned can happen or are happening, but if he had nothing but a rebuke to contribute he should have better not contributed anything at all - with no disrespect to his opinion even though it is not mine. As for referring to his looks, it was him who first brought a personal aspect into this thread (presuming people are stupid and rebuking people who don't share his view - not the first time he does this in threads and not the first time he gets misunderstood).

All the best to you, Tammy, and Steve and all the other who are in the painful process of getting divorced. Don't forget above all to be faithful to yourself and to look on the bright side of life. Life is hard but we have to face it and try to make the best of it.

Jason: Decaf.  Check it out.

Keep taking the meeds Jason F you'll be ok!

Sorry meant meeds as in medication

Ah sorry again, something weird happens to my post change of "meds" to meeds whenever I post it 

Jeez. 

Well, the good thing about  all of Jason's contributions is that it seems to have brought  out the supportive in everyone else. 

Good luck with everything Steven. I don't know anything about divorce lawyers in the cityy, but I hope it goes smoothly. I think the acrimonious divorce can be more harming to the kids than the divorce itself. *shudder*

So Steven: after all the diversions on this thread, did you find out from a reliable source if there's a good rule of thumb to indicate how much the man is expected to pay for child support?

Why some women get 20 and others get 25% for the kids is still unclear, however 25% seems more common.  The difference in percenages seems to depend on the guy's income, his lawyer and or her needs.

The child allocation will be paid before he pays taxes and therefore if he makes 10,000 a month, he then pays 2,500 a month (if 25%).

So he pays taxes on 7,500 a month and she pays taxes on 2,500 a month, plus whatever she makes personally.

Wow - all I can say is that I am "officially" shocked from this forum.  Shocked in a good way that’s for sure! 

Thanks ever so kindly to everyone who has responded through the forum and sent personal messages.  I am replying to the PM messages but have a backlog after Easter…it’s heartening to know that people understand and can try and offer ways to get through it best for both sides and kids.  Going through this divorce has sadly opened me up to scores of new feelings I never knew was possible, this officially happened the first day I came home alone without my kids being there.  Thankfully, as the new rhythm sets in, everyday gets a little easier…

To Jason - I could respond further to your post, however see little point as you appear to have your opinions cast in stone (with a your either with us or against us attitude).  I truly hope that you never have to understand what a divorce is all about.  Funny thing is that, I also used to think that there were only two colors; black and white – however considering the last years of my life I am happy to say that I now am a big fan of Grey. 

Good luck all...

and to Tammy... I do believe that "blame" should no longer be acceptable in a Swiss divorce court, and "finances " are the only issue to deal with prior to divorce.,

It seems your process is longer because you are both arguing about custody of the kids... as opposed to agreeing... and hence the delay.

I was told that in order for a man to get full custody (as opposed to the mother) you have to proove your ex is either a druggie and she is on the game...or will harm the kids physically... both nigh on impossible if its not the case....

Hence the mud slinging, although a few speeding and parking offences probably wont be enough to proove youre an unfit mother... good luck with it all.

Steve...Rainbow mate... look at all the lovely colours...nothing is ever in black or white and grey is dull as ditch water....

Cheer up all..... whats bad today will be a nearly forgotten memory tomorrow, look forward to the smiles and happy times again... life always goes on, whether you like it or not.

Charlie, I'm sure would be happy to intitiate a divorce!

Holly mama!

Now I see why people are not tying the knot in this country. Its not a joke to go through the agony of such experience. But then, its also not a joke to remain single for ever... ;) I am sorry for you guys. I went through mine in Finland, but it was lot easier.

Bola

If you get divorced DONT get married again... Marriage is not a love thing its a commitment thing!! I did it twice, totally believing the ex's vows..I would have stayed married til my last breath because it was my vows that I believed in..bla bla bla

We all make mistakes some of them we take to the grave..

Unfortunately we live in a throw away world of want want want...Nothing and no one is perfect...

No one wins in divorce you are both losers and the family you have become losers too...So remember when your wife/husband is too boring to uptight no passion.. it's up to you to make it work not them..you helped them get to where they are right now...Anyway just don't do it again because the children suffer beyond our comprehension...I well and truly f**ked my children up believing in marriage!

I saw this thread title and thought "William, not already surely?"

Amazing how a post can get popular when it goes on divorce....sade actually.

Well, I'm another one:2 kids, big house sold, another one for my wife,  car given to her, moving in a flat in another town, loocking for a new job, loocking for a new life....

What I did is, finding a flat to rent for a few month in order to allow all of us to "cool" down. The goal was to have some distance....because it's much better to think about all that s...., and to take the right decision.

And don't argue saying you/she don't want to get separated because of the kids. As somedy wrote before, it's much better to have a happy separated familly as a stressed, unhappy full familly. I confirm!

An then, find the dialog and find a solution "a la miable"...and THIS is for the kids! Money is money but make soem compromiss, how care!

Let my car, let a few xxxTCHF allowing my "wife" to buy her another house BUT, she is now "happy" and my kids does have what they need.
And we have decided to reduce the pension/Month as she have like a "credit". So at the end, everything fine!   

I'm morally clean and I can sleep on my both hears, no argue, no advocate, no letters, no big deal...

Hope you can find a way in that direction..

By the way, I pay, according to the rules in BE about 16% per child=32%

Good luck mate!

Cheers

Hey! As far as I know, here in Geneva, the calculation rule for child support in a divorce is very complicated and depends on how much you earn. After you have done the very complicated calculation, you usually go with 15-18% for one child and 20-25% for two (before taxes). Of course it all depends on how good your lawyer is. By the way, I am interested in finding a good lawyer.

Cheers.

Best solution: don't get married.

For those who are married (we all make mistakes) and busy getting divorced, remember the grief and pain you are going through, never mind the financial loss.

Then when you meet another person who is intent on getting married think back at the last experience and simply say NO.

Well, I guess marrying is still very popular ;)  

Romance aside, the tax break might help, too. Nothing wrong in financial planning considering all eventualities before committing, though.

What tax breaks? As far as I knew, in Switzerland, getting married is not advantageous tax wise.

I agree on doing some financial planning before getting married. Wise advice.

Just  to add this 

"Marriage is about love but divorce is about money"

beyond that there is a great book 

"Divorce for dummies" which offers good advice mainly stating do not fight

over the kids still easier said than done 

I would read up on the topic, inform yourself, try to be civil , if you can 

and yes as soemone said get a good lawyer or try mediation 

If i were to start it all over i would definitely join a gym, start a fitness program

take up a new hobby, start doing something really good for yourself 

to help you through very difficult times, do whatever it takes as long as it is 

constructive, and improves your physical and mental health 

Lots of luck and strength on a difficult path 

;-))) sometimes, marriage is about money (sorry for the last romantics out there), and...divorce is about love...(love you don't have, love you think you deserve...;-))))

If it was to be done all over again, I would just separate during one year with temporary measures and then only, once the things have cooled off a little, reconsider the details. On the long term, being the "good one" is always a better solution.

slightly off-topic, i gotta ask...

Several responses refer to Jason. When I read this thread, I don't see what Jason wrote. Was it deleted/removed? Why? It kinda makes the whole thread, especially the replies back to Jason, a bit harder to understand.

Zonker,

Jason's post was removed at his request. In any case, it was not relevant to the question asked by the thread's originator. 

Nir

I was just reading some of the more recent posts here, and it seems the latest message coming throgh is "don't get married cos the divorce will be hell". So if you're new to this thread, I got to tell you: don't listen to that advice!

Yes, there's a risk you might get a divorce. But saying "never get married cos of that risk" is like saying "never try cos you might fail". When marriage and love work, it's the greatest thing out there. And it's worth the risk. 

In the worst case that it didn't work, you can always come back to this thread and feel at home...(-;

Hey Z - you are absolutely right.  I have been thanked by numerous (unknown) people, not just the "thank poster" but in mails and believe it or not on the street.  Forums are tough places to air your laundry if that's what you want to do, but one has to be prepared to defend one's position.

Its also a shame when the thread is twisted out of direction by contributions that are not pertinent, which kinda dampens the enthousiasm and in the case of this particular thread, compromises the objective of the originator.

Thanks Nir & Admin for holding your line in this case.

Nir,

That is a good satire. "come back and feel at home". What about "don't leave because you might come back" ???

Unfortunately, I am one of the advocates of marriage and togetherness, despite my own personal experience. But reading people's experiences here in Switzerland, it is really terrifying.

One can foolishly go into marriage thinking s(he) is in love - an aphorism of course. Yes, its great and lovely while it last. But how can we humans make it last forever? This should be the focal point in my own opinion. Unfortunately again, I am still searching for an answer to that myself.

Hopefully this thread can lead to "experiencing religion", where some inquisitive puzzled minds and brain pickings will be softened.

Regards, Bola.

what is the answer?

I dont think there is ONE answer however regarding marriage, i dont think that was the question , i think it was clear that the divorce was the option and i understood the question to have been focused on "how"

"How do i divorce thee? let me count the ways"

I think we all agreed that trying to act in peaceful harmonious ways is the best choice however the way to good intention does often go through hell

As for believing in marriage, it is like anything else you tend to believe in like santa claus for some people or Eliyahu the prophet for others or the koran it is a matter of belief, not necessary based on rational decision however i do believe that there are these days several options for people who want to live together other than marriage -

If people are not happy being with eachother there is no reason why they should stay together.

The big problem in marriage as far as i can see is that it can be a power game where one side can use the commited agreement to take the other side for granted, to act in ways one would never dream to act towards anyone else ,in which case a divorce is not only the logical conclusion but the blessed ending to a torturous situation.

Being with another human being demands a lot and not everyone is up for it

marriage, unfortunately, is seen through rose colored glasses and should be entered only after varifying that the person you are with is indeed a friend rather than a foe, a person you can reasonably get along with and a good team player, it demands a good self knowledge, reasonable moral values and compassion, traits that unfortunately are not fostered enough these days 

when one has reached a point of no return and the relationship has gone from worse to the worst the best solution is divorce.

Yes, it means that you will have to put away dreams and illusions about happily ever after but like the title of a judy blume book i recommend 

It is not the end of the world 

nor should it be seen as a failure, it is often times an awakening to move on to the next stage in life and go on a path which will take you to better places within and outside of yourself.

Therefore i do not see marriage as the high horse many make it to be

nor do i see divorce as the lower depth ,

for many people marriage is just not the way to go on so it is good there are options   

In the worst case that it didn't work, you can always come back to this thread and feel at home..

I'll jump on that offer when Glocals sets up an alimony fund for men who find themselves made less wealthy by an adulterous female and a divorce court's perverted notion of justice.

(I always knew it: why am I so stupid to work like crazy to gain my life.
There are wise women out there...)

Sorry - please ignore - just a mean reflection

?

Feeling the same when I read about all these poor husbands being ripped off by their ex-wifes...my mother should have taught me better...it reminds me I need a good lawyer...;-))))

This thread is beginning to give me a nervous twitch....

(some of us divorced guys aren't half bad, but we now cant afford to romance you girls cos we're dead broke...)

Maybe I am a bit naive but how can people divorce after having kids ? I mean, you assume that most differences would have been sorted out by then, no ? Why would differences arise after all that time it beats me. Is this a product of the Western world or is it worldwide ?

Some people naively, think having kids will change the situation. The extra effort is guaranteed to finish off what is then left in the marriage.

The more calculated ones think that if I have a kid I can then seriously screw the guy.

As to the comment if it is a western world issue,to my experience its global,

Where western world excel is screwing the father of the kid.

people divorce for different types of reasons - you obviously never been married or have kids....

I agree that Tina's post seems a bit short-sighted, but I think these personal insults are equally uncalled for. I don't know how many times I've read "You obviously have never......" in these forums.

And, before someone else digs through the forums, yes, I'm sure I'm guilty of the same. I hope not, but I'll bet I've succumbed to such discourse.

I still think it's uncalled for.

I have a suggestion for all readers/responders on this forum. Let's go out for a drink and share, support, bitch and moan and get drunk.

That's a good idea

but will it be possible?

("We now cant afford .... cos we're dead broke...")

Only the married ones.   =)

volcanic!

I guess what I meant was not having kids to change the situation but if they are already there, then why would the different reasons come up ? 

I think in China or other emerging markets eg Peru things are not as bad no ? 

how is saying 'you obviously never have' a personal insult?.... 

Talking about divorce is a very sensitive subject to most people that have been through it... so unless you have been through it I dont think one can really know what its like and why it can happen...

thats true tina, if there are problems already there in the marriage, having kids wont help the situation

'why it can happen'--we're all here to learn dear Fiona

Soooooo, all the married ones can get drunk in the nice bar and all the divorced ones can go to the Coop, pick up some half priced beer and go and sit in the park...

But on the positive side of things...  

What about the non married/non divorced ones?

ah sorry - how blonde - non divorced=married. Should stop posting while having mental overkill....

Good Idea

We are either part of the solution or part of the problem.  Depends on your perspective.

Lets take it one step further and establish an NGO in true gva spirit.

ah, well wait!!!

Non divorced could also be seperated ones, and well, seems like we have a few of those here also...

So we could organize a half-price beer in the park party for

- those divorced and/or who want to be,

- separated and/or those who want to be,

- still married but who don’t want to be (getting some tips from the others) and

- the kinda happily married couples who want to make themselves feel better by listening to all those who are bitter and twisted.

Perfect day out.  Who is ready for next Saturday???

Very good idea! What about Zen Bar. Supposed to be a volcanic place!

I have already made contact with Tonton at ZenBar.  We almost stepped in "it" but not quite.  They are open to inviting Glocals to stage an event there  . . .  Tony Montana, where are you ?????

Poster, you are unbeatable.
(Luckily we didn't step in yet!!!)

Uncle/Tonton could organise some free beers for us

Even in heaven...

On their way to get married, a young catholic couple is involved in a fatal car accident. They find themselves sitting outside the Pearly Gates waiting for St. Peter to process them into heaven. While waiting, they begin to wonder: Could they possibly get married in heaven?
 
When St. Peter showed up, they asked him.
 
St. Peter said, "I don't know. This is the first time anyone has asked. Let me go find out." and he leaves.
 
The couple sat and waited, and waited. Two months passed and the couple are still waiting. As they waited, they discussed that if they were allowed to get married in heaven, what was the eternal aspect of it all. "What if it doesn't work?" they wondered, "Are we stuck together forever?"
 
After yet another month, St. Peter finally returns, looking somewhat bedraggled.
 
"Yes," he informs the couple, "you can get married in heaven."
 
"Great!" said the couple, "But we were just wondering, what if things don't work out? Could we also get a divorce in heaven?"
 
St. Peter, red-faced with anger, slammed his foot onto the ground.
 
"What's wrong?" asked the frightened couple.
 
"OH, COME ON!" St. Peter shouted, "It took me three months to find a priest up here! Do you have any idea how long it'll take me to find a lawyer?"

Lawyers in heaven.... fat chance.

And that is exactly the kind of spirit that gets people divorced

drinking as a hobby is not a really good way to form constructive communication

a better way is dancing which has the benefit of no hangovers the morning after or nasty surprises 

I know this is going to make me even less popular but i dont subscribe to 

*vodka brings people together " though i firmly believe that the Russian saying about women all appearing beautiful after one or two bottles of vodka to be most probobly very true...

Back to the other matters;

to answer the one wondering how people dare to divorce after having produced genetic afterlife in the form of children well, perhaps THAT is nature 

it is true for polar bears anyway, they mate, then separate, and mama bear raises the cute little cubs alone on the ice

as for those fishing for candidates on this thread

yes, it is probobly true divorced men are broke however at least they kind of know they gave it a shot, tried to be civilized and please society which is more than can be said to those watching from the sideline and judging the game

It is far better to have loved, had some children , and lost then never to have loved at all and gone to the sperm bank 

though one can argue about the best conditions to raise children 

i think if you look at mass murderers etc you will not find they  did not all come from divorced families

in defense of alternative life styles

as for dating , well, i think everyone screws up but the divorced ones have papers to prove it, that is the whole difference 

Did anyone see what shawn fielding is doing online?

I read that she is fighting a judge's decision to close down her site

where she exposes all her dirty laundry, not very nice for the family 

but then again i guess she had not heard of glocals, perhaps someone should tell her and save her the heart ache

she could be a chicken and no one would be any wiser

my understandng is:

1 if  you are both uk citizens/subjects (i.e.within 3 generations of a british passport)? -  british law will apply, 

2. in the case of real estate,  local law probably applies.

3.  if your spouse is Swiss, then Swiss law will apply

4.  If you are neither of you areSwissand do not have a commom nationality, then the who ever files first gets to chose the jurisidiction.

I know a good lawyer if you need it - anyway good luck, it sounds messy

@star nonsense. that spirit doesn't get people divorced any more than sitting around at high tea with white kid gloves and a pinky in the air does.

i've seen two people who speak no common language talk to each other for hours with just a beer as interpreter. Works wonders. You should try it sometime.

i didn't see anyone fishing for candidates. well, maybe for Nir, but he's practically a polar bear himself, so it's understandable.

who on earth is shawn fielding? wait, do i care?! Hold on, let me google that. Nope, Google says I don't care.

ok

suit yourself but shawn fielding is a stunner, your lost

yes, i have seen people get very friendly after a beer 

but the whole idea is to get friendly without a beer 

it is not a black or white situation just that people who need a beer to open up 

also need a beer to do other things and without getting into detail they will find they can not do too much 

google the coorelation between the number of beers consumed and the number of years before the wife throws the man out and you will find it to corespond with my claim though my popularity will have reached rock bottom 

polar bears are the cutest creatures  on earth but i never realized they come from the middle east 

p.s. 

sorry for the spelling mistakes, i went to a birthday party last night and had one too many drinks

http://youtu.be/r-po80HqmAM

the eurovision, that wonderful institution has the answer

yes, in love for a while 

is the explaination to all the questions above  AND it covers the eurovision thread , two birds in one stone 

I agree with Zonk and Clint... a drink is certainly a good idea, although I can't do this coming weekend, kids etc...

I fully agree...let's have a "divorcing crowd drink" ;-))))

All right,go for it!... so let me know where and when....

yeah great idea :-)

@Star -- I understand you concerns about alcool, but who said that you've got to get drunk to enjoy a beer or two with friends or that having a glass in good company necessarily leads to alcoolism?

"divorcing crowd drink" => I'm in!

Polar bears are cute, indeed, but from a distance!

"cute" doesnt come to mind when thinking about polar bears....

"most dangerous ferkin animal on the planet" ...does however...

Polar Bears = indescriminate predators....

(Women = Indecrimin..... oh sod it)

@star btw, when I wrote about two people with no common language.... i was talking about a 65+ year old man talking to a 30-something man. So, "getting friendly" was not on the agenda. I was just saying that alcohol is not necessarily a hindrance to communication.

So, "Divorced Drinks!" - we gotta find an appropriate place..... "Heartbreak Hotel", "The Big D"....?

Let's say the "divorcing crowd drink" is only about people who are facing the amazingly fun prospect and new experience of having to hire someone with a huge hourly rate in order to face the Mr/Mrs Hide which has taken the place of the Mr/Mrs. Right they were sharing their life with...;-))).

Being more serious, how about sharing our hardly gained experience with the unfortunate "newcomers" into the world of shared custody and spousal support in order to try to make something usefull out of our own mess? (plus I know how to calculate a theoretic spousal/child support here in Geneva, and a few other useful things...).

Where? When?

speachless?

;-)))) Ok, I will say no more on the subject...

But I could...

Do all the "adulterous females" need to wear a Scarlet A to the drinks?   Will they be put in a corner and "shunned?" 

They have to carry a guilt-banner and then they will be stoned.
(Those without sin can cast the first stone)

he he - brilliant

Jesus came upon a small crowd who had surrounded a young woman they believed to be an adulteress. They were preparing to stone her to death. To calm the situation, Jesus said: "Whoever is without sin among you, let them cast the first stone."

Suddenly, an old lady at the back of the crowd picked up a huge rock and lobbed it at the young woman, scoring a direct hit on her head. The unfortunate young lady collapsed dead on the spot.

Jesus looked over towards the old lady and said: “Mom, how many times do I have to tell you not to interfere with my work?"

http://youtu.be/NpBpLZ3hG6M

this song says it all 

welcome to the club !

and yes Rena, i am afraid there are worse problems of divorced men 

than being broke, take it from me and listen to the stephen Lynch lyrics closely 

yes, virginia , there is no such thing as a divorced man without his unique story and some are very very special 

of course when you meet them they were all innocent bystanders who found themselves being shown the door after years of faithful service and the women are all moneygrabbing /lunatics/ cheaters/cruel sadistic sexless witches

while they , innocent little boys , did nothing to deserve the cruel fate

but then again it CAN happen this way too

If there were t shirts what would you have printed as a logo ? 

here is my idea 

"Divorcing in switzerland-divorce or death-whichever comes first"

http://youtu.be/NpBpLZ3hG6M

a song for all those great divorced men out there going on second or third round  and for those innocent souls dating them : 

or in other words, there are worse things then men who are broke 

http://youtu.be/i4asdMekPdg

and for those who had one too many 

http://youtu.be/DgAYFVHwY_c

and for those at the bar still hoping 

http://youtu.be/zDc-isaLXjc

Great, who is up for Saturday?
Late afternoon at Bain des Paquis/Terrasse?

so where is the party in bains des paquis!!

We could meet at the womens' nudist place (topless season hasn't started yet to my mind) next to the bar.

yeah ...that'll make the guys feel right at home, and help them concentrate on the conversation...

this is where I am at

meaning, single, never married?  :)

good luck to all who are navigating divorce...  tough route (as are some things in life) and the reward for what feels good in your heart is worth the journey.

fully agree..... the end game is worth the sweat.... joy can come many times in a life, but each time it feels fresher, and youre more experienced to appreciate the real thing.

just dont let history be a burden... history is a library of knowledge to be used but not carried in order to tackle the future better prepared.

If I had a penny for every time I get that question...

Good divorce lawyer Geneva:

Nicolas Mossaz
Ochsner & Associés
1, place de Longemalle
1204 Genève

Tel: 022 786 88 66 

Marriage tends to be very transient in Geneva.

David.... I'll see you and raise you!

6 years and counting...

Very disillusioned with the whole process right now.

Anyway, onwards and upwards.... 

David, Charlie:

I feel for you, my brothers.

I had a fight for 2 years, and it ain't nothing nice. Going on for 5/6 years must be really tough. I hope the battles will end soon and that the outcome will be the best possible, especially for the kids. 

For the newbies about to enter the tribe of the divorced: don't get the idea that every separation has to take years of legal battles. Many times, even when there's kids and money in the picture, the process is much quicker and less painful.

This whole thread should be mandatory reading for all the wide-eyed millennials out there contemplating marriage.

Marriage rates will drop over night...

What ever happened to true love guy? This post should be titled...bitter divorced men...I'm smelling a new group maybe? 

In all seriousness Geneva is a tough place for relationships and divorce is a horrible process, it's a good thread to make people stop and think....is that express sleeping next to me really worth it!

At last! – the true explanation of all those sudden male hang-overs and hang-ups, the poor darlings.

There isn't really "custody" in Switzerland.  There are two things being decided:

Parental authority (both parents have authority by default)
Guardianship (where the children live, often translated to 'custody' but it's not 100% the same thing)

The age of the children and the work status of the parents is taken into consideration when deciding where the children live.  It's never black and white.  It can be primarily one parent (often this is in best interest if the children if really young, such as babies and toddlers), or it can be shared, called "garde partagé".

If a couple chooses a mediator, they will often find the solution on guardianship that is in the best interest of the children, rather than one parent vs. the other. 

Yo Angie:

True love still lives on. But that doesn't mean bad separations don't happen...(-:

Are you also an ex-married?

That's no longer true. As of last year parantal authority is automatically shared between mother and father. Guard des enfants (custody) is usually given to the mother unless the father can make a good case and satisfy a bunch of criteria.

Hey man,

Looks like all your questions were answered. Just wanted to say keep your chin up. I've been through that kit kat and it was worse than being IED'd in Iraq......but you will get through it.

Stay strong brother.

Alright....I can't resist.....

Why are Swiss divorces so expensive??

Because they're worth it!