Good question about the behavior --- on another thread a few men remarked about being happy that they don't get their Wilanders* kicked in for flirting or some such nonsense.  The idea is that women in the States and the UK want to have a guy arrested if he just "talks" to them . . .

I don't think women here (at least some in Geneva) enjoy sexual harassment and/or unwanted attention any more than women in the UK and States.  As proof, I present a translation of a (wo)manifesto ;) pasted on a wall outside the Usine a couple of months ago.  It reads as follows...

To all those who think . . .

 

… that when a woman says no, it really means yes.

… that being drunk excuses their actions.

…that their friend should be excused because he is “young,” that “he is not doing so well

     right now” or that he is “not dangerous” . . .

… who dare defend themselves by saying that we women are “frustrated,” “badly screwed”,

     or “lacking a sense of humor”.

…who believe they can rub up against us without asking whether we want it.

… who believe they can shout at us or make stupid remarks just because we’re women,

…that wearing make up, a skirt, heels or a low-cut shirt allows them to try to pick us up and

     that we shouldn’t complain.

… that we are “public property” when we are not accompanied by a man.

…that if we are not interested in them, it is because we are “already taken” (= we belong to     

    another male).

…that when we flirt with them, we owe them sex afterwards.

…that sexual relations necessarily finish by penetration and/or ejaculation.

…that they insult us by calling us feminists.

 

To all those who do not feel this concerns them but should.

 

YOU CAN GO SCREW YOURSELVES AND WE’RE GOING TO FIGHT BACK!

(Polite translation)

          (accompanied by the symbol for woman with a middle finger in the circle)

 

 

*
	Wilanders (n. pl) – Testicles. Named after Mats Wilander, the former professional tennis player, who controversially suggested that world number one tennis player Roger Federer "has no balls". Typically used in a metaphorical, rather than a physiological, sense.  (www.urbandictionary.com)

 :cool:
Translator, Jun 2, 2008 @ 22:53

Woah Back!

I really wanted to have an exchange of cultural expectations between men and women and what they find normal and what they find not acceptable.

I think most men are great and many definitely need help with learning how women like to be treated. There are both men AND women who do not earn our respect but.....

I don't like the idea of rounding them all up and shooting them, it would be a shame.

Can we talk here in a friendly, helpful way???   ;)
MarmarK, Jun 3, 2008 @ 11:47

Cultural expectations are definitely learned experiences, if your peers take flowers to girls on each date you will tend to follow suit, but if this is not the case then when meeting girls of another culture when this is expected they will think you rude but in fact you are just following your own training. Do we decide which is the correct universal habit expected from everybody.. Such as paying your way , opening doors or simply smiling at the opposite sex , the nuances of each act can have a dramatic effect on any relationship.. I think first to understand before judging.
britabroad, Jun 3, 2008 @ 12:09

[quote]Woah Back!



I really wanted to have an exchange of cultural expectations between men and women and what they find normal and what they find not acceptable.



I think most men are great and many definitely need help with learning how women like to be treated. There are both menAND women who do not earn our respect but.....



I don't like the idea of rounding them all up and shooting them, it would be a shame.



Can we talk here in a friendly, helpful way??? ;)[/quote]Lovely Marie!!! :)

You wanted to discuss about how to hand flowers and people started rotating clubs above their heads!!!



May I translate? (sorry Translator! ;) )

PEOPLE! The next time you go out with Marie she would appreciate you to go and look for her at home and back at the end of the night (that wouldn't necessarily imply anything else than gratitude, friendship and a good night kiss. You must do better than that if you want to deserve more!) :D

Ciao bellissima!
Stef__Granny, Jun 3, 2008 @ 13:25

OK. So:

Pick up Marie.

Don't pick up Sarah.



(It's becoming complicated)
Stef__Granny, Jun 3, 2008 @ 14:17

Sure, let's all be friends!  Errrr --- that laundry list from some irritated women in Geneva is addressed to "all those ..." who comport themselves in those particular ways. 

It in no way says all men are the same, all men are neanderthals, or anything like that.  It just refers to all jerks who behave that way.  If you are not a jerk, it doesn't concern you.  

As for the "courtly" manners deal -- well, some women wouldn't go out with anyone they couldn't take home to their "mammy" (as Stef Granny might say :D. ) Mae West would say, it's not the men in my life, it's the life in my men!  :cool:
Translator, Jun 3, 2008 @ 14:36

My only dating rule is to ask first and avoid problems later!



"Can I pick you up at your place?"

"Do you have a favourite cafe you would like to go to?"

"Are you always this bad at dating or are you just having an off year?"



#3 worked the best for me, but I wouldn't recommend it for everyone ;)

KirstyW, Jun 3, 2008 @ 14:37

Hmm. Asking a guy out to eat - I've never done that. But I like the idea. Do guys like it? Do you pay or go dutch? Normally I never let some one buy my meal, unless I know that they would accept for me to pay the next time (and I'm interested in a next time).

Guys? Do you like being asked out by girls for dinner?
MarmarK, Jun 3, 2008 @ 19:01

Only if it's just dinner on the menu.. We don't want to be thought available for the price of a burger
britabroad, Jun 3, 2008 @ 19:19

Actually I love it!

I respect much more a woman ready to make a first step.

And I don't mind who pays the bill, but I don't like to share it. [quote]



Hmm. Asking a guy out to eat - I've never done that. But I like the idea. Do guys like it? Do you pay or go dutch? Normally I never let some one buy my meal, unless I know that they would accept for me to pay the next time (and I'm interested in a next time).



Guys? Do you like being asked out by girls for dinner?[/quote]
Stef__Granny, Jun 3, 2008 @ 23:10

Wow, SG!  You must have a very understanding partner -- does the woman who pays for dinner have to be able to sing the top ten Eurovision songs as well?  :P
Translator, Jun 3, 2008 @ 23:32

Trying to keep to your thread, Marmark, when a couple FIRST meet it's always best on neutral ground - in a public place, so that you can scarper if he (or she) has two heads or it just doesn't feel right, go right!

After that the offer to pick up can be made.... but that can take some meetings too, as one may wish for their address to remain "secret". Even number plates nowadays, as we heard from Free, can lead someone to your place.
Randonneur, Jun 4, 2008 @ 01:50

Ok, here are my two cents:



Lacking self-confidence, I am actually and seriously BLIND to eventual women interest towards me. For me and as a scientist, it doesn't exist, since I did not observe it, excepted under exceptional experimental conditions (and alcohol consumption). I'm the kind of guy that would serve a lady a Nespresso if she came to me for an autograph.



Friends around me keep telling me that it happens. Most of the time, what I get for feedback is:



(A dim lighted bar. Two friends are sitting around a table, with glasses in front of them. Low music in the background)



Friend: Hey, this girl wanted you soooo bad, she kept petting you and gazing at you with wet eyes! (polite version)

Me: Naaah! C'mon...

Friend: She was purring! (very polite version)

Me: What?!? I just thought she liked to talk about geology! Damn...



(curtain)



I'm not saying that I'm a sex symbol (I'm not on any coffee machine commercials) and that nobody can stand my oozing charm and suaveness, but please, Ladies, be explicit. Despite what people keep saying to me, for me, when a women proposes a man to sleep over, it doesn't imply anything else than snoring. I must admit I have been surprised sometimes, and wouldn't have been if the message was clearer (a candlelit dinner with red wine was obviously not enough - told you I'm blind).



I really love women doing the first step toward me. It may not look obvious, but I'm a shy guy. I joined Glocals to work on that (among others). Go Ladies, go! It's a rare and much appreciated compliment to have someone showing interest in you. And it's sexy too.



Please avoid vulgarity (leave it to my clumsiness), but be clear on your intentions. I (I can only talk for myself) will NOT be afraid or shocked by explicit lyrics (I almost fainted once, but for anticipated pleasure overload). So be kind and avoid some sentences if I'm sitting balancing on a chair, with my neck close to a table...



Another good reason is that I'm a terrible flirt. You'll avoid the shivers of shame if you take the offensive.



So, to summarize, do how you feel, but if a guy seems to ignore you, it's not that he's rude or cold, he may just be shy.



(curtain)



Syd.
Syd_Brown, Jun 4, 2008 @ 12:20

[quote]



Oh SB I see your cunning plan....play the shy, coy man ;)... you know what they say about "still waters"...:hehe:



I bet if the guys had their "ladies wrestling in jelly" function you'd have been sitting right up front growling like a tiger....:P[/quote]



I try not to look shy, I'm fighting against that. As a geologist, I can affirm that the stillest the river is, the bigger is its bed... ;) People just get surprised by the flood.



Concerning growling for women fighting in jelly, it is not my kind, unless I can fight too! I despise when men treat women as merchandise or objects.



Oh, and technically speaking, I'm closer to boar grunting than tiger growling... It's because I use my snot to seek for truffles.



Syd (oink oink) Brown



Syd_Brown, Jun 4, 2008 @ 13:27

Not sure if Syd is using the lazy man's guide to picking up girls . Telling them that you appreciated being approached seems like a safe way of not receiving any rejections when you make your move first. I think you'll find everybody is shy in some way, but if you are blind to all but the most blatent of attention, then find friends who can spot it and give a signal to go for it.
britabroad, Jun 4, 2008 @ 13:31

That's right. As an atheist, I'm not used to show the left cheek when I've had the right one slapped. It's probably a way to avoid to feel uncomfortable and make the object of my attention feel uncomfortable too.



I wouldn't say it's a lazy way, I consider it safer. I more the fishing guy rather than the hunter. A shotgun is much quicker and efficient than subtle knots and tiny hooks, but it's way more dangerous!
Syd_Brown, Jun 4, 2008 @ 13:42

 

There will alway be people who do not share/get the glocal "spirit" of helping out or giving a hand with no expectation. Ironically (in my opinion) most of them are men who take themselves too seriously. 

 

This is the 6th years that Rob organise the "feed the needy" thing. 80% of the people showing up are all women. What does that tell you....?

 

20% of something is not so bad (in my opinion).

 

Many people did write me to offer to help out for my laptop problem but ironically none were from guys. Do you think JackieChen is complaining..?  

 

The only thing left to say is that, there are some very smart and inteligent WOMEN out there who knows more than some self claim gurus.

 

:D:D:D:D:D:D  

 

 

 

 

 

 
JackieChen, Jun 4, 2008 @ 13:44

What else...
Syd_Brown, Jun 4, 2008 @ 15:54

...but with pleasure!
Syd_Brown, Jun 4, 2008 @ 15:55

Thanks for all the perspectives here! I learned a lot. I learned some things the hard way over time but the most important things are:

Respect yourself: people will treat you how you unconsciously ask to be treated.

Respect others: everyone has feelings, not just you.

Dont judge:  the "snob" or "party animal" may actually be shy! I've found that a lot of boastful guys are more shy than they let on (witness our friend Sid)  and that some "sexy" girls aren't sure anyone would LIKE to know the real person inside, so they literally mask themselves. Guys try to look beyond the masks.

Sometimes, it's strange, but sometimes we have to respect someone before they can respect themselves enough to let down the mask.

And that leads me to start another forum - about respect. Stay tuned.
MarmarK, Jun 4, 2008 @ 16:56

[quote]



How about behavior tips? Especially between cultures, when you go out with someone from a different culture from yours?



Example: How many women would like for a man to come fetch her at her flat INSTEAD of being told "Right, so meet me at Club Baslesbras at 8:00".



Where I come from, that's not considered decent.The woman will probably be walking alone across town in a nice outfit, feeling vulnerable and wishing he were escorting her with pride both to the club/ restaurant/ theatre and back, so that she feels safe and cherished.



What kind of tips can we debate here so that some ideas of how to make each other feel special come forth???

[/quote]



What happens during the date matters more in making each other special. Discovering that connection and chemistry, that honesty and humility, that mystery and depth... goes a long way in starting to feel someone special. So does getting a sense of confidence, passion and sense of humor for life.



Our focus is better served, in the long term, in substance of our conversations, the ability to tease and play, the ability to feel happier and hopeful while together. When hours dissolve, and moment lasts forever... as we sit together. Feeling comfortable with the one person, rather than feel safe from the world... helps in building a sense of being with someone special.



I would rather do all those culturally expected things - picking her up, and dressing up for the show, surprising her in little ways and the rest... after she and I are already in an relationship, than when I have no clue who she is deep inside as a person - her personality, her values, her dreams.

colorado, Jun 10, 2008 @ 14:37