Obviously you are experienced enough to know when a situation like this is about to occur.  My French is reasonably fluent but occasionally I have simply given up and reverted to them oin English saying that if they are incapable of understanding or listening then it is their loss.  I could not care less whether they understand me or not.  

This has nothing to do with Swiss.  It is a particular type of moronic person.  If you feel you must get your point accross, then you can run into arguments, difficulties.  I could not care less.  If they are reasonable and logical I might even change my poinjt of view.

One thing I do not do is waste time arguing with service providers.  I have only ever been banned for life from one eating establishment and that was for leaving a 5 centime tip together with a detailed explanation as to why.

Maybe mys action was extreme but I was inwardly satified and, being a selfish b....., that was all I was interested in     

People from Geneva are known for having a ‘grand gueule’, so it’s not surprising that you have had some bad experiences. I live in Geneva, but work in Lausanne. There’s a significant difference in behaviour between both cities. However for a polite conversation you need 2 parties, no tactics will help when one of the parties isn’t. What I learned myself (living in Geneva for more than 12 years) is also to yell once in a while, only when it’s really necessary. Just make sure it’s not getting a habit!

But please don’t get me wrong, I met many nice, friendly and polite (Swiss) people in Geneva, so it’s not that bad as it sounds!

Being able to argue effectively in a second language is a big step. You're at a disadvantage that is very difficult to over come. Either, as Paul does, switch to English, giving you the upper hand, but immediately losing credibility. Or you have to be extremely patient and insistent and repeat your point almost until they get bored. It's really hard, top marks for trying.

The only tactic I can offer is some role play. Practiced phrases that tell the other party that you are not happy and will not just accept their position. It won't work in all situations, but build up the number of phrases you can use to defend yourself.

The BBC have a good site, but most of the phrases are rather rude:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/languages/french/cool/argument_flash.shtml

It took me more than 10 years to win an argument in French, and this was only achieved by parking my bike in front of the Porsche Cayenne and refusing to move it until he backed down. This works well if you're hairy and weigh over 80kilos.

Hi Catherine,

I understand what you mean. It seems that customer service training is not a priority here or in France, so many service staff are not so good at handling complaints and overreact.

Consider the possibility that maybe you could meet them at their level and have a bit of an argy bargy. For cultural or personal reasons, they may find it more acceptable than you do to let off a bit of steam. Rather than expecting them to do it your way and have a polite, reasonable conversation, you could just follow their lead and be a little more assertive.

I've had good results with this approach, in person and over the telephone. A few strong words, eg 'this food / service etc is really bad, I expected better' followed by 'I understand your position, and I'm just asking you to appreciate mine'. My French is not good, I make lots of mistakes and often have to ask people to slow down when they rant at me. Seems to be enough though. 

I hope this is helpful. Have a go, without being aggressive. You might even enjoy it!

Amy

I think you need to define the issue a little narrower: the issue is not in disputes with Swiss people in general, but with Swiss service providers. I find that when having a dispute with Swiss friends, the discussion is just like having a dispute with non-Swiss friends. For some reason, when it's Swiss service providers, I also feel things are very tough. 

Catherine, I highly recommend reading the book "When I say NO, I feel guilty" - it has brilliant chapters on how to be assertive, but polite when it comes to (horrible) service providers. It works. Even in Switzerland.

Unless one is fairly proficient in French, it is sometimes difficult to know whether the “horrible” service provider is actually Swiss.  Many aren’t nor, moreover, do they have a very wide vocabulary in French or any other language, so even a minor disagreement can trigger a shouting match to compensate for their linguistic inadequacy.

I’ve also noticed that an anglo-saxon accent can make some employees (especially shop assistants)  uptight from, I suspect, fear that they won’t understand the customer or be understood.

And don’t let’s forget that Geneva is a tough place where you have to stand your ground to survive. Many newcomers – whether blue or white collared – find this an on-going battle, especially when they first arrive.

I’d like to endorse the advice that others have given, adding that, when you can, walk away if an argument erupts and take your custom elsewhere or at least not return to any establishment where the staff have been indifferent or rude.

Also, as your French improves, you’ll find it easier to circumvent certain situations.

Good luck!

R.

Just find an English speaking rep instead and speak with them. I have given up after three years of dealing with various agencies on the phone. I used to try the French speaking route to be polite but quickly got tired of them saying they didnt understand and putting deliberate barriers up, when I reached this point I asked my colleague naturalised French speaker to sort the problems invariable he had the same issues as you describe.

So I can only conclude that language is not really the issue more just the "culture" that they adopt this we couldnt give a **** attitude !!

I agree!

As a person born and raised in Geneva, this post made me smile not that I am making fun of your bad experiences here among us Catherine, but it is funny how I never thought we people from Geneva could seem aggressive or impolite... this just makes of me a real Genevois then I guess. So it's good we get to have these kind of feedbacks so we realize we have to work on our way of interacting with people, especially when it comes to services!

PS: if you want a tip to calm down aggressive people in Geneva and even create a connection with them, whatever happened, blame it on the TPG, since hating the TPG is the one and only thing we people of Geneva have in common.

Ines. Wrong:  I have met one person who is happy because she benfitted from the TPG changes. 

The old ones are the best :

...
2. Make things up.

3. Use meaningless but weightly-sounding words and phrases.
...

http://www.mindspring.com/~mfpatton/argue.htm

As a physicist I'd say "quantum fluctuation"

Thank you all for this input. Although I could not be considered a shrinking violet, I'm not sure I'll be able to get into public ballyhoos (arguments), and I'm pretty sure I'll stubbornly stick to French so I can be respectful (and improve), even in the face of disrespect. 

An anglo coworker who has lived here for almost two decades also thought gender could play a role, which strangely had never occurred to me. He also pointed out that the size of the place and the high cost of living could affect the number of service providers and any willingness for them to care whether I try to vote with my pocketbook.

I'll definitely try to use some of the suggestions like learning good phrases and being a bit more assertive.

Another recent thread was discussing the fact that foreigners should not try to change a place. I'll continue to hunt that balance between being a respectful visitor and sharing my experiences/expectations to move to a more respectful world.

I know there are some Yelp/consumer review sites here, and I'd love to know about more of them, if anyone has suggestions.

Thanks again - for responding and/or making me laugh.

Really? I'm mainly a scooter rider (thus the incident with the nasty auto-école yesterday), but TPG seems rather awesome to me! I've never lived anywhere with such convenient and frequent and affordable transportation.

I'll try to figure out some rants about it, though, so I can connect.

I would say that the police are also the target of general public disdain, so try blaming them too for whatever's not working.