Maybe you have one reason to leave, but you also have 134 reasons to stay. :-)

Julie
julie_06, Sep 27, 2007 @ 13:40

Leave us, I cannot agree with your decision, STAY ON GLOCALS.

Instead I believe those that have shown clear racism and insult to other members be expelled from this community. All though this is a community open to all, clear rules of respect must still be put in place and those that go against the friendly nature of this community should be kicked out.

Why should it be ruined for great participants such as SwissKiss because of an idiotic minority who think they know what they are talking about, when obviously can't tell the difference between their mouth and their anus.

Swisskiss STAY idiotic racists GO

I shall descend from this soapbox, who's next?
DJ_Symcard, Sep 27, 2007 @ 13:50

short comment: please stay
CeeBee, Sep 27, 2007 @ 14:00

Thanks Bemad, well put.

Swisskiss,

I sent you guys a personal note, and hope you'll decide to stay with us. It's ofoucrse your own decision, and what ever you decide is cool.

Here's the summary of what I sent you:

1. The vast majority of glocals members are friendly, open minded, and debate in a constructive way.

2. There will always be some members who are not like that. We do our best to kick them out.

3. You guys (Rachel and Erkan) touch many lives here, and are appreciated by so many people - incl me - for your activities and views and energy.

4. On the specific forum thread you refered to:
- somne posts were clearly not-acceptable, and were dealt with.
- other posts, I am pretty convinced, were mis-interpreted.
That's always a risk when debating 'hot' topics in writing - it's easy to mean one thing, and be understood in a different way.

5. If you want, I'd be thrilled to get together with you, and the folks who were active on the said thread, for a 'clear the air' drink (on me).

Net, you guys make a real difference here, and it would be a real shame if you decide to leave.

Nir

Nir Ofek, Sep 27, 2007 @ 14:01

above all, than my dear friend BEMAD for starting this thread... it might become useful as we share our viewpoints on it. respect.

wait for more posts to write smthng in substance...but ... now i can't see, or..i can't hear/listen, but only understand & extend my respect for that decision, both @ individual capacity & @ societally enlarged one. i am with SwissKiss anyway, whatever, whenever, whatsoever, wherever. respect.

keep "swiss" +"kiss" in your judgments to the margins they have chosen for themselves. having them back would be terrific, ... but understanding & working on things so as to limit their repetitive modes is essential in this (excuse me my sarcastic tone) relief. respect.


Good_One, Sep 27, 2007 @ 14:22

I would like to say that I'm very shocked by the comments that were made against you both. I find totally unacceptable that anyone should attack you personally like that. The ignorance and rudeness of those comments are stupefying
It was a total lack of good manners and taste.
A henious and unforgivable crime for an Englishman!
Much more than that however, it would be extremely sad if you felt compelled to leave.
Among many people on this site, you have always been very friendly, welcoming hosts, who have brought a great deal of "Joie de Vivre" to the Global village of Geneve.
I for one would be most upset if you left.
I echo Julie's sentiments whole-heartedly...you have 134, at least, very good reasons to stay!
I would say also that I have personally recieved the most cordial, warmhearted welcome from all the Swiss people I have met.
Amongst whom I now count some of my best friends....
I sincerely hope that you both feel that you could stay with us all.
Kind regards,
Phillp
phillip, Sep 27, 2007 @ 14:29

Please stay!!!
Carol A, Sep 27, 2007 @ 14:34

you're too precious to not have around in our community. Seriously, if you leave, then the ones who've made you feel uncomfortable would've have won. We can't let that happen. Your true friends stand behind you, as BeMad says, together we all support you, and each other. That's what this community is all about, non? ;)
Please reconsider, if not for the sake of future Glocalers who've yet to experience a SwissKiss moment!
youmeco
YouMeCo, Sep 27, 2007 @ 14:38

Rester ici!!!!! Ne partez pas!!!!
silverwolf, Sep 27, 2007 @ 14:52

i do with what my dear friend bemad said , but if swisskiss decided to leave so i guess that we ahve to make a pause and check the atittude of certain members before all
so i do agree with Nir_ about talking about it, know more about those bad behaviors of certain members .
busstop, Sep 27, 2007 @ 14:57

Fully agree with everything what has been said! Erkan & Rachel, I've only meet you briefly once last summer, at the party in Parc de Bastion, ...and from all what I hear you organize some of the best parties - and you two a wonderful people - you made so many people happy, pls just think back...Adel, you guys know that I don't have to say more...Pls stay and will do my best to join your next event ;-)
SWISS, Sep 27, 2007 @ 15:55

What happened to swisskiss is shocking and I can understand their decision to leave.
A good point the mail: “There is a limit to freedom of speech and that’s simply called respect.” We should take this opportunity to open the discussion on how such situations could be avoided in the future and which steps should now be taken.
I think it’s better to try to solve the problem differently than turning the back to our community. Hope we can convince swisskiss, because this case offers the chance to improve the quality of glocals.com

summermind, Sep 27, 2007 @ 16:01

No offense meant, and I don't want to go back to those old banters. But some veterans do well remember their less friendly attitudes they were remarked for too. Knowing what happened, I do personaly feel ackward seing them so popular amongst Glocal, and I decided long ago never to join any of their events any more and sticked to it as per today. For all that, seing them leaving is a releaf. And this anoucement looks to me like the usual lame fishing for compliments attempt seen in many forums: "I tell you that I'm leaving so you'll ask me to stay". If they want to leave, let them be free.

That being said, as individuals, I honestly wish them nevetheless all the best in their future.
Hobbes, Sep 27, 2007 @ 16:14

The incredible, “improbable”, as I like to call them, SwissKiss are the first GoLers (then Glocals) I’ve met. I consider them as friends (made of flesh, not the virtual ones), because since I know them, we’ve had tons of wicked parties, along with serious moments, and perhaps also because they hold secrets on me from these parties they could use to blackmail me when I’ll be rich... ;-P

Erkan and Rachel are among the more open-minded people I know. They are the kind of people that welcome and host others in their flat, with real hospitality. The kind of people that just happily greet you in the morning (after a jump of surprise, I admit) when they find out you slept over (for some reasons) and didn’t know about it. The kind of people that buy you gallons of drinks, no matter what you say, no matter how you justify the fact that you too have money… They are happy, as long as the people around feel good.

Male, female, gay, lesbian, hetero, bi, black, white, green, rainbow, invisible, believer, atheist, drunk, sober, geologist, happy, sad, dreamer, down to earth, gorgeous or not, foreigner or local, arch-villain or superhero, these two have no prejudice, and will love you, as long as you’re nice. This insult is particularly hurting because unfair.

I understand the reaction of Erkan and Rachel, and respect it for they no longer feel good in Glocals, because of, halas, “black sheeps” that don’t know them, and took the liberty to outrage these lovely people. It’s a shame.

Glocals is growing bigger and bigger, along with this expansion come some disrespectful people. These people do not deserve SwissKiss. However, I agree with the other replies, and stand on the soapbox to shout that Glocals (and the nice and friendly majority of its members) deserve such a couple, that is part of its soul.

If SwissKiss stays, it’ll be one good way to show that we don’t bend in front of stupidity, even if it’s premium grade.

Erkan and Rachel, this is for you: I love you. I hope that these few drops of bitter urine in the warm pool of Glocals will not make you get out of it (otherwise, I’ll fart in it!)

Grg.



Syd_Brown, Sep 27, 2007 @ 16:15

Dear Nir_ or Oded, please help me get my thread back in the right place (previous topic, just below)

Thanks!

Syd.
Syd_Brown, Sep 27, 2007 @ 16:16

Hobbes, sometimes you have to able to forget & forgive (nt)
SWISS, Sep 27, 2007 @ 16:26

we have to solve the problems from the roots !
busstop, Sep 27, 2007 @ 16:38

This is a very interesting debate. I noticed that the final comments of the long and heated exchange were missing. I asked whether this was because they were deemed inappropriate but I was told it was because there was a bug in the system...

I re-read all the posts I made that I still have. Yep, I offer mea culpas for the Eagle's Nest comment. Nope, other than that reference I never called anyone a nazi. I simply cited SK's reference to my father and brothers "mass slaughtering unfortunate nazis".

Now if you want to talk about civility, great lets. Then you should address the fact that people of good faith are called "attention whores" (unless that was a reference to Blocher, but I don't think so), given the address in Bern where their passport can be returned, called "pathetic." You might not think it's an insult when YOUR relatives' contribution. My relatives weren't here in Europe "mass slaughtering unfortunate nazis." (As if that phrase is not a total oxymoron!)

I also reviewed SKs other posts not concerning me. Look at them for yourself. There is a great deal of animosity there, especially when people state their opinions strongly.

Want to sanction me? Go ahead. Kick me off the site? Go ahead. But before you do, make sure you apply the same rules to everybody. Anybody who wants to should be able to criticize Switzerland, or any other country for that matter.

Lots of other people on this site have called the Swiss racist. I did not. I am married to one. Let's make this an open debate. For the moment, I'm staying until I hear otherwise. If this site is a democracy, fine. If not, fine, too.

Let me underline the fact that I have not been informed by the site administrator about objections to my comments. I'll wait to see what happens. If you the majority of you want SwissKiss to stay, I'll be happy to leave, entirely comfortable with that decision.
Translator, Sep 27, 2007 @ 16:49

I've sent my thoughts to Erkan - don't think it makes sense to post them here (especially after Greg's great post).

Anyhow, whether it counts or does not, +1 from me: I would want swisskiss to stay here, but it's up to them in the end. I will see them outside of glocals anyway, but I did like the parties they organized, and do hope to participate in more swisskiss parties. I don't need a label "glocals" on them, but the more happy people they gather the better - and glocals is a good community with many happy people available for the parties!
extremal, Sep 27, 2007 @ 16:50

I enjoy all the personalities that are revealed in the forums. Some of it gets pretty heated and insults can fly, although they should not. They do anyhow, because we are human beings and sometimes have strong feelings behind what we are saying.

The black-sheep debate got hot and heavy and I saw more persons than just Swisskiss getting their toes stepped on, being called "buddy" in a sarcastic way and being told all sorts of things, for example "if you don't like it here, leave". None of those things are very kind and I doubt we would hear them in a live debate, but then again maybe we would.

I'm sorry to hear that Swisskiss wants to leave but I wonder how many people would be on the site anymore if we all reacted in the same manner to a heated debate in which we ourselves were taking an active part...

MarmarK, Sep 27, 2007 @ 16:50

anyone has to leave. Different people/different opinions, insulting or not, whatever. Peace!

p.s. for the "hot" topics go and schedule an offline meeting - chat over a beer or coffee, it's much better. Or, if you prefer, just fight.
extremal, Sep 27, 2007 @ 16:53

..I just can't stand being next to people who insulted my friends for no reasons and called me publicly a liar while I was not.
Hobbes, Sep 27, 2007 @ 16:59

if it's a real loaded topic, discussing it on a public forum has a high risk of things not being understood right. Meet and talk (and drink).

and there's no need for people to leave the community (althogh everyone is ofcourse free to do so), as long as there's talking going on...
Nir Ofek, Sep 27, 2007 @ 17:16

:-)) u barbarian intelligent whore!!
Good_One, Sep 27, 2007 @ 17:21

I agree with Sherri.
I personally think that the best way to rise above is just
not to care and keep being as you guys are, have fun, organze parties and just don't
care about the rest (but I repeat, i know nothing about what happened) ..
but if you want to take a break from it all .. i totally and truly understand.
We will miss your great parties and we'll wait for you guys to be back.

All the best and as Dante said once "Non ti curare di loro ma guarda e passa"
Rough translation: Just don't care about them, look and then move on.
Hoiling, Sep 27, 2007 @ 17:32

What I think is despicable is saying that my relatives were here "mass slaughtering unfortunate nazi soldiers" Is that not striking to you?
Translator, Sep 27, 2007 @ 17:52

I think the point of this thread is to demostrate that there are better ways to resolve issues than impetuous decision-making and emotional commenting. Enough already. What was said is not the point and in the past. The point is how to move on from here without creating more casualties along the way.
tweety, Sep 27, 2007 @ 18:06

tweety - right on. (nt)
Nir Ofek, Sep 27, 2007 @ 18:08

I wasn't dodging your question, just looking back at the thread. It begins with Geneva is not Swiss. Please read the thread and then let's keep going.
Translator, Sep 27, 2007 @ 18:14

As one of the participants in the UDC thread I read all the posts...some were rather surprising in their approach to others, some were very well written and thought out, others were humorous in their approach...reflective of the varied community that Glocals is. That said, and going back to my comment of "surprising in their approach", perhaps we should remember that comments which may have been meant in jest aren't necessarily taken that way when written as the reader can't "hear" the tone which the writer intends to convey and, therefore, the reader tends to interpret the "tone" personally. Unfortunately, all the use of smilely faces and LOLs don't necessarily serve to take the bite out of certain postings...Final comment - respect and civility in the forums should be the site's watchwords, especially when involved in debates on "hot" topics...
Tasmin67, Sep 27, 2007 @ 18:19

I'm very shocked by the email of Swisskiss. Rachel and Erkan, you are great person, and i'm truly shocked that you received that kind of emails. As swiss, i'm very shoked by the insults (my swiss grandfather helped people refugee during the 2e world war and he's not a nazi..)
You are too nice to leave. PEOPLE WHO MUST LEAVE GLOCAL ARE THE ONES WHO SENT YOU THESE INSULTS. And the ones who are racists with the Swiss should leave both glocals AND Switzerland.

TSATSA, Sep 27, 2007 @ 18:19

Thanks to all participants! I love you guys.
Casuistik, Sep 27, 2007 @ 18:36

excuse my fashion, but i think this exchange of views gets an anecdotal, less creative or specific...

these words... i think perhaps we should hear from someone - either the "trouble-maker" (some1 condemned/accused of doing smthng.) or from SwissKiss (a final note).

please, be specific, decisive, or you have to talk to Erkan&Rachel personally... just plz, the guys took liberty in exercising their right, they realise responsibility ... i think there is a substantial gap in understanding what's happened... Erkan, plz...

otherwise, excuse me,... but i am now bored :-(((
Good_One, Sep 27, 2007 @ 19:06

Can not get a full picture of this episode!
wayne, Sep 27, 2007 @ 19:08

Ok folks let's get over with this stir.

First be all assured all of you and other St-Thomasses here that we don't need to beg praises, flattering or ass-liking (thanks Hobbes, always loved ur cynicism). We can merely & simply buy it. This said, thank you for all your votes of confidence. We don't make Glocals, not even magic does. YOU ALL make Glocals and we want to thank YOU ALL for creating magic everyday.

Some of us simply take pleasure in channeling this magic into parties, mountain-climbing (we are in awe looking at the pictures), 5am roller-blading and other sexy-dinners (still curious to see pics from that one though).

Now about leaving... we noticed a clear change in the global tone voiced through Glocals and that tone makes us feel uncomfortable not because of the nature of the matters thrown in but because we believe Glocals should be a uniting forum, not a dividing arena where despise and contempt for the hosting country is voiced at leisure by some attention-craving people. The unveiled suggestion to "go observe the eagles and check our closets" just comforted us in that feeling.

Besides feeling hurt at being unfairly assimilated to sadly-known barbarians (not you Greg) simply because we love this country, we feel the global trend is in heated up polemics rather than fun & conviviality. Hence our decision...


Whether we remain or not is not going to change your lives nor ours but it is true that we love partying with you all.

Now, let's these feelings marinate in a good night of shameless alcoholism and Que Sera, Sera...

E&R
swisskiss, Sep 27, 2007 @ 19:08

.. ready to settle an argument by wrestling in an inflatable swimming pool full of Jell-O...



I wish.
Casuistik, Sep 27, 2007 @ 19:13

Hi Swisskiss.

I too hope you guys will decide to stay, but I'd also like to reply to your point about glocals.com uniting instead of dividing.

glocals.com members are pretty diverse. We are Swiss, American, Israeli, French, Chinese, Spanish, African, German...

With so many different members, and so many different opinions, there will be disagreements, arguments and sometimes insults (which we will deal with)

I dont think that the best way to unite all these members is by banishing any critisism of any country in the forums.
I think that by voicing opinions, and discussing them with people who may not agree with us, we unify people.

In the case at hand, a certain thread in the forum got out of hand, and both sides said some things in the heat of the moment.
I've spoken with you guys, and I've spoken to the other affected party, and I don't think any harm was meant.

Peace and Love

Oded

SiteAdmin Oded, Sep 27, 2007 @ 19:23

Agree.
Indeed I would love if we may join together in a winerie somewhere in town to host some good discussions together about the RESPECT between members (Nir, all, any idea here?) and then to ahead in a good place of shameless alcoholism and Que Sera, Sera...
After that event and after all such support from so many people that you must recognize are just the proper mirrow of our Community, shall u stay with us your act may be seen just as a concrete sign that you also respect what most of your friends wish you do... however shall u still decide to leave it will be only up to you and I will be fine with it!
BEHOPEUSTAY :-)

BEMAD, Sep 27, 2007 @ 19:28

Sorry to hear the news and I hope you decide to continue your membership of Glocals. I know we have not met or spoken before, but via mutual friends I have heard plenty of nice things about you and the Glocals events you arranged. (Good reviews travel fast and were even a conversation topic here in Zurich!) The postings above from Nir, Sherri and others do offer a very good solution to help resolve the issue and I hope it works out well. Kind regards, Phil

(Sorry to say I was not following the discussions that led to the dispute, so unable to comment constructively there, but fingers crossed for a peaceful settlement.)

phil, Sep 27, 2007 @ 19:45

.. no clue why Hobbes needs an apology but if it makes him happy then there is

WE APOLOGIZE
swisskiss, Sep 27, 2007 @ 19:51

Let's not pretend everything is perfect. I hope we can take this chance to discuss and solve some issues .. but in the end .. it's Swisskiss choice. But thanks for raising the point! Well said Summermind :)

Vale
Hoiling, Sep 27, 2007 @ 20:32

I do understand the reaction of Swisskiss since I am swiss as well and also was upset with some of the topic and conversation I saw...

I was thinking that Glocal is a site for "meeting poeple" and facilities. I am disapointed to see here some political conversation, also "sometimes" from some people who does not really know what do they speak about since they all don't know the swiss system that well...

I mustly perfer this site for : meeting nice people ! and activity...
Danni, Sep 27, 2007 @ 20:39

I thank the site administrator and all those who have expressed their opionions on Swiss politics.

I do not consider it "attention-craving" or "troublemaking" to discuss Swiss politics. I am involved and concerned about the community and the country I live in. If anyone saw the documentary on the International Red Cross' behavior during WWII last night I am sure you would have been shocked too about what has come to light since 2006. These are real issues with real people. My mistake was in the intensity of my response in a forum where there appears to be some real hostility against people who criticize this country, my adopted country.

I have no problem with anti-American sentiment. I criticize my country and its government on a regular basis. So do others all around the world. I am not, as I said before for the sheep posters being removed because I believe in free speech and free debate. I believe that the majority of my posts have been direct and free from insults if not sarcasm.

But I see that even in the most recent response, my esteemed "opponent" has continued this type of response. Some issues need attention and I have no problem addressing them. But not if it is counterproductive.

I apologize for using the "Eagle's Nest" reference because even if someone feels that my relatives were "mass slaughtering unfortunate nazi soldiers" I did not need to underline my belief that there were ever an "unfortuate nazi soldiers." I was shocked beyond astonishment. There were perhaps some "unfortunate German soldiers" but I will never understand how anyone can use the the term "unfortunate nazi soldiers" even in jest.

But that is no excuse for my response. And I apologize again. As we used to say in Catholic school -- mea culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa. What I am happy to learn is that this debate appears to have revealed the depth and breadth of some ways of thinking that I wouldn't have thought existed in Geneva's international community...

Clearly this site is not the place for political debate about what is going on in Switzerland and Geneva. That's too bad. Especially because it could indeed make Switzerland, Geneva, and the international community stronger.

Game over....
Translator, Sep 27, 2007 @ 20:43

This is just my personal position on this subject and it is mainly based on my personal experience... that may be different from any of yours indeed! However...
Generally I do believe that in most of times discussing and comparing different standpoints & positions is one of the most valuable time and manner people can spend together! since all parties involved may always take some benefits out of it...However in my life I have experienced several times that there are some general topics - namely the preferred football team, politics, religions, cultural behaviours, death penalty, abortion... - that may provoke fighting, misunderstanding and personal offenses! :-(
The main reason for that bad evolution of such dibating is that sooner or later people with different positions may start to try to convince the other parties either to challenge or to chance their own position, while this is almost impossible!
Positions for those specific subjects are within the roots of any individual identity and very seldom they may change... either you accept it or you will end fighting!
That's the reason why I rarely touch these subjects generally! Surely all of my friends know that I am a supporter of the Italian Team (hehe)...but after that none knows what I do think about the other subjects as well... I know that whatever position you may have, there may be someone else that just doesn't agree with you and that may start thinking of you differently... why should I do that?
My understanding is that none can make another person change his standpoit on those topics... Only a cultural change may lead some evilution... but that may take a long time as usual and that cannot take the time to listen to other people for a while!
Then I would better propose to organize workshop or seminar or meeting really interested into above specific subjects i.o. leaving members to start misunderstanding or in worse case to offend each other with no discipline and respect!
Once again...this is my own rule for my living and for respecting too!
BE2CENTS :-)
BEMAD, Sep 27, 2007 @ 21:42

i dont know anyone else who could organise such whacky parties as the blonde party !!! and we certainly are in dire need of whacky parties in geneva....
please stay
addaxnat, Sep 27, 2007 @ 21:50

I'm extremely bittered to see discussion turn so childish, immature and offensive in here.
I'm extremely bittered to see that some fellow Glocalers are unable to maintain an adult discussion in a community that was born to make geneva more friendly.
I'm extremely bittered at seeing judgements expressed lightly at a whole country, or at a whole generation (your parents did this ... my parents did that ...).
It's not our parent's time anymore. It's our time! And we should all be grown up enought o deserve it! Offending a whole country (that welcomed us all, after all) as fascist is not mature. Insulting the memory of people who died rather than trying to understand and learn a lesson is not mature.
But also running away from a whole community because somebody insulted you is not mature.
Also giving up on all the people that did not insult you is not mature.
I think it is time to make a step back.
Talking politics is interesting... insulting others is not.
I hope all this crap will blow into smoke and we'll be able to remain all part of this community, each with their opinions that we'll go on confronting.
But I hope from all this quarrel we all will make a step back and learn that the interesting part of discussing is what you can learn from others, not how you can impose your own to them.
I hope this will be an opportunity for all to grow up, because it's grand time!
And I'd like to see this happenign starting from you: Translator and SwissKiss!!!
Meanwhile I'm extremely bittered!
Stef__Granny, Sep 27, 2007 @ 22:02

If people read my previous post, they will see that I apologized for my remark. I am not sure how many people here realize, though, how offensive it is to be told to leave Switzerland if I want to criticize Switzerland. I would never, ever tell anyone to leave the States if they didn't like the government -- citizen or not. Again, it is probably a tempest in a tea pot.
Translator, Sep 27, 2007 @ 23:14

Synopsis:
) Insults were exchanged on an equal basis.
2) One person backs out but not at all quietly, NO! She makes a dramatic pouting exit and drags as many people into the story to create a witch hunt against Translator.
3) A lot of people jump on the band-wagon and refer to translator as an "idiot" whom SK should rise above. Why? Because the whole thing was adroitly set-up to happen just like that.
4) Notice any apologies to Translator from the part of Swisskiss? Oh no! Because Swisskiss is an innocent victim here who only dispensed sweetness and light. Just because some of you know Swisskiss and went to her parties doesn't give her the right to start a witchhunt on someone she has already been openly insulting. Has Translator become the literal black sheep of the story? How poignant.

Debate without insulting each other. If you want to leave, do so quietly without slamming the door and trying to pinch as many fingers in it as you can. I honestly hate melodrama.
And next time someone sends a private email, would the recipient please keep it private?
MarmarK, Sep 28, 2007 @ 00:24

It was not critics, it was profanities.
Saying "swiss are not funny" or "swiss are slows" it's critics, nothing bad...it's acceptable.
But saying "swiss are nazi" it's not a critic, it's an insult.
Personnally, i won't live in a place where nazi live. And if i insulted a nation, i won't live in this nation !
Holocaust is the worst thing that happened with goulags. Treating someone of "nazi" it's
a very horrible thing and very grave...

and saying this to friendly people like Swisskiss is not acceptable...

TSATSA, Sep 28, 2007 @ 00:29

RESPECT to the site administrators
I agree that the site aministrators have landed themselves with a huge responsibility which must take incredible resources - manpower and thought that goes in to judgement calls - to manage, and that they do, so very admirably. I admire them hugely, and thank them for their hosting of debate and proactive discretionary intervention to limit hurt.

Respect too to the community that is Glocals!
I also think it is important to acknolwedge the huge potential the Forums offer to offend, intentionally or unwittingly, knowingly or obliviously, gravely or mildly... And this potential we all need to manage, as we converse. And without the face 2 face this is harder, as we all know. And even with it, misunderstandings are part of daily life, even if we don't realise just to what extent, and they don't happen to generate ill-feeling/confusion... So unless anyone actually MEANT to hurt somoene's feelings to the extent they would feel like leaving the community, surely that must count? Ultimately, is it not what you MEANT / your intent that should count more than what you may actually have sent as a message? And that is not to say that clearly respectful communication should not be strived for from outset, but we all have different perceptions of respect, and offense... interpretations of most any word! But 'sorry' has to be one that is less ambiguous than many. And I can see more than one mention of 'sorry' and 'mea culpa' in the above thread. In then name of respect for each other, the community at large and freedom of expression can't you all STAY!!! Accept beers, chat offline, or whatever it takes... but don't anyone be leaving! Please!
SimSim, Sep 28, 2007 @ 01:07

There was not a bad guy and a (two) good guy! There was two counterparts quarreling like kids. I sincerely appreciated the step back of Translator and her apologies. It showed she understood she had let herself drag by passion and she said nonesense she won't say again.
I hope she will not be the only one to have learnt the lesson.
There must be two hands for a handshake that marks the end of this unfortunate quarrel. And around them there must be a group of friends who are learnign the lesson with them, not two teams of supporters, shouting for one b*lls**t or another.
Can we all stop taking (equally stupid) sides and try to be that group of friends?
Stef__Granny, Sep 28, 2007 @ 02:10

Now. Can we stop trying to find out who's the bad guy?
They both behaved stupid. I'm waiting to see them all apologising, holding hands and stopping playing the victim... and the rest of us stop throwing gas on the fire, taking sides that were both wrong.
"Who was more wrong"? Would finding that out lead us anywhere further? I doubt it!
Stef__Granny, Sep 28, 2007 @ 02:18

well said mate ,lets stop all this ,otherwise we are reaoting the same mistake again..

busstop, Sep 28, 2007 @ 03:28

Hopefully not you!

wayne, Sep 28, 2007 @ 04:01

I do not feel comfortable that some private messages exchanged being re-distributed to one’s “friends network” and predictably, intentionally or unnaturally, or at least, has resulted in a pretty much one-side leaning witch hunting as Marmark describes it onto a member whose “public posts” can be openly and meant to be publicly examined which I personally consider as fair, good faith, well-written, good arguments, informative and substantially contributing to the whole discussions.

Even some exchanged fires being accused as insulting were from both parties. As Oded said and we can also tell “No any insulting or harm was meant to be from one particular side.

In principle, those private messages are not in public domain, should be resolved privately. Only posts appeared in the forums, if controversial or insulting, need some VERY mild interventions from administer and mostty from community members who express different opinions on these controversial issues. This way, a health, dynamic and self-regulated community norm can be naturally established.

I refuse to comment on private messages and am glad that I did not receive this message since I do not think I am in any stance to comment on it.

For those people who are friends of one party, especially for those who did not follow previous debates, if your support is only based on friendship or are grateful of great parties being organized, les’s say “partyship”, I salute to your friendship/partyship. However, be a friend with one side does not provide any substantive base to be against toward another side (of the debate). We neither need to reassure friendship by sharing friend’s rival. To urge your friends to stay in a friendly community like Glocal is normal. However, nobody asks anyone to leave. It is clearly their own decision.
wayne, Sep 28, 2007 @ 08:12

I am concerned that the discussion atmosphere will be shadowed by this episode in the future.

Translator has offered her mea culpas. However I see no any substantial reason that the apology should only come from her side. I am not advocating any more arguments on who is wrong who is right…But I do not see this one sided apology fairly conclude this storm in the teacup.

If in a fair, good faith, and open discussion expressing one’s opinions and experiences in a certainly debatable topic, not meant to insult anyone (Oded has called both sides and confirmed us that there is NO intentional wrong doings from both sides as we can also see from the whole thread… not just taking several sentence out of the whole debate from both sides), has resulted a scenario like this, being called racist, idiotic, urged to be kicked out of the community, even the country, felt hostile from the majority of which who are friends of the other side of a dispute! and needed to offer an apology? What kind of example we are trying to setup here?

Something is wrong here!

Are we no longer defending freedoms of expression, tolerance if not appreciation of different opinions… Are we expecting people to be self-censored so some sensitive, popular and swiss pride defensive members would not leave the community?

NOBODY has ever asked Swisskiss or anyone to leave and nobody needs to leave unless they want to. I would love to see them to stay too.

BUT how many posts implied that Translator should be kicked out? (So your friends can stay! Does anyone need to go or what?).

Translator obviously feels the hostility from some members here. (“Want to sanction me? Go ahead. Kick me off the site? Go ahead. But before you do, make sure you apply the same rules to everybody.If you the majority of you want Swiss Kiss to stay, I'll be happy to leave, entirely comfortable with that decision.”)

What did she do to deserve this??!! NOTHING!

Being a foreigner in any country is entitled as much as any national to criticize that country/culture. Unless you tell me that holding a piece of paper from local makes you different from me in this aspect.

Those publicly asked and urged someone to leave, to be kicked out, implied obviously who is an idiot or racist…, after thing being cleared that no significant wrong doings/insulting from both sides … OWE a big MEA CULPS to Translator.

I urge you to do so if you think you have jumped to the conclusion too fast.

I also disagree that for the sake of “let’s all be friendly friends”, let’s all stay” we need to compromise any core values which we should always actively defend for this community – that a individual’s freedom of expression, innocent till proven guilty etc. Gosh! Some easily aroused hostile posts toward an individual member without solid base. Unbelievable!!
wayne, Sep 28, 2007 @ 09:20

For someone who's leaving, what a fuss, isn't it? I really start wondering if you're not addicted to being the center of attention and ever really considered leaving for good.

And as I, sorry, can't accept appologies for facts that have not recognised first, here is how it started, to help you remember:


TINKIE'S POST

"Member Activities

On that topic, more important than deleting a post or not, i have a question :
I mean I have sent a couple of emails to Swisskiss (since everybody knows we are talking about them, why not mention their name??) asking them to react on the forum and explain to us why they asked everyone who wanted to go to their activity had to be part of their network. And the answer was : 'I dont think they are talking about us, very strange, very strange...'
So I mean, I think they are free to answer or not, but what i dont understand is why this is not controlled. Some people did not go to the activity just because they didnt want to be in the network of somebody they have never met before. And Nowhere on gol it says you have to be in sb's network to join an activity, why should you? SO THE QUESTION IS: WHAT IS THE SITE ADMIN DOING ABOUT THAT?? SHouldn't this be controlled more?? Couldn't you tell them something?? that it's not the way you are supposed to organise an event on gol!


SWISSKISS'S ANSWER

"You r making a fool of yourself as usual

Dear frustrated Tinkie,

Everybody here are amused to read your pointless and irate noise. And now to everybody's joy, you have crossed the subtle boundary between sensationalism and obnoxiousness, besides that you are openly making a fool of yourself (which is your entire privilege).

1) Claiming that we "reject" people that refuse to be in our network is 100% untrue. Therefore you are a petty liar, and that is really really despicable...

2) If someone is kept uninformed of party details, that is because this person simply does NOT qualify as "friendly". That has happened only once, two with you now .. lol

3) As organizers, we are fully entitled to choose who we wish to laugh, drink or sleep with. Neither of these eventualities apply to you :)

4) We have no obligation whatsoever to justify anything to you, but if you need more verbal "butt-kicking" we would gladly oblige...


Nobody here really understands the origin of your irate posts. As it is, we don't mind if you pleasure in making a fool of yourself but personal aggressions shall not be tolerated!


Get yourself a life!

Swisskiss"




Funny enough, when you think about what's happening those days, to notice that Tinkie didn't ask for the post to be deleted, nor left - or pretended to - the community...
Hobbes, Sep 28, 2007 @ 11:22

Tempest in a tea pot, sums it up quite nicely, lol :-)
Sylph, Sep 28, 2007 @ 13:14

Just when this thread was starting to calm down, and appologies for all past insults were passed around, another feud from the past is brought up, and now everyone can start the he said, she said debate again.

Hobbes is not willing to accept SwissKiss's appology. Ok. Bad things happen sometimes, and some disagreemnts will not be solved today.

Can we please move on?

Oded
SiteAdmin Oded, Sep 28, 2007 @ 14:01

Hi Translator.

As I said to you on the chat - 4 days on glocals.com and already a celebrity...

I think it takes a big man (or woman) to appologize, especialy when the appology is one sided, and in the face of alot of hostility.

As far as I am concerned, you meant no harm, you applogized for your post, and all is well in the world.

I hope to see some more interesting posts from you in the forums, and I look forward to meeting the woman behind the words at a member activity soon.

Oded
SiteAdmin Oded, Sep 28, 2007 @ 14:05

Agreed
phil, Sep 28, 2007 @ 15:22

Sure, people can and should be able to set the rules for the parties/events they plan. That said, if someone questions a rule, a polite answer or, if the method of questioning appears rude, a dignified silence, rather than a scathing attack should be the way to respond.
Tasmin67, Sep 28, 2007 @ 15:46

Thanks Wayne, Marmark & Archie - totally agree with you! nt
SWISS, Sep 28, 2007 @ 15:50

And why are you attacking him? For private parties you don't use a website with over 10,000 members in it, there are other means of communication.
Sylph, Sep 28, 2007 @ 16:02

i can't let Tinkie and Hobbes take all this in silence.

i was the one who once wanted to join one of Swisskiss' events last year and was asked to join their network in order to make the participants' list. in those days, we didn't have a 'reply to selected' button in the inbox, so maybe that was why, but i couldn't see why i should join someone's network before joining an activity, so that was it. i know other people who were baffled too, but who ended up joining.

Tinkie made my concerns public, which i didn't mind, but i really don't think she should have received the rude reply she did.

but as far as i'm concerned, that's ancient history now. i have much better things to do with my time and i think maybe everyone should just drop this.
Minda, Sep 28, 2007 @ 18:05

next week I'm coming back to Geneva after 3 long weeks spent in Italy ...
are we going out to drink something somewhere and overcome all this with a big smile?
Tuesday?
have a great weekend :)
Davide
giglio6973, Sep 28, 2007 @ 18:07

Hi all,

Well I guess I should spout my humble opinion. SwissKiss I hope you don't leave! I have just bought an outrageous set of sunglasses and am dying to wear them at your next party :-) (Sorry we missed the cowboy party as we were on holiday). Anyway, I hope you don't make a quick decision. Give it a week and let the air clear. Whatever your decision, I want to thank you for your contribution to GLocals as you have brought people together and made the community more fun. There is nothing funnier than the comments on pictures you guys post.

I am an old schooler on GLocals and have seen many changes. I have made friends in every "wave" of new people, and I just think that's cool. Am sure that if anything, you would probably miss that. GLocals has changed many of the lives on the site for the better, enabling new comers to quickly integrate and make friends in Geneva and elsewhere, and bringing together a diverse set of backgrounds. You are part of that and you should be proud.

For everyone: Let's not forget what the spirit of this site is all about, a bridge to meeting new and interesting people (and it's FREE!!). You aren't always going to like everyone, but you don't have to.

Ciao,
Rick

pntbreakrick, Sep 29, 2007 @ 17:57

You are not leaving! it is an order!
Where am I going to take my pictures!? No Way!

I dont care about what has been said in all of those forum messages, it is just bullshit to me!

You stay and better tell me where is the next party! yeah!

We all are going to die soon man, dont make me loose my time!

I love you swisskiss!

Hey I am still out of town now, but you call me back!

Hey and for those politics members, and their messages, just send them to me; I promise I will read them in my next another life! I promise!

javieryep, Sep 30, 2007 @ 06:14

Reasonable voices look rare these days!
Therefor even more precious than usual! ;)
Stef__Granny, Sep 30, 2007 @ 14:42

A lot has been written in this and related threads. Most members, including me, do not have the time to respond to all the comments. A few seem important. One issue is whether to continue participating in Glocals - something that Swisskiss has pondered on. May be others here will face this question sooner or later. Here are some thoughts.

I too faced the Swisskiss moment - stay or move on - few months ago. My decision was to stay.

- This is a personal decision. Life is rich and beautiful regardless of whether we stay or do not stay.

- Our decisions should consider those we like, those who like us, and those who have given us moments and memories to cherish. Stay for future moments. The past, the present and the occasional strange posts do not define those who cherish you and who are happy that you are part of this community.

- The decision to participate should consider those whom we have never met, yet. After all, haven't you met folks within the last two years who have added fun and charm to your life? Isn't it better to assume that there are wonderful friends you have yet to discover, friends who are trying to find you, friends who might add beauty and depth for the rest of your lives? Stay and participate for them.

- Glocals is merely a community - it will be what we make of it.

- For all it is worth, I confess: I love Switzerland and I love Swiss. I find it strange when I read sweeping statements such as "Switzerland is XZY or Swiss are YZX." I do not understand this or the authors, or comprehend the basis for such sweeping generalizations. Such views are wrong. Such views are as wrong as any stereotypes about anyone based on gender, religious beliefs, etc.

- I agree with Riley and others. I too want Glocals remain neutral.

colorado, Oct 2, 2007 @ 13:01