The Red Pill is way over-rated.

I know a few people who believe in these 'New World Order' conspiracy theories and from what I'm seeing, this new-found 'knowledge' has only made their lives more miserable.

They still have to live in this world, interact with other people, earn a living... and this belief that its all a big 'matrix' does not help them in any way.

Maybe it's all true, but before you embark on this journey, make sure you are ready.

Oded

SiteAdmin Oded, Oct 8, 2009 @ 14:38

 Well Oded, now you know one more person who is awake and who recognizes the lies told by the media, organizations and governments. I embarked on this journey a year ago, informing myself and researching as much as possible, weighing what is true and what really isn't.

This rabbit hole is indeed very deep and not for all, but if one thinks they are smarter than the others, then that person must analyze these "theories" to generate a personal opinion, and not just brush it away because it is "weird", not politically correct, or will disturb their yuppie lifestyle. It could be called due diligence.

The belief of the big 'matrix' you refer to does not hinder my life at all. I am not like Mel Gibson, a paranoid  "conspiracy nut". I would rather qualify my being awake as a lifesaver, but I won't know this until it happens, no? Observing, analyzing and rationalizing is what I do best. I am critic, until I know how things work and why. And to do this involves putting one's nose in this stuff.

Qui m'aime me suive...

Patrick, Oct 8, 2009 @ 15:01

The really enlightened mind knows that David Icke is a plant from the Bilderberg Group. Sure, he started something 20 years ago, but they soon got to him... Everyone has their price. He is working for them, goddamn it! Isn't it obvious?!? Icke is spouting all this horseshit to divert the attention of the people who were on the right track before, and alienate the rest. To take those that could possibly have exposed the world for what it was, and lead them not just up the garden path, but all over the flowerbeds. He's a decoy! The whole shape-shifting reptiles from Mars thing: that's just to cover up the fact that the real planet was Saturn and really they are molluscs. Every 85 CHF to Icke is 80 direct to the NWO. PM me for the real truth; I fear I have already revealed too much here.

hayes, Oct 8, 2009 @ 17:16

I think one can care about the world, and about others, without believing that a secret group  of bearded men secretly rule the world.

Yes - alot of bad stuff happens in the world, and yes, the media seems more concerned with ratings than with the truth, but focusing on the big conspiracy theories sometimes makes people forget about the 'small' stuff they can do to help.

Volunteer around your community, help clean up your neighborhood, feed the needy...

And while you are doing all of these things, if the New World Order is sitting around rubbing their hand in happiness - who cares?

O

SiteAdmin Oded, Oct 8, 2009 @ 17:55

 
Cock-up before conspiracy...
rmike, Oct 8, 2009 @ 22:21

Was chatting over the weekend to a doctor friend in the UK. Apparently there's been some completely scientifically unfounded and sensationalist publicity about the measles vaccine possibly causing autism. This is selling newspapers and leading to children being at risk from brain damage or worse as worried parents refuse the vaccine to their children.

I don't know much about Icke's views but I consider theories such as those he seems to propose matters of faith rather than fact; they always seem to be adaptable to fit any possible situation and hence impossible to disprove regardless of what happens. But if you want to believe in this stuff then fine.

But if, as seems to be being indicated above, he is actively campaigning against vaccination I think that's pretty reprehensible and I'm glad that he has the reputation that he has - i.e. being a total crackpot.

rich_t, Oct 11, 2009 @ 16:11

 Oh rich_t, it's like you know what gets to me... the antivax lobby is right there; top of my podium of human beings that probably deserve to be slaughtered. Or at least locked up somewhere very cold.

It's actually the triple childhood disease vaccine for measles, mumps, and rubella; MMR and this started with the Wakefield report. Prof Andrew Wakefield conducted a statistical examination of autism rates vs. children that had taken the vaccine. Parents were noticing what they thought was a correlation because signs of autism typically become noticeable and diagnosable at around the age when MMR is administered in the US and UK. Wakefield reported a statistical signal an parent groups went batshit insane. It later turned out that he had fabricated evidence and all the co-authors on the article apart from Wakefield denounced the study. Since then there have been any number of large scale clinical studies that report no correlation whatsoever between MMR and autism. A professional misconduct case against Wakefield is under way in front of the General Medical Council but it's a legal disaster.

Furthermore, at best it was an argument from correlation. There is no known mechanism for MMR to cause autism. The parents' groups -- looking for somewhere to lay the blame -- started claiming it was the result of poisoning from mercury in thimerosal,  the antifungal agent used to preserve MMR. However, thimerosal was removed from MMR vaccines in the US and (of course) there was no change in autism rates.

Now it's utter madness. The lobby is fueled largely by media scum in the US: Oprah Winfrey, Jim Carrey and his dumbass wife Jenny McCarthey (she has a kid with autism). Check, for example, the Jenny McCarthy Body Count. These are people with incredible money and media presence and clout with the public but not a single shred of intelligence/education. Obviously none of them have a clue about immunology, how vaccines work, or what herd immunity is. How not vaccinating your own kid isn't a personal choice but it puts other kids (and adults) in danger.  Vaccination rates have dropped below 80% in some regions of the US, well below the limit required for herd immunity. There have been significant outbreaks, particularly of measles in the US, the UK, and Australia (where the antivax lobby is strongest). To the point where in some territories in Australia, they bribe parents with a hundred and something dollars to vaccinate their fucking children. I tried to find out whether the recent outbreak in Valais (or was it Vaud?) could be linked to antivax pressure, but I failed.

And yeah, of course it's the kind of thing that makes government-control conspiracy theorist come in their p... very excited. Any excuse to throw some crap at an invisible high power controlling agent... Anyway, yeah. Er, right. This is the one that drives me mental beyond pretty much every other one. And there are a lot of things that drive me mental. At least David Icke is ignorable.


hayes, Oct 11, 2009 @ 17:15

Oh, sorry, I googled David Icke MMR and found out he wasn't as ignorable as I thought... he should also take his share of the blame for those deaths. 85 CHF... you're going to give him that?

hayes, Oct 11, 2009 @ 17:23

 My theory, whatever worth it is: David Icke and the rest of these conspiracy theoricians are just creating their own media pool so as to display their own vision of BS.

I quite agree with Hayes. If Icke and his kind were the least sincere, they would not be be displaying their stupind Adsense Websites for the past  ..... years, or else they would be doing something of Value ? A kind of an honest trade ?

Best remedy against conspiracionnists  ? IGNORE THE HYPE.

In French we call them "Oiseaux de malheur" hahaha, I mean ignore all of them. Or if you must know, read BOOKS written by researchers not professional sensationalists ... and do not forget to look at the beauty in the world while you still can.
Matina S, Oct 12, 2009 @ 12:20

 they would not be be displaying their stupind Adsense Websites for the past ..... years



Heh, exactly. Or similarly, in the case of Icke, they wouldn't have to found their own publishing companies in order to get their books published**. That's telling enough in itself.


[ ** Yes yes yes, I know, the big publicists are in on it too... ]

hayes, Oct 12, 2009 @ 12:37

 :)) It's so that the reptiles can get away with global warming.

As any such topic of WOO HOO it doesnt have to mean anything. Just put two words together that would mean something in another context and "voila" you have something that sounds serious. :)) Eg. living & vibration.

More Woo Hoo;
Homeopathy,
Chinese Traditional medicine (eg. no two ancient acupuncture human diagram is the same... wonder why)
Scientology
etc.

You'll find lots of silly phrases that cannot be explained. :))
Susie, Oct 12, 2009 @ 14:34

OK _marina_ , kinda sorta...

Sure, independent music publication is a nice example. Such a successful one that a whole scene grew out of the word independent. And yeah, there are plenty of examples of musicians that, failing even with the indies, became their own labels. I agree. The same thing exists in literature too, but less flattering than indie, it is called vanity publishing. Which of course that is also brilliant, and even necessary.

However, there's a difference, isn't there, between publishing art for the sake of art, and publishing misinformation and fantasy under the label of fact for the sake of swaying the public, and one's own vanity. Creativity and fiction are necessary, while misinformation is nothing but damaging.

hayes, Oct 12, 2009 @ 16:34

Homeopathy is another brand of hilarious. The law of infinitesimals is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard. Indeed it's probably best to avoid talking about it since it's also rather dangerous -- the less said about it the better. It's the kind of false medication that people believe has helped them to overcome things they would have recovered from anyway. That's exactly where the danger zone begins: when people start believing there is something in it and become reliant on it when something serious is wrong with them; it delays diagnosis and treatment by professionals. No significant study has shown homeopathy to be any more effective than placebo.

If anyone bothers to look up what the law of infinitesimals is, the reason why should be quite apparent: homeopathic remedies are water. The one thing about homeopathy that really *is* interesting is that when it was used around 200 years ago, it *did* find positive results; better than those obtained by the medical profession of the time. However, it's also important to remember that it was only around 100 years ago that doctors started curing more people than they killed. Thus getting people to drink water was better, on average, than sending them to doctors who tried out all kinds of crazy stuff.

I was actually very surprised to learn this, but yes, acupuncture is the same. For a long time I genuinely thought there was something in it. Defining a control study for blinded acupuncture studies is very hard but consistently "real" acupuncture is no more effective than sham acupuncture (sham acupuncture being needles stuck in the wrong places). One of the arguments acupuncturists put out is that the sham acupuncture finds the real spots by accident... I guess that ties rather well with Susie's point that no two human diagrams are the same.


hayes, Oct 12, 2009 @ 16:34

 hi,
bt what's this order all about 4? ...4 people like a handful who want that earth should run in there orderly way ??

...let everybody enjoy the best part of it LIFE !!....n live and let live !!

~arpan

arpan, Oct 12, 2009 @ 17:12

Hayes, can you
explain with it works with animals if it's just placebo ?
color="#585755" size="4">
The statements "I use it successfully on my cat" and "my friends use it on
horses" are anecdotes. They are not evidence. The burden of proof is on the claimant. If you
can find evidence to suggest that homeopathy works on animals, then I would very
genuinely be interested in seeing it. I'm sure the veterinary profession would also. I don't
need to see anything about the mechanism by which it works, that's way too complicated.
Just come up with a statistical trial. It's super easy to study, moreso in animals actually than
humans thanks to the ethics clearance required for clinical
trials.
Now acupuncture is about energy (sorry) it
doesn't need to be just *exactly on the good
point*
style="font-size: 14px;">Yes, it's about "promoting the
flow of chi" which is arbitrary enough as it is. But puncture sites are not decided at
random. 
hayes, Oct 12, 2009 @ 17:15

 @arpan

An answer to your question (from Wikipedia) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Order_%28conspiracy_theory%29

"In conspiracy theory, the term “New World Order” or “NWO” refers to the advent of a cryptocratic or totalitarian one-world government.[4]

The common theme in conspiracy theories about a New World Order is that a powerful and secretive elite of globalists is conspiring to eventually rule the world through an autonomous world government, which would replace sovereign states and other checks and balances in international power struggles. Significant occurrences in politics and finance are speculated to be caused by an extremely influential cabal operating through many front organizations. Numerous historical and current events are seen as steps in an on-going plot to achieve world domination through secret political gatherings and decision-making processes."

One sees the dots and can connect them, or one doesn't see the dots, or cannot connect them. It's a choice.
I prefer observing and being aware of what "might" be going on behind the curtain. I way much prefer that than being completely blind and categorically refusing to see things in a different light (than the glow of the TV)...
There are just too many signs out there to ignore them.

I throw a bone to all of you:
On the 7/7 attacks in London, the guys were supposed to have blown themselves up in busses or metro. How come they were then shot by Police in the nearby streets?
There is a definite contradiction here, raising questions regarding the official story.

Patrick, Oct 12, 2009 @ 17:43

 @bedrock

So what's your point?

Patrick, Oct 13, 2009 @ 09:49

Give the guy a break..
If he wants to go and pay 85 SFR to spend a
day being made to feel a fool, a powerless pawn in the grand scheme of omnipotent power
magnates, then why not let him?
After all,- now that we
christians (or jews or any other western creatures) have given up religion and have nothing
more omnipotent to pray to and fear, we have to replace it with something, dont we?

Personally, I'd rather spend the day improving the lives of
myself and my own field of power.. without the kick of fear mongering breathing down my
neck..
If the 'illuminati' really were so powerful, how come they
are so unsuccessful?All any world leaders have achieved in the past century is
that we actually CAN cooperate (some of the time), instead of permanently warrring and
fighting each other all over the place.
This is the longest period
of peace in history (for the usually notorious majority 1st World countries)
ever..Is that really so bad?
And here is a story for you Patrick: A color="#993300">n old Cherokee chief is teaching his grandson about life. 
"A
fight is going on inside me," he said to the boy. "It is a terrible fight and it is between two
wolves." 

"One is evil — he is anger, envy, fear, sorrow, regret, greed,
arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, self-doubt, and
ego." 

"The other is good — he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility,
kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and
faith." 

"This same fight is going on inside you — and inside every other
person, too." 

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his
grandfather, "Which wolf will win?" The old chief simply replied, "The one you
feed."

Jana Cyberia, Oct 13, 2009 @ 10:56

 Oh, let me try that again.. color="#993300">An old Cherokee chief is teaching his grandson about life. 
"A
fight is going on inside me," he said to the boy. "It is a terrible fight and it is between two
wolves." 

"One is evil — he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance,
self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, self-doubt, and
ego." 

"The other is good — he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility,
kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and
faith." 

"This same fight is going on inside you — and inside every other
person, too." 

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his
grandfather, "Which wolf will win?" The old chief simply replied, "The one you
feed."

Jana Cyberia, Oct 13, 2009 @ 11:19

 Ok, colour-failure,-give up.  Hope you can read it anyway..
Jana Cyberia, Oct 13, 2009 @ 11:21

 @ Isa, as if the Media was not making money as well out of their lies they promote as truth.

For the moment my knowledge of David Icke's beliefs did not cost me a cent, except maybe my internet connection and time to watch his lectures. But money really isn't the issue here. I studied philosophy and enjoy good and well argumented talks about who we are, where we come from and where we are going in this world. This is why I decided to attend this conference even though I don't agree with all what Icke has to say. I'm not trying to convert people to different beliefs, I'm just pointing out this event and asking if people would like to go with me. That's all.

crankpot: "A noun used to label someone who is having a terrible, horrible, no
good, very bad day. Someone who is depressed or angry, and pretty much
an all around Bitch."
Patrick, Oct 13, 2009 @ 13:13

 "Studied Philosophy  ? are you implying I have not ?"
No, have you?

"or that you consider having studied philosophy this makes you superior  to other posters on this thread ?"
No, just giving the reasons of my interest. Are you trying to get somewhere with this comment?

"Your use of the word 'bitch' for the 'fruit and nut case' I was referring to - has not
escaped my notice .........were you trying to tell me something .....:)"
Again no, not trying to insult anyone. I didn't know the word "crankpot" so I Googled it. The first (and only ??) link http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=crankpot returned the quote.
Or did you mean "crackpot"? If so, I agree Davic Icke can be called that, just because he IS an "eccentric person, especially one with bizarre ideas" (from http://www.thefreedictionary.com/crackpot) but this doesn't mean he is wrong.

Patrick, Oct 13, 2009 @ 14:19

Hi folks

I think this is actually turning into a pretty interesting discussion, and if we can keep from insulting each other it may continue to evolve.

I'd like to pose a question to anyone interested in replying, and, again, I don't mean to insult anyone here - just interested in seeing what you guys think.

If, instead of inviting people to a conference about the New World Order, someone had posted an invite to a conference about Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or some other religion - would the replies also be so strong?

There is probably alot more proof of the existence of the New World Order than there is of God, yet alot of people who would never consider believing in the NWO have no problem believing in God.

Based on past experience, I have to include a warning here –
I don't want this to turn into a discussion about religion and whether or not God exists.

My question is –
Do you guys apply the same burden of proof requirement to religion that you do to theories about elitist world rulers and UFO abductions?

Thanks

Oded

SiteAdmin Oded, Oct 13, 2009 @ 15:06

@ Isa - my question was:  Do you apply the same burden of proof requirement to religion that you do to theories about elitist workd rulers and UFO abductions?

I don't see any connection between your reply and my question, so I'll assume my question was not clear, and rephraze it.

I'm not asking you to prove or disprove religion, I'm not asking which religion is better, I'm not asking if you believe in freedom of expression, and I'm definitely not asking whether or not you have pink pills at home.
 
My question is:
Why do people find it easier to beleive in God / religion than to beleive in theories about UFOs or New World Orders?

O

 

 

SiteAdmin Oded, Oct 13, 2009 @ 15:22

 Oded,

I will try to answer... but it is a very difficult question, so I'm quite sure I will fail.
Disclaimer: My answer might offend someone as the question is quite sensitive. I apologize to anyone who might feel offended. I deliberately don't provide examples because these could trigger sharp responses and derail the thread.

"Why do people find it easier to believe in God / religion than to believe in theories about UFOs or New World Orders?"

Over centuries people who couldn't rationally explain special events and phenomenons turned to an invented "higher being" who could be thanked or blamed for those happenings. Religions and gods were now created. Then some people became the "representatives" of these religions, gathering followers. They themselves became warshipped. They became powerful too. Money became an issue and they used force or intimidation to fulfill their human greed. They created laws and dictated how people should behave and live. There were repercussions if the laws were broken. Religions became the way of life of billions of people. These ways of life became the "accepted" or "socially accepted" way of living. People didn't really question God or religions; they were scared to do so -- scared not to be accepted in their society. Over the modern years the laws loosened up and tolerated challenge and criticism. Today the idea of  "believing in God" is nothing new, wars have been fought over it, and the World is now more or less free to believe what it wants to. It is easy and accepted.

Now, believing in UFOs today is not generally accepted and still described as a 'conspiracy nut' activity. This is because nothing or nobody is trying to convince us that they exist, but rather that everything is done to discredit UFO concepts and stories. So people follow those that say UFOs don't exist to stay sociably accepted. But there are human "abductions", people have seen UFOs and reported their sightings. Proof is there but it is discredited on purpose. It is easier to say that they don't exist.

I think that the same argument can be made regarding the belief of a New World Order coming to shape. It is not socially acceptable to think that "they are out there trying to get us". But once more and more people don't worry about that, bring more proof that cannot be refuted, then I think that we will have reached a tipping point and that it will become acceptable and tolerated to think that the NWO and UFOs do exist.

Oded, any comments? Does my answer satisfy you or did I fail?


Patrick, Oct 13, 2009 @ 15:37

My question is:
Why do people find it easier to beleive in God / religion than to beleive in theories about UFOs or New World Orders?

I think the simplest answer to this is that -- at least in terms of the raw numbers -- that the bulk of religious people are brought up, from their first day, to believe in a certain system. If you take the 3 or whatever billion religious people, I would guess that almost every one of them follows the religion of their parents.

I'm sure, of course, that there are a lot of people brought up to believe in government conspiracies too. The extreme libertarian families at least indicate this, and government coverups go hand in hand with this... it's probably the same with politics. But with religion, surely that's the main thing, innit? Families.

hayes, Oct 13, 2009 @ 16:38

Thanks for the great replies guys.

I've always been fascinated by religion, and by what makes people believe in some things while rejecting others. 

Some people say that religion is based on faith, and therefore does not require proof, while others say that the proof is all around us and we just need to open our eyes.

I'm currently reading a book called 'World Without End' (its a sequel to 'Pillars of the Earth).
The story takes place in the 13th century, and this whole subject reminded me of a passage in the book where a woman is accused of heresy because she suggests that medicine might be more effective than prayer for curing an ilness.

That passage, and the replies to Patrik's post, made me wonder, again, whether people who reject UFO theories due to lack of proof apply the same burden of proof to other things like religion or faith.

There are no right or wrong answers here - just people's opinions, and how well they can articulate them.

Thanks again

Oded  
SiteAdmin Oded, Oct 13, 2009 @ 16:47

 well Oded, for me it is simple:
as there is no real proof of god, or
for a lot of what Icke is purporting, I believe in none of it.
not that I
think there exist only things which have been proven. far from it.
I
simply dont see the need to believe in any of it, it seems to not serve me any
purpose.
personally I think Icke actually believes what he
preaches, - I have met my share of private gurus here and there,- but if I dont think it is useful
furthering our human development, I will dismiss it until it is..

Jana Cyberia, Oct 13, 2009 @ 16:56

TA couple of things come to mind about religion and conspiracies that they have in common:
1. both provide insight into the real way things are beyond how they just seem. Although religion provides such insight on matter such as existence, causation, life and death, conspiracies on a more mundane level of human activity. Maybe that's why more people believe in religion.
2. Those who see themselves and are seen by others as the gatekeepers to this hidden knowledge probably get a massive ego boner out of it
3. Neither phenomena is getting 85CHF from me!

rich_t, Oct 13, 2009 @ 17:24

 Bertrand,

Now we're talking!

You ask the exact questions I'm asking myself: what if... we or some human civilization come from aliens visiting us in the past?... Very far fetched idea I agree, but we have to ask the question until we have an answer.

In my research on the subject I came across a few documentaries describing at length what Wikipedia describes here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_astronauts

"According to Ancient astronaut theories, intelligent extraterrestrial beings (called ancient astronauts or ancient aliens) have visited Earth and this contact is connected with the origins or development of human cultures, technologies, and/or religions.

Some of these theories propose that deities
from most—if not all—religions are actually extraterrestrials, and
their technologies were taken as evidence of their divine status."

Now could it be true? There are some real artifacts of the past that point to this theory. There are also some stories, real or not, pointing to the same. These stories ended up being simple traditional tales passed down from generation to generation by the elder keepers of wisdom in different cultures and civilizations. I would argue that The Bible we know today comes from such ancient tales.

But where do these tales come from? From actual events that happened in our past and survived the times? Maybe... Brushing this idea away would be a mistake.

Now regarding He/She/It God, Universe, Nature, Life, the Whole.
You are right Bertrand, saying that we can't know Him.
I will be bold here: could it be that this power is in fact Satan, Lucifer or however you want to call it?

Patrick, Oct 14, 2009 @ 09:38