well-organized, expensive, conservative, poor footballers.

not only expensive but offers less quality for higher price and that includes everything: food, ski resorts, hotels, clothes, service etc..

I live in geneva and try to spend my money only in adjacent italy and france.

People are too reach and spoiled and don't want / don't need to work and earn money anymore. (restaurant can close sharp at 22.30 and kick you out) and it's not adapted to other people, who work and want to spend they earned money (i can't go shopping because the shops are closed when i quit the office, i can't go to beauty salon for the same reason etc..).

No efficciency and everything is extremelly slow...

what else? Some positive things?

ok. the level of life is high, swiss salary is fantastic and low criminality

:)

@Maria: I am surprised you are still living here, everything looks so perfect and convenient in adjacent italy and france :D

@Bertrand: I like it here. I like the fact that clerks are considered people with real lives too and I appreciate they go home after 6/7pm and enjoy Sundays playing with their families and going to the lake. Yes, some times it is inconvenient you can't buy groceries at 2am but I wouldn't want to be person managing that store either. There are good and bad things, of course, but after living in 5 countries (3 continents) I can say this is the place I enjoy the most. This is obviously personal and being considered antisocial probably helps a lot in a country where people are independent and respect your privacy.

In case you haven't noticed I am kind of tired of people who can only complain about the city. For me, it doesn't make any sense to stay in a city you don't like when there is like a thousand different cities out there.

I totally agree with Leo.

After also having lived on three continents in various cities, the only city I like more than this one is Boston. It is expensive, and I think that turns off a lot of people who are expecting an accessible high life experience. What I've noticed instead is that there are plenty of places and things to do that are not expensive or are free that are incredibly rewarding. Having to search for them makes it even more rewarding, in my opinion.

I also hate how much expats complain about the criminality. These people have obviously never been to a developing country or even a US city, where robberies, daytime assaults and murders happen all the time; and if they come from a developing country, placed unfair expectations on how safe Geneva is. It is still a big city, and every big city has exactly the same problems. It's very unfair to assume that Geneva/Zurich and similar places have next to no crime. Because they come in with these expectations, they let their guard down and stop using common sense (which is how most pickpocketings can be avoided!!), and in that regard, I almost don't feel bad for them.

I think it would help expats enjoy the city more if they lowered their expectations about safety, to about the level you can enjoy in London or Sydney. No one is shaking in their boots when they visit these places (unless they are in Hackney :p). Also, stop expecting the city to hand you everything on a golden platter-look for fun things yourself or make them happen. That is what is so brilliant about glocals.

Long boozy lunches are expected. Superb.

Bertrand, your country is fabulous. Honestly!

Before coming to Switzerland, I was working in Paris and seriously considering moving to Canada or the UK. The company I was working for was also considering a few locations where to move their European headquarters. I believe Hungary was on the list. The candidate location had to be appealing as they were trying to avoid massive resignation as it happened at the American HQ when they decided to move from California to a remote and lost small town I will not mention the name... When our boss announced Switzerland was chosen, I remember hearing a lot of sceptical comments from my colleagues... Used to the cultural and night life of Paris, they were picturing themselves talking to cows out of boredom and despair!  Talking to the same colleagues two years after the move, they almost all fell in love with Switzerland praising indefinitely its quality of life... with the exception of the same complain over and over again about the early closure of shops and administration... but hey they couldn't help being French after all complaint is one of their national sports since the French revolution ...kidding.

Two years ago, I was planning some vacation in the Lake District and here's what my boss, who is British, told me: "Why on Earth are you going to see lakes and mountains in the UK when you have the most gorgeous ones just here!!" I never get tired of the beauty of the mountains and the view on the lake.

Well, just as my colleagues, I fell in love with Switzerland. I find the Swiss administration the most efficient compared to the ones I have experienced so far (the Italian administration being probably the worst... actually no sorry, the one in Morocco beats it). The amount of possible activities to do is great (water and mountain sports, festivals, concerts, theatre, bars etc.). I personally prefer the area of Morges-Lausanne-Montreux (maybe more relaxed atmosphere) to Geneva.

I've made friends with a number of Swiss people. I don't find them less open than anyone else... maybe because I spontaneously talk to people without waiting for them to start the conversation with me. I very much appreciate the fact that a lot of things are still based on trust. For example in Canton de Vaud, you can buy flowers, fruit directly on the field or a chicken in a farm and leave the money in a box without anyone controlling. The Swiss are strict on the rules but for me it's more an advantage than an inconvenience.

Maria, check the opening hours of your closest Migros or Coop. They often have one late-closure day of the week (around 8:00 or 9:00 pm). Otherwise, I think a lot of people go shopping during their lunch break.

As for administration, you can do a lot of things by email or online. Try asking... and if that doesn't work then... try to look on the bright side of life

Well, i will talk more about the country because I find Geneva nicer and liberal than other cantons so nothing much to say.

I like switzerland's beauty, cleanliness. 

I find the people bit cold, they don't smile much. NOT ALL!!! I have some fabulous friends too.Things get worse in conservative cantons like fribourg. I find geneva, zurich, Bern and Basel better.

If someone asks for direction, rather than helping them in broken english or some other ways; they try to escape. On this issue, people from other european countries are better

They are bit too proud about themselves, rich, swiss bank, watches. It's a turn off because we all know that and we admire that, when you boast; it loses its virtue. Germans are better in this, they lay down-to-earth even though they know they are the best in technology, exports etc. But probably it's because of Hitler history. 

All in all, it's ok but human values and human communication can be much better.

We won't be able to agree on this because our different backgrounds give us  all different points of reference. What I (as a Dutchman) consider good service is interpreted completely differently by someone from the US or Japan. Some might find the high level of regulation comforting, while others might consider it suffocating. 

Perhaps another way to ask Bertrand's question is:

How is your experience in Switzerland different from what you were expecting, and how did your perception change during your stay?

For me my experience matched my expectation quite well, and surprises were minor. The refusal of Policemen and civil servants to speak English was quite shocking, especially considering Geneva's international environment. 

The refusal of Policemen and civil servants to speak English was quite shocking---  YEA! people in other countries are fooled by the wrong impression of switzerland in this regard, including me. I thought most of them could speak english. Turns out that's not really the case. Also, i don't understand belittleing ENGLISH, and showing great respect to Roman, when the population speaking english far outnumbers roman speakers already. If the country wants to reach new heights, the government officials should consider this issue more.

Saying that, at least, in trains, general info, websites; i happen to find in english too :-)

All in all, a nice country but can improve a lot in many aspects.

An observation not linked directly to the question at hand:

Each time someone here writes less positive stuff about CH, he/she are attacked by others for not living the life, not making the effort, being a complainer, etc. See the example with Maria on this thread.

Folks: relax. It's OK to live in any city or county and still point out some things that one doesn't like about it, especially when in the context of a forum thread that asks exactly for open opinions. Every city has some good things and some less good things, and what you love is maybe what others dislike. IE: someone loves the fact that shop owners in GVA can have a life, while someone else hates the fact he can't do his shopping on a Sunday. 

Bottom line: relax, don't take the replies personally. 

Nir

Personally, what I consider more shocking, is the refusal of foreigners living in Switzerland to speak the local language and expecting local civil servants to adapt to them.

I am not sure what the policy is for local city employees, however in my experience just yesterday I came across a council worker communicating in English with someone who didn't even make any attempt to say anything in French, not even bonjour, or 'parlez-vous anglais ?' but just started off in English and expected to be assisted. What a sense of entitlement.

Sajade:

Speaking about GVA only: there's a mis-alignment between Geneva's formal position of wanting to attract more multinationals (who employ expats) to town, and the fact that basic public services in town are often not trained to deal with expat folks who don't speak the local language.

If I travel to a city that doesn't actively promote itself as a haven for expat companies, I wouldn't expect local officials to accomodate any English. But in a city that works hard to attract expats, I'd have a different exectation.

Nir 

You call it a 'sense of entitlement' that foreigners expect to be able to speak English. I know you're not speaking for all Swiss, but your response highlights a difference in attitude compared with (some) other European countries. In The Netherlands most people do their best to make foreigners feel welcome, and the first step in that is being willing to speak in a language that they're comfortable with. 

I can't speak for all expats, but many of them make a serious attempts to learn the local language. But if you've ever tried you will know that learning a new language after you've left school takes a lot of effort and time, and doing so while also working full-time and adapting to a new environment is very difficult. 

Shocking, Sense of entitlement!! hahaha.  Bro, you need to broaden your thinking a bit. It's nothing like that!

You have to be careful here. There are specific civil services where international language requirement is mandatory- Policeman, Fireman, emergency, military -- IN EVERY COUNTRY, they are trained to speak basic english. It's a different thing they forget in time due to lack of practice, BUT they are expected to help the person who cannot speak the native language somehow. They shouldn't expect the needy to speak in their local language. 

Imagine a guy came to switzerland 3 weeks back and is learning french taking courses.. if there's a fire in his house, do you expect that he calls to fire agency and speak in french?

A guy who comes to switzerland for business tour for 2 weeks. Takes a car to see around beautiful switzerland. Do you expect him to speak german? Hell no!

I thikn there are good points on both sides of this discussion about the language issue... still I thikn a little "bonjour" "excusez-moi" "parlez-vous anglais" "merci beaucoup" is really the minimum  in ANY country. I've experienced quite a bit of rudeness in Switzerland (and I always spoke French but with a VERY strong accent in the beginning). For ex: once when asking for directions I had one guy say in a rough voice "we speak French in this country" and I replied politely, "actually I AM speaking in French but if you can't help me, thanks anyways I'll ask someone else (in french of course)". The guy softened up right away and even seemed ashamed. The best response to rudeness I find is politeness... then they are alone with their rudeness. And well I've had some other negative examples... but in general, I thikn when you add the simple pleasantries and make that minimum effort it goes a long way to getting ppl to respond kindly. And apart from those very few bad experiences like the one above, I find Genevans VERY friendly and helpful. But I've understood that those formalities are very important in this culture and I thikn it's always important to adapt to the country you are in.

Geneva is great anyways. I love it here! ;-))

Re: About Swiss policemen/civil servants that dont speak English. I agree it would be nice if they did. But come on. Switzerland has 4 national languages whereas most other countries have one. Its difficult enough to learn 3 languages, english obviously is not a priority for them. We need to learn one and we find it difficult. Imagine them...

To Nir and Edward Boon, I can understand your points of view. However, I decided to call my local 'poste de police' to ask them what the policy is, and they confirmed that there is no requirement for English in order to enter the police, at any stage. In the view of the policeman I spoke to, there was a distinction to be made between the politics of attracting businesses, with favourable tax rates and so on, and local city administration. He also said that if he were to travel to England or another country and had to contact the police, he would do so in the local language and would not expect them to deal with him in French.

Also, when I made the comment about someone speaking in English to a local council worker, I was trying to make the point that it is not that hard to at least come up with the basics in French, such as hello, or do you speak English, out of courtesy to the locals in your host country. I can't believe anyone is too busy for that. I am sure in the Netherlands English is spoken to foreigners very often, however English is one of their primary languages. Switzerland has three primary languages already, Swiss, French and Italian, plus Romansch, and still I have seen many locals be very welcoming to foreigners, speaking to them in English and in fact being happy to practise their English. However, surely it works both ways and foreigners coming here to live can also make an effort to integrate into the local culture as well. 

David W:

That's very true. The little pleasantries go a long way in driving good will, and are actually expected. 

I was once at the Migros and didn't reply to the standard "bonjour" from the cashier. She stopped her work, said "Bonjour!" again with an emphasis, and only when I replied she got back to it...(-;

Nir

Just a couple of impressions I get from Geneva.....

The good: the city gives the impression that everything's in order; the bad: it's not: TPG disorder, dirty streets (I've seen cities in Asia, not including Japan or Singapore, that put Geneva streets to shame in cleanliness), confusing bike signs that begin and end in the middle of streets (and nowhere), just to name a few.

The good: Geneva gives an impression that it supports cyclists. The bad: traffic signs scream the opposite. If you try to obey all the signs, you will find yourself: cycling against the traffic; not knowing where to go next because the signs disappear from the side of the road and reappear again in the dead middle of a busy traffic...etc. People cycle on sidewalks anyway, why not simply draw a line to give cyclists some space there?

The good: the city gives the impression that it has high quality of life. The bad: it doesn't. The landscape is gorgeous, but it's lesser quality for a higher price, yet we should be thankful because people actually bothered to offer them, and not clients giving them a salary. Hmm.

Since the thread asked expats what they feel about the city, so it's just a few things that makes me feel like it's being run by hypocrites. With that said, the "great" about Geneva's charm is, of course, its natural beauty, it's great if you like travelling, and the expats, who make Geneva a home. 

thanks. very interesting answers  :-)

Interesting remarks about the language. Swiss Frenchs, at least Genevans, have/had some difficulties to learn German at school, when Swiss Germans learn it more easily. (got some friends from thurgau in home some times ago, and the husband speaks a good french, even if he told me he didn't practice since 15 years.... I'm just unable to speak German (I want to learn it again). The wife is British, so she didn't learn French.  

I agree that, in Geneva where foreign busisness are (very) welcome, some people in the administration should have to know English, even if it's just some basics knowledge (like me), at least the people in charge. Same for  security/safety people.

Thanks to you Bertrand for asking. Not everybody likes to hear what people think about him or her. A lot of things has been said about the Swiss in previous threads but as Edward said, it is impossible to a come to a consensus as everyone form their opinion according to their own culture, experience and personality.

About languages: once I stopped at the petrol station on the motorway between Lausanne and Geneva, there was an Italian man standing before the cashier and in front of me. He was speaking in Italian to the cashier who replied in French that he did not speak Italian. Frustrated not to be understood, the man got furious and started insulting the cashier. I explained to the cashier what the man wanted then the man turned towards me and said in Italian: "Italian is a Swiss national language, why can't he speak Italian!!!". I thought that man was pretty rude. Then the cashier who seemed to be very sorry, said to me: "Very few Swiss people can speak all national languages. Most speak two."

I think the problem here is expectations. The more expectations we have the less they are likely to be met...

The international language that is understood for sure by everybody around the world is a smile... that's the safest way to start any conversation

The opinion of a Swiss person... 

Well, I love my country, but I feel more at ease with expats... It's funny how I always felt transparent among Swiss people and how I felt I was "someone interesting" in another country. Maybe because you accept differences better outside of Switzerland... But it's only my experience.

I've travelled a lot in my life and lived in different countries and in several states in the US. I always loved to be abroad, but I always loved to come back home...

I loved Montana, because it reminded me of home (countryside)...

I lived in Chile and learned Spanish in 3 months. I think that when you come to a country, you should try to learn the language, especially if you've lived, or plan to live there for many years.

I don't really like it when people on Glocals criticize Swiss people or the country of Switzerland, because I don't think I fit most of their comments. I'm not boring, I'm open and I'm... hot.... lol (just a joke...:-) I guess it's just stereotyping that I don't appreciate. 

:-)

I think that I know this one...

@ Julian : sorry for this old subject, but that interests me and I didn't find some precedent thread.....

Although we have been life-long Switzerland fans, the attitude of some Swiss [not all of them] sometimes gets on our nerves, in that they tend to feel they are better than everyone else - we call this "smug". For instance, Schweizerfleisch, Schweizerprodukt, Schweizerfabrikat, etc. etc. And now the "how happy we are that WE are not in the EU" - read this only last week. The tendency seems to be that if it is Swiss, it is far superior [and therefore doubly expensive] than the alternatives. Having said that, if anyone defames Switzerland, we are the first to stand by the Swiss as we have many life-long Swiss friends. Hope this answered your question.

My first experience in Lausanne was ok... but they didn't like to speak english. After I started in french and it was great.. I had a really nice time here in Lausanne with my friends, the lady from the bakery and all my lovely neighbours...

Ok.. the employees from the "MFK" worked very fast but no humor

Now here in Zürich... it's "different".. the redtapism is incredibly...

I went to the registration office with all document, the person there made from everything a copy.. took my money and DONE.

NO... weeks later my girlfriend got a letter to confirm that I really live with her. I got also a letter to confirm that I have a job, another one from the tax department, another one for the health insurance.. ..nice..

And if you want a service or appointment in a garage.. it takes time.. For a normal service.. min. 3 weeks..

The people are very nice, but for me like people from the moon and mars.. I'm so fast for most of them. I want to fix the things immediately but no way

Yes,it's an old,old question.......and the answers are the same.

A high,material standard of living is not the only thing that makes a country good to live in!!! That's worth remembering.You can be in a poorer place and have more fun and more warmth than in a place where everyone's car is shiny and new.

If you love mountains,hiking and winter sports,OF COURSE you'll love being here.What's not to love?

But,if you don't,...............the cold months(which,let's face it,are in the majority)are pretty tough.If you don't have a cosy family life or you don't ski etc,and you're not a spring chicken,you've got a bit of a job having a  fun time here. You do have to work at it - it wasn't like that when i lived in the UK(sorryJulian )

Come to think of it,I guess different places suit different personalities.

Some people I know LOVE holidaying in Las Vegas - I'd rather stick pins in my eyes.

We all have different priorities for what makes us feel contented.

I really REALLY wasn't going to jump on this thread, but.....

I don't like being misquoted.  What I "actually" say quite frequently, is "only boring people get bored", i.e. life is what you make it. 

I don't consider my life so perfect that I can judge other people's lives.

Actually, re-wind..... I DO consider my life pretty, damn, perfect (but that's cos I live in Swizzyland and have wonderful, valuable and valued friends).

Not read thread, just replying to original question

I think in any foreign country it is difficult to be accepted per se.  I came here speaking schoolboy French not having used for 30 years but like riding a bike it is always there. 

Initially I hung out with expats and explored the alps on my own.

fAfter about 2 years I became involved with the Swiss Alpine Club but it could have been sailing, football, chess, line dancing or whatever.

This forced me to use French and get invloved with Swiss

Now if I want to go for a casual drink at short notice I probably am more likely to go with Swiss than with expats. (60%/40%) but I am not completely accepted and I accept that.

It would act the same way in England with foreigners.  Yes I would accept them but they would never be a close as people I had been to school or university with.

In short I fiind the Swiss no different from anyboy else - just completely normal but just like in England some can be extremely funny and pleasant to be with. 

I come from several countries and I have felt a foreigner all my life. Differences of background, religion, colour, language, etc. haven't prevented me from making close relationships. I think it's just a question of finding like-minded people, then differences can make things all the more interesting as long as they're compatible with your values. Sometimes the most alien people come from the same town. But I totally understand you Paul when you say that the people you feel the closest to are your school / university mates. To me the only thing that can show the value of a relationship is time. My closest friends are also from school and university but you'd wonder what I may have in common with them... one is a French gay guy who works in the fashion industry in Paris, another one is a black lady from the hight-society of Madagascar. These differences don't matter or are rather interesting to discuss. I know they value my friendship and that they know I totally accept their differences. I have also many things in common and many differences with my Swiss friends. The closest friends are the ones you haven't seen in months and the next time you see them is like you saw them the day before. Friendship takes time... maybe more time for the Swiss...??? (only kidding)

By the way, I think the way we appreciate any place is a combination of many things but the most important of all are the people we meet and the relationships we make. Landscapes and cultural stuff are nice of course or can even be gorgeous but that's not what makes you feel good about a place. The only thing that matters at the end of the day are the people. To you people who are from the UK, I've always been fond of your country not only because of your lovely countryside and pubs but mainly because I have met there wonderful people, lived in a family that made me feel like I was their daughter and spent some of the happiest time of my life. Of course I have felt different there, I'd rather say "exotic" being surrounded buy blue-eyed people. But that was rather an advantage as guys made me feel that I was attractive.

I agree totally with what you say about your closest friends being the ones you haven't seen for months.....

The point I was making about school / university is that those are the ones you grew up together with.  Your initial experiences, happiness and sorrows were with them (not counting family) so that sort of friendship is going to be deeper.  Other friendships are important but in my opinion not as deep.  I am not talking relationships here, just acquaintances and friends.  But if you are with a group of Swiss friends and they start speaking about experiences at school and growing up in Switzerland, it is interesting and you can be part of the conversation but in that field you are an outsider because you have not experienced it.   

This is nothing to do with Switzerland, it is the same everywhere.   

By "relationship" I mainly meant friendship too but I think it also works for the broad definition of the word; ie. any kind of relationship:

relationship/rɪˈleɪʃnʃɪp/

■ the way in which two or more people or groups regard and behave towards each other.