Out of curiosity why can't swiss citizens rent in Geneva?

To be honest the prices have gole to high for the avrage swiss to afford, in 10 years the prices in Geneva have more then trippled, in 2001 a 3pc would cost less then 1100 chf per month, and that is in the center, now you are lucky if it is less then 2000chf, the avrage swiss just cant afford that with the other bills on top.

I confirm what Steven explains here. To get some more square meters at an affordable price (well not that affordable though) I had to expatriate in France.

Many Swiss friends also moved either to Vaud or to France. The average salary in Geneva is around CHF 5,500 gross.  When you know that the crapiest 50 sqm flat costs over CHF 1,500 you can understand why it's so difficult.

Besides nowadays most regies ask a minimum salary of 4x the gross rental and it can go up to 5 times.

Who said Geneva is a paradise for Swiss citizens? 

This is an issue I find I often have to explain to visitors and other newcomers to Geneva:  the cost of rents, services and goods is high for everybody, irrespective of nationality.  And even native Genevans find it difficult to find affordable accommodation.  If your income doesn’t meet the régies’ criteria, they don’t want to know.

And it’s been that way ever since the end of WWII.

R.

True, but when the large multi nationals moved in the prices went through the roof, according to the Mercer report Geneva is now the 7th most expensive city to live in, in the world, it is at the point that when we went to a govement for help we were told that Geneva is NOT for the middle class anymore and to go to france if we want a place, now tell me why a Swiss citizen must go to france to make room for non Swiss.

its no surprise that rents are extortionate - so they are in zurich, moscow, tokyo and all other economic hubs in the world. an annual rent for a 50sqm flat in geneva will buy you a mansion with land in rural portugal. 

A friend of mine was lucky enough to recently find a place to buy in geneva. a brand-new but bland 95sqm 3 pieces, for CHF 1.1 mio nonetheless. as we were quietly standing on his balcony overlooking the parking lot and rubbish bins, i was looking for diplomatic words to compliment him on his new flat. He finally said: "you know, the quality of life in geneva is fantastic, we are in the center of europe, there are great jobs and good money. but housing is the sacrifice we make here."

however, i dont see how this would be a problem of "the swiss". true, fantastically high salaries have distorted the market, but this income bracket is not exclusively reserved for expats. no idea what the political solution to the housing situation could be. maybe it would be a good start if the groups that co-exist in geneva in parallel - diplomats, resident expats, students & interns, sans papiers, local genevans, second generation immigrants etc - would actually start interacting. maybe then geneva would somehow develop a civil society that has the drive and interest to engage around a common cause.

its the law of capitalism, my friend 

besides, not sure how "geneva to the swiss" would turn out in the long run. Interesting credo for a city thats reputed as the European Headquarter of the UN, makes its money in the international banking & finance circuit and is home to the headquarters of several multinationals with hundreds/thousands of jobs in the region. globalisation bites you in the butt, doesnt it?

Not really, it is all cause of bilateral agreements with other E.U. countries, follow the Swiss politics they are starting to get fed up with them, so far there has been a growing movment by the Swiss to limit the number of non Swiss living in the country, this movment is gathering more and more followers, political parties like the UDC are gettn more and more support. The Swiss did just fine before the large multi nationals and they will do just fine when they are golen.

Well, it's not only the rich expats who get flats in Geneva. Actually the ones who find the best accommodation are either the well-off - of course - but also residents who get social benefits irrespective of their nationality.

I am not an UDC or MCG guy and will never be but there is definitely something rotten in the kingdom of Calvin.

I agree, I will never join the UDC or any other radical political groupe like that, but the people are starting to get fed the situation.

Another bullshit provoking thread, just ignore it.

STFU

Just mad cause the truth hurts so if you ignore anyone ignore the ignorant one 2 post up.

Families living at 4/5 people in 60 sqm is no bullshit, but the sad reality. 

You can dislike the post but facts remain the same.

The sad thing is my wife went for a HLM, she was told that there are Swiss people on the emergency list that are living in cars while they wait for a place to live, But if you are a immigrant or on social they not only give you a place to live but give you money for food, some spending cash and pay for all schooling, but a Swiss tax paying citizen is told that they just dont make as much as a person who works at a multinational so you should leave Geneva and go somewere else.

you mean that for 20 years you will just wait for someone else to improve your situation?

yeah, i guess i'll be hitting your "thank you" button soon...

There is this level that no one is supposed to be in Geneva. I  know of numerous people who were told they make too much to be given the affordable social housing so the social worker told her to either have 2 more children or divorce and leave her job and go on full social to be able to get housing. So you can either be super rich, super lucky or super poor.

Sorry but this smells a bit too much like an Us and Them disscussion. AndSteven, you consider yourself a swiss, though you are only Swiss because you married a Swiss, so you are as much a foreigner as anybody else not born here. And how was Switzerland doing just fine without the international organisations and multinationals? Do you have any clue what this does for the local economy (restaurants, hotels, shops etc.etc.). 

I can't afford a 4 bedroom in Geneva either, but nor could I afford the same in downtown London, Amsterdam or New York. I have moved with my family to Nyon, there I have a nice house at a fairer price, and I take the commute (Swiss trains ROCK) for granted. If you want even cheaper, go up in the Jura and you have a lovely house with a huge garden. But everything in life comes at a price. I do feel sorry for people living in poverty, and in my opinion something should be done to help them out, the weaker in our society deserve protection, that's without a doubt. But also there is a limit to that. 

Stop complaining, if you want socialism can I suggest moving to North Korea, they seem to be doing that just fine down there, otherwise there are normally tons of ways to change your situation, just complaining here on a forum is just not one of those. 

Crawl back into your hole Hayes!

The fact is you DONT know a thing about me, I do have a swiss passport, I am a swiss citizen, just cause I was born in the US dosent make me a citizen there, so I will accept you opinion as a non swiss citizen, but what you dont know or understand is this, as a swiss citizen you gain certin benifits from the canton you live in, if you change cantons you loose all benifits and start from zero in the new canton, if you have to move to France you loose ALL benifits, to get the benifits back you need to live in Switzerland for at least 5 years, Do you think Geneva started as a city when the large multi nationals moved in, no it was here a lot longer then that and the people survived just fine, had a good way of life. Every one is due there own opinion and I respect that, but a country should also take care of its tax paying citizens before taking care of other countries poor.

Dude I don't know if you are genuine or not but the person who started this thread is a known troll who was banned from the site repeatedly. Beware of chickens who don't post anything for three years and they start right off with an inflamatory post. Or did you actually think that an "american teacher" would make basic English mistakes in every post or insult the first person who doesn't agree with them?!

Open your eyes people!

GO BACK TO YOURS AND STOP BRINGING YOUR TRASH TO THE REST OF EUROPE TROLL

Well you should, after you read my last post. You're welcome.

HAHAHA Never been banned but you should

To be honest I am not going to get in a flame war with a ignorant troll, I got my rant out, thank you for reading :)

i've heard this from other swiss friends too, but one question i'd like to ask is exactly how and maybe more importantly why did all these multinationals move in to switzerland in the first place? 

So because I don't have a swiss passport I'm a second class citizen. It just shows what you are made off. And, having said that, most of the expats here (I'm not, on a local contract) also pay taxes, and the more you earn, the more taxes one pays here.

No I've lived for close like 10 years here, and I'd be happy to know what those benefits are. Because, first you are complaining about the rents, and all those "foreigners" getting everything what's due to others, and than you start about benefits. If I'd have your problem, I'd let go of those benefits and getting a better life.

By the looks of it, I'd rather not known you. Catalin has a point here, just playing on the person and writing in capitals doesn't really look mature.

Please read! I've said in the current situation Geneva would be loosing a lot without the international organisations, and the multinationals. Yeah sure, the rents would go down a lot, but you will loose so much more, clearly you have no idea, you only look in your own little world.

Have a nice day! Be happy!

Dont know, and dont get me wrong they bring ALOT of money to the area, the only thing is that the avrage Swiss from Geneva is forced to leave due to the fact they cant match what the compaines are paying for housing, it is not the expats fault  by far, they are making a living like everyone else, it is the goverments fault for not regulating prices.

Hi,

Yes, the rents in Geneva are ridiculous and out of the reach of people in lower-paid jobs (regardless of nationality) but, as several people have pointed out above, this has been the case in Geneva for a long time and is the case in most other world cities.

I found the following graph useful. The important lines are the red (salaries) and the dashed black (rents). So the situation is now much better than in the early 90's, and better than in the 70's when the statistics begin. A German speaker is welcome to correct me if I have misunderstood. 

Source: http://www.avenir-suisse.ch/fr/7347/migration-logement-et-bien-etre/

She's wasn't trying to be a wise-ass. She was pointing out what appears to be a act of incredible "something." To put it as nicely as possible. 

The idea of waiting years and years for some bureaucrat to give you money that you did not earn, so you can rent an apartment that you cannot afford on your own merit or accord is a foreign concept to many of us.  

For many people. The ability to provide for themselves and their families is directly tied to each persons, and often societal perceptions of self-worth, self-respect and self-determination. Unlike yourself, it's unusal even amongst the idingent to actively plan to go on social welfare assistance. This is what makes your perspective unusual to put it mildly. 

Let me get this straight. The original poster and his spouse allegedly cannot afford an apartment in Geneva on their 2 incomes. Something doesn't smell right about this assertion. Moo-Poop.

I am having a hard time believing that two responsible adults cannot get it together enough to afford one the many crappy apartments in Geneva. What I also find astonishing is that a hard working and industrious adult man would send his wife to apply for social welfare housing. That act speaks volumes in itself. 

A Regie asking for a proof of salary that is 4x the rent is NORMAL anywhere in the USA. Parents teach their children this rule of budgeting rent at 25% of salary as a basic tenant of fiscal responsibility. Every student that took a Home Economics class in public school got this lesson as well. 

As an American, there are lots of places in the USA that I cannot afford to live. Places that I may NEVER be able to afford. Too many places to list. And I am perfectly okay with that. The world owes me nothing.  I am repsonsible for me and mine. 

LOL you ASSume to much first who said both work? If one is at work wouldent it be prudent for the other to go to the goverment, and do the daily household stuff? Also 4x rent is not normal anywhere, each regie ask for diffrent stuff, Also this is comming from someone from a country that thinks budgeting is charging a credit card, you read every post and put others comments on the poster, No one is blaming ex pats, but that fact remain that rents in the city have gotten out of control, just like New york, London and Paris, I to would love to live in a large house in the country but I will have to due with were I am. The world dosent owe me anything either, BUT the goverment does, and as I started eairlyer it was more of a rant, but for people to comment like this it must have hit close to home, sry if it did.

One of you is freeloading and you are on here complaining about the rents being too high?

Are you kidding me?

Come on man. Get real!

If you were actually an American you know that the 25% model is indeed par for the course. 

politics!

It's not called out of control, it's called a free market. Supply and demand... And - Swiss rents are quite controlled. Move to e.g. Dubai, and there they can raise the rent each year with almost how much they want... So you could be living in a house, which you can't afford next year anymore.

We all want to live downtown, close to everything, but we can't have it all. It's that easy. It's one of those typical "socialist" ideals that all should be for everybody. Silly. 

I'm happy some bankers make millions and I don't. And that they live in a nice appartement in the old town which I can't afford. So be it - I'm glad they are having succes!!! I measure my wellness in totally different ways, and not in goods or money. 

With all respect but you sound a little bit like a spoilt little kid who can't get what he wants, but also doesn't want to do any effort to get it. Yeah, you have to move, but all your friends live here booh booh. Perhaps you talk to a refugee, and ask them why they came here, and why perhaps they got that nice house you so much disered.... Start with some people from Darfur e.g. - believe me, most of them want to go back home, but there is not much left of it..... Now... was this a Godwin or not?

Be happy :-) 

Steven,

You are a grown man. You have a moral obligation to provide for yourself and yours. The government doesn't owe you anything. But they are their to help if you are a failure at supporting yourself and your family. And it's not really the government that is helping you. It's all your neighbors that work hard to chip in with thier taxes to build a better society. Including and especially all those expats and multinationals. All of us would rather see those monies going to civil works that benefit everyone instead of expenditures that go to provide services to a minority of people at the expense of the majority. But we all recognize that need to help those who cannot help themselves. And we all know that able bodied scam artists will always take advantage of the kindness of society. We can only hope that the real needy people are serviced before those who intentions are nefarious or just plain rooted in laziness. 

Just one question how the hell did it get from people trying to sublet illegal to ppl being lazy? My bad ppl, guess it got WAY off subject.

I think I was wrong. Let me explain.

I think both Steven and Lisa are in part, correct. I was being judgemental of both of them.

With regard to Lisa: I just thought and still think that most people are better than standing in line, waiting for the welfare dime. Especially when they are clearly bright and articulate. But that is idealism and not necessarily reality. One is not a substitute for the other. My apologies to Lisa. 

With Steven I did the same thing. And in doing so I totally missed the point. I missed not what he had written but instead the reasoning for writing it. I missed the general core of what he was trying to convey. My apologies Steven. 

Steven is very frustrated. He knows that life is not always fair and that times can be tough. He does his best, like most people, to just roll with the punches. For him this was about venting his frustrations, sharing his story and seeking some sort of moral support from strangers. He feels very alone. He's quietly confident that he can handle whatever life throws at him. But he wishes to G-d that he could just find a decent apartment in an area that will let him live life without too much hardship. And it seems all that he's encountering is the option of renting from snakes and thieves or selling one of his kidneys to make up the difference between his income and the rent. He's very sensitive right now and feeling a little scared. Which is totally normal. 

If I hear of an affordable flat in Geneva in the near future. I will be sure to pass along that information to Steven first. And I hope that others do the same. 

Good luck Steven. 

catalin

Just for clarify - I didn't necessary "thank poster" because it was you who posted it as, in the past, I have found some of your posts unnecessarily ascerbic.

However, I had to thank you for stating the obvious and pointing out his basic command of English (as he does indeed list himself as a "teacher", born in the US).

He also makes a massive blooper in his original post by stating:

4 diffrent people and all 4 wanted to rent with no contract, they wanted a deposit to be placed in there personal bank accounts, ans they said that it could not be registerd with the OCP,.............so Aslocal (sic) here I come.

So the "4 different people" didn't want a contract, wanted cash in their personal bank accounts and didn't want to be registered with the OCP?. 

So they *cough* weren't actually "landlords", were they.  

So I'm not sure how "Aslocal" would help.  If he'd gone to a reputable regie, then there might have been a point to his original post.

Although, if he were to argue his case with the regie as inarticulately as he does on here, then I wouldn't have high hopes.

Glad it's not just me who's awake! 

And they say "yanks" don't get being "ironic".  You kill me, Roman!

hi dont worry steven i just posted ad to transfer the bail 1370chf . if you are intrested let me know. here everyone will atleast agree on one thing finding a appt is much difficult. i heard some people are taking more then 2500 chf just to help you to get appt .

Lisa V,

Respectfully, I based what I said based off your own remarks. Please accept my apologies if I was wrong to interpet what you wrote as you saying that at one time you were waiting on a list for an apartment that was in part subsidized by the government.

You know, I have friends in Amsterdam. Actually I know the city pretty well. Granted, I only know about 10 people and a couple of like family members there. I visit there 3-4 times a years. I have spent at least a month, total time each year there for the past several years in the central Amsterdam.  All I can say is sorry I didn't witness the same housing shortage that you did. What I saw was just the opposite. Now I wasn't price checking, but a nice place inside the city center just about anywhere nice in the world is going to cost you dearly. Living out by their airport is always cheaper regardless of the city. That's why being out in the Osdorp neighborhood is much cheaper than Vondelpark. That's just ten minutes on the number 1 tram difference in commute to Central Station. 

At the request of the original poster, we blocked this thread. 

Steven: you made some provocative statements, so it's little wonder the thread flared up. 

Nir, glocals admin