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Slut Walk

It all started in Toronto, when on January 24th, 2011, a representative of the Toronto Police gave shocking insight into the Force’s view of sexual assault by stating: “women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized”...


The Slut Walk protest march then became a movement that spread in many major cities of the world, such as Chicago and New Delhi. Here are some links to read more about it:


http://www.slutwalktoronto.com/


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SlutWalk


There’s then been a debate going on over the question whether the victims could be blamed for being assaulted according to the way they dress.


It find it quite chocking to think rapists could be exonerated following this argument.


However, I find the debate interesting because it also raises a few other questions:


1) Freedom: unless one lives alone on a desert island, isn't it a utopia to think we are totally free? How far our liberty to dress the way we want goes? What are the limits? Are there some universal rules?


2) Slut: this word sounds pretty strong and negative and this is probably why it provoked such a strong reaction in return. Doesn't the word itself imply the guilt of the women who get raped? If the policeman really wanted to give an advice to women, wouldn't he have chosen more paternalistic / protective words? I believe the definition of a slut depends on each individual. If I may venture one definition myself, I would say, somebody wearing a sexually provocative outfit. But then isnt' it rather difficult to know what one would find sexually appealing or not? From some discussions I had with some male friends it seems that "slutty" clothes are not always the most sexy. Then, why put the blame on clothes which do not make a woman more attractive. It seems that provocation evolves throughout the years. In the '80s, the punks were considered provocative however today, the burqa in the western world is more considered as such.


3) Should we have a slut walk in Geneva? Wink

The text you are quoting:

It all started in Toronto, when on January 24th, 2011, a representative of the Toronto Police gave shocking insight into the Force’s view of sexual assault by stating: “women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized”...


The Slut Walk protest march then became a movement that spread in many major cities of the world, such as Chicago and New Delhi. Here are some links to read more about it:


http://www.slutwalktoronto.com/


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SlutWalk


There’s then been a debate going on over the question whether the victims could be blamed for being assaulted according to the way they dress.


It find it quite chocking to think rapists could be exonerated following this argument.


However, I find the debate interesting because it also raises a few other questions:


1) Freedom: unless one lives alone on a desert island, isn't it a utopia to think we are totally free? How far our liberty to dress the way we want goes? What are the limits? Are there some universal rules?


2) Slut: this word sounds pretty strong and negative and this is probably why it provoked such a strong reaction in return. Doesn't the word itself imply the guilt of the women who get raped? If the policeman really wanted to give an advice to women, wouldn't he have chosen more paternalistic / protective words? I believe the definition of a slut depends on each individual. If I may venture one definition myself, I would say, somebody wearing a sexually provocative outfit. But then isnt' it rather difficult to know what one would find sexually appealing or not? From some discussions I had with some male friends it seems that "slutty" clothes are not always the most sexy. Then, why put the blame on clothes which do not make a woman more attractive. It seems that provocation evolves throughout the years. In the '80s, the punks were considered provocative however today, the burqa in the western world is more considered as such.


3) Should we have a slut walk in Geneva? Wink


IzzieAug 19, 2011 @ 16:10
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 1

I hear other men make sexist remarks about women every day of the week.  I do it too.  But when push comes to shove, nearly all of us would fall on a grenade to protect them.  Well, most of them.  OK, many of them.  Wink


I can't say the same thing for women and their regard for other women.  They are like crabs in a pot, dragging each other back into the pot so that none can escape.

The text you are quoting:

I hear other men make sexist remarks about women every day of the week.  I do it too.  But when push comes to shove, nearly all of us would fall on a grenade to protect them.  Well, most of them.  OK, many of them.  Wink


I can't say the same thing for women and their regard for other women.  They are like crabs in a pot, dragging each other back into the pot so that none can escape.


richardm, Aug 19, 2011 @ 19:45
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Post 2

Provocative post Isabella - or is that a "slutty post" - as provocative and slutty may mean the same??.  Tough call.  Good luck with your responses  and well done for posting.  I wouldn't be that brave (or does "brave" = "provocative/slutty"  in this strange and distorted world that we live in..... 


To be honest though, if having a "slut walk" in Geneva (or anywhere else on this Lonely Planet) was seen as a protest against wearing the burqa (which in 50 years time will be the law - like it or not sweeties - we will all be muslim by then) then, Isabella - I will walk with you tomorrow! Anytime!


Phew - Right now, I almost  wish I was down the Fishermans with the Nyon boys talking about football!! :-) x

The text you are quoting:

Provocative post Isabella - or is that a "slutty post" - as provocative and slutty may mean the same??.  Tough call.  Good luck with your responses  and well done for posting.  I wouldn't be that brave (or does "brave" = "provocative/slutty"  in this strange and distorted world that we live in..... 


To be honest though, if having a "slut walk" in Geneva (or anywhere else on this Lonely Planet) was seen as a protest against wearing the burqa (which in 50 years time will be the law - like it or not sweeties - we will all be muslim by then) then, Isabella - I will walk with you tomorrow! Anytime!


Phew - Right now, I almost  wish I was down the Fishermans with the Nyon boys talking about football!! :-) x


Carolyn C, Aug 19, 2011 @ 21:41
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 3

This 'negativity' you hear around the word slut is one of the problems. The word is, indeed, historically negative, but the practice it describes, polyamory, is not.


Even if a certain dress style is considered provocative, it is at most a communication that a woman is interested in sex. It does not communicate that she is interested in being raped. "Your mouth says no but your clothes say yes," is not a valid argument. No, Nien, or Non, is No, and that's the end of it.


 

The text you are quoting:

This 'negativity' you hear around the word slut is one of the problems. The word is, indeed, historically negative, but the practice it describes, polyamory, is not.


Even if a certain dress style is considered provocative, it is at most a communication that a woman is interested in sex. It does not communicate that she is interested in being raped. "Your mouth says no but your clothes say yes," is not a valid argument. No, Nien, or Non, is No, and that's the end of it.


 


Dusty Phillips, Aug 19, 2011 @ 23:31
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Post 4

@ Carolyn; I love your cat. Reminds of mine who is back home and whom I miss so much!

The text you are quoting:

@ Carolyn; I love your cat. Reminds of mine who is back home and whom I miss so much!


Amir M, Aug 20, 2011 @ 01:46
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 5

This 'negativity' you hear around the word slut is one of the problems. The word is, indeed, historically negative, but the practice it describes, polyamory, is not.

Even if a certain dress style is considered provocative, it is at most a communication that a woman is interested in sex. It does not communicate that she is interested in being raped. "Your mouth says no but your clothes say yes," is not a valid argument. No, Nien, or Non, is No, and that's the end of it.

 


Aug 19, 11 23:31

But its meant to be a very common fantasy for women to want to be raped.


Read Nancy Friday - My Secret Garden and rape is just one of the many taboos that women fantasise about


 


 

The text you are quoting:

But its meant to be a very common fantasy for women to want to be raped.


Read Nancy Friday - My Secret Garden and rape is just one of the many taboos that women fantasise about


 


 


leo tincrowdor, Aug 20, 2011 @ 08:02
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 6

Provocative post Isabella - or is that a "slutty post" - as provocative and slutty may mean the same??.  Tough call.  Good luck with your responses  and well done for posting.  I wouldn't be that brave (or does "brave" = "provocative/slutty"  in this strange and distorted world that we live in..... 

To be honest though, if having a "slut walk" in Geneva (or anywhere else on this Lonely Planet) was seen as a protest against wearing the burqa (which in 50 years time will be the law - like it or not sweeties - we will all be muslim by then) then, Isabella - I will walk with you tomorrow! Anytime!

Phew - Right now, I almost  wish I was down the Fishermans with the Nyon boys talking about football!! :-) x


Aug 19, 11 21:41

BS about the burqa - you know tptb are just playing off people against each other - We will all be Muslim ...do you actually have a clue?

The text you are quoting:

BS about the burqa - you know tptb are just playing off people against each other - We will all be Muslim ...do you actually have a clue?


leo tincrowdor, Aug 20, 2011 @ 08:07
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 7

This 'negativity' you hear around the word slut is one of the problems. The word is, indeed, historically negative, but the practice it describes, polyamory, is not.

Even if a certain dress style is considered provocative, it is at most a communication that a woman is interested in sex. It does not communicate that she is interested in being raped. "Your mouth says no but your clothes say yes," is not a valid argument. No, Nien, or Non, is No, and that's the end of it.

 


Aug 19, 11 23:31

BS - we are human - and women DO actually have an interest in sex...nowhere near as much as men which is what this is all about...in fact a womans ONLY real goal is to be sexually desirable...the rest is just intellectualising life

The text you are quoting:

BS - we are human - and women DO actually have an interest in sex...nowhere near as much as men which is what this is all about...in fact a womans ONLY real goal is to be sexually desirable...the rest is just intellectualising life


leo tincrowdor, Aug 20, 2011 @ 08:21
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 8

Jan 1, 70 01:00

Sadly it is true that some women participate in hurting other women... It all starts with education... a lot of women still train their boys to be little machos and don't teach them to treat the other sex as equal...


But reading at your reply and the one of Richard, I couldn't help but thinking... isn't that another way of blaming women...? Frown

The text you are quoting:

Sadly it is true that some women participate in hurting other women... It all starts with education... a lot of women still train their boys to be little machos and don't teach them to treat the other sex as equal...


But reading at your reply and the one of Richard, I couldn't help but thinking... isn't that another way of blaming women...? Frown


Izzie, Aug 20, 2011 @ 08:19
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Post 9

BS - we are human - and women DO actually have an interest in sex...nowhere near as much as men which is what this is all about...in fact a womans ONLY real goal is to be sexually desirable...the rest is just intellectualising life


Aug 20, 11 08:21

Yes but rape is not sex but violence. The fun stops when one of the persons says NO.


Of course women want to be desirable. So do men. BUT


NOBODY DESERVES SEXUAL ASSAULT


No matter what...

The text you are quoting:

Yes but rape is not sex but violence. The fun stops when one of the persons says NO.


Of course women want to be desirable. So do men. BUT


NOBODY DESERVES SEXUAL ASSAULT


No matter what...


Izzie, Aug 20, 2011 @ 08:50
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 10

Provocative post Isabella - or is that a "slutty post" - as provocative and slutty may mean the same??.  Tough call.  Good luck with your responses  and well done for posting.  I wouldn't be that brave (or does "brave" = "provocative/slutty"  in this strange and distorted world that we live in..... 

To be honest though, if having a "slut walk" in Geneva (or anywhere else on this Lonely Planet) was seen as a protest against wearing the burqa (which in 50 years time will be the law - like it or not sweeties - we will all be muslim by then) then, Isabella - I will walk with you tomorrow! Anytime!

Phew - Right now, I almost  wish I was down the Fishermans with the Nyon boys talking about football!! :-) x


Aug 19, 11 21:41

We prefer to ignore it in our everyday life Carolyn, but as you say the world we live in is far from being Lalaland...

The text you are quoting:

We prefer to ignore it in our everyday life Carolyn, but as you say the world we live in is far from being Lalaland...


Izzie, Aug 20, 2011 @ 08:56
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 11

Check the numbers:


"Up to six out of every ten women experience physical and/or sexual violence in their lifetime. Domestic violence is the biggest cause of injury and death to women around the globe, killing more women aged 15-44 than cancer, traffic accidents and war. [UN statistics].


In France, every two hours a woman gets raped, but this number could be higher since not all victims report to the police [Le Figaro, 2011]. According to official statistics from the Service des droits des femmes et de l’égalité, 140 women died in 2009 in France, victims of domestic violence, every 2.5 days a woman dies from violent behaviors."


http://womenvoiceswomenfaces.wordpress.com/2011/05/14/violence-against-women-the-numbers-are-frightening/


Then, serial killers are rarely women. They usually are the victims. I bet these women in Long Island weren't killed by another woman and so do the profilers apparently: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/22/long-island-serial-killer_n_852536.html

The text you are quoting:

Check the numbers:


"Up to six out of every ten women experience physical and/or sexual violence in their lifetime. Domestic violence is the biggest cause of injury and death to women around the globe, killing more women aged 15-44 than cancer, traffic accidents and war. [UN statistics].


In France, every two hours a woman gets raped, but this number could be higher since not all victims report to the police [Le Figaro, 2011]. According to official statistics from the Service des droits des femmes et de l’égalité, 140 women died in 2009 in France, victims of domestic violence, every 2.5 days a woman dies from violent behaviors."


http://womenvoiceswomenfaces.wordpress.com/2011/05/14/violence-against-women-the-numbers-are-frightening/


Then, serial killers are rarely women. They usually are the victims. I bet these women in Long Island weren't killed by another woman and so do the profilers apparently: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/22/long-island-serial-killer_n_852536.html


Izzie, Aug 20, 2011 @ 09:18
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 12

I hear other men make sexist remarks about women every day of the week.  I do it too.  But when push comes to shove, nearly all of us would fall on a grenade to protect them.  Well, most of them.  OK, many of them.  Wink

I can't say the same thing for women and their regard for other women.  They are like crabs in a pot, dragging each other back into the pot so that none can escape.


Aug 19, 11 19:45

Interesting article BTW

The text you are quoting:

Interesting article BTW


Izzie, Aug 20, 2011 @ 09:21
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Post 13

BS about the burqa - you know tptb are just playing off people against each other - We will all be Muslim ...do you actually have a clue?


Aug 20, 11 08:07
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Carolyn C, Aug 20, 2011 @ 09:51
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Post 14

Jan 1, 70 01:00

Carolyn, I love you.


To all the women on Glocals: please don't bother replying to any of Leo's posts unless you deliberately want to be wound up.

The text you are quoting:

Carolyn, I love you.


To all the women on Glocals: please don't bother replying to any of Leo's posts unless you deliberately want to be wound up.


amna a, Aug 20, 2011 @ 09:56
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Post 15

Provocative post Isabella - or is that a "slutty post" - as provocative and slutty may mean the same??.  Tough call.  Good luck with your responses  and well done for posting.  I wouldn't be that brave (or does "brave" = "provocative/slutty"  in this strange and distorted world that we live in..... 

To be honest though, if having a "slut walk" in Geneva (or anywhere else on this Lonely Planet) was seen as a protest against wearing the burqa (which in 50 years time will be the law - like it or not sweeties - we will all be muslim by then) then, Isabella - I will walk with you tomorrow! Anytime!

Phew - Right now, I almost  wish I was down the Fishermans with the Nyon boys talking about football!! :-) x


Aug 19, 11 21:41

As a Muslim (albeit not an orthodox one), I can tell you there are loads of us around who don't wear the burqa! Smile

The text you are quoting:

As a Muslim (albeit not an orthodox one), I can tell you there are loads of us around who don't wear the burqa! Smile


amna a, Aug 20, 2011 @ 09:57
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Post 16

As a Muslim (albeit not an orthodox one), I can tell you there are loads of us around who don't wear the burqa! Smile


Aug 20, 11 09:57

And you certainly are a Muslim beauty who deserves to show it and enjoy it. I have spent a lot of time in a muslim country and read and discussed a lot to understand the customs and religion but honestly, I never understood what good the burqa does to women despite all the arguments I was given. Actually, I am quite convinced it is an offense to women. And wearing it in a Western country is pure provocation. It doesn't protect women, it attracts the attention on them.

The text you are quoting:

And you certainly are a Muslim beauty who deserves to show it and enjoy it. I have spent a lot of time in a muslim country and read and discussed a lot to understand the customs and religion but honestly, I never understood what good the burqa does to women despite all the arguments I was given. Actually, I am quite convinced it is an offense to women. And wearing it in a Western country is pure provocation. It doesn't protect women, it attracts the attention on them.


Izzie, Aug 20, 2011 @ 10:03
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Post 17

And you certainly are a Muslim beauty who deserves to show it and enjoy it. I have spent a lot of time in a muslim country and read and discussed a lot to understand the customs and religion but honestly, I never understood what good the burqa does to women despite all the arguments I was given. Actually, I am quite convinced it is an offense to women. And wearing it in a Western country is pure provocation. It doesn't protect women, it attracts the attention on them.


Aug 20, 11 10:03

Izzie you are too kind. If you really want to get into this discussion, it has been thrashed ad nauseum in the politics forum under 'Ban the Veil'! Enjoy! Furthermore, I'm happy to meet you for coffee and discuss it at a personal level!


Have a nice sunny weekend!

The text you are quoting:

Izzie you are too kind. If you really want to get into this discussion, it has been thrashed ad nauseum in the politics forum under 'Ban the Veil'! Enjoy! Furthermore, I'm happy to meet you for coffee and discuss it at a personal level!


Have a nice sunny weekend!


amna a, Aug 20, 2011 @ 10:23
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 18

Yes but rape is not sex but violence. The fun stops when one of the persons says NO.

Of course women want to be desirable. So do men. BUT

NOBODY DESERVES SEXUAL ASSAULT

No matter what...


Aug 20, 11 08:50

when did i say that women deserve to be raped...which part of ANY post says that? You are reading in what you want to read

The text you are quoting:

when did i say that women deserve to be raped...which part of ANY post says that? You are reading in what you want to read


leo tincrowdor, Aug 20, 2011 @ 12:50
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Post 19

Jan 1, 70 01:00

Prove that I am wrong


Maybe I should dig out the stats


But hey I dont blame you for being annoyed about exposing one of womens little secrets


I would watch what you are posting...its quite deranged

The text you are quoting:

Prove that I am wrong


Maybe I should dig out the stats


But hey I dont blame you for being annoyed about exposing one of womens little secrets


I would watch what you are posting...its quite deranged


leo tincrowdor, Aug 20, 2011 @ 13:01
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 20

And you certainly are a Muslim beauty who deserves to show it and enjoy it. I have spent a lot of time in a muslim country and read and discussed a lot to understand the customs and religion but honestly, I never understood what good the burqa does to women despite all the arguments I was given. Actually, I am quite convinced it is an offense to women. And wearing it in a Western country is pure provocation. It doesn't protect women, it attracts the attention on them.


Aug 20, 11 10:03

well religions have an uncanny habit of imposing stupid 'rules' on people as religions are control freakery to the point of absurdity...but thats a different argument


luckily more people are switching away from the BS of religion, thank God


science and rationality v God...the big guy loses


grow up kiddies God doesnt exist and should be consigned to the scrapbooks


Wearing a burqa upsets people in the west simply as it irrtates small minded racists looking for anything to attach their hatred to

The text you are quoting:

well religions have an uncanny habit of imposing stupid 'rules' on people as religions are control freakery to the point of absurdity...but thats a different argument


luckily more people are switching away from the BS of religion, thank God


science and rationality v God...the big guy loses


grow up kiddies God doesnt exist and should be consigned to the scrapbooks


Wearing a burqa upsets people in the west simply as it irrtates small minded racists looking for anything to attach their hatred to


leo tincrowdor, Aug 20, 2011 @ 13:04
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Post 21

Izzie, those stats seem odd.  Which UN agency are they from?

The text you are quoting:

Izzie, those stats seem odd.  Which UN agency are they from?


richardm, Aug 20, 2011 @ 13:23
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Post 22

Ignoring what seems to be a fight between some individuals here, I'd like to comment on the slutwalk. I went to the slutwalk in Stockholm and it is a really great thing to stand up for I think!


Especially here in Switzerland I cannot walk the streets without some idiot who follows his dick coming after me with a "ca va cherie ca va" followed by a "why are you walking away?" as he follows me. Or the cars that honk at you or have guys hanging out the windows shouting various things at you. Thanks for making me feel cheap like a common prostitute.


I must admit this happens no matter what I wear, but it certainly happens more if I wear a short skirt!


You know maybe I'm not wearing a short skirt because I am looking for sex, maybe it's just the middle of the day and it is hot as hell!


I know this is absolutely not the same as full-blown rape, but it is not normal and it displays a certain view of women.


And even when I wear 'slutty' clothes or whatever you want to call it on my night out and I was indeed looking for sex, I have a right to chose!


And I definitely think we should have a Swiss slutwalk!

The text you are quoting:

Ignoring what seems to be a fight between some individuals here, I'd like to comment on the slutwalk. I went to the slutwalk in Stockholm and it is a really great thing to stand up for I think!


Especially here in Switzerland I cannot walk the streets without some idiot who follows his dick coming after me with a "ca va cherie ca va" followed by a "why are you walking away?" as he follows me. Or the cars that honk at you or have guys hanging out the windows shouting various things at you. Thanks for making me feel cheap like a common prostitute.


I must admit this happens no matter what I wear, but it certainly happens more if I wear a short skirt!


You know maybe I'm not wearing a short skirt because I am looking for sex, maybe it's just the middle of the day and it is hot as hell!


I know this is absolutely not the same as full-blown rape, but it is not normal and it displays a certain view of women.


And even when I wear 'slutty' clothes or whatever you want to call it on my night out and I was indeed looking for sex, I have a right to chose!


And I definitely think we should have a Swiss slutwalk!


Sandrine S, Aug 20, 2011 @ 13:58
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Post 23

Hi folks,


I removed some posts on this thread and suspended the account of one of the posters.


Please keep the discussions civil and respectful.


Thanks


Oded


 

The text you are quoting:

Hi folks,


I removed some posts on this thread and suspended the account of one of the posters.


Please keep the discussions civil and respectful.


Thanks


Oded


 


SiteAdmin Oded, Aug 20, 2011 @ 14:40
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Post 24

Very interesting thread, I have to admit I have never heard of the Slutwalk before, so my question for Sandrine, and Izzie:


What would you like to achieve out of this Slutwalk in Geneva, and how do you "educate" the general public watching you about what it is your are doing, and trying to achieve? Coz otherwise it does'nt serve its purpose does it?


Do you distribute flyers? How do you create the awareness?


Is this an women only activity, or can men support you in your cause as well?


Cheers;


Andras

The text you are quoting:

Very interesting thread, I have to admit I have never heard of the Slutwalk before, so my question for Sandrine, and Izzie:


What would you like to achieve out of this Slutwalk in Geneva, and how do you "educate" the general public watching you about what it is your are doing, and trying to achieve? Coz otherwise it does'nt serve its purpose does it?


Do you distribute flyers? How do you create the awareness?


Is this an women only activity, or can men support you in your cause as well?


Cheers;


Andras


Andrash K, Aug 20, 2011 @ 15:29
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Post 25

http://www.slutwalktoronto.com/satellite/set-up-a-satellite may be of use.

The text you are quoting:

http://www.slutwalktoronto.com/satellite/set-up-a-satellite may be of use.


Dusty Phillips, Aug 20, 2011 @ 15:56
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 26

Can someone move this post to the politics or "I am sexually frustrated" section of the forums?

The text you are quoting:

Can someone move this post to the politics or "I am sexually frustrated" section of the forums?


Chris Shailos, Aug 20, 2011 @ 18:01
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Post 27

I don't mind at all saying that I agree wholeheartedly with Chris Shailos on this point Tongue out

The text you are quoting:

I don't mind at all saying that I agree wholeheartedly with Chris Shailos on this point Tongue out


Translator, Aug 20, 2011 @ 20:10
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Post 28

Ignoring what seems to be a fight between some individuals here, I'd like to comment on the slutwalk. I went to the slutwalk in Stockholm and it is a really great thing to stand up for I think!

Especially here in Switzerland I cannot walk the streets without some idiot who follows his dick coming after me with a "ca va cherie ca va" followed by a "why are you walking away?" as he follows me. Or the cars that honk at you or have guys hanging out the windows shouting various things at you. Thanks for making me feel cheap like a common prostitute.

I must admit this happens no matter what I wear, but it certainly happens more if I wear a short skirt!

You know maybe I'm not wearing a short skirt because I am looking for sex, maybe it's just the middle of the day and it is hot as hell!

I know this is absolutely not the same as full-blown rape, but it is not normal and it displays a certain view of women.

And even when I wear 'slutty' clothes or whatever you want to call it on my night out and I was indeed looking for sex, I have a right to chose!

And I definitely think we should have a Swiss slutwalk!


Aug 20, 11 13:58

"Especially here in Switzerland I cannot walk the streets without some idiot who follows his dick coming after me with a "ca va cherie ca va" followed by a "why are you walking away?" as he follows me. Or the cars that honk at you or have guys hanging out the windows shouting various things at you. Thanks for making me feel cheap like a common prostitute."


 


I agree witheverything you said. Although please explain the above quote. How can those actions make you feel cheap? They are some idiots who just give you attention. Ok it is unwanted attention but why does this influence the way you feel?

The text you are quoting:

"Especially here in Switzerland I cannot walk the streets without some idiot who follows his dick coming after me with a "ca va cherie ca va" followed by a "why are you walking away?" as he follows me. Or the cars that honk at you or have guys hanging out the windows shouting various things at you. Thanks for making me feel cheap like a common prostitute."


 


I agree witheverything you said. Although please explain the above quote. How can those actions make you feel cheap? They are some idiots who just give you attention. Ok it is unwanted attention but why does this influence the way you feel?


Maria_, Aug 20, 2011 @ 20:43
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Post 29

Well I have never organized one, just participated. But the actual walk is like a demonstration with banners, chants and things like that. So that in itself sends a message. Also there is usually some publication and media around it. Because you are right, if you cannot convey your message there's no point.


And regarding men joining the cause there were quite a lot of men joining in as well. I'll admit quite a lot of them were wearing short skirts as well, but there was a wide mix of people as well as dress.


It's good to see a man reacting to the actual message rather than the short skirts :)

The text you are quoting:

Well I have never organized one, just participated. But the actual walk is like a demonstration with banners, chants and things like that. So that in itself sends a message. Also there is usually some publication and media around it. Because you are right, if you cannot convey your message there's no point.


And regarding men joining the cause there were quite a lot of men joining in as well. I'll admit quite a lot of them were wearing short skirts as well, but there was a wide mix of people as well as dress.


It's good to see a man reacting to the actual message rather than the short skirts :)


Sandrine S, Aug 20, 2011 @ 20:38
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Post 30

"Especially here in Switzerland I cannot walk the streets without some idiot who follows his dick coming after me with a "ca va cherie ca va" followed by a "why are you walking away?" as he follows me. Or the cars that honk at you or have guys hanging out the windows shouting various things at you. Thanks for making me feel cheap like a common prostitute."

 

I agree witheverything you said. Although please explain the above quote. How can those actions make you feel cheap? They are some idiots who just give you attention. Ok it is unwanted attention but why does this influence the way you feel?


Aug 20, 11 20:43

I feel cheap because they treat me like I'm cheap. I feel treated like a piece of meat and I also feel like I am wearing something somehow too revealing due to this. It just makes me feel very disrespected. Also I wonder what it is exactly they aim to achieve with this? Do they really think I'm cheap and easy enough to actually react to those things in a positive way?

The text you are quoting:

I feel cheap because they treat me like I'm cheap. I feel treated like a piece of meat and I also feel like I am wearing something somehow too revealing due to this. It just makes me feel very disrespected. Also I wonder what it is exactly they aim to achieve with this? Do they really think I'm cheap and easy enough to actually react to those things in a positive way?


Sandrine S, Aug 20, 2011 @ 21:20
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Post 31

I feel cheap because they treat me like I'm cheap. I feel treated like a piece of meat and I also feel like I am wearing something somehow too revealing due to this. It just makes me feel very disrespected. Also I wonder what it is exactly they aim to achieve with this? Do they really think I'm cheap and easy enough to actually react to those things in a positive way?


Aug 20, 11 21:20

"The human race has one really effective weapon, and that is laughter - Mark Twain"


That's what your status line says and I think it's true.  


I can understand that being disrespected can make one feel bad. In many cultures we grow up with practices rooted in shaming women as a form of control. 


I think most of these men didn't have parents who taught them to respect women.


I wouldn't even try to get into their heads and ask those questions. They are the ones with the problem, not you.


 

The text you are quoting:

"The human race has one really effective weapon, and that is laughter - Mark Twain"


That's what your status line says and I think it's true.  


I can understand that being disrespected can make one feel bad. In many cultures we grow up with practices rooted in shaming women as a form of control. 


I think most of these men didn't have parents who taught them to respect women.


I wouldn't even try to get into their heads and ask those questions. They are the ones with the problem, not you.


 


Translator, Aug 20, 2011 @ 21:47
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Post 32

Thanks, you make a good point :)


Still, they kind of make it my problem when they invade my privacy, so it's not like you can just let it be...

The text you are quoting:

Thanks, you make a good point :)


Still, they kind of make it my problem when they invade my privacy, so it's not like you can just let it be...


Sandrine S, Aug 20, 2011 @ 21:59
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Post 33

You have to pick your battles, right? And sometimes some well placed ridicule hits the target! Hollaback! (If it's safe...)

The text you are quoting:

You have to pick your battles, right? And sometimes some well placed ridicule hits the target! Hollaback! (If it's safe...)


Translator, Aug 20, 2011 @ 22:03
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Post 34

Here's some light humor on the subject:

The text you are quoting:

Here's some light humor on the subject:


Translator, Aug 20, 2011 @ 22:15
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Post 35

OK.. now I know, why roadwork takes so long..

The text you are quoting:

OK.. now I know, why roadwork takes so long..


FerneyL, Aug 20, 2011 @ 23:29
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Post 36

I AM surprised, and even a little dismayed, if the movement has not even made it into the news here.


It has.

The text you are quoting:

I AM surprised, and even a little dismayed, if the movement has not even made it into the news here.


It has.


richardm, Aug 21, 2011 @ 12:47
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Post 37

http://www.ihollaback.org/


And for those who were wondering why it has become a worldwide movement or why its is so upsetting to be disrepescted or made to feel cheap by the actions of morons...read this:


http://hollaback-uk.blogspot.com/


http://ldn.ihollaback.org/


interesting stories...

The text you are quoting:

http://www.ihollaback.org/


And for those who were wondering why it has become a worldwide movement or why its is so upsetting to be disrepescted or made to feel cheap by the actions of morons...read this:


http://hollaback-uk.blogspot.com/


http://ldn.ihollaback.org/


interesting stories...


babylicious, Aug 21, 2011 @ 17:54
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Post 38

The men who are receptive to the message of the "slut walk" aren't the ones causing the problem.


The men who are causing the problem wouldn't be receptive to the message of the slut walk.


I've seen some of the media coverage of other such slut walks and all I can see are women acting like idiots.  Those women who have made this activity possible are spinning in their grave over this blasphemous mockery.

The text you are quoting:

The men who are receptive to the message of the "slut walk" aren't the ones causing the problem.


The men who are causing the problem wouldn't be receptive to the message of the slut walk.


I've seen some of the media coverage of other such slut walks and all I can see are women acting like idiots.  Those women who have made this activity possible are spinning in their grave over this blasphemous mockery.


richardm, Aug 21, 2011 @ 22:16
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Post 39

David Chapelle say's it all...

The text you are quoting:

David Chapelle say's it all...


Alexander Rauner, Aug 21, 2011 @ 23:31
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Post 40

There's never an excuse to physically abuse anyone, and certainly no excuse for rape, even if a woman is "provocatively" dressed (what's provocative being subjective).  However, when a woman dresses in a way that highlights physical attributes that are considered sexually attractive, she shouldn't be surprised by compliments--different from insults, but also subjective.  Would it be odd for a guy to be tempted to flirt with a woman who chooses the name "babylicious" for herself, to mistakenly think that she is being suggestive (didn't make that mistake personally)?  


As humans, like all animals and many plants, we are driven by basic primordial instincts that perpetuate life, lest we cease to exist. Females attempt to attract the male with the strongest genes; males attempt to mate with as many females as possible--humans have developed a number of ways to regulate this for the good of "civilization" and in some cases even reversed it.  What's the appropriate balance? Depends on the society...



 

The text you are quoting:

There's never an excuse to physically abuse anyone, and certainly no excuse for rape, even if a woman is "provocatively" dressed (what's provocative being subjective).  However, when a woman dresses in a way that highlights physical attributes that are considered sexually attractive, she shouldn't be surprised by compliments--different from insults, but also subjective.  Would it be odd for a guy to be tempted to flirt with a woman who chooses the name "babylicious" for herself, to mistakenly think that she is being suggestive (didn't make that mistake personally)?  


As humans, like all animals and many plants, we are driven by basic primordial instincts that perpetuate life, lest we cease to exist. Females attempt to attract the male with the strongest genes; males attempt to mate with as many females as possible--humans have developed a number of ways to regulate this for the good of "civilization" and in some cases even reversed it.  What's the appropriate balance? Depends on the society...



 


Robert C, Aug 22, 2011 @ 00:09
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Post 41

Jan 1, 70 01:00

Well you are right that it is common in some countries, because there is indeed a cultural element to it. But I do not see it as a way to show you that you are pretty. How you can take this as a compliment is beyond me.


But maybe you are right, you don't change these things with one slutwalk. But it is a strong feeling to publicly stand up for yourself and your cause. And if you manage to change one person because of it, it is already an improvement.


And for the record, I try to ignore these comments, but when guys follow you around on the street continuing along the lines of "why are you walking away" when you are walking home alone in the middle of the night, it's not a very safe feeling...

The text you are quoting:

Well you are right that it is common in some countries, because there is indeed a cultural element to it. But I do not see it as a way to show you that you are pretty. How you can take this as a compliment is beyond me.


But maybe you are right, you don't change these things with one slutwalk. But it is a strong feeling to publicly stand up for yourself and your cause. And if you manage to change one person because of it, it is already an improvement.


And for the record, I try to ignore these comments, but when guys follow you around on the street continuing along the lines of "why are you walking away" when you are walking home alone in the middle of the night, it's not a very safe feeling...


Sandrine S, Aug 22, 2011 @ 01:24
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Post 42

To the Chapelle video I have one thing to say: I don't dress that provocatively first of all. And second, I have had these problems when I wear just jeans and a top... really some men will try to find any excuse.

The text you are quoting:

To the Chapelle video I have one thing to say: I don't dress that provocatively first of all. And second, I have had these problems when I wear just jeans and a top... really some men will try to find any excuse.


Sandrine S, Aug 22, 2011 @ 01:32
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Post 43

There's never an excuse to physically abuse anyone, and certainly no excuse for rape, even if a woman is "provocatively" dressed (what's provocative being subjective).  However, when a woman dresses in a way that highlights physical attributes that are considered sexually attractive, she shouldn't be surprised by compliments--different from insults, but also subjective.  Would it be odd for a guy to be tempted to flirt with a woman who chooses the name "babylicious" for herself, to mistakenly think that she is being suggestive (didn't make that mistake personally)?  

As humans, like all animals and many plants, we are driven by basic primordial instincts that perpetuate life, lest we cease to exist. Females attempt to attract the male with the strongest genes; males attempt to mate with as many females as possible--humans have developed a number of ways to regulate this for the good of "civilization" and in some cases even reversed it.  What's the appropriate balance? Depends on the society...

 


Aug 22, 11 00:09

Like I said previously, this happens to me even when I am not showing much skin at all.


Also, this 'biological' need of men to fuck around is a bunch of bullshit. I like to think we have evolved a bit further from the biological need to spread our seed.

The text you are quoting:

Like I said previously, this happens to me even when I am not showing much skin at all.


Also, this 'biological' need of men to fuck around is a bunch of bullshit. I like to think we have evolved a bit further from the biological need to spread our seed.


Sandrine S, Aug 22, 2011 @ 01:36
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Post 44

The men who are receptive to the message of the "slut walk" aren't the ones causing the problem.

The men who are causing the problem wouldn't be receptive to the message of the slut walk.

I've seen some of the media coverage of other such slut walks and all I can see are women acting like idiots.  Those women who have made this activity possible are spinning in their grave over this blasphemous mockery.


Aug 21, 11 22:16

Ok you might have a point in the fact that men who are causing the problem are not receptive to the message. However, that doesn't mean you can't still try.


And if I understand you correctly, you are referring to the original feminists when you refer to the "women who have made this activity possible". And I think they would support a cause of trying to make it safer for women on the streets, regardless of what they are wearing.


I'll admit some of the participants in the Slutwalks take that idea quite far, but the goal is the same.

The text you are quoting:

Ok you might have a point in the fact that men who are causing the problem are not receptive to the message. However, that doesn't mean you can't still try.


And if I understand you correctly, you are referring to the original feminists when you refer to the "women who have made this activity possible". And I think they would support a cause of trying to make it safer for women on the streets, regardless of what they are wearing.


I'll admit some of the participants in the Slutwalks take that idea quite far, but the goal is the same.


Sandrine S, Aug 22, 2011 @ 01:38
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Post 45

Sandine, I agree with the walk.  I disagree with your evaluation of how far we've evolved.  Many would like to think we have evolved further then we obviously have.  Herein lies the problem.  

The text you are quoting:

Sandine, I agree with the walk.  I disagree with your evaluation of how far we've evolved.  Many would like to think we have evolved further then we obviously have.  Herein lies the problem.  


Robert C, Aug 22, 2011 @ 06:44
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Post 46

Just my thoughts on this. No 1 and most importantly - I wouldn't wish any assault of any kind on any women. And yes, it would be great if all women could wear anything, anytime and go wherever they please but sadly the world isn't like that. Sick individuals exists and all the 'slut walks' in the world won't change that.


Just one other question I have: given the increased focus on violent crime in Geneva at the moment, do you think advocating the cause of women being empowered to wear whatever and whenever they want, when even men are having the living shit beaten out of them on a regular basis here, could be argued is maybe not the best suggestion right now?


Please believe me, I'm not trying to be controversial and as I said at the start of this post, God forbid anything should happen to any woman - in Geneva (or anywhere) if possible. However, I believe an element of this comes down to personal judgment as well as to the places you go, when you go and also what you wear. I honestly believe that ignoring that element is not the best course of action.


Stay safe,


Rich

The text you are quoting:

Just my thoughts on this. No 1 and most importantly - I wouldn't wish any assault of any kind on any women. And yes, it would be great if all women could wear anything, anytime and go wherever they please but sadly the world isn't like that. Sick individuals exists and all the 'slut walks' in the world won't change that.


Just one other question I have: given the increased focus on violent crime in Geneva at the moment, do you think advocating the cause of women being empowered to wear whatever and whenever they want, when even men are having the living shit beaten out of them on a regular basis here, could be argued is maybe not the best suggestion right now?


Please believe me, I'm not trying to be controversial and as I said at the start of this post, God forbid anything should happen to any woman - in Geneva (or anywhere) if possible. However, I believe an element of this comes down to personal judgment as well as to the places you go, when you go and also what you wear. I honestly believe that ignoring that element is not the best course of action.


Stay safe,


Rich


Rich, Aug 22, 2011 @ 09:23
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Post 47

The men who are receptive to the message of the "slut walk" aren't the ones causing the problem.

The men who are causing the problem wouldn't be receptive to the message of the slut walk.

I've seen some of the media coverage of other such slut walks and all I can see are women acting like idiots.  Those women who have made this activity possible are spinning in their grave over this blasphemous mockery.


Aug 21, 11 22:16

Well, richardm, you make quite a leap there by using "shaming" language --"all I can see are women acting like idiots" as well as making broad assumptions about how feminists (primarily white) might view "slutwalks."


In addition, your earlier link to an blog post about how women verbally abuse each other has little credibility given that the same blogger has a rating scale for men and women.


There are some interesting feminist critiques out there about the concept and execution of "slutwalks," some of which can be found here:


http://www.feministfrequency.com/2011/05/link-round-up-feminist-critiques-of-slutwalk/


 

The text you are quoting:

Well, richardm, you make quite a leap there by using "shaming" language --"all I can see are women acting like idiots" as well as making broad assumptions about how feminists (primarily white) might view "slutwalks."


In addition, your earlier link to an blog post about how women verbally abuse each other has little credibility given that the same blogger has a rating scale for men and women.


There are some interesting feminist critiques out there about the concept and execution of "slutwalks," some of which can be found here:


http://www.feministfrequency.com/2011/05/link-round-up-feminist-critiques-of-slutwalk/


 


Translator, Aug 22, 2011 @ 10:16
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Post 48

It all started in Toronto, when on January 24th, 2011, a representative of the Toronto Police gave shocking insight into the Force’s view of sexual assault by stating: “women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized”...

The Slut Walk protest march then became a movement that spread in many major cities of the world, such as Chicago and New Delhi. Here are some links to read more about it:

http://www.slutwalktoronto.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SlutWalk

There’s then been a debate going on over the question whether the victims could be blamed for being assaulted according to the way they dress.

It find it quite chocking to think rapists could be exonerated following this argument.

However, I find the debate interesting because it also raises a few other questions:

1) Freedom: unless one lives alone on a desert island, isn't it a utopia to think we are totally free? How far our liberty to dress the way we want goes? What are the limits? Are there some universal rules?

2) Slut: this word sounds pretty strong and negative and this is probably why it provoked such a strong reaction in return. Doesn't the word itself imply the guilt of the women who get raped? If the policeman really wanted to give an advice to women, wouldn't he have chosen more paternalistic / protective words? I believe the definition of a slut depends on each individual. If I may venture one definition myself, I would say, somebody wearing a sexually provocative outfit. But then isnt' it rather difficult to know what one would find sexually appealing or not? From some discussions I had with some male friends it seems that "slutty" clothes are not always the most sexy. Then, why put the blame on clothes which do not make a woman more attractive. It seems that provocation evolves throughout the years. In the '80s, the punks were considered provocative however today, the burqa in the western world is more considered as such.

3) Should we have a slut walk in Geneva? Wink


Aug 19, 11 16:10

Thanks for raising the topic, Izzie.


My opinion would be yes, only if such an event leads to the following activities:


a) encouraging more women to take self-defense classes to deal with street harassment as well as more serious sexual harassment and sexual violence;


b) strengthening of financial and other support for local organizations designed to assist victims of sexual assault and domestic violence;


c) periodic review of effectiveness of police and judicial procedures wrt sexual and domestic violence.


IMO, the best thing that has come out of the original "slutwalk" is the highlighting of certain attitudes held by certain policemen in Toronto.  Past that, we can't really evalute at this point.


There is a very interesting French movement that predates "slutwalks" called "Ni Putes Ni Soumises" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ni_Putes_Ni_Soumises


Here is another excellent critique of the "slutwalk" concept.


http://feministing.com/2011/05/18/slutwalk-to-march-or-not-to-march/

The text you are quoting:

Thanks for raising the topic, Izzie.


My opinion would be yes, only if such an event leads to the following activities:


a) encouraging more women to take self-defense classes to deal with street harassment as well as more serious sexual harassment and sexual violence;


b) strengthening of financial and other support for local organizations designed to assist victims of sexual assault and domestic violence;


c) periodic review of effectiveness of police and judicial procedures wrt sexual and domestic violence.


IMO, the best thing that has come out of the original "slutwalk" is the highlighting of certain attitudes held by certain policemen in Toronto.  Past that, we can't really evalute at this point.


There is a very interesting French movement that predates "slutwalks" called "Ni Putes Ni Soumises" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ni_Putes_Ni_Soumises


Here is another excellent critique of the "slutwalk" concept.


http://feministing.com/2011/05/18/slutwalk-to-march-or-not-to-march/


Translator, Aug 22, 2011 @ 10:25
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Post 49

Jan 1, 70 01:00

Hmmm... some "interesting statements there..."


1) "...Because I'm sure that if a good looking guy in a suit comes up to you and tells you in a decent way that you are looking good, you will like it."


How do you know? That is quite an assumption. A creep is a creep is a creep. And we know the difference between a simple, nice polite hello and the up-and-down, once over look.


2) "By the way, I think the main reason why they react to you like that is not the way you dress, but the simple fact that you're blond (and probably not hard on the eyes either)."


Er, um, Switzerland is not exactly a "southern" country. And how does this statement account for the fact that non-blondes are also being harassed and raped?


Most Dutch I know are pretty astute. They have two ears, yes, but they usually have a brain in between that keeps them from making such silly statements.


 

The text you are quoting:

Hmmm... some "interesting statements there..."


1) "...Because I'm sure that if a good looking guy in a suit comes up to you and tells you in a decent way that you are looking good, you will like it."


How do you know? That is quite an assumption. A creep is a creep is a creep. And we know the difference between a simple, nice polite hello and the up-and-down, once over look.


2) "By the way, I think the main reason why they react to you like that is not the way you dress, but the simple fact that you're blond (and probably not hard on the eyes either)."


Er, um, Switzerland is not exactly a "southern" country. And how does this statement account for the fact that non-blondes are also being harassed and raped?


Most Dutch I know are pretty astute. They have two ears, yes, but they usually have a brain in between that keeps them from making such silly statements.


 


Translator, Aug 22, 2011 @ 11:01
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Post 50

Aug 20, 11 09:51

http://blog.turgot.org/index.php?post/Fantasmes-sur-la-f%C3%A9condit%C3%A9-musulmane

The text you are quoting:

http://blog.turgot.org/index.php?post/Fantasmes-sur-la-f%C3%A9condit%C3%A9-musulmane


Mary_vdb, Aug 22, 2011 @ 12:04
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 51

Coming back to the original question, should you organize a slut walk in geneva?


Please send me a message if you DO decide to do so, I actually live in Zürich, but should such an event be planned, I would love to support and bring a bunch of like minded folks from the German area!


Cheers;


Andras

The text you are quoting:

Coming back to the original question, should you organize a slut walk in geneva?


Please send me a message if you DO decide to do so, I actually live in Zürich, but should such an event be planned, I would love to support and bring a bunch of like minded folks from the German area!


Cheers;


Andras


Andrash K, Aug 22, 2011 @ 13:21
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 52

Jan 1, 70 01:00

Why should it be amazing? If you read the actual text of the original SlutWalkToronto you will see the following:


"We are tired of being oppressed by slut-shaming; of being judged by our sexuality and feeling unsafe as a result. Being in charge of our sexual lives should not mean that we are opening ourselves to an expectation of violence, regardless if we participate in sex for pleasure or work. No one should equate enjoying sex with attracting sexual assault."


I do find it curious that a woman would tell another woman that she has some issues because she doesn't like being disrespected by men on the street.


In every modern legal system, freedom of speech has limits. These limits have been extended to the workplace where saying the equivalent of "ça va, cherie" is no longer acceptable, thank goodness.


As for agreeing to what the majority says, well, that can amount to mob rule and this is why majority rule must always be balanced with minority rights.


 

The text you are quoting:

Why should it be amazing? If you read the actual text of the original SlutWalkToronto you will see the following:


"We are tired of being oppressed by slut-shaming; of being judged by our sexuality and feeling unsafe as a result. Being in charge of our sexual lives should not mean that we are opening ourselves to an expectation of violence, regardless if we participate in sex for pleasure or work. No one should equate enjoying sex with attracting sexual assault."


I do find it curious that a woman would tell another woman that she has some issues because she doesn't like being disrespected by men on the street.


In every modern legal system, freedom of speech has limits. These limits have been extended to the workplace where saying the equivalent of "ça va, cherie" is no longer acceptable, thank goodness.


As for agreeing to what the majority says, well, that can amount to mob rule and this is why majority rule must always be balanced with minority rights.


 


Translator, Aug 22, 2011 @ 14:46
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 53

And by the way, the original poster's points for discussion were much broader than rape.


"However, I find the debate interesting because it also raises a few other questions:


1) Freedom: unless one lives alone on a desert island, isn't it a utopia to think we are totally free? How far our liberty to dress the way we want goes? What are the limits? Are there some universal rules?


2) Slut: this word sounds pretty strong and negative and this is probably why it provoked such a strong reaction in return. Doesn't the word itself imply the guilt of the women who get raped? If the policeman really wanted to give an advice to women, wouldn't he have chosen more paternalistic / protective words? I believe the definition of a slut depends on each individual. If I may venture one definition myself, I would say, somebody wearing a sexually provocative outfit. But then isnt' it rather difficult to know what one would find sexually appealing or not? From some discussions I had with some male friends it seems that "slutty" clothes are not always the most sexy. Then, why put the blame on clothes which do not make a woman more attractive. It seems that provocation evolves throughout the years. In the '80s, the punks were considered provocative however today, the burqa in the western world is more considered as such."

The text you are quoting:

And by the way, the original poster's points for discussion were much broader than rape.


"However, I find the debate interesting because it also raises a few other questions:


1) Freedom: unless one lives alone on a desert island, isn't it a utopia to think we are totally free? How far our liberty to dress the way we want goes? What are the limits? Are there some universal rules?


2) Slut: this word sounds pretty strong and negative and this is probably why it provoked such a strong reaction in return. Doesn't the word itself imply the guilt of the women who get raped? If the policeman really wanted to give an advice to women, wouldn't he have chosen more paternalistic / protective words? I believe the definition of a slut depends on each individual. If I may venture one definition myself, I would say, somebody wearing a sexually provocative outfit. But then isnt' it rather difficult to know what one would find sexually appealing or not? From some discussions I had with some male friends it seems that "slutty" clothes are not always the most sexy. Then, why put the blame on clothes which do not make a woman more attractive. It seems that provocation evolves throughout the years. In the '80s, the punks were considered provocative however today, the burqa in the western world is more considered as such."


Translator, Aug 22, 2011 @ 15:15
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 54

2 Live Crew offer a more respectable and elegant alternative to the word 'slut'.  Its called a "Hoochie Mamma" Cool 

The text you are quoting:

2 Live Crew offer a more respectable and elegant alternative to the word 'slut'.  Its called a "Hoochie Mamma" Cool 


Chris Shailos, Aug 22, 2011 @ 15:22
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 55

What is the proper way for a guy to compliment a woman?  Does culture matter or is the answer the same regardless?  Similarly, how should a woman compliment a man?  Is there a cultural nuance to that also, or should the same standard be applied everywhere?  Not talking sexual assault; talking verbal compliments.  Questions are as simple and incisive as they appear.


It's important to find the 'happy medium.'  On one end of the spectrum, any comment can be viewed as harrassment, which leads to unhealthy relationships in and out of the workplace.  The opposite extreme is obvious.  Somewhere in the middle is a recognition that men and women are generally attracted to each other, and in most cultures, women, from the time they are young girls, are generally taught to present themselves in a way men find attractive.  Some of that is cultural, some is biological.



Culturally, we have to be careful about stereotyping.  What, for example, is Southern country?  Do we under developed?  If so, in what way and by who's standards?  Somalia?  Indonesia?  Malaysia? Mali? or Austrialia?  In all but the last "southern" country, cat calls, etc are frowned upon.


Finally, as some have pointed out, before signing up for a slut walk in Geneva, it's important to identify the objective.  That objective, one would imagine, would be to address a specific local problem.  How prevalent is rape in Geneva?  Is it primarily based on the way women dress and focused on those in the sex industry; is it 'date rape;' is it in the household?  How prevalent is trafficing of females in Geneva?  Will the walk inadvertently reinforce that crime by endorsing the sex industry?


I don't know the answers to any of those personally, but with out them the walk is just a bunch of hot women walking down the street before everyone goes out to get a drink pick up on each other that evening (that's the way some guys and women respond to compliments).  Many will gather to watch the event, because it will be the largest collection of scantily dressed women ever to gather in a single Geneva location.  Thus, amongst those who's hearts are in the right place will also be the biggest collection of hypocrites ever gathered in one location, not to mention the non-hypocritical who make no bones about why they brought binoculars to the event.


It's unfortunate that the only ones who can address the matter head on are comedians. No one disagreed with Dave Chapelle...


 

The text you are quoting:

What is the proper way for a guy to compliment a woman?  Does culture matter or is the answer the same regardless?  Similarly, how should a woman compliment a man?  Is there a cultural nuance to that also, or should the same standard be applied everywhere?  Not talking sexual assault; talking verbal compliments.  Questions are as simple and incisive as they appear.


It's important to find the 'happy medium.'  On one end of the spectrum, any comment can be viewed as harrassment, which leads to unhealthy relationships in and out of the workplace.  The opposite extreme is obvious.  Somewhere in the middle is a recognition that men and women are generally attracted to each other, and in most cultures, women, from the time they are young girls, are generally taught to present themselves in a way men find attractive.  Some of that is cultural, some is biological.



Culturally, we have to be careful about stereotyping.  What, for example, is Southern country?  Do we under developed?  If so, in what way and by who's standards?  Somalia?  Indonesia?  Malaysia? Mali? or Austrialia?  In all but the last "southern" country, cat calls, etc are frowned upon.


Finally, as some have pointed out, before signing up for a slut walk in Geneva, it's important to identify the objective.  That objective, one would imagine, would be to address a specific local problem.  How prevalent is rape in Geneva?  Is it primarily based on the way women dress and focused on those in the sex industry; is it 'date rape;' is it in the household?  How prevalent is trafficing of females in Geneva?  Will the walk inadvertently reinforce that crime by endorsing the sex industry?


I don't know the answers to any of those personally, but with out them the walk is just a bunch of hot women walking down the street before everyone goes out to get a drink pick up on each other that evening (that's the way some guys and women respond to compliments).  Many will gather to watch the event, because it will be the largest collection of scantily dressed women ever to gather in a single Geneva location.  Thus, amongst those who's hearts are in the right place will also be the biggest collection of hypocrites ever gathered in one location, not to mention the non-hypocritical who make no bones about why they brought binoculars to the event.


It's unfortunate that the only ones who can address the matter head on are comedians. No one disagreed with Dave Chapelle...


 


Robert C, Aug 22, 2011 @ 20:25
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 56

@RobertC


"What is the proper way for a guy to compliment a woman?  Does culture matter or is the answer the same regardless?  Similarly, how should a woman compliment a man?  Is there a cultural nuance to that also, or should the same standard be applied everywhere?  Not talking sexual assault; talking verbal compliments.  Questions are as simple and incisive as they appear."


a) Ask yourself if you would say the same thing to your sister or your aunt or any other woman in your family to a woman you don't really know.


On the toughen up and "just let it slide" kind of approach. Well, women tried this for years with sexual harassment in the workplace.  Behaviors did not change significantly until laws came into force.


For years some women and men said rape within the marriage did not exist. Laws have changed, thank goodness.  Some people also wanted to let that slide.


 


 

The text you are quoting:

@RobertC


"What is the proper way for a guy to compliment a woman?  Does culture matter or is the answer the same regardless?  Similarly, how should a woman compliment a man?  Is there a cultural nuance to that also, or should the same standard be applied everywhere?  Not talking sexual assault; talking verbal compliments.  Questions are as simple and incisive as they appear."


a) Ask yourself if you would say the same thing to your sister or your aunt or any other woman in your family to a woman you don't really know.


On the toughen up and "just let it slide" kind of approach. Well, women tried this for years with sexual harassment in the workplace.  Behaviors did not change significantly until laws came into force.


For years some women and men said rape within the marriage did not exist. Laws have changed, thank goodness.  Some people also wanted to let that slide.


 


 


Translator, Aug 22, 2011 @ 20:34
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 57

What is the proper way for a guy to compliment a woman?  Does culture matter or is the answer the same regardless?  Similarly, how should a woman compliment a man?  Is there a cultural nuance to that also, or should the same standard be applied everywhere?  Not talking sexual assault; talking verbal compliments.  Questions are as simple and incisive as they appear.

It's important to find the 'happy medium.'  On one end of the spectrum, any comment can be viewed as harrassment, which leads to unhealthy relationships in and out of the workplace.  The opposite extreme is obvious.  Somewhere in the middle is a recognition that men and women are generally attracted to each other, and in most cultures, women, from the time they are young girls, are generally taught to present themselves in a way men find attractive.  Some of that is cultural, some is biological.

Culturally, we have to be careful about stereotyping.  What, for example, is Southern country?  Do we under developed?  If so, in what way and by who's standards?  Somalia?  Indonesia?  Malaysia? Mali? or Austrialia?  In all but the last "southern" country, cat calls, etc are frowned upon.

Finally, as some have pointed out, before signing up for a slut walk in Geneva, it's important to identify the objective.  That objective, one would imagine, would be to address a specific local problem.  How prevalent is rape in Geneva?  Is it primarily based on the way women dress and focused on those in the sex industry; is it 'date rape;' is it in the household?  How prevalent is trafficing of females in Geneva?  Will the walk inadvertently reinforce that crime by endorsing the sex industry?

I don't know the answers to any of those personally, but with out them the walk is just a bunch of hot women walking down the street before everyone goes out to get a drink pick up on each other that evening (that's the way some guys and women respond to compliments).  Many will gather to watch the event, because it will be the largest collection of scantily dressed women ever to gather in a single Geneva location.  Thus, amongst those who's hearts are in the right place will also be the biggest collection of hypocrites ever gathered in one location, not to mention the non-hypocritical who make no bones about why they brought binoculars to the event.

It's unfortunate that the only ones who can address the matter head on are comedians. No one disagreed with Dave Chapelle...

 


Aug 22, 11 20:25

Lordy - can't believe I'm back in this frey.....


To Robert C - I started off thinking a lot of what you said was interesting and justifiable and it was good that you put yourself out there and questioned some points and raised some points.    BUT, I'm afraid I stalled at the "no-one disagreed with Dave Chappelle" comment. 


Why?  Because its so insulting and stereotypical that we (women) chose to ignore it (note the lack of "thank poster").  It was relatively amusing to a point (but not really) until it got to the:


"you're not a whore, but you're wearing a whore's uniform" 'comedic ending'.


Oh my lord, how we all laughed our socks off at that little gem - Not.


You're obviously an intelligent guy, so I'm surprised you even began to find that funny - particularly in the concept of the post.


Over to you Valerie.....

The text you are quoting:

Lordy - can't believe I'm back in this frey.....


To Robert C - I started off thinking a lot of what you said was interesting and justifiable and it was good that you put yourself out there and questioned some points and raised some points.    BUT, I'm afraid I stalled at the "no-one disagreed with Dave Chappelle" comment. 


Why?  Because its so insulting and stereotypical that we (women) chose to ignore it (note the lack of "thank poster").  It was relatively amusing to a point (but not really) until it got to the:


"you're not a whore, but you're wearing a whore's uniform" 'comedic ending'.


Oh my lord, how we all laughed our socks off at that little gem - Not.


You're obviously an intelligent guy, so I'm surprised you even began to find that funny - particularly in the concept of the post.


Over to you Valerie.....


Carolyn C, Aug 22, 2011 @ 21:18
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 58

@Translator,


Good point.  I agree that respect is universal.  However, I do not believe that the compliment one pays his mother or sister would be anything like that paid to a woman to whom one is attracted.  As for not knowing her, it is culturally acceptable to "break the ice" with a compliment--part of the human mating ritual.  So, to refine the question, what is the proper way for a guy to compliment a woman to whom he is attracted?  Should we not acknowledge and accept sexual attraction and allow women and men to express the same?

The text you are quoting:

@Translator,


Good point.  I agree that respect is universal.  However, I do not believe that the compliment one pays his mother or sister would be anything like that paid to a woman to whom one is attracted.  As for not knowing her, it is culturally acceptable to "break the ice" with a compliment--part of the human mating ritual.  So, to refine the question, what is the proper way for a guy to compliment a woman to whom he is attracted?  Should we not acknowledge and accept sexual attraction and allow women and men to express the same?


Robert C, Aug 22, 2011 @ 21:28
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 59

@Translator,

Good point.  I agree that respect is universal.  However, I do not believe that the compliment one pays his mother or sister would be anything like that paid to a woman to whom one is attracted.  As for not knowing her, it is culturally acceptable to "break the ice" with a compliment--part of the human mating ritual.  So, to refine the question, what is the proper way for a guy to compliment a woman to whom he is attracted?  Should we not acknowledge and accept sexual attraction and allow women and men to express the same?


Aug 22, 11 21:28

Well, you didn't accept one of the proposals I put forward to you.


"Wow, Sis, you look really nice today."


"Hi there, you look really nice today." To someone you don't know.


How would you strike up a conversation with a guy? Why do you think you have to start with some sort of "compliment" on her physical attributes?


The smartest guys actually know this. That is one reason they are never without company.


 


 


 

The text you are quoting:

Well, you didn't accept one of the proposals I put forward to you.


"Wow, Sis, you look really nice today."


"Hi there, you look really nice today." To someone you don't know.


How would you strike up a conversation with a guy? Why do you think you have to start with some sort of "compliment" on her physical attributes?


The smartest guys actually know this. That is one reason they are never without company.


 


 


 


Translator, Aug 22, 2011 @ 21:38
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 60

BTW in Switzerland:


current legal voting age:  18


current legal prostitution age: 16


Apparently the law is supposed to change soon however they've been saying that for years.

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BTW in Switzerland:


current legal voting age:  18


current legal prostitution age: 16


Apparently the law is supposed to change soon however they've been saying that for years.


Translator, Aug 22, 2011 @ 21:42
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 61

To Carolyn,


Sorry if I wasn't clear.  My point is that comedians can talk straight at the issue and make some laugh and all think.  

The text you are quoting:

To Carolyn,


Sorry if I wasn't clear.  My point is that comedians can talk straight at the issue and make some laugh and all think.  


Robert C, Aug 22, 2011 @ 21:34
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 62

I concur with the "hi there, you really look nice today," except of course for my sister--I'm like most brothers.  I also know for a fact that some women take offense to such a compliment.  


"Why do you think you have to start with some sort of "compliment" on her physical attributes?"--Not suggesting it's mandatory, just accepted and common.  Appears we're trying to breed the sexuality out of humans completely.  Unrealistic.


Your second post really strikes home and in my opinion is more salient.  Would be worth focusing on saving minors from prostitution instead of stopping men from acknowledging femine beauty that has been the focus of artists since cave sketches.

The text you are quoting:

I concur with the "hi there, you really look nice today," except of course for my sister--I'm like most brothers.  I also know for a fact that some women take offense to such a compliment.  


"Why do you think you have to start with some sort of "compliment" on her physical attributes?"--Not suggesting it's mandatory, just accepted and common.  Appears we're trying to breed the sexuality out of humans completely.  Unrealistic.


Your second post really strikes home and in my opinion is more salient.  Would be worth focusing on saving minors from prostitution instead of stopping men from acknowledging femine beauty that has been the focus of artists since cave sketches.


Robert C, Aug 22, 2011 @ 21:55
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 63

Well, you didn't accept one of the proposals I put forward to you.

"Wow, Sis, you look really nice today."

"Hi there, you look really nice today." To someone you don't know.

How would you strike up a conversation with a guy? Why do you think you have to start with some sort of "compliment" on her physical attributes?

The smartest guys actually know this. That is one reason they are never without company.

 

 

 


Aug 22, 11 21:38

I think we're going a little off topic but to add to this:


I kiss my sisters on the lips when I meet them and nobody thinks I'm gay - I tell them they look beautiful and gorgeous because they are.  I meet my male friends in the same way - I kiss them on the lips and tell them they look beautiful and gorgeous and no-one thinks I fancy them.


Life is all about the appreciation of beauty - inside or outside.  If you're close to someone then you will treat them one way - but if you're not close to someone, then why treat them differently? Some women are beautiful on the outside but shallow, senseless self absorbed indivduals on the inside - so are some men. Some women are ugly on the outside (according to media stereotypes) but beautiful, selfless individuals, on the inside. So are some men.


Compliments are only ever compliments and should be taken as such.  Work it out.


As Translator says - you never see a smart guy without a woman ( - and you never see a smart woman without a man)  :-)

The text you are quoting:

I think we're going a little off topic but to add to this:


I kiss my sisters on the lips when I meet them and nobody thinks I'm gay - I tell them they look beautiful and gorgeous because they are.  I meet my male friends in the same way - I kiss them on the lips and tell them they look beautiful and gorgeous and no-one thinks I fancy them.


Life is all about the appreciation of beauty - inside or outside.  If you're close to someone then you will treat them one way - but if you're not close to someone, then why treat them differently? Some women are beautiful on the outside but shallow, senseless self absorbed indivduals on the inside - so are some men. Some women are ugly on the outside (according to media stereotypes) but beautiful, selfless individuals, on the inside. So are some men.


Compliments are only ever compliments and should be taken as such.  Work it out.


As Translator says - you never see a smart guy without a woman ( - and you never see a smart woman without a man)  :-)


Carolyn C, Aug 22, 2011 @ 21:54
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 64

I think we're going a little off topic but to add to this:

I kiss my sisters on the lips when I meet them and nobody thinks I'm gay - I tell them they look beautiful and gorgeous because they are.  I meet my male friends in the same way - I kiss them on the lips and tell them they look beautiful and gorgeous and no-one thinks I fancy them.

Life is all about the appreciation of beauty - inside or outside.  If you're close to someone then you will treat them one way - but if you're not close to someone, then why treat them differently? Some women are beautiful on the outside but shallow, senseless self absorbed indivduals on the inside - so are some men. Some women are ugly on the outside (according to media stereotypes) but beautiful, selfless individuals, on the inside. So are some men.

Compliments are only ever compliments and should be taken as such.  Work it out.

As Translator says - you never see a smart guy without a woman ( - and you never see a smart woman without a man)  :-)


Aug 22, 11 21:54

Now I really can't wait to meet you! Mwah, mwah, smack, smack! Kiss

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Now I really can't wait to meet you! Mwah, mwah, smack, smack! Kiss


Translator, Aug 22, 2011 @ 22:38
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 65

I concur with the "hi there, you really look nice today," except of course for my sister--I'm like most brothers.  I also know for a fact that some women take offense to such a compliment.  

"Why do you think you have to start with some sort of "compliment" on her physical attributes?"--Not suggesting it's mandatory, just accepted and common.  Appears we're trying to breed the sexuality out of humans completely.  Unrealistic.

Your second post really strikes home and in my opinion is more salient.  Would be worth focusing on saving minors from prostitution instead of stopping men from acknowledging femine beauty that has been the focus of artists since cave sketches.


Aug 22, 11 21:55

Dude!


This whole "men as animals who can't control themselves" thing, like are you saying you must be allowed to "acknowledge feminine beauty" or you'll, like, spontaneously combust?


Ok, try this thought. Would you "acknowledge the feminine beauty"of a close friend's sister to his face?

The text you are quoting:

Dude!


This whole "men as animals who can't control themselves" thing, like are you saying you must be allowed to "acknowledge feminine beauty" or you'll, like, spontaneously combust?


Ok, try this thought. Would you "acknowledge the feminine beauty"of a close friend's sister to his face?


Translator, Aug 22, 2011 @ 22:40
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 66
The text you are quoting:

Translator, Aug 22, 2011 @ 23:01
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 67

Sandine, I agree with the walk.  I disagree with your evaluation of how far we've evolved.  Many would like to think we have evolved further then we obviously have.  Herein lies the problem.  


Aug 22, 11 06:44

Haha that's a very cynical view of the world.

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Haha that's a very cynical view of the world.


Sandrine S, Aug 22, 2011 @ 22:35
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 68

You're reading into what I'm saying and making it personal. I am not offering absolutes.


And of course I have complimented friend's sisters and they've complimented mine.  I believe there is an acceptable way to do that.  


With a 50% divorce rate and plenty of single women and men, there are a lot of "non-smart" people out there.



 

The text you are quoting:

You're reading into what I'm saying and making it personal. I am not offering absolutes.


And of course I have complimented friend's sisters and they've complimented mine.  I believe there is an acceptable way to do that.  


With a 50% divorce rate and plenty of single women and men, there are a lot of "non-smart" people out there.



 


Robert C, Aug 22, 2011 @ 23:06
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 69

Jan 1, 70 01:00

I do believe I made it quite clear that I too recognize the difference between rape and these comments. However, as someone else already stated the discussion was started with general views on sexual harassment and this Slutwalk movement also includes views on general sexual harassment.


For the record it doesn't matter what HE wears to change my opinion. Also, there is a difference in a 'bonjour' or a 'ca va cherie'. The tone is different.


Maybe you are right, it's not related to my clothes. But depending on what I wear I receive more or less of these comments.


And for the record, my profile might say I'm Swedish because I have lived there most of my life, but I too come from the Netherlands. And I think if you have any self respect you won't let someone speak to you in such a manner.


Unwanted sexual attention, be it physical or not, is still sexual harassment. There's such a thing as verbal harassment.

The text you are quoting:

I do believe I made it quite clear that I too recognize the difference between rape and these comments. However, as someone else already stated the discussion was started with general views on sexual harassment and this Slutwalk movement also includes views on general sexual harassment.


For the record it doesn't matter what HE wears to change my opinion. Also, there is a difference in a 'bonjour' or a 'ca va cherie'. The tone is different.


Maybe you are right, it's not related to my clothes. But depending on what I wear I receive more or less of these comments.


And for the record, my profile might say I'm Swedish because I have lived there most of my life, but I too come from the Netherlands. And I think if you have any self respect you won't let someone speak to you in such a manner.


Unwanted sexual attention, be it physical or not, is still sexual harassment. There's such a thing as verbal harassment.


Sandrine S, Aug 22, 2011 @ 23:03
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 70

You're reading into what I'm saying and making it personal. I am not offering absolutes.

And of course I have complimented friend's sisters and they've complimented mine.  I believe there is an acceptable way to do that.  

With a 50% divorce rate and plenty of single women and men, there are a lot of "non-smart" people out there.

 


Aug 22, 11 23:06

No, no, not making it personal at all.


I just don't understand that if you know the acceptable way to compliment your friend's sister, for example, why not use the same respectful approach to a woman you don't know?


The divorce rate may or may not be related to this conversation. People get divorced for many reasons. And many people are in loving, stable and long-term relationships without marriage.  


Yes, there are plenty of single people out there for any number of reasons. Some are smart, some are not.


But why not simply try to start a conversation based upon mutual interests rather than a compliment on physical attributes, even if you are attracted to someone?


 

The text you are quoting:

No, no, not making it personal at all.


I just don't understand that if you know the acceptable way to compliment your friend's sister, for example, why not use the same respectful approach to a woman you don't know?


The divorce rate may or may not be related to this conversation. People get divorced for many reasons. And many people are in loving, stable and long-term relationships without marriage.  


Yes, there are plenty of single people out there for any number of reasons. Some are smart, some are not.


But why not simply try to start a conversation based upon mutual interests rather than a compliment on physical attributes, even if you are attracted to someone?


 


Translator, Aug 22, 2011 @ 23:15
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 71

Reka, I agree that there are many reasons.  What I don't agree with is the earlier comments that "every smart man has a woman and every smart woman has a man."  I think comments like that detract from the point.  I believe the point to be that there is a line between acceptable and unacceptable behavoir, particularly when directed toward a woman.  However, that line, I think, is not cut and dry; there are no absolutes.  


So, I was only using the stats to point out that there are many "smart" men and women who do not have a mate, for any number of reasons.



 

The text you are quoting:

Reka, I agree that there are many reasons.  What I don't agree with is the earlier comments that "every smart man has a woman and every smart woman has a man."  I think comments like that detract from the point.  I believe the point to be that there is a line between acceptable and unacceptable behavoir, particularly when directed toward a woman.  However, that line, I think, is not cut and dry; there are no absolutes.  


So, I was only using the stats to point out that there are many "smart" men and women who do not have a mate, for any number of reasons.



 


Robert C, Aug 22, 2011 @ 23:24
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 72

Jan 1, 70 01:00

Oh and by the way, I am also a firm believer in freedom of speach. And this is in no way some plot to forbid people to say what they want. However, I think we girls should get to say what WE want to these guys, and you never dare to or get the chance for that when you meet them when you are walking home alone late at night.

The text you are quoting:

Oh and by the way, I am also a firm believer in freedom of speach. And this is in no way some plot to forbid people to say what they want. However, I think we girls should get to say what WE want to these guys, and you never dare to or get the chance for that when you meet them when you are walking home alone late at night.


Sandrine S, Aug 22, 2011 @ 23:10
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 73

Divorce comment was related to your assertion that every smart man has a woman.


There are many ways to start a conversation. Acceptable among them is with a compliment.  The point at which a compliment is an insult is subjective--within reason of course.  Were that not the case, there would not be women who respond favorably to what others are insulted by.  Happens every day.  For an act to be considered harassment, it must be unwelcome/unwanted.  My questions were not loaded.  The question is attempting to get at the definition of "the line" that once crossed is no longer complimentary.  So far, it appears we've established that compliments may be appropriate.

The text you are quoting:

Divorce comment was related to your assertion that every smart man has a woman.


There are many ways to start a conversation. Acceptable among them is with a compliment.  The point at which a compliment is an insult is subjective--within reason of course.  Were that not the case, there would not be women who respond favorably to what others are insulted by.  Happens every day.  For an act to be considered harassment, it must be unwelcome/unwanted.  My questions were not loaded.  The question is attempting to get at the definition of "the line" that once crossed is no longer complimentary.  So far, it appears we've established that compliments may be appropriate.


Robert C, Aug 22, 2011 @ 23:25
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 74

Jan 1, 70 01:00

So as a (blonde) woman I should just get used to being yelled at, whistled at and shouted after? In my opinion the whole point of a free society is to be able to walk freely and safely on the streets whenever and however you want.

The text you are quoting:

So as a (blonde) woman I should just get used to being yelled at, whistled at and shouted after? In my opinion the whole point of a free society is to be able to walk freely and safely on the streets whenever and however you want.


Sandrine S, Aug 22, 2011 @ 23:32
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Post 75

Well, Reka, I certainly agree with your final paragraph. 


If one goes out around 9pm and afterwards, one can see apparently quite young girls and boys hanging out in front of McDonald's Rive. I wonder where the hell their parents are and what is going on at home.


No one really knows how many women experience rape because it is one of the mosts underreported crimes in nearly every country. Much of this has to do with shaming the victim.  And don't even get started on the subject of date rape!


Of course we don't live in a bubble but one hopes that society can evolve in the treatment of respect for women and children. This should also include a reduction of street harassment. In my opinion, the more men speak out against it, the less it will be socially acceptable.


After all, some of these men appear to be acting out in front of other men in an attempt to demonstrate sexual prowess.


 


 


 

The text you are quoting:

Well, Reka, I certainly agree with your final paragraph. 


If one goes out around 9pm and afterwards, one can see apparently quite young girls and boys hanging out in front of McDonald's Rive. I wonder where the hell their parents are and what is going on at home.


No one really knows how many women experience rape because it is one of the mosts underreported crimes in nearly every country. Much of this has to do with shaming the victim.  And don't even get started on the subject of date rape!


Of course we don't live in a bubble but one hopes that society can evolve in the treatment of respect for women and children. This should also include a reduction of street harassment. In my opinion, the more men speak out against it, the less it will be socially acceptable.


After all, some of these men appear to be acting out in front of other men in an attempt to demonstrate sexual prowess.


 


 


 


Translator, Aug 22, 2011 @ 23:54
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 76

Jan 1, 70 01:00

Yes you took it to the extreme since I (as I stated before) am not aiming to forbid anything. I just want to be able to express my feelings and views on this in public in the hope that it will be heard by some of these guys. Because when you are alone at night you are not always able to 'hollaback' as some say or just respond as you wish since you are worried about the safety.


Also, people are hung up on the 'ca va cherie' part, but I'm pretty sure I pointed out that they consequently follow me for a while and often follow up with a 'why are you walking away'. This is far more disturbing than the 'ca va cherie'. If I do not respond and/or walk away without eye contact, it's a pretty clear sign that I wish to be left alone.


Anyway, regarding the "we should focus on reaching out to boys to teach them to respect women and also girls to respect themselves so much that they do not sell themselves for designer bags, clothes over glocals....(this is not a comment reg you but heard many stories since I am in Geneve....)" I fully agree. I think many girls need to respect themselves as well and indeed it is best to teach men how to respect women when they are little boys.


And I just want to point out that slutwalk is not necessarily connected to parading around in slutty clothes. Like any demonstration there will be some form of march with slogans. Yes, some girls chose to take the slut part very literally, which is their choice. But many people walk in normal clothes, just shouting the message.

The text you are quoting:

Yes you took it to the extreme since I (as I stated before) am not aiming to forbid anything. I just want to be able to express my feelings and views on this in public in the hope that it will be heard by some of these guys. Because when you are alone at night you are not always able to 'hollaback' as some say or just respond as you wish since you are worried about the safety.


Also, people are hung up on the 'ca va cherie' part, but I'm pretty sure I pointed out that they consequently follow me for a while and often follow up with a 'why are you walking away'. This is far more disturbing than the 'ca va cherie'. If I do not respond and/or walk away without eye contact, it's a pretty clear sign that I wish to be left alone.


Anyway, regarding the "we should focus on reaching out to boys to teach them to respect women and also girls to respect themselves so much that they do not sell themselves for designer bags, clothes over glocals....(this is not a comment reg you but heard many stories since I am in Geneve....)" I fully agree. I think many girls need to respect themselves as well and indeed it is best to teach men how to respect women when they are little boys.


And I just want to point out that slutwalk is not necessarily connected to parading around in slutty clothes. Like any demonstration there will be some form of march with slogans. Yes, some girls chose to take the slut part very literally, which is their choice. But many people walk in normal clothes, just shouting the message.


Sandrine S, Aug 23, 2011 @ 00:07
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 77

Divorce comment was related to your assertion that every smart man has a woman.

There are many ways to start a conversation. Acceptable among them is with a compliment.  The point at which a compliment is an insult is subjective--within reason of course.  Were that not the case, there would not be women who respond favorably to what others are insulted by.  Happens every day.  For an act to be considered harassment, it must be unwelcome/unwanted.  My questions were not loaded.  The question is attempting to get at the definition of "the line" that once crossed is no longer complimentary.  So far, it appears we've established that compliments may be appropriate.


Aug 22, 11 23:25

Yes, maybe appropriate and probably in the same manner that one would compliment a friend's sister.


There are many things that happen every day. This does not make them acceptable nor desirable. Some girls and women do not have the confidence to reject verbal assaults or unwanted attention. Some smile nervously when approached in this way. 


Why do men behave respectfully towards their friend's sisters? Well, as the videos illustrate, the potential threat of force as well as mutual respect often keeps bad behavior in check.


I do not really think the SlutWalk concept is an effective one for many reasons. But I agree with the spirit in which it was initiated.

The text you are quoting:

Yes, maybe appropriate and probably in the same manner that one would compliment a friend's sister.


There are many things that happen every day. This does not make them acceptable nor desirable. Some girls and women do not have the confidence to reject verbal assaults or unwanted attention. Some smile nervously when approached in this way. 


Why do men behave respectfully towards their friend's sisters? Well, as the videos illustrate, the potential threat of force as well as mutual respect often keeps bad behavior in check.


I do not really think the SlutWalk concept is an effective one for many reasons. But I agree with the spirit in which it was initiated.


Translator, Aug 23, 2011 @ 00:03
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Post 78

Jan 1, 70 01:00

You are correct, however the law evolves and even a decade or two ago, repeated harassment was not effectively prosecuted. 


In Switzerland, there was a very interesting case of a man nominated to the top defense position. As it turned out, he had repeatedly harassed an ex-girlfriend in numeous and very serious ways including posting her telephone number on sex sites.


He was not prosecuted. He did not serve jail time. He did not get the post. He was, however, awarded a lump-sum "compensation" package for not getting the job...


 

The text you are quoting:

You are correct, however the law evolves and even a decade or two ago, repeated harassment was not effectively prosecuted. 


In Switzerland, there was a very interesting case of a man nominated to the top defense position. As it turned out, he had repeatedly harassed an ex-girlfriend in numeous and very serious ways including posting her telephone number on sex sites.


He was not prosecuted. He did not serve jail time. He did not get the post. He was, however, awarded a lump-sum "compensation" package for not getting the job...


 


Translator, Aug 23, 2011 @ 00:17
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Post 80

@ Translator:


Your vignette is unfortunate and happens far too often; there's a long fight ahead in that regard.  However, I agree with Reka that this case goes beyond harassment.  There are a number of offenses involved.  Likewise, I am concerned about overly regulating/defining harassment.  Just as there are men who get away with terrible things that they should not, there are women who use sexual harassment as an excuse to achieve other motives.  If looked at objectively, the former is likely more common than the latter, but either way, we can only regulate so much before the state is imposing the will of a few or the will of a disaffected majority.  

The text you are quoting:

@ Translator:


Your vignette is unfortunate and happens far too often; there's a long fight ahead in that regard.  However, I agree with Reka that this case goes beyond harassment.  There are a number of offenses involved.  Likewise, I am concerned about overly regulating/defining harassment.  Just as there are men who get away with terrible things that they should not, there are women who use sexual harassment as an excuse to achieve other motives.  If looked at objectively, the former is likely more common than the latter, but either way, we can only regulate so much before the state is imposing the will of a few or the will of a disaffected majority.  


Robert C, Aug 23, 2011 @ 00:31
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Post 81

If anyone has been a victim of violence, particularly rape or domestic violence here in Geneva, the person can get excellent assistance from this office:


http://www.centrelavi-ge.ch/sites/default/files/LAVI_Violence_en.pdf


The Center provides immediate help, free of charge.  


022 320 01 02, 72 Boulevard de St. Georges, next to the COOP


tram stop, le Cirque, trams 13, 14, 15

The text you are quoting:

If anyone has been a victim of violence, particularly rape or domestic violence here in Geneva, the person can get excellent assistance from this office:


http://www.centrelavi-ge.ch/sites/default/files/LAVI_Violence_en.pdf


The Center provides immediate help, free of charge.  


022 320 01 02, 72 Boulevard de St. Georges, next to the COOP


tram stop, le Cirque, trams 13, 14, 15


Translator, Aug 23, 2011 @ 00:34
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Post 82

I agree with you in principle, but it appears he's not been proven guilty of anything.  Just process is required, which is one of the negative effects of over-regulating sexual harassment. Men are automatically presumed guilty...not that he is or is not.

The text you are quoting:

I agree with you in principle, but it appears he's not been proven guilty of anything.  Just process is required, which is one of the negative effects of over-regulating sexual harassment. Men are automatically presumed guilty...not that he is or is not.


Robert C, Aug 23, 2011 @ 00:39
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 83

Reka, for the first time, I disagree with you.  I've spent quite a bit of time in Budapest and I don't think it's an ethnic or cultural thing.

The text you are quoting:

Reka, for the first time, I disagree with you.  I've spent quite a bit of time in Budapest and I don't think it's an ethnic or cultural thing.


Robert C, Aug 23, 2011 @ 00:46
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 84

@ Translator:

Your vignette is unfortunate and happens far too often; there's a long fight ahead in that regard.  However, I agree with Reka that this case goes beyond harassment.  There are a number of offenses involved.  Likewise, I am concerned about overly regulating/defining harassment.  Just as there are men who get away with terrible things that they should not, there are women who use sexual harassment as an excuse to achieve other motives.  If looked at objectively, the former is likely more common than the latter, but either way, we can only regulate so much before the state is imposing the will of a few or the will of a disaffected majority.  


Aug 23, 11 00:31

Well, yes.


However, there is legislating and there is prosecution. If rape and domestic violence were more effectively prosecuted -- against rich and poor like -- I think street harassment would also probably lessen. 


I do not equate "compliments," "unwanted attention," "verbal abuse" and "attempted rape" and "rape."  But they can be degrees of imposition of power by one person on another.


I think many people forget that rape is a crime that is constructed upon power through the use of sex.


As I have written before, there is an evolution in the law. And of course, I know that particularly in the history of the United States, the charge of rape was often used against black men who were then lynched by white mobs.


There are too many cases to mention but the most celebrated of which spring to mind is that of Emmet Till  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Till


The irony of this historical issue is that essentially the law did not effectively punish white men for rape -- with rare exceptions mostly related to class -- against white women.


 

The text you are quoting:

Well, yes.


However, there is legislating and there is prosecution. If rape and domestic violence were more effectively prosecuted -- against rich and poor like -- I think street harassment would also probably lessen. 


I do not equate "compliments," "unwanted attention," "verbal abuse" and "attempted rape" and "rape."  But they can be degrees of imposition of power by one person on another.


I think many people forget that rape is a crime that is constructed upon power through the use of sex.


As I have written before, there is an evolution in the law. And of course, I know that particularly in the history of the United States, the charge of rape was often used against black men who were then lynched by white mobs.


There are too many cases to mention but the most celebrated of which spring to mind is that of Emmet Till  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Till


The irony of this historical issue is that essentially the law did not effectively punish white men for rape -- with rare exceptions mostly related to class -- against white women.


 


Translator, Aug 23, 2011 @ 00:42
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Post 85

I agree with you in principle, but it appears he's not been proven guilty of anything.  Just process is required, which is one of the negative effects of over-regulating sexual harassment. Men are automatically presumed guilty...not that he is or is not.


Aug 23, 11 00:39

No, I do not agree that men are presumed guilty. In fact, there is a great deal of case law in many countries around the world that disprove your assertion.


Men of a certain race, class, and status are not prosecuted at the same rates as others without  the same resources and/or status.


This is exactly why rape is an underreported crime. What happens is the "victim" and her reputation are put on trial.


Just look at the recent case of the two NYC cops who repeatedly visited the apartment of a  woman who they knew was drunk and had sex  with her. Under the law, an inebriated person cannot be said to give their consent. These two guys were acquitted.


On the Nef affair, you will have to look into more detailed reports from the Sonntags Zeitung and other press. Swissinfo is the government information platform and Swiss privacy laws are such that much is restricted. 


Sonntags Zeitung published a copy of the Zurich police report that detailed the serial harassment. In addition, if you look at the swissinfo article in the box, you can read that Nef essentially admits to harassment by saying he had not behaved correctly.


 


 

The text you are quoting:

No, I do not agree that men are presumed guilty. In fact, there is a great deal of case law in many countries around the world that disprove your assertion.


Men of a certain race, class, and status are not prosecuted at the same rates as others without  the same resources and/or status.


This is exactly why rape is an underreported crime. What happens is the "victim" and her reputation are put on trial.


Just look at the recent case of the two NYC cops who repeatedly visited the apartment of a  woman who they knew was drunk and had sex  with her. Under the law, an inebriated person cannot be said to give their consent. These two guys were acquitted.


On the Nef affair, you will have to look into more detailed reports from the Sonntags Zeitung and other press. Swissinfo is the government information platform and Swiss privacy laws are such that much is restricted. 


Sonntags Zeitung published a copy of the Zurich police report that detailed the serial harassment. In addition, if you look at the swissinfo article in the box, you can read that Nef essentially admits to harassment by saying he had not behaved correctly.


 


 


Translator, Aug 23, 2011 @ 01:27
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Post 86

Yep, DSK charges dropped by Cy Vance, Jr.


http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/22/strauss-kahn-accuser-and-lawyer-meet-with-prosecutors/


On DSK legal team:


http://www.showbiz411.com/2011/08/22/dsks-team-includes-former-cia-agents-and-super-prosecutors


On DSK and behavior at IMF: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/dsk-did-the-imf-look-the-other-way-08112011.html


What She Did and Didn't Say in Fulani in a Phone Conversation:


http://www.thelocal.fr/687/20110728/


If sex was consensual and she was a prostitute, why wasn't DSK charged under NYC prostitution laws? His legal team admitted that he had sex with her.

The text you are quoting:

Yep, DSK charges dropped by Cy Vance, Jr.


http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/22/strauss-kahn-accuser-and-lawyer-meet-with-prosecutors/


On DSK legal team:


http://www.showbiz411.com/2011/08/22/dsks-team-includes-former-cia-agents-and-super-prosecutors


On DSK and behavior at IMF: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/dsk-did-the-imf-look-the-other-way-08112011.html


What She Did and Didn't Say in Fulani in a Phone Conversation:


http://www.thelocal.fr/687/20110728/


If sex was consensual and she was a prostitute, why wasn't DSK charged under NYC prostitution laws? His legal team admitted that he had sex with her.


Translator, Aug 23, 2011 @ 01:54
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Post 87

Reka, I see your point and think you may be on to something regarding cultural assimilation. I must also say, however, that the unceasing solicitation that I get when I walk through the center of Budapest or try to go into my hotel at night would be considered harassment by many.  Others would say "she's just doing her job."  A bit of a double standard there, but it is what it is.  Finally, Translator's example, Kahn, is probably not of the same ethnicity as the group you're referring to.  Perhaps different cultures simply use different techniques to harass?


Translator, is it possible that Kahn is innocent? Is there enough evidence to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt? The Bizweek article talks about his reputation and questionable habits, but the accusor has the same problem with her background, so we have a goose and gander issue.  How often are men falsely accused of rape or harassment?  Who keeps that statistic?  Again, not saying this excuses those who are guilty, and the women are likely victimized more often, but why do we look at only one side of the coin and not even acknowledge the other side, which is problematic as well? 



 

The text you are quoting:

Reka, I see your point and think you may be on to something regarding cultural assimilation. I must also say, however, that the unceasing solicitation that I get when I walk through the center of Budapest or try to go into my hotel at night would be considered harassment by many.  Others would say "she's just doing her job."  A bit of a double standard there, but it is what it is.  Finally, Translator's example, Kahn, is probably not of the same ethnicity as the group you're referring to.  Perhaps different cultures simply use different techniques to harass?


Translator, is it possible that Kahn is innocent? Is there enough evidence to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt? The Bizweek article talks about his reputation and questionable habits, but the accusor has the same problem with her background, so we have a goose and gander issue.  How often are men falsely accused of rape or harassment?  Who keeps that statistic?  Again, not saying this excuses those who are guilty, and the women are likely victimized more often, but why do we look at only one side of the coin and not even acknowledge the other side, which is problematic as well? 



 


Robert C, Aug 23, 2011 @ 06:47
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Post 88

Jan 1, 70 01:00

Hmm interesting point. I too shall go in the racist direction then since the guys that won't leave me alone do not share the same ethnic origin per se, but are clearly not Swiss... But still it is 'allowed' here and they can continue. If it is not 'the Swiss way', all the more reason to have some action against it!

The text you are quoting:

Hmm interesting point. I too shall go in the racist direction then since the guys that won't leave me alone do not share the same ethnic origin per se, but are clearly not Swiss... But still it is 'allowed' here and they can continue. If it is not 'the Swiss way', all the more reason to have some action against it!


Sandrine S, Aug 23, 2011 @ 07:07
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Post 89

@ Translator:

Your vignette is unfortunate and happens far too often; there's a long fight ahead in that regard.  However, I agree with Reka that this case goes beyond harassment.  There are a number of offenses involved.  Likewise, I am concerned about overly regulating/defining harassment.  Just as there are men who get away with terrible things that they should not, there are women who use sexual harassment as an excuse to achieve other motives.  If looked at objectively, the former is likely more common than the latter, but either way, we can only regulate so much before the state is imposing the will of a few or the will of a disaffected majority.  


Aug 23, 11 00:31

I do agree that there are women who abuse the sexual harassment laws, and these women I think hurt emancipation and equality just as much, if not more, as the men that do the actual harassment.

The text you are quoting:

I do agree that there are women who abuse the sexual harassment laws, and these women I think hurt emancipation and equality just as much, if not more, as the men that do the actual harassment.


Sandrine S, Aug 23, 2011 @ 07:08
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Post 90

I do agree that there are women who abuse the sexual harassment laws, and these women I think hurt emancipation and equality just as much, if not more, as the men that do the actual harassment.


Aug 23, 11 07:08

Sandrine, I agree, but believe it goes beyond "emancipation," as I'm not sure I'm in line with that concept.  I think they simply hurt people in general.


http://www.mens-rights.net/law/harassment.htm  


The commonality of false accusations cannot be defined with precision, however there is enough evidence to suggest that they are high enough to be of concern to the public. According to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC), 2,119 accusations of sexual harassment were filed in 1991. At least 59% of them were found to have had no cause. [3]


 

"Alan Dershowitz's experience with an esoteric definition of sexual harassment also raises questions about false allegations in this newly-defined but widely publicized crime. Skeptical checking has revealed that, as with rape, the percentage of unfounded accusations of sexual harassment may reach astonishingly high levels. That was the claim of Randy Daniels, whose confirmation for New York City's Deputy Mayor was almost derailed by a sexual harassment charge he was able to refute. To see whether his experience was relatively rare, Daniels checked with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. He found that in 1991, the EEOC investigated or mediated 2119 cases of sexual harassment and found that 59% were determined to have no cause (Daniels, 1993, p. 1). Since the Hill/Thomas affair they have gone up sharply — up 64% in one year — but so have false allegations, remaining steadily in the plus 50% range."



 


 

The text you are quoting:

Sandrine, I agree, but believe it goes beyond "emancipation," as I'm not sure I'm in line with that concept.  I think they simply hurt people in general.


http://www.mens-rights.net/law/harassment.htm  


The commonality of false accusations cannot be defined with precision, however there is enough evidence to suggest that they are high enough to be of concern to the public. According to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC), 2,119 accusations of sexual harassment were filed in 1991. At least 59% of them were found to have had no cause. [3]


 

"Alan Dershowitz's experience with an esoteric definition of sexual harassment also raises questions about false allegations in this newly-defined but widely publicized crime. Skeptical checking has revealed that, as with rape, the percentage of unfounded accusations of sexual harassment may reach astonishingly high levels. That was the claim of Randy Daniels, whose confirmation for New York City's Deputy Mayor was almost derailed by a sexual harassment charge he was able to refute. To see whether his experience was relatively rare, Daniels checked with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. He found that in 1991, the EEOC investigated or mediated 2119 cases of sexual harassment and found that 59% were determined to have no cause (Daniels, 1993, p. 1). Since the Hill/Thomas affair they have gone up sharply — up 64% in one year — but so have false allegations, remaining steadily in the plus 50% range."



 


 


Robert C, Aug 23, 2011 @ 07:14
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 91

Reka, I see your point and think you may be on to something regarding cultural assimilation. I must also say, however, that the unceasing solicitation that I get when I walk through the center of Budapest or try to go into my hotel at night would be considered harassment by many.  Others would say "she's just doing her job."  A bit of a double standard there, but it is what it is.  Finally, Translator's example, Kahn, is probably not of the same ethnicity as the group you're referring to.  Perhaps different cultures simply use different techniques to harass?

Translator, is it possible that Kahn is innocent? Is there enough evidence to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt? The Bizweek article talks about his reputation and questionable habits, but the accusor has the same problem with her background, so we have a goose and gander issue.  How often are men falsely accused of rape or harassment?  Who keeps that statistic?  Again, not saying this excuses those who are guilty, and the women are likely victimized more often, but why do we look at only one side of the coin and not even acknowledge the other side, which is problematic as well? 

 


Aug 23, 11 06:47

I agree, any abuse is wrong. It is not a women vs men thing. I strongly defend men who are abused and manipulated and we should always be very careful in judging without clear evidence.


Sexual attraction is clearly a power. Everyday life can be also much easier for a pretty woman or a good-looking guy. I am thinking about better jobs, etc. That's not unfair, that's just the way it is, we're equal in theory like we're free in theory but not totally...


I think we all acknowledge the power of appearance (that's why we're sweating long hours at the gym), now some might not like it. But everyone should have the right to feel good about themselves and feel handsome or pretty without being accused of being a "slut". What's shocking is saying that women shouldn't be surprised to be assaulted because they dress like "sluts" (then who knows what "slut" means...) And that's the main reason why the movement was created.


Now, regarding the DSK case, I think we've been (and first of all the press) very quick in judging him because of his sexual history and then in judging her when the defense revealed that she was a prostitute. I don't understand why in the US people are judged over their reputation. Facts and evidence, that's all what should be considered. Prostitution is the oldest job in the world. Should a prostitute deserve sexual abuse? I don't think so. Prostitutes also suffer violent assaults. But what's not convincing in this case is how the accusation seems to be seeking for money... Money is an issue, because then others might try in getting some by false accusations. Anyhow, if there is no clear evidence, he should not be condemned. But if he is proved guilty and condemned then money should not be involved... But that's another issue... which has already been discussed in another thread I think.

The text you are quoting:

I agree, any abuse is wrong. It is not a women vs men thing. I strongly defend men who are abused and manipulated and we should always be very careful in judging without clear evidence.


Sexual attraction is clearly a power. Everyday life can be also much easier for a pretty woman or a good-looking guy. I am thinking about better jobs, etc. That's not unfair, that's just the way it is, we're equal in theory like we're free in theory but not totally...


I think we all acknowledge the power of appearance (that's why we're sweating long hours at the gym), now some might not like it. But everyone should have the right to feel good about themselves and feel handsome or pretty without being accused of being a "slut". What's shocking is saying that women shouldn't be surprised to be assaulted because they dress like "sluts" (then who knows what "slut" means...) And that's the main reason why the movement was created.


Now, regarding the DSK case, I think we've been (and first of all the press) very quick in judging him because of his sexual history and then in judging her when the defense revealed that she was a prostitute. I don't understand why in the US people are judged over their reputation. Facts and evidence, that's all what should be considered. Prostitution is the oldest job in the world. Should a prostitute deserve sexual abuse? I don't think so. Prostitutes also suffer violent assaults. But what's not convincing in this case is how the accusation seems to be seeking for money... Money is an issue, because then others might try in getting some by false accusations. Anyhow, if there is no clear evidence, he should not be condemned. But if he is proved guilty and condemned then money should not be involved... But that's another issue... which has already been discussed in another thread I think.


Izzie, Aug 23, 2011 @ 07:33
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Post 92

Reka, I see your point and think you may be on to something regarding cultural assimilation. I must also say, however, that the unceasing solicitation that I get when I walk through the center of Budapest or try to go into my hotel at night would be considered harassment by many.  Others would say "she's just doing her job."  A bit of a double standard there, but it is what it is.  Finally, Translator's example, Kahn, is probably not of the same ethnicity as the group you're referring to.  Perhaps different cultures simply use different techniques to harass?

Translator, is it possible that Kahn is innocent? Is there enough evidence to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt? The Bizweek article talks about his reputation and questionable habits, but the accusor has the same problem with her background, so we have a goose and gander issue.  How often are men falsely accused of rape or harassment?  Who keeps that statistic?  Again, not saying this excuses those who are guilty, and the women are likely victimized more often, but why do we look at only one side of the coin and not even acknowledge the other side, which is problematic as well? 

 


Aug 23, 11 06:47

@Robert C.  There's an open thread on Strauss-Khan under the Political/Social forums.  You might be interested in following-up the matter there.

The text you are quoting:

@Robert C.  There's an open thread on Strauss-Khan under the Political/Social forums.  You might be interested in following-up the matter there.


Nefertiti, Aug 23, 2011 @ 09:08
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Post 93

Izzie: I will provide a rebuttal to your assertions about the DSK under the political forum. Just to note, however, that there was very strong forensic evidence. Many, many legal commentators have drawn attention to the incompetence of the NY district attorney's office.


Robert C: The issues you raise about false claims and sexual harassment are very interesting and I will open a thread about your Dershowitz citation on the political thread.


There have been a number of key US Supreme Court decisions about these issues since 1993 (the era you mention) -- now nearly 20 years ago.  What this indicates is that there are many, many solid sexual harassment cases -- not simply claims -- that have made it through the various levels of the US legal system.  This in itself shows the pervasiveness of sexual harassment -- including same sex harassment -- in the US workplace.


Finally, I doubt highly that there will be a SlutWalk in Geneva. Expats don't have the time and most the Swiss Romande women's rights related protests are like this:


http://www.lesquotidiennes.com/poltitique/l%E2%80%99%C3%A9galit%C3%A9-hommes-femmes-cr%C3%A9e-des-remous-%C3%A0-gen%C3%A8ve.html


Note that in the photo, everyone has a nice red t-shirt and nice pink ballons are floating upwards into the sky....


 

The text you are quoting:

Izzie: I will provide a rebuttal to your assertions about the DSK under the political forum. Just to note, however, that there was very strong forensic evidence. Many, many legal commentators have drawn attention to the incompetence of the NY district attorney's office.


Robert C: The issues you raise about false claims and sexual harassment are very interesting and I will open a thread about your Dershowitz citation on the political thread.


There have been a number of key US Supreme Court decisions about these issues since 1993 (the era you mention) -- now nearly 20 years ago.  What this indicates is that there are many, many solid sexual harassment cases -- not simply claims -- that have made it through the various levels of the US legal system.  This in itself shows the pervasiveness of sexual harassment -- including same sex harassment -- in the US workplace.


Finally, I doubt highly that there will be a SlutWalk in Geneva. Expats don't have the time and most the Swiss Romande women's rights related protests are like this:


http://www.lesquotidiennes.com/poltitique/l%E2%80%99%C3%A9galit%C3%A9-hommes-femmes-cr%C3%A9e-des-remous-%C3%A0-gen%C3%A8ve.html


Note that in the photo, everyone has a nice red t-shirt and nice pink ballons are floating upwards into the sky....


 


Translator, Aug 23, 2011 @ 12:08
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Post 94

I agree with the Toronto Policeman.  In my view, the vociferous response to his comments are from those who seem more interested in maintaining their status as the aggrieved and vulnerable, rather than being proactive on the matter of their own personal safety.  And let's be clear: the officer did not say that women who dress slutty are deserving of rape, nor did he say that punishment of rapists should be contingent on how women dress.
Sexual assault of women, whether verbal or physical is the only crime where a discussion of agency is a complete nonstarter.  I guess being the victim is a much more powerful position.  Victims get to say what can or cannot be discussed.  Victims have the power of blame and guilt.  That's why victims don't like to be told how they can move away from being victimised.
It seems that in most other criminal situations, we can openly consider whether a person has done enough to protect him or herself.  For example, suppose I am walking down the streets of East Las Angeles.  It's two in the morning.   I am sporting a blue bandana with sagging jeans.  Odds are pretty good that I will be accosted.  Assuming he is caught, I am confident the assailant will be punished to the full extent of the law.  But the police would be right to ask, given that I live in a much safer part of the city, and given my knowledge of gang culture, why would I deliberately expose myself to almost certain danger?
Generally, I take greater comfort from  knowledge of how to keep myself safe from harm or theft, than from the mere assurance that my attacker will be punished.
But wait, it seems the point of the slut walk has broadened a bit.  It's also a response to men who feel it is ok to hoot and holler at the sight of scantily clad women.  I think that hooting and hollering is crass.  But women who dress slutty know what they are doing.  They are conveying a message, but are simply unwilling or unable to accept the response.  In which case there are two options: that they own the message, or dress more conservatively.  Either but the wining is fine with me.

The text you are quoting:

I agree with the Toronto Policeman.  In my view, the vociferous response to his comments are from those who seem more interested in maintaining their status as the aggrieved and vulnerable, rather than being proactive on the matter of their own personal safety.  And let's be clear: the officer did not say that women who dress slutty are deserving of rape, nor did he say that punishment of rapists should be contingent on how women dress.
Sexual assault of women, whether verbal or physical is the only crime where a discussion of agency is a complete nonstarter.  I guess being the victim is a much more powerful position.  Victims get to say what can or cannot be discussed.  Victims have the power of blame and guilt.  That's why victims don't like to be told how they can move away from being victimised.
It seems that in most other criminal situations, we can openly consider whether a person has done enough to protect him or herself.  For example, suppose I am walking down the streets of East Las Angeles.  It's two in the morning.   I am sporting a blue bandana with sagging jeans.  Odds are pretty good that I will be accosted.  Assuming he is caught, I am confident the assailant will be punished to the full extent of the law.  But the police would be right to ask, given that I live in a much safer part of the city, and given my knowledge of gang culture, why would I deliberately expose myself to almost certain danger?
Generally, I take greater comfort from  knowledge of how to keep myself safe from harm or theft, than from the mere assurance that my attacker will be punished.
But wait, it seems the point of the slut walk has broadened a bit.  It's also a response to men who feel it is ok to hoot and holler at the sight of scantily clad women.  I think that hooting and hollering is crass.  But women who dress slutty know what they are doing.  They are conveying a message, but are simply unwilling or unable to accept the response.  In which case there are two options: that they own the message, or dress more conservatively.  Either but the wining is fine with me.


Abdul Kamara, Aug 23, 2011 @ 12:56
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Post 95

http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/3925/myths.html


 Myth: Women "ask for it" by their dress or actions.


FACT Rapists look for victims they perceive as vulnerable, not women who dress in a particular way. Assuming that women provoke attacks by where they are or the way they dress is victim-blaming. No person, whatever their behaviour, "deserves" to be raped.


Myth: Gang rape is rare.


FACT: In 43% of all reported cases, more than one assailant was involved.


Myth: Sexual assaults are rare deviations and affect few people. After all, no one I know has been raped.


Fact: Sexual assaults are very common. Most likely, someone close to you has been profoundly affected by sexual assault. Not only are victims reluctant to discuss their assaults but many succeed in totally blocking the assault from conscious memory. However, the trauma remains and may come to the surface at another crisis or when the opportunity to discuss it with a sympathetic person arises. An estimated 155,000 women were raped each year between 1973 and 1987. (U.S. Department of Justice, 1991)


Myth: Women often make false reports of rape.


Fact: According to FBI crime statistics, during the 1990s around 8 percent. The “unfounded” rate, or percentage of complaints determined through investigation to be false, is higher for forcible rape than for any other Index crime. Eight percent of forcible rape complaints in 1996 were “unfounded,” while the average for all Index crimes was 2 percent.


Myth: Sexual assault is an impulsive, spontaneous act.


Fact: Most rapes are carefully planned by the rapist. A rapist will rape again and again, usually in the same area of town and in the same way.


Myth: Sexual assault usually occurs between strangers.


Fact: By some estimates, over 70% of rape victims know their attackers. The rapist may be a relative, friend, co-worker, date or other acquaintance.


Myth: Most rapes occur as a "spur of the moment" act in a dark alley by a stranger.


Fact: Rape often occurs in one's home - be it apartment, house or dormitory. Very often the rapist is known by the victim in some way and the rape is carefully planned.


 Myth: Only certain kinds of people get raped. It cannot happen to me.


FACTRapists act without considering their victim's physical appearance, dress, age, race, gender, or social status. Assailants seek out victims who they perceive to be vulnerable. The Orange County Rape Crisis Center has worked with victims from infancy to ninety-two years of age and from all racial and socioeconomic backgrounds.


Myth: Rape is an impulsive, uncontrollable act of sexual gratification. Most rape are spontaneous acts of passion where the assailant cannot control him/herself.


FACT Rape is a premeditated act of violence, not a spontaneous act of passion. 71% of rapes are planned in advance. 60% of convicted rapists were married or had regular sexual partners at the time of the assault. Men can control their sexual impulses. The vast majority of rapists are motivated by power, anger, and control, not sexual gratification.


 Myth: Rapists are strangers. If people avoid strangers, then they will not be raped.


FACT In 60% of the rapes reported to the Orange County Rape Crisis Center in 1991, the rapist was known to the victim. 7% of the assailants were family members of the victim. These statistics reflect only reported rapes. Assaults by assailants the victim knows are often not reported so the statistics do not reflect the actual numbers of acquaintance rapes.


Myth: Rapists are abnormal perverts; only sick or insane men are rapists.


FACT In a study of 1300 convicted offenders, few were diagnosed as mentally or emotionally ill. Most were well-adjusted but had a greater tendency to express their anger through violence and rage.


Myth: Most rapes occur on the street, by strangers, or by a few crazy men.


FACT Over 50% of reported rapes occur in the home. 80% of sexual assaults reported by college age women and adult women were perpetrated by close friends or family members. There is no common profile of a rapist. Rapes are committed by people from all economic levels, all races, all occupations. A rapist can be your doctor, your boss, your clergyman, your superintendent, your partner, your lover, your friend or your date.


 

The text you are quoting:

http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/3925/myths.html


 Myth: Women "ask for it" by their dress or actions.


FACT Rapists look for victims they perceive as vulnerable, not women who dress in a particular way. Assuming that women provoke attacks by where they are or the way they dress is victim-blaming. No person, whatever their behaviour, "deserves" to be raped.


Myth: Gang rape is rare.


FACT: In 43% of all reported cases, more than one assailant was involved.


Myth: Sexual assaults are rare deviations and affect few people. After all, no one I know has been raped.


Fact: Sexual assaults are very common. Most likely, someone close to you has been profoundly affected by sexual assault. Not only are victims reluctant to discuss their assaults but many succeed in totally blocking the assault from conscious memory. However, the trauma remains and may come to the surface at another crisis or when the opportunity to discuss it with a sympathetic person arises. An estimated 155,000 women were raped each year between 1973 and 1987. (U.S. Department of Justice, 1991)


Myth: Women often make false reports of rape.


Fact: According to FBI crime statistics, during the 1990s around 8 percent. The “unfounded” rate, or percentage of complaints determined through investigation to be false, is higher for forcible rape than for any other Index crime. Eight percent of forcible rape complaints in 1996 were “unfounded,” while the average for all Index crimes was 2 percent.


Myth: Sexual assault is an impulsive, spontaneous act.


Fact: Most rapes are carefully planned by the rapist. A rapist will rape again and again, usually in the same area of town and in the same way.


Myth: Sexual assault usually occurs between strangers.


Fact: By some estimates, over 70% of rape victims know their attackers. The rapist may be a relative, friend, co-worker, date or other acquaintance.


Myth: Most rapes occur as a "spur of the moment" act in a dark alley by a stranger.


Fact: Rape often occurs in one's home - be it apartment, house or dormitory. Very often the rapist is known by the victim in some way and the rape is carefully planned.


 Myth: Only certain kinds of people get raped. It cannot happen to me.


FACTRapists act without considering their victim's physical appearance, dress, age, race, gender, or social status. Assailants seek out victims who they perceive to be vulnerable. The Orange County Rape Crisis Center has worked with victims from infancy to ninety-two years of age and from all racial and socioeconomic backgrounds.


Myth: Rape is an impulsive, uncontrollable act of sexual gratification. Most rape are spontaneous acts of passion where the assailant cannot control him/herself.


FACT Rape is a premeditated act of violence, not a spontaneous act of passion. 71% of rapes are planned in advance. 60% of convicted rapists were married or had regular sexual partners at the time of the assault. Men can control their sexual impulses. The vast majority of rapists are motivated by power, anger, and control, not sexual gratification.


 Myth: Rapists are strangers. If people avoid strangers, then they will not be raped.


FACT In 60% of the rapes reported to the Orange County Rape Crisis Center in 1991, the rapist was known to the victim. 7% of the assailants were family members of the victim. These statistics reflect only reported rapes. Assaults by assailants the victim knows are often not reported so the statistics do not reflect the actual numbers of acquaintance rapes.


Myth: Rapists are abnormal perverts; only sick or insane men are rapists.


FACT In a study of 1300 convicted offenders, few were diagnosed as mentally or emotionally ill. Most were well-adjusted but had a greater tendency to express their anger through violence and rage.


Myth: Most rapes occur on the street, by strangers, or by a few crazy men.


FACT Over 50% of reported rapes occur in the home. 80% of sexual assaults reported by college age women and adult women were perpetrated by close friends or family members. There is no common profile of a rapist. Rapes are committed by people from all economic levels, all races, all occupations. A rapist can be your doctor, your boss, your clergyman, your superintendent, your partner, your lover, your friend or your date.


 


Translator, Aug 23, 2011 @ 13:33
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Post 96

http://www.newstatesman.com/life-and-society/2008/03/rape-myths-women-stump-sexual


Nearly same rate of false rape claims in UK according to the above article -- only 3%


http://www.newstatesman.com/life-and-society/2008/03/rape-myths-women-stump-sexual

The text you are quoting:

http://www.newstatesman.com/life-and-society/2008/03/rape-myths-women-stump-sexual


Nearly same rate of false rape claims in UK according to the above article -- only 3%


http://www.newstatesman.com/life-and-society/2008/03/rape-myths-women-stump-sexual


Translator, Aug 23, 2011 @ 13:57
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Post 97

http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/3925/myths.html

 Myth: Women "ask for it" by their dress or actions.

FACT Rapists look for victims they perceive as vulnerable, not women who dress in a particular way. Assuming that women provoke attacks by where they are or the way they dress is victim-blaming. No person, whatever their behaviour, "deserves" to be raped.

Myth: Gang rape is rare.

FACT: In 43% of all reported cases, more than one assailant was involved.

Myth: Sexual assaults are rare deviations and affect few people. After all, no one I know has been raped.

Fact: Sexual assaults are very common. Most likely, someone close to you has been profoundly affected by sexual assault. Not only are victims reluctant to discuss their assaults but many succeed in totally blocking the assault from conscious memory. However, the trauma remains and may come to the surface at another crisis or when the opportunity to discuss it with a sympathetic person arises. An estimated 155,000 women were raped each year between 1973 and 1987. (U.S. Department of Justice, 1991)

Myth: Women often make false reports of rape.

Fact: According to FBI crime statistics, during the 1990s around 8 percent. The “unfounded” rate, or percentage of complaints determined through investigation to be false, is higher for forcible rape than for any other Index crime. Eight percent of forcible rape complaints in 1996 were “unfounded,” while the average for all Index crimes was 2 percent.

Myth: Sexual assault is an impulsive, spontaneous act.

Fact: Most rapes are carefully planned by the rapist. A rapist will rape again and again, usually in the same area of town and in the same way.

Myth: Sexual assault usually occurs between strangers.

Fact: By some estimates, over 70% of rape victims know their attackers. The rapist may be a relative, friend, co-worker, date or other acquaintance.

Myth: Most rapes occur as a "spur of the moment" act in a dark alley by a stranger.

Fact: Rape often occurs in one's home - be it apartment, house or dormitory. Very often the rapist is known by the victim in some way and the rape is carefully planned.

 Myth: Only certain kinds of people get raped. It cannot happen to me.

FACTRapists act without considering their victim's physical appearance, dress, age, race, gender, or social status. Assailants seek out victims who they perceive to be vulnerable. The Orange County Rape Crisis Center has worked with victims from infancy to ninety-two years of age and from all racial and socioeconomic backgrounds.

Myth: Rape is an impulsive, uncontrollable act of sexual gratification. Most rape are spontaneous acts of passion where the assailant cannot control him/herself.

FACT Rape is a premeditated act of violence, not a spontaneous act of passion. 71% of rapes are planned in advance. 60% of convicted rapists were married or had regular sexual partners at the time of the assault. Men can control their sexual impulses. The vast majority of rapists are motivated by power, anger, and control, not sexual gratification.

 Myth: Rapists are strangers. If people avoid strangers, then they will not be raped.

FACT In 60% of the rapes reported to the Orange County Rape Crisis Center in 1991, the rapist was known to the victim. 7% of the assailants were family members of the victim. These statistics reflect only reported rapes. Assaults by assailants the victim knows are often not reported so the statistics do not reflect the actual numbers of acquaintance rapes.

Myth: Rapists are abnormal perverts; only sick or insane men are rapists.

FACT In a study of 1300 convicted offenders, few were diagnosed as mentally or emotionally ill. Most were well-adjusted but had a greater tendency to express their anger through violence and rage.

Myth: Most rapes occur on the street, by strangers, or by a few crazy men.

FACT Over 50% of reported rapes occur in the home. 80% of sexual assaults reported by college age women and adult women were perpetrated by close friends or family members. There is no common profile of a rapist. Rapes are committed by people from all economic levels, all races, all occupations. A rapist can be your doctor, your boss, your clergyman, your superintendent, your partner, your lover, your friend or your date.

 


Aug 23, 11 13:33

Thank you Valerie. Rape is a violent crime, I think all sane men and women agree on this. Those who don't should probably be behind bars. 


I was also rather intrigued by some of Robert C's remarks regarding our biological impulses...yes we are genetically predisposed to certain behaviours but because we have the power to change our behaviour and use our minds to act a certain way I think the whole 'biology is destiny' argument is severely debunked.


This article says it succinctly:  http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/women-who-stray/201009/biology-is-not-destiny

The text you are quoting:

Thank you Valerie. Rape is a violent crime, I think all sane men and women agree on this. Those who don't should probably be behind bars. 


I was also rather intrigued by some of Robert C's remarks regarding our biological impulses...yes we are genetically predisposed to certain behaviours but because we have the power to change our behaviour and use our minds to act a certain way I think the whole 'biology is destiny' argument is severely debunked.


This article says it succinctly:  http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/women-who-stray/201009/biology-is-not-destiny


amna a, Aug 23, 2011 @ 13:52
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Post 98

It is also very interesting to note that when one poster made repeatedly abusive and insulting comments about women, only one male poster told him where to get off.

The text you are quoting:

It is also very interesting to note that when one poster made repeatedly abusive and insulting comments about women, only one male poster told him where to get off.


Translator, Aug 23, 2011 @ 13:58
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 99

I agree with the Toronto Policeman.  In my view, the vociferous response to his comments are from those who seem more interested in maintaining their status as the aggrieved and vulnerable, rather than being proactive on the matter of their own personal safety.  And let's be clear: the officer did not say that women who dress slutty are deserving of rape, nor did he say that punishment of rapists should be contingent on how women dress.
Sexual assault of women, whether verbal or physical is the only crime where a discussion of agency is a complete nonstarter.  I guess being the victim is a much more powerful position.  Victims get to say what can or cannot be discussed.  Victims have the power of blame and guilt.  That's why victims don't like to be told how they can move away from being victimised.
It seems that in most other criminal situations, we can openly consider whether a person has done enough to protect him or herself.  For example, suppose I am walking down the streets of East Las Angeles.  It's two in the morning.   I am sporting a blue bandana with sagging jeans.  Odds are pretty good that I will be accosted.  Assuming he is caught, I am confident the assailant will be punished to the full extent of the law.  But the police would be right to ask, given that I live in a much safer part of the city, and given my knowledge of gang culture, why would I deliberately expose myself to almost certain danger?
Generally, I take greater comfort from  knowledge of how to keep myself safe from harm or theft, than from the mere assurance that my attacker will be punished.
But wait, it seems the point of the slut walk has broadened a bit.  It's also a response to men who feel it is ok to hoot and holler at the sight of scantily clad women.  I think that hooting and hollering is crass.  But women who dress slutty know what they are doing.  They are conveying a message, but are simply unwilling or unable to accept the response.  In which case there are two options: that they own the message, or dress more conservatively.  Either but the wining is fine with me.


Aug 23, 11 12:56

But women who dress sultty know what they are doing. They are conveying a mesage, but are simply unwilling or unable to accept the reponse."


That's why in some places women "own the message" and carry a firearm.

The text you are quoting:

But women who dress sultty know what they are doing. They are conveying a mesage, but are simply unwilling or unable to accept the reponse."


That's why in some places women "own the message" and carry a firearm.


Translator, Aug 23, 2011 @ 14:04
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 100

oops, meant "slutty" obviously..

The text you are quoting:

oops, meant "slutty" obviously..


Translator, Aug 23, 2011 @ 14:13
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 101

I agree with the Toronto Policeman.  In my view, the vociferous response to his comments are from those who seem more interested in maintaining their status as the aggrieved and vulnerable, rather than being proactive on the matter of their own personal safety.  And let's be clear: the officer did not say that women who dress slutty are deserving of rape, nor did he say that punishment of rapists should be contingent on how women dress.
Sexual assault of women, whether verbal or physical is the only crime where a discussion of agency is a complete nonstarter.  I guess being the victim is a much more powerful position.  Victims get to say what can or cannot be discussed.  Victims have the power of blame and guilt.  That's why victims don't like to be told how they can move away from being victimised.
It seems that in most other criminal situations, we can openly consider whether a person has done enough to protect him or herself.  For example, suppose I am walking down the streets of East Las Angeles.  It's two in the morning.   I am sporting a blue bandana with sagging jeans.  Odds are pretty good that I will be accosted.  Assuming he is caught, I am confident the assailant will be punished to the full extent of the law.  But the police would be right to ask, given that I live in a much safer part of the city, and given my knowledge of gang culture, why would I deliberately expose myself to almost certain danger?
Generally, I take greater comfort from  knowledge of how to keep myself safe from harm or theft, than from the mere assurance that my attacker will be punished.
But wait, it seems the point of the slut walk has broadened a bit.  It's also a response to men who feel it is ok to hoot and holler at the sight of scantily clad women.  I think that hooting and hollering is crass.  But women who dress slutty know what they are doing.  They are conveying a message, but are simply unwilling or unable to accept the response.  In which case there are two options: that they own the message, or dress more conservatively.  Either but the wining is fine with me.


Aug 23, 11 12:56

I agree that we should all use precautions regarding our safety. And I think that extends to the way we dress. But what does one say to those sleazoids who continue to catcall and stare and generally misbehave with women who are dressed appropriately?


Men stare at women on the streets of Karachi (where I'm from) and I mean STARE. Its rude, its uncomfortable and totally unwarrented. And we dress really modestly in that country on the streets...not an exposed leg in sight, not a cleavage unbared. Outraged women often holler at men : "is this how you look at your mother/sister/daughter? Shame on you!" And yet it continues.


I just finished reading 'Why Men Don't Have a Clue & Women Always Need More Shoes"...hilarious reading but also very insightful. The chapter on what women find sexually attractive in men is about 17 pages long and the chapter on what men find sexually appealing in women is 32 pages long....


From my own personal experience I would have to say that men are much more visual than women (on the whole)...it doesn't take much more than a picture of a sexually alluring women to get them going. Women, on the other hand...

The text you are quoting:

I agree that we should all use precautions regarding our safety. And I think that extends to the way we dress. But what does one say to those sleazoids who continue to catcall and stare and generally misbehave with women who are dressed appropriately?


Men stare at women on the streets of Karachi (where I'm from) and I mean STARE. Its rude, its uncomfortable and totally unwarrented. And we dress really modestly in that country on the streets...not an exposed leg in sight, not a cleavage unbared. Outraged women often holler at men : "is this how you look at your mother/sister/daughter? Shame on you!" And yet it continues.


I just finished reading 'Why Men Don't Have a Clue & Women Always Need More Shoes"...hilarious reading but also very insightful. The chapter on what women find sexually attractive in men is about 17 pages long and the chapter on what men find sexually appealing in women is 32 pages long....


From my own personal experience I would have to say that men are much more visual than women (on the whole)...it doesn't take much more than a picture of a sexually alluring women to get them going. Women, on the other hand...


amna a, Aug 23, 2011 @ 14:05
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 102

I agree that we should all use precautions regarding our safety. And I think that extends to the way we dress. But what does one say to those sleazoids who continue to catcall and stare and generally misbehave with women who are dressed appropriately?

Men stare at women on the streets of Karachi (where I'm from) and I mean STARE. Its rude, its uncomfortable and totally unwarrented. And we dress really modestly in that country on the streets...not an exposed leg in sight, not a cleavage unbared. Outraged women often holler at men : "is this how you look at your mother/sister/daughter? Shame on you!" And yet it continues.

I just finished reading 'Why Men Don't Have a Clue & Women Always Need More Shoes"...hilarious reading but also very insightful. The chapter on what women find sexually attractive in men is about 17 pages long and the chapter on what men find sexually appealing in women is 32 pages long....

From my own personal experience I would have to say that men are much more visual than women (on the whole)...it doesn't take much more than a picture of a sexually alluring women to get them going. Women, on the other hand...


Aug 23, 11 14:05

.....on the other hand, this visual works for me.....



The text you are quoting:

.....on the other hand, this visual works for me.....


Carolyn C, Aug 23, 2011 @ 14:27
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 103

Compare the US FBI statistics of 2% false rape claims with these rape prosecution statistics:


http://www.pbs.org/kued/nosafeplace/articles/rapefeat.html


 Most rapists are never caught, and conviction rates for those apprehended are notoriously low.


According to Department of Justice statistics, 48 percent of accused rapists were released before trial.


Of those tried, only 54 percent were sentenced to prison.


Even more troubling is that the average sex offender may commit hundreds of crimes in his lifetime, which means that the vast majority of rapes go undetected and unpunished.


 

The text you are quoting:

Compare the US FBI statistics of 2% false rape claims with these rape prosecution statistics:


http://www.pbs.org/kued/nosafeplace/articles/rapefeat.html


 Most rapists are never caught, and conviction rates for those apprehended are notoriously low.


According to Department of Justice statistics, 48 percent of accused rapists were released before trial.


Of those tried, only 54 percent were sentenced to prison.


Even more troubling is that the average sex offender may commit hundreds of crimes in his lifetime, which means that the vast majority of rapes go undetected and unpunished.


 


Translator, Aug 23, 2011 @ 14:14
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 104

.....on the other hand, this visual works for me.....


Aug 23, 11 14:27

ahahahah!!! YES! Kiss

The text you are quoting:

ahahahah!!! YES! Kiss


amna a, Aug 23, 2011 @ 14:29
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 105

Compare the US FBI statistics of 2% false rape claims with these rape prosecution statistics:

http://www.pbs.org/kued/nosafeplace/articles/rapefeat.html

 Most rapists are never caught, and conviction rates for those apprehended are notoriously low.

According to Department of Justice statistics, 48 percent of accused rapists were released before trial.

Of those tried, only 54 percent were sentenced to prison.

Even more troubling is that the average sex offender may commit hundreds of crimes in his lifetime, which means that the vast majority of rapes go undetected and unpunished.

 


Aug 23, 11 14:14

Valerie, that is really depressing...Frown

The text you are quoting:

Valerie, that is really depressing...Frown


amna a, Aug 23, 2011 @ 14:32
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 106
The text you are quoting:

Translator, Aug 23, 2011 @ 14:30
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 107

http://www.newstatesman.com/life-and-society/2008/03/rape-myths-women-stump-sexual

Nearly same rate of false rape claims in UK according to the above article -- only 3%

http://www.newstatesman.com/life-and-society/2008/03/rape-myths-women-stump-sexual


Aug 23, 11 13:57

Translator: Google these numbers.  Check the stats.  Check the sources.  Check the sample sizes.  The 2% false claim figure is 100% false.  I'll dig up the dirt on that stat later tonight.

The text you are quoting:

Translator: Google these numbers.  Check the stats.  Check the sources.  Check the sample sizes.  The 2% false claim figure is 100% false.  I'll dig up the dirt on that stat later tonight.


richardm, Aug 23, 2011 @ 14:40
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 108

Translator: Google these numbers.  Check the stats.  Check the sources.  Check the sample sizes.  The 2% false claim figure is 100% false.  I'll dig up the dirt on that stat later tonight.


Aug 23, 11 14:40

I will look up in the FBI database about the 2%...

The text you are quoting:

I will look up in the FBI database about the 2%...


Translator, Aug 23, 2011 @ 14:50
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 109

.....on the other hand, this visual works for me.....


Aug 23, 11 14:27

Oh my God! That is soooo sexist! I mean, clearly when you look like me, you're going to have women gawping at you all day. However, I just wish you'd take the time to know me, talk to me and realise that the 'eye-candy' has feelings! Laughing

The text you are quoting:

Oh my God! That is soooo sexist! I mean, clearly when you look like me, you're going to have women gawping at you all day. However, I just wish you'd take the time to know me, talk to me and realise that the 'eye-candy' has feelings! Laughing


Rich, Aug 23, 2011 @ 14:48
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 110

Translator: Google these numbers.  Check the stats.  Check the sources.  Check the sample sizes.  The 2% false claim figure is 100% false.  I'll dig up the dirt on that stat later tonight.


Aug 23, 11 14:40

And remember, it can't be from your favorite blogTongue out

The text you are quoting:

And remember, it can't be from your favorite blogTongue out


Translator, Aug 23, 2011 @ 14:52
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 111

Valerie, that is really depressing...Frown


Aug 23, 11 14:32

I believe the less wordy version is "All men are total bastards!"

The text you are quoting:

I believe the less wordy version is "All men are total bastards!"


Rich, Aug 23, 2011 @ 14:54
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 112

Oh my God! That is soooo sexist! I mean, clearly when you look like me, you're going to have women gawping at you all day. However, I just wish you'd take the time to know me, talk to me and realise that the 'eye-candy' has feelings! Laughing


Aug 23, 11 14:48

LOL!! 


But honestly, Brad was asking for it - I mean the slutty way that he has almost bared one shoulder, provocatively blowing his shirt in the wind, the low cut jeans showing off his six pack, that come to bed twinkle in his eye.....


Does he get cat calls, attacked, raped, victmized?


No, he gets Gwynnie, followed by Jen, followed by Angelina.


Nice work if you can get it Cool

The text you are quoting:

LOL!! 


But honestly, Brad was asking for it - I mean the slutty way that he has almost bared one shoulder, provocatively blowing his shirt in the wind, the low cut jeans showing off his six pack, that come to bed twinkle in his eye.....


Does he get cat calls, attacked, raped, victmized?


No, he gets Gwynnie, followed by Jen, followed by Angelina.


Nice work if you can get it Cool


Carolyn C, Aug 23, 2011 @ 14:56
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 113

LOL!! 

But honestly, Brad was asking for it - I mean the slutty way that he has almost bared one shoulder, provocatively blowing his shirt in the wind, the low cut jeans showing off his six pack, that come to bed twinkle in his eye.....

Does he get cat calls, attacked, raped, victmized?

No, he gets Gwynnie, followed by Jen, followed by Angelina.

Nice work if you can get it Cool


Aug 23, 11 14:56

Yep! It's a tough old life for the likes of Brad and I!!! Cool

The text you are quoting:

Yep! It's a tough old life for the likes of Brad and I!!! Cool


Rich, Aug 23, 2011 @ 15:05
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 114

LOL!! 

But honestly, Brad was asking for it - I mean the slutty way that he has almost bared one shoulder, provocatively blowing his shirt in the wind, the low cut jeans showing off his six pack, that come to bed twinkle in his eye.....

Does he get cat calls, attacked, raped, victmized?

No, he gets Gwynnie, followed by Jen, followed by Angelina.

Nice work if you can get it Cool


Aug 23, 11 14:56

thats it, i'm going to the next glocals party with my black shirt undone then. 

The text you are quoting:

thats it, i'm going to the next glocals party with my black shirt undone then. 


G___, Aug 23, 2011 @ 15:05
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 115

thats it, i'm going to the next glocals party with my black shirt undone then. 


Aug 23, 11 15:05

I'd do the same but I don't want to see 50 women explode with excitement.


(My God! I'm so full of shit I should change my name to colon!)

The text you are quoting:

I'd do the same but I don't want to see 50 women explode with excitement.


(My God! I'm so full of shit I should change my name to colon!)


Rich, Aug 23, 2011 @ 15:08
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 116

I agree with the Toronto Policeman.  In my view, the vociferous response to his comments are from those who seem more interested in maintaining their status as the aggrieved and vulnerable, rather than being proactive on the matter of their own personal safety.  And let's be clear: the officer did not say that women who dress slutty are deserving of rape, nor did he say that punishment of rapists should be contingent on how women dress.
Sexual assault of women, whether verbal or physical is the only crime where a discussion of agency is a complete nonstarter.  I guess being the victim is a much more powerful position.  Victims get to say what can or cannot be discussed.  Victims have the power of blame and guilt.  That's why victims don't like to be told how they can move away from being victimised.
It seems that in most other criminal situations, we can openly consider whether a person has done enough to protect him or herself.  For example, suppose I am walking down the streets of East Las Angeles.  It's two in the morning.   I am sporting a blue bandana with sagging jeans.  Odds are pretty good that I will be accosted.  Assuming he is caught, I am confident the assailant will be punished to the full extent of the law.  But the police would be right to ask, given that I live in a much safer part of the city, and given my knowledge of gang culture, why would I deliberately expose myself to almost certain danger?
Generally, I take greater comfort from  knowledge of how to keep myself safe from harm or theft, than from the mere assurance that my attacker will be punished.
But wait, it seems the point of the slut walk has broadened a bit.  It's also a response to men who feel it is ok to hoot and holler at the sight of scantily clad women.  I think that hooting and hollering is crass.  But women who dress slutty know what they are doing.  They are conveying a message, but are simply unwilling or unable to accept the response.  In which case there are two options: that they own the message, or dress more conservatively.  Either but the wining is fine with me.


Aug 23, 11 12:56
Although I'd strongly recommend caution to my daughter, I am highly respectful and grateful to those who took risks throughout History to change things at their own expense...
The text you are quoting:
Although I'd strongly recommend caution to my daughter, I am highly respectful and grateful to those who took risks throughout History to change things at their own expense...
Izzie, Aug 23, 2011 @ 14:56
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 117

I believe the less wordy version is "All men are total bastards!"


Aug 23, 11 14:54
Come on, you've said that! This is not a women vs men thing!
The text you are quoting:
Come on, you've said that! This is not a women vs men thing!
Izzie, Aug 23, 2011 @ 15:10
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 118

Hi Anna,
Thanks for the post.
It is without a doubt that SOME (not ALL) men lack the upbringing to respect women.  Yet still, mother's as well as fathers raise children.  So if men are to be branded as pigs, what does that say about some of the social habits that women confer upon their boys?
I digress.
I completely sympathise for the woman who dresses tastefully and yet is subject to unrelenting and unwanted verbal sexual overtures.  The response to them is to march as you are, not by claiming the identity of a slut.  March for the respect of all women, and not against a police officer who said something that (although hard to hear), had within it a basic truth.
I am weary of stereotypes about men and women.  They simply never add up.  Men are supposed to be more visual.  Well I am blind, so from my perspective, women are more visual.  I will often hear the following whilst among two or more of my female friends: "Oh he is so hot.  I would sleep with him."  Or, "Nah, he is too short."  And the favourite, "There aren't enough cute guys working here."
As I see it, my male friends or no more or less guilty of their visual fixations. 
@Translator, some women carry guns, some pepper spray.  Others take selfdefense courses.  Nothing wrong with telling women to assume some responsibility for their own protection.  If you call that "victim blaming", so be it.

The text you are quoting:

Hi Anna,
Thanks for the post.
It is without a doubt that SOME (not ALL) men lack the upbringing to respect women.  Yet still, mother's as well as fathers raise children.  So if men are to be branded as pigs, what does that say about some of the social habits that women confer upon their boys?
I digress.
I completely sympathise for the woman who dresses tastefully and yet is subject to unrelenting and unwanted verbal sexual overtures.  The response to them is to march as you are, not by claiming the identity of a slut.  March for the respect of all women, and not against a police officer who said something that (although hard to hear), had within it a basic truth.
I am weary of stereotypes about men and women.  They simply never add up.  Men are supposed to be more visual.  Well I am blind, so from my perspective, women are more visual.  I will often hear the following whilst among two or more of my female friends: "Oh he is so hot.  I would sleep with him."  Or, "Nah, he is too short."  And the favourite, "There aren't enough cute guys working here."
As I see it, my male friends or no more or less guilty of their visual fixations. 
@Translator, some women carry guns, some pepper spray.  Others take selfdefense courses.  Nothing wrong with telling women to assume some responsibility for their own protection.  If you call that "victim blaming", so be it.


Abdul Kamara, Aug 23, 2011 @ 15:07
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 119

Lads .....Gwynnie , Jen and Angelina are all individually crap in bed...trust me....


collectively, however, that might be a different story...


 


 


 

The text you are quoting:

Lads .....Gwynnie , Jen and Angelina are all individually crap in bed...trust me....


collectively, however, that might be a different story...


 


 


 


Charlie, Aug 23, 2011 @ 15:14
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 120

Lads .....Gwynnie , Jen and Angelina are all individually crap in bed...trust me....

collectively, however, that might be a different story...

 

 

 


Aug 23, 11 15:14

Welcome Charlie - I knew if I lowered the bar enough, you'd turn up!Wink

The text you are quoting:

Welcome Charlie - I knew if I lowered the bar enough, you'd turn up!Wink


Carolyn C, Aug 23, 2011 @ 15:19
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 121
Come on, you've said that! This is not a women vs men thing!
Aug 23, 11 15:10

Oh come on! Read last night's posts and it was like an episode of Loose Women! If it had been a boxing match Robert C's trainer would've thrown the towel in.

The text you are quoting:

Oh come on! Read last night's posts and it was like an episode of Loose Women! If it had been a boxing match Robert C's trainer would've thrown the towel in.


Rich, Aug 23, 2011 @ 15:21
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 122

Welcome Charlie - I knew if I lowered the bar enough, you'd turn up!Wink


Aug 23, 11 15:19

I thought that getting all those three into the sack at the same time was actually "raising the bar".... I'd be impressed, and'd give my full respect to anyone who could do that...

The text you are quoting:

I thought that getting all those three into the sack at the same time was actually "raising the bar".... I'd be impressed, and'd give my full respect to anyone who could do that...


Charlie, Aug 23, 2011 @ 15:39
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 123

A real woman always keeps her house clean and organized, the laundry basket is always empty. She's always well dressed, hair done. She never swears, behaves gracefully in all situations and all circumstances. She has more than enough patience to take care of her family, always has a smile on her lips, and a kind word for everyone.


Girls if this is not you then you might now realize that you might be a man.



The text you are quoting:

A real woman always keeps her house clean and organized, the laundry basket is always empty. She's always well dressed, hair done. She never swears, behaves gracefully in all situations and all circumstances. She has more than enough patience to take care of her family, always has a smile on her lips, and a kind word for everyone.


Girls if this is not you then you might now realize that you might be a man.


Charlie, Aug 23, 2011 @ 15:46
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 124

I thought that getting all those three into the sack at the same time was actually "raising the bar".... I'd be impressed, and'd give my full respect to anyone who could do that...


Aug 23, 11 15:39

i'll need to add them to my glocals friends network first, then will come in with the open shirt routine. Will post my comments in members activities reviews section the next day Tongue out

The text you are quoting:

i'll need to add them to my glocals friends network first, then will come in with the open shirt routine. Will post my comments in members activities reviews section the next day Tongue out


G___, Aug 23, 2011 @ 15:48
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 125

i'll need to add them to my glocals friends network first, then will come in with the open shirt routine. Will post my comments in members activities reviews section the next day Tongue out


Aug 23, 11 15:48

Jesus G! That is so sexist! Even though those three are in the public eye, that doesn' mean they don't have feeli--- I'm sorry! I can't keep this going! Make sure you take loads of pictures. Laughing


P.S. Don't tell them to bring a bottle of Pommery Blue label...

The text you are quoting:

Jesus G! That is so sexist! Even though those three are in the public eye, that doesn' mean they don't have feeli--- I'm sorry! I can't keep this going! Make sure you take loads of pictures. Laughing


P.S. Don't tell them to bring a bottle of Pommery Blue label...


Rich, Aug 23, 2011 @ 15:58
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 126

Hi Anna,
Thanks for the post.
It is without a doubt that SOME (not ALL) men lack the upbringing to respect women.  Yet still, mother's as well as fathers raise children.  So if men are to be branded as pigs, what does that say about some of the social habits that women confer upon their boys?
I digress.
I completely sympathise for the woman who dresses tastefully and yet is subject to unrelenting and unwanted verbal sexual overtures.  The response to them is to march as you are, not by claiming the identity of a slut.  March for the respect of all women, and not against a police officer who said something that (although hard to hear), had within it a basic truth.
I am weary of stereotypes about men and women.  They simply never add up.  Men are supposed to be more visual.  Well I am blind, so from my perspective, women are more visual.  I will often hear the following whilst among two or more of my female friends: "Oh he is so hot.  I would sleep with him."  Or, "Nah, he is too short."  And the favourite, "There aren't enough cute guys working here."
As I see it, my male friends or no more or less guilty of their visual fixations. 
@Translator, some women carry guns, some pepper spray.  Others take selfdefense courses.  Nothing wrong with telling women to assume some responsibility for their own protection.  If you call that "victim blaming", so be it.


Aug 23, 11 15:07

Would jeans fall into the category of dressing conservatively or tastefully?  There was an Italian judge a few years ago who ruled in favor of the (alleged) rapist on the basis that women wearing jeans are physically impossible to rape.


 I happen to know a lot of decent men who don’t believe that the way a woman is dressed gives them permission to do what they please with her. I also know of a lot of men who think they have that permission, regardless of the situation or the dress.

........and I wish I knew Brad Pitt!  it's your fault Caroline, you got me off track!!!

The text you are quoting:

Would jeans fall into the category of dressing conservatively or tastefully?  There was an Italian judge a few years ago who ruled in favor of the (alleged) rapist on the basis that women wearing jeans are physically impossible to rape.


 I happen to know a lot of decent men who don’t believe that the way a woman is dressed gives them permission to do what they please with her. I also know of a lot of men who think they have that permission, regardless of the situation or the dress.

........and I wish I knew Brad Pitt!  it's your fault Caroline, you got me off track!!!


Nefertiti, Aug 23, 2011 @ 16:01
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Post 127

Hi Anna,
Thanks for the post.
It is without a doubt that SOME (not ALL) men lack the upbringing to respect women.  Yet still, mother's as well as fathers raise children.  So if men are to be branded as pigs, what does that say about some of the social habits that women confer upon their boys?
I digress.
I completely sympathise for the woman who dresses tastefully and yet is subject to unrelenting and unwanted verbal sexual overtures.  The response to them is to march as you are, not by claiming the identity of a slut.  March for the respect of all women, and not against a police officer who said something that (although hard to hear), had within it a basic truth.
I am weary of stereotypes about men and women.  They simply never add up.  Men are supposed to be more visual.  Well I am blind, so from my perspective, women are more visual.  I will often hear the following whilst among two or more of my female friends: "Oh he is so hot.  I would sleep with him."  Or, "Nah, he is too short."  And the favourite, "There aren't enough cute guys working here."
As I see it, my male friends or no more or less guilty of their visual fixations. 
@Translator, some women carry guns, some pepper spray.  Others take selfdefense courses.  Nothing wrong with telling women to assume some responsibility for their own protection.  If you call that "victim blaming", so be it.


Aug 23, 11 15:07

You claim the policeman said something which has a basic truth in it. That is your truth which is essentially devoid of fact because most rape studies show that what the woman was wearing had little to no impact on why she was raped.


What this does reveal is your judgements about how you believe women should dress. Absolutely nowhere in your rant is there any statement about teaching men not to abuse women.  Very, very interesting point of view.


I advocate self-defense for all women, especially given the fact that so many men believe that women should not dress as "sluts."


Here is a perfect example of how an 11 year-old girl was blamed for being a victim of a gang-rape.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/16/texas-gang-rape-aftermath-florida-law_n_836841.html


"Last week, the world learned about the town of Cleveland, Texas, where 18 teenage boys gang-raped an 11-year-old girl and, according to The New York Times, caused the community to rend their garments about how the crime would ruin the lives ...of the rapists. There were many lessons to learn. Lessons like: maybe reporters who cover stories like this shouldn't exclusively focus on the adversity faced by rapists. Or: Maybe everyone in Cleveland, Texas is actually some kind of awful monster?


Here's the lesson that Florida state Rep. Kathleen Passidomo took away from the awful event: the state should step in and regulate the wardrobe of 11-year-old girls! Seriously! This is a thing that is happening in Florida, and in our lives, somehow."


 


 

The text you are quoting:

You claim the policeman said something which has a basic truth in it. That is your truth which is essentially devoid of fact because most rape studies show that what the woman was wearing had little to no impact on why she was raped.


What this does reveal is your judgements about how you believe women should dress. Absolutely nowhere in your rant is there any statement about teaching men not to abuse women.  Very, very interesting point of view.


I advocate self-defense for all women, especially given the fact that so many men believe that women should not dress as "sluts."


Here is a perfect example of how an 11 year-old girl was blamed for being a victim of a gang-rape.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/16/texas-gang-rape-aftermath-florida-law_n_836841.html


"Last week, the world learned about the town of Cleveland, Texas, where 18 teenage boys gang-raped an 11-year-old girl and, according to The New York Times, caused the community to rend their garments about how the crime would ruin the lives ...of the rapists. There were many lessons to learn. Lessons like: maybe reporters who cover stories like this shouldn't exclusively focus on the adversity faced by rapists. Or: Maybe everyone in Cleveland, Texas is actually some kind of awful monster?


Here's the lesson that Florida state Rep. Kathleen Passidomo took away from the awful event: the state should step in and regulate the wardrobe of 11-year-old girls! Seriously! This is a thing that is happening in Florida, and in our lives, somehow."


 


 


Translator, Aug 23, 2011 @ 16:21
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Post 128

Translator: Google these numbers.  Check the stats.  Check the sources.  Check the sample sizes.  The 2% false claim figure is 100% false.  I'll dig up the dirt on that stat later tonight.


Aug 23, 11 14:40

Ok, Richard, here you are:


According to wikipedia, most rigorous study says 8% not 2%.


a) The largest and most rigorous study was commissioned by the British Home Office and based on 2,643 sexual assault cases (Kelly, Lovett, and Regan, 2005). Of these, 8% were classified by the police department as false reports. Yet the researchers noted that some of these classifications were based simply on the personal judgments of the police investigators and were made in violation of official criteria for establishing a false allegation.


Closer analysis of this category applying the Home Office counting rules for establishing a false allegation and excluding cases where the application of the cases where confirmation of the designation was uncertain reduced the percentage of false reports to 3%.


The researchers concluded that "one cannot take all police designations at face value" and that "[t]here is an over-estimation of the scale of false allegations by both police officers and prosecutors."


b) "The interviews with police officers and complainants’ responses show that despite the focus on victim care, a culture of suspicion remains within the police, even amongst some of those who are specialists in rape investigations.


There is also a tendency to conflate false allegations with retractions and withdrawals, as if in all such cases no sexual assault occurred.


This reproduces an investigative culture in which elements that might permit a designation of a false complaint are emphasised (later sections reveal how this also feeds into withdrawals and designation of ‘insufficient evidence’), at the expense of a careful investigation, in which the evidence collected is evaluated.[11][12]"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics

The text you are quoting:

Ok, Richard, here you are:


According to wikipedia, most rigorous study says 8% not 2%.


a) The largest and most rigorous study was commissioned by the British Home Office and based on 2,643 sexual assault cases (Kelly, Lovett, and Regan, 2005). Of these, 8% were classified by the police department as false reports. Yet the researchers noted that some of these classifications were based simply on the personal judgments of the police investigators and were made in violation of official criteria for establishing a false allegation.


Closer analysis of this category applying the Home Office counting rules for establishing a false allegation and excluding cases where the application of the cases where confirmation of the designation was uncertain reduced the percentage of false reports to 3%.


The researchers concluded that "one cannot take all police designations at face value" and that "[t]here is an over-estimation of the scale of false allegations by both police officers and prosecutors."


b) "The interviews with police officers and complainants’ responses show that despite the focus on victim care, a culture of suspicion remains within the police, even amongst some of those who are specialists in rape investigations.


There is also a tendency to conflate false allegations with retractions and withdrawals, as if in all such cases no sexual assault occurred.


This reproduces an investigative culture in which elements that might permit a designation of a false complaint are emphasised (later sections reveal how this also feeds into withdrawals and designation of ‘insufficient evidence’), at the expense of a careful investigation, in which the evidence collected is evaluated.[11][12]"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics


Translator, Aug 23, 2011 @ 16:32
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The text you are quoting:

Alexander Rauner, Aug 23, 2011 @ 16:49
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Post 130

Hi Anna,
Thanks for the post.
It is without a doubt that SOME (not ALL) men lack the upbringing to respect women.  Yet still, mother's as well as fathers raise children.  So if men are to be branded as pigs, what does that say about some of the social habits that women confer upon their boys?
I digress.
I completely sympathise for the woman who dresses tastefully and yet is subject to unrelenting and unwanted verbal sexual overtures.  The response to them is to march as you are, not by claiming the identity of a slut.  March for the respect of all women, and not against a police officer who said something that (although hard to hear), had within it a basic truth.
I am weary of stereotypes about men and women.  They simply never add up.  Men are supposed to be more visual.  Well I am blind, so from my perspective, women are more visual.  I will often hear the following whilst among two or more of my female friends: "Oh he is so hot.  I would sleep with him."  Or, "Nah, he is too short."  And the favourite, "There aren't enough cute guys working here."
As I see it, my male friends or no more or less guilty of their visual fixations. 
@Translator, some women carry guns, some pepper spray.  Others take selfdefense courses.  Nothing wrong with telling women to assume some responsibility for their own protection.  If you call that "victim blaming", so be it.


Aug 23, 11 15:07

Please show me where any woman on this thread has branded all men as pigs? All rapists are pigs, yes.


This is a particularly weak form of argument that called "fallacy of accident or sweeping generalization."


You then say you are weary of stereotypes. It might be a good idea then to refrain from using them in argumentation unsupported by any facts.


 

The text you are quoting:

Please show me where any woman on this thread has branded all men as pigs? All rapists are pigs, yes.


This is a particularly weak form of argument that called "fallacy of accident or sweeping generalization."


You then say you are weary of stereotypes. It might be a good idea then to refrain from using them in argumentation unsupported by any facts.


 


Translator, Aug 23, 2011 @ 16:45
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Post 131

You claim the policeman said something which has a basic truth in it. That is your truth which is essentially devoid of fact because most rape studies show that what the woman was wearing had little to no impact on why she was raped.

What this does reveal is your judgements about how you believe women should dress. Absolutely nowhere in your rant is there any statement about teaching men not to abuse women.  Very, very interesting point of view.

I advocate self-defense for all women, especially given the fact that so many men believe that women should not dress as "sluts."

Here is a perfect example of how an 11 year-old girl was blamed for being a victim of a gang-rape.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/16/texas-gang-rape-aftermath-florida-law_n_836841.html

"Last week, the world learned about the town of Cleveland, Texas, where 18 teenage boys gang-raped an 11-year-old girl and, according to The New York Times, caused the community to rend their garments about how the crime would ruin the lives ...of the rapists. There were many lessons to learn. Lessons like: maybe reporters who cover stories like this shouldn't exclusively focus on the adversity faced by rapists. Or: Maybe everyone in Cleveland, Texas is actually some kind of awful monster?

Here's the lesson that Florida state Rep. Kathleen Passidomo took away from the awful event: the state should step in and regulate the wardrobe of 11-year-old girls! Seriously! This is a thing that is happening in Florida, and in our lives, somehow."

 

 


Aug 23, 11 16:21

Perfect example?! Yes, because it's so common! Clap your hands together slowly  three times and eight 11 year old girls are gang raped in Texas in that time. Jesus...


And how would you know how a man's mind works? Because you googled it? Because you read a f--king book once? Men for Dummies maybe?


For Christ's sake! Will you understand that for most men this is abhorent and you can throw all the f--king stats, quotes and links you want into the mix and I know this isn't palatable for you to to hear but the truth is this shit happens!


I'm NOT saying it's solely due to how a woman or girl dresses but the reality (whether you like it or not), the REALITY is this could tip the balance in some cases!


And maybe the police officer in the original post had had his f--king limit at looking at 18 year old girls, sitting in some cold tiled room time after time, having had DNA swabs taken, sobbing their eyes out in rape trauma centres which was why he said it! Maybe he thought if that would save just one women from having to go through this horrific, life altering experience, it would be worth all the shit thrown at him afterwards. Who knows?


I'll look forward to seeing what you Google...

The text you are quoting:

Perfect example?! Yes, because it's so common! Clap your hands together slowly  three times and eight 11 year old girls are gang raped in Texas in that time. Jesus...


And how would you know how a man's mind works? Because you googled it? Because you read a f--king book once? Men for Dummies maybe?


For Christ's sake! Will you understand that for most men this is abhorent and you can throw all the f--king stats, quotes and links you want into the mix and I know this isn't palatable for you to to hear but the truth is this shit happens!


I'm NOT saying it's solely due to how a woman or girl dresses but the reality (whether you like it or not), the REALITY is this could tip the balance in some cases!


And maybe the police officer in the original post had had his f--king limit at looking at 18 year old girls, sitting in some cold tiled room time after time, having had DNA swabs taken, sobbing their eyes out in rape trauma centres which was why he said it! Maybe he thought if that would save just one women from having to go through this horrific, life altering experience, it would be worth all the shit thrown at him afterwards. Who knows?


I'll look forward to seeing what you Google...


Rich, Aug 23, 2011 @ 16:31
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 132

I am doing a representative survey on behalf of myself regarding the above context.


Could I ask you for some help? Can you remember pictures of the following happen to flash through your mind?


> six packs
> this summer dress that you crossed this morning
> Brad (or whoever you like)


> this never ending legs
> that pants of this guy revealing some nice….
> the way she walked and moved her… 


And if so: rather weekly, monthly, every once in a while? 


Thanks!

The text you are quoting:

I am doing a representative survey on behalf of myself regarding the above context.


Could I ask you for some help? Can you remember pictures of the following happen to flash through your mind?


> six packs
> this summer dress that you crossed this morning
> Brad (or whoever you like)


> this never ending legs
> that pants of this guy revealing some nice….
> the way she walked and moved her… 


And if so: rather weekly, monthly, every once in a while? 


Thanks!


rena, Aug 23, 2011 @ 17:00
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 133

Perfect example?! Yes, because it's so common! Clap your hands together slowly  three times and eight 11 year old girls are gang raped in Texas in that time. Jesus...

And how would you know how a man's mind works? Because you googled it? Because you read a f--king book once? Men for Dummies maybe?

For Christ's sake! Will you understand that for most men this is abhorent and you can throw all the f--king stats, quotes and links you want into the mix and I know this isn't palatable for you to to hear but the truth is this shit happens!

I'm NOT saying it's solely due to how a woman or girl dresses but the reality (whether you like it or not), the REALITY is this could tip the balance in some cases!

And maybe the police officer in the original post had had his f--king limit at looking at 18 year old girls, sitting in some cold tiled room time after time, having had DNA swabs taken, sobbing their eyes out in rape trauma centres which was why he said it! Maybe he thought if that would save just one women from having to go through this horrific, life altering experience, it would be worth all the shit thrown at him afterwards. Who knows?

I'll look forward to seeing what you Google...


Aug 23, 11 16:31
This is getting far too agressive. Nobody has insulted you. I guess I'd need to be in your head to understand how this debate is offensive to you or any other man who would feel the same. The danger in what you are currently saying is that it exonerates rapists. Women are struggling all over the world to be respected. It'd be great if the guys on this thread could show more support. But it looks like there's still a long way to go...
The text you are quoting:
This is getting far too agressive. Nobody has insulted you. I guess I'd need to be in your head to understand how this debate is offensive to you or any other man who would feel the same. The danger in what you are currently saying is that it exonerates rapists. Women are struggling all over the world to be respected. It'd be great if the guys on this thread could show more support. But it looks like there's still a long way to go...
Izzie, Aug 23, 2011 @ 17:04
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Post 134

I am doing a representative survey on behalf of myself regarding the above context.

Could I ask you for some help? Can you remember pictures of the following happen to flash through your mind?

> six packs
> this summer dress that you crossed this morning
> Brad (or whoever you like)

> this never ending legs
> that pants of this guy revealing some nice….
> the way she walked and moved her… 

And if so: rather weekly, monthly, every once in a while? 

Thanks!


Aug 23, 11 17:00

Here you go Ren....


- A generic six pack


- A summer dress / legs


- A cute butt


- A "hottie"


 


enjoy :-))))))









The text you are quoting:

Here you go Ren....


- A generic six pack


- A summer dress / legs


- A cute butt


- A "hottie"


 


enjoy :-))))))


Charlie, Aug 23, 2011 @ 17:17
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Post 135

Perfect example?! Yes, because it's so common! Clap your hands together slowly  three times and eight 11 year old girls are gang raped in Texas in that time. Jesus...

And how would you know how a man's mind works? Because you googled it? Because you read a f--king book once? Men for Dummies maybe?

For Christ's sake! Will you understand that for most men this is abhorent and you can throw all the f--king stats, quotes and links you want into the mix and I know this isn't palatable for you to to hear but the truth is this shit happens!

I'm NOT saying it's solely due to how a woman or girl dresses but the reality (whether you like it or not), the REALITY is this could tip the balance in some cases!

And maybe the police officer in the original post had had his f--king limit at looking at 18 year old girls, sitting in some cold tiled room time after time, having had DNA swabs taken, sobbing their eyes out in rape trauma centres which was why he said it! Maybe he thought if that would save just one women from having to go through this horrific, life altering experience, it would be worth all the shit thrown at him afterwards. Who knows?

I'll look forward to seeing what you Google...


Aug 23, 11 16:31

Gee, Rich:


Who said he Florida case was common? You made quite a leap of logic there, brother!


It does say something though that the first response of some of these idiots is legislation concerning dress.  This seems to be a preoccupation with a couple of you as well.  


[As the article notes at the bottom, the Florida legislature has also tried twice unsuccessfully to outlaw sex with animals.]


I can handle the truth -- in all night arguments if need be, using google as well as a fact-based approach. But because I am assertive in my arguments, you seem to believe that I think that all men are pigs.  Not so.


In fact, what I am saying is that, based upon the evidence, for the maority of rapists, the outfit doesn't matter! This is why I am careful with finding some evidence as to how and why rapes occur.


Now, based upon your focus of correlating dress and rape, could you please explain to me the following:


a) rapes of women who wear burquas.  Were their toes showing? Too much wrist?


b) rapes of men by other men.  Were the men dressing slutty? I believe we should counsel G against the open chested pictures, lest someone get the wrong idea!


Finally, according to what I've "googled" on the internet, the most common outfit of a rape victim is jeans and t-shirt.  I won't post the source. I'll just let you google that for yourself.Wink


 

The text you are quoting:

Gee, Rich:


Who said he Florida case was common? You made quite a leap of logic there, brother!


It does say something though that the first response of some of these idiots is legislation concerning dress.  This seems to be a preoccupation with a couple of you as well.  


[As the article notes at the bottom, the Florida legislature has also tried twice unsuccessfully to outlaw sex with animals.]


I can handle the truth -- in all night arguments if need be, using google as well as a fact-based approach. But because I am assertive in my arguments, you seem to believe that I think that all men are pigs.  Not so.


In fact, what I am saying is that, based upon the evidence, for the maority of rapists, the outfit doesn't matter! This is why I am careful with finding some evidence as to how and why rapes occur.


Now, based upon your focus of correlating dress and rape, could you please explain to me the following:


a) rapes of women who wear burquas.  Were their toes showing? Too much wrist?


b) rapes of men by other men.  Were the men dressing slutty? I believe we should counsel G against the open chested pictures, lest someone get the wrong idea!


Finally, according to what I've "googled" on the internet, the most common outfit of a rape victim is jeans and t-shirt.  I won't post the source. I'll just let you google that for yourself.Wink


 


Translator, Aug 23, 2011 @ 17:06
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Post 136
This is getting far too agressive. Nobody has insulted you. I guess I'd need to be in your head to understand how this debate is offensive to you or any other man who would feel the same. The danger in what you are currently saying is that it exonerates rapists. Women are struggling all over the world to be respected. It'd be great if the guys on this thread could show more support. But it looks like there's still a long way to go...
Aug 23, 11 17:04

How dare you say I'm exhonerating rapists!! The only reason I wrote that was because I don't want to see any woman attacked yet most of the women in these threads are writing posts that constantly quote, "We should be able to do what we want, wear what we want etc and nothing happen!". Yes, I guess somewhere there's a happy clappy rainbow coloured fantasy land where that could happen but not in the world you and I exist in!


You want to complain to the moderators about me? Fine! Do it! Ban me! I wouldn't give a shit but at least I'd get my point accross before. And by 'showing support' I guess you mean, "go along with what you've written even though you're not a man, and don't know how some men think!"

The text you are quoting:

How dare you say I'm exhonerating rapists!! The only reason I wrote that was because I don't want to see any woman attacked yet most of the women in these threads are writing posts that constantly quote, "We should be able to do what we want, wear what we want etc and nothing happen!". Yes, I guess somewhere there's a happy clappy rainbow coloured fantasy land where that could happen but not in the world you and I exist in!


You want to complain to the moderators about me? Fine! Do it! Ban me! I wouldn't give a shit but at least I'd get my point accross before. And by 'showing support' I guess you mean, "go along with what you've written even though you're not a man, and don't know how some men think!"


Rich, Aug 23, 2011 @ 17:18
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Post 137

How dare you say I'm exhonerating rapists!! The only reason I wrote that was because I don't want to see any woman attacked yet most of the women in these threads are writing posts that constantly quote, "We should be able to do what we want, wear what we want etc and nothing happen!". Yes, I guess somewhere there's a happy clappy rainbow coloured fantasy land where that could happen but not in the world you and I exist in!

You want to complain to the moderators about me? Fine! Do it! Ban me! I wouldn't give a shit but at least I'd get my point accross before. And by 'showing support' I guess you mean, "go along with what you've written even though you're not a man, and don't know how some men think!"


Aug 23, 11 17:18

Most of us are not ignoring the reality. That's why I posted my views on what I believe a SlutWalk might accomplish. 


I am essentially a pragmatist and live in a reality-based world. Most women know very well that there are various no-go areas in Geneva. In fact, 2 women were raped this past year at the restaurant on Ile in the toilets during peak bar hours. The guy who is now in jail had apparently committed other assaults.


I have not seen a single woman on this thread advocating unsafe behavior.


I believe that many of us understand what you are saying. We just don't understand your persistent emphasis on the clothing aspect.

The text you are quoting:

Most of us are not ignoring the reality. That's why I posted my views on what I believe a SlutWalk might accomplish. 


I am essentially a pragmatist and live in a reality-based world. Most women know very well that there are various no-go areas in Geneva. In fact, 2 women were raped this past year at the restaurant on Ile in the toilets during peak bar hours. The guy who is now in jail had apparently committed other assaults.


I have not seen a single woman on this thread advocating unsafe behavior.


I believe that many of us understand what you are saying. We just don't understand your persistent emphasis on the clothing aspect.


Translator, Aug 23, 2011 @ 17:29
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Post 138

How dare you say I'm exhonerating rapists!! The only reason I wrote that was because I don't want to see any woman attacked yet most of the women in these threads are writing posts that constantly quote, "We should be able to do what we want, wear what we want etc and nothing happen!". Yes, I guess somewhere there's a happy clappy rainbow coloured fantasy land where that could happen but not in the world you and I exist in!

You want to complain to the moderators about me? Fine! Do it! Ban me! I wouldn't give a shit but at least I'd get my point accross before. And by 'showing support' I guess you mean, "go along with what you've written even though you're not a man, and don't know how some men think!"


Aug 23, 11 17:18
I wouldn't ban you; you're an interesting specimen for a study ;-D
The text you are quoting:
I wouldn't ban you; you're an interesting specimen for a study ;-D
Izzie, Aug 23, 2011 @ 17:33
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Post 139

Thanks to Amna for this video...

The text you are quoting:

Thanks to Amna for this video...


Translator, Aug 23, 2011 @ 17:35
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Post 140

can we stick to beer and legs please?


 

The text you are quoting:

can we stick to beer and legs please?


 


Charlie, Aug 23, 2011 @ 17:39
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 141

I believe the less wordy version is "All men are total bastards!"


Aug 23, 11 14:54

Rich:


I'd just like to draw your attention to your very sarcastic comment made in response to Amna's comment on rape stats.


She said, "Valerie, that is depressing."


Now, why is it that you then turned that around into what you said above?


That response, is, indeed, depressing

The text you are quoting:

Rich:


I'd just like to draw your attention to your very sarcastic comment made in response to Amna's comment on rape stats.


She said, "Valerie, that is depressing."


Now, why is it that you then turned that around into what you said above?


That response, is, indeed, depressing


Translator, Aug 23, 2011 @ 17:43
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Post 142

@Translator, you have said so much, so I will try to consolidate my responses in this post.
My point is that a discussion of women's agency in rape or sexual harassment is (unlike with any other social or criminal transgression), a nonstarter.  You are proving my point, first by your personal dig, and then by your unwillingness to carefully read and understand what I said.  For example, I said to Anna, that it is true that some but not all men lack the upbringing to treat women with respect.  It's very, very interesting that you skipped over that.
I am also clear in expressing that rapists should suffer the full penalty of the law.  This goes without saying, but many here have said as much because there are some who refuse to acknowledge that culpability of the criminal and agency of the victim or two different things.
You sight FBI crime statistics as fact.  But we are talking about a Canadian Police Officers statement.  Unless Canada has become the 51st State of the US, I think you should calm down about these stats you call facts.
How we dress communicates a great deal.  Whether what is communicated is necessarily a true reflection of who we are is another discussion altogether .  There are women I know who will wear low cut tops in and out of work, and complain that men continually look at their breasts.  Some of these very same women liken such attention to sexual harassment or something "creepy".  They know what to do if such attention is unwanted.  But they insist on the right to show cleavage without guys looking at it.
Yes, there are rapists.  Dressing appropriately, and comporting yourself in a confident manner is not (according to your facts/stats) going to shoo all the bad guys away.  But it does make a difference by at least getting women to think about things they can do to protect themselves.
And Bravo, it seems you have benefited from a philosophy of logic course.  You seriously need to calm down.
I did not say that anyone on this board claimed that "all men are pigs".  I think where your rebuff is concerned, this is what we call a "Straw man".  Mine was a conditional statement if not a question that eluded to the context as introduced by Anna.  .  My mention of stereotypes refers to her citation of a book.  Using the latter of these two points to beat on the former says little of your capacity for intellectual honesty.  I am not fighting you.  I merely disagree with what I see as a massive overreaction to what the policeman of Toronto had to say.
More over, we aren't just talking about rapists.  We are also talking about those who sexually harass or make crude comments to women in the streets.

The text you are quoting:

@Translator, you have said so much, so I will try to consolidate my responses in this post.
My point is that a discussion of women's agency in rape or sexual harassment is (unlike with any other social or criminal transgression), a nonstarter.  You are proving my point, first by your personal dig, and then by your unwillingness to carefully read and understand what I said.  For example, I said to Anna, that it is true that some but not all men lack the upbringing to treat women with respect.  It's very, very interesting that you skipped over that.
I am also clear in expressing that rapists should suffer the full penalty of the law.  This goes without saying, but many here have said as much because there are some who refuse to acknowledge that culpability of the criminal and agency of the victim or two different things.
You sight FBI crime statistics as fact.  But we are talking about a Canadian Police Officers statement.  Unless Canada has become the 51st State of the US, I think you should calm down about these stats you call facts.
How we dress communicates a great deal.  Whether what is communicated is necessarily a true reflection of who we are is another discussion altogether .  There are women I know who will wear low cut tops in and out of work, and complain that men continually look at their breasts.  Some of these very same women liken such attention to sexual harassment or something "creepy".  They know what to do if such attention is unwanted.  But they insist on the right to show cleavage without guys looking at it.
Yes, there are rapists.  Dressing appropriately, and comporting yourself in a confident manner is not (according to your facts/stats) going to shoo all the bad guys away.  But it does make a difference by at least getting women to think about things they can do to protect themselves.
And Bravo, it seems you have benefited from a philosophy of logic course.  You seriously need to calm down.
I did not say that anyone on this board claimed that "all men are pigs".  I think where your rebuff is concerned, this is what we call a "Straw man".  Mine was a conditional statement if not a question that eluded to the context as introduced by Anna.  .  My mention of stereotypes refers to her citation of a book.  Using the latter of these two points to beat on the former says little of your capacity for intellectual honesty.  I am not fighting you.  I merely disagree with what I see as a massive overreaction to what the policeman of Toronto had to say.
More over, we aren't just talking about rapists.  We are also talking about those who sexually harass or make crude comments to women in the streets.


Abdul Kamara, Aug 23, 2011 @ 15:19
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Post 143

Ah, now that some us have had some very nice offline chats to better understand one another, I thought a little humor might not go amiss...

The text you are quoting:

Ah, now that some us have had some very nice offline chats to better understand one another, I thought a little humor might not go amiss...


Translator, Aug 23, 2011 @ 19:00
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Post 144

That is absurd.  Rape victims should not blamed at all for being assaulted according to the way they dress. A lesbian friend of mine was raped when she was 16.  She's butch and has always dresses like a man.  Even when I first met her, I thought she was a guy..but she was still raped Frown  She chose to keep the baby.

The text you are quoting:

That is absurd.  Rape victims should not blamed at all for being assaulted according to the way they dress. A lesbian friend of mine was raped when she was 16.  She's butch and has always dresses like a man.  Even when I first met her, I thought she was a guy..but she was still raped Frown  She chose to keep the baby.


Tata P, Aug 23, 2011 @ 19:17
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 145

I believe the less wordy version is "All men are total bastards!"


Aug 23, 11 14:54

well, alright then, if you must insist.

The text you are quoting:

well, alright then, if you must insist.


amna a, Aug 23, 2011 @ 19:45
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 146

Hi Anna,
Thanks for the post.
It is without a doubt that SOME (not ALL) men lack the upbringing to respect women.  Yet still, mother's as well as fathers raise children.  So if men are to be branded as pigs, what does that say about some of the social habits that women confer upon their boys?
I digress.
I completely sympathise for the woman who dresses tastefully and yet is subject to unrelenting and unwanted verbal sexual overtures.  The response to them is to march as you are, not by claiming the identity of a slut.  March for the respect of all women, and not against a police officer who said something that (although hard to hear), had within it a basic truth.
I am weary of stereotypes about men and women.  They simply never add up.  Men are supposed to be more visual.  Well I am blind, so from my perspective, women are more visual.  I will often hear the following whilst among two or more of my female friends: "Oh he is so hot.  I would sleep with him."  Or, "Nah, he is too short."  And the favourite, "There aren't enough cute guys working here."
As I see it, my male friends or no more or less guilty of their visual fixations. 
@Translator, some women carry guns, some pepper spray.  Others take selfdefense courses.  Nothing wrong with telling women to assume some responsibility for their own protection.  If you call that "victim blaming", so be it.


Aug 23, 11 15:07

Of course women like good looking guys...we are all programmed to gravitate towards beauty (because it signals good reproductive health) ... its not the same thing as saying men are more visual than women. And of course generalisations are terrible because they only speak for a majority (large or small). But I do believe that IN GENERAL men's reactions to visuals are more pronounced than women as this study demonstrated (there are others but i'm not going to bore people by citing too many articles and studies...if you're really interested go to a library or google it).


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/03/040316072953.htm


And before someone jumps to the wrong conclusion, I'm not saying that this gives men the right to behave crassly with women, under any circumstances.

The text you are quoting:

Of course women like good looking guys...we are all programmed to gravitate towards beauty (because it signals good reproductive health) ... its not the same thing as saying men are more visual than women. And of course generalisations are terrible because they only speak for a majority (large or small). But I do believe that IN GENERAL men's reactions to visuals are more pronounced than women as this study demonstrated (there are others but i'm not going to bore people by citing too many articles and studies...if you're really interested go to a library or google it).


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/03/040316072953.htm


And before someone jumps to the wrong conclusion, I'm not saying that this gives men the right to behave crassly with women, under any circumstances.


amna a, Aug 23, 2011 @ 19:51
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 147

By the way, is this thread making anyone else feel like this:


Memo from CEO to Manager:


Today at 11 o’clock there will be a total eclipse of the sun. This is when the sun disappears behind the moon for two minutes. As this is something that cannot be seen every day, time will be allowed for employees to view the eclipse in the parking lot. Staff should meet in the lot at ten to eleven, when I will deliver a short speech introducing the eclipse, and giving some background information. Safety goggles will be made available at a small cost.


Memo from Manager to Department Head:


Today at ten to eleven, all staff should meet in the car park. This will be followed by a total eclipse of the sun, which will appear for two minutes. For a moderate cost, this will be made safe with goggles. The CEO will deliver a short speech beforehand to give us all some information. This not something that can be seen everyday.


Memo from Dept. Head to Floor Manager:


The CEO will today deliver a short speech to make the sun disappear for two minutes in the form of an eclipse. This is something that cannot be seen every day, so staff will meet in the car park at ten or eleven. This will be safe, if you pay a moderate cost.


Memo from Floor Manager to Supervisor:


Ten or eleven staff are to go to the car park, where the CEO will eclipse the sun for two minutes. This doesn’t happen every day. It will be safe, and as usual it will cost you.

Memo from Supervisor to Staff:


Some staff will go to the car park today to see the CEO disappear. It is a pity, this doesn’t happen everyday.

The text you are quoting:

By the way, is this thread making anyone else feel like this:


Memo from CEO to Manager:


Today at 11 o’clock there will be a total eclipse of the sun. This is when the sun disappears behind the moon for two minutes. As this is something that cannot be seen every day, time will be allowed for employees to view the eclipse in the parking lot. Staff should meet in the lot at ten to eleven, when I will deliver a short speech introducing the eclipse, and giving some background information. Safety goggles will be made available at a small cost.


Memo from Manager to Department Head:


Today at ten to eleven, all staff should meet in the car park. This will be followed by a total eclipse of the sun, which will appear for two minutes. For a moderate cost, this will be made safe with goggles. The CEO will deliver a short speech beforehand to give us all some information. This not something that can be seen everyday.


Memo from Dept. Head to Floor Manager:


The CEO will today deliver a short speech to make the sun disappear for two minutes in the form of an eclipse. This is something that cannot be seen every day, so staff will meet in the car park at ten or eleven. This will be safe, if you pay a moderate cost.


Memo from Floor Manager to Supervisor:


Ten or eleven staff are to go to the car park, where the CEO will eclipse the sun for two minutes. This doesn’t happen every day. It will be safe, and as usual it will cost you.

Memo from Supervisor to Staff:


Some staff will go to the car park today to see the CEO disappear. It is a pity, this doesn’t happen everyday.


amna a, Aug 23, 2011 @ 20:07
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 148

Rape isnt a crime of passion, its an act of aggression.. so there is minimal  correlation between your clothing choice and your likelihood of being raped. Moreover, its more likely attributed to being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Or in instances of date/aquiantance rape it is a crime of oppurtunity.


Your clothes will get good jeers out of the crowd... but attention either wanted nor unwanted has very little to do with rape.


Any criminal justice professional who can lay the blame of rape on a woman's clothing needs to go back to school.. and relearn "Casuality"..


Does the correlation from rape of women in "slut" clothes have anything to do with the time rapes occur? if your more dangerous hours are 2-5 am than yes, you will probably find more girls dressed like sluts..  I often leave my business attire home when I'm out for the evening.. Slut clothes it is.. but I can assume my security is based more off of personal choices (not walking alone, but being in dangerous areas at night) than my clothing choice.


Some things are correlated, without having any casuality of the effect

The text you are quoting:

Rape isnt a crime of passion, its an act of aggression.. so there is minimal  correlation between your clothing choice and your likelihood of being raped. Moreover, its more likely attributed to being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Or in instances of date/aquiantance rape it is a crime of oppurtunity.


Your clothes will get good jeers out of the crowd... but attention either wanted nor unwanted has very little to do with rape.


Any criminal justice professional who can lay the blame of rape on a woman's clothing needs to go back to school.. and relearn "Casuality"..


Does the correlation from rape of women in "slut" clothes have anything to do with the time rapes occur? if your more dangerous hours are 2-5 am than yes, you will probably find more girls dressed like sluts..  I often leave my business attire home when I'm out for the evening.. Slut clothes it is.. but I can assume my security is based more off of personal choices (not walking alone, but being in dangerous areas at night) than my clothing choice.


Some things are correlated, without having any casuality of the effect


Lexillent, Aug 23, 2011 @ 21:07
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Post 149

Thanks to Amna for this video...


Aug 23, 11 17:35

HILARIOUS!!!!! Thanks Ladies xx

The text you are quoting:

HILARIOUS!!!!! Thanks Ladies xx


Carolyn C, Aug 23, 2011 @ 21:26
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Post 150

Ah, now that some us have had some very nice offline chats to better understand one another, I thought a little humor might not go amiss...


Aug 23, 11 19:00

And back on topic (sort of.....)


 

The text you are quoting:

And back on topic (sort of.....)


 


Carolyn C, Aug 23, 2011 @ 21:45
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 151

Rape isnt a crime of passion, its an act of aggression.. so there is minimal  correlation between your clothing choice and your likelihood of being raped. Moreover, its more likely attributed to being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Or in instances of date/aquiantance rape it is a crime of oppurtunity.

Your clothes will get good jeers out of the crowd... but attention either wanted nor unwanted has very little to do with rape.

Any criminal justice professional who can lay the blame of rape on a woman's clothing needs to go back to school.. and relearn "Casuality"..

Does the correlation from rape of women in "slut" clothes have anything to do with the time rapes occur? if your more dangerous hours are 2-5 am than yes, you will probably find more girls dressed like sluts..  I often leave my business attire home when I'm out for the evening.. Slut clothes it is.. but I can assume my security is based more off of personal choices (not walking alone, but being in dangerous areas at night) than my clothing choice.

Some things are correlated, without having any casuality of the effect


Aug 23, 11 21:07

Funny example of correlation vs. causality


"For example, I can "prove" correlation at Pearson's R Score of .97 (which is VERY high) that Ice Cream consumption "causes" rape. But the correlation is not causality; and the correlation is spurious.

Why? Because Ice Cream consumption is based on weather, and so is rape. When the weather is warm, Ice Cream consumption goes up, and when the weather is cold, it goes down. Likewise, most rapes occur in the warmer months because people are more likely to be outdoors. And in the colder months when people are less likely to be outside, rapes decline.

All correlation measures is how one set of data "move" against another set. Do they match? Are they reversed (inverse correlation)?

If you control for Weather, the original correlation disappears. So Ice Cream consumption does not "instigate" rape. Make sense?"


http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090918071424AAAr1xu

The text you are quoting:

Funny example of correlation vs. causality


"For example, I can "prove" correlation at Pearson's R Score of .97 (which is VERY high) that Ice Cream consumption "causes" rape. But the correlation is not causality; and the correlation is spurious.

Why? Because Ice Cream consumption is based on weather, and so is rape. When the weather is warm, Ice Cream consumption goes up, and when the weather is cold, it goes down. Likewise, most rapes occur in the warmer months because people are more likely to be outdoors. And in the colder months when people are less likely to be outside, rapes decline.

All correlation measures is how one set of data "move" against another set. Do they match? Are they reversed (inverse correlation)?

If you control for Weather, the original correlation disappears. So Ice Cream consumption does not "instigate" rape. Make sense?"


http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090918071424AAAr1xu


Translator, Aug 23, 2011 @ 22:01
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Post 152

this is the thread that never ends,


yes it goes on and on my friends.


some people started reading, not knowing what it was,


and now they'll keep on reading it forever just because..


 


This is the thread that never ends..


 


x 173 to date..

The text you are quoting:

this is the thread that never ends,


yes it goes on and on my friends.


some people started reading, not knowing what it was,


and now they'll keep on reading it forever just because..


 


This is the thread that never ends..


 


x 173 to date..


G___, Aug 23, 2011 @ 23:31
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Post 153

8 11 year old girls in Texas by the time you clap three times?  Where do you get this stuff?  It toatlly takes away from your argument.

The text you are quoting:

8 11 year old girls in Texas by the time you clap three times?  Where do you get this stuff?  It toatlly takes away from your argument.


Robert C, Aug 23, 2011 @ 23:42
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Post 154

this is the thread that never ends,

yes it goes on and on my friends.

some people started reading, not knowing what it was,

and now they'll keep on reading it forever just because..

 

This is the thread that never ends..

 

x 173 to date..


Aug 23, 11 23:31

Nope it's not gonna end now, especially as we are all waiting for your photo!

The text you are quoting:

Nope it's not gonna end now, especially as we are all waiting for your photo!


Translator, Aug 23, 2011 @ 23:53
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Post 155

Nope it's not gonna end now, especially as we are all waiting for your photo!


Aug 23, 11 23:53

ahaahaha! yes we are waiting with bated breath!

The text you are quoting:

ahaahaha! yes we are waiting with bated breath!


amna a, Aug 24, 2011 @ 08:36
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Post 156

found this in hello magazine today..



The text you are quoting:

found this in hello magazine today..


G___, Aug 24, 2011 @ 14:40
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Post 157

found this in hello magazine today..


Aug 24, 11 14:40

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


If there was a "best glocals post ever" competition - you'd be my winner! :-)

The text you are quoting:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


If there was a "best glocals post ever" competition - you'd be my winner! :-)


Carolyn C, Aug 24, 2011 @ 16:14
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Post 158

found this in hello magazine today..


Aug 24, 11 14:40

Ahahahahaha! But wait, why does that body look so familiar, hmmmmmm?!!

The text you are quoting:

Ahahahahaha! But wait, why does that body look so familiar, hmmmmmm?!!


amna a, Aug 24, 2011 @ 16:37
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Post 159

Ahahahahaha! But wait, why does that body look so familiar, hmmmmmm?!!


Aug 24, 11 16:37

he must go to the same gym as me i guess..

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he must go to the same gym as me i guess..


G___, Aug 24, 2011 @ 16:49
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Post 160

Translator: The 2% false rape accusation statistic discussed here and here.  As best I can tell, the stat first came to life in Susan Brownmiller's Against Our Will (1975) and everyone has taken it at face value ever since.


Could you believe 41%?


Here is Wikipedia, definitely not authoritative, but it provides some useful cites in addition to a quote regarding problems with the 8% statistic you mentioned from that Salon article.

The text you are quoting:

Translator: The 2% false rape accusation statistic discussed here and here.  As best I can tell, the stat first came to life in Susan Brownmiller's Against Our Will (1975) and everyone has taken it at face value ever since.


Could you believe 41%?


Here is Wikipedia, definitely not authoritative, but it provides some useful cites in addition to a quote regarding problems with the 8% statistic you mentioned from that Salon article.


richardm, Aug 24, 2011 @ 18:43
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Post 161

No, still 8-10% based upon more recent and comprehensive studies.


That study you cite has been debunked by a Cambridge University professor:


The 40 percent figure is usually attributed to a 1994 article by E.J. Kanin in the Archives of Sexual Behavior. Kanin looked at 109 reports of rape to police in one small Midwestern metropolitan area over nine years.


His pool was small. The police he studied always offered the victim a polygraph—perhaps signaling they doubted her veracity. And Kanin himself "warns against generalising from his findings" and points to reasons for questioning them, as Rumney explains.


An article in Slate references a Cambridge professors review of false rape allegation studies and finds 8-10% across several countries:


http://www.slate.com/id/2231012/pagenum/all/#p2

The text you are quoting:

No, still 8-10% based upon more recent and comprehensive studies.


That study you cite has been debunked by a Cambridge University professor:


The 40 percent figure is usually attributed to a 1994 article by E.J. Kanin in the Archives of Sexual Behavior. Kanin looked at 109 reports of rape to police in one small Midwestern metropolitan area over nine years.


His pool was small. The police he studied always offered the victim a polygraph—perhaps signaling they doubted her veracity. And Kanin himself "warns against generalising from his findings" and points to reasons for questioning them, as Rumney explains.


An article in Slate references a Cambridge professors review of false rape allegation studies and finds 8-10% across several countries:


http://www.slate.com/id/2231012/pagenum/all/#p2


Translator, Aug 24, 2011 @ 19:34
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Post 162

From my female point of view I would say: Where is the problem to dress sexy.


But as I am not a man, it's difficult to say how men perceive visual attraction.


Most of us know basically how to catch a guy's interest by dressing in a certain way. So obviously there is something that a guy can control less. A matter of testosteron...?


 


 


 


 

The text you are quoting:

From my female point of view I would say: Where is the problem to dress sexy.


But as I am not a man, it's difficult to say how men perceive visual attraction.


Most of us know basically how to catch a guy's interest by dressing in a certain way. So obviously there is something that a guy can control less. A matter of testosteron...?


 


 


 


 


rena, Aug 24, 2011 @ 21:30
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Post 163

@Translator, you have said so much, so I will try to consolidate my responses in this post.
My point is that a discussion of women's agency in rape or sexual harassment is (unlike with any other social or criminal transgression), a nonstarter.  You are proving my point, first by your personal dig, and then by your unwillingness to carefully read and understand what I said.  For example, I said to Anna, that it is true that some but not all men lack the upbringing to treat women with respect.  It's very, very interesting that you skipped over that.
I am also clear in expressing that rapists should suffer the full penalty of the law.  This goes without saying, but many here have said as much because there are some who refuse to acknowledge that culpability of the criminal and agency of the victim or two different things.
You sight FBI crime statistics as fact.  But we are talking about a Canadian Police Officers statement.  Unless Canada has become the 51st State of the US, I think you should calm down about these stats you call facts.
How we dress communicates a great deal.  Whether what is communicated is necessarily a true reflection of who we are is another discussion altogether .  There are women I know who will wear low cut tops in and out of work, and complain that men continually look at their breasts.  Some of these very same women liken such attention to sexual harassment or something "creepy".  They know what to do if such attention is unwanted.  But they insist on the right to show cleavage without guys looking at it.
Yes, there are rapists.  Dressing appropriately, and comporting yourself in a confident manner is not (according to your facts/stats) going to shoo all the bad guys away.  But it does make a difference by at least getting women to think about things they can do to protect themselves.
And Bravo, it seems you have benefited from a philosophy of logic course.  You seriously need to calm down.
I did not say that anyone on this board claimed that "all men are pigs".  I think where your rebuff is concerned, this is what we call a "Straw man".  Mine was a conditional statement if not a question that eluded to the context as introduced by Anna.  .  My mention of stereotypes refers to her citation of a book.  Using the latter of these two points to beat on the former says little of your capacity for intellectual honesty.  I am not fighting you.  I merely disagree with what I see as a massive overreaction to what the policeman of Toronto had to say.
More over, we aren't just talking about rapists.  We are also talking about those who sexually harass or make crude comments to women in the streets.


Aug 23, 11 15:19

Intellectual honesty involves taking on arguments, however false, head on.  


Deconstructing your arguments and examining your reasoning are not personal attacks.  I find it quite amusing that you insist I calm down as my argumentation is logical and based upon some evidence at least.  


I do not believe -- based upon evidence -- the myths that women are raped based upon their clothing. Period. Policemen and women all over the world should be trained appropriately and speak from the facts and as Lexillent wrote, to learn causation versus correlation.


1)  Canadian rape statistics


http://www.sexassault.ca/statistics.htm


Rape and sexual assault prevention programs are indeed "agency" based. These experts know these assaults have nothing to do with clothing, even though you and others continue to believe it does. 


2) You stated that " I guess being the victim is a much more powerful position.  Victims get to say what can or cannot be discussed.  Victims have the power of blame and guilt.  That's why victims don't like to be told how they can move away from being victimised."


Rape and sexual assault victims all over the world speak out to assist other women and men from going through the same horror. If you speak to rape counselors or read about the aftermath of rape you will see that many victims blame themselves.  Your statement is, at best, highly insensitive.


3) You state that "women who dress slutty know what they are doing." That reminds me of this satirical piece from the onion, titled "Local Harlot Exposes Face, Neck."


http://www.theonion.com/articles/local-harlot-exposes-face-neck,20410/


 


 

The text you are quoting:

Intellectual honesty involves taking on arguments, however false, head on.  


Deconstructing your arguments and examining your reasoning are not personal attacks.  I find it quite amusing that you insist I calm down as my argumentation is logical and based upon some evidence at least.  


I do not believe -- based upon evidence -- the myths that women are raped based upon their clothing. Period. Policemen and women all over the world should be trained appropriately and speak from the facts and as Lexillent wrote, to learn causation versus correlation.


1)  Canadian rape statistics


http://www.sexassault.ca/statistics.htm


Rape and sexual assault prevention programs are indeed "agency" based. These experts know these assaults have nothing to do with clothing, even though you and others continue to believe it does. 


2) You stated that " I guess being the victim is a much more powerful position.  Victims get to say what can or cannot be discussed.  Victims have the power of blame and guilt.  That's why victims don't like to be told how they can move away from being victimised."


Rape and sexual assault victims all over the world speak out to assist other women and men from going through the same horror. If you speak to rape counselors or read about the aftermath of rape you will see that many victims blame themselves.  Your statement is, at best, highly insensitive.


3) You state that "women who dress slutty know what they are doing." That reminds me of this satirical piece from the onion, titled "Local Harlot Exposes Face, Neck."


http://www.theonion.com/articles/local-harlot-exposes-face-neck,20410/


 


 


Translator, Aug 25, 2011 @ 02:51
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Post 164

It is plainly clear that IRRESPECTIVE of how a woman dresses or behaves, Men have NO right to force themselves on that woman, whether verbally or physically.


However, not all men are raised with this respect, and not all men think the same way. Hence the misconceptions, which, to those of us who are raised with respect for the "fairer sex" are abhorant, but to those who have a lacking in this area, its confounding, and probably many of them think the woman "led them on".


Sadly there is no cure to this problem, as far as men are concerned, due to the diversity of cultures and upbringing that we now see in almost every country....but, there is probably more women can do to protect themselves and prevent an escalation to a situation that no sane person wants.


Police the world over are mostly "reactionist" elements, and enter the situation when its too late (after the event), so educating the police is a bit like bolting the farm gate after the horse has bolted.


Educating women, on personal safety and how to react to unwanted suggestive verbal attention is probably a good start, and creating/enhancing laws which favour the VICTIM in both process and punishment is a good thing.


There is evidence that many rapes and sexual attacks occur to a women by someone she knows. Many household beatings, go unreported, (I find it a shame and shocking that any woman puts up with any man after the first punch/slap, but seemingly many are too fast to forgive) and there are still too many sexual attacks that go unreported, for many many reasons.


When society learns to not lable the woman as "asking for it" etc simply because she is pretty, then clearly it will bring about less (percieved)  social shame for women to report these attacks.


There are no two sides to a story when a woman says "NO"... No means no, at any time....


Back to the original theme thread, I do like to see well dressed and sexy women, it cheers up my day, makes me smile. Are they sluts for dressing provocatively...no, not in my mind, beauty should be displayed, and not hidden, (without the worry of thinking that every guy will want to jump them).


Someone told me once. "Women dress for themselves, Men dress for women"... It may not be universally true, but does go some way in showing why many women get shocked when men approach them, since they dressed for themselves, and hence start from some level of innocence.


For all the good this world has, and how well it has developed over time, it is sad that  "respect" for others is something that is clearly diminishing with time.

The text you are quoting:

It is plainly clear that IRRESPECTIVE of how a woman dresses or behaves, Men have NO right to force themselves on that woman, whether verbally or physically.


However, not all men are raised with this respect, and not all men think the same way. Hence the misconceptions, which, to those of us who are raised with respect for the "fairer sex" are abhorant, but to those who have a lacking in this area, its confounding, and probably many of them think the woman "led them on".


Sadly there is no cure to this problem, as far as men are concerned, due to the diversity of cultures and upbringing that we now see in almost every country....but, there is probably more women can do to protect themselves and prevent an escalation to a situation that no sane person wants.


Police the world over are mostly "reactionist" elements, and enter the situation when its too late (after the event), so educating the police is a bit like bolting the farm gate after the horse has bolted.


Educating women, on personal safety and how to react to unwanted suggestive verbal attention is probably a good start, and creating/enhancing laws which favour the VICTIM in both process and punishment is a good thing.


There is evidence that many rapes and sexual attacks occur to a women by someone she knows. Many household beatings, go unreported, (I find it a shame and shocking that any woman puts up with any man after the first punch/slap, but seemingly many are too fast to forgive) and there are still too many sexual attacks that go unreported, for many many reasons.


When society learns to not lable the woman as "asking for it" etc simply because she is pretty, then clearly it will bring about less (percieved)  social shame for women to report these attacks.


There are no two sides to a story when a woman says "NO"... No means no, at any time....


Back to the original theme thread, I do like to see well dressed and sexy women, it cheers up my day, makes me smile. Are they sluts for dressing provocatively...no, not in my mind, beauty should be displayed, and not hidden, (without the worry of thinking that every guy will want to jump them).


Someone told me once. "Women dress for themselves, Men dress for women"... It may not be universally true, but does go some way in showing why many women get shocked when men approach them, since they dressed for themselves, and hence start from some level of innocence.


For all the good this world has, and how well it has developed over time, it is sad that  "respect" for others is something that is clearly diminishing with time.


Charlie, Aug 25, 2011 @ 08:39
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Post 165

SlutWalk Delhi video

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SlutWalk Delhi video


Translator, Aug 25, 2011 @ 13:48
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Post 166

Pictures from Slutwalk Stockholm...not the best and unfortunately I got only the back of the sign, but you can see it has a wide mix of people and dress.





The text you are quoting:

Pictures from Slutwalk Stockholm...not the best and unfortunately I got only the back of the sign, but you can see it has a wide mix of people and dress.


Sandrine S, Aug 25, 2011 @ 16:08
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Post 167

Oh and no I am not in those pictures...

The text you are quoting:

Oh and no I am not in those pictures...


Sandrine S, Aug 25, 2011 @ 16:21
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Post 168

type 'slut walk' in a forum and choke the view glocals server - you men should be ashamed of yourselves!!!!!!


izzie, if you could arrange this event to happen here in the geneva summer, i would support the cause by providing waterspray* for the participants.


Christopher


 


 


 


 


 


*supersoaker 9000 with a soap chamber


 


 

The text you are quoting:

type 'slut walk' in a forum and choke the view glocals server - you men should be ashamed of yourselves!!!!!!


izzie, if you could arrange this event to happen here in the geneva summer, i would support the cause by providing waterspray* for the participants.


Christopher


 


 


 


 


 


*supersoaker 9000 with a soap chamber


 


 


christophe, Aug 25, 2011 @ 17:46
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Post 169
It is happening! SLUT WALK in Geneva today!
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It is happening! SLUT WALK in Geneva today!
Izzie, Oct 6, 2012 @ 12:16
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Post 170

Pics or GTFO.

The text you are quoting:

Pics or GTFO.


richardm, Oct 7, 2012 @ 20:57
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Post 171

Pics or GTFO.


Oct 7, 12 20:57

Don't worry Richard; looks like Keith P was on the case...Laughing

The text you are quoting:

Don't worry Richard; looks like Keith P was on the case...Laughing


Rich, Oct 7, 2012 @ 21:10
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Post 172

I love the line on YouTube "What if you saw this guy drooling over your daughter?"


I think I'd be a little more worried about why my daughter is on a stage pulling her shirt off in front of a crowd.  Evil patriarch, I am.

The text you are quoting:

I love the line on YouTube "What if you saw this guy drooling over your daughter?"


I think I'd be a little more worried about why my daughter is on a stage pulling her shirt off in front of a crowd.  Evil patriarch, I am.


richardm, Oct 7, 2012 @ 21:33
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Post 173

Yesterday I was enjoying another kind of walk... the one on the beautiful Lavaux vineyard terraces... but I was wondering if any of our Geneva friends went yesterday.


Ultimately I googled "geneva slut walk" (didn't expect to find Glocals on the first line Wink) and found loads of photos...



The text you are quoting:

Yesterday I was enjoying another kind of walk... the one on the beautiful Lavaux vineyard terraces... but I was wondering if any of our Geneva friends went yesterday.


Ultimately I googled "geneva slut walk" (didn't expect to find Glocals on the first line Wink) and found loads of photos...


Izzie, Oct 7, 2012 @ 22:04
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Post 174

I'm finished with the Internet for tonight.



The text you are quoting:

I'm finished with the Internet for tonight.


richardm, Oct 8, 2012 @ 00:20
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Post 175

At the same time yesterday, I saw that pic on FB... and couldn't help but thinking 2 things...


1) can it really be a question of clothes then?


2) why do some women insist on wearing the hijab in Western countries FGS!?!?



The text you are quoting:

At the same time yesterday, I saw that pic on FB... and couldn't help but thinking 2 things...


1) can it really be a question of clothes then?


2) why do some women insist on wearing the hijab in Western countries FGS!?!?


Izzie, Oct 8, 2012 @ 00:04
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Post 176

I'm finished with the Internet for tonight.


Oct 8, 12 00:20

Not just yet Richard, that song is just soooo good!!! :D

The text you are quoting:

Not just yet Richard, that song is just soooo good!!! :D


Izzie, Oct 8, 2012 @ 00:51
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Post 177

I love the line on YouTube "What if you saw this guy drooling over your daughter?"

I think I'd be a little more worried about why my daughter is on a stage pulling her shirt off in front of a crowd.  Evil patriarch, I am.


Oct 7, 12 21:33

Totally understand your point however since your daughter isn't harming anyone (except the eyes of her poor dad), I would still defend her freedom and rights to do silly things... That guy would have to walk over my dead body if he tries to do anything to her!

The text you are quoting:

Totally understand your point however since your daughter isn't harming anyone (except the eyes of her poor dad), I would still defend her freedom and rights to do silly things... That guy would have to walk over my dead body if he tries to do anything to her!


Izzie, Oct 8, 2012 @ 00:55
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Post 178

Let's admit it, sluts must be right, afterall... they've got great support CoolWinkTongue out



The text you are quoting:

Let's admit it, sluts must be right, afterall... they've got great support CoolWinkTongue out


Izzie, Oct 8, 2012 @ 01:06
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Post 179

sorry if i add a bit of bitterness to your icecream but to me Real attractive women without a chip on their shoulders, who feel comfortable within their own skins don't even go to such ridiculous marches.....


I cant think of a single classy, intelligent woman who would even dress like the women i saw in the slut walk (pink hair or ridiculous wigs, tattoos and tons of sagginess all over that i didnt want to see at all)


(I was on my way to a friend's house and saw the march)....


real empowered women are happy being women and feeling empowered in other much productive ways wether they are being a good mother and wife to their children and husband, or a respectable professional or just a decent human being or whatever suits them the best......


what i saw in that march was the "all men are scum and rapist, i have a chip on my shoulders type of psycho" and ridiculous college hipsters trying to look cool. 


as far as the rape that created the slut walk movement, a woman dressed like what witnesses though was a streewalker, ventured into an empty dark park in toronto at 2am on a saturday night and got rapped, hence the non-pc cop making such comment.... (NO WONDER!!!) are people really this stupid?


 

The text you are quoting:

sorry if i add a bit of bitterness to your icecream but to me Real attractive women without a chip on their shoulders, who feel comfortable within their own skins don't even go to such ridiculous marches.....


I cant think of a single classy, intelligent woman who would even dress like the women i saw in the slut walk (pink hair or ridiculous wigs, tattoos and tons of sagginess all over that i didnt want to see at all)


(I was on my way to a friend's house and saw the march)....


real empowered women are happy being women and feeling empowered in other much productive ways wether they are being a good mother and wife to their children and husband, or a respectable professional or just a decent human being or whatever suits them the best......


what i saw in that march was the "all men are scum and rapist, i have a chip on my shoulders type of psycho" and ridiculous college hipsters trying to look cool. 


as far as the rape that created the slut walk movement, a woman dressed like what witnesses though was a streewalker, ventured into an empty dark park in toronto at 2am on a saturday night and got rapped, hence the non-pc cop making such comment.... (NO WONDER!!!) are people really this stupid?


 


andy o, Oct 8, 2012 @ 06:43
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Post 180

From my female point of view I would say: Where is the problem to dress sexy.

But as I am not a man, it's difficult to say how men perceive visual attraction.

Most of us know basically how to catch a guy's interest by dressing in a certain way. So obviously there is something that a guy can control less. A matter of testosteron...?

 

 

 

 


Aug 24, 11 21:30

dressing sexy and dressing like street trash is completely different....


 


class, elegance and good manners is sexy.....


wearing a pink wig with a tiny skirt that's so small your cellulite just hangs and your nipples are out for the whole world to see is not sexy, that's as trashy as trashy can get.  (that's the type of outfits i saw in that march)

The text you are quoting:

dressing sexy and dressing like street trash is completely different....


 


class, elegance and good manners is sexy.....


wearing a pink wig with a tiny skirt that's so small your cellulite just hangs and your nipples are out for the whole world to see is not sexy, that's as trashy as trashy can get.  (that's the type of outfits i saw in that march)


andy o, Oct 8, 2012 @ 07:20
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Post 181

I hear other men make sexist remarks about women every day of the week.  I do it too.  But when push comes to shove, nearly all of us would fall on a grenade to protect them.  Well, most of them.  OK, many of them.  Wink

I can't say the same thing for women and their regard for other women.  They are like crabs in a pot, dragging each other back into the pot so that none can escape.


Aug 19, 11 19:45

Errr...excuse ME??? This poster seemed to change personality in the middle of writing.Personally,I don't know any of these "crabs" but,if they do exist,I think they also have their male counterparts(we all know how uncompetitive men are)

The text you are quoting:

Errr...excuse ME??? This poster seemed to change personality in the middle of writing.Personally,I don't know any of these "crabs" but,if they do exist,I think they also have their male counterparts(we all know how uncompetitive men are)


buzzcocks, Oct 8, 2012 @ 10:43
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Post 182

This 'negativity' you hear around the word slut is one of the problems. The word is, indeed, historically negative, but the practice it describes, polyamory, is not.

Even if a certain dress style is considered provocative, it is at most a communication that a woman is interested in sex. It does not communicate that she is interested in being raped. "Your mouth says no but your clothes say yes," is not a valid argument. No, Nien, or Non, is No, and that's the end of it.

 


Aug 19, 11 23:31

Wow-an intelligent,succinct comment on the Forums. A rare event indeed.Hallelujah!

The text you are quoting:

Wow-an intelligent,succinct comment on the Forums. A rare event indeed.Hallelujah!


buzzcocks, Oct 8, 2012 @ 10:53
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Post 183

BS - we are human - and women DO actually have an interest in sex...nowhere near as much as men which is what this is all about...in fact a womans ONLY real goal is to be sexually desirable...the rest is just intellectualising life


Aug 20, 11 08:21

Oh P-leeeeze! Actually,I don't even know why I'm bothering to say anything to this.It is just .....no,no words to say it

The text you are quoting:

Oh P-leeeeze! Actually,I don't even know why I'm bothering to say anything to this.It is just .....no,no words to say it


buzzcocks, Oct 8, 2012 @ 10:56
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Post 184

sorry if i add a bit of bitterness to your icecream but to me Real attractive women without a chip on their shoulders, who feel comfortable within their own skins don't even go to such ridiculous marches.....

I cant think of a single classy, intelligent woman who would even dress like the women i saw in the slut walk (pink hair or ridiculous wigs, tattoos and tons of sagginess all over that i didnt want to see at all)

(I was on my way to a friend's house and saw the march)....

real empowered women are happy being women and feeling empowered in other much productive ways wether they are being a good mother and wife to their children and husband, or a respectable professional or just a decent human being or whatever suits them the best......

what i saw in that march was the "all men are scum and rapist, i have a chip on my shoulders type of psycho" and ridiculous college hipsters trying to look cool. 

as far as the rape that created the slut walk movement, a woman dressed like what witnesses though was a streewalker, ventured into an empty dark park in toronto at 2am on a saturday night and got rapped, hence the non-pc cop making such comment.... (NO WONDER!!!) are people really this stupid?

 


Oct 8, 12 06:43

Help Emma! NVC is highly needed here!!! Laughing

The text you are quoting:

Help Emma! NVC is highly needed here!!! Laughing


Izzie, Oct 8, 2012 @ 11:01
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Post 185

Ok I am just going to say it once more before I rest my case here...


This is not a women vs. men fight. It is simply human. This shouldn't hard to understand. Nobody deserves sexual assault no matter what. There shouldn't be any argument exonerating a rapist.


The outfits in the street are just part of the message, whether it is attractive or sexy or tasteless is not the issue (I don't think you will find any of these women dressed like that normally).


If any of you is interested in a civil discussion on the topic, you are all welcome to café philo on Sunday 28 October @ 7:00 pm.


http://www.glocals.com/things-to-do/lausanne/51252.htm

The text you are quoting:

Ok I am just going to say it once more before I rest my case here...


This is not a women vs. men fight. It is simply human. This shouldn't hard to understand. Nobody deserves sexual assault no matter what. There shouldn't be any argument exonerating a rapist.


The outfits in the street are just part of the message, whether it is attractive or sexy or tasteless is not the issue (I don't think you will find any of these women dressed like that normally).


If any of you is interested in a civil discussion on the topic, you are all welcome to café philo on Sunday 28 October @ 7:00 pm.


http://www.glocals.com/things-to-do/lausanne/51252.htm


Izzie, Oct 8, 2012 @ 11:04
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Post 186

Translation: Support the slutwalk or else you are a rape apologist.

The text you are quoting:

Translation: Support the slutwalk or else you are a rape apologist.


richardm, Oct 8, 2012 @ 11:28
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Post 187

dressing sexy and dressing like street trash is completely different....

 

class, elegance and good manners is sexy.....

wearing a pink wig with a tiny skirt that's so small your cellulite just hangs and your nipples are out for the whole world to see is not sexy, that's as trashy as trashy can get.  (that's the type of outfits i saw in that march)


Oct 8, 12 07:20

What is "trashy"?Even our Charlie doesn't use words like that.


And what about "high class" hookers who charge high fees and only go by appointment to "classy" clients? Would they deserve to be raped - I suppose not since they would probably travel dressed in expensive "classy" clothes unlike the poorer,more desperate street prostitutes who have to dress for their market and catch the eye of the punters.


I suppose her style of dress would be "trashy" and the other not - even though they are engaged in the same activity?


So what does "trashy" really mean ? I think we should think carefully about the way we throw words around.

The text you are quoting:

What is "trashy"?Even our Charlie doesn't use words like that.


And what about "high class" hookers who charge high fees and only go by appointment to "classy" clients? Would they deserve to be raped - I suppose not since they would probably travel dressed in expensive "classy" clothes unlike the poorer,more desperate street prostitutes who have to dress for their market and catch the eye of the punters.


I suppose her style of dress would be "trashy" and the other not - even though they are engaged in the same activity?


So what does "trashy" really mean ? I think we should think carefully about the way we throw words around.


buzzcocks, Oct 8, 2012 @ 11:00
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Post 188

What is "trashy"?Even our Charlie doesn't use words like that.

And what about "high class" hookers who charge high fees and only go by appointment to "classy" clients? Would they deserve to be raped - I suppose not since they would probably travel dressed in expensive "classy" clothes unlike the poorer,more desperate street prostitutes who have to dress for their market and catch the eye of the punters.

I suppose her style of dress would be "trashy" and the other not - even though they are engaged in the same activity?

So what does "trashy" really mean ? I think we should think carefully about the way we throw words around.


Oct 8, 12 11:00

DO NOT pull politically correctnes on me.... trashy is trashy, and regardless of what your interpretation of trashy looking is, the women I saw in that march were TRASHY TRASHY TRASHY..... no different from the attention whore gay men (I am gay) you see prancing around during gay pride with their hairy  middle aged butts exposed for everyone to see and dressed up in ridiculus leather outfits with a repulsive pink feathered scar blowing kisses and a t-shirt that reads (little kid, i want your daddy!!!) I've seen that!!  and then they pretend to represent the SELF-RESPECTING gay people around the world.... PLEASE!!!! 


a trashy looking person is NOT sexy.... sorry if you can't look beyond your bubble priviledged expat status here, but poverty has absolutely NOTHING to do with being sexy and classy....... you can be the cleaning lady for migros and still behave with class and manners and be sexy..... 


trash is trash, and to see a woman with a dress 4 times smaller than her size, barking at the world and saying she is proud of the fact she slept with so many she already lost count is NOTHING TO PRAISE!!!  if I had a daughter I would teach her to respect herself..... 


being a proud, emancipated, empowered woman has absolutely nothing to do with being a slut and being promiscuous!!! 


about the raping part, who said she deserved it? I said she should have had COMMON SENSE, dressing up like a prostitute and then venturing drunk into a dark toronto park at 2am is not exactly a very intelligent idea!!! it would be like me being shocked because I went to a swinger club and slept with ten people without protection and now I have an STD and then protesting and saying that I should have the right to go to a swinger bar and sleep with half the bar and come home without catching any STD!!!!  

The text you are quoting:

DO NOT pull politically correctnes on me.... trashy is trashy, and regardless of what your interpretation of trashy looking is, the women I saw in that march were TRASHY TRASHY TRASHY..... no different from the attention whore gay men (I am gay) you see prancing around during gay pride with their hairy  middle aged butts exposed for everyone to see and dressed up in ridiculus leather outfits with a repulsive pink feathered scar blowing kisses and a t-shirt that reads (little kid, i want your daddy!!!) I've seen that!!  and then they pretend to represent the SELF-RESPECTING gay people around the world.... PLEASE!!!! 


a trashy looking person is NOT sexy.... sorry if you can't look beyond your bubble priviledged expat status here, but poverty has absolutely NOTHING to do with being sexy and classy....... you can be the cleaning lady for migros and still behave with class and manners and be sexy..... 


trash is trash, and to see a woman with a dress 4 times smaller than her size, barking at the world and saying she is proud of the fact she slept with so many she already lost count is NOTHING TO PRAISE!!!  if I had a daughter I would teach her to respect herself..... 


being a proud, emancipated, empowered woman has absolutely nothing to do with being a slut and being promiscuous!!! 


about the raping part, who said she deserved it? I said she should have had COMMON SENSE, dressing up like a prostitute and then venturing drunk into a dark toronto park at 2am is not exactly a very intelligent idea!!! it would be like me being shocked because I went to a swinger club and slept with ten people without protection and now I have an STD and then protesting and saying that I should have the right to go to a swinger bar and sleep with half the bar and come home without catching any STD!!!!  


andy o, Oct 8, 2012 @ 12:49
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Fionnuala O, Oct 8, 2012 @ 12:56
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Post 190

I have ENORMOUS respect for the original first and second wave feminism, they truly emancipated women and taught them to be individualistic, independent, strong and proud of they are as women, apparently during the 90's the message was distorted and now they can't even get their message together.


 


on one side you have feminazis barking about porn actresses being morally wrong because they are being used by an industry that pays them more money than most professionals make in a year.... yet on the other side you have other feminazis barking about women's right to be sluts and dress as sluts because it's empowering!!!  so what is it?


 


see? to me is just people with a chip on their shoulders barking too much!!!


 


the real feminists I've met throughout my life are all fantastic mothers, excellent professionals and workers and very respectable women.... none of this i am a slut and proud of it trash!!

The text you are quoting:

I have ENORMOUS respect for the original first and second wave feminism, they truly emancipated women and taught them to be individualistic, independent, strong and proud of they are as women, apparently during the 90's the message was distorted and now they can't even get their message together.


 


on one side you have feminazis barking about porn actresses being morally wrong because they are being used by an industry that pays them more money than most professionals make in a year.... yet on the other side you have other feminazis barking about women's right to be sluts and dress as sluts because it's empowering!!!  so what is it?


 


see? to me is just people with a chip on their shoulders barking too much!!!


 


the real feminists I've met throughout my life are all fantastic mothers, excellent professionals and workers and very respectable women.... none of this i am a slut and proud of it trash!!


andy o, Oct 8, 2012 @ 13:04
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Post 191

DO NOT pull politically correctnes on me.... trashy is trashy, and regardless of what your interpretation of trashy looking is, the women I saw in that march were TRASHY TRASHY TRASHY..... no different from the attention whore gay men (I am gay) you see prancing around during gay pride with their hairy  middle aged butts exposed for everyone to see and dressed up in ridiculus leather outfits with a repulsive pink feathered scar blowing kisses and a t-shirt that reads (little kid, i want your daddy!!!) I've seen that!!  and then they pretend to represent the SELF-RESPECTING gay people around the world.... PLEASE!!!! 

a trashy looking person is NOT sexy.... sorry if you can't look beyond your bubble priviledged expat status here, but poverty has absolutely NOTHING to do with being sexy and classy....... you can be the cleaning lady for migros and still behave with class and manners and be sexy..... 

trash is trash, and to see a woman with a dress 4 times smaller than her size, barking at the world and saying she is proud of the fact she slept with so many she already lost count is NOTHING TO PRAISE!!!  if I had a daughter I would teach her to respect herself..... 

being a proud, emancipated, empowered woman has absolutely nothing to do with being a slut and being promiscuous!!! 

about the raping part, who said she deserved it? I said she should have had COMMON SENSE, dressing up like a prostitute and then venturing drunk into a dark toronto park at 2am is not exactly a very intelligent idea!!! it would be like me being shocked because I went to a swinger club and slept with ten people without protection and now I have an STD and then protesting and saying that I should have the right to go to a swinger bar and sleep with half the bar and come home without catching any STD!!!!  


Oct 8, 12 12:49

Well,so nice that we women have people to speak for us on our behalf.....


(and,by the way,don't assume anything about ex-pat priveliged status - you know nothing of the histories of everyone on here.)

The text you are quoting:

Well,so nice that we women have people to speak for us on our behalf.....


(and,by the way,don't assume anything about ex-pat priveliged status - you know nothing of the histories of everyone on here.)


buzzcocks, Oct 8, 2012 @ 13:08
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Post 192

I speak for all women as much as u do, you're just ONE woman.....


 


 

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I speak for all women as much as u do, you're just ONE woman.....


 


 


andy o, Oct 8, 2012 @ 13:22
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Post 193

DO NOT pull politically correctnes on me.... trashy is trashy, and regardless of what your interpretation of trashy looking is, the women I saw in that march were TRASHY TRASHY TRASHY..... no different from the attention whore gay men (I am gay) you see prancing around during gay pride with their hairy  middle aged butts exposed for everyone to see and dressed up in ridiculus leather outfits with a repulsive pink feathered scar blowing kisses and a t-shirt that reads (little kid, i want your daddy!!!) I've seen that!!  and then they pretend to represent the SELF-RESPECTING gay people around the world.... PLEASE!!!! 

a trashy looking person is NOT sexy.... sorry if you can't look beyond your bubble priviledged expat status here, but poverty has absolutely NOTHING to do with being sexy and classy....... you can be the cleaning lady for migros and still behave with class and manners and be sexy..... 

trash is trash, and to see a woman with a dress 4 times smaller than her size, barking at the world and saying she is proud of the fact she slept with so many she already lost count is NOTHING TO PRAISE!!!  if I had a daughter I would teach her to respect herself..... 

being a proud, emancipated, empowered woman has absolutely nothing to do with being a slut and being promiscuous!!! 

about the raping part, who said she deserved it? I said she should have had COMMON SENSE, dressing up like a prostitute and then venturing drunk into a dark toronto park at 2am is not exactly a very intelligent idea!!! it would be like me being shocked because I went to a swinger club and slept with ten people without protection and now I have an STD and then protesting and saying that I should have the right to go to a swinger bar and sleep with half the bar and come home without catching any STD!!!!  


Oct 8, 12 12:49

Some of your points I have to agree with here. Trashy looking is sure not sexy, the same as the Gay men prancing round semi naked pretending to be respectable is not doing anything for the Gay cause. NO woman deserves to be raped in ANY circumstances ,and yes NO is NO. However if put your self in danger, then danger is what you get. There is no responsibility like SELF Responsibilty for your own actions. We all can dress as we please and act as we please, but there is always a perception by others of this. As long as your happy with other peoples perception of you, or as long as you do NOT care about other peoples perceptions, then do as you please :) Live your life and enjoy, but dont expect everyone else to enjoy it as much as you :)

The text you are quoting:

Some of your points I have to agree with here. Trashy looking is sure not sexy, the same as the Gay men prancing round semi naked pretending to be respectable is not doing anything for the Gay cause. NO woman deserves to be raped in ANY circumstances ,and yes NO is NO. However if put your self in danger, then danger is what you get. There is no responsibility like SELF Responsibilty for your own actions. We all can dress as we please and act as we please, but there is always a perception by others of this. As long as your happy with other peoples perception of you, or as long as you do NOT care about other peoples perceptions, then do as you please :) Live your life and enjoy, but dont expect everyone else to enjoy it as much as you :)


Karl N, Oct 8, 2012 @ 13:07
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Post 194

Some of your points I have to agree with here. Trashy looking is sure not sexy, the same as the Gay men prancing round semi naked pretending to be respectable is not doing anything for the Gay cause. NO woman deserves to be raped in ANY circumstances ,and yes NO is NO. However if put your self in danger, then danger is what you get. There is no responsibility like SELF Responsibilty for your own actions. We all can dress as we please and act as we please, but there is always a perception by others of this. As long as your happy with other peoples perception of you, or as long as you do NOT care about other peoples perceptions, then do as you please :) Live your life and enjoy, but dont expect everyone else to enjoy it as much as you :)


Oct 8, 12 13:07

that's exactly what i mean.....  dress as u wish, live as u wish.... it's your life, not mine!!!


however dont try to shove down my throat the fact that because u as a woman or as a man sleep with tons of people then i need to think you are super empowered, modern and super strong.....


i'll just think you're probably lonely, a mental case and with horrible self-esteem and can't keep a stable serious relationship.


sorry if i come across as harsh but i lack a pc bone in my body and i say what i think.

The text you are quoting:

that's exactly what i mean.....  dress as u wish, live as u wish.... it's your life, not mine!!!


however dont try to shove down my throat the fact that because u as a woman or as a man sleep with tons of people then i need to think you are super empowered, modern and super strong.....


i'll just think you're probably lonely, a mental case and with horrible self-esteem and can't keep a stable serious relationship.


sorry if i come across as harsh but i lack a pc bone in my body and i say what i think.


andy o, Oct 8, 2012 @ 13:26
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Post 195

I have ENORMOUS respect for the original first and second wave feminism, they truly emancipated women and taught them to be individualistic, independent, strong and proud of they are as women, apparently during the 90's the message was distorted and now they can't even get their message together.

 

on one side you have feminazis barking about porn actresses being morally wrong because they are being used by an industry that pays them more money than most professionals make in a year.... yet on the other side you have other feminazis barking about women's right to be sluts and dress as sluts because it's empowering!!!  so what is it?

 

see? to me is just people with a chip on their shoulders barking too much!!!

 

the real feminists I've met throughout my life are all fantastic mothers, excellent professionals and workers and very respectable women.... none of this i am a slut and proud of it trash!!


Oct 8, 12 13:04

I'm afraid that I'm deserting the sister-hood here and agreeing with almost everything andy o says.  I also don't think people would be so quick to shoot him down in flames if his chicken photo was accompanied by a name like "fluffybunnykins" and his gender was unknown.


A definition of "trash" (trashy being the adjective to describe) reads "of low quality with little or no value".  


From the photos I've seen of several "slutwalks" around the world, the women marching appear to place little "value" or "quality" on their appearence, their sense of dignity, their self-respect, or how they measure decency.  


In doing so, advertising themselves as "sluts", and by putting themselves in the limelight, they are taking the limelight away from the real issue of rape and how rape offenders are dealt with (or not, as is more usual).


I'd be far more supportive AND respectful if they took the whole "slut" element out, wore their normal clothes and directed their energies to finding real solutions to an ongoing problem.


They could start by being a little more selective about thier boyfriends - seeing as how one poster read "Like 52% of victims my abuser was my boyfriend".


I'm sorry - but that really does deserve a WTF?????

The text you are quoting:

I'm afraid that I'm deserting the sister-hood here and agreeing with almost everything andy o says.  I also don't think people would be so quick to shoot him down in flames if his chicken photo was accompanied by a name like "fluffybunnykins" and his gender was unknown.


A definition of "trash" (trashy being the adjective to describe) reads "of low quality with little or no value".  


From the photos I've seen of several "slutwalks" around the world, the women marching appear to place little "value" or "quality" on their appearence, their sense of dignity, their self-respect, or how they measure decency.  


In doing so, advertising themselves as "sluts", and by putting themselves in the limelight, they are taking the limelight away from the real issue of rape and how rape offenders are dealt with (or not, as is more usual).


I'd be far more supportive AND respectful if they took the whole "slut" element out, wore their normal clothes and directed their energies to finding real solutions to an ongoing problem.


They could start by being a little more selective about thier boyfriends - seeing as how one poster read "Like 52% of victims my abuser was my boyfriend".


I'm sorry - but that really does deserve a WTF?????


Carolyn C, Oct 8, 2012 @ 13:20
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Post 196

Valid for all Genders, Race ,Creeds, in other words EVERY Human Being on the planet. Cool



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Valid for all Genders, Race ,Creeds, in other words EVERY Human Being on the planet. Cool


Karl N, Oct 8, 2012 @ 14:01
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Post 197

Ok-let's get back to the core of this.


1.Jarvis Cocker once criticized the Spice Girls and the whole hijacking of feminism by commenting that it was like saying to the world "I can get my tits out if I want to" - as a kind of defiance - but that there was no defiance there because"well,that's what men want anyway"


2.Many women-mysel included - are not so sure that walking around in your underwear and fishnet stockings is the best way to defend women's rights.


HOWEVER -it all goes back to the basic idea that other people decide what women should or shouldn't wear and that,if they wear some of the "shouldn'ts" they should not complain about being attacked or harrassed.This is just wrong - and it's been well argued and explained by people more eloquent than myself earlier on this thread.


It was once explained to me that the Muslim arguement about why women have to be covered up is that "men cannot control themselves".Sounds familiar?

The text you are quoting:

Ok-let's get back to the core of this.


1.Jarvis Cocker once criticized the Spice Girls and the whole hijacking of feminism by commenting that it was like saying to the world "I can get my tits out if I want to" - as a kind of defiance - but that there was no defiance there because"well,that's what men want anyway"


2.Many women-mysel included - are not so sure that walking around in your underwear and fishnet stockings is the best way to defend women's rights.


HOWEVER -it all goes back to the basic idea that other people decide what women should or shouldn't wear and that,if they wear some of the "shouldn'ts" they should not complain about being attacked or harrassed.This is just wrong - and it's been well argued and explained by people more eloquent than myself earlier on this thread.


It was once explained to me that the Muslim arguement about why women have to be covered up is that "men cannot control themselves".Sounds familiar?


buzzcocks, Oct 8, 2012 @ 13:57
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Post 198

Valid for all Genders, Race ,Creeds, in other words EVERY Human Being on the planet. Cool


Oct 8, 12 14:01

Yeah - but somehow if I go out late at night in a mini skirt-my choices might get made for meUndecided

The text you are quoting:

Yeah - but somehow if I go out late at night in a mini skirt-my choices might get made for meUndecided


buzzcocks, Oct 8, 2012 @ 14:06
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Post 199

Obama has some issues with this thread :-)


 



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Obama has some issues with this thread :-)


 


martin, Oct 8, 2012 @ 14:05
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Post 200

Obama has some issues with this thread :-)

 


Oct 8, 12 14:05

Don't worry - fellow forum writers will probably tell you he's just sexually frustrated .......Cool

The text you are quoting:

Don't worry - fellow forum writers will probably tell you he's just sexually frustrated .......Cool


buzzcocks, Oct 8, 2012 @ 14:11
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Post 201

Ok-let's get back to the core of this.

1.Jarvis Cocker once criticized the Spice Girls and the whole hijacking of feminism by commenting that it was like saying to the world "I can get my tits out if I want to" - as a kind of defiance - but that there was no defiance there because"well,that's what men want anyway"

2.Many women-mysel included - are not so sure that walking around in your underwear and fishnet stockings is the best way to defend women's rights.

HOWEVER -it all goes back to the basic idea that other people decide what women should or shouldn't wear and that,if they wear some of the "shouldn'ts" they should not complain about being attacked or harrassed.This is just wrong - and it's been well argued and explained by people more eloquent than myself earlier on this thread.

It was once explained to me that the Muslim arguement about why women have to be covered up is that "men cannot control themselves".Sounds familiar?


Oct 8, 12 13:57

Your quote that other people decide what women should or shouldnt wear, is a perception that preticipates the myth, that women cant do what they want. THEY CAN AND DO, do what they want. Some societies still live in the past, and yes then the decision is taken away from them. Again its down to an individuals perception of what it means. Change your perception of you and you change your life. The idea that muslim women have to be covered up comes NOT from the idea that men cannot control themselves. It comes from the perception that it protects them from the DESIRE of other men. And like all things hidden it is human nature to find out what is hidden. Men CAN and DO control themselves, it is only a minority that cannot. It is this minority that FEEDs the Feminist and Gay movements.

The text you are quoting:

Your quote that other people decide what women should or shouldnt wear, is a perception that preticipates the myth, that women cant do what they want. THEY CAN AND DO, do what they want. Some societies still live in the past, and yes then the decision is taken away from them. Again its down to an individuals perception of what it means. Change your perception of you and you change your life. The idea that muslim women have to be covered up comes NOT from the idea that men cannot control themselves. It comes from the perception that it protects them from the DESIRE of other men. And like all things hidden it is human nature to find out what is hidden. Men CAN and DO control themselves, it is only a minority that cannot. It is this minority that FEEDs the Feminist and Gay movements.


Karl N, Oct 8, 2012 @ 14:14
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Post 202

Yeah - but somehow if I go out late at night in a mini skirt-my choices might get made for meUndecided


Oct 8, 12 14:06

Then I wold ask you , how many times have you gone out wearing a mini skirt, and had your choices made for you ?

The text you are quoting:

Then I wold ask you , how many times have you gone out wearing a mini skirt, and had your choices made for you ?


Karl N, Oct 8, 2012 @ 14:21
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Post 203

Then I wold ask you , how many times have you gone out wearing a mini skirt, and had your choices made for you ?


Oct 8, 12 14:21

It hasn't happened to me personally....derr... I'm referring to the notion that,if a woman dresses in a certain way,she shouln't complain if she is harrassed,whatever.It's like saying she abdicates her right to be allowed to go on her way in peace - which seems to me to be an unjustifiable argument.


It's the kind of argument often used in court in cases of assault - see the comment above about women in jeans in the context of rape cases.

The text you are quoting:

It hasn't happened to me personally....derr... I'm referring to the notion that,if a woman dresses in a certain way,she shouln't complain if she is harrassed,whatever.It's like saying she abdicates her right to be allowed to go on her way in peace - which seems to me to be an unjustifiable argument.


It's the kind of argument often used in court in cases of assault - see the comment above about women in jeans in the context of rape cases.


buzzcocks, Oct 8, 2012 @ 14:23
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Post 204

Yeah - but somehow if I go out late at night in a mini skirt-my choices might get made for meUndecided


Oct 8, 12 14:06

You mean - "but somehow if I CHOOSE to go out late at night in a mini-skirt....." (fill in the dots).


(Sorry luv, you walked right into that one!).


But I say again - to put all the emphasis on clothing and protest dressed as "sluts" is all wrong.  


Rape is a by-product of so many components.  Primarily being with the wrong person at the wrong time or being in the wrong place at the wrong time and yes, wearing the wrong clothes in the wrong place and at the wrong time.


A lot of the above can be made by personal choice - some of it from genuine bad luck, but certainly not all of it just from wearing the wrong clothes.

The text you are quoting:

You mean - "but somehow if I CHOOSE to go out late at night in a mini-skirt....." (fill in the dots).


(Sorry luv, you walked right into that one!).


But I say again - to put all the emphasis on clothing and protest dressed as "sluts" is all wrong.  


Rape is a by-product of so many components.  Primarily being with the wrong person at the wrong time or being in the wrong place at the wrong time and yes, wearing the wrong clothes in the wrong place and at the wrong time.


A lot of the above can be made by personal choice - some of it from genuine bad luck, but certainly not all of it just from wearing the wrong clothes.


Carolyn C, Oct 8, 2012 @ 14:18
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Post 205

The idea that muslim women have to be covered up comes NOT from the idea that men cannot control themselves. It comes from the perception that it protects them from the DESIRE of other men. - Karl N




Comes down to the same thing,doesn't it-i mean when you really think about it?The responsibility comes down on the woman.

The text you are quoting:

The idea that muslim women have to be covered up comes NOT from the idea that men cannot control themselves. It comes from the perception that it protects them from the DESIRE of other men. - Karl N




Comes down to the same thing,doesn't it-i mean when you really think about it?The responsibility comes down on the woman.


buzzcocks, Oct 8, 2012 @ 14:27
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The idea that muslim women have to be covered up comes NOT from the idea that men cannot control themselves. It comes from the perception that it protects them from the DESIRE of other men. - Karl N


Comes down to the same thing,doesn't it-i mean when you really think about it?The responsibility comes down on the woman.


Oct 8, 12 14:27

NOt in this case no, the responsibility is taken away from the woman, and made by her Male members of her family and by there religion... and there is a huge difference between men who cannot control themselves, and men having desire !! again a misconception that all men cannot control themselves, because of a minority of men who cant

The text you are quoting:

NOt in this case no, the responsibility is taken away from the woman, and made by her Male members of her family and by there religion... and there is a huge difference between men who cannot control themselves, and men having desire !! again a misconception that all men cannot control themselves, because of a minority of men who cant


Karl N, Oct 8, 2012 @ 14:31
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Post 207

NOt in this case no, the responsibility is taken away from the woman, and made by her Male members of her family and by there religion... and there is a huge difference between men who cannot control themselves, and men having desire !! again a misconception that all men cannot control themselves, because of a minority of men who cant


Oct 8, 12 14:31

Yes,but the fact that the WOMAN MUST BE COVERED is putting the responsibility on her.


By the way,the explaination I quote was given to me by two muslim men(very sincere and very admirable religious men ,not at all extremist.Maybe they got it wrong)

The text you are quoting:

Yes,but the fact that the WOMAN MUST BE COVERED is putting the responsibility on her.


By the way,the explaination I quote was given to me by two muslim men(very sincere and very admirable religious men ,not at all extremist.Maybe they got it wrong)


buzzcocks, Oct 8, 2012 @ 14:35
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Post 208

It hasn't happened to me personally....derr... I'm referring to the notion that,if a woman dresses in a certain way,she shouln't complain if she is harrassed,whatever.It's like saying she abdicates her right to be allowed to go on her way in peace - which seems to me to be an unjustifiable argument.

It's the kind of argument often used in court in cases of assault - see the comment above about women in jeans in the context of rape cases.


Oct 8, 12 14:23

If it hasnt happened to you, then its only a perception that it might, I might have the same ridiculous perception that if i go outside the sky will fall down on me !! The chances are less i admit, but again far removed from reality ... reality is that many women get attacked and raped by men who cannot control there desires. reality is that MILLIONS of women go out dressed as they wish and NEVER get attacked. You see it works both ways dependant on your preception. If your perception is that it is likely to happen, then it IS likely, If your perception is that it is Likely NOT to happen then it is likely that it wont :)

The text you are quoting:

If it hasnt happened to you, then its only a perception that it might, I might have the same ridiculous perception that if i go outside the sky will fall down on me !! The chances are less i admit, but again far removed from reality ... reality is that many women get attacked and raped by men who cannot control there desires. reality is that MILLIONS of women go out dressed as they wish and NEVER get attacked. You see it works both ways dependant on your preception. If your perception is that it is likely to happen, then it IS likely, If your perception is that it is Likely NOT to happen then it is likely that it wont :)


Karl N, Oct 8, 2012 @ 14:34
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 209

The idea that muslim women have to be covered up comes NOT from the idea that men cannot control themselves. It comes from the perception that it protects them from the DESIRE of other men. - Karl N


Comes down to the same thing,doesn't it-i mean when you really think about it?The responsibility comes down on the woman.


Oct 8, 12 14:27

I find that actually quite insulting - it implies that every time I see a woman Muslim Woman, she actually says " you can't behave yourself so I dress like this".


I'm calling for a protest against this. Calling all man, let's burn some flags - rage through a couple of ambassies etc.etc.


Just saying... I hope it's good for you girls to know that 98pct of the men out are not out to rape, insult or otherwise create clothing issues :-)


 

The text you are quoting:

I find that actually quite insulting - it implies that every time I see a woman Muslim Woman, she actually says " you can't behave yourself so I dress like this".


I'm calling for a protest against this. Calling all man, let's burn some flags - rage through a couple of ambassies etc.etc.


Just saying... I hope it's good for you girls to know that 98pct of the men out are not out to rape, insult or otherwise create clothing issues :-)


 


martin, Oct 8, 2012 @ 14:33
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 210

I find that actually quite insulting - it implies that every time I see a woman Muslim Woman, she actually says " you can't behave yourself so I dress like this".

I'm calling for a protest against this. Calling all man, let's burn some flags - rage through a couple of ambassies etc.etc.

Just saying... I hope it's good for you girls to know that 98pct of the men out are not out to rape, insult or otherwise create clothing issues :-)

 


Oct 8, 12 14:33

Well martin,go and tell that to the numerous churches in the South of Italy,where I am looked upon badly if I go in without covering my bare arms in my summer vest top because,when I ask,I am told it is "disrespectful".


Go figure

The text you are quoting:

Well martin,go and tell that to the numerous churches in the South of Italy,where I am looked upon badly if I go in without covering my bare arms in my summer vest top because,when I ask,I am told it is "disrespectful".


Go figure


buzzcocks, Oct 8, 2012 @ 14:40
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 211

Well martin,go and tell that to the numerous churches in the South of Italy,where I am looked upon badly if I go in without covering my bare arms in my summer vest top because,when I ask,I am told it is "disrespectful".

Go figure


Oct 8, 12 14:40

It seems to me your looking for excuses to support your argument. All women entering any catholic have to cover there arms out of respect for the church, this has nothing to do with a SLUT walk. Or anything to do with women being less than men. Men are also required to be covered, the same disrespect is shown by men wearing shorts, or shirts without sleeves. It is out of respect for the CHURCH and GOD that you are required to be modestly covered in a house of God. The same rules apply in a mosque or ANY other religious building.

The text you are quoting:

It seems to me your looking for excuses to support your argument. All women entering any catholic have to cover there arms out of respect for the church, this has nothing to do with a SLUT walk. Or anything to do with women being less than men. Men are also required to be covered, the same disrespect is shown by men wearing shorts, or shirts without sleeves. It is out of respect for the CHURCH and GOD that you are required to be modestly covered in a house of God. The same rules apply in a mosque or ANY other religious building.


Karl N, Oct 8, 2012 @ 14:45
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 212

Well martin,go and tell that to the numerous churches in the South of Italy,where I am looked upon badly if I go in without covering my bare arms in my summer vest top because,when I ask,I am told it is "disrespectful".

Go figure


Oct 8, 12 14:40

I am afraid one will find that anywhere. However - on the other hand that's their local culture I guess. I noticed the same thing living in the Middle East for a year.  
One is at their turf - I only takes a little effort to cover yourself since you are at their Turf. This doesn't however imply I agree with it! 


My wife however found out it makes life a lot easier when one covers up slightly - it's not by choise, however adjusting slightly let us make friends with a lot of the middle eastern locals. If she would have dressed herself like some of the tourists do - you get at least "frowned upon". But we are drifting off the original subject - to which I can only agree to. But we are drifing off topic here....

The text you are quoting:

I am afraid one will find that anywhere. However - on the other hand that's their local culture I guess. I noticed the same thing living in the Middle East for a year.  
One is at their turf - I only takes a little effort to cover yourself since you are at their Turf. This doesn't however imply I agree with it! 


My wife however found out it makes life a lot easier when one covers up slightly - it's not by choise, however adjusting slightly let us make friends with a lot of the middle eastern locals. If she would have dressed herself like some of the tourists do - you get at least "frowned upon". But we are drifting off the original subject - to which I can only agree to. But we are drifing off topic here....


martin, Oct 8, 2012 @ 14:45
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 213

It seems to me your looking for excuses to support your argument. All women entering any catholic have to cover there arms out of respect for the church, this has nothing to do with a SLUT walk. Or anything to do with women being less than men. Men are also required to be covered, the same disrespect is shown by men wearing shorts, or shirts without sleeves. It is out of respect for the CHURCH and GOD that you are required to be modestly covered in a house of God. The same rules apply in a mosque or ANY other religious building.


Oct 8, 12 14:45

Yes,you're right about the rules applying to men.I'd forgotten that.


Yes.I agree,I agree.Wow,that feels strange!!!


However........as an ex-catholic I can remember the way modesty was drummed into us girls - and how women had to cover their heads in church .It is generally the case that women are expected to be covered in some way- in many religions -more than the men areSmileCome on-you can't get away from that,surely?


And as for "respect" for "god" - why would the god who made those bodies find them disrespectful?

The text you are quoting:

Yes,you're right about the rules applying to men.I'd forgotten that.


Yes.I agree,I agree.Wow,that feels strange!!!


However........as an ex-catholic I can remember the way modesty was drummed into us girls - and how women had to cover their heads in church .It is generally the case that women are expected to be covered in some way- in many religions -more than the men areSmileCome on-you can't get away from that,surely?


And as for "respect" for "god" - why would the god who made those bodies find them disrespectful?


buzzcocks, Oct 8, 2012 @ 14:54
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 214

In the era of political correctness, where even wishing some a merry christmas is offensive...... is still somehow ok to think all men are sex starved pigs that lose their minds as soon as they see a woman.


reality is, most guys I know who are straight as an arrow, wouldn't even touch a lot of those women in those marches with a ten inch pole!!!


 


 


 

The text you are quoting:

In the era of political correctness, where even wishing some a merry christmas is offensive...... is still somehow ok to think all men are sex starved pigs that lose their minds as soon as they see a woman.


reality is, most guys I know who are straight as an arrow, wouldn't even touch a lot of those women in those marches with a ten inch pole!!!


 


 


 


andy o, Oct 8, 2012 @ 14:48
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 215

Yes,you're right about the rules applying to men.I'd forgotten that.

Yes.I agree,I agree.Wow,that feels strange!!!

However........as an ex-catholic I can remember the way modesty was drummed into us girls - and how women had to cover their heads in church .It is generally the case that women are expected to be covered in some way- in many religions -more than the men areSmileCome on-you can't get away from that,surely?

And as for "respect" for "god" - why would the god who made those bodies find them disrespectful?


Oct 8, 12 14:54

For once im in agreement with you here. I was brought up with more religions than i care to mention. All of them are about POWER over people.


NO God would find any bodies disrespectful .. then again no GOD of love would order people to KILL MAIM or RAPE another either. So lets not get of topic here :)

The text you are quoting:

For once im in agreement with you here. I was brought up with more religions than i care to mention. All of them are about POWER over people.


NO God would find any bodies disrespectful .. then again no GOD of love would order people to KILL MAIM or RAPE another either. So lets not get of topic here :)


Karl N, Oct 8, 2012 @ 15:01
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 216

lets get back to the OP topic now. let's start an other thread on clothing:


 


 



The text you are quoting:

lets get back to the OP topic now. let's start an other thread on clothing:


 


 


martin, Oct 8, 2012 @ 15:13
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 217

is still somehow ok to think all men are sex starved pigs that lose their minds as soon as they see a woman. -Martin


Nobody has said this - as far as I am aware.It's not what people are saying.


The aruments are all getting all mixed up here.It's an issue that has many strands,all connected


 


I think Izzie's idea of moving the discussion to Café Philo is far more sensible.

The text you are quoting:

is still somehow ok to think all men are sex starved pigs that lose their minds as soon as they see a woman. -Martin


Nobody has said this - as far as I am aware.It's not what people are saying.


The aruments are all getting all mixed up here.It's an issue that has many strands,all connected


 


I think Izzie's idea of moving the discussion to Café Philo is far more sensible.


buzzcocks, Oct 8, 2012 @ 15:12
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 218

lets get back to the OP topic now. let's start an other thread on clothing:

 

 


Oct 8, 12 15:13

Who says they look cool? "Cool"is in the eye of the beholder.


I think they look like ******sLaughing

The text you are quoting:

Who says they look cool? "Cool"is in the eye of the beholder.


I think they look like ******sLaughing


buzzcocks, Oct 8, 2012 @ 15:16
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 219

lets get back to the OP topic now. let's start an other thread on clothing:

 

 


Oct 8, 12 15:13

Your second name isn't Charlie by any chance?


 

The text you are quoting:

Your second name isn't Charlie by any chance?


 


buzzcocks, Oct 8, 2012 @ 15:18
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 220

is still somehow ok to think all men are sex starved pigs that lose their minds as soon as they see a woman. -Martin

Nobody has said this - as far as I am aware.It's not what people are saying.

The aruments are all getting all mixed up here.It's an issue that has many strands,all connected

 

I think Izzie's idea of moving the discussion to Café Philo is far more sensible.


Oct 8, 12 15:12

Is there a dress code? Laughing

The text you are quoting:

Is there a dress code? Laughing


Rich, Oct 8, 2012 @ 15:22
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 221

Is there a dress code? Laughing


Oct 8, 12 15:22

Yes - wear your brain and don't be afraid to show it(but not in a slutty way)

The text you are quoting:

Yes - wear your brain and don't be afraid to show it(but not in a slutty way)


buzzcocks, Oct 8, 2012 @ 15:30
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 222

Is there a dress code? Laughing


Oct 8, 12 15:22

Just to prevent any issues: I'd say all the girls come like this. That way us man don't get the wrong ideas, everybody is happy, and you can walk safely to the train station. Now back to the OP!!! this thread is de-railing. 



The text you are quoting:

Just to prevent any issues: I'd say all the girls come like this. That way us man don't get the wrong ideas, everybody is happy, and you can walk safely to the train station. Now back to the OP!!! this thread is de-railing. 


martin, Oct 8, 2012 @ 15:25
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 223

Yes - wear your brain and don't be afraid to show it(but not in a slutty way)


Oct 8, 12 15:30

Damn! If that's what I need to wear I'll be severely underdressed!

The text you are quoting:

Damn! If that's what I need to wear I'll be severely underdressed!


Rich, Oct 8, 2012 @ 15:31
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 224

Yes - wear your brain and don't be afraid to show it(but not in a slutty way)


Oct 8, 12 15:30

Rich and a brain... Good luck with that....



The text you are quoting:

Rich and a brain... Good luck with that....


martin, Oct 8, 2012 @ 15:32
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 225

Just to prevent any issues: I'd say all the girls come like this. That way us man don't get the wrong ideas, everybody is happy, and you can walk safely to the train station. Now back to the OP!!! this thread is de-railing. 


Oct 8, 12 15:25

NO - far too sexy- I mean,look at those eyes.....

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NO - far too sexy- I mean,look at those eyes.....


buzzcocks, Oct 8, 2012 @ 15:35
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 226

Rich and a brain... Good luck with that....


Oct 8, 12 15:32

Very funny Burka boy! Laughing

The text you are quoting:

Very funny Burka boy! Laughing


Rich, Oct 8, 2012 @ 15:37
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 227

In the 17th and 18th century women used to wear long dresses that covered there ankles. Mens head were turned by the sight of a pretty ankle, now women dress and show everything in the name of looking sexy. More is less in my opinion. Less isnt particularly sexy, even though it does manage to turn most mens heads.


How a woman dresses is up to her, the respect she gets comes from the way she acts and behaves not from how provocatvie she is dressed. The respect she FEELS comes from inside her, no matter how she dresses.

The text you are quoting:

In the 17th and 18th century women used to wear long dresses that covered there ankles. Mens head were turned by the sight of a pretty ankle, now women dress and show everything in the name of looking sexy. More is less in my opinion. Less isnt particularly sexy, even though it does manage to turn most mens heads.


How a woman dresses is up to her, the respect she gets comes from the way she acts and behaves not from how provocatvie she is dressed. The respect she FEELS comes from inside her, no matter how she dresses.


Karl N, Oct 8, 2012 @ 15:48
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 228

is still somehow ok to think all men are sex starved pigs that lose their minds as soon as they see a woman. -Martin

Nobody has said this - as far as I am aware.It's not what people are saying.

The aruments are all getting all mixed up here.It's an issue that has many strands,all connected

 

I think Izzie's idea of moving the discussion to Café Philo is far more sensible.


Oct 8, 12 15:12

Actually it was not my idea but a very good one nonetheless... thank you very much to who sent it to me in a message I found in my mailbox this morning Wink


Dress code Rich? it's usually very hot in that room... but it's up to you Laughing

The text you are quoting:

Actually it was not my idea but a very good one nonetheless... thank you very much to who sent it to me in a message I found in my mailbox this morning Wink


Dress code Rich? it's usually very hot in that room... but it's up to you Laughing


Izzie, Oct 8, 2012 @ 15:50
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 229

Though I mainly agree with you Karl, there are some differences. It's in the end in the eye of the beholder. What for some is offensive, is for others called sexy - or as it started - slutty. That doesn't take away the fact that everybody, should be free to wear what he or she wants, but, however, I guess it's the same with freedom of speech. We can say what we want (or wear what we want), but what sounds totally ok to us - might be highly offensive to others. should we limit freedom of speech? Never! Should somebody wear what they like! Yeah for sure. Nodbody should be raped because of what they wear. Never. 
Every human being deserves respect, regardless of what they wear, or how they look IMHO 

The text you are quoting:

Though I mainly agree with you Karl, there are some differences. It's in the end in the eye of the beholder. What for some is offensive, is for others called sexy - or as it started - slutty. That doesn't take away the fact that everybody, should be free to wear what he or she wants, but, however, I guess it's the same with freedom of speech. We can say what we want (or wear what we want), but what sounds totally ok to us - might be highly offensive to others. should we limit freedom of speech? Never! Should somebody wear what they like! Yeah for sure. Nodbody should be raped because of what they wear. Never. 
Every human being deserves respect, regardless of what they wear, or how they look IMHO 


martin, Oct 8, 2012 @ 15:57
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 230

Times they are a-changing.  When I went "t'disco" dressed like this (come on - it was the 80's) my mum would drag me back with a "You're not going out dressed like THAT - you'll catch your death!".....


The text you are quoting:

Times they are a-changing.  When I went "t'disco" dressed like this (come on - it was the 80's) my mum would drag me back with a "You're not going out dressed like THAT - you'll catch your death!".....



Carolyn C, Oct 8, 2012 @ 15:48
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Post 231

Actually it was not my idea but a very good one nonetheless... thank you very much to who sent it to me in a message I found in my mailbox this morning Wink

Dress code Rich? it's usually very hot in that room... but it's up to you Laughing


Oct 8, 12 15:50

Are you sure Izzie, you know what Rich does for a living right?


 



The text you are quoting:

Are you sure Izzie, you know what Rich does for a living right?


 


martin, Oct 8, 2012 @ 16:20
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Post 232

Ha ha ha!!!! Brilliant!!

The text you are quoting:

Ha ha ha!!!! Brilliant!!


buzzcocks, Oct 8, 2012 @ 16:35
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 233

Times they are a-changing.  When I went "t'disco" dressed like this (come on - it was the 80's) my mum would drag me back with a "You're not going out dressed like THAT - you'll catch your death!".....


Oct 8, 12 15:48

Hey carolyn....is that really you then?like,back in your heyday?No wonder your mum was worried....

The text you are quoting:

Hey carolyn....is that really you then?like,back in your heyday?No wonder your mum was worried....


buzzcocks, Oct 8, 2012 @ 16:36
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Post 234

Are you sure Izzie, you know what Rich does for a living right?

 


Oct 8, 12 16:20

Actually I think this one looks more like me. (Why couldn't I have ended up looking like Brad Pitt instead!)



The text you are quoting:

Actually I think this one looks more like me. (Why couldn't I have ended up looking like Brad Pitt instead!)


Rich, Oct 8, 2012 @ 16:35
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Post 235

Times they are a-changing.  When I went "t'disco" dressed like this (come on - it was the 80's) my mum would drag me back with a "You're not going out dressed like THAT - you'll catch your death!".....


Oct 8, 12 15:48

That would be an idea of an evening Caro! The theme could be "Dress as in your teenage years" Laughing


I can just picture you dressed like in the photo...


I was more the gothic type with doc martens...  Times are a-changing indeed Wink





The text you are quoting:

That would be an idea of an evening Caro! The theme could be "Dress as in your teenage years" Laughing


I can just picture you dressed like in the photo...


I was more the gothic type with doc martens...  Times are a-changing indeed Wink


Izzie, Oct 8, 2012 @ 16:26
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Post 236

Hey carolyn....is that really you then?like,back in your heyday?No wonder your mum was worried....


Oct 8, 12 16:36

Where I went,people looked a bit like this


I mean- slutty or what?



The text you are quoting:

Where I went,people looked a bit like this


I mean- slutty or what?


buzzcocks, Oct 8, 2012 @ 16:41
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Post 237

Though I mainly agree with you Karl, there are some differences. It's in the end in the eye of the beholder. What for some is offensive, is for others called sexy - or as it started - slutty. That doesn't take away the fact that everybody, should be free to wear what he or she wants, but, however, I guess it's the same with freedom of speech. We can say what we want (or wear what we want), but what sounds totally ok to us - might be highly offensive to others. should we limit freedom of speech? Never! Should somebody wear what they like! Yeah for sure. Nodbody should be raped because of what they wear. Never. 
Every human being deserves respect, regardless of what they wear, or how they look IMHO 


Oct 8, 12 15:57

Then we agree! Smile

The text you are quoting:

Then we agree! Smile


Izzie, Oct 8, 2012 @ 16:40
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Post 238

Are you sure Izzie, you know what Rich does for a living right?

 


Oct 8, 12 16:20

Silence Martin! I kill you! Laughing

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Silence Martin! I kill you! Laughing


Rich, Oct 8, 2012 @ 16:55
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Post 239

Silence Martin! I kill you! Laughing


Oct 8, 12 16:55

Carefull mate - you know what happened to your "friends"



The text you are quoting:

Carefull mate - you know what happened to your "friends"


martin, Oct 8, 2012 @ 17:00
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Post 240

I agree with a point made earlier. Am I missing something or does there seem to be an accepted notion that just because a woman, any woman, dresses nicely or even provocatively that a man wants to immediately bed her, let alone even meet or speak with her.  This actually could be seen as an insult even sexist remark towards men. Like men don't make selections and choices just like women do.

The text you are quoting:

I agree with a point made earlier. Am I missing something or does there seem to be an accepted notion that just because a woman, any woman, dresses nicely or even provocatively that a man wants to immediately bed her, let alone even meet or speak with her.  This actually could be seen as an insult even sexist remark towards men. Like men don't make selections and choices just like women do.


Peter Y, Oct 8, 2012 @ 16:59
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Post 241

I agree with a point made earlier. Am I missing something or does there seem to be an accepted notion that just because a woman, any woman, dresses nicely or even provocatively that a man wants to immediately bed her, let alone even meet or speak with her.  This actually could be seen as an insult even sexist remark towards men. Like men don't make selections and choices just like women do.


Oct 8, 12 16:59

As they used to say in the British parliament - maybe still do- "I refer the honorable gentlemen to the comments made earlier ago".Smile


It's been covered

The text you are quoting:

As they used to say in the British parliament - maybe still do- "I refer the honorable gentlemen to the comments made earlier ago".Smile


It's been covered


buzzcocks, Oct 8, 2012 @ 17:11
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Post 242

Or words to that effect ...

The text you are quoting:

Or words to that effect ...


buzzcocks, Oct 8, 2012 @ 17:14
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Post 243

Where I went,people looked a bit like this

I mean- slutty or what?


Oct 8, 12 16:41

I do actually like that T-Shirt. As much as I do like the Femen protests... 


did you know by the way that it's allowed to walk around top-less (woman&man) in New York, I'd say - bring it on. Equality for all.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2194208/Go-Topless-Day-2012-From-New-York-California-American-women-solidarity-womens-rights.html


 

The text you are quoting:

I do actually like that T-Shirt. As much as I do like the Femen protests... 


did you know by the way that it's allowed to walk around top-less (woman&man) in New York, I'd say - bring it on. Equality for all.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2194208/Go-Topless-Day-2012-From-New-York-California-American-women-solidarity-womens-rights.html


 


martin, Oct 8, 2012 @ 17:03
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 244

Hey carolyn....is that really you then?like,back in your heyday?No wonder your mum was worried....


Oct 8, 12 16:36

My mum was only worried that I'd catch a cold.....my dad had other concerns..... 

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My mum was only worried that I'd catch a cold.....my dad had other concerns..... 


Carolyn C, Oct 8, 2012 @ 17:15
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 245

I do actually like that T-Shirt. As much as I do like the Femen protests... 

did you know by the way that it's allowed to walk around top-less (woman&man) in New York, I'd say - bring it on. Equality for all.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2194208/Go-Topless-Day-2012-From-New-York-California-American-women-solidarity-womens-rights.html

 


Oct 8, 12 17:03

Oooooh how outrageous.  Next thing you know there'll be bra burning protests!!


Ladies, pick your dignity up off the floor where you left it in 1968, and move on..... *sigh*.....


 

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Oooooh how outrageous.  Next thing you know there'll be bra burning protests!!


Ladies, pick your dignity up off the floor where you left it in 1968, and move on..... *sigh*.....


 


Carolyn C, Oct 8, 2012 @ 17:19
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 246

Oooooh how outrageous.  Next thing you know there'll be bra burning protests!!

Ladies, pick your dignity up off the floor where you left it in 1968, and move on..... *sigh*.....

 


Oct 8, 12 17:19

Now we are getting a bit to a double standard or am I wrong here. We all agreed that somebody should be allowed to wear (or in this case - what not wear) but now it's suddenly not dignified? Who says so? Sounds weird in my ears. Some people might prefer to walk around with their upper body naked, that's their choise right! are they suddenly different human beeings. I just refer back to my own line a little while ago. people should be free to do whatever they want. Does it offend you that man walk around topless? or woman for that matter? No it doesn't offend me, however, whether it's common sence?!?! Still, if you sit down on a spanish beach it's not any different. I just trying to find out why our moral standards are somehow more superior than those in the middle east? Or the far east? The key phrase I guess here is live and let live. If one doesn't like it - just look the other way. And if you do like it - look don't touch, insult or stare ;-) be safe ;-)

The text you are quoting:

Now we are getting a bit to a double standard or am I wrong here. We all agreed that somebody should be allowed to wear (or in this case - what not wear) but now it's suddenly not dignified? Who says so? Sounds weird in my ears. Some people might prefer to walk around with their upper body naked, that's their choise right! are they suddenly different human beeings. I just refer back to my own line a little while ago. people should be free to do whatever they want. Does it offend you that man walk around topless? or woman for that matter? No it doesn't offend me, however, whether it's common sence?!?! Still, if you sit down on a spanish beach it's not any different. I just trying to find out why our moral standards are somehow more superior than those in the middle east? Or the far east? The key phrase I guess here is live and let live. If one doesn't like it - just look the other way. And if you do like it - look don't touch, insult or stare ;-) be safe ;-)


martin, Oct 8, 2012 @ 17:35
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 247

Oooooh how outrageous.  Next thing you know there'll be bra burning protests!!

Ladies, pick your dignity up off the floor where you left it in 1968, and move on..... *sigh*.....

 


Oct 8, 12 17:19

I found one of the comments made by one that website readers hillarious


"I don't get it, I thought as women we were fighting against being seen as sex objects, so boobs and women in provocative outfits were banned from TV and now we should go out without our tops?"


 


 

The text you are quoting:

I found one of the comments made by one that website readers hillarious


"I don't get it, I thought as women we were fighting against being seen as sex objects, so boobs and women in provocative outfits were banned from TV and now we should go out without our tops?"


 


 


andy o, Oct 8, 2012 @ 17:40
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 248

Now we are getting a bit to a double standard or am I wrong here. We all agreed that somebody should be allowed to wear (or in this case - what not wear) but now it's suddenly not dignified? Who says so? Sounds weird in my ears. Some people might prefer to walk around with their upper body naked, that's their choise right! are they suddenly different human beeings. I just refer back to my own line a little while ago. people should be free to do whatever they want. Does it offend you that man walk around topless? or woman for that matter? No it doesn't offend me, however, whether it's common sence?!?! Still, if you sit down on a spanish beach it's not any different. I just trying to find out why our moral standards are somehow more superior than those in the middle east? Or the far east? The key phrase I guess here is live and let live. If one doesn't like it - just look the other way. And if you do like it - look don't touch, insult or stare ;-) be safe ;-)


Oct 8, 12 17:35

Breasts are (by definition) sexual organs.  Penises are (by definition) sexual organs.  


So if we're all going for "live and let live gender equality", then Rich is seriously threatening to do a "cock-walk" in Geneva.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there'll be anything "dignified" about that. Innocent

The text you are quoting:

Breasts are (by definition) sexual organs.  Penises are (by definition) sexual organs.  


So if we're all going for "live and let live gender equality", then Rich is seriously threatening to do a "cock-walk" in Geneva.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there'll be anything "dignified" about that. Innocent


Carolyn C, Oct 8, 2012 @ 18:04
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 249

I found one of the comments made by one that website readers hillarious

"I don't get it, I thought as women we were fighting against being seen as sex objects, so boobs and women in provocative outfits were banned from TV and now we should go out without our tops?"

 

 


Oct 8, 12 17:40

Hence my Jarvis Cocker quote!!!


But ,in the end,it all comes down to context,what the message is - and who weilds the power behind it.


But I can see why you might be perplexed .Even women like me who agree with the ideas behind these protests have misgivings about the way they are being done.

The text you are quoting:

Hence my Jarvis Cocker quote!!!


But ,in the end,it all comes down to context,what the message is - and who weilds the power behind it.


But I can see why you might be perplexed .Even women like me who agree with the ideas behind these protests have misgivings about the way they are being done.


buzzcocks, Oct 8, 2012 @ 18:07
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 250

ive never understood how women haven't worked out that if they want less 'unwanted attention' then dress more modestly...  otherwise keep dressing like a 'slut' and put up with it. Men (most) will never be able to control their desires to a piont where ALL men will stop trying to persue a lady where sexy clothes. Its just not gna happen.. so either help control this problem by dressing more modestly.. or dont and stop moaning...


Im really confused how women cant work it out lol. And tuff if its not some super handsome 'nice' looking guy who is trying to get you... ugly guys have the same desire.... and yes.. when women dress 'slutty' ... you will and always will be portraid as sex objects... wont change.

The text you are quoting:

ive never understood how women haven't worked out that if they want less 'unwanted attention' then dress more modestly...  otherwise keep dressing like a 'slut' and put up with it. Men (most) will never be able to control their desires to a piont where ALL men will stop trying to persue a lady where sexy clothes. Its just not gna happen.. so either help control this problem by dressing more modestly.. or dont and stop moaning...


Im really confused how women cant work it out lol. And tuff if its not some super handsome 'nice' looking guy who is trying to get you... ugly guys have the same desire.... and yes.. when women dress 'slutty' ... you will and always will be portraid as sex objects... wont change.


Saleem Gabriel Mohammed, Oct 8, 2012 @ 18:10
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 251

Breasts are (by definition) sexual organs.  Penises are (by definition) sexual organs.  

So if we're all going for "live and let live gender equality", then Rich is seriously threatening to do a "cock-walk" in Geneva.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there'll be anything "dignified" about that. Innocent


Oct 8, 12 18:04

A breast a sexual organ? It's merely a gland that produces milk when needed. Male also have them, only with a less amount of fat and glands. Nothing sexual about that.It's people made them into that. I'm not saying I agree to it - but I can see where they are comming from... 


I know Rich well enough that he would never do a "cock walk".... See below why


(Sorry Rich - I'll stop now)


 


 



The text you are quoting:

A breast a sexual organ? It's merely a gland that produces milk when needed. Male also have them, only with a less amount of fat and glands. Nothing sexual about that.It's people made them into that. I'm not saying I agree to it - but I can see where they are comming from... 


I know Rich well enough that he would never do a "cock walk".... See below why


(Sorry Rich - I'll stop now)


 


 


martin, Oct 8, 2012 @ 18:16
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 252

ive never understood how women haven't worked out that if they want less 'unwanted attention' then dress more modestly...  otherwise keep dressing like a 'slut' and put up with it. Men (most) will never be able to control their desires to a piont where ALL men will stop trying to persue a lady where sexy clothes. Its just not gna happen.. so either help control this problem by dressing more modestly.. or dont and stop moaning...

Im really confused how women cant work it out lol. And tuff if its not some super handsome 'nice' looking guy who is trying to get you... ugly guys have the same desire.... and yes.. when women dress 'slutty' ... you will and always will be portraid as sex objects... wont change.


Oct 8, 12 18:10

I strongly disagree with this. If my wife makes a choise to wear a short skirt because it's warm - she doesn't ask for the unwanted attention. She just want not to be overheated. Just treat people with respect, regardless of how they are dressed. It's not down to them, it's down to us man to behave a bit. The days of the Neandertahler are gone! Anyway - I'm out of this one for now - it was fun ;-) Let's continue over a beer soon! I'm in

The text you are quoting:

I strongly disagree with this. If my wife makes a choise to wear a short skirt because it's warm - she doesn't ask for the unwanted attention. She just want not to be overheated. Just treat people with respect, regardless of how they are dressed. It's not down to them, it's down to us man to behave a bit. The days of the Neandertahler are gone! Anyway - I'm out of this one for now - it was fun ;-) Let's continue over a beer soon! I'm in


martin, Oct 8, 2012 @ 18:24
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 253

Breasts are (by definition) sexual organs.  Penises are (by definition) sexual organs.  

So if we're all going for "live and let live gender equality", then Rich is seriously threatening to do a "cock-walk" in Geneva.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there'll be anything "dignified" about that. Innocent


Oct 8, 12 18:04

If Breasts are by definition, then why do so many women walk around with them hanging out ? pushed up, pushed together ???


 


Breasts are not sexual organs, they are attractive mammary glands..  we men happen to like looking at them, because of some primal desire to feed from them. If you pop them out we ARE going to look. WE CANNOT help looking.


Rich wold actually manage to stay quite dignified doing his so called cock walk in Geneve... even drunk he manages to stay quite dignified, so your wrong on that point :) as well.

The text you are quoting:

If Breasts are by definition, then why do so many women walk around with them hanging out ? pushed up, pushed together ???


 


Breasts are not sexual organs, they are attractive mammary glands..  we men happen to like looking at them, because of some primal desire to feed from them. If you pop them out we ARE going to look. WE CANNOT help looking.


Rich wold actually manage to stay quite dignified doing his so called cock walk in Geneve... even drunk he manages to stay quite dignified, so your wrong on that point :) as well.


Karl N, Oct 8, 2012 @ 18:26
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 254

ive never understood how women haven't worked out that if they want less 'unwanted attention' then dress more modestly...  otherwise keep dressing like a 'slut' and put up with it. Men (most) will never be able to control their desires to a piont where ALL men will stop trying to persue a lady where sexy clothes. Its just not gna happen.. so either help control this problem by dressing more modestly.. or dont and stop moaning...

Im really confused how women cant work it out lol. And tuff if its not some super handsome 'nice' looking guy who is trying to get you... ugly guys have the same desire.... and yes.. when women dress 'slutty' ... you will and always will be portraid as sex objects... wont change.


Oct 8, 12 18:10

I disagree strongly with most men not being able to control themselves if they see a woman dressed in a "slutty" way.... that's a ridiculous statement.....


in fact most men don't care if a woman is dressed "slutty".....  especially in this age and time where sex is just about everywhere and easy to get, men could care less..... for god's sake there are over 2 million porn websites out there!!!


However for the women who do choose to dress slutty, don't expect to get that job you wanted at a respectable company and dont be surprised if people in general (other women included) judge you harshly.


judging is human nature, it's in our instincts, it's in fact a survival mechanism!


 


 


 

The text you are quoting:

I disagree strongly with most men not being able to control themselves if they see a woman dressed in a "slutty" way.... that's a ridiculous statement.....


in fact most men don't care if a woman is dressed "slutty".....  especially in this age and time where sex is just about everywhere and easy to get, men could care less..... for god's sake there are over 2 million porn websites out there!!!


However for the women who do choose to dress slutty, don't expect to get that job you wanted at a respectable company and dont be surprised if people in general (other women included) judge you harshly.


judging is human nature, it's in our instincts, it's in fact a survival mechanism!


 


 


 


andy o, Oct 8, 2012 @ 18:33
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 255

Jan 1, 70 01:00

Speaking with myself guarantees intelligent conversation! Laughing

The text you are quoting:

Speaking with myself guarantees intelligent conversation! Laughing


Rich, Oct 8, 2012 @ 18:52
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 256

ive never understood how women haven't worked out that if they want less 'unwanted attention' then dress more modestly...  otherwise keep dressing like a 'slut' and put up with it. Men (most) will never be able to control their desires to a piont where ALL men will stop trying to persue a lady where sexy clothes. Its just not gna happen.. so either help control this problem by dressing more modestly.. or dont and stop moaning...

Im really confused how women cant work it out lol. And tuff if its not some super handsome 'nice' looking guy who is trying to get you... ugly guys have the same desire.... and yes.. when women dress 'slutty' ... you will and always will be portraid as sex objects... wont change.


Oct 8, 12 18:10

Dude, which rock or sandstone did you crawl from.  You might wave a Swiss flag on your profile but your ideas and your words should get you locked up. 


If you can't control yourself around woman, maybe you should ask your parents what they did wrong with your upbrining. Or is it a lack of new genes in the gene pool in the family?


 

The text you are quoting:

Dude, which rock or sandstone did you crawl from.  You might wave a Swiss flag on your profile but your ideas and your words should get you locked up. 


If you can't control yourself around woman, maybe you should ask your parents what they did wrong with your upbrining. Or is it a lack of new genes in the gene pool in the family?


 


smile2sandro, Oct 8, 2012 @ 18:52
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 257

Breasts are (by definition) sexual organs.  Penises are (by definition) sexual organs.  

So if we're all going for "live and let live gender equality", then Rich is seriously threatening to do a "cock-walk" in Geneva.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there'll be anything "dignified" about that. Innocent


Oct 8, 12 18:04

Would have to agree Carolyn. There'd be nothing dignified about it ... hysterically funny would be nearer the truth! 

The text you are quoting:

Would have to agree Carolyn. There'd be nothing dignified about it ... hysterically funny would be nearer the truth! 


Rich, Oct 8, 2012 @ 18:57
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 258

Never argue with an idiot... he will beat you with experience...

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Never argue with an idiot... he will beat you with experience...


Charlie, Oct 8, 2012 @ 19:25
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 259

If Breasts are by definition, then why do so many women walk around with them hanging out ? pushed up, pushed together ???

 

Breasts are not sexual organs, they are attractive mammary glands..  we men happen to like looking at them, because of some primal desire to feed from them. If you pop them out we ARE going to look. WE CANNOT help looking.

Rich wold actually manage to stay quite dignified doing his so called cock walk in Geneve... even drunk he manages to stay quite dignified, so your wrong on that point :) as well.


Oct 8, 12 18:26

Karl - I say "by definition" because I'm stating facts, not opinion.  Breasts are sexual organs because they are part of the reproduction process - fact.


Rich has answered your accusation about his "cock walk" being dignified or not - so I was actually correct on that one (as well).  Embarassed

The text you are quoting:

Karl - I say "by definition" because I'm stating facts, not opinion.  Breasts are sexual organs because they are part of the reproduction process - fact.


Rich has answered your accusation about his "cock walk" being dignified or not - so I was actually correct on that one (as well).  Embarassed


Carolyn C, Oct 8, 2012 @ 19:45
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 260

A breast a sexual organ? It's merely a gland that produces milk when needed. Male also have them, only with a less amount of fat and glands. Nothing sexual about that.It's people made them into that. I'm not saying I agree to it - but I can see where they are comming from... 

I know Rich well enough that he would never do a "cock walk".... See below why

(Sorry Rich - I'll stop now)

 

 


Oct 8, 12 18:16

Martin - "breast a sexual organ" - please see my reply to Karl - it's not an opinion, it's a fact.


Rich and his "cock walk" - well, you have no idea of the conversation people have on chat - he started it earlier today (need to make a nananananah playground noise here).


And that photo is the grossest thing I've ever seen and the reason why a "cock walk" would NEVER walk (thank the lawd!).

The text you are quoting:

Martin - "breast a sexual organ" - please see my reply to Karl - it's not an opinion, it's a fact.


Rich and his "cock walk" - well, you have no idea of the conversation people have on chat - he started it earlier today (need to make a nananananah playground noise here).


And that photo is the grossest thing I've ever seen and the reason why a "cock walk" would NEVER walk (thank the lawd!).


Carolyn C, Oct 8, 2012 @ 19:51
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 261

ive never understood how women haven't worked out that if they want less 'unwanted attention' then dress more modestly...  otherwise keep dressing like a 'slut' and put up with it. Men (most) will never be able to control their desires to a piont where ALL men will stop trying to persue a lady where sexy clothes. Its just not gna happen.. so either help control this problem by dressing more modestly.. or dont and stop moaning...

Im really confused how women cant work it out lol. And tuff if its not some super handsome 'nice' looking guy who is trying to get you... ugly guys have the same desire.... and yes.. when women dress 'slutty' ... you will and always will be portraid as sex objects... wont change.


Oct 8, 12 18:10

Oh - let the games begin......


Saleem - I'm extremely concerned that you're confusing the following:


"Men (most) will never be able to control their desires" with a green light to rape


"persue a lady where (wearing) sexy clothes" with an invitation to rape


"Its just not gna happen" with saying rape is "okay" (or "ok" or "k" - depending on your age or lack of IQ/education).


You are a total embodiment of everything that the original post was all about.


 Congratulations.

The text you are quoting:

Oh - let the games begin......


Saleem - I'm extremely concerned that you're confusing the following:


"Men (most) will never be able to control their desires" with a green light to rape


"persue a lady where (wearing) sexy clothes" with an invitation to rape


"Its just not gna happen" with saying rape is "okay" (or "ok" or "k" - depending on your age or lack of IQ/education).


You are a total embodiment of everything that the original post was all about.


 Congratulations.


Carolyn C, Oct 8, 2012 @ 19:56
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 262

ok to reply to all those about my post... first of all i have no problem controlling myself.. js to clear that. Second of all.. All I meant that is men will always look at a women who's skirt is quite short.. simply because they have strong sexual desire,, and third of all.... So does the unwanted attention keep happening? .....but yes i phrased it wrong.. 'Men (most)'.. thats incorrect. I js meant I dont think you will ever eradicate the unwanted attention.... Its not gna happen. If you start wearing sexy clothes.. your gna attract alot of male attention.... a) because it looks like you want it and b) becuase men sexual desire gets hightened alot more when they see a woman dressed like that...  but also.. you would have to be very attractive to not be dressed like that and get wrong attention... but i still think if you dress like that.. then expect to get more attention than if you were not to dress like that.


 

The text you are quoting:

ok to reply to all those about my post... first of all i have no problem controlling myself.. js to clear that. Second of all.. All I meant that is men will always look at a women who's skirt is quite short.. simply because they have strong sexual desire,, and third of all.... So does the unwanted attention keep happening? .....but yes i phrased it wrong.. 'Men (most)'.. thats incorrect. I js meant I dont think you will ever eradicate the unwanted attention.... Its not gna happen. If you start wearing sexy clothes.. your gna attract alot of male attention.... a) because it looks like you want it and b) becuase men sexual desire gets hightened alot more when they see a woman dressed like that...  but also.. you would have to be very attractive to not be dressed like that and get wrong attention... but i still think if you dress like that.. then expect to get more attention than if you were not to dress like that.


 


Saleem Gabriel Mohammed, Oct 8, 2012 @ 20:53
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 263

also,, if women dress like that at work, I wouldnt recomment it as I dont think many men will respect you for mind, but rather just for your assets.  If i was a women.. i think id much rather someone notice me because of my intellectual capacity, or my skill at something,, rather than have a chance of just getting some position because of how i dress......

The text you are quoting:

also,, if women dress like that at work, I wouldnt recomment it as I dont think many men will respect you for mind, but rather just for your assets.  If i was a women.. i think id much rather someone notice me because of my intellectual capacity, or my skill at something,, rather than have a chance of just getting some position because of how i dress......


Saleem Gabriel Mohammed, Oct 8, 2012 @ 21:01
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 264

Saleem. I thanked you for your original post because I understood what you meant, although I must point out that if I were to give a second look at a woman wearing a short skirt, she would have to be physically attractive aswell. There are many instances of women dressing in short skirts etc who should really be wearing full length overcoats. 

The text you are quoting:

Saleem. I thanked you for your original post because I understood what you meant, although I must point out that if I were to give a second look at a woman wearing a short skirt, she would have to be physically attractive aswell. There are many instances of women dressing in short skirts etc who should really be wearing full length overcoats. 


Paul E, Oct 8, 2012 @ 21:03
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 265

also.. i gave no green light to any rape!! but i do think there would be less rape if there was less porn,, and also think there is a link to dressing slutty and rape.....


some people (ie rapists) im sure are sex crazy.. and porn and slutty women im sure are not helping the situation :| probaly worsten it!

The text you are quoting:

also.. i gave no green light to any rape!! but i do think there would be less rape if there was less porn,, and also think there is a link to dressing slutty and rape.....


some people (ie rapists) im sure are sex crazy.. and porn and slutty women im sure are not helping the situation :| probaly worsten it!


Saleem Gabriel Mohammed, Oct 8, 2012 @ 21:05
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 266

Paul... thanks and at least someone understood what i meant!  and lol @ your comment about full lenght overcoats..


 


 

The text you are quoting:

Paul... thanks and at least someone understood what i meant!  and lol @ your comment about full lenght overcoats..


 


 


Saleem Gabriel Mohammed, Oct 8, 2012 @ 21:15
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 267

Saleem - I don't wish to be unkind, but you're probably better off putting down the shovel and stopping digging your own grave.  Like, quite soon.


The only thing I can (vaguely) agree with you is your comment that "there would be less rape if there was less porn".


Perhaps you may wish to write a letter to Mr Heffner (et al), on behalf of all the women on this forum (and in the world) who would be "delighted" if there was less porn(ography) in the world.


Sorry - that's less "porn designed for men" pornography, in this world, just to be clear.


Jeez - where's Jimmy Saville when you need him.....NOT!!

The text you are quoting:

Saleem - I don't wish to be unkind, but you're probably better off putting down the shovel and stopping digging your own grave.  Like, quite soon.


The only thing I can (vaguely) agree with you is your comment that "there would be less rape if there was less porn".


Perhaps you may wish to write a letter to Mr Heffner (et al), on behalf of all the women on this forum (and in the world) who would be "delighted" if there was less porn(ography) in the world.


Sorry - that's less "porn designed for men" pornography, in this world, just to be clear.


Jeez - where's Jimmy Saville when you need him.....NOT!!


Carolyn C, Oct 8, 2012 @ 21:25
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 268

also.. i gave no green light to any rape!! but i do think there would be less rape if there was less porn,, and also think there is a link to dressing slutty and rape.....

some people (ie rapists) im sure are sex crazy.. and porn and slutty women im sure are not helping the situation :| probaly worsten it!


Oct 8, 12 21:05

you'de better stop the replies until you understand our culture and feminisme.


People can do what they want and wear what they want no matter the gender.


or do you mind being sexually assaulted by men if you wear shorts..because you asked for it..you slut.

The text you are quoting:

you'de better stop the replies until you understand our culture and feminisme.


People can do what they want and wear what they want no matter the gender.


or do you mind being sexually assaulted by men if you wear shorts..because you asked for it..you slut.


smile2sandro, Oct 8, 2012 @ 21:35
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Post 269

i didnt say you cant do what you want... im js saying.. your more likely to get more attention from men if you dress more slutty.. thats all..


 


basically you all disagree on this comment?

The text you are quoting:

i didnt say you cant do what you want... im js saying.. your more likely to get more attention from men if you dress more slutty.. thats all..


 


basically you all disagree on this comment?


Saleem Gabriel Mohammed, Oct 8, 2012 @ 21:39
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Post 270

"or do you mind being sexually assaulted by men if you wear shorts..because you asked for it you slut..."


= Invalid comment,, as first off we are talking about women,, and second, men are not looked at the same way as women are looked at by men,, and third unless your talking about gays,, in which case if i knew id get unwanted attention by men if i wore shorts... I would stop wearing them lol....


and if your getting a bit hype.. relax buddy,, we are debating... fyi... this is my culture too, mixed with british.


 


 


 

The text you are quoting:

"or do you mind being sexually assaulted by men if you wear shorts..because you asked for it you slut..."


= Invalid comment,, as first off we are talking about women,, and second, men are not looked at the same way as women are looked at by men,, and third unless your talking about gays,, in which case if i knew id get unwanted attention by men if i wore shorts... I would stop wearing them lol....


and if your getting a bit hype.. relax buddy,, we are debating... fyi... this is my culture too, mixed with british.


 


 


 


Saleem Gabriel Mohammed, Oct 8, 2012 @ 21:44
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Post 271

Saleem. I thanked you for your original post because I understood what you meant, although I must point out that if I were to give a second look at a woman wearing a short skirt, she would have to be physically attractive aswell. There are many instances of women dressing in short skirts etc who should really be wearing full length overcoats. 


Oct 8, 12 21:03

If you want to share the "full lenth overcoats" - be my guest.


The text you are quoting:

If you want to share the "full lenth overcoats" - be my guest.



Carolyn C, Oct 8, 2012 @ 21:47
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Post 272

Saleem - you are wasting your time. the ones you are arguing with have decided that you are saying something you have not. The ones who want to insist on their right to wear whatever clothing they want, will continue to do so. They will not win my respect or yours but they do not care (and as I mentioned above) will probably not get a second glance from me except of pity


If someone makes a comment criticising them they will continue to get upset and nobody can do anything about it - least of all themselves


 

The text you are quoting:

Saleem - you are wasting your time. the ones you are arguing with have decided that you are saying something you have not. The ones who want to insist on their right to wear whatever clothing they want, will continue to do so. They will not win my respect or yours but they do not care (and as I mentioned above) will probably not get a second glance from me except of pity


If someone makes a comment criticising them they will continue to get upset and nobody can do anything about it - least of all themselves


 


Paul E, Oct 8, 2012 @ 21:56
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 273

Saleem. I thanked you for your original post because I understood what you meant, although I must point out that if I were to give a second look at a woman wearing a short skirt, she would have to be physically attractive aswell. There are many instances of women dressing in short skirts etc who should really be wearing full length overcoats. 


Oct 8, 12 21:03

Could somebody also please tell the men with big bellies that tight T-shirts that accentuate the feature are just....WRONG.


Especially the brightly coloured ones.


 


Or maybe this is part of a mass protest...?It seems to be a very common fashion statement-at least here in CH

The text you are quoting:

Could somebody also please tell the men with big bellies that tight T-shirts that accentuate the feature are just....WRONG.


Especially the brightly coloured ones.


 


Or maybe this is part of a mass protest...?It seems to be a very common fashion statement-at least here in CH


buzzcocks, Oct 8, 2012 @ 22:03
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Post 274

Could somebody also please tell the men with big bellies that tight T-shirts that accentuate the feature are just....WRONG.

Especially the brightly coloured ones.

 

Or maybe this is part of a mass protest...?It seems to be a very common fashion statement-at least here in CH


Oct 8, 12 22:03

Are you suggesting this attire will lead to sexual harrassment or that they have been misled to believe that this will attract sexual harrassment.


There used to be self help centres for such victims of sexual abuse but now that the men only bars have been closed, these people are left without the support they need

The text you are quoting:

Are you suggesting this attire will lead to sexual harrassment or that they have been misled to believe that this will attract sexual harrassment.


There used to be self help centres for such victims of sexual abuse but now that the men only bars have been closed, these people are left without the support they need


Paul E, Oct 8, 2012 @ 22:17
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Post 275

Just to prevent any issues: I'd say all the girls come like this. That way us man don't get the wrong ideas, everybody is happy, and you can walk safely to the train station. Now back to the OP!!! this thread is de-railing. 


Oct 8, 12 15:25

Wrong. Not being able to read Arabic I walked into the front carriage of the underground in Cairo and got ejected by a bunch similarly dressed women

The text you are quoting:

Wrong. Not being able to read Arabic I walked into the front carriage of the underground in Cairo and got ejected by a bunch similarly dressed women


Paul E, Oct 8, 2012 @ 22:21
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Post 276

Wrong. Not being able to read Arabic I walked into the front carriage of the underground in Cairo and got ejected by a bunch similarly dressed women


Oct 8, 12 22:21

Aaah-maybe they'd been reading your posts?

The text you are quoting:

Aaah-maybe they'd been reading your posts?


buzzcocks, Oct 8, 2012 @ 22:33
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Post 277

Sorry-sort of - but it was irrresistableSmile

The text you are quoting:

Sorry-sort of - but it was irrresistableSmile


buzzcocks, Oct 8, 2012 @ 22:34
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Post 278

Aaah-maybe they'd been reading your posts?


Oct 8, 12 22:33

I think it was a case of them hearing my heavy breathing, not caused by running while wearing a brightly coloured T shirt

The text you are quoting:

I think it was a case of them hearing my heavy breathing, not caused by running while wearing a brightly coloured T shirt


Paul E, Oct 8, 2012 @ 22:40
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Post 279

Jan 1, 70 01:00

Their version of feminism and their so-called culture should be kept under lock and key.

The text you are quoting:

Their version of feminism and their so-called culture should be kept under lock and key.


Paul E, Oct 8, 2012 @ 23:27
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Post 280

Too much freedome without responsibility will lead to chaos. There needs to be balance. But some who dont understand this will fight for their so called freedome, without much thought.


 

The text you are quoting:

Too much freedome without responsibility will lead to chaos. There needs to be balance. But some who dont understand this will fight for their so called freedome, without much thought.


 


Saleem Gabriel Mohammed, Oct 8, 2012 @ 23:42
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Post 281

Jan 1, 70 01:00

Boy are you ignorant, I left the Netherlands years ago before that guy was even known. But you sure hide behind your "racism" cart again. you could not be more wrong. You call me a racist, sorry but I don't feel intimidated or threatned by that at all.


No it's OK for you to call woman whores because they dress how they want! go be proud of yourselves, you'r a woman, no?


p.s. in that racist walk, I would walk right beside of you.

The text you are quoting:

Boy are you ignorant, I left the Netherlands years ago before that guy was even known. But you sure hide behind your "racism" cart again. you could not be more wrong. You call me a racist, sorry but I don't feel intimidated or threatned by that at all.


No it's OK for you to call woman whores because they dress how they want! go be proud of yourselves, you'r a woman, no?


p.s. in that racist walk, I would walk right beside of you.


smile2sandro, Oct 8, 2012 @ 23:45
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Post 282

Do not know if Nir or Oded will get to reading this but after reading post 311 I wished there was a do not like button that we could use to express our disagreement or disgust. The report to admin button should stay but that is rather serious.


It might lead to less flippant discussions

The text you are quoting:

Do not know if Nir or Oded will get to reading this but after reading post 311 I wished there was a do not like button that we could use to express our disagreement or disgust. The report to admin button should stay but that is rather serious.


It might lead to less flippant discussions


Paul E, Oct 9, 2012 @ 09:32
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Post 283

But then, Breshna probably better to be ignorant, than a slut. The former is supposedly bliss. 


(Not sure how good your idiomatic English is but am referring to 'ignorance is....) 

The text you are quoting:

But then, Breshna probably better to be ignorant, than a slut. The former is supposedly bliss. 


(Not sure how good your idiomatic English is but am referring to 'ignorance is....) 


Paul E, Oct 9, 2012 @ 09:46
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Post 284

pfff I'm out of this discussion.


For me it is all about liberalism, people should wear what they want and not be burdend by others for it.


Not sure how this became a topic about nationality, race, religion, etc.


Frankly I don't care what you believe in, were you come from or if you are green or yellow or pink. My friends are from all over the planet and all religions.


Have a great day and discussion! 


Cheers,

The text you are quoting:

pfff I'm out of this discussion.


For me it is all about liberalism, people should wear what they want and not be burdend by others for it.


Not sure how this became a topic about nationality, race, religion, etc.


Frankly I don't care what you believe in, were you come from or if you are green or yellow or pink. My friends are from all over the planet and all religions.


Have a great day and discussion! 


Cheers,


smile2sandro, Oct 9, 2012 @ 10:53
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Post 285

Interesting discussion so far, but it should slowely move to the political forum I guess. :-)


Why does the Wilders card get played as soon as somebody is Dutch? Remember, that he is democratically elected. Wether his message is right or wrong - or that he creates strong divisions in Dutch society is a whole other debate, for sure I will never vote for him, but playing this card is not right, and Sandro had a point there. 


I think where we came from in this discussion, is that the remark made by a Canadian cop is right. And even though i strongly believe in individual freedom, freedom as Mohammed correctly said comes with responsibilities. That than sparks again the dicussion, should gouvernments limit those responsibilities? I believe not. However, we all (should) have a working brain, and know where the limits lay. Respect is the key, again in this whole discussion as well. That answers in the OP question 1, respect for eachother. 
Our freedom of press, speech and religion is paramount over everything else.  However, there is a very big crux in that because, e.g. religion could dictate otherwise. All of that can be resolved with live and let live. 


The OP also refered to if rape victims should be blamed. And in the last couple of reactions - it steering towards (not saying as such it was said) that if you dress slutty - you will get treated as such. I think that's not correct. However, having said that, you can expect some trouble if you walk around drunk, in the middle of night dressed up like a "tramp". It's not saying - you deserved that, NO way - never, but, some common sence could be expected.
We never know if it might also have happened when the victim would have been "properly dressed".


The original discussion was about - should a victim be blaimed (partly) because of her choise of clothes, and in my opinion it should be never. That one should have chosen more carefull - yeah perhaps. Perhaps they should have taken a cab - yeah for sure. But they are still a victim, regardless of their clothing.

I guess for me that sums it all up. Have a nice day everybody!


 


 

The text you are quoting:

Interesting discussion so far, but it should slowely move to the political forum I guess. :-)


Why does the Wilders card get played as soon as somebody is Dutch? Remember, that he is democratically elected. Wether his message is right or wrong - or that he creates strong divisions in Dutch society is a whole other debate, for sure I will never vote for him, but playing this card is not right, and Sandro had a point there. 


I think where we came from in this discussion, is that the remark made by a Canadian cop is right. And even though i strongly believe in individual freedom, freedom as Mohammed correctly said comes with responsibilities. That than sparks again the dicussion, should gouvernments limit those responsibilities? I believe not. However, we all (should) have a working brain, and know where the limits lay. Respect is the key, again in this whole discussion as well. That answers in the OP question 1, respect for eachother. 
Our freedom of press, speech and religion is paramount over everything else.  However, there is a very big crux in that because, e.g. religion could dictate otherwise. All of that can be resolved with live and let live. 


The OP also refered to if rape victims should be blamed. And in the last couple of reactions - it steering towards (not saying as such it was said) that if you dress slutty - you will get treated as such. I think that's not correct. However, having said that, you can expect some trouble if you walk around drunk, in the middle of night dressed up like a "tramp". It's not saying - you deserved that, NO way - never, but, some common sence could be expected.
We never know if it might also have happened when the victim would have been "properly dressed".


The original discussion was about - should a victim be blaimed (partly) because of her choise of clothes, and in my opinion it should be never. That one should have chosen more carefull - yeah perhaps. Perhaps they should have taken a cab - yeah for sure. But they are still a victim, regardless of their clothing.

I guess for me that sums it all up. Have a nice day everybody!


 


 


martin, Oct 9, 2012 @ 10:35
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Post 286

My first name is Saleem,, not Mohammed.. js fyi :P

The text you are quoting:

My first name is Saleem,, not Mohammed.. js fyi :P


Saleem Gabriel Mohammed, Oct 9, 2012 @ 11:52
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Post 287

For the record... I LOVE it when women dress nicely, sexily and with style and glamour... Im into legs, so the more I see the better....


 


BUT ... it doesnt incite me to assault them, or rape them, or even approach them. I like the view... so what....


If I have a g/f thats getting looks because of her legs, Im proud and damn happy I get to be with such a gorgeous girl.


I admit to having watched porn as well...and NO I havent raped anyone because of it, nor do I ever intend to.


Stereotyping works in so many way... mostly negatively... lets steer well clear of sexual or racial stereotyping here on EVERY side.


Peace out.

The text you are quoting:

For the record... I LOVE it when women dress nicely, sexily and with style and glamour... Im into legs, so the more I see the better....


 


BUT ... it doesnt incite me to assault them, or rape them, or even approach them. I like the view... so what....


If I have a g/f thats getting looks because of her legs, Im proud and damn happy I get to be with such a gorgeous girl.


I admit to having watched porn as well...and NO I havent raped anyone because of it, nor do I ever intend to.


Stereotyping works in so many way... mostly negatively... lets steer well clear of sexual or racial stereotyping here on EVERY side.


Peace out.


Charlie, Oct 9, 2012 @ 12:33
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Post 288

many men propably prefer to see it or like it.... for some it might be a tipping point to deciding as to whether they approach the women for somthing.,...(i know many guys white/black/brown who go and 'hunt'(can use any word here) for a sexual relation with a women.......... But the woman may not want it or infact not want any attention... in this case we have a problem i.e... above... so thats why i say stop moaning a deal with it...


in the other case of women actually wanting attention then its fine... you cant have both..... jeez its not rocket science lol

The text you are quoting:

many men propably prefer to see it or like it.... for some it might be a tipping point to deciding as to whether they approach the women for somthing.,...(i know many guys white/black/brown who go and 'hunt'(can use any word here) for a sexual relation with a women.......... But the woman may not want it or infact not want any attention... in this case we have a problem i.e... above... so thats why i say stop moaning a deal with it...


in the other case of women actually wanting attention then its fine... you cant have both..... jeez its not rocket science lol


Saleem Gabriel Mohammed, Oct 9, 2012 @ 13:12
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Post 289

forgot to add: the women of target are usually the women who 'appear' more open or receptive.. intentionally or unintentionally... 


 


This could be to do with 2 things.... either woman who dress like a 'slut' (hate using this language but hey it wasnt my choice of words) are either percieved as being open,, OR it heightens certains mens desire more to the point of the tipping point decision to approach them...


 


 

The text you are quoting:

forgot to add: the women of target are usually the women who 'appear' more open or receptive.. intentionally or unintentionally... 


 


This could be to do with 2 things.... either woman who dress like a 'slut' (hate using this language but hey it wasnt my choice of words) are either percieved as being open,, OR it heightens certains mens desire more to the point of the tipping point decision to approach them...


 


 


Saleem Gabriel Mohammed, Oct 9, 2012 @ 13:24
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Post 290

I really hope no one is getting offended by what I say,, its just my opinion and how Ive seen how guys mostly in UK but also here.....

The text you are quoting:

I really hope no one is getting offended by what I say,, its just my opinion and how Ive seen how guys mostly in UK but also here.....


Saleem Gabriel Mohammed, Oct 9, 2012 @ 13:28
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Post 291

many men propably prefer to see it or like it.... for some it might be a tipping point to deciding as to whether they approach the women for somthing.,...(i know many guys white/black/brown who go and 'hunt'(can use any word here) for a sexual relation with a women.......... But the woman may not want it or infact not want any attention... in this case we have a problem i.e... above... so thats why i say stop moaning a deal with it...

in the other case of women actually wanting attention then its fine... you cant have both..... jeez its not rocket science lol


Oct 9, 12 13:12

Saleem, 


I see the point you are trying to make and partly agree to it. Now let's speculate for the sake of discussion. 
If all women would dress up exactly the same - in - again for the sake of discussion - in a niqab. But in this case i mean, all women, no exceptions. Do you think than that that would stop these man from hunting? That's what I wonder. They will "hunt" anyway. My point is more that some people might need a bit more education in respect and human behaviour. We are trying to here to put the cart before the horse. It's those guys who "hunt" who need more education, get some more respect. They are the cause of the problem, not the woman's clothing. 

The text you are quoting:

Saleem, 


I see the point you are trying to make and partly agree to it. Now let's speculate for the sake of discussion. 
If all women would dress up exactly the same - in - again for the sake of discussion - in a niqab. But in this case i mean, all women, no exceptions. Do you think than that that would stop these man from hunting? That's what I wonder. They will "hunt" anyway. My point is more that some people might need a bit more education in respect and human behaviour. We are trying to here to put the cart before the horse. It's those guys who "hunt" who need more education, get some more respect. They are the cause of the problem, not the woman's clothing. 


martin, Oct 9, 2012 @ 13:24
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Post 292

Martin - a serious rapist will hunt anyway but his choice of victimm could be influenced by the type of clothing she wears.


Other males might be attracted initially to a girl who is flaunting herself and who might even give a teasing smile.  This eventually could end up with a drink together and possibily a misinterpretation of signs given. It would be still rape but with (in my opinion^) mitigating circumstances in that the original approach could be deemed to have been encouraged and certainly could have been avoided


Why after all to working girls dress provocatively?

The text you are quoting:

Martin - a serious rapist will hunt anyway but his choice of victimm could be influenced by the type of clothing she wears.


Other males might be attracted initially to a girl who is flaunting herself and who might even give a teasing smile.  This eventually could end up with a drink together and possibily a misinterpretation of signs given. It would be still rape but with (in my opinion^) mitigating circumstances in that the original approach could be deemed to have been encouraged and certainly could have been avoided


Why after all to working girls dress provocatively?


Paul E, Oct 9, 2012 @ 13:54
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Post 293

Paul very fair point. But is it a fact that the rapist will make his choise on clothing?. Not sure but don't have the facts to support this. I would think a rapist would make his choises more based on opportunity and moment. Not on the clothes.


But to be hounest wasn't refering to these kind of "hunters". I was more refering to the types Saleem refered to - I think they call them "players" in slang these days? Rapists should be locked up and the key thrown away. They are beyond the point of education.


 

The text you are quoting:

Paul very fair point. But is it a fact that the rapist will make his choise on clothing?. Not sure but don't have the facts to support this. I would think a rapist would make his choises more based on opportunity and moment. Not on the clothes.


But to be hounest wasn't refering to these kind of "hunters". I was more refering to the types Saleem refered to - I think they call them "players" in slang these days? Rapists should be locked up and the key thrown away. They are beyond the point of education.


 


martin, Oct 9, 2012 @ 14:02
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Post 294

Somehow I don't really understand all the all-over-the place debate on this topic. Ideally, shouldn't men or women actually be able to walk around completely naked if they want to, without the threat or risk of being raped by anyone? 


There's numerous cultures that walk around basically naked or "scantily" clad. Is there a lot of raping going on there? It would be interesting if this could be studied somehow.

The text you are quoting:

Somehow I don't really understand all the all-over-the place debate on this topic. Ideally, shouldn't men or women actually be able to walk around completely naked if they want to, without the threat or risk of being raped by anyone? 


There's numerous cultures that walk around basically naked or "scantily" clad. Is there a lot of raping going on there? It would be interesting if this could be studied somehow.


Peter Y, Oct 9, 2012 @ 14:09
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Post 295

Martin - a serious rapist will hunt anyway but his choice of victimm could be influenced by the type of clothing she wears.

Other males might be attracted initially to a girl who is flaunting herself and who might even give a teasing smile.  This eventually could end up with a drink together and possibily a misinterpretation of signs given. It would be still rape but with (in my opinion^) mitigating circumstances in that the original approach could be deemed to have been encouraged and certainly could have been avoided

Why after all to working girls dress provocatively?


Oct 9, 12 13:54

No! No! No! 


There ARE no mitigating circumstances in rape - that's part of the whole problem.  


Dictionary definition


to force someone to have sex when they are unwilling, using violence or threatening behaviour


There can be NO mitigating circumstances around that statement.


Young children get raped, men get raped, old grannies get raped.


And for the record "working girls" get raped as well.  


It's never okay and it's should never be subject to "mitigating circumstances".


This whole debate is based on the fact that the perpetrators, the police and the judges do not always understand this concept.


YellYellYellYell

The text you are quoting:

No! No! No! 


There ARE no mitigating circumstances in rape - that's part of the whole problem.  


Dictionary definition


to force someone to have sex when they are unwilling, using violence or threatening behaviour


There can be NO mitigating circumstances around that statement.


Young children get raped, men get raped, old grannies get raped.


And for the record "working girls" get raped as well.  


It's never okay and it's should never be subject to "mitigating circumstances".


This whole debate is based on the fact that the perpetrators, the police and the judges do not always understand this concept.


YellYellYellYell


Carolyn C, Oct 9, 2012 @ 14:11
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 296

Jan 1, 70 01:00

Hi Tea


Yes,indeed it's a bit off topic if the Naked Rambler should be allowed to do this....my view, if he's on nature trails and not marching through neigborhoods, shopping malls and coffee shops, what's the harm?


But more on topic. If he gets chased down and sexually assualted on a country stroll, did he "inticite" it or "go asking for it"? And would he then be partially responsible for the crime? It sometimes helps to look at a situation from another angle to better understand it. By doing this we can easily see that the answer is the same.... of course NO!

The text you are quoting:

Hi Tea


Yes,indeed it's a bit off topic if the Naked Rambler should be allowed to do this....my view, if he's on nature trails and not marching through neigborhoods, shopping malls and coffee shops, what's the harm?


But more on topic. If he gets chased down and sexually assualted on a country stroll, did he "inticite" it or "go asking for it"? And would he then be partially responsible for the crime? It sometimes helps to look at a situation from another angle to better understand it. By doing this we can easily see that the answer is the same.... of course NO!


Peter Y, Oct 9, 2012 @ 15:05
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 297

" It would be still rape but with (in my opinion^) mitigating circumstances"


Oh dear - how many times have out-of-touch male judges come out with this old chestnut.And how many times does it have to be pointed out that you cannot have "mitigating circumstances" in a case of RAPE.


If you still don't understand,I suggest you look up again the definition of this crime.Nobody commits this crime without realising they are using force(unless they are mentally impaired)

The text you are quoting:

" It would be still rape but with (in my opinion^) mitigating circumstances"


Oh dear - how many times have out-of-touch male judges come out with this old chestnut.And how many times does it have to be pointed out that you cannot have "mitigating circumstances" in a case of RAPE.


If you still don't understand,I suggest you look up again the definition of this crime.Nobody commits this crime without realising they are using force(unless they are mentally impaired)


buzzcocks, Oct 9, 2012 @ 15:06
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 298

Comment directed to Paul E by the way.......

The text you are quoting:

Comment directed to Paul E by the way.......


buzzcocks, Oct 9, 2012 @ 15:13
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Post 299

What if I was in a bar wearing a t shirt that stated the below picture, and was molested by a gorgeous girl at the bar..... 


(not making light of the subject.... just day dreaming... dont kill the messenger etc)



The text you are quoting:

What if I was in a bar wearing a t shirt that stated the below picture, and was molested by a gorgeous girl at the bar..... 


(not making light of the subject.... just day dreaming... dont kill the messenger etc)


Charlie, Oct 9, 2012 @ 15:12
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 300

What if I was in a bar wearing a t shirt that stated the below picture, and was molested by a gorgeous girl at the bar..... 

(not making light of the subject.... just day dreaming... dont kill the messenger etc)


Oct 9, 12 15:12

It would depend whether she used force.But judges might say "he was asking for it"


Others might say the woman needed professional help........

The text you are quoting:

It would depend whether she used force.But judges might say "he was asking for it"


Others might say the woman needed professional help........


buzzcocks, Oct 9, 2012 @ 15:22
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 301

What if I was in a bar wearing a t shirt that stated the below picture, and was molested by a gorgeous girl at the bar..... 

(not making light of the subject.... just day dreaming... dont kill the messenger etc)


Oct 9, 12 15:12

The problem is Charlie, as we keep saying, the 2 wouldn't be related.  


She'd be molesting you whilst her Eastern European accomplice is taken the wallet out your back pocket.


Fools and their money - hey?????

The text you are quoting:

The problem is Charlie, as we keep saying, the 2 wouldn't be related.  


She'd be molesting you whilst her Eastern European accomplice is taken the wallet out your back pocket.


Fools and their money - hey?????


Carolyn C, Oct 9, 2012 @ 15:25
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 302

STFU Shrek

The text you are quoting:

STFU Shrek


Charlie, Oct 9, 2012 @ 15:26
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Post 303

comment above directed to any man hater


 

The text you are quoting:

comment above directed to any man hater


 


Charlie, Oct 9, 2012 @ 15:29
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 304

Well,"molesting" is assault so.......it would be unwanted UndecidedWhy the need for a pimp?

The text you are quoting:

Well,"molesting" is assault so.......it would be unwanted UndecidedWhy the need for a pimp?


buzzcocks, Oct 9, 2012 @ 15:29
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 305

None on this site - as far as  I can seeSmile

The text you are quoting:

None on this site - as far as  I can seeSmile


buzzcocks, Oct 9, 2012 @ 15:32
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Post 306

Tongue outLaughingLaughing

The text you are quoting:

Tongue outLaughingLaughing


Charlie, Oct 9, 2012 @ 15:57
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 307

Charly - now it would even become more interesting (for the discussion sake) if you would wear this and get raped:


 



The text you are quoting:

Charly - now it would even become more interesting (for the discussion sake) if you would wear this and get raped:


 


martin, Oct 9, 2012 @ 16:41
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 308

Charly - now it would even become more interesting (for the discussion sake) if you would wear this and get raped:

 


Oct 9, 12 16:41

I bring my own roofies if anyone female is interested....

The text you are quoting:

I bring my own roofies if anyone female is interested....


Charlie, Oct 9, 2012 @ 16:46
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 309

I bring my own roofies if anyone female is interested....


Oct 9, 12 16:46

Does this mean that we're starting to see rape as something equivalent to sexual pleasure now?


This crosover is a bit disturbing.


Charlie expresses a wish to have things shoved into him against his will and to feel pain and humiliation.He might even get some cuts and bruises in the process.maybe even internal damage.


Can we stop a moment here and thing about how these flippant comments you're starting to make are .....not so funny.

The text you are quoting:

Does this mean that we're starting to see rape as something equivalent to sexual pleasure now?


This crosover is a bit disturbing.


Charlie expresses a wish to have things shoved into him against his will and to feel pain and humiliation.He might even get some cuts and bruises in the process.maybe even internal damage.


Can we stop a moment here and thing about how these flippant comments you're starting to make are .....not so funny.


buzzcocks, Oct 9, 2012 @ 17:02
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 310

You're trying to be light-hearted,I know,but it's treading on dangerous ground.


Rape is not the same as having sex - but you know that.So don't mix

The text you are quoting:

You're trying to be light-hearted,I know,but it's treading on dangerous ground.


Rape is not the same as having sex - but you know that.So don't mix


buzzcocks, Oct 9, 2012 @ 17:05
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Post 311

ok ... fair enough... was trying to change the subject...FAIL.... so I go back to my naughty thread


 

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ok ... fair enough... was trying to change the subject...FAIL.... so I go back to my naughty thread


 


Charlie, Oct 9, 2012 @ 17:18
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 312

ok ... fair enough... was trying to change the subject...FAIL.... so I go back to my naughty thread

 


Oct 9, 12 17:18

Molly's waiting for you bad boy......tell her the grown ups send their love.Kiss

The text you are quoting:

Molly's waiting for you bad boy......tell her the grown ups send their love.Kiss


Carolyn C, Oct 9, 2012 @ 17:28
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Post 313

Molly's waiting for you bad boy......tell her the grown ups send their love.Kiss


Oct 9, 12 17:28

bite me

The text you are quoting:

bite me


Charlie, Oct 9, 2012 @ 17:36
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 314

Interesting discussion so far, but it should slowely move to the political forum I guess. :-)

Why does the Wilders card get played as soon as somebody is Dutch? Remember, that he is democratically elected. Wether his message is right or wrong - or that he creates strong divisions in Dutch society is a whole other debate, for sure I will never vote for him, but playing this card is not right, and Sandro had a point there. 

I think where we came from in this discussion, is that the remark made by a Canadian cop is right. And even though i strongly believe in individual freedom, freedom as Mohammed correctly said comes with responsibilities. That than sparks again the dicussion, should gouvernments limit those responsibilities? I believe not. However, we all (should) have a working brain, and know where the limits lay. Respect is the key, again in this whole discussion as well. That answers in the OP question 1, respect for eachother. 
Our freedom of press, speech and religion is paramount over everything else.  However, there is a very big crux in that because, e.g. religion could dictate otherwise. All of that can be resolved with live and let live. 

The OP also refered to if rape victims should be blamed. And in the last couple of reactions - it steering towards (not saying as such it was said) that if you dress slutty - you will get treated as such. I think that's not correct. However, having said that, you can expect some trouble if you walk around drunk, in the middle of night dressed up like a "tramp". It's not saying - you deserved that, NO way - never, but, some common sence could be expected.
We never know if it might also have happened when the victim would have been "properly dressed".

The original discussion was about - should a victim be blaimed (partly) because of her choise of clothes, and in my opinion it should be never. That one should have chosen more carefull - yeah perhaps. Perhaps they should have taken a cab - yeah for sure. But they are still a victim, regardless of their clothing.

I guess for me that sums it all up. Have a nice day everybody!

 

 


Oct 9, 12 10:35

Oh, FFS! All evidence shows that it does NOT matter what the woman is wearing. 


It seems clear that some men on this forum either believe that some men are animals who are unable or unwilling to control their aggression when "provoked" by so-called "skimpy clothing." Or rather perhaps this is a reflection of those posters' "thought processes."


Either way, it's a version of "she was asking for it." 


Unbelievable.


 

The text you are quoting:

Oh, FFS! All evidence shows that it does NOT matter what the woman is wearing. 


It seems clear that some men on this forum either believe that some men are animals who are unable or unwilling to control their aggression when "provoked" by so-called "skimpy clothing." Or rather perhaps this is a reflection of those posters' "thought processes."


Either way, it's a version of "she was asking for it." 


Unbelievable.


 


Translator, Oct 9, 2012 @ 18:00
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Post 315

If men got raped at comparable rates as women and children -- by other and more physically threatening men, then perhaps some of you would get the point.  

The text you are quoting:

If men got raped at comparable rates as women and children -- by other and more physically threatening men, then perhaps some of you would get the point.  


Translator, Oct 9, 2012 @ 18:29
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Post 316

If men got raped at comparable rates as women and children -- by other and more physically threatening men, then perhaps some of you would get the point.  


Oct 9, 12 18:29

Educational rape.   O_o


 

The text you are quoting:

Educational rape.   O_o


 


richardm, Oct 9, 2012 @ 18:43
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Post 317

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/24/health/as-victims-men-struggle-for-rape-awareness.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0


"Much of the research on the sexual assault of men has focused on prisons. But men are also raped outside of prison, usually by people they know, including acquaintances and intimate partners, but occasionally by complete strangers. They are raped as part of violent, drunken or drug-induced assaults; war crimes; interrogations; antigay bias crimes; and hazing rites for male clubs and organizations, like fraternities, and in the military.


In one study of 3,337 military veterans applying for disability benefits for post-traumatic stress disorder, 6.5 percent of male combat veterans and 16.5 percent of noncombat veterans reported either in-service or post-service sexual assault. (The rates were far higher for female veterans, 69.0 percent and 86.6 percent respectively.)


A Pentagon report released on Thursday found a 64 percent increase in sexual crimes in the Army since 2006, with rape, sexual assault and forcible sodomy the most frequent violent sex crimes committed last year; 95 percent of all victims were women."


 

The text you are quoting:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/24/health/as-victims-men-struggle-for-rape-awareness.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0


"Much of the research on the sexual assault of men has focused on prisons. But men are also raped outside of prison, usually by people they know, including acquaintances and intimate partners, but occasionally by complete strangers. They are raped as part of violent, drunken or drug-induced assaults; war crimes; interrogations; antigay bias crimes; and hazing rites for male clubs and organizations, like fraternities, and in the military.


In one study of 3,337 military veterans applying for disability benefits for post-traumatic stress disorder, 6.5 percent of male combat veterans and 16.5 percent of noncombat veterans reported either in-service or post-service sexual assault. (The rates were far higher for female veterans, 69.0 percent and 86.6 percent respectively.)


A Pentagon report released on Thursday found a 64 percent increase in sexual crimes in the Army since 2006, with rape, sexual assault and forcible sodomy the most frequent violent sex crimes committed last year; 95 percent of all victims were women."


 


Translator, Oct 9, 2012 @ 18:49
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Post 318

If men got raped at comparable rates as women and children -- by other and more physically threatening men, then perhaps some of you would get the point.  


Oct 9, 12 18:29

Very true-and maybe they wouldn't joke about it as happened above.


 

The text you are quoting:

Very true-and maybe they wouldn't joke about it as happened above.


 


buzzcocks, Oct 9, 2012 @ 19:03
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Post 319

Oooooooo - that Jimmy Saville - he was DEFINITELY "asking for it". 


Joking aside (if that was a joke) - people ask "oh, why now, now that he's dead and he can't defend himself - poor thing....." - well the answer is that he was on the Scotland Yard "PPL" - Protected Paedophile List which exists to protect famous celebrities who's life would either be in danger, or they would expose the frailities of Scotland Yard, if word ever got out, that they were Paeds or sex offenders (btw that includes rapists).


I learnt this in a drunken bar conversation manyvyears ago from two ex-Scotland Yard coppers who had left (one male, one female, for the record), disgusted with the way the British "justice" system protects paedophiles, rapists and sex offenders.


Sir Jimmy was one of them.  Hence, why protected until the day he died. People are asking, now, why go after him now he's dead without realising we can "only" go after him now he's dead, to protect those still living.


Presenter: Starr had denied ever meeting Ms Ward - who claims he tried to molest her in Sir Jimmy Savile's (pictured in 1982) BBC dressing room

The text you are quoting:

Oooooooo - that Jimmy Saville - he was DEFINITELY "asking for it". 


Joking aside (if that was a joke) - people ask "oh, why now, now that he's dead and he can't defend himself - poor thing....." - well the answer is that he was on the Scotland Yard "PPL" - Protected Paedophile List which exists to protect famous celebrities who's life would either be in danger, or they would expose the frailities of Scotland Yard, if word ever got out, that they were Paeds or sex offenders (btw that includes rapists).


I learnt this in a drunken bar conversation manyvyears ago from two ex-Scotland Yard coppers who had left (one male, one female, for the record), disgusted with the way the British "justice" system protects paedophiles, rapists and sex offenders.


Sir Jimmy was one of them.  Hence, why protected until the day he died. People are asking, now, why go after him now he's dead without realising we can "only" go after him now he's dead, to protect those still living.


Presenter: Starr had denied ever meeting Ms Ward - who claims he tried to molest her in Sir Jimmy Savile's (pictured in 1982) BBC dressing room


Carolyn C, Oct 9, 2012 @ 21:35
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Post 320

Oooooooo - that Jimmy Saville - he was DEFINITELY "asking for it". 

Joking aside (if that was a joke) - people ask "oh, why now, now that he's dead and he can't defend himself - poor thing....." - well the answer is that he was on the Scotland Yard "PPL" - Protected Paedophile List which exists to protect famous celebrities who's life would either be in danger, or they would expose the frailities of Scotland Yard, if word ever got out, that they were Paeds or sex offenders (btw that includes rapists).

I learnt this in a drunken bar conversation manyvyears ago from two ex-Scotland Yard coppers who had left (one male, one female, for the record), disgusted with the way the British "justice" system protects paedophiles, rapists and sex offenders.

Sir Jimmy was one of them.  Hence, why protected until the day he died. People are asking, now, why go after him now he's dead without realising we can "only" go after him now he's dead, to protect those still living.

Presenter: Starr had denied ever meeting Ms Ward - who claims he tried to molest her in Sir Jimmy Savile's (pictured in 1982) BBC dressing room


Oct 9, 12 21:35

Weird,isn't it-many of us had bad vibes about the guy for years and kept waiting for something to "come out".He was too sickly to be true,too goody goody combined with a showbiz artificiality to be really the "saint" people said he was.


So,now we know we weren't just crazy.And-OMG-shame of the forces of law and order for protecting him - UNBELIEVABLE.


 


Another reason why rape,assault,sexual abuse have to be taken seriously and not as a joke to "change the subject" à la Charlie.


Evidently,from the case here mentioned,the crimes involved were treated as nothing too serious - and the subject changed too often.Enough said.


 

The text you are quoting:

Weird,isn't it-many of us had bad vibes about the guy for years and kept waiting for something to "come out".He was too sickly to be true,too goody goody combined with a showbiz artificiality to be really the "saint" people said he was.


So,now we know we weren't just crazy.And-OMG-shame of the forces of law and order for protecting him - UNBELIEVABLE.


 


Another reason why rape,assault,sexual abuse have to be taken seriously and not as a joke to "change the subject" à la Charlie.


Evidently,from the case here mentioned,the crimes involved were treated as nothing too serious - and the subject changed too often.Enough said.


 


buzzcocks, Oct 10, 2012 @ 00:41
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Post 321

Oh, FFS! All evidence shows that it does NOT matter what the woman is wearing. 

It seems clear that some men on this forum either believe that some men are animals who are unable or unwilling to control their aggression when "provoked" by so-called "skimpy clothing." Or rather perhaps this is a reflection of those posters' "thought processes."

Either way, it's a version of "she was asking for it." 

Unbelievable.

 


Oct 9, 12 18:00

Not only Men, but some women beleive it too

The text you are quoting:

Not only Men, but some women beleive it too


Karl N, Oct 10, 2012 @ 15:32
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Post 322

4chan delivers, on time.



The text you are quoting:

4chan delivers, on time.


richardm, Oct 10, 2012 @ 16:38
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Post 323

people ask... 'should we limit freedomeof speech' or freedome how to act or freedome how to dress or whatever freedome.....


most would immediately say NO never! but I believe you should limit any 'freedome' of anything if you know it will or could cause any negative affects.... eg... you are free to say anything in the world,, but why would you say something to someone that you know would be very very offensive.... this can be applied to all types of 'freedom'....


goes back to what i said earlier... freedom without any responsibility will lead to chaos. But so many are caught up on this so called idea of 'freedom'...

The text you are quoting:

people ask... 'should we limit freedomeof speech' or freedome how to act or freedome how to dress or whatever freedome.....


most would immediately say NO never! but I believe you should limit any 'freedome' of anything if you know it will or could cause any negative affects.... eg... you are free to say anything in the world,, but why would you say something to someone that you know would be very very offensive.... this can be applied to all types of 'freedom'....


goes back to what i said earlier... freedom without any responsibility will lead to chaos. But so many are caught up on this so called idea of 'freedom'...


Saleem Gabriel Mohammed, Oct 10, 2012 @ 18:22
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Post 324

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/03/belgium-film-street-harassment-sofie-peeters


happens everywhere in each country, people should treat each other how they themselves wish to be treated.


 

The text you are quoting:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/03/belgium-film-street-harassment-sofie-peeters


happens everywhere in each country, people should treat each other how they themselves wish to be treated.


 


smile2sandro, Oct 10, 2012 @ 19:10
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Post 325

4chan delivers, on time.


Oct 10, 12 16:38

Did you know they make push up underwear for men as well? Laughing

The text you are quoting:

Did you know they make push up underwear for men as well? Laughing


smile2sandro, Oct 10, 2012 @ 19:12
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Post 326

Did you know they make push up underwear for men as well? Laughing


Oct 10, 12 19:12

Yes.  I own a pair.  =)  Gift from a girlfriend many years ago.  Link.

The text you are quoting:

Yes.  I own a pair.  =)  Gift from a girlfriend many years ago.  Link.


richardm, Oct 10, 2012 @ 19:30
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Post 327

Yes.  I own a pair.  =)  Gift from a girlfriend many years ago.  Link.


Oct 10, 12 19:30

Okay - we click on the link, we have a titter, then we think but "Richardm"!!!!! (sorry that should be a a small "richardm"), you're american (that's a small a), not even Australian (that a BiG A).  If you were actually Australian, I may have found your link vaguely amusing.


But that said, (sorry) the only words that spring to mind are "get over yourself" (you can add "already" being American - as in "get over yourself, ALREADY!!").


Seriously though, it's nice to have some lightheartedness on these forums (always), but please make it appropriate to the subject matter. 


Charlie had the good grace to leave after his inappropriate and/or unwelcomed comments. 


Sorry to be a kill joy - but there's a time and a place for amusing comments and links - lots of women (and men) on here, wouldn't think this was the time or the place.


Just saying'

The text you are quoting:

Okay - we click on the link, we have a titter, then we think but "Richardm"!!!!! (sorry that should be a a small "richardm"), you're american (that's a small a), not even Australian (that a BiG A).  If you were actually Australian, I may have found your link vaguely amusing.


But that said, (sorry) the only words that spring to mind are "get over yourself" (you can add "already" being American - as in "get over yourself, ALREADY!!").


Seriously though, it's nice to have some lightheartedness on these forums (always), but please make it appropriate to the subject matter. 


Charlie had the good grace to leave after his inappropriate and/or unwelcomed comments. 


Sorry to be a kill joy - but there's a time and a place for amusing comments and links - lots of women (and men) on here, wouldn't think this was the time or the place.


Just saying'


Carolyn C, Oct 10, 2012 @ 20:28
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Post 328

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/03/belgium-film-street-harassment-sofie-peeters

happens everywhere in each country, people should treat each other how they themselves wish to be treated.

 


Oct 10, 12 19:10

Brilliant link - thank you.

The text you are quoting:

Brilliant link - thank you.


Carolyn C, Oct 10, 2012 @ 20:39
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Post 329

Glocals threadcop.  Not OK.



The text you are quoting:

Glocals threadcop.  Not OK.


richardm, Oct 10, 2012 @ 21:07
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 330

Oh, FFS! All evidence shows that it does NOT matter what the woman is wearing. 

It seems clear that some men on this forum either believe that some men are animals who are unable or unwilling to control their aggression when "provoked" by so-called "skimpy clothing." Or rather perhaps this is a reflection of those posters' "thought processes."

Either way, it's a version of "she was asking for it." 

Unbelievable.

 


Oct 9, 12 18:00

@translator. What are you implying. That some of us have weird thoughts? I'm actually quite offended by that. Nobody here said that it should be mitigated (or at least I didn't). The only thing what was said is that perhaps - a little bit more common sense could have perhaps!! prevented what happened. Does this mean somebody actually said that: Yeah..  her own fault? Or that actually she had it coming? FFS No it doesn't mean that. I feel offended as a father of 3 children (girls actually) that you even dare to imply this. I'm raising my girls to think a little. In a perfect world everybody here is right. See my earlier posts. Woman and man should be free to wear whatever they wish without facing any problems whatsoever, I find freedom paramount over everything!!


But this isn't a perfect world - now is it Cupcake? As it is children women and men get raped, killed, mutilated and what have we more. So without putting the cart before the horse we could use some common sense here. And that has nothing to do with clothing, nor does it have anything to do with we think or say here. That is just making sure that one is not at the wrong time at the wrong place. It's just not an ideal world. How much I would wish that - for my 3 girls - to grow up in one we have to deal with what we got, and no slut walk, forum or discussion here on glocals is ever going to change something about that. There are just a bunch of neanderthalers out there - and we have to make sure that we and our loved ones are as best as possible equipped to fight them off or better - prevent even ever having to face it. It's just not a perfect world. Crap - but that's life. 

The text you are quoting:

@translator. What are you implying. That some of us have weird thoughts? I'm actually quite offended by that. Nobody here said that it should be mitigated (or at least I didn't). The only thing what was said is that perhaps - a little bit more common sense could have perhaps!! prevented what happened. Does this mean somebody actually said that: Yeah..  her own fault? Or that actually she had it coming? FFS No it doesn't mean that. I feel offended as a father of 3 children (girls actually) that you even dare to imply this. I'm raising my girls to think a little. In a perfect world everybody here is right. See my earlier posts. Woman and man should be free to wear whatever they wish without facing any problems whatsoever, I find freedom paramount over everything!!


But this isn't a perfect world - now is it Cupcake? As it is children women and men get raped, killed, mutilated and what have we more. So without putting the cart before the horse we could use some common sense here. And that has nothing to do with clothing, nor does it have anything to do with we think or say here. That is just making sure that one is not at the wrong time at the wrong place. It's just not an ideal world. How much I would wish that - for my 3 girls - to grow up in one we have to deal with what we got, and no slut walk, forum or discussion here on glocals is ever going to change something about that. There are just a bunch of neanderthalers out there - and we have to make sure that we and our loved ones are as best as possible equipped to fight them off or better - prevent even ever having to face it. It's just not a perfect world. Crap - but that's life. 


martin, Oct 11, 2012 @ 10:01
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 331

I find it quite amazing, how many alledgedly intelligent women onto the thread and just post random comments, without actually reading whats been written.


As for suggesting that if more men were raped we would understand, how women feel, i actually found this extremely repulsive. !!!


In what world do you live in where you think, a better knowledge comes from causing pain and suffering to others ? i,e raping a man, increases his knowledge of how it feels to be in that situation ... do you REALLY think that if more men were raped, that this would mean less women were raped....!!!  I find that quite a perverse thought.


 

The text you are quoting:

I find it quite amazing, how many alledgedly intelligent women onto the thread and just post random comments, without actually reading whats been written.


As for suggesting that if more men were raped we would understand, how women feel, i actually found this extremely repulsive. !!!


In what world do you live in where you think, a better knowledge comes from causing pain and suffering to others ? i,e raping a man, increases his knowledge of how it feels to be in that situation ... do you REALLY think that if more men were raped, that this would mean less women were raped....!!!  I find that quite a perverse thought.


 


Karl N, Oct 11, 2012 @ 10:14
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 332

Martin, never underestimate the resolve of someone who would rather child-proof the world instead of world-proofing their children.  Social engineering is the domain of the ultra-liberal (and Glocals is full of them).


Paraphrasing Takimag: their thought process works backwards.  Start at the end with a wishful thought -- "create a world with zero stigma and zero risk for the feminine gender" then moonwalk over the side of a cliff due to a lack of common sense.


That any of these individuals are taken seriously on a large scale is the hallmark of a society at its zenith; one with relative peace and abundant resources.  I'll take this package, warts and all, over the alternative...

The text you are quoting:

Martin, never underestimate the resolve of someone who would rather child-proof the world instead of world-proofing their children.  Social engineering is the domain of the ultra-liberal (and Glocals is full of them).


Paraphrasing Takimag: their thought process works backwards.  Start at the end with a wishful thought -- "create a world with zero stigma and zero risk for the feminine gender" then moonwalk over the side of a cliff due to a lack of common sense.


That any of these individuals are taken seriously on a large scale is the hallmark of a society at its zenith; one with relative peace and abundant resources.  I'll take this package, warts and all, over the alternative...


richardm, Oct 11, 2012 @ 10:26
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 333

"Never underestimate the resolve of someone who would rather child-proof the world instead of world-proofing their children"


I think that's about the most profound, intelligent thing I've ever read on a glocals forum.  


Sheer genius, Richard, sheer genius. 

The text you are quoting:

"Never underestimate the resolve of someone who would rather child-proof the world instead of world-proofing their children"


I think that's about the most profound, intelligent thing I've ever read on a glocals forum.  


Sheer genius, Richard, sheer genius. 


Carolyn C, Oct 11, 2012 @ 10:55
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 334

In my opinion we have lost the animal perspective of the problem. If you dress sexy in front of sexual offender you must be aware of the potential risk as somebody with a Rolex knows the consequences to get into some areas at night. 


We are all social animals and we’ve learned that we shouldn't rape or steal to others, mainly for moral reasons rather than legal ones; however in our society not everybody is under the same rules. For those we have prisons with the only exception of Catholic Church and diplomatic status citizens. 


We have to change this behaviour but in the meantime we should face off the reality of sharing our places and time with undesirable people. 

The text you are quoting:

In my opinion we have lost the animal perspective of the problem. If you dress sexy in front of sexual offender you must be aware of the potential risk as somebody with a Rolex knows the consequences to get into some areas at night. 


We are all social animals and we’ve learned that we shouldn't rape or steal to others, mainly for moral reasons rather than legal ones; however in our society not everybody is under the same rules. For those we have prisons with the only exception of Catholic Church and diplomatic status citizens. 


We have to change this behaviour but in the meantime we should face off the reality of sharing our places and time with undesirable people. 


carlos s, Oct 11, 2012 @ 10:23
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Post 335

I wish I could take credit for it.  It's something I read about 10 years ago and it's stuck in my mind ever since.

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I wish I could take credit for it.  It's something I read about 10 years ago and it's stuck in my mind ever since.


richardm, Oct 11, 2012 @ 11:16
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 336

I find it quite amazing, how many alledgedly intelligent women onto the thread and just post random comments, without actually reading whats been written.

As for suggesting that if more men were raped we would understand, how women feel, i actually found this extremely repulsive. !!!

In what world do you live in where you think, a better knowledge comes from causing pain and suffering to others ? i,e raping a man, increases his knowledge of how it feels to be in that situation ... do you REALLY think that if more men were raped, that this would mean less women were raped....!!!  I find that quite a perverse thought.

 


Oct 11, 12 10:14

This time,I'd say YOU haven't read Translator's post properly.


Are you a native speaker? I think so.You are misreading her statement and distorting it.That is NOT what she was expressing.


You seem to be doing what you have accused others of doing on these threads


Translator made a very important point here that deserves careful reading-and thinking about

The text you are quoting:

This time,I'd say YOU haven't read Translator's post properly.


Are you a native speaker? I think so.You are misreading her statement and distorting it.That is NOT what she was expressing.


You seem to be doing what you have accused others of doing on these threads


Translator made a very important point here that deserves careful reading-and thinking about


buzzcocks, Oct 11, 2012 @ 11:15
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 337

This time,I'd say YOU haven't read Translator's post properly.

Are you a native speaker? I think so.You are misreading her statement and distorting it.That is NOT what she was expressing.

You seem to be doing what you have accused others of doing on these threads

Translator made a very important point here that deserves careful reading-and thinking about


Oct 11, 12 11:15

and I quote directly


If men got raped at comparable rates as women and children -- by other and more physically threatening men, then perhaps some of you would get the point. 

The text you are quoting:

and I quote directly


If men got raped at comparable rates as women and children -- by other and more physically threatening men, then perhaps some of you would get the point. 


Karl N, Oct 11, 2012 @ 11:32
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Post 338

Yes,yes - but what she means here is totally distorted by what you say in your response.

The text you are quoting:

Yes,yes - but what she means here is totally distorted by what you say in your response.


buzzcocks, Oct 11, 2012 @ 12:19
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 339

"Never underestimate the resolve of someone who would rather child-proof the world instead of world-proofing their children"

I think that's about the most profound, intelligent thing I've ever read on a glocals forum.  

Sheer genius, Richard, sheer genius. 


Oct 11, 12 10:55

It's only George Bernard Shaw's quote read backwards, minus the last part.


The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. - George Bernard Shaw


 

The text you are quoting:

It's only George Bernard Shaw's quote read backwards, minus the last part.


The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. - George Bernard Shaw


 


Arun K V, Oct 11, 2012 @ 12:24
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Post 340

Yes,yes - but what she means here is totally distorted by what you say in your response.


Oct 11, 12 12:19

Yes Yes but nothing... and I quote if men got raped at comaprable rates as women and children by other and more PHYSICALLY THREATENING MEN, .. what kind of supposition is this ??


Then perhaps some of you would get the point ???


so if i got raped by a man, then i would get the point she is trying to make ?? by this suggestion alone .... to me thats not only repulsive its a totally wrong supposition to make... there is no distortion of any fact.


 


I really dont care what you think , about this, you do not have anything valid to say to justify your argument, you are arguing for arguings sake. and your  trying to defend someone , who is perfectly capable of defending herself.


thats me out of here...


 

The text you are quoting:

Yes Yes but nothing... and I quote if men got raped at comaprable rates as women and children by other and more PHYSICALLY THREATENING MEN, .. what kind of supposition is this ??


Then perhaps some of you would get the point ???


so if i got raped by a man, then i would get the point she is trying to make ?? by this suggestion alone .... to me thats not only repulsive its a totally wrong supposition to make... there is no distortion of any fact.


 


I really dont care what you think , about this, you do not have anything valid to say to justify your argument, you are arguing for arguings sake. and your  trying to defend someone , who is perfectly capable of defending herself.


thats me out of here...


 


Karl N, Oct 11, 2012 @ 12:33
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Post 341

Jan 1, 70 01:00

Hahahaha!!!!!


You see, that's the beauty of being "over the hill", you know how to behave like a  "grown-up" AND you can be be "childish" at the same time.


However, when you're only 23, you don't have that luxury.


So, I'd rather be 83 than 23 any day of the week, sweedie..... Kiss

The text you are quoting:

Hahahaha!!!!!


You see, that's the beauty of being "over the hill", you know how to behave like a  "grown-up" AND you can be be "childish" at the same time.


However, when you're only 23, you don't have that luxury.


So, I'd rather be 83 than 23 any day of the week, sweedie..... Kiss


Carolyn C, Oct 11, 2012 @ 14:30
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 342

I find it quite amazing, how many alledgedly intelligent women onto the thread and just post random comments, without actually reading whats been written.

As for suggesting that if more men were raped we would understand, how women feel, i actually found this extremely repulsive. !!!

In what world do you live in where you think, a better knowledge comes from causing pain and suffering to others ? i,e raping a man, increases his knowledge of how it feels to be in that situation ... do you REALLY think that if more men were raped, that this would mean less women were raped....!!!  I find that quite a perverse thought.

 


Oct 11, 12 10:14

I'm happy you found it repulsive. That is what most women -- and many men -- feel about rape and the inappropriate and ineffectual response to dealing with it.


Rape is a crime of agreession and control. it has nothing to do with clothing. If you believe it does, yes, your thinking is indeed perverse because it goes against all evidence and reality.


The large percentage victims of rape are by and large those who are underserved by various society's legal and political systems. When something happens to the politically influential that is considered intolerable, it is stamped out.


Yes, that is the reality. Many men, and some women belittle rape and its consequences -- particularly so-called date rape, because it generally does not happen to them.


 

The text you are quoting:

I'm happy you found it repulsive. That is what most women -- and many men -- feel about rape and the inappropriate and ineffectual response to dealing with it.


Rape is a crime of agreession and control. it has nothing to do with clothing. If you believe it does, yes, your thinking is indeed perverse because it goes against all evidence and reality.


The large percentage victims of rape are by and large those who are underserved by various society's legal and political systems. When something happens to the politically influential that is considered intolerable, it is stamped out.


Yes, that is the reality. Many men, and some women belittle rape and its consequences -- particularly so-called date rape, because it generally does not happen to them.


 


Translator, Oct 11, 2012 @ 15:40
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 343

Martin, never underestimate the resolve of someone who would rather child-proof the world instead of world-proofing their children.  Social engineering is the domain of the ultra-liberal (and Glocals is full of them).

Paraphrasing Takimag: their thought process works backwards.  Start at the end with a wishful thought -- "create a world with zero stigma and zero risk for the feminine gender" then moonwalk over the side of a cliff due to a lack of common sense.

That any of these individuals are taken seriously on a large scale is the hallmark of a society at its zenith; one with relative peace and abundant resources.  I'll take this package, warts and all, over the alternative...


Oct 11, 12 10:26

As someone who grew up in one of the toughest cities in the United States, I find your implication that I want to "child proof the world" hilarious!


In fact, your statement is an excellent example of a logical fallacy termed "reducing to the absurb." You are impying that I am contending that the world should be a utopia. Of course, I am not.


The genesis of the "Slut Walk" movement were stupid and entirely fallacious comments by a Toronto cop. 


The Slut Walk movement is not saying that girls and women should not be taught how to be more aware of safety. Nor am I. 


Most intelligent people are able to understand and balance competing thoughts in their head. Many, many rape prevention and crisis organizations inform women, girls -- and yes even men -- about how to avoid becoming a victim -- to the extent that one can.


I am not sure what kind of "social engineering" you are referring to exactly. Of course there will always be rapists in every society. Rape prevention as well as prosecution are equally important.


Again, being a rape victim has nothing to do with clothes. Telling women and girls it does is not helpful. The most important factors are alcohol consumption and being isolated, for example, travelling alone. 


And of course, telling a woman who has been raped and brutalized that the world is not a utopia -- and nor should she want it to be -- is indeed, very cold comfort.


 


 


 

The text you are quoting:

As someone who grew up in one of the toughest cities in the United States, I find your implication that I want to "child proof the world" hilarious!


In fact, your statement is an excellent example of a logical fallacy termed "reducing to the absurb." You are impying that I am contending that the world should be a utopia. Of course, I am not.


The genesis of the "Slut Walk" movement were stupid and entirely fallacious comments by a Toronto cop. 


The Slut Walk movement is not saying that girls and women should not be taught how to be more aware of safety. Nor am I. 


Most intelligent people are able to understand and balance competing thoughts in their head. Many, many rape prevention and crisis organizations inform women, girls -- and yes even men -- about how to avoid becoming a victim -- to the extent that one can.


I am not sure what kind of "social engineering" you are referring to exactly. Of course there will always be rapists in every society. Rape prevention as well as prosecution are equally important.


Again, being a rape victim has nothing to do with clothes. Telling women and girls it does is not helpful. The most important factors are alcohol consumption and being isolated, for example, travelling alone. 


And of course, telling a woman who has been raped and brutalized that the world is not a utopia -- and nor should she want it to be -- is indeed, very cold comfort.


 


 


 


Translator, Oct 11, 2012 @ 15:56
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Post 344

That statement wasn't directed at you, Translator.  I was speaking in generalities.  I stand by the entire thing, BTW.

The text you are quoting:

That statement wasn't directed at you, Translator.  I was speaking in generalities.  I stand by the entire thing, BTW.


richardm, Oct 11, 2012 @ 16:23
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Post 345

gotta love Glocals for the cat fights.... its a wonder we ever manage to have good parties....


 


 



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gotta love Glocals for the cat fights.... its a wonder we ever manage to have good parties....


 


 


Charlie, Oct 11, 2012 @ 16:31
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Post 346

gotta love Glocals for the cat fights.... its a wonder we ever manage to have good parties....

 

 


Oct 11, 12 16:31

It's a wonder we ever get any bloody work done!  I've logged on and off about 10 times today!

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It's a wonder we ever get any bloody work done!  I've logged on and off about 10 times today!


Carolyn C, Oct 11, 2012 @ 16:34
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Post 347

Just leave it logged in all day but in the background.... refresh every hour...bingo...


 


thats my suggestion...and what I would do...if I did such a thing.... 

The text you are quoting:

Just leave it logged in all day but in the background.... refresh every hour...bingo...


 


thats my suggestion...and what I would do...if I did such a thing.... 


Charlie, Oct 11, 2012 @ 16:53
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Post 348

@translator. What are you implying. That some of us have weird thoughts? I'm actually quite offended by that. Nobody here said that it should be mitigated (or at least I didn't). The only thing what was said is that perhaps - a little bit more common sense could have perhaps!! prevented what happened. Does this mean somebody actually said that: Yeah..  her own fault? Or that actually she had it coming? FFS No it doesn't mean that. I feel offended as a father of 3 children (girls actually) that you even dare to imply this. I'm raising my girls to think a little. In a perfect world everybody here is right. See my earlier posts. Woman and man should be free to wear whatever they wish without facing any problems whatsoever, I find freedom paramount over everything!!

But this isn't a perfect world - now is it Cupcake? As it is children women and men get raped, killed, mutilated and what have we more. So without putting the cart before the horse we could use some common sense here. And that has nothing to do with clothing, nor does it have anything to do with we think or say here. That is just making sure that one is not at the wrong time at the wrong place. It's just not an ideal world. How much I would wish that - for my 3 girls - to grow up in one we have to deal with what we got, and no slut walk, forum or discussion here on glocals is ever going to change something about that. There are just a bunch of neanderthalers out there - and we have to make sure that we and our loved ones are as best as possible equipped to fight them off or better - prevent even ever having to face it. It's just not a perfect world. Crap - but that's life. 


Oct 11, 12 10:01

Cupcake? Is that some sort of Dutch compliment?


As I have stated before, the genesis of the SlutWalk movement was the Toronto cops comments. And yes, people who believe that rape has to do with clothing are either ignorant or victims of perverse thinking because of all evidence and reality to the contrary.


Educating children -- and adults [and in the case of SlutWalk, certain law enforcement officials in particular] about safety and awareness of environment is vital in all communities. 


What you teach your children of course is up to you. No one says the world is a uptopia and that there will never be rapists. There will. 


That said, it is only fairly recently that many western societies have recognized and are coming to grips with the concepts of rape within marriage, date rape and that sex workers can be raped. These are evolutions of social justice for classes of victims who have gone previously unrecognized.


Again, I believe that most of us who have some modicum of intelligence can hold competing thoughts in their heads. One can have fun at night but one must be aware of surroundings. Protect your drink, even your non-alcoholic one. There is safety in numbers.


Freedom is important, yes. So is reality. When the reality is that cops believe women are victimized because of clothing, that is a serious problem.

The text you are quoting:

Cupcake? Is that some sort of Dutch compliment?


As I have stated before, the genesis of the SlutWalk movement was the Toronto cops comments. And yes, people who believe that rape has to do with clothing are either ignorant or victims of perverse thinking because of all evidence and reality to the contrary.


Educating children -- and adults [and in the case of SlutWalk, certain law enforcement officials in particular] about safety and awareness of environment is vital in all communities. 


What you teach your children of course is up to you. No one says the world is a uptopia and that there will never be rapists. There will. 


That said, it is only fairly recently that many western societies have recognized and are coming to grips with the concepts of rape within marriage, date rape and that sex workers can be raped. These are evolutions of social justice for classes of victims who have gone previously unrecognized.


Again, I believe that most of us who have some modicum of intelligence can hold competing thoughts in their heads. One can have fun at night but one must be aware of surroundings. Protect your drink, even your non-alcoholic one. There is safety in numbers.


Freedom is important, yes. So is reality. When the reality is that cops believe women are victimized because of clothing, that is a serious problem.


Translator, Oct 11, 2012 @ 16:18
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Post 349

Some more smut, disgusting.


 


http://photoblog.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/10/11/7324073-child-marriage-continues-cycle-of-abuse-poverty-for-girls-in-over-50-countries?lite

The text you are quoting:

Some more smut, disgusting.


 


http://photoblog.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/10/11/7324073-child-marriage-continues-cycle-of-abuse-poverty-for-girls-in-over-50-countries?lite


smile2sandro, Oct 11, 2012 @ 18:07
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Post 350

Some more smut, disgusting.

 

http://photoblog.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/10/11/7324073-child-marriage-continues-cycle-of-abuse-poverty-for-girls-in-over-50-countries?lite


Oct 11, 12 18:07

lol i see where you are going with that.... how about sticking to the subject?

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lol i see where you are going with that.... how about sticking to the subject?


Saleem Gabriel Mohammed, Oct 11, 2012 @ 20:14
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Post 351

@carolyn breasts are *not* sexual organs and not part of the reproductive process. They are, however, erogenous zones and can be ... oh, come on! Do we really have to argue this point? Really? Really?!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_organ


http://www.mothering.com/community/t/145173/breasts-are-not-sex-organs


http://askville.amazon.com/Americans-breast-sexual-organ-Plz-historical-mature-replies/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=6845315


http://www.breastnotes.com/topics/toi-qa-sexualbreast.htm (paragraph two is particulary interesting here. addresses the burqa issue.)


 

The text you are quoting:

@carolyn breasts are *not* sexual organs and not part of the reproductive process. They are, however, erogenous zones and can be ... oh, come on! Do we really have to argue this point? Really? Really?!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_organ


http://www.mothering.com/community/t/145173/breasts-are-not-sex-organs


http://askville.amazon.com/Americans-breast-sexual-organ-Plz-historical-mature-replies/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=6845315


http://www.breastnotes.com/topics/toi-qa-sexualbreast.htm (paragraph two is particulary interesting here. addresses the burqa issue.)


 


Zonker, Oct 11, 2012 @ 23:43
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 352

aaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggh!


I just spent the last....god knows how long.....reading the last 3 days of this thread. Maddening! Carolyn and Buzzcocks seem to have the determined and unnatural knack for misunderstanding (most) everything that the guys here have said. You sound like Republicans.


And why you, Carolyn, felt the need to be so condescending to Molly is beyond me. And I agree with Paul's comments to Saleem.


I lost track of all the things I wanted to say in response to all the comments above. I've barely typed a thing and I'm just...exhausted.


 

The text you are quoting:

aaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggh!


I just spent the last....god knows how long.....reading the last 3 days of this thread. Maddening! Carolyn and Buzzcocks seem to have the determined and unnatural knack for misunderstanding (most) everything that the guys here have said. You sound like Republicans.


And why you, Carolyn, felt the need to be so condescending to Molly is beyond me. And I agree with Paul's comments to Saleem.


I lost track of all the things I wanted to say in response to all the comments above. I've barely typed a thing and I'm just...exhausted.


 


Zonker, Oct 12, 2012 @ 00:20
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 353

Cupcake? Is that some sort of Dutch compliment?

As I have stated before, the genesis of the SlutWalk movement was the Toronto cops comments. And yes, people who believe that rape has to do with clothing are either ignorant or victims of perverse thinking because of all evidence and reality to the contrary.

Educating children -- and adults [and in the case of SlutWalk, certain law enforcement officials in particular] about safety and awareness of environment is vital in all communities. 

What you teach your children of course is up to you. No one says the world is a uptopia and that there will never be rapists. There will. 

That said, it is only fairly recently that many western societies have recognized and are coming to grips with the concepts of rape within marriage, date rape and that sex workers can be raped. These are evolutions of social justice for classes of victims who have gone previously unrecognized.

Again, I believe that most of us who have some modicum of intelligence can hold competing thoughts in their heads. One can have fun at night but one must be aware of surroundings. Protect your drink, even your non-alcoholic one. There is safety in numbers.

Freedom is important, yes. So is reality. When the reality is that cops believe women are victimized because of clothing, that is a serious problem.


Oct 11, 12 16:18

Translator! As discussed in private I'm with you! There might be some small details where we differ - but having said that - in the big picture I agree with you without any doubt. Now I have to go back to my boys forum to fight off the trolls :-)


 


 

The text you are quoting:

Translator! As discussed in private I'm with you! There might be some small details where we differ - but having said that - in the big picture I agree with you without any doubt. Now I have to go back to my boys forum to fight off the trolls :-)


 


 


martin, Oct 12, 2012 @ 10:11
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 354

Translator. You posted a long thread in which you stated that all the evidence pointed to the fact that clothing has nothing to do with whether a person is raped or not.


Two notorious rapists in England Jack the Ripper and the Yorkshire went in the main for prostitutes. How did they recognise them? From the colour of their eyes?


The Yorkshire Rippers last victim was a student from Leeds University and was the only victim who was not a prositute but it would be very interesting to find out how she was dressed 


As martin said above - opportunity plays a role but if there is a rapist around who believes it is his god given mission to rid the world of prostitutes (and you cannot deny they have been more than one) and you are dressed like a slut or a prostitute you are running a risk of being picked on


Prove me wrong.  It is not the clothes themselves that maybe attract the rapist it is the charcter which you have appeared to assume by dressing in a certain manner.


 

The text you are quoting:

Translator. You posted a long thread in which you stated that all the evidence pointed to the fact that clothing has nothing to do with whether a person is raped or not.


Two notorious rapists in England Jack the Ripper and the Yorkshire went in the main for prostitutes. How did they recognise them? From the colour of their eyes?


The Yorkshire Rippers last victim was a student from Leeds University and was the only victim who was not a prositute but it would be very interesting to find out how she was dressed 


As martin said above - opportunity plays a role but if there is a rapist around who believes it is his god given mission to rid the world of prostitutes (and you cannot deny they have been more than one) and you are dressed like a slut or a prostitute you are running a risk of being picked on


Prove me wrong.  It is not the clothes themselves that maybe attract the rapist it is the charcter which you have appeared to assume by dressing in a certain manner.


 


Paul E, Oct 12, 2012 @ 19:14
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 355

Feminism to me should be about women being proud wives, good mothers, excellent professionals, exceeding and succeeding, being all of the things they want to be....  of course without losing the essence that makes them women...... 


All that "i'll burn my bra, show my tiny boobs to the world, then burp in your face and scratch my non-existent balls because my clitoris is bigger than your penis and I hate you for being a man" type feminism, it's a cancer that has become the feminist movement's worst enemy.


 


 

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Feminism to me should be about women being proud wives, good mothers, excellent professionals, exceeding and succeeding, being all of the things they want to be....  of course without losing the essence that makes them women...... 


All that "i'll burn my bra, show my tiny boobs to the world, then burp in your face and scratch my non-existent balls because my clitoris is bigger than your penis and I hate you for being a man" type feminism, it's a cancer that has become the feminist movement's worst enemy.


 


 


andy o, Oct 13, 2012 @ 12:37
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 356

andy, while i heartily agree with your statement, i can't figure where things more tangible than Pride would be handled. Things like equal pay, equal opportunity for advancement, education, etc. I'm woefully uneducated in these other things that *do* affect women adversely, but I thought at least part of the feminist movement also dealt with those issues.


and to that end, "i hate men (who hire/fire us and set our pay rates)" is understandable, although perhaps the parenthetical has been lost over time?


 

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andy, while i heartily agree with your statement, i can't figure where things more tangible than Pride would be handled. Things like equal pay, equal opportunity for advancement, education, etc. I'm woefully uneducated in these other things that *do* affect women adversely, but I thought at least part of the feminist movement also dealt with those issues.


and to that end, "i hate men (who hire/fire us and set our pay rates)" is understandable, although perhaps the parenthetical has been lost over time?


 


Zonker, Oct 13, 2012 @ 12:57
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 357

Well, the total silence to my post 389 would suggest that either everyone agrees with me or that that people are desperately leafing through back copies of the Telegraph and Argus. And before any one corrects me, I know that its the Bradford local rag. Cannot remember the name of the Leeds one even though I am currently on the Leeds / Bradford border.

The text you are quoting:

Well, the total silence to my post 389 would suggest that either everyone agrees with me or that that people are desperately leafing through back copies of the Telegraph and Argus. And before any one corrects me, I know that its the Bradford local rag. Cannot remember the name of the Leeds one even though I am currently on the Leeds / Bradford border.


Paul E, Oct 13, 2012 @ 19:23
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 358

I don't think there is anything left to say on this topic, however I saw this today and it made me smile... thought I'd share it with you Laughing


Some have a high sense of solidarity... how cool this is? Cool


Toronto men walked "a mile in her shoes" to help end violence towards women.



The text you are quoting:

I don't think there is anything left to say on this topic, however I saw this today and it made me smile... thought I'd share it with you Laughing


Some have a high sense of solidarity... how cool this is? Cool


Toronto men walked "a mile in her shoes" to help end violence towards women.


Izzie, Nov 28, 2012 @ 12:42
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 359

And here is the video

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And here is the video


Izzie, Nov 28, 2012 @ 12:53
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 360

When I lived in Canada men would wear a white ribbon on December 6th, as a message against violence against women.

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When I lived in Canada men would wear a white ribbon on December 6th, as a message against violence against women.


Gerard P, Nov 28, 2012 @ 13:50
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 361

There cant possibly be any mitigating circumstances as far as rape is concerned. However women dress has nothing to do with it. Of course you are going to get more male attention if you are in a skimpy outfit whether thats the effect you want or not and men are going to possibly aproach you just for sex but thats not the same as rape. You have a choice and there should never be a point in an encounter where its too late to say no. However horny a guy gets from looking at a sexily dressed woman, at the end of the day he is not an animal.

The text you are quoting:

There cant possibly be any mitigating circumstances as far as rape is concerned. However women dress has nothing to do with it. Of course you are going to get more male attention if you are in a skimpy outfit whether thats the effect you want or not and men are going to possibly aproach you just for sex but thats not the same as rape. You have a choice and there should never be a point in an encounter where its too late to say no. However horny a guy gets from looking at a sexily dressed woman, at the end of the day he is not an animal.


Jan S, Nov 28, 2012 @ 19:38
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Re: Slut Walk
Post 362

Look.. thing is easy.. .. If you see me walking naked it will Never mean "WELCOME to visit my vagina!" NEVER!!!!! If law permit us to walk naked.. some will! And If law permit us to dress like rue de bern hores then why not.. It will never ever in any case mean  "Come and F me against my own will!!!!"  Should we women iron our boobs like they do in Cameroon just too look less sexy?? And also wear a bag?? Stop having shower and grow our bodyhair looong? Is that when you men think we are safe from sick people?? Guess what NOOOOO! There are some sick people out there who find even a tree sexy and will rape it! SO dont come here tell me or any other women if we wear bit too short skirt or have too big boobs then you should come and rape me!! HELL NO! I am my on boss, you get it when i say yes.. and my yes comes when I am not under your GHB or any other drug which been given by Jack! 


 


PEACE OUT!

The text you are quoting:

Look.. thing is easy.. .. If you see me walking naked it will Never mean "WELCOME to visit my vagina!" NEVER!!!!! If law permit us to walk naked.. some will! And If law permit us to dress like rue de bern hores then why not.. It will never ever in any case mean  "Come and F me against my own will!!!!"  Should we women iron our boobs like they do in Cameroon just too look less sexy?? And also wear a bag?? Stop having shower and grow our bodyhair looong? Is that when you men think we are safe from sick people?? Guess what NOOOOO! There are some sick people out there who find even a tree sexy and will rape it! SO dont come here tell me or any other women if we wear bit too short skirt or have too big boobs then you should come and rape me!! HELL NO! I am my on boss, you get it when i say yes.. and my yes comes when I am not under your GHB or any other drug which been given by Jack! 


 


PEACE OUT!


Merike, Nov 28, 2012 @ 20:00
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