hi dean, the "silence" sign is meant for no use of cell phones in that particular train carriage (wagon). and not for people to stop conversing amongst themselves.

epicure, Aug 31, 2009 @ 10:25

 Hello Deano!

I love the way you describe situations, you really make it come alive!

There really are silent cariages on Swiss trains for people who want to enjoy a quiet ride, just like there are bicycle compartments, restaurants, first and second classes.

Like you, I always thought the silent cariages were much like libraries (i.e. keep your tone of voice down) but it may be that you are not to speak in them.

However, the two men were obviously having a quiet chat and were not intending to disrupt anyone.  It was rude of the lady to speak in a silent cariage when she obviously did know the rule. As well, I assume she was not empolyed by the swiss train system, as you do not mention a uniform.

I don't enjoy when people play policeman, because I notice they spend their time pointing out faults in others but never have time to lend a hand to someone in need (getting on the train with heavy luggage, crutches or children) which is far more important.

Remember, that's one rude person you met on a train on a Monday morning. Surely there are many more who make your stay in Switzerland pleasant. I'd hate for you to leave!

Mary
MarmarK, Aug 31, 2009 @ 10:14

Travel in perfect peace.

If you like perfect peace when you travel, the quiet zone is the place for you. You can read a book, work, or just sit back, enjoy the trip and watch the scenery go by – all totally undisturbed.

Please refrain from the following in quiet areas:

conversation and discussion, even if conducted quietlylistening to music or the radio, even using headphonesusing audio and video applications on laptopsusing mobile phones

Routes with quiet zones in 1st and 2nd class:

Basel SBB–Lucerne–Gotthard–LuganoBasel SBB–Zurich Main Station–ChurBasel SBB–Berne–Interlaken OstBasel SBB–Berne–BrigGeneva Airport–Biel/Bienne–Zurich Main Station–St. GallenGeneva Airport–Lausanne–Berne–Zurich Main Station–St. GallenLausanne–Biel/Bienne–Basel SBBRomanshorn–Zurich Main Station–Berne–BrigZurich Main Station–Lucerne

Verbier, Aug 31, 2009 @ 10:51

Yeah, those things are for cellphones and headphones. They're not supposed to stop you from being a human being being for the duration of your journey.

One thing that narks me to pretty high degree -- in *some* countries, not mentioning them by name -- is families that book themselves into the quiet carriages so that their kids can get some sleep on the journey. Ohhhh, can anyone see the fundamental flaw in that reasoning?

hayes, Aug 31, 2009 @ 10:50

Sorry about the formatting going to hell.

As you can see, ALL noise is not allowed in a quite wagon!

Here is the page link (sorry hotlink does not work with FF yet):

http://mct.sbb.ch/mct/en/reisezeit/dienstleistungen/ruheabteil.htm?=

Verbier, Aug 31, 2009 @ 10:55

 Hmmm.... having experienced ad nauseum the self opinionated and self important guy/girl on the train in Britain who WILL NOT STOP talking on their bl**dy mobile phone then a bit of Swiss peace normally makes me quite chilled and peachy.  So on a day to day basis I am quite pleased at the civility and reserve.

There are always a few people who will take it to the extreme though - my fave experience here so far is at one of the gigs in the Parc de la Grange this summer where half the crowd were either stood or dancing having a great time.  A lovely couple from a few rows back actually came forward and asked if I could sit down as i was spoiling their view.....

hucklewoo, Aug 31, 2009 @ 10:49

alright, corrected I stand: apparently they are supposed to stop you from being a human being... Do those lines also stop in Nyon to pick up Deano1uk or are they all the super-fast transport ones?

i just hope the people in those carriages are considerate enough to turn the pages quietly.

hayes, Aug 31, 2009 @ 10:56

 Ok, so phones is the issue, cheers Roger - yes I would observe that rule.  I hate talking on them in public anyway, let alone where I would get death stares... so can understand and support that 'roool'

Kaki, you said 'calling and talking' not allowed on British trains.  I don't think there's a rule in England for simply 'no talking' - If there is that rule it's probably because everone on the train is moaning that it's late again, so the train company probably have forced a no-talking ban so as not to effect public morale!!  The fact that they're probably all wet and cold would have done that already though!

Thanks Mary... I'll stay a bit longer... just for you xx
Deano1uk, Aug 31, 2009 @ 10:53

Chadi, Aug 31, 2009 @ 10:39

Seems they stop in Nyon, Hayes.  I was on the very last carriage today, maybe that's relevant too.

Ok, cheers Verbier - to "sit back and enjoy the scenery' - Yes, that's a reasonable rule to enforce... starting to see the sense in it now.

Thanks also for the translation...wow... not even 'quiet conversation.'

I think most people on the carriage are just happy to get a seat at that time of day, it would be interesting to know how many "expect" and are willing to enforce total silence should there scenery viewing or reading be disturbed whilst on the way to work.  Well, I know of at least one person.... however, had she not have said anything would someone else?  I'll never know!
Deano1uk, Aug 31, 2009 @ 11:03

 I can just imagine the newspaper headlines in the near future:
"Train passenger indicted for not shouting out a warning to other passengers that the
carriage was on fire" he claimed he was in a silent car and didn't want to disturb anyone!!

epicure, Aug 31, 2009 @ 11:33

 all this being said, i was a bit taken back when travelling on the 4pm local train between vevey and montreux and was swept away by 3 school kids ( 14-16yrs) discussing their classes and teachers and life in general. it went something like this:
"mais oui, putain de merde, ça fait chier, ce putain de connard, tu imagines , ........
every 3 words were interspaced by "putain, chier, merde, con, " etc. but, as i was in the "speaking carriage" i suppose conversation is acceptable!!

epicure, Aug 31, 2009 @ 11:36

 it's a bit tough to know where to draw the line, isn't it. on the spectrum between drunken singing and a whispered "excuse me, do you have a tissue?".

as another example, i was on a train once and there were no-smoking signs everywhere. while i was walking between the carriages i noticed that in the region by the train doors, there were none so i idly sparked up a cigarette. after just 30 seconds this man walks past and says i can't smoke there. and i'm all like, dude, i don't see any signs around; in the carriages i get it -- people don't want smoke around them but there's nobody here and there are no signs. he says that it's no-smoking everywhere, including on the platforms but again i say that there are no signs and there was no announcement and just how is anyone supposed to know. i even apologise for the fact the 1 year old kid he's carrying has started crying because smoke from my cigarette has been wafting in the little one's eyes, but i have to add that that wouldn't have happened had he just walked through and not stopped to bleat at me. he looks a little frustrated and walks back the way he came. i finish most of my cigarette, get bored, and open the toilet door to fling the but into the toilet but just as i'm doing that some jumped up 20 year old, jobsworth train employee swings by and nervously reels off some pre-written text. i go through the same arguments again for the 3rd time but he's not buying it either. now the man and his kid are back as well, just to spectate, and occasionally say the word "yeah". he gets on his cellphone and barks something unintelligible into it and asks to see my ID. obviously i tell him i haven't got any and the conversation goes circular again for the nth time. in a minute another train dude has shown up and is standing on the other side of me and as the train pulls into some station (not my destination) they shuffle me off and onto the platform, without even letting me pick up my bag. then two cops start steaming down the platform putting on their leather gloves and drag me away. the cops, as usual, don't care for logic, and they slap a big fine on me. to this day, i'm not sure exactly what the fine was for but i can only assume it was something like "being right when there were people with more power than me around". i never did get my bag back. and i had to pay for a ticket for the remainder of the journey.

hayes, Aug 31, 2009 @ 12:00

 hayes, after over 40 years here in switzerland i have learned, to win...you have to know how to "play" the system. humility will get you everywhere.....they feel you are "bowing " to them and that they have managed to "teach" you a lesson, but in reality, they haven't caught on that you are the one "playing" them.
not to worry, you'll get the gist of it in time. as franklin said "you can catch more flies with a spoonfool of honey than with a gallon of viniger"

epicure, Aug 31, 2009 @ 12:32

Thanks epicure, I'll give it a go. Did Franklin ever say anything about how to change your genetic programming?

hayes, Aug 31, 2009 @ 12:43

Dean, I can understand that you found it strange, but as Verbier pointed, you are not supposed to make any kind of nose in these carriages, just as if you were in a library (where we all think it's perfectly normal). I often travel in these quiet zones when I have to work, sleep, think or read and find them quite enjoyable. That's only one or two carriages per train and if you want to have a conversation with your buddy, just go to the next one.

Free, Aug 31, 2009 @ 13:12

 yes, i think they call them "wagon-lits" .

noise (no̵iz)

noun

loud or confused shouting; din of voices; clamor any loud, discordant, or disagreeable sound or sounds.quiet discussion in hushed tones does not qualify as noise.




epicure, Aug 31, 2009 @ 13:29

 i'd pay extra to ride in any car nobody could talk in.   what luxury...

floydmarks, Aug 31, 2009 @ 14:13

No sympathy this time, Hayes!

You cannot smoke in trains unless it's specified, and it's not a question of being humble or anything like that: you were wrong and you were playing the smart arse on top.

And as far as I'm concerned it shouldn't even be a question of rules.
You needn't a "No farting" sign to know that you don't have to fart in a public place, let alone a little space like a train wagon.

Stef__Granny, Aug 31, 2009 @ 14:26

Hey! I didn't say it was during the current, enlightened social epoch when smoking has been made, for all intents and purposes, illegal. Or that it was in a rail network in a country that doesn't have smoking carriages.

hayes, Aug 31, 2009 @ 14:42

 :-)

Anyway... Smoking stinks (in the literal sense of the term). You should always refrain (or stop) if someone around is disturbed.

Stef__Granny, Aug 31, 2009 @ 14:51

Hmmm, I'm not sure about the "should" in the second sentence. If you're deriving that should from the first sentence, then I think you're in danger of deriving an ought from a synthetic statement -- the is-ought problem; Hume's guillotine -- and that's not allowed. If however, you're deriving that should from the 2nd half of the 2nd sentence -- essentially the ethic of reciprocity -- then that only holds if the other person is very attractive.

It's a logical minefield.

hayes, Aug 31, 2009 @ 15:05

[ Potentially off-topic, I've no clue... ]   I'm not quite sure what's going on between Kaki and _Marina_ here, but I do like the idea of the complaining woman passing a note to the two English guys to avoid breaking the rule herself. That'd be spherically perfect.

hayes, Aug 31, 2009 @ 15:13

Does she sound like the sort of person that carries post-it's and does smiley faces? I think it's quite clear that the letter would be written on personal (not company) headed notepaper, bringing out all possible combinations of letters she could feasibly, and more importantly honestly, write after her name in order to give the impression of academic achievement. You know BSc (Bronze Swimming certificate)... It would be written in fountain pen and sealed in an envelope with the tab just folded inside (not licked down).

hayes, Aug 31, 2009 @ 15:24

With this particular application of the ethic of reciprocity it seems to follow that Hayes is himself (or at least considers himself) "very attractive".

rich_t, Aug 31, 2009 @ 15:57

Everything in context, rich_t. It must have been easy for those that famously called upon it in days gone by. Most notably, the Ancient Greeks and Karl Popper: they were all ugly as sin, weren't they. This is one of the curses in the Age of Aquarius, as far as I'm concerned.

hayes, Aug 31, 2009 @ 16:38

 It happened twice to me that people were talking while I had chosen to be in a silent car - and I effectively intervened using sign language.  They just moved to another half-empty carriage.
But I would not feel this freedom on a crowded commuter train.



jasper, Aug 31, 2009 @ 19:29

 it happened to me but the woman was annoyed that we were speaking in English.  She just told us off just before she got off from the "learn French, if you want to speak loud on the train" . 

Zambra, Aug 31, 2009 @ 21:12

 

_Marina_...............Anyway, what bothered me in
the story -- correct me if I am wrong, Deano1uk -- was the feeling I got that
the complaining lady purposedly found a way of sending her message in some
agressive way, even if using the "I said excuse me" alibi. There are
*ALWAYS* *AT LEAST* two ways of saying the same thing, and one of them is
always friendlier. what a difference a smile makes.

I just don't get why people -- I am thinking worldwide here, regardless of
geography, nationality, age or gender, because i've seen it everywhere -- do
not take the friendly way as first option, as taking for granted that it just
won't work.

 

Kaki........................... _Marina_Becoze they feel guilty and they
provoke their own timidity. It is their way to handle a difficult (for them)
situation.

----------------------------------------

 

So then, how to communicate your need (silence in
the silent-carriage) in a non-violent way ?

The situation can be difficult and you
might feel guilty (Kaki) to ask for the silence you need.

It can become a stressful situation, the
stress building up the longer you wait, and the more you hesitate on the way to do
it.

How will the other party react : Ignore
your request ? Counterattack ? Accept your request ? Reply with sarcasm and
make you feel guilty, having dared asking the conversation to stop ?

 

You have to be a solid character not to fear a strong
reply. For exampe, when you cross Mat smoking a cigarette -  you will not get away with it easily...  

 

So, how would you communicate your need
(silence in the silent-carriage) in a non-violent way ?

jasper, Aug 31, 2009 @ 21:05

That's beautiful. I really do hope that was in Switzerland, not France or another French-speaking country... you know, in one single day you could get the same complaint with respect to three [or arguably four (ok, yes four)]  languages. I believe that three should be possible without even getting off the train.

hayes, Aug 31, 2009 @ 22:57

 we were speaking in English and we were in Switzerland, we weren't "loud" but I guess we were for Swiss standard :0)

Zambra, Aug 31, 2009 @ 23:08

 she was probably upset that she couldn't  listen in on your conversation.
you could have told her in french to learn english if she wants to listen in to other
people's conversations

epicure, Aug 31, 2009 @ 23:40

 Deano:

There are indeed these 'silent train cars', where folks ain't supposed to speak.

I've rarely seen it enforced tho, especially not in a crowded rush-hour train where anyway it's impossible to really sleep or relax. But yes, it does exist.

Next time, if we see each other on the quite car, we need to just shake hands, and exchange 'hey buddy, how you doing!' notes.

Nir



Nir Ofek, Sep 1, 2009 @ 09:12

 Hi Marina et al - It wasn't necessariliy the "shock of my life" but you know when someone does something really embarrasing and you get that feeling in your gut and think "oh please no!"  Well that describes it more accurately.  But yes, what I said in my first post, was what she said word for word and loud enough for most to hear.  An extra bit of info that I skipped was that she even looked around for public approval or support, she caught my eye but I was still saying "oh please no" in my head, so my expression must have matched, so she turned to seek approval elsewhere... but all heads were down... and no doubt there was a collective thought vibrating in the ether..."Zut alore... sil vous plait, Non!"

Guess what though!!!!  I rode the same carriage today armed with my new found knowledge of 'zee rooles' - And for most the distance from Nyon to Geneva an American man and woman sitting opposite each other were in conversation, early 30's, business looking, she was attractive with nice straight blonde hair.  I was about 8 rows away and could hear them.  It was mainly the woman speaking (yes that's a whole new forum topic) but no-one 'shushed' her.  Something to do with the blonde hair??  Maybe.  But more than likely everyone this morning was normal and didn't give a rats arse about a rule that's ridiculously difficult to enforce or police in an international city of many cultures, beliefs and languages, except for the vidgulance of perdantic busy-bodies and a single sign discretely written in Swiss German.  Imagine the same situation in China and a local passenger shouts to a foreigner "oi, quiet" and points to a vertical row of chinese characters!! 

Anyway, no-one really seemed to mind the Americans this morning.  Funny though, the guy next to me was reading the paper and the guy opposite him was on a lap top with headphones.  Then as we slowed into Geneva the headphone guy suddenly threw a newspaper at the other guys head.  For a split second I thought I was in England and got ready for the usual early morning punch up over nothing... but turned out it was his mate... they'd just been observing 'zee rooles' and not spoke to each other all the way!  Bless!

Deano1uk, Sep 1, 2009 @ 08:47

 Thanks Nir... How about we speak in song like a West End musical?  Says nothing about singing!  I'm still ok with morse code if you know your dit dit dar dars... we could tap out the latest goss with our feet!
Deano1uk, Sep 1, 2009 @ 09:26

 I don't know if this really fits into this thread, but since it's a case of someone taking the liberty of trying to restore the order I kind of  feel that it does:

I experienced some rather shocking and aggressive "telling off"  behaviour from someone today on the way to the swimming pool, as I was cycling on the pavement. Sure, I know it's wrong, but there was road work going on in the cycling lane, and since I'm 8 months pregnant, I'm a bit cautious about cycling in the middle of lunch time traffic. And since the pavement was pretty much empty I chose to cycle there instead. Well, when I say empty, I mean empty apart from a lady with a walking stick, standing in a doorway, starring angrily at me as I approached her. Judging from her facial expression, I expected to be shouted at as I passed her. But what I didn't expect was that she would raise her walking stick, swing it in the air and hit me hard on my back as I passed her! Obviously, she also shouted something French at me while doing this. It wasn't like she gently poked me or anything - no, she hit me as hard as she could, and it really hurt! If i'd been a bit better at French I would've stopped and confronted her. But since I had no clue about how to express what I wanted to say in French (plus I feared that she would hit me again, perhaps this time on the belly, who knows?), I did the least productive thing and started swearing at her in Swedish instead as I slowly cycled away. I was both shocked, furious and in pain, and if I ever see this woman again on the pavement, she can bet that I will cycle up in front of her, just to piss her off (but just over a walking stick's distance away)... Viloence certainly isn't the best way to make someone do as you want!

Maybe my moral compass is way off, but in my opinion beating strangers because they break the order is a greater crime than cycling on the pavement.

charlotta, Sep 1, 2009 @ 20:01

Hey Deano,

That was me and my two colleagues on the train! I liked the appreciation of the British fashion you noted!! Your post has made for thoroughly enjoyable reading in the office this morning! I loved that she had no ticket but yet as you said had the audacity to tell US off! Brilliant! We saw the snobby lady again today but luckily we were allowed to talk as we were in a normal carriage so there wasnt a lot she could say! We don't think we were being rude just having a chat as you said. If you see us on the train come and say hello and we can have some idle chit chat.

:)    
Rebecca M, Sep 2, 2009 @ 08:52

 The men in question...
Rebecca M, Sep 2, 2009 @ 09:37

Charlotta: " in my opinion beating strangers because they break the order is a greater crime than cycling on the pavement."

Oh so being a foreigner and a biker positions you above the law and entitles you to freely endanger others???  What is this crooked social philosophy?

You are WRONG lady! Maybe your "compass" is belated by your hormones but nevertheless you are WRONG. Law is applicable to ALL within national borders, be it Russian border, US or Swiss. When I stay in other countries (which is very often) I am compelled to abide by local laws whether I like it or not. As a pedestrian I feel threatened by insane bikers rushing past me. I really think the sidewalk is there to protect me against such dangers and bikers have no right to endanger me. You were clearly breaking the law by using the sidewalk instead of the lane, and you did it knowingly. Roadworks are no excuse for this. What the old bitch did is also unlawful because none is allowed to aggress anyone. Period   

...and you are lucky bdw, if I were her I would have stuck the cane between your wheels to see how it feels lol

Gentlman4evr, Sep 2, 2009 @ 10:15

At this juncture, I would reiterate all points ever made about not feeding the trolls.

hayes, Sep 2, 2009 @ 10:37

 Gentlman4evr (do you btw know what the English word 'gentleman' means? It means the sort of men who don't stick cains in pregnat women's bike wheels):

"Oh so being a foreigner and a biker positions you above the law and entitles you to freely endanger others??? "
If you had read my post properly, you would have seen that I wrote that the pavement was empty apart from a woman standing still in a doorway. Hence, I did not "endanger" anyone! And if you had seen me cycle, you would know that I am certainly not a danger to anyone - I probably cycle more slowly than most people walk nowadays!
And what has me being a foreigner to do with this? Do you think that I wouldn't have done the same thing if I was in my home country? Where in my post do you see me write that? Or is it just an assumption you're making because I happen to be a foreigner? Also, I didn't mention anywhere in my post that I think that I'm "above the law" because I ride a bike. On the contrary, I mentioned that I know it's wrong, but in this case I thought that it would be ok since I didn't actually risk anyone's safety (well, apart from my own as it turned out).

Sure, I know that laws are there to follow, but sometimes you have to make a judgement concerning which action out of two would lead to the lesser potential harm for both yourself and other people involved - that is what's called moral  thinking. Just following a law for the sake of it without reflecting on the consequences is not the same thing as having a functioning "moral compass". In this case I was choosing between potentially falling over in the street  on my bike - I don't know if you've ever seen or talked to a highly pregnant woman, but when you're huge as a balloon, your centre of gravity changes, your reactions slow down and if you fall... well, it's not yourself you worry about, it's your future child. And these hormones that you so gentleman-like bring up in your rant over pregnant women, they make the protection of your child a priority. In this case a priority over.... well, cycling on an empty pavement. So, there's the reasoning behind my law breaking. It has nothing to do with me thinking I'm above the law because I'm on my bike, because I'm from another country or because I'm pregnant.

I don't really know what sparked your rage to this extent, if it's because you have something against foreigners, pregnant women, people cycling on the pavement, just generally people breaking rules or perhaps all of the above. But in any case, I would say that your finishing line ("...and you are lucky bdw, if I were her I would have stuck the cane between your wheels to see how it feels lol") was way off. It doesn't in any way make you seem like a smarter or more sympathetic person, and most of all: it says all I need to know about your "moral compass".


charlotta, Sep 2, 2009 @ 10:46

 haha the usual pathetic rant " because you have something against foreigners".. whenever a Swiss voices his point he's racist-obscurantist-limited-naive-stupid... haha!

Well you can have the opinion you want but you still do not have the privilege to twist the law according to your own will... I have the right not to risk my life using sidewalks, period!

Gentlman4evr, Sep 2, 2009 @ 11:28

 One thing I notice from this discussions and a few others ... we sometimes forget "common sense" and the "spirit" of the law when applying laws .. If we strictly apply certain laws, we would have ended up with more chaos than by using common sense ... bikes are forbidden from streets ... right then let us ban all toddlers/young 3t-o 6 year olds from using bikes on pavements .. applying the letter of the law .. it says wheeled objects .. so let's ban prams and buggies so even babies can't be pushed around on pavements. Hey .. why not stop disabled people's vehicles while we're at it since the law implies it is wheeled vehicles and allows them to drive on the road .. so they can't use their "vehicles" even if "human-powered" rather than automatic ? Charlotta may have been "breaking" the law, she should have not being doing that .. but ... the old lady's crime is actually a bigger crime as should Charlotta had fallen off, she could have lost her baby .. attempted murder then ? come on guys .. especially Gentlman4evr .. a bit of common sense ... ? When this old lady starts needing a disability "mobility vehicle" .. can we do the same to her for using  a wheeled vehicle ?

Re speaking on trains .. common sense too ...and manners don't cost a thing - I'm always suprised at how people become agressive before trying the pleasent way first ...treat those the way you would like to be treated ... unless you want to fight all the time .. then you'll meet your match some day !

Details are important ... but every so often we need to rise above things .. relax .. and look at the "bigger" picture ..what are your core values and the core values of society .. why was a law made. Common sense and the "spirit" of the law :)

Enjoy this lovely week and smile :) (and gentlman4evr ... relax .. and your intentions might be good but diplomacy and pleasantness is free .. even for a banker gentlman4evr..plus we should remember that everyone makes mistakes .. that's why they invented a rubber at the end of a pencil ! as that famous philosopher Monsier Simpson once said  :):)

Sporty, Sep 2, 2009 @ 12:05

 Rebecca... and guys in the picture... excellent photo!!  Yes, I recognise you now and can confirm that you two are indeed the law breaking scoundrals!!

What a great full circle this has come... lots of opinions, lots of interest and finally the men in question to prove I wasn't making it all up in my half asleep dreamworld that morning!

I'll give you a shout and say hi on the platform.  Someone even wants to do a video report now.... I can see I'll probably be made out to be the whinging British business man and old lady gob-shite the National hero protecting everything that Switzerland stands for....Lot of silly roooooles!

Ok everyone, I better get on with my day job... thanks for the comments - In conclusion (if anyone is interested in my humble opinion) - I've shifted my view to be 'ok' with the 'silent carriage'  but maybe there should be international signage such as picture signs at the top of each window showing headphones and two 'talking' silhouette faces with a 'no' type cross through it.  Then if someone should be doing either and someone else apposes, they can 'silently' and perhaps with a chummy smile, point to the picture... smile again and whisper 'merci' or 'danke'... or 'cheers mate!'  I think that would make it easier for those offended to intervene if they felt strongly enough about it.  I also agree with the concept of the 'silent carriage' because it appears to be important to a lot of people for various reasons, but I still think it's a tough rule to enforce during commuter hour and I think during this commuter hour most people, like me, walk to the far end of the platform to get the last carriage because there's more chance of getting a seat rather than they know peace and tranquility awaits.  On any type of public transport Id rather be sitting down, even if next to Mr Romanian accordian man screeching out a crap gypsy tune, than stood up bouncing between everyone's armpits in silence, anyday!  
Deano1uk, Sep 2, 2009 @ 12:17

Gentlman4evr

You may feel we all need to have total respect for the Swiss law but you fail to take account of the circumstances that led to Charlotta's riding the bike on the pavement and the consideration she used before choosing to do so, ie it was empty.   Is there not an issue of interpretation of the law here? 
   
The old lady committed a much more serious crime by lashing out with her stick than Charlotta did by riding a bike slowly on an empty pavement.   The woman's action could have startled or inured Charlotta to the extent that she could have fallen off the bike and badly injured herself and she could even have lost her unborn child.  

Hopefully you can re-think your reply and realise that the woman's aggressive behaviour and your own proposals for dealing with this situation simply cannot be justified.  

mozambique, Sep 2, 2009 @ 14:27

 Geez! Talk about beating a dead horse. Apparently, someone somehow decided it to be a good idea to have 'silent' compartments on certain trains, and two nitwits were too ignorant to, literally, read the signs. Someone decides to speak up in what most definitely wasn't her native language, paired with the inherent awkwardness such situations entail. Now half the board feels compelled to jump in and defend everyone's constitutional right to being an obnoxious tit.

To quote another well-tried chestnut, "when in Rome, do as the Romans do." Or simply move to another car.

Mike
rmike, Sep 2, 2009 @ 15:13

Mike.. people are not computers ..having a one or zero mode.. forums are made to voice whatever we like, and to learn how to live in society by seeing how other people think, with different personalities and views ... you have the pedantic, the relaxed, obsessive, sympathetic, etc .. where else would you see different characters. Yes, I agree that if we don't like something, we move, but how else would you explain to people why things are there.. in place .. if you were a student and asked and I ended up saying " That's how it is ..live with it" without knowing the logic behind it, we'd be creating robots with no creativity  ! Live, let live .. and learn from others .. listening is a good skill ! If we appreciate others' views, even if we disagree with others, at least we'd live in peace ! I'd become a bit worried if people started criticising/insulting everything and saying home was better for the MAJORITY of things .. then I'd say .. leave if you're not happy ....but people need to look at the negative AND positive and enjoy the positives - the grass is greener on the other side ....-anyway my 2-pence worth

Relax and enjoy the intellectual cross-fertilisation happening here !



Sporty, Sep 2, 2009 @ 17:01

There is the issue about the 'crime', and the issue about the vigilante retribution. I propose a 1 to 10 seriousness-of-offense scale:

Charlotta cycling slowly on an empty pavement: 1 out of 10
Striking a pregnant woman on a bike with a stick: 8 out of 10
Being so up-tight that you won't cycle slowly on an empty pavement: 2 out of 10

Talking in a silent carriage: 3 out of 20
Telling talkers in silent carriages to shut up politely: 0 out of 20
Telling the above in an obnoxious and condecending manner: 2 out of 20

So I think that proves that Charlotta wins by at least an innings, and that the old woman just scrapes thru on penalties against Deano1UKs new friends. Number don't lie!

rich_t, Sep 2, 2009 @ 17:34

 @Sporty

Well, groovy, dude. I thought it became clear from the first couple of postings what had conspired on that fateful day. The rest turned into speculation and projection, interspersed with the usual battle of t^hwits.

Listening goes both ways, and the outcome might not be to your liking all the time. But when you get the chance, suck it up. You just might find out that, at the end of the day, the scales are back in balance.

Mike


rmike, Sep 2, 2009 @ 17:37

 Well, I certainly wouldn't have been happy if a policeman had appeared at the scene and made me pay for such a silly crime that so obviously didn't harm anyone, and I would probably have tried to get out of the situation  by getting their sympathy, but since that rarely works with cops, I would've paid the fine and tried to forget about it. They have the law on their side after all, and I broke it. And I certainly wouldn't have made a fuzz about it on this thread, because when it comes to right and wrong, there's not much to argue about there.

 However, if this cop had given me a beating with a stick instead of writing me a fine, I would most definitely have been upset! Because physical violence is not a punishment that is proportional to the crime I was committing, whether executed by the police or by a civil citizen.  Being shouted at I can take; I frankly wouldn't have cared much if this woman had just shouted something angrily at me since I understood why she was upset with me. But taking the liberty to hit me..... no, that's a completely different matter!
(Perhaps I should mention that I witnessed a cyclist pass two cops on the pavement a while ago here in Geneva, and guess what.... they completely ignored him! So apparently, it's not such a great crime in the eyes of the law after all. At least not in these particular sets of eyes.)

Gentlemanwhatever: The only reason why I even mentioned the word 'foreigner' was because you yourself mentioned the fact that I'm a foreigner as a reason why I thought I stood above the law... so... maybe you should think before you write if you want to appear as a friendly and non-racist Swiss person. And maybe you should read your own posts before you defend them.

Rich_t: Thanks for bringing some clarity into the situation!  Numbers make everything so much easier to grasp...

charlotta, Sep 2, 2009 @ 18:52

So I was reading through this thread, half amused how different
people perceive different habits ... blabla ...



Then, incredibile dictu, I read the inhabitant of a
civilized European country wanted to stick a cane in a heavily pregnant
woman's
bike wheels to see how it feels, "lol"??? Is this
possible? I'm always shocked by these sudden outbreaks of aggression.
The old woman may be excused by obvious mental insanity and I feel pity
for her. But that comment is beyond. Sorry.

Gudrun, Sep 5, 2009 @ 19:39

"Then, incredibile dictu, I read the inhabitant of a
civilized European country wanted to stick a cane in a heavily pregnant
woman's
bike wheels to see how it feels, "lol"??? Is this

possible?"

No, it's not. Re-read the thread.

Mike

rmike, Sep 5, 2009 @ 21:13

 Retracted. Just followed my own advice and read up on the part I didn't bother following because it had nothing to do with Dino's story. My oh my...

Mike

rmike, Sep 5, 2009 @ 21:47

At this juncture, I would reiterate all points ever made about not feeding the trolls.
hayes, Sep 6, 2009 @ 02:26

Hi rmike, yes it`s getting complicated, we have 3 stories here already ...

I was referring to the comment Sept 2, 10:15



Still cannot believe the last phrase which goes


"...and you are lucky bdw, if I were her I would have stuck the cane between your wheels to see how it feels lol"
Gudrun, Sep 6, 2009 @ 03:33

 Jockeying for position again? Nah, this one has run its course. R.I.P.

Mike

rmike, Sep 6, 2009 @ 13:44

...mebs...

I was riding my bike today and I this thread popped into my mind so I thought I'd try a quick experiment. I went up on the pavement for a bit to see if gentleman4evr would ram his cane in the spokes of a 1m90, muscle-bound tortoise. Nobody did that, so I conclude one of the following:

1. I didn't pass him.
2. I did pass him but he was too chicken.

My money is on 2.

hayes, Sep 6, 2009 @ 18:04

This was a brilliant idea, hayes.



I'm as well an occasional pavement-cyclist, not very muscle-bound though, hence a bit intimidated by the thought of a potential encounter with
gentleman4evr.



I hope my experience with stray dogs in Eastern Europe will help. These
creatures always try to stick their paws in bike wheels. Any cyclist will agree that the best strategy to save one's neck is:

1. cycle as fast as possible, try to escape

2. if they catch up, continue cycling fast, have a stick with you and
detain them with the stick from getting close enough to put anything in
the wheels



I don't know how fast "human" beings run, normally 1. should do.
Unless the cyclist is pregnant, but then it's not a fair game anyhow.
Gudrun, Sep 7, 2009 @ 02:15

 Lynn:

Good counter example, and I liked the way you presented it too. Thanks!

Nir

Nir Ofek, Sep 11, 2009 @ 21:56

 When there is a lot of traffic on wheels I always prefer to bike on the pedestrian pavement, ready to brake .....pedestrians have priority ;-)
I never had negative comments from these very pedestrians - until a few weeks ago, I cycled near Plan-les-Ouates, very wide pavement, no pedestrians in far sight - and a man waving at me from the door of a café 30m up front  - and me waving back to him, until I hear him yell, he wanted me to stop biking in front of him.  I just ignored him.., supposed the dog was chained..


jasper, Sep 11, 2009 @ 22:28

Saturday 19h30, 13th bottle of Chateau Minuty this afternoon on the Lake, my handful of derisive buddies compel me to respond to that dumbell of hayes... dammit! who invented wireless internet on boats??  oook after 2h of hilarious beggng, I guess I better humor them to get over with it...   sorry my very dear slap-happy-hayes that you couldn't cross my path. The fact is that I extremely rarely walk, and if I do that it's only to reach my XKR (yeah i have that thing for british cars). Not usually carrying any cane/whip/paddle with me, I'm afraid I wouldnt be able to alleviate your craving for castigation. But if you wish I can get you acquainted with a friend of mine, a natural BDSM-master. Has his own dungeon in the  nuclear-shelter at home. A pure marvel for the part I understood: iron St-Andrew-cross (wow must be cold), leather straps, restraints of all kind, head harnesses and things I can't fathom the use. Oh by the way, this gentleman is a pure-bred Irish... do you fancy pure-malt drinkers? Message me in private if this might suit your pleasure...

Gentlman4evr, Sep 12, 2009 @ 18:40

That's beautiful, man.

hayes, Dec 4, 2009 @ 16:50

I find her response quite ridiculous too, but I can do you one better.

 

A couple of months ago I was on the train in the Netherlands and appearantly it was a silent carriage. There was a boy of about 9 years with his parents and they were quietly talking. I mean, what can you expect of a 9 yo. He was behaving himself perfectly. Then there is this old man and he asks the inspector to tell the parents of the boy to keep him quiet!!

I was completely shocked!

Jildou van den Bosch, Dec 22, 2009 @ 18:53