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Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal

Voters in Switzerland have narrowly approved a rightwing proposal to curb immigration.


Anyone who is better informed can comment on what happens next?

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Voters in Switzerland have narrowly approved a rightwing proposal to curb immigration.


Anyone who is better informed can comment on what happens next?


Paul DFeb 9, 2014 @ 17:15
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 1

GLOCALS MEMBERS PACK YOUR BAGS!! 

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GLOCALS MEMBERS PACK YOUR BAGS!! 


Angie S, Feb 9, 2014 @ 17:54
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 2

This will not affect expats already there. There will be an immigration limit and this will probably not be applied before 2-3 years.


Therefore don't worry about this unless you live in a foreign country and consider coming to Switzerland in 2017.


For the time being it is too early to say which effects this will have but don't go panicking.

The text you are quoting:

This will not affect expats already there. There will be an immigration limit and this will probably not be applied before 2-3 years.


Therefore don't worry about this unless you live in a foreign country and consider coming to Switzerland in 2017.


For the time being it is too early to say which effects this will have but don't go panicking.


Richard B, Feb 9, 2014 @ 18:08
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 3

It's too early to say whether the proposal was accepted or not.  For now, figures for the OUI are 50.3%, which is too strict a margin to be accepted as truth -- in fact, 0.3% is much smaller than the poll error.


Let's wait to see what the definitive results are. 

The text you are quoting:

It's too early to say whether the proposal was accepted or not.  For now, figures for the OUI are 50.3%, which is too strict a margin to be accepted as truth -- in fact, 0.3% is much smaller than the poll error.


Let's wait to see what the definitive results are. 


TheOmegaMan, Feb 9, 2014 @ 18:26
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 4

Here is another article: http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_news/Swiss_agree_to_curb_immigration_and_rethink_EU_deal_.html?cid=37877780


and the BBC's take:


bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26108597http://www.


One should not minimize the importance of this vote. A lot will depend upon how the European Union responds.


It is also extremely interesting to look at how the Swiss German cantons voted versus the Swiss Romandy ones.


This article details various previous anti-immigration measures. http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_news/Anti-migration_initiatives_have_long_tradition.html?cid=37911176&link=ers

The text you are quoting:

Here is another article: http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_news/Swiss_agree_to_curb_immigration_and_rethink_EU_deal_.html?cid=37877780


and the BBC's take:


bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26108597http://www.


One should not minimize the importance of this vote. A lot will depend upon how the European Union responds.


It is also extremely interesting to look at how the Swiss German cantons voted versus the Swiss Romandy ones.


This article details various previous anti-immigration measures. http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_news/Anti-migration_initiatives_have_long_tradition.html?cid=37911176&link=ers


Translator, Feb 9, 2014 @ 18:29
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 5

It's too early to say whether the proposal was accepted or not.  For now, figures for the OUI are 50.3%, which is too strict a margin to be accepted as truth -- in fact, 0.3% is much smaller than the poll error.

Let's wait to see what the definitive results are. 


Feb 9, 14 18:26

No, it's already been called. This is not a projection but the final vote.

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No, it's already been called. This is not a projection but the final vote.


Translator, Feb 9, 2014 @ 18:44
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 6

The results are definitive and the Federal Councils Simonnetta Sommaruga and Didier Burkhalter have already commented on the results.

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The results are definitive and the Federal Councils Simonnetta Sommaruga and Didier Burkhalter have already commented on the results.


Dorothy W, Feb 9, 2014 @ 18:43
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 7

Here is the link to the official Swiss Federal Administration announcement on the final vote: http://www.news.admin.ch/message/index.html?lang=en&msg-id=51948


Change in immigration system: Yes to popular initiative aimed at stopping mass immigration
Bern, 09.02.2014 - The Swiss population has adopted a popular initiative aimed at stopping mass immigration. This brings with it a change of system in Switzerland’s immigration policy. The new constitutional provisions require that immigration be restricted by means of quantitative limits and quotas. The Federal Council will set to work on implementing these without delay.

The new constitutional provisions require that residence permits for foreign nationals be restricted using quantitative limits and quotas. These limits and quotas will apply to all permits covered by legislation on foreign nationals, including cross-border commuters and asylum seekers, and must be geared towards Switzerland's overall economic interests. Businesses must give Swiss nationals priority when hiring staff.


The new constitutional text does not specify how high these quotas should be, nor does it specify who should set and allocate them and according to what criteria. These details now need to be defined at the legislative level. The new constitutional provisions stipulate that the Federal Council and parliament have three years to implement the new system.


Pivotal decision with far-reaching consequences 
The Federal Council interprets the outcome of this referendum as a reflection of unease with regard to population growth in recent years. Speaking in front of the media on Sunday, Federal Councillor Simonetta Sommaruga, head of the Federal Department of Justice and Police, described the outcome as a pivotal decision with far-reaching consequences. The constitutional text is formulated in a very open manner. The Federal Council will submit a proposal on its implementation to parliament as soon as possible. As the new constitutional text runs contrary to the agreement on the free movement of persons, the Federal Council will also enter into discussion with the relevant bodies of the EU and its member states, in order to discuss the next steps and open negotiations. The constitutional provisions also allow a period of three years for these negotiations.


The President of the Swiss Confederation, Didier Burkhalter, explained on Sunday that the Federal Council will explore ways in which Switzerland's relations with the EU can be put on a new footing. At the same time, however, the president stressed that the agreement on the free movement of persons and the other bilateral agreements will remain in place until a new legal status has been established. The Federal Council will now analyse what consequences the change of direction resulting from today's decision will have on Switzerland's European policy.


Address for enquiries:
Guido Balmer, Head of Iinformation FDJP, +41 31 322 40 40
Jean-Marc Crevoisier, Head of Information FDFA, +41 79 763 84 10
The text you are quoting:

Here is the link to the official Swiss Federal Administration announcement on the final vote: http://www.news.admin.ch/message/index.html?lang=en&msg-id=51948


Change in immigration system: Yes to popular initiative aimed at stopping mass immigration
Bern, 09.02.2014 - The Swiss population has adopted a popular initiative aimed at stopping mass immigration. This brings with it a change of system in Switzerland’s immigration policy. The new constitutional provisions require that immigration be restricted by means of quantitative limits and quotas. The Federal Council will set to work on implementing these without delay.

The new constitutional provisions require that residence permits for foreign nationals be restricted using quantitative limits and quotas. These limits and quotas will apply to all permits covered by legislation on foreign nationals, including cross-border commuters and asylum seekers, and must be geared towards Switzerland's overall economic interests. Businesses must give Swiss nationals priority when hiring staff.


The new constitutional text does not specify how high these quotas should be, nor does it specify who should set and allocate them and according to what criteria. These details now need to be defined at the legislative level. The new constitutional provisions stipulate that the Federal Council and parliament have three years to implement the new system.


Pivotal decision with far-reaching consequences 
The Federal Council interprets the outcome of this referendum as a reflection of unease with regard to population growth in recent years. Speaking in front of the media on Sunday, Federal Councillor Simonetta Sommaruga, head of the Federal Department of Justice and Police, described the outcome as a pivotal decision with far-reaching consequences. The constitutional text is formulated in a very open manner. The Federal Council will submit a proposal on its implementation to parliament as soon as possible. As the new constitutional text runs contrary to the agreement on the free movement of persons, the Federal Council will also enter into discussion with the relevant bodies of the EU and its member states, in order to discuss the next steps and open negotiations. The constitutional provisions also allow a period of three years for these negotiations.


The President of the Swiss Confederation, Didier Burkhalter, explained on Sunday that the Federal Council will explore ways in which Switzerland's relations with the EU can be put on a new footing. At the same time, however, the president stressed that the agreement on the free movement of persons and the other bilateral agreements will remain in place until a new legal status has been established. The Federal Council will now analyse what consequences the change of direction resulting from today's decision will have on Switzerland's European policy.


Address for enquiries:
Guido Balmer, Head of Iinformation FDJP, +41 31 322 40 40
Jean-Marc Crevoisier, Head of Information FDFA, +41 79 763 84 10
Translator, Feb 9, 2014 @ 18:45
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 8

Very interesting thread. The UDC has long been known for its racist views, however with this anti-immigration initiative, it would seem to have struck a chord with many Swiss nationals who would ordinarily never have voted UDC.  Playing devil's advocate here, I can understand to a certain extent the fear of mass immigration, Switzerland is a very small country and 80,000 immigrants a year is not sustainable in the long run. Even the Green party are for regulating the number of people coming over as it is having an adverse affect on the environment as more and more houses are needed. When the bilateral agreements were signed, no one of course envisaged the Euro crisis resulting in the near collapse of the European union leading to a large influx of people from the EEC to Switzerland. However, we must not forget that Switzerland has greatly benefited from their economical access to the markets in the European union which has helped the country to prosper so Switzerland cannot have it both ways. What is needed is some form of compromise. 


There was a very interesting discussion on RTS1 a few days ago on the subject of the vote on immigration - see below:


http://www.infrarouge.ch/ir/2058-special-votation-immigration-trop-massive


One of the factors which strongly influenced the Swiss to vote for this initiative was the 'dumping salarial' whereby greedy employers prefer to employ foreign workers who will work for practically nothing rather than locals who cost ore. This happens a lot on construction sites. 


It would be interesting to hear the viewpoint of Swiss Glocal members on this very controversial subject. 


 

The text you are quoting:

Very interesting thread. The UDC has long been known for its racist views, however with this anti-immigration initiative, it would seem to have struck a chord with many Swiss nationals who would ordinarily never have voted UDC.  Playing devil's advocate here, I can understand to a certain extent the fear of mass immigration, Switzerland is a very small country and 80,000 immigrants a year is not sustainable in the long run. Even the Green party are for regulating the number of people coming over as it is having an adverse affect on the environment as more and more houses are needed. When the bilateral agreements were signed, no one of course envisaged the Euro crisis resulting in the near collapse of the European union leading to a large influx of people from the EEC to Switzerland. However, we must not forget that Switzerland has greatly benefited from their economical access to the markets in the European union which has helped the country to prosper so Switzerland cannot have it both ways. What is needed is some form of compromise. 


There was a very interesting discussion on RTS1 a few days ago on the subject of the vote on immigration - see below:


http://www.infrarouge.ch/ir/2058-special-votation-immigration-trop-massive


One of the factors which strongly influenced the Swiss to vote for this initiative was the 'dumping salarial' whereby greedy employers prefer to employ foreign workers who will work for practically nothing rather than locals who cost ore. This happens a lot on construction sites. 


It would be interesting to hear the viewpoint of Swiss Glocal members on this very controversial subject. 


 


delseta9_, Feb 9, 2014 @ 19:18
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 9

Swiss has changed a lot! Now they have fake polices, Crimes are sky rocketed. You can can't walk safely at night time in geneva alone. Most employers don't want to hire swiss people because they are "lazy", "uneducated", not proper for the jobs "Most of all they ask for proper salary and don't want to work like slaves". Most immigratns "Non productive" are turning swiss same as they did with their countires. So what else could you expect from them!


 


 

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Swiss has changed a lot! Now they have fake polices, Crimes are sky rocketed. You can can't walk safely at night time in geneva alone. Most employers don't want to hire swiss people because they are "lazy", "uneducated", not proper for the jobs "Most of all they ask for proper salary and don't want to work like slaves". Most immigratns "Non productive" are turning swiss same as they did with their countires. So what else could you expect from them!


 


 


brad h, Feb 9, 2014 @ 20:25
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 10

This is unfortunately very true. Not 100% applicable in all cases but there is a very high percentage of "under educated" Swiss (due to the educational system promoting apprenticeships over university education). This leaves a lot of Swiss people discontent because they want the high salary but the job market is very competitive with all the EU expats who come from countries with over educated people. 


Your average Swiss from the middle of the country who finished his apprenticeship in finance with top recommendations will probably not a job. He will be up against French, Spanish, UK etc people who graduated from top institutions WITH work experience. 


My fiance is Swiss German, he isn't shocked by this vote. Swiss German Cantons have been fiercely anti foreigners for many years. The problem here is that you have people who have a very limited view of the economic ramifications this immigration caps bring. Again....the problem is education. Under educated and easily manipulated.  


 

The text you are quoting:

This is unfortunately very true. Not 100% applicable in all cases but there is a very high percentage of "under educated" Swiss (due to the educational system promoting apprenticeships over university education). This leaves a lot of Swiss people discontent because they want the high salary but the job market is very competitive with all the EU expats who come from countries with over educated people. 


Your average Swiss from the middle of the country who finished his apprenticeship in finance with top recommendations will probably not a job. He will be up against French, Spanish, UK etc people who graduated from top institutions WITH work experience. 


My fiance is Swiss German, he isn't shocked by this vote. Swiss German Cantons have been fiercely anti foreigners for many years. The problem here is that you have people who have a very limited view of the economic ramifications this immigration caps bring. Again....the problem is education. Under educated and easily manipulated.  


 


Angie S, Feb 9, 2014 @ 20:38
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 11

Very sad for Switzerland. Ashamed to be Swiss...


 

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Very sad for Switzerland. Ashamed to be Swiss...


 


Stefano R, Feb 9, 2014 @ 21:29
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 12

Feels like this could have serious implications, but I don't understand exactly what the new rules say. Is someone able to understand the original law text and explain it here in simple words?

The text you are quoting:

Feels like this could have serious implications, but I don't understand exactly what the new rules say. Is someone able to understand the original law text and explain it here in simple words?


Nir Ofek, Feb 9, 2014 @ 22:22
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 13

Swiss has changed a lot! Now they have fake polices, Crimes are sky rocketed. You can can't walk safely at night time in geneva alone. Most employers don't want to hire swiss people because they are "lazy", "uneducated", not proper for the jobs "Most of all they ask for proper salary and don't want to work like slaves". Most immigratns "Non productive" are turning swiss same as they did with their countires. So what else could you expect from them!

 

 


Feb 9, 14 20:25

Brad, start expressing yourself in plain English before criticizing your host country.


Quoting that "most employers don't want to hire Swiss people because the are "lazy", "uneducated" and "not proper for the jobs" is really an insult.


It is this type of despising attitude which cause some Swiss people to vote UDC. 


I am not ashamed to be Swiss as I did not vote yes to this particular object.


Should all the US citizen be ashamed for their ancestors killing the native Indians, or French for their colonies in the French caribbeans. 


Stop reacting with your emotions and start using your brain.


Not all Germans are right-wing fanatics. Why should all the Swiss be? 


BTW can you tell me where your beautiful quotations come from?


 


 


 

The text you are quoting:

Brad, start expressing yourself in plain English before criticizing your host country.


Quoting that "most employers don't want to hire Swiss people because the are "lazy", "uneducated" and "not proper for the jobs" is really an insult.


It is this type of despising attitude which cause some Swiss people to vote UDC. 


I am not ashamed to be Swiss as I did not vote yes to this particular object.


Should all the US citizen be ashamed for their ancestors killing the native Indians, or French for their colonies in the French caribbeans. 


Stop reacting with your emotions and start using your brain.


Not all Germans are right-wing fanatics. Why should all the Swiss be? 


BTW can you tell me where your beautiful quotations come from?


 


 


 


Richard B, Feb 9, 2014 @ 22:23
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 14

Feels like this could have serious implications, but I don't understand exactly what the new rules say. Is someone able to understand the original law text and explain it here in simple words?


Feb 9, 14 22:22

Switzerland shall autonomously control all immigration. There shall be quotas for all types of permits for all foreigners, i.e. also for EU/EFTA citizens, incl. G permits (there have been no G permit quotas so far). The right to durable stay, family reunion and social security benefits can be limited.


The annual quotas shall be determined according to Switzerland's economic interest, and considering priority for employment of Swiss nationals.


International treaties defying the above may not be contracted.


International contracts contradicting the above (e.g. the AFMP) must be renegotiated within 3 years.


If the necessary implementation law will not be ready within 3 years, the Federal Council shall issue a temporary implementation regulation

The text you are quoting:

Switzerland shall autonomously control all immigration. There shall be quotas for all types of permits for all foreigners, i.e. also for EU/EFTA citizens, incl. G permits (there have been no G permit quotas so far). The right to durable stay, family reunion and social security benefits can be limited.


The annual quotas shall be determined according to Switzerland's economic interest, and considering priority for employment of Swiss nationals.


International treaties defying the above may not be contracted.


International contracts contradicting the above (e.g. the AFMP) must be renegotiated within 3 years.


If the necessary implementation law will not be ready within 3 years, the Federal Council shall issue a temporary implementation regulation


Stephanie D, Feb 9, 2014 @ 22:45
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 15

@Nir: There are no new rules at the moment but over the next three years, new policies will be put into place. These will certainly limit the number of EU citizens who can come live in CH, thus back-tracking on the free-movement principles in Europe.


These are sure to put a strain on the bilateral agreements, which took years to thrash out between the EU & CH. Switzerland's biggest market is the EU, so the implications will be two-fold.


Additionally, this becomes a precursor for similar policies in other parts of EU; for eg. that of David Cameron.

The text you are quoting:

@Nir: There are no new rules at the moment but over the next three years, new policies will be put into place. These will certainly limit the number of EU citizens who can come live in CH, thus back-tracking on the free-movement principles in Europe.


These are sure to put a strain on the bilateral agreements, which took years to thrash out between the EU & CH. Switzerland's biggest market is the EU, so the implications will be two-fold.


Additionally, this becomes a precursor for similar policies in other parts of EU; for eg. that of David Cameron.


Arun K V, Feb 9, 2014 @ 23:01
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 16

Well This all seems a Bit worrying, i will be made unemployed in June after 4.5 years due to a take over of my company and a closure of my office. 


Does anyone know if this would effect my ability to take another Job or my ability to bennifit from the Chomage (only if required of course)?

The text you are quoting:

Well This all seems a Bit worrying, i will be made unemployed in June after 4.5 years due to a take over of my company and a closure of my office. 


Does anyone know if this would effect my ability to take another Job or my ability to bennifit from the Chomage (only if required of course)?


adam b, Feb 9, 2014 @ 23:47
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 17

Adam: it is difficult to say. Clearly it will be more and more difficult for non-Swiss citizens to get jobs in Switzerland. However, it will take some time for Switzerland to put into place the new regulations. Until that moment, your rights should (hopefully) be unaffected.

The text you are quoting:

Adam: it is difficult to say. Clearly it will be more and more difficult for non-Swiss citizens to get jobs in Switzerland. However, it will take some time for Switzerland to put into place the new regulations. Until that moment, your rights should (hopefully) be unaffected.


TheOmegaMan, Feb 10, 2014 @ 00:02
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 18

ok thanks

The text you are quoting:

ok thanks


adam b, Feb 10, 2014 @ 00:12
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 19

it shows their 2 Switzerland :


on one hand, Zurich, Geneva and other cosmopolite cities where s the votation failed and on the other hand, the rest of the Switzerland, wich most of us expat,never heard about.


The swiss have the chance to express their state of mind, fears and wishes with votation but I m pretty sure, that if you have same votation in France, Italia, Spain and many other countries, the result will be the same. 


In crisis time, the usual reaction is protectionism, we have to understand it but also at same time, demonstrate why they should not be afraid and the value that foreigner bring to Switzerland. 


Actually, I would be interested to organize a peacefull march to Berne to show, that we, foreigners are a great asset for Swizerland and alos, we love being here...who s in?


 


 

The text you are quoting:

it shows their 2 Switzerland :


on one hand, Zurich, Geneva and other cosmopolite cities where s the votation failed and on the other hand, the rest of the Switzerland, wich most of us expat,never heard about.


The swiss have the chance to express their state of mind, fears and wishes with votation but I m pretty sure, that if you have same votation in France, Italia, Spain and many other countries, the result will be the same. 


In crisis time, the usual reaction is protectionism, we have to understand it but also at same time, demonstrate why they should not be afraid and the value that foreigner bring to Switzerland. 


Actually, I would be interested to organize a peacefull march to Berne to show, that we, foreigners are a great asset for Swizerland and alos, we love being here...who s in?


 


 


Tryky, Feb 10, 2014 @ 00:35
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 20

@Tryky, I dont think demonstration is the answer here, that would make the Swiss angry for they dont like it when foreigners come and demonstrate here. I guess its time to get to know the other side of Switzerland and also to learn the swiss language that brings a lot to integration.

The text you are quoting:

@Tryky, I dont think demonstration is the answer here, that would make the Swiss angry for they dont like it when foreigners come and demonstrate here. I guess its time to get to know the other side of Switzerland and also to learn the swiss language that brings a lot to integration.


Dorothy W, Feb 10, 2014 @ 03:19
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 21

There were quotas previously, is it not reverting to how it was?  I arrived in 2005 and then they had quotas hence EU people sometimes having to take an L permit for a year before being entitled to a B permit


I honestly have no idea if its going back to that system, or if new rules will be forced.


There was also talk of social system changes to non nationals, so what implications that has again are not very clear


I find the comments about the swiss being uneducated and lazy a bit wild and completely incorrect.  I can assure you there are not many people in Mcdonalds in the UK and states that will speak French or German but over here the number that speak multiple languages is pretty high!

The text you are quoting:

There were quotas previously, is it not reverting to how it was?  I arrived in 2005 and then they had quotas hence EU people sometimes having to take an L permit for a year before being entitled to a B permit


I honestly have no idea if its going back to that system, or if new rules will be forced.


There was also talk of social system changes to non nationals, so what implications that has again are not very clear


I find the comments about the swiss being uneducated and lazy a bit wild and completely incorrect.  I can assure you there are not many people in Mcdonalds in the UK and states that will speak French or German but over here the number that speak multiple languages is pretty high!


peaky, Feb 10, 2014 @ 07:52
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 22

it shows their 2 Switzerland :

on one hand, Zurich, Geneva and other cosmopolite cities where s the votation failed and on the other hand, the rest of the Switzerland, wich most of us expat,never heard about.

The swiss have the chance to express their state of mind, fears and wishes with votation but I m pretty sure, that if you have same votation in France, Italia, Spain and many other countries, the result will be the same. 

In crisis time, the usual reaction is protectionism, we have to understand it but also at same time, demonstrate why they should not be afraid and the value that foreigner bring to Switzerland. 

Actually, I would be interested to organize a peacefull march to Berne to show, that we, foreigners are a great asset for Swizerland and alos, we love being here...who s in?

 

 


Feb 10, 14 00:35

I agree: I you would have a direct democracy in other countries the results would be quite similar.


That are the consequences according to the Economist Intelligence Unit(www.eiu.com)


An imposition of limits on immigrants from the EU would invalidate not only the accord on free movement of people, but also Switzerland's other bilateral agreements with the EU (concerning technical barriers of trade, public procurement, agriculture, research, air traffic and transport).


The EU has confirmed that this wholesale invalidation of treaties would be the likely turn of events. It would represent an economic shock with unpredictable but undoubtedly large negative consequences. Talks on the future of bilateral relations resumed in 2013 and the treaties are to be renegotiated in 2014.

The text you are quoting:

I agree: I you would have a direct democracy in other countries the results would be quite similar.


That are the consequences according to the Economist Intelligence Unit(www.eiu.com)


An imposition of limits on immigrants from the EU would invalidate not only the accord on free movement of people, but also Switzerland's other bilateral agreements with the EU (concerning technical barriers of trade, public procurement, agriculture, research, air traffic and transport).


The EU has confirmed that this wholesale invalidation of treaties would be the likely turn of events. It would represent an economic shock with unpredictable but undoubtedly large negative consequences. Talks on the future of bilateral relations resumed in 2013 and the treaties are to be renegotiated in 2014.


rena, Feb 10, 2014 @ 09:17
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 23

As I posted earlier, as a Swiss, I'm very sad today and angry with the results. It's a face of Switzerland (rejection, fear...) I really despise even more so that the people who voted yes for the initiative probably never interact with foreigners or expats. Switzerland has benefited immensly from the EU deal in the past 10 years and I'm afraid of Europe's reaction. Having said this, I think protectionism is unfortunately becoming a general trend in Europe. If the French or English were to vote, I'm not sure the outcome would be any better... 


 

The text you are quoting:

As I posted earlier, as a Swiss, I'm very sad today and angry with the results. It's a face of Switzerland (rejection, fear...) I really despise even more so that the people who voted yes for the initiative probably never interact with foreigners or expats. Switzerland has benefited immensly from the EU deal in the past 10 years and I'm afraid of Europe's reaction. Having said this, I think protectionism is unfortunately becoming a general trend in Europe. If the French or English were to vote, I'm not sure the outcome would be any better... 


 


Stefano R, Feb 10, 2014 @ 09:21
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Post 24

I really do like the Swiss political system, with the referendums and the very low key role of top politicians. Even in this case where the majority went against the wishes of the government, they are very cool about pointing out that one of the basics of the Swiss system is that the people get their say and now the government must act upon the wishes of the people.


However, the liberal politicians have failed here and the system has shown one of its major weaknesses. Faced with the scary statistics diffused by the UDC and no counter proposition with its own statistics diffused by the left, a knee jerk reaction could be expected. The same outcome would be expected in any European country faced with change on that scale, and it would be the same sectors of the community that voted the same way.


The weakness of the system is (as for the US presidency sometimes) that 50.3 % Yes means 49.7% No. So now Switzerland will now act for the next 3 years to undo the bilateral agreements and re-introduce permit quotas, something which nearly half of the population, including the majority in all the cantons at my end of the country, do not want.

The text you are quoting:

I really do like the Swiss political system, with the referendums and the very low key role of top politicians. Even in this case where the majority went against the wishes of the government, they are very cool about pointing out that one of the basics of the Swiss system is that the people get their say and now the government must act upon the wishes of the people.


However, the liberal politicians have failed here and the system has shown one of its major weaknesses. Faced with the scary statistics diffused by the UDC and no counter proposition with its own statistics diffused by the left, a knee jerk reaction could be expected. The same outcome would be expected in any European country faced with change on that scale, and it would be the same sectors of the community that voted the same way.


The weakness of the system is (as for the US presidency sometimes) that 50.3 % Yes means 49.7% No. So now Switzerland will now act for the next 3 years to undo the bilateral agreements and re-introduce permit quotas, something which nearly half of the population, including the majority in all the cantons at my end of the country, do not want.


Richard H, Feb 10, 2014 @ 10:29
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 25

The problem I feel is that the UDC have used very "clever" propaganda in their fight against mass immigration. All these pictures are very emotive. Imagine if you are in a small village in middle Switzerland. I dont blame them for their vote! 


I dont think people are saying that Swiss are not educated, I think the point is that compared to people from neighboring countries they appear to be less educated in the job market. 


Lack of knowledge of the fiscal ramifications makes this vote the "easy" option for people who are in the middle (people who are not sure whether to vote YES or NO). After watching interviews of top UDC members speeches and debates I see that they play on this "simple" view to the people who are less educated and less inclined to ask complex questions. 


I feel for the Swiss people, I think they have been very manipulated by the UDC. This shows the strength of propaganda.


This will effect Switzerland's national image in the long term. So much for neutrality. Can you be a neutral country when your population votes are almost 50% left wing? Whats next? Vote on military (no wait that was done and they votes YES keep the mandatory military)....vote on participating in a war/conflict? 


 

The text you are quoting:

The problem I feel is that the UDC have used very "clever" propaganda in their fight against mass immigration. All these pictures are very emotive. Imagine if you are in a small village in middle Switzerland. I dont blame them for their vote! 


I dont think people are saying that Swiss are not educated, I think the point is that compared to people from neighboring countries they appear to be less educated in the job market. 


Lack of knowledge of the fiscal ramifications makes this vote the "easy" option for people who are in the middle (people who are not sure whether to vote YES or NO). After watching interviews of top UDC members speeches and debates I see that they play on this "simple" view to the people who are less educated and less inclined to ask complex questions. 


I feel for the Swiss people, I think they have been very manipulated by the UDC. This shows the strength of propaganda.


This will effect Switzerland's national image in the long term. So much for neutrality. Can you be a neutral country when your population votes are almost 50% left wing? Whats next? Vote on military (no wait that was done and they votes YES keep the mandatory military)....vote on participating in a war/conflict? 


 


Angie S, Feb 10, 2014 @ 10:34
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Post 26

The problem I feel is that the UDC have used very "clever" propaganda in their fight against mass immigration. All these pictures are very emotive. Imagine if you are in a small village in middle Switzerland. I dont blame them for their vote! 

I dont think people are saying that Swiss are not educated, I think the point is that compared to people from neighboring countries they appear to be less educated in the job market. 

Lack of knowledge of the fiscal ramifications makes this vote the "easy" option for people who are in the middle (people who are not sure whether to vote YES or NO). After watching interviews of top UDC members speeches and debates I see that they play on this "simple" view to the people who are less educated and less inclined to ask complex questions. 

I feel for the Swiss people, I think they have been very manipulated by the UDC. This shows the strength of propaganda.

This will effect Switzerland's national image in the long term. So much for neutrality. Can you be a neutral country when your population votes are almost 50% left wing? Whats next? Vote on military (no wait that was done and they votes YES keep the mandatory military)....vote on participating in a war/conflict? 

 


Feb 10, 14 10:34

Agreed, clever propaganda, and ineffective counter propaganda from the other parties.


A vote on participating in war/conflict would fortunately require first a vote to change article 58 of the constitution. Which makes it harder.

The text you are quoting:

Agreed, clever propaganda, and ineffective counter propaganda from the other parties.


A vote on participating in war/conflict would fortunately require first a vote to change article 58 of the constitution. Which makes it harder.


Richard H, Feb 10, 2014 @ 10:55
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 27



Wait... These guys have an immigrant background!!!Surprised

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Wait... These guys have an immigrant background!!!Surprised


rena, Feb 10, 2014 @ 10:51
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 28

What surprises me with the election was the turnout of OUI in BERN !

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What surprises me with the election was the turnout of OUI in BERN !


gerald m, Feb 10, 2014 @ 10:42
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Post 29

What surprises me with the election was the turnout of OUI in BERN !


Feb 10, 14 10:42

Zürich too! but then look at these cantons, they are huge, Its not just the town as in Geneva,  then look at Basel, which is split into 2 cantons Baselstadt (No) and Baselland(Yes).   

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Zürich too! but then look at these cantons, they are huge, Its not just the town as in Geneva,  then look at Basel, which is split into 2 cantons Baselstadt (No) and Baselland(Yes).   


Richard H, Feb 10, 2014 @ 11:03
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 30

Gaelle Briguet's photo.

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Gaelle Briguet's photo.


rena, Feb 10, 2014 @ 11:04
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Post 31

Zürich too! but then look at these cantons, they are huge, Its not just the town as in Geneva,  then look at Basel, which is split into 2 cantons Baselstadt (No) and Baselland(Yes).   


Feb 10, 14 11:03

Richard, the turnout in Zurich was 52.7 %.


http://info.rts.ch/votations/index.php?voteID=2562

The text you are quoting:

Richard, the turnout in Zurich was 52.7 %.


http://info.rts.ch/votations/index.php?voteID=2562


gerald m, Feb 10, 2014 @ 11:28
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Post 32

Richard, the turnout in Zurich was 52.7 %.

http://info.rts.ch/votations/index.php?voteID=2562


Feb 10, 14 11:28

Sorry, point taken, in fact the turnout in Zürich was 57.7% and 52.7 No.

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Sorry, point taken, in fact the turnout in Zürich was 57.7% and 52.7 No.


Richard H, Feb 10, 2014 @ 11:34
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 33

SVP-President Brunner says that the Swiss and the foreigners living in Switzerland shall be privileged when it comes to jobs. Hear hear!


Zudem sollen Schweizerinnen und Schweizer auf dem Arbeitsmarkt privilegiert werden – inklusive jener Ausländer, die bereits hier leben.


http://www.nzz.ch/aktuell/schweiz/ein-wendepunkt-1.18239581

The text you are quoting:

SVP-President Brunner says that the Swiss and the foreigners living in Switzerland shall be privileged when it comes to jobs. Hear hear!


Zudem sollen Schweizerinnen und Schweizer auf dem Arbeitsmarkt privilegiert werden – inklusive jener Ausländer, die bereits hier leben.


http://www.nzz.ch/aktuell/schweiz/ein-wendepunkt-1.18239581


rena, Feb 10, 2014 @ 11:37
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Post 34

a small country just got smaller :-(


 


it appears a new swiss flag is being designed, here is a first proposal:


 



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a small country just got smaller :-(


 


it appears a new swiss flag is being designed, here is a first proposal:


 


Nick L, Feb 10, 2014 @ 11:51
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 35

a small country just got smaller :-(

 

it appears a new swiss flag is being designed, here is a first proposal:

 


Feb 10, 14 11:51

In 2000 swiss thought there will be estimated 8000 immigrants every year but 80,000 immigrants Every year in a country with population of 8 millions in time of crisis when EU is falling apart!and number are going to rise many folds in coming years because of econmic crisis in spain, italy and especially portugal ! i think it is normal swiss people will feel insecure! Anyways swiss are not going to close their doors, they are just restricting the numbers of people

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In 2000 swiss thought there will be estimated 8000 immigrants every year but 80,000 immigrants Every year in a country with population of 8 millions in time of crisis when EU is falling apart!and number are going to rise many folds in coming years because of econmic crisis in spain, italy and especially portugal ! i think it is normal swiss people will feel insecure! Anyways swiss are not going to close their doors, they are just restricting the numbers of people


brad h, Feb 10, 2014 @ 12:51
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 36

Very interesting thread. The UDC has long been known for its racist views, however with this anti-immigration initiative, it would seem to have struck a chord with many Swiss nationals who would ordinarily never have voted UDC.  Playing devil's advocate here, I can understand to a certain extent the fear of mass immigration, Switzerland is a very small country and 80,000 immigrants a year is not sustainable in the long run. Even the Green party are for regulating the number of people coming over as it is having an adverse affect on the environment as more and more houses are needed. When the bilateral agreements were signed, no one of course envisaged the Euro crisis resulting in the near collapse of the European union leading to a large influx of people from the EEC to Switzerland. However, we must not forget that Switzerland has greatly benefited from their economical access to the markets in the European union which has helped the country to prosper so Switzerland cannot have it both ways. What is needed is some form of compromise. 

There was a very interesting discussion on RTS1 a few days ago on the subject of the vote on immigration - see below:

http://www.infrarouge.ch/ir/2058-special-votation-immigration-trop-massive

One of the factors which strongly influenced the Swiss to vote for this initiative was the 'dumping salarial' whereby greedy employers prefer to employ foreign workers who will work for practically nothing rather than locals who cost ore. This happens a lot on construction sites. 

It would be interesting to hear the viewpoint of Swiss Glocal members on this very controversial subject. 

 


Feb 9, 14 19:18

I wonder why they just didnt force the minimum wage. That will already solve half the problem right there.

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I wonder why they just didnt force the minimum wage. That will already solve half the problem right there.


Marcy S, Feb 10, 2014 @ 13:33
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 37

I wonder why they just didnt force the minimum wage. That will already solve half the problem right there.


Feb 10, 14 13:33

I believe the thought is that with a minimum wage even more people will come flocking in. More black sheep according to the UDC. 


If not for the clearly racist propaganda this would not be as controversial. What do you all think?

The text you are quoting:

I believe the thought is that with a minimum wage even more people will come flocking in. More black sheep according to the UDC. 


If not for the clearly racist propaganda this would not be as controversial. What do you all think?


Angie S, Feb 10, 2014 @ 14:23
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 38

I believe the thought is that with a minimum wage even more people will come flocking in. More black sheep according to the UDC. 

If not for the clearly racist propaganda this would not be as controversial. What do you all think?


Feb 10, 14 14:23

Although the publicity material of the UDC is intentionally shocking and controversial, the agenda behind these changes is not racist. It applies equally to a white man from France and to a Black man from Germany. A lower limit for wages would not solve the problem of numbers of people coming over the border. People come because the salaries are already relatively high in Switzerland.


The problem that is being tackled is the accelerated population increase. Switzerland is relatively small, and could not tolerate a doubling of the population in 50 years according to the UDC. Public services and infrastructure would be overused.


One problem is that no other party seriously challenged the UDC figures, people had no choice but to accept what was said. No serious alternative solution or point of view was put forward. For half of voting Switzerland it made sense and now it is too late.  

The text you are quoting:

Although the publicity material of the UDC is intentionally shocking and controversial, the agenda behind these changes is not racist. It applies equally to a white man from France and to a Black man from Germany. A lower limit for wages would not solve the problem of numbers of people coming over the border. People come because the salaries are already relatively high in Switzerland.


The problem that is being tackled is the accelerated population increase. Switzerland is relatively small, and could not tolerate a doubling of the population in 50 years according to the UDC. Public services and infrastructure would be overused.


One problem is that no other party seriously challenged the UDC figures, people had no choice but to accept what was said. No serious alternative solution or point of view was put forward. For half of voting Switzerland it made sense and now it is too late.  


Richard H, Feb 10, 2014 @ 14:45
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 39

I believe the thought is that with a minimum wage even more people will come flocking in. More black sheep according to the UDC. 

If not for the clearly racist propaganda this would not be as controversial. What do you all think?


Feb 10, 14 14:23

IMHO a minimum wage does not attract more companies. At the contrary. So I can not imagine how that should solve half of the problems in Switzerland.


Companies have to earn more than they spend. If government raise the minimum wage, it prices people out of the market and encourages companies to automate and switch to fewer higher skilled, more productive workers. How does that sound?

The text you are quoting:

IMHO a minimum wage does not attract more companies. At the contrary. So I can not imagine how that should solve half of the problems in Switzerland.


Companies have to earn more than they spend. If government raise the minimum wage, it prices people out of the market and encourages companies to automate and switch to fewer higher skilled, more productive workers. How does that sound?


rena, Feb 10, 2014 @ 14:57
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 40

IMHO a minimum wage does not attract more companies. At the contrary. So I can not imagine how that should solve half of the problems in Switzerland.

Companies have to earn more than they spend. If government raise the minimum wage, it prices people out of the market and encourages companies to automate and switch to fewer higher skilled, more productive workers. How does that sound?


Feb 10, 14 14:57

Had to look up IMHO:-)


IMHO people might call me a hypocrite though if I start using it.

The text you are quoting:

Had to look up IMHO:-)


IMHO people might call me a hypocrite though if I start using it.


Richard H, Feb 10, 2014 @ 15:40
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 41

IMHO a minimum wage does not attract more companies. At the contrary. So I can not imagine how that should solve half of the problems in Switzerland.

Companies have to earn more than they spend. If government raise the minimum wage, it prices people out of the market and encourages companies to automate and switch to fewer higher skilled, more productive workers. How does that sound?


Feb 10, 14 14:57

I dont think itwill attract companies, rather people....knowing that there is a national standard minimum wage...4000 CHF....very attractive for people earning less than 2000Euros! 


I really hope Switzerland can sort themselves out! Its all looking a bit to shakey!...IMHO! 

The text you are quoting:

I dont think itwill attract companies, rather people....knowing that there is a national standard minimum wage...4000 CHF....very attractive for people earning less than 2000Euros! 


I really hope Switzerland can sort themselves out! Its all looking a bit to shakey!...IMHO! 


Angie S, Feb 10, 2014 @ 16:37
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Post 42

So there is a statement on the UDC web site regarding all this.


http://www.udc-vaud.ch/index.php/home/news (unfortunately the UDC do not have an English language version)


You have to admire their inventive choice of wording: "campagne de dénigrement" = a smear campaign, or literally de-blackening campaign!


Surprisingly the UDC does link the issue to the issue of a minimum wage and states the opinion that a minimum wage would accelerate the number of immigrant workers coming in.


In the short term, their suggestion is to treat EU citizens using the same system as non EU citizens. This is the same as what we had before about 2003.


See the differences on this page (english):


http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/specials/switzerland_how_to/work_life/Work_permits.html?cid=29191706


This seems to be different from the governement statement that they have the choice of what to do in the immediate 3 years, which suggests more the maintenance ofstatus-quo for the moment.

The text you are quoting:

So there is a statement on the UDC web site regarding all this.


http://www.udc-vaud.ch/index.php/home/news (unfortunately the UDC do not have an English language version)


You have to admire their inventive choice of wording: "campagne de dénigrement" = a smear campaign, or literally de-blackening campaign!


Surprisingly the UDC does link the issue to the issue of a minimum wage and states the opinion that a minimum wage would accelerate the number of immigrant workers coming in.


In the short term, their suggestion is to treat EU citizens using the same system as non EU citizens. This is the same as what we had before about 2003.


See the differences on this page (english):


http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/specials/switzerland_how_to/work_life/Work_permits.html?cid=29191706


This seems to be different from the governement statement that they have the choice of what to do in the immediate 3 years, which suggests more the maintenance ofstatus-quo for the moment.


Richard H, Feb 10, 2014 @ 16:43
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 43

IMHO a minimum wage does not attract more companies. At the contrary. So I can not imagine how that should solve half of the problems in Switzerland.

Companies have to earn more than they spend. If government raise the minimum wage, it prices people out of the market and encourages companies to automate and switch to fewer higher skilled, more productive workers. How does that sound?


Feb 10, 14 14:57

Rena, I might be wrong, but I kind of understood that they claim too much immigration makes the companies pay people less which is kind of true. I know so many companies that  since the last 3 years salaries for new employees have really gone down. So if their logic is that, then just raise the minimum wage and then the companies have no choice but to employ those swiss and the immigrants will not have any option but to not keep coming. Just thinking like a layman here. 

The text you are quoting:

Rena, I might be wrong, but I kind of understood that they claim too much immigration makes the companies pay people less which is kind of true. I know so many companies that  since the last 3 years salaries for new employees have really gone down. So if their logic is that, then just raise the minimum wage and then the companies have no choice but to employ those swiss and the immigrants will not have any option but to not keep coming. Just thinking like a layman here. 


Marcy S, Feb 10, 2014 @ 17:22
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Post 44

salarys are going down because companies are faced with euro/dollar revenues and CHF overheads, the tax benefits no longer out weight the strong franc.  To be competative they have to cut somewhere.  And given current job situation, the world low on money, if people will be more than happy to accept a lower salary why would companies not do this.


This is also where the people fear a minimum wage.  If suddenly a legal minimum is stipulated, people are concerned thats what companies will then offer, when previously they were getting more than what was on offer as a minimum.

The text you are quoting:

salarys are going down because companies are faced with euro/dollar revenues and CHF overheads, the tax benefits no longer out weight the strong franc.  To be competative they have to cut somewhere.  And given current job situation, the world low on money, if people will be more than happy to accept a lower salary why would companies not do this.


This is also where the people fear a minimum wage.  If suddenly a legal minimum is stipulated, people are concerned thats what companies will then offer, when previously they were getting more than what was on offer as a minimum.


peaky, Feb 10, 2014 @ 17:42
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 45

Rena, I might be wrong, but I kind of understood that they claim too much immigration makes the companies pay people less which is kind of true. I know so many companies that  since the last 3 years salaries for new employees have really gone down. So if their logic is that, then just raise the minimum wage and then the companies have no choice but to employ those swiss and the immigrants will not have any option but to not keep coming. Just thinking like a layman here. 


Feb 10, 14 17:22

i don't think this will work out. Swiss has no problem with skilled coming to swiss. the problem is unqualified people who are coming here to exploit the system. If there is a fix minimum wage! The employer will try to exploit the system other ways! Like many resturants, factories, shop owners do by hiring people without a proper documentation. 


I have a friend who has resurant in lausanne and he told me a portuguese guy came to his resturant and gave him a offer that "He will pay the owner every month few hundred CHF" and will also help him on weekends as working in the resturant in "kitchen" against no salary. All he need is a Job contract of 100% employement till he can apply for the unemployement Fund "Chomage". As he was already working in construction without any proper documentation and without paying any taxes.  


In many EU countries people are making under 400 euros a month. So if there is a rise in minimum salary in swiss it will attract more people from europe to enter in swiss and also it will also motivate the small business owners to break the law and hire these people without any documentation. 

The text you are quoting:

i don't think this will work out. Swiss has no problem with skilled coming to swiss. the problem is unqualified people who are coming here to exploit the system. If there is a fix minimum wage! The employer will try to exploit the system other ways! Like many resturants, factories, shop owners do by hiring people without a proper documentation. 


I have a friend who has resurant in lausanne and he told me a portuguese guy came to his resturant and gave him a offer that "He will pay the owner every month few hundred CHF" and will also help him on weekends as working in the resturant in "kitchen" against no salary. All he need is a Job contract of 100% employement till he can apply for the unemployement Fund "Chomage". As he was already working in construction without any proper documentation and without paying any taxes.  


In many EU countries people are making under 400 euros a month. So if there is a rise in minimum salary in swiss it will attract more people from europe to enter in swiss and also it will also motivate the small business owners to break the law and hire these people without any documentation. 


brad h, Feb 10, 2014 @ 17:49
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 46

The UDC are a bunch of twats

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The UDC are a bunch of twats


parker k, Feb 10, 2014 @ 19:27
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Post 47

it shows their 2 Switzerland :

on one hand, Zurich, Geneva and other cosmopolite cities where s the votation failed and on the other hand, the rest of the Switzerland, wich most of us expat,never heard about.

The swiss have the chance to express their state of mind, fears and wishes with votation but I m pretty sure, that if you have same votation in France, Italia, Spain and many other countries, the result will be the same. 

In crisis time, the usual reaction is protectionism, we have to understand it but also at same time, demonstrate why they should not be afraid and the value that foreigner bring to Switzerland. 

Actually, I would be interested to organize a peacefull march to Berne to show, that we, foreigners are a great asset for Swizerland and alos, we love being here...who s in?

 

 


Feb 10, 14 00:35

That part about "expats" (whatever that is) never hearing about the rest of the country tells a story in itself doesn't it? 


 

The text you are quoting:

That part about "expats" (whatever that is) never hearing about the rest of the country tells a story in itself doesn't it? 


 


Mia M, Feb 10, 2014 @ 19:35
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Post 48

Rena, I might be wrong, but I kind of understood that they claim too much immigration makes the companies pay people less which is kind of true. I know so many companies that  since the last 3 years salaries for new employees have really gone down. So if their logic is that, then just raise the minimum wage and then the companies have no choice but to employ those swiss and the immigrants will not have any option but to not keep coming. Just thinking like a layman here. 


Feb 10, 14 17:22

Got your point Marcy! Thanks for clarifying!


I am not a friend of minimum wages though as to my mind the companies must somehow compensate the costs: by raising the product prices etc.


Am often confronted with requests for wages in different countries as it's the job of strategy departments in industry companies to scan the globe for cheap and efficient production facilities.

The text you are quoting:

Got your point Marcy! Thanks for clarifying!


I am not a friend of minimum wages though as to my mind the companies must somehow compensate the costs: by raising the product prices etc.


Am often confronted with requests for wages in different countries as it's the job of strategy departments in industry companies to scan the globe for cheap and efficient production facilities.


rena, Feb 10, 2014 @ 19:33
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Post 49

Got your point Marcy! Thanks for clarifying!

I am not a friend of minimum wages though as to my mind the companies must somehow compensate the costs: by raising the product prices etc.

Am often confronted with requests for wages in different countries as it's the job of strategy departments in industry companies to scan the globe for cheap and efficient production facilities.


Feb 10, 14 19:33

And it is often also the strategy of the same companies to give outrageously undeserved bonuses and payouts to executives. This makes no sense from a business efficiency point of view. 

The text you are quoting:

And it is often also the strategy of the same companies to give outrageously undeserved bonuses and payouts to executives. This makes no sense from a business efficiency point of view. 


Translator, Feb 10, 2014 @ 20:34
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 50

That part about "expats" (whatever that is) never hearing about the rest of the country tells a story in itself doesn't it? 

 


Feb 10, 14 19:35

It's time we got glocals Appenzell and Lugano!


Never heard of Altdorf? We could do glocals Wilhelm Thell charity events there to help subsidise housing and build railways.

The text you are quoting:

It's time we got glocals Appenzell and Lugano!


Never heard of Altdorf? We could do glocals Wilhelm Thell charity events there to help subsidise housing and build railways.


rena, Feb 10, 2014 @ 20:31
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Post 51

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_news/Economics_minister:_We_misjudged_it_.html?cid=37926784


Swiss Economics Minister Johann Schneider-Ammann has admitted he didn’t think Swiss voters would approve a national vote limiting immigration from the EU.


“I was actually confident,” he told the ECO news programme on Swiss public television, SRF, on Monday.
 
“I said to myself that this affects the entire country – directly or indirectly it affects every workplace. Therefore the Swiss will consider particularly carefully whether there should be a new system or not.”
 
As it turned out, they thought there should. Just. On Sunday, 50.3% of the votes and a majority of cantons passed the proposal, put forward by the rightwing Swiss People’s Party, known for its anti-foreigner and anti-EU agenda.
 
It imposes limits on the number of foreigners allowed in and may signal an end to the country’s free movement accord with the European Union.
 
Switzerland will have to renegotiate its bilateral accord with the EU on the free movement of people within three years or revoke it. This in turn could threaten other bilateral agreements with the EU.
 
“We simply can’t accept these kinds of restrictions, the ones that were approved yesterday,” said European Commission spokeswoman Pia Ahrenkilde. “This will clearly have implications for the rest of the agreements we have with Switzerland.”...

The text you are quoting:

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_news/Economics_minister:_We_misjudged_it_.html?cid=37926784


Swiss Economics Minister Johann Schneider-Ammann has admitted he didn’t think Swiss voters would approve a national vote limiting immigration from the EU.


“I was actually confident,” he told the ECO news programme on Swiss public television, SRF, on Monday.
 
“I said to myself that this affects the entire country – directly or indirectly it affects every workplace. Therefore the Swiss will consider particularly carefully whether there should be a new system or not.”
 
As it turned out, they thought there should. Just. On Sunday, 50.3% of the votes and a majority of cantons passed the proposal, put forward by the rightwing Swiss People’s Party, known for its anti-foreigner and anti-EU agenda.
 
It imposes limits on the number of foreigners allowed in and may signal an end to the country’s free movement accord with the European Union.
 
Switzerland will have to renegotiate its bilateral accord with the EU on the free movement of people within three years or revoke it. This in turn could threaten other bilateral agreements with the EU.
 
“We simply can’t accept these kinds of restrictions, the ones that were approved yesterday,” said European Commission spokeswoman Pia Ahrenkilde. “This will clearly have implications for the rest of the agreements we have with Switzerland.”...


Translator, Feb 10, 2014 @ 20:39
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Post 52

It's time we got glocals Appenzell and Lugano!

Never heard of Altdorf? We could do glocals Wilhelm Thell charity events there to help subsidise housing and build railways.


Feb 10, 14 20:31

sorry: Wilhel Tell (not Thell).


Wouldn't have passed the naturalisations test.

The text you are quoting:

sorry: Wilhel Tell (not Thell).


Wouldn't have passed the naturalisations test.


rena, Feb 10, 2014 @ 20:43
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Post 53

And it is often also the strategy of the same companies to give outrageously undeserved bonuses and payouts to executives. This makes no sense from a business efficiency point of view. 


Feb 10, 14 20:34

Exactly - that's why Senior Management is not supposed to bring their families to the promised (Switzer)land anymore. (Sorry)


Got the message Val!

The text you are quoting:

Exactly - that's why Senior Management is not supposed to bring their families to the promised (Switzer)land anymore. (Sorry)


Got the message Val!


rena, Feb 10, 2014 @ 20:45
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Post 54


Source: Agence France-Presse

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Source: Agence France-Presse


Arun K V, Feb 10, 2014 @ 21:20
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Post 55

Judging by this website, most of the 600.6 Others must be British and Irish..

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Judging by this website, most of the 600.6 Others must be British and Irish..


Richard H, Feb 10, 2014 @ 21:33
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Post 56

sorry: Wilhel Tell (not Thell).

Wouldn't have passed the naturalisations test.


Feb 10, 14 20:43

Still need a correction, like this you wouldnt pass it neither.


 


Wilhelm Tell
The text you are quoting:

Still need a correction, like this you wouldnt pass it neither.


 


Wilhelm Tell
Dorothy W, Feb 10, 2014 @ 21:39
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Post 57

Still need a correction, like this you wouldnt pass it neither.

 

Wilhelm Tell
Feb 10, 14 21:39

That should read either instead of neither, fortunatels English is not an official language..

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That should read either instead of neither, fortunatels English is not an official language..


Richard H, Feb 10, 2014 @ 22:07
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Post 58

Hallo Richard


I might be in an English Forum but I live in Switzerland therefore I speak Swiss German and that is enough for me.

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Hallo Richard


I might be in an English Forum but I live in Switzerland therefore I speak Swiss German and that is enough for me.


Dorothy W, Feb 10, 2014 @ 23:07
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Post 59

So my personal take on the situation so far:


1. No need for panic. 


2. The vote passed but i) there will be 2-3 years before any real law comes into play, ii) during this time the EU is likely to put pressure on CH, so the final law passed could potentially be very watered down. 


Yalla, let's see what happens. 

The text you are quoting:

So my personal take on the situation so far:


1. No need for panic. 


2. The vote passed but i) there will be 2-3 years before any real law comes into play, ii) during this time the EU is likely to put pressure on CH, so the final law passed could potentially be very watered down. 


Yalla, let's see what happens. 


Nir Ofek, Feb 10, 2014 @ 23:19
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Post 60

Nir, I suggest to grant access to Glocals only to a certain number of Swiss per Canton Tongue Out

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Nir, I suggest to grant access to Glocals only to a certain number of Swiss per Canton Tongue Out


Laura C, Feb 10, 2014 @ 23:27
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Post 61

Nir, I suggest to grant access to Glocals only to a certain number of Swiss per Canton Tongue Out


Feb 10, 14 23:27

Well played...(-:

The text you are quoting:

Well played...(-:


Nir Ofek, Feb 10, 2014 @ 23:35
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 62



Will there be any dispensation for the double nationals?

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Will there be any dispensation for the double nationals?


Ritchie, Feb 11, 2014 @ 00:05
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Michael S, Feb 11, 2014 @ 05:34
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Post 64

Hitler reacts to the news...

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Hitler reacts to the news...


Michael S, Feb 11, 2014 @ 05:37
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Post 65

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa-bZ-VE4SY

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa-bZ-VE4SY


Michael S, Feb 11, 2014 @ 05:40
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Post 66

Will there be any dispensation for the double nationals?


Feb 11, 14 00:05

No change for them, they are Swiss nationals.

The text you are quoting:

No change for them, they are Swiss nationals.


Richard H, Feb 11, 2014 @ 09:22
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Post 67



True, but they are also hybrids.

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True, but they are also hybrids.


Ritchie, Feb 11, 2014 @ 09:44
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Post 68

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa-bZ-VE4SY


Feb 11, 14 05:40

Neighbour's Envy, Owners Pride

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Neighbour's Envy, Owners Pride


Chap, Feb 11, 2014 @ 10:08
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Post 69

True, but they are also hybrids.


Feb 11, 14 09:44

ok, but you can't just go dispensing with citizens because they are hybrids, whatever that means... check the constitution, there is an english version on line.

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ok, but you can't just go dispensing with citizens because they are hybrids, whatever that means... check the constitution, there is an english version on line.


Richard H, Feb 11, 2014 @ 10:39
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Post 70

Nir, I suggest to grant access to Glocals only to a certain number of Swiss per Canton Tongue Out


Feb 10, 14 23:27

Applying the same rules as the permit quotas before 2003 glocals geneva would not be allowed any more members until the 22nd century

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Applying the same rules as the permit quotas before 2003 glocals geneva would not be allowed any more members until the 22nd century


Richard H, Feb 11, 2014 @ 10:42
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Post 71

When I first entered Switzerland there was a quota system. High skilled and required personel as well as entrepeneurs were given permits, free loaders were not.


Currently 45% of the population (centred in Geneva, Zueri, Zug etc) are foreign. In Geneva, 45% are foreign permit holders, and of the 55% Swiss... 65% of those are 2nd generation foreign.


If you're working and law abiding I dont see what you have to worry about.


(Having said that my C permit comes up for renewal in 2016... )


 

The text you are quoting:

When I first entered Switzerland there was a quota system. High skilled and required personel as well as entrepeneurs were given permits, free loaders were not.


Currently 45% of the population (centred in Geneva, Zueri, Zug etc) are foreign. In Geneva, 45% are foreign permit holders, and of the 55% Swiss... 65% of those are 2nd generation foreign.


If you're working and law abiding I dont see what you have to worry about.


(Having said that my C permit comes up for renewal in 2016... )


 


Charlie, Feb 11, 2014 @ 10:30
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Post 72

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/11/world/europe/swiss-immigration-vote-raises-alarm-across-europe.html?ref=world&_r=0


Interesting article in the NY times that places Sunday's vote in a broader european context.


 


 

The text you are quoting:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/11/world/europe/swiss-immigration-vote-raises-alarm-across-europe.html?ref=world&_r=0


Interesting article in the NY times that places Sunday's vote in a broader european context.


 


 


Stefano R, Feb 11, 2014 @ 11:49
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Post 73

When I first entered Switzerland there was a quota system. High skilled and required personel as well as entrepeneurs were given permits, free loaders were not.

Currently 45% of the population (centred in Geneva, Zueri, Zug etc) are foreign. In Geneva, 45% are foreign permit holders, and of the 55% Swiss... 65% of those are 2nd generation foreign.

If you're working and law abiding I dont see what you have to worry about.

(Having said that my C permit comes up for renewal in 2016... )

 


Feb 11, 14 10:30

Yet, except for Fribourg, most cantons in Suisse-Romande voted Non. Geneva voted 61.1% Non.


Couldn't link the exact results as its on Flash. Need to select the third results manually: 


http://www.swissinfo.ch/fre/politique_suisse/Les_resultats,_canton_par_canton.html?cid=37851336


 



The text you are quoting:

Yet, except for Fribourg, most cantons in Suisse-Romande voted Non. Geneva voted 61.1% Non.


Couldn't link the exact results as its on Flash. Need to select the third results manually: 


http://www.swissinfo.ch/fre/politique_suisse/Les_resultats,_canton_par_canton.html?cid=37851336


 


Arun K V, Feb 11, 2014 @ 12:09
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Post 74

Yet, except for Fribourg, most cantons in Suisse-Romande voted Non. Geneva voted 61.1% Non.

Couldn't link the exact results as its on Flash. Need to select the third results manually: 

http://www.swissinfo.ch/fre/politique_suisse/Les_resultats,_canton_par_canton.html?cid=37851336

 


Feb 11, 14 12:09

Correction, even Fribourg voted Non, although only marginally.

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Correction, even Fribourg voted Non, although only marginally.


Arun K V, Feb 11, 2014 @ 12:19
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Post 75

Yet, except for Fribourg, most cantons in Suisse-Romande voted Non. Geneva voted 61.1% Non.

Couldn't link the exact results as its on Flash. Need to select the third results manually: 

http://www.swissinfo.ch/fre/politique_suisse/Les_resultats,_canton_par_canton.html?cid=37851336

 


Feb 11, 14 12:09

Indeed... There is still rational thought here.


 


The "yes" votes came from Ticino and the Swiss German speaking highlands... where typically less foreigners live and more fear resides. 


Oddly my 1st foray in Switzerland back in 2001 was in a village in Kanton St Gallen.... I certainly stood out at the local fair, but most of the locals did try and make an effort to include me in stuff, and I made an effort to integrate. it worked till I left in 2005, and still have friends over there.


I dont think the Swiss are as racist as people might suggest, nor are they afraid of foreigners, they're weary of the wrong type of influx (ie criminal) as frankly we all should be.

The text you are quoting:

Indeed... There is still rational thought here.


 


The "yes" votes came from Ticino and the Swiss German speaking highlands... where typically less foreigners live and more fear resides. 


Oddly my 1st foray in Switzerland back in 2001 was in a village in Kanton St Gallen.... I certainly stood out at the local fair, but most of the locals did try and make an effort to include me in stuff, and I made an effort to integrate. it worked till I left in 2005, and still have friends over there.


I dont think the Swiss are as racist as people might suggest, nor are they afraid of foreigners, they're weary of the wrong type of influx (ie criminal) as frankly we all should be.


Charlie, Feb 11, 2014 @ 13:04
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Post 76

When I first entered Switzerland there was a quota system. High skilled and required personel as well as entrepeneurs were given permits, free loaders were not.

Currently 45% of the population (centred in Geneva, Zueri, Zug etc) are foreign. In Geneva, 45% are foreign permit holders, and of the 55% Swiss... 65% of those are 2nd generation foreign.

If you're working and law abiding I dont see what you have to worry about.

(Having said that my C permit comes up for renewal in 2016... )

 


Feb 11, 14 10:30

FWIU People with a C permit "should" not be concerned by the new law according to several articles I read...

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FWIU People with a C permit "should" not be concerned by the new law according to several articles I read...


Josselin L, Feb 11, 2014 @ 13:43
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Post 77

FWIU People with a C permit "should" not be concerned by the new law according to several articles I read...


Feb 11, 14 13:43

That would seem to be right, If my memory serves me correctly, before 2003 a B-Permit was a contract between the employee, the commune and the employer. this is the same for non EU foreigners now.


Currently for EU citizens, the B permit has the letters CE written in it, and it represents a contract directly between the person and the commune. The same as for a C permit. It is this that would change back; so, it is people with B permit (or lower) and no job who could be affected either in 3 years time by which time the governement must put quotas in place or sooner if the UDC proposal to group EU permits with all other permits as a temporary measure. 


C permits have always been between the commune and person directly for everyone. This is unlikely to be changed.

The text you are quoting:

That would seem to be right, If my memory serves me correctly, before 2003 a B-Permit was a contract between the employee, the commune and the employer. this is the same for non EU foreigners now.


Currently for EU citizens, the B permit has the letters CE written in it, and it represents a contract directly between the person and the commune. The same as for a C permit. It is this that would change back; so, it is people with B permit (or lower) and no job who could be affected either in 3 years time by which time the governement must put quotas in place or sooner if the UDC proposal to group EU permits with all other permits as a temporary measure. 


C permits have always been between the commune and person directly for everyone. This is unlikely to be changed.


Richard H, Feb 11, 2014 @ 13:50
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Post 78

The last week before voting the newspapers were full of all those crimes commited by foreigners, attacking old ladies, grasping women, etc, and I guess that played a big part on the results.

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The last week before voting the newspapers were full of all those crimes commited by foreigners, attacking old ladies, grasping women, etc, and I guess that played a big part on the results.


Dorothy W, Feb 11, 2014 @ 18:16
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Post 79

The last week before voting the newspapers were full of all those crimes commited by foreigners, attacking old ladies, grasping women, etc, and I guess that played a big part on the results.


Feb 11, 14 18:16

Isn't that the daily bread of 20 minutes/20 Minuten?

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Isn't that the daily bread of 20 minutes/20 Minuten?


rena, Feb 11, 2014 @ 18:27
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Post 80

The last week before voting the newspapers were full of all those crimes commited by foreigners, attacking old ladies, grasping women, etc, and I guess that played a big part on the results.


Feb 11, 14 18:16

i think it is ture! personally i feel crimes in switzerland have increase a lot especially in last 2 3 years. 

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i think it is ture! personally i feel crimes in switzerland have increase a lot especially in last 2 3 years. 


brad h, Feb 11, 2014 @ 18:33
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Post 81

hi i dont think there is problem if you are working in geneva. and even for those who wants to come here for work. they are just going to change the catogory of permit. means if any EU national got job he/she can live here. when job is finish then they must go back to their home country. and this will be for new ones. and this is also true alarge number of EU nationals on chomage. coz they work only first one year and after they are facing difficulties to find  job . 

The text you are quoting:

hi i dont think there is problem if you are working in geneva. and even for those who wants to come here for work. they are just going to change the catogory of permit. means if any EU national got job he/she can live here. when job is finish then they must go back to their home country. and this will be for new ones. and this is also true alarge number of EU nationals on chomage. coz they work only first one year and after they are facing difficulties to find  job . 


ali haroon, Feb 11, 2014 @ 18:59
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Post 82

i think it is ture! personally i feel crimes in switzerland have increase a lot especially in last 2 3 years. 


Feb 11, 14 18:33

Switzerland is still one of the safest countries in Europe.

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Switzerland is still one of the safest countries in Europe.


lizzy t, Feb 11, 2014 @ 19:07
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Post 83

Switzerland is still one of the safest countries in Europe.


Feb 11, 14 19:07

Yes but things will keep continue like this it wont be anymore! for example Geneva was a safest city but "IT IS NOT ANYMORE". 

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Yes but things will keep continue like this it wont be anymore! for example Geneva was a safest city but "IT IS NOT ANYMORE". 


brad h, Feb 11, 2014 @ 19:31
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 84

Much of the crime rise in the last 4 Years in Geneva is coming from people living in Annamasse and not Swityerland. It is very easy and an attractive proposition for crimnals to live accross the border in france becuase 1. the borders are very lightly watched specially to enter france and 2. The police cannot follow them accross the border once they lose sight of the suspect. Its also why there are so many muggings in geneva. Annamasse is the second worst area in france apparently...

The text you are quoting:

Much of the crime rise in the last 4 Years in Geneva is coming from people living in Annamasse and not Swityerland. It is very easy and an attractive proposition for crimnals to live accross the border in france becuase 1. the borders are very lightly watched specially to enter france and 2. The police cannot follow them accross the border once they lose sight of the suspect. Its also why there are so many muggings in geneva. Annamasse is the second worst area in france apparently...


adam b, Feb 11, 2014 @ 19:50
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 85

or has the second worst neighbourhood rather


 

The text you are quoting:

or has the second worst neighbourhood rather


 


adam b, Feb 11, 2014 @ 19:54
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 86

Yes but things will keep continue like this it wont be anymore! for example Geneva was a safest city but "IT IS NOT ANYMORE". 


Feb 11, 14 19:31

Quotas on B and G permits surely will help.  Amirite?

The text you are quoting:

Quotas on B and G permits surely will help.  Amirite?


richardm, Feb 11, 2014 @ 19:55
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 87

i think it is ture! personally i feel crimes in switzerland have increase a lot especially in last 2 3 years. 


Feb 11, 14 18:33



In my building the “caves” were again visited last week –


 the third time in less than a year.  It never used to be like that.

The text you are quoting:



In my building the “caves” were again visited last week –


 the third time in less than a year.  It never used to be like that.


Ritchie, Feb 11, 2014 @ 19:57
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 88

Quotas on B and G permits surely will help.  Amirite?


Feb 11, 14 19:55

No! it wont change things over night! but still it will help. It willl help to stop black sheeps who help criminals. 


You are a US citizen you better know about H-1B visa "It has Quotas" 65,000 per year. 


 


 A foreign worker in H-1B status quits or is dismissed from the sponsoring employer, the worker must either apply for and be granted a change of status to another non-immigrant status, find another employer (subject to application for adjustment of status and/or change of visa), or leave the US.


 


A country of population of 314 Million = "65000"


Same Ratio if applies to Switzerland with 7 Million it should be = 1500 person per year! 


 


 


 


 


 

The text you are quoting:

No! it wont change things over night! but still it will help. It willl help to stop black sheeps who help criminals. 


You are a US citizen you better know about H-1B visa "It has Quotas" 65,000 per year. 


 


 A foreign worker in H-1B status quits or is dismissed from the sponsoring employer, the worker must either apply for and be granted a change of status to another non-immigrant status, find another employer (subject to application for adjustment of status and/or change of visa), or leave the US.


 


A country of population of 314 Million = "65000"


Same Ratio if applies to Switzerland with 7 Million it should be = 1500 person per year! 


 


 


 


 


 


brad h, Feb 11, 2014 @ 20:17
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 89

In 2000 swiss thought there will be estimated 8000 immigrants every year but 80,000 immigrants Every year in a country with population of 8 millions in time of crisis when EU is falling apart!and number are going to rise many folds in coming years because of econmic crisis in spain, italy and especially portugal ! i think it is normal swiss people will feel insecure! Anyways swiss are not going to close their doors, they are just restricting the numbers of people


Feb 10, 14 12:51

Congrats !!!


I read the whole thing from top to bottom and in my opinion you are the only person who pointed out the real fact behind Swiss voting behaviour.


Sorry guys,  I agree with Swiss People and their choice afterall it is their country. We keep talking about democracy in the world well this is the bitter side of it.


I rather have the general people making the call then just a bunch of few powerful corporations and curropt politicians ...take a look at other countries where their citizen's desires and wishes are absolutely not on Govt's agenda.


All said... no need to panic as Switzerland is very dependent on foreign skilled workers and still needs trading partner like EU.


Cheers


 

The text you are quoting:

Congrats !!!


I read the whole thing from top to bottom and in my opinion you are the only person who pointed out the real fact behind Swiss voting behaviour.


Sorry guys,  I agree with Swiss People and their choice afterall it is their country. We keep talking about democracy in the world well this is the bitter side of it.


I rather have the general people making the call then just a bunch of few powerful corporations and curropt politicians ...take a look at other countries where their citizen's desires and wishes are absolutely not on Govt's agenda.


All said... no need to panic as Switzerland is very dependent on foreign skilled workers and still needs trading partner like EU.


Cheers


 


Sami, Feb 11, 2014 @ 20:53
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 90

True, is their choice but then Switzerland should also:
1) limit the number of expatriates: now guys you stay here :-)
2) stop give tax incentives to open companies, unless owners/investors are Swiss native from at least 2 generations...
3) all that banks must be transferred somewhere else: foreigners are evil, their money too!
4) put a wall all around the Country and fill it with murals, making sure the German part is well separated from the others because apparently "more Swiss"
5) recognise that Belgian chocolate is way much better and Fondue is the most sad National dish ever (surely is nice but hey, is just melted cheddar).


“It is easy to be brave from a safe distance”

The text you are quoting:

True, is their choice but then Switzerland should also:
1) limit the number of expatriates: now guys you stay here :-)
2) stop give tax incentives to open companies, unless owners/investors are Swiss native from at least 2 generations...
3) all that banks must be transferred somewhere else: foreigners are evil, their money too!
4) put a wall all around the Country and fill it with murals, making sure the German part is well separated from the others because apparently "more Swiss"
5) recognise that Belgian chocolate is way much better and Fondue is the most sad National dish ever (surely is nice but hey, is just melted cheddar).


“It is easy to be brave from a safe distance”


Laura C, Feb 11, 2014 @ 21:58
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 91

There is a thin line between being brave and being stupid Laughing


Small country like CH with 80000 imigrants a year makes no sense because massive investments are needed to keep up with infrastructure needs. 


Yes ! there are certain advantages such as skilled labour and business deals with EU but one has to weigh all the pros and cons. This country has proven time n time again that the formula they have works ...which is also the reason why so many expats prefer to work here than in their own country.


 

The text you are quoting:

There is a thin line between being brave and being stupid Laughing


Small country like CH with 80000 imigrants a year makes no sense because massive investments are needed to keep up with infrastructure needs. 


Yes ! there are certain advantages such as skilled labour and business deals with EU but one has to weigh all the pros and cons. This country has proven time n time again that the formula they have works ...which is also the reason why so many expats prefer to work here than in their own country.


 


Sami, Feb 12, 2014 @ 07:26
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 92

Molly:


Relax. Just because we're expats living in CH doesn't mean we can't discuss what we think is less good (or less consistant) in local policies. There is a discussion on this forum, and if everyone just says "great" to all local policies, there won't be much of a disucssion...


Nothing wrong in living in a host country and paying taxes there, and at the same time having a real discussion - incl negative comments - about what could be done diffirently.


Nir

The text you are quoting:

Molly:


Relax. Just because we're expats living in CH doesn't mean we can't discuss what we think is less good (or less consistant) in local policies. There is a discussion on this forum, and if everyone just says "great" to all local policies, there won't be much of a disucssion...


Nothing wrong in living in a host country and paying taxes there, and at the same time having a real discussion - incl negative comments - about what could be done diffirently.


Nir


Nir Ofek, Feb 12, 2014 @ 08:18
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 93

Jan 1, 70 01:00

she is not a racist, she has an opinion and she is not afraid to say what she thinks.

The text you are quoting:

she is not a racist, she has an opinion and she is not afraid to say what she thinks.


lizzy t, Feb 12, 2014 @ 09:11
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 94

There is a thin line between being brave and being stupid Laughing

Small country like CH with 80000 imigrants a year makes no sense because massive investments are needed to keep up with infrastructure needs. 

Yes ! there are certain advantages such as skilled labour and business deals with EU but one has to weigh all the pros and cons. This country has proven time n time again that the formula they have works ...which is also the reason why so many expats prefer to work here than in their own country.

 


Feb 12, 14 07:26

keep cool sami, you have no right to call anybody stupid just because you think you know better.

The text you are quoting:

keep cool sami, you have no right to call anybody stupid just because you think you know better.


lizzy t, Feb 12, 2014 @ 09:14
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 95

Jan 1, 70 01:00

first: you don't know what racism is. 


second: your pride does not empower you to call others "racist".

The text you are quoting:

first: you don't know what racism is. 


second: your pride does not empower you to call others "racist".


lizzy t, Feb 12, 2014 @ 09:15
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 96

One problem which my swiss neighbour (who is jobless at the moment) mentioned is that more foreigners as employers are hiring their own people. Like  French boss is hiring more and more french while a portuguese emoloyer prefer his own people. This is causing a big problem for local people.


I myself and a few other friends now pay huge amounts of money because we moved our kids from public school. There were 28 kids in my son's class and the Director of school said he doesnt have resources to split the class and he confirmed to me that it had never happened before. 


A common man voting will see things as they appear from his home and not consider the general consequences on country as a whole. And since this has worked for Swiss so far so why not now. Some kind of control is better before frustration brings out the bad in people.

The text you are quoting:

One problem which my swiss neighbour (who is jobless at the moment) mentioned is that more foreigners as employers are hiring their own people. Like  French boss is hiring more and more french while a portuguese emoloyer prefer his own people. This is causing a big problem for local people.


I myself and a few other friends now pay huge amounts of money because we moved our kids from public school. There were 28 kids in my son's class and the Director of school said he doesnt have resources to split the class and he confirmed to me that it had never happened before. 


A common man voting will see things as they appear from his home and not consider the general consequences on country as a whole. And since this has worked for Swiss so far so why not now. Some kind of control is better before frustration brings out the bad in people.


Mona Hadi, Feb 12, 2014 @ 09:39
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 97

Molly:

Relax. Just because we're expats living in CH doesn't mean we can't discuss what we think is less good (or less consistant) in local policies. There is a discussion on this forum, and if everyone just says "great" to all local policies, there won't be much of a disucssion...

Nothing wrong in living in a host country and paying taxes there, and at the same time having a real discussion - incl negative comments - about what could be done diffirently.

Nir


Feb 12, 14 08:18

Thank you Nir! This was badly needed to be outlined. I am personally so fed up and irritated with the comments like "go back to your home". Everytime someone complains about shops closing early or Geneva being boring or even the weather being rainy, there is a bombardment of comments saying "Go back home, you have no right to express anything but gratitude". 


There are many reasons why people live here, may be their government sent them as diplomats, may be they work for UN which happens to be here, may be some company or airline or whatever. No one is having free food here, they contribute to the economy, and as free people they can voice their opinion sometimes, it doesnt kill anyone!

The text you are quoting:

Thank you Nir! This was badly needed to be outlined. I am personally so fed up and irritated with the comments like "go back to your home". Everytime someone complains about shops closing early or Geneva being boring or even the weather being rainy, there is a bombardment of comments saying "Go back home, you have no right to express anything but gratitude". 


There are many reasons why people live here, may be their government sent them as diplomats, may be they work for UN which happens to be here, may be some company or airline or whatever. No one is having free food here, they contribute to the economy, and as free people they can voice their opinion sometimes, it doesnt kill anyone!


Mona Hadi, Feb 12, 2014 @ 11:12
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 98

That should read either instead of neither, fortunatels English is not an official language..


Feb 10, 14 22:07

Yes FORTUNATELY not ;) 

The text you are quoting:

Yes FORTUNATELY not ;) 


Mona Hadi, Feb 12, 2014 @ 11:22
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 99

I have a Swiss tax return in front of me that lists about 20'000 reasons why I should have a voice in this discussion.  If I want to complain about Switzerland and Swiss policy on an expat website, I will.

The text you are quoting:

I have a Swiss tax return in front of me that lists about 20'000 reasons why I should have a voice in this discussion.  If I want to complain about Switzerland and Swiss policy on an expat website, I will.


richardm, Feb 12, 2014 @ 11:27
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 100

Very sad for Switzerland. Ashamed to be Swiss...

 


Feb 9, 14 21:29

You should not be ashamed to be Swiss, Switzerland is a great country. It is just that some Swiss are scared and worried about so many people coming into their country. The UDC is also very good at scaremongering so for some this was a panic vote. Unfortunately, the EU is probably going to make an example of Switzerland and levy some kind of punishment in order to deter other countries from taking a similar line. Both Norway and one political party in the UK have praised Switzerland and would like to see the same thing in their respective countries.

The text you are quoting:

You should not be ashamed to be Swiss, Switzerland is a great country. It is just that some Swiss are scared and worried about so many people coming into their country. The UDC is also very good at scaremongering so for some this was a panic vote. Unfortunately, the EU is probably going to make an example of Switzerland and levy some kind of punishment in order to deter other countries from taking a similar line. Both Norway and one political party in the UK have praised Switzerland and would like to see the same thing in their respective countries.


delseta9_, Feb 12, 2014 @ 11:39
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 101

Yes FORTUNATELY not ;) 


Feb 12, 14 11:22

Come on Mona, you're not playing the game...


it was intentional, but you would have to read a lot of boring posts to work that out, person 1 corrected persons 2's spelling, but there was a spelling mistake in the correction, so I pointed this out and makde sure that there was a spelling misktae in my answer;-)

The text you are quoting:

Come on Mona, you're not playing the game...


it was intentional, but you would have to read a lot of boring posts to work that out, person 1 corrected persons 2's spelling, but there was a spelling mistake in the correction, so I pointed this out and makde sure that there was a spelling misktae in my answer;-)


Richard H, Feb 12, 2014 @ 11:54
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 102
The text you are quoting:

Yvan, Feb 12, 2014 @ 12:04
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 103

Another view on Swiss initiative


http://www.imd.org/news/Have-the-Swiss-lost-touch-with-reality.cfm


 

The text you are quoting:

Another view on Swiss initiative


http://www.imd.org/news/Have-the-Swiss-lost-touch-with-reality.cfm


 


gulchatay, Feb 12, 2014 @ 11:50
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 104

keep cool sami, you have no right to call anybody stupid just because you think you know better.


Feb 12, 14 09:14

Not sure if you understood my comment properly. So before i say anything further....


who do you think  i called stupid in your opinion ? 

The text you are quoting:

Not sure if you understood my comment properly. So before i say anything further....


who do you think  i called stupid in your opinion ? 


Sami, Feb 12, 2014 @ 12:01
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 105

No! it wont change things over night! but still it will help. It willl help to stop black sheeps who help criminals. 

You are a US citizen you better know about H-1B visa "It has Quotas" 65,000 per year. 

 

 A foreign worker in H-1B status quits or is dismissed from the sponsoring employer, the worker must either apply for and be granted a change of status to another non-immigrant status, find another employer (subject to application for adjustment of status and/or change of visa), or leave the US.

 

A country of population of 314 Million = "65000"

Same Ratio if applies to Switzerland with 7 Million it should be = 1500 person per year! 

 

 

 

 

 


Feb 11, 14 20:17

Makes sense. Especially if you are completely oblivious to the following facts:


1) The US did NOT sign an agreement with the EU on freedom of movement.


2) If you wanted to create a valid analogy, you would use the TN visa applicable to Canadian & Mexican workers. You didn't, tant pis.


3) The 314 million did not mushroom from the Grand Canyon, the US is a country of immigrants. There's even a diversity program to ensure...ah well, Google it.

The text you are quoting:

Makes sense. Especially if you are completely oblivious to the following facts:


1) The US did NOT sign an agreement with the EU on freedom of movement.


2) If you wanted to create a valid analogy, you would use the TN visa applicable to Canadian & Mexican workers. You didn't, tant pis.


3) The 314 million did not mushroom from the Grand Canyon, the US is a country of immigrants. There's even a diversity program to ensure...ah well, Google it.


Arun K V, Feb 12, 2014 @ 12:15
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 106

Jan 1, 70 01:00

Nir, A point regarding this.


Fully agreed that you should remove insulting posts, but when I complained about a post that directly insults a very large number of Swiss Citizens, using a bad word, you did not remove it. (see post from parker k earlier). 


What is acceptable?


 


 

The text you are quoting:

Nir, A point regarding this.


Fully agreed that you should remove insulting posts, but when I complained about a post that directly insults a very large number of Swiss Citizens, using a bad word, you did not remove it. (see post from parker k earlier). 


What is acceptable?


 


 


Richard H, Feb 12, 2014 @ 12:18
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 107

Nir, A point regarding this.

Fully agreed that you should remove insulting posts, but when I complained about a post that directly insults a very large number of Swiss Citizens, using a bad word, you did not remove it. (see post from parker k earlier). 

What is acceptable?

 

 


Feb 12, 14 12:18

Richard:


I don't recall the specific case you ask about, but in general: personal attacks on people don't fly, clear racism or discrimination doesn't fly. Using bad language in itself it not always reason for us to take action. Someone can use the F word in a dirty joke and that's cool, but then use the F word in a totally different context and we'll take action.


Sometimes it's an easy black-and-white call, other times it's more grey which makes it a more subjective call. 


Nir


 

The text you are quoting:

Richard:


I don't recall the specific case you ask about, but in general: personal attacks on people don't fly, clear racism or discrimination doesn't fly. Using bad language in itself it not always reason for us to take action. Someone can use the F word in a dirty joke and that's cool, but then use the F word in a totally different context and we'll take action.


Sometimes it's an easy black-and-white call, other times it's more grey which makes it a more subjective call. 


Nir


 


Nir Ofek, Feb 12, 2014 @ 12:33
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 108

You should not be ashamed to be Swiss, Switzerland is a great country. It is just that some Swiss are scared and worried about so many people coming into their country. The UDC is also very good at scaremongering so for some this was a panic vote. Unfortunately, the EU is probably going to make an example of Switzerland and levy some kind of punishment in order to deter other countries from taking a similar line. Both Norway and one political party in the UK have praised Switzerland and would like to see the same thing in their respective countries.


Feb 12, 14 11:39

Maybe they won’t. It is necessary to ask the question, What can Switzerland lose and what can the EU lose?


There were 7 parts to the bilateral agreement of 1999 all of which had to be accepted together as a package.


Freedom of movement is arguably the most important part, and this is what prevents Switzerland from issuing quotas. Technically, with the recent decision, all the other parts are invalidated.


However, the EU will not want the whole treaty to fall over because some parts are beneficial to either one or both sides. This is where the three years of re-negotiation are crucial to both sides.


The parts about trade and agriculture are equally beneficial to both parties, whereas the part about civil aviation is mainly beneficial to Switzerland while the part about road transport is more important for the EU.


Cancelling these agreements would not be beneficial to the EU, so Switzerland still has considerable margin to re-negotiate and end up ahead of the game.

The text you are quoting:

Maybe they won’t. It is necessary to ask the question, What can Switzerland lose and what can the EU lose?


There were 7 parts to the bilateral agreement of 1999 all of which had to be accepted together as a package.


Freedom of movement is arguably the most important part, and this is what prevents Switzerland from issuing quotas. Technically, with the recent decision, all the other parts are invalidated.


However, the EU will not want the whole treaty to fall over because some parts are beneficial to either one or both sides. This is where the three years of re-negotiation are crucial to both sides.


The parts about trade and agriculture are equally beneficial to both parties, whereas the part about civil aviation is mainly beneficial to Switzerland while the part about road transport is more important for the EU.


Cancelling these agreements would not be beneficial to the EU, so Switzerland still has considerable margin to re-negotiate and end up ahead of the game.


Richard H, Feb 12, 2014 @ 12:55
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Post 109

You should not be ashamed to be Swiss, Switzerland is a great country. It is just that some Swiss are scared and worried about so many people coming into their country. The UDC is also very good at scaremongering so for some this was a panic vote. Unfortunately, the EU is probably going to make an example of Switzerland and levy some kind of punishment in order to deter other countries from taking a similar line. Both Norway and one political party in the UK have praised Switzerland and would like to see the same thing in their respective countries.


Feb 12, 14 11:39
I agree that Switzerland is a great country and no need to be ashamed. If other countries would have a direct democracy the result would not be so different I think.
 
Not sure what you mean by punishment of the EU in order to deter other countries from taking a similar line. Again: other countries have no direct democracy. To my mind the UK and Norway do not accept their citizens to come up with 50.000 signatures and a brilliant idea to kick off a referendum. 
 
Why should the EU accept Swiss people coming to European countries in an illimited number if Switzerland starts imposing a maximum number?

Correct me if I am wrong but again the EU does not punish Switzerland but refer to a contract Switzerland signed: the treaty of free movement of people. It was agreed that if one of the assignments won't be respected anymore all other become void.


It sounded to me a bit as if the mean EU is afraid of protectionism and starts spitting fire in order to stop people from voting for right wing parties.
But I might have misunderstood.


The text you are quoting:
I agree that Switzerland is a great country and no need to be ashamed. If other countries would have a direct democracy the result would not be so different I think.
 
Not sure what you mean by punishment of the EU in order to deter other countries from taking a similar line. Again: other countries have no direct democracy. To my mind the UK and Norway do not accept their citizens to come up with 50.000 signatures and a brilliant idea to kick off a referendum. 
 
Why should the EU accept Swiss people coming to European countries in an illimited number if Switzerland starts imposing a maximum number?

Correct me if I am wrong but again the EU does not punish Switzerland but refer to a contract Switzerland signed: the treaty of free movement of people. It was agreed that if one of the assignments won't be respected anymore all other become void.


It sounded to me a bit as if the mean EU is afraid of protectionism and starts spitting fire in order to stop people from voting for right wing parties.
But I might have misunderstood.



rena, Feb 12, 2014 @ 12:12
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Post 110

Not sure if you understood my comment properly. So before i say anything further....

who do you think  i called stupid in your opinion ? 


Feb 12, 14 12:01

 


Laura said at the end of her post (nr. 91) “It is easy to be brave from a safe distance”.


2 Posts later (post nr. 93) you said "There is a thin line between being brave and being stupid Laughing


So who have you been refering to, if not to laura?

The text you are quoting:

 


Laura said at the end of her post (nr. 91) “It is easy to be brave from a safe distance”.


2 Posts later (post nr. 93) you said "There is a thin line between being brave and being stupid Laughing


So who have you been refering to, if not to laura?


lizzy t, Feb 12, 2014 @ 13:26
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 111

Jan 1, 70 01:00

Thanks Lokum. Does that mean you feel Geneva is too crowded?


The statisctics show that there a lot of immigrants in Switzerland and I undertand you live in Geneva.


I know people in e.g. Appenzell where not so happy. Never lived there. Maybe it's even  even worse there than in Zurich, Basel or Zug. Thanks for clarifying.

The text you are quoting:

Thanks Lokum. Does that mean you feel Geneva is too crowded?


The statisctics show that there a lot of immigrants in Switzerland and I undertand you live in Geneva.


I know people in e.g. Appenzell where not so happy. Never lived there. Maybe it's even  even worse there than in Zurich, Basel or Zug. Thanks for clarifying.


rena, Feb 12, 2014 @ 13:29
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Post 112

Jan 1, 70 01:00

Thanks Lokum. Does that mean you feel Geneva is too crowded?


The stastistics show that there a lot of immigrants in Switzerland and I understand you live in Geneva.

I know people in e.g. Appenzell where not so happy. Never lived there. Maybe it's even worse than Zurich, Basel or Zug. Thanks for clarifying.

The text you are quoting:

Thanks Lokum. Does that mean you feel Geneva is too crowded?


The stastistics show that there a lot of immigrants in Switzerland and I understand you live in Geneva.

I know people in e.g. Appenzell where not so happy. Never lived there. Maybe it's even worse than Zurich, Basel or Zug. Thanks for clarifying.


rena, Feb 12, 2014 @ 13:37
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 113

PS: Have a look at the below link.

It shows the GDP per capita and consumption in Switzerland. Without all the immegrants the country would maybe not appear on top of the list.

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php/GDP_per_capita,_consumption_per_capita_and_price_level_indices

The text you are quoting:

PS: Have a look at the below link.

It shows the GDP per capita and consumption in Switzerland. Without all the immegrants the country would maybe not appear on top of the list.

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php/GDP_per_capita,_consumption_per_capita_and_price_level_indices


rena, Feb 12, 2014 @ 13:47
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 114

sorry, here's the correct link:


http://www.tradingeconomics.com/switzerland/gdp-per-capita

The text you are quoting:

sorry, here's the correct link:


http://www.tradingeconomics.com/switzerland/gdp-per-capita


rena, Feb 12, 2014 @ 13:53
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Post 115

Maybe they won’t. It is necessary to ask the question, What can Switzerland lose and what can the EU lose?

There were 7 parts to the bilateral agreement of 1999 all of which had to be accepted together as a package.

Freedom of movement is arguably the most important part, and this is what prevents Switzerland from issuing quotas. Technically, with the recent decision, all the other parts are invalidated.

However, the EU will not want the whole treaty to fall over because some parts are beneficial to either one or both sides. This is where the three years of re-negotiation are crucial to both sides.

The parts about trade and agriculture are equally beneficial to both parties, whereas the part about civil aviation is mainly beneficial to Switzerland while the part about road transport is more important for the EU.

Cancelling these agreements would not be beneficial to the EU, so Switzerland still has considerable margin to re-negotiate and end up ahead of the game.


Feb 12, 14 12:55

This is exactly the reasoning of the UDC with respect to playing a game of 'chicken' about EU-Swiss bilateral agreements and relations.


The leverage of one country versus a group of nations does not balance out.


Second, it is easy to assume that because the accepted Swiss legislation provides for a 3 year implemenation window that major European Union nations as well as major elements of the Swiss business community will tolerate such political-economic instability for such an extended period of time.


Third, this accepted referendum will likely cause a 'chilling effect' on any bilateral agreement negotiations because the European Union (and the Swiss government) will understand that the UDC will probably now keep pressing with greater frequency and intensity what might be perceived as anti-EU initiatives on a regular basis.


Fourth, as mentioned by a political scientist on last night's RTS Infrarouge debate, the EU could --even temporarily -- halt cooperation in a number of non-economic areas that greatly affect the Swiss including scientific cooperation and educational exchange programs.


Finally, the EU will likely use this vote as an excuse to press for further concessions in the banking and financial sector. This is the opening that many in the EU, especially Germany and France, have been waiting for.


Of course the EU will probably look for ways to respond proportionally given the slight margin of the vote. They will look to see how the Swiss government finesses the issue when translating the initiative into actual legislation and regulations. 


 


Last but not least, here is a little humor by some Swiss about certain Swiss.

The text you are quoting:

This is exactly the reasoning of the UDC with respect to playing a game of 'chicken' about EU-Swiss bilateral agreements and relations.


The leverage of one country versus a group of nations does not balance out.


Second, it is easy to assume that because the accepted Swiss legislation provides for a 3 year implemenation window that major European Union nations as well as major elements of the Swiss business community will tolerate such political-economic instability for such an extended period of time.


Third, this accepted referendum will likely cause a 'chilling effect' on any bilateral agreement negotiations because the European Union (and the Swiss government) will understand that the UDC will probably now keep pressing with greater frequency and intensity what might be perceived as anti-EU initiatives on a regular basis.


Fourth, as mentioned by a political scientist on last night's RTS Infrarouge debate, the EU could --even temporarily -- halt cooperation in a number of non-economic areas that greatly affect the Swiss including scientific cooperation and educational exchange programs.


Finally, the EU will likely use this vote as an excuse to press for further concessions in the banking and financial sector. This is the opening that many in the EU, especially Germany and France, have been waiting for.


Of course the EU will probably look for ways to respond proportionally given the slight margin of the vote. They will look to see how the Swiss government finesses the issue when translating the initiative into actual legislation and regulations. 


 


Last but not least, here is a little humor by some Swiss about certain Swiss.


Translator, Feb 12, 2014 @ 13:46
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 116

Jan 1, 70 01:00

Thanks for clarifying! Must not be easy for you to hear all this comments about your country these days.

The text you are quoting:

Thanks for clarifying! Must not be easy for you to hear all this comments about your country these days.


rena, Feb 12, 2014 @ 14:20
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Post 117

I understand and empathise with the Swiss on their vote. 


I also understand why many foreign workers are worried, rightly or wrongly. If youre here and you have a job already my view is that not much will change. 


There is, however, no "free ride" in the wonderful land we live in. the vote in my understanding was to curb the free loaders who would otherwise try and come here.


This is also what the UK is thinking of bringing in. (although I suspect they will find it harder to implement.)


Lets not all get over excited about this...  


 

The text you are quoting:

I understand and empathise with the Swiss on their vote. 


I also understand why many foreign workers are worried, rightly or wrongly. If youre here and you have a job already my view is that not much will change. 


There is, however, no "free ride" in the wonderful land we live in. the vote in my understanding was to curb the free loaders who would otherwise try and come here.


This is also what the UK is thinking of bringing in. (although I suspect they will find it harder to implement.)


Lets not all get over excited about this...  


 


Charlie, Feb 12, 2014 @ 14:10
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 118

Thanks for clarifying! Must not be easy for you to hear all this comments about your country these days.


Feb 12, 14 14:20

Exactly, especially seeing that, for those that are already here, it's not very bad news, and for the Non europeans commenting, it's no change whatsoever!

The text you are quoting:

Exactly, especially seeing that, for those that are already here, it's not very bad news, and for the Non europeans commenting, it's no change whatsoever!


Richard H, Feb 12, 2014 @ 14:24
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 119

You should not be ashamed to be Swiss, Switzerland is a great country. It is just that some Swiss are scared and worried about so many people coming into their country. The UDC is also very good at scaremongering so for some this was a panic vote. Unfortunately, the EU is probably going to make an example of Switzerland and levy some kind of punishment in order to deter other countries from taking a similar line. Both Norway and one political party in the UK have praised Switzerland and would like to see the same thing in their respective countries.


Feb 12, 14 11:39

A. That is quite a claim about the whole of Norway. Here is some reporting on more nuanced views. I think many Norwegians are particularly mindful of dealing with anti-immigrant issues given the 2011 mass murder by Anders Behring Breivik. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/24/world/europe/anti-immigrant-party-norway.html?_r=0


B. Yes, there is one particular UK party as well as elements of the ruling party who are taking more extreme views on how exactly to deal with immigration, particularly from Eastern European nations. Of course, David Cameron's government has a bit of egg on its face because the minister for immigration who launched the vaunted 'Go Home' campaign very recently resigned. Why? For having employed a so-called illegal immigrant as a cleaner. http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/feb/08/immigration-minister-resigns-illegal-immigrant-mark-harper

The text you are quoting:

A. That is quite a claim about the whole of Norway. Here is some reporting on more nuanced views. I think many Norwegians are particularly mindful of dealing with anti-immigrant issues given the 2011 mass murder by Anders Behring Breivik. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/24/world/europe/anti-immigrant-party-norway.html?_r=0


B. Yes, there is one particular UK party as well as elements of the ruling party who are taking more extreme views on how exactly to deal with immigration, particularly from Eastern European nations. Of course, David Cameron's government has a bit of egg on its face because the minister for immigration who launched the vaunted 'Go Home' campaign very recently resigned. Why? For having employed a so-called illegal immigrant as a cleaner. http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/feb/08/immigration-minister-resigns-illegal-immigrant-mark-harper


Translator, Feb 12, 2014 @ 14:14
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Post 120

Check this out: http://theotherhalf.ch


 

The text you are quoting:

Check this out: http://theotherhalf.ch


 


gerald m, Feb 12, 2014 @ 17:34
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 121

the politics of fear

The text you are quoting:

the politics of fear


parker k, Feb 12, 2014 @ 18:26
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 122

 

Laura said at the end of her post (nr. 91) “It is easy to be brave from a safe distance”.

2 Posts later (post nr. 93) you said "There is a thin line between being brave and being stupid Laughing

So who have you been refering to, if not to laura?


Feb 12, 14 13:26

All of her points were refering to CH n so were mine. 


For your own good please understand the context n msg before commenting. If Laura has an issue with it she can come back to me ...it doesn't concern you since you are only here looking for a baseless argument.


cheers


 

The text you are quoting:

All of her points were refering to CH n so were mine. 


For your own good please understand the context n msg before commenting. If Laura has an issue with it she can come back to me ...it doesn't concern you since you are only here looking for a baseless argument.


cheers


 


Sami, Feb 12, 2014 @ 20:09
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 123

All of her points were refering to CH n so were mine. 

For your own good please understand the context n msg before commenting. If Laura has an issue with it she can come back to me ...it doesn't concern you since you are only here looking for a baseless argument.

cheers

 


Feb 12, 14 20:09

Correct, of course! but if you're expecting people to read posts ... and, understand the context before commenting, this is the wrong forum (IMHO) Cool

The text you are quoting:

Correct, of course! but if you're expecting people to read posts ... and, understand the context before commenting, this is the wrong forum (IMHO) Cool


Richard H, Feb 12, 2014 @ 21:36
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 124

This is exactly the reasoning of the UDC with respect to playing a game of 'chicken' about EU-Swiss bilateral agreements and relations.

The leverage of one country versus a group of nations does not balance out.

Second, it is easy to assume that because the accepted Swiss legislation provides for a 3 year implemenation window that major European Union nations as well as major elements of the Swiss business community will tolerate such political-economic instability for such an extended period of time.

Third, this accepted referendum will likely cause a 'chilling effect' on any bilateral agreement negotiations because the European Union (and the Swiss government) will understand that the UDC will probably now keep pressing with greater frequency and intensity what might be perceived as anti-EU initiatives on a regular basis.

Fourth, as mentioned by a political scientist on last night's RTS Infrarouge debate, the EU could --even temporarily -- halt cooperation in a number of non-economic areas that greatly affect the Swiss including scientific cooperation and educational exchange programs.

Finally, the EU will likely use this vote as an excuse to press for further concessions in the banking and financial sector. This is the opening that many in the EU, especially Germany and France, have been waiting for.

Of course the EU will probably look for ways to respond proportionally given the slight margin of the vote. They will look to see how the Swiss government finesses the issue when translating the initiative into actual legislation and regulations. 

 

Last but not least, here is a little humor by some Swiss about certain Swiss.


Feb 12, 14 13:46

Interesting video!


Not sure that this argument is exactly the same as the UDC argument. If the UDC do continue pushing for rapid measures then they're not waiting out the 3 years, as I said and that would undermine any re-negociation, as you said. However you are right... it seems that some sections of the EU may already be jumping the gun. Stories of reduction of cooperation in acedemic areas were already reported in the papers today. These must be cases where someone was waiting for an excuse. There can not yet be any valid reason to change anything. The vote changes nothing, it is the following action from the gouvernement that is key.

The text you are quoting:

Interesting video!


Not sure that this argument is exactly the same as the UDC argument. If the UDC do continue pushing for rapid measures then they're not waiting out the 3 years, as I said and that would undermine any re-negociation, as you said. However you are right... it seems that some sections of the EU may already be jumping the gun. Stories of reduction of cooperation in acedemic areas were already reported in the papers today. These must be cases where someone was waiting for an excuse. There can not yet be any valid reason to change anything. The vote changes nothing, it is the following action from the gouvernement that is key.


Richard H, Feb 12, 2014 @ 21:40
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 125

Surely if you tout yourself as the home of neutrality ergo, having an international city ergo Geneva and hosting all UN agencies and the resulting spin-offs comprising of diplomats, NGOs all these people whose staff are most likely international accompanied by their families you will have a huge foreign base esp in said geographical areas.

The text you are quoting:

Surely if you tout yourself as the home of neutrality ergo, having an international city ergo Geneva and hosting all UN agencies and the resulting spin-offs comprising of diplomats, NGOs all these people whose staff are most likely international accompanied by their families you will have a huge foreign base esp in said geographical areas.


Rebz F, Feb 13, 2014 @ 05:41
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 126



One of the delicate issues in this sad story is that Geneva is not typical of Switzerland as a whole and  its “success” is not exactly pleasing to UDC supporters.

The text you are quoting:



One of the delicate issues in this sad story is that Geneva is not typical of Switzerland as a whole and  its “success” is not exactly pleasing to UDC supporters.


Ritchie, Feb 13, 2014 @ 10:02
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Post 127

Interesting video!

Not sure that this argument is exactly the same as the UDC argument. If the UDC do continue pushing for rapid measures then they're not waiting out the 3 years, as I said and that would undermine any re-negociation, as you said. However you are right... it seems that some sections of the EU may already be jumping the gun. Stories of reduction of cooperation in acedemic areas were already reported in the papers today. These must be cases where someone was waiting for an excuse. There can not yet be any valid reason to change anything. The vote changes nothing, it is the following action from the gouvernement that is key.


Feb 12, 14 21:40

On Tuesday (11.2.), the EU suspended talks on energy, stating that the bilateral relationship had to be re-examined before proceeding any further. More via:


http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/Will_the_EU_give_Switzerland_the_cold_shoulder_.html?cid=37931210

The text you are quoting:

On Tuesday (11.2.), the EU suspended talks on energy, stating that the bilateral relationship had to be re-examined before proceeding any further. More via:


http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/Will_the_EU_give_Switzerland_the_cold_shoulder_.html?cid=37931210


rena, Feb 13, 2014 @ 11:42
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Post 128

The Swiss vote of limiting incoming EU nationals might be the right thing in order to ensure more Swiss people get the jobs. I personally don't think it's racist at all: lots of people want to come into CH, and the local folks need to come first. I get it. BUT pre-vote discussion from both sides focused mainly on the above point, taken in isolation of the risk that comes with it: how the EU will react. 


The EU has to react. It can't allow 1 country to go directly against its "free movement within the EU" policy, while still giving this 1 country the same benefits that other countries, who respect all EU principles, receive. 


The EU can react in many ways: duties, limiting movement of CH passports in the EU, trade restrictions, political collaboration, etc. All these things can come back big-time to hurt the CH economy.


I think the Swiss politicians are savvy enough to not let that happen. Will be interesting to see how things play out

The text you are quoting:

The Swiss vote of limiting incoming EU nationals might be the right thing in order to ensure more Swiss people get the jobs. I personally don't think it's racist at all: lots of people want to come into CH, and the local folks need to come first. I get it. BUT pre-vote discussion from both sides focused mainly on the above point, taken in isolation of the risk that comes with it: how the EU will react. 


The EU has to react. It can't allow 1 country to go directly against its "free movement within the EU" policy, while still giving this 1 country the same benefits that other countries, who respect all EU principles, receive. 


The EU can react in many ways: duties, limiting movement of CH passports in the EU, trade restrictions, political collaboration, etc. All these things can come back big-time to hurt the CH economy.


I think the Swiss politicians are savvy enough to not let that happen. Will be interesting to see how things play out


Nir Ofek, Feb 13, 2014 @ 11:56
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Post 129

The Swiss vote of limiting incoming EU nationals might be the right thing in order to ensure more Swiss people get the jobs. I personally don't think it's racist at all: lots of people want to come into CH, and the local folks need to come first. I get it. BUT pre-vote discussion from both sides focused mainly on the above point, taken in isolation of the risk that comes with it: how the EU will react. 

The EU has to react. It can't allow 1 country to go directly against its "free movement within the EU" policy, while still giving this 1 country the same benefits that other countries, who respect all EU principles, receive. 

The EU can react in many ways: duties, limiting movement of CH passports in the EU, trade restrictions, political collaboration, etc. All these things can come back big-time to hurt the CH economy.

I think the Swiss politicians are savvy enough to not let that happen. Will be interesting to see how things play out


Feb 13, 14 11:56

As the Swiss government has to implement a quota system within three years it will indeed be interesting to see the outcome.


When the Swiss referendum held on 6 December 1992 made the application for accession to the EU void the Swiss government came up with the biltateral treaties the sum of which makes a large share of EU law applicable to Switzerland.


Bilateral I
Free movement of people
Air traffic
Road traffic
Agriculture
Technical trade barriers
Public procurement
Science
Bilateral II
Security and asylum/Schengen membership
Cooperation in fraud pursuits
Final stipulations in open questions about agriculture, environment, media, education, care of the elderly, statistics and services.
The text you are quoting:

As the Swiss government has to implement a quota system within three years it will indeed be interesting to see the outcome.


When the Swiss referendum held on 6 December 1992 made the application for accession to the EU void the Swiss government came up with the biltateral treaties the sum of which makes a large share of EU law applicable to Switzerland.


Bilateral I
Free movement of people
Air traffic
Road traffic
Agriculture
Technical trade barriers
Public procurement
Science
Bilateral II
Security and asylum/Schengen membership
Cooperation in fraud pursuits
Final stipulations in open questions about agriculture, environment, media, education, care of the elderly, statistics and services.

rena, Feb 13, 2014 @ 12:12
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Post 130

On Tuesday (11.2.), the EU suspended talks on energy, stating that the bilateral relationship had to be re-examined before proceeding any further. More via:

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/Will_the_EU_give_Switzerland_the_cold_shoulder_.html?cid=37931210


Feb 13, 14 11:42

The link says that "the relationship is unlikely to end in a bitter divorce".


I was referring to, the suspended energy talks, reported in the tribune yesterday,  it seems that elements of the EU are acting before Switzerland, and without thinking. There is also talk about cancelling a lot of academic cooperation. How can that be relevant or of any help to the EU?


These actions seem strange...


 


 

The text you are quoting:

The link says that "the relationship is unlikely to end in a bitter divorce".


I was referring to, the suspended energy talks, reported in the tribune yesterday,  it seems that elements of the EU are acting before Switzerland, and without thinking. There is also talk about cancelling a lot of academic cooperation. How can that be relevant or of any help to the EU?


These actions seem strange...


 


 


Richard H, Feb 13, 2014 @ 13:50
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 131

The link says that "the relationship is unlikely to end in a bitter divorce".

I was referring to, the suspended energy talks, reported in the tribune yesterday,  it seems that elements of the EU are acting before Switzerland, and without thinking. There is also talk about cancelling a lot of academic cooperation. How can that be relevant or of any help to the EU?

These actions seem strange...

 

 


Feb 13, 14 13:50

Richard:


It's not strange, it's signaling. By doing these things very fast, the EU is sending signals to the bodies it needs to influence:


- To Switzerland: that the EU is not playing, and it's serious about taking action if CH keeps going that way


- To other EU countries: that if they go "the swiss way", it won't go without reaction.


The negotiations may take a few years, but the signals and messages are here already now. 

The text you are quoting:

Richard:


It's not strange, it's signaling. By doing these things very fast, the EU is sending signals to the bodies it needs to influence:


- To Switzerland: that the EU is not playing, and it's serious about taking action if CH keeps going that way


- To other EU countries: that if they go "the swiss way", it won't go without reaction.


The negotiations may take a few years, but the signals and messages are here already now. 


Nir Ofek, Feb 13, 2014 @ 14:57
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Post 132

As the Swiss government has to implement a quota system within three years it will indeed be interesting to see the outcome.

When the Swiss referendum held on 6 December 1992 made the application for accession to the EU void the Swiss government came up with the biltateral treaties the sum of which makes a large share of EU law applicable to Switzerland.

Bilateral I Free movement of people Air traffic Road traffic Agriculture Technical trade barriers Public procurement Science Bilateral II Security and asylum/Schengen membership Cooperation in fraud pursuits Final stipulations in open questions about agriculture, environment, media, education, care of the elderly, statistics and services.
Feb 13, 14 12:12

That's the wisdom and creativity I'm talking about...(-; The Swiss top politicians are smart cooking, and found a way before to avoid the EU wrath. Let's see if they can do their magic again. 

The text you are quoting:

That's the wisdom and creativity I'm talking about...(-; The Swiss top politicians are smart cooking, and found a way before to avoid the EU wrath. Let's see if they can do their magic again. 


Nir Ofek, Feb 13, 2014 @ 15:02
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Post 133

(Reuters) - Switzerland stands to lose more than the EU from a vote to restrict immigration because it cannot enjoy all the benefits of the world's biggest market without reciprocal access, European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso said.


http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/02/12/us-eurozone-summit-switzerland-idUKBREA1B0FG20140212

The text you are quoting:

(Reuters) - Switzerland stands to lose more than the EU from a vote to restrict immigration because it cannot enjoy all the benefits of the world's biggest market without reciprocal access, European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso said.


http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/02/12/us-eurozone-summit-switzerland-idUKBREA1B0FG20140212


rena, Feb 13, 2014 @ 15:05
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 134

Richard:

It's not strange, it's signaling. By doing these things very fast, the EU is sending signals to the bodies it needs to influence:

- To Switzerland: that the EU is not playing, and it's serious about taking action if CH keeps going that way

- To other EU countries: that if they go "the swiss way", it won't go without reaction.

The negotiations may take a few years, but the signals and messages are here already now. 


Feb 13, 14 14:57

I agree on the sinalling part. EU seems to be taking this one by one. Next, we could expect them to come back to CH on extending the free movement principle to Croatia, EU's newest member. EU certainly wouldn't wait three years for CH's response on how CH plans to tackle something they willingly accepted.


On CH's end, last I heard, the liberal democrats, who were caught unawares with Sunday's results, were asking the SVP to go explain to Brussels in their own words precisely what they expect to change. Hunting for a link which supports this....

The text you are quoting:

I agree on the sinalling part. EU seems to be taking this one by one. Next, we could expect them to come back to CH on extending the free movement principle to Croatia, EU's newest member. EU certainly wouldn't wait three years for CH's response on how CH plans to tackle something they willingly accepted.


On CH's end, last I heard, the liberal democrats, who were caught unawares with Sunday's results, were asking the SVP to go explain to Brussels in their own words precisely what they expect to change. Hunting for a link which supports this....


Arun K V, Feb 13, 2014 @ 15:09
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 135

Here it is: 


Anger among parties that had opposed the vote was palpable on Monday, with the Swiss Liberal Democrats suggesting that Christoph Blocher, the billionaire industrialist and SVP lawmaker who poured his own money into the quota campaign, be sent to Brussels himself to explain the vote.


"He has an obligation to find a good solution, together with the other parties," the FDP said in a statement.


http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/02/10/swiss-vote-immigration-idUKL5N0LF0VH20140210

The text you are quoting:

Here it is: 


Anger among parties that had opposed the vote was palpable on Monday, with the Swiss Liberal Democrats suggesting that Christoph Blocher, the billionaire industrialist and SVP lawmaker who poured his own money into the quota campaign, be sent to Brussels himself to explain the vote.


"He has an obligation to find a good solution, together with the other parties," the FDP said in a statement.


http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/02/10/swiss-vote-immigration-idUKL5N0LF0VH20140210


Arun K V, Feb 13, 2014 @ 15:15
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 136

(Reuters) - Switzerland stands to lose more than the EU from a vote to restrict immigration because it cannot enjoy all the benefits of the world's biggest market without reciprocal access, European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso said.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/02/12/us-eurozone-summit-switzerland-idUKBREA1B0FG20140212


Feb 13, 14 15:05

As the European Commission President he is bound to say that, and he is right.


In cash terms imports exports between CH/EU are approximately equal. In percentage terms, however, the EU is Switzerland's biggest market and Switzerland is one of the EUs smallest markets.


The "signals" amount to the EU trying to bully Switzerland back into line. Given the way Swiss politics work though, it would seem difficult for the politicians to fall back in line and a lot of damage may well be done in a short time, without negotiation.

The text you are quoting:

As the European Commission President he is bound to say that, and he is right.


In cash terms imports exports between CH/EU are approximately equal. In percentage terms, however, the EU is Switzerland's biggest market and Switzerland is one of the EUs smallest markets.


The "signals" amount to the EU trying to bully Switzerland back into line. Given the way Swiss politics work though, it would seem difficult for the politicians to fall back in line and a lot of damage may well be done in a short time, without negotiation.


Richard H, Feb 13, 2014 @ 15:31
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 137

As the European Commission President he is bound to say that, and he is right.

In cash terms imports exports between CH/EU are approximately equal. In percentage terms, however, the EU is Switzerland's biggest market and Switzerland is one of the EUs smallest markets.

The "signals" amount to the EU trying to bully Switzerland back into line. Given the way Swiss politics work though, it would seem difficult for the politicians to fall back in line and a lot of damage may well be done in a short time, without negotiation.


Feb 13, 14 15:31

That's why "Christoph Blocher, the billionaire industrialist and SVP lawmaker who poured his own money into the quota campaign, sould be sent to Brussels himself to explain the vote."


 

The text you are quoting:

That's why "Christoph Blocher, the billionaire industrialist and SVP lawmaker who poured his own money into the quota campaign, sould be sent to Brussels himself to explain the vote."


 


rena, Feb 13, 2014 @ 15:55
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 138

That's why "Christoph Blocher, the billionaire industrialist and SVP lawmaker who poured his own money into the quota campaign, sould be sent to Brussels himself to explain the vote."

 


Feb 13, 14 15:55

That would be putting two bulls in one China shop.

The text you are quoting:

That would be putting two bulls in one China shop.


Richard H, Feb 13, 2014 @ 15:59
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 139

As the European Commission President he is bound to say that, and he is right.

In cash terms imports exports between CH/EU are approximately equal. In percentage terms, however, the EU is Switzerland's biggest market and Switzerland is one of the EUs smallest markets.

The "signals" amount to the EU trying to bully Switzerland back into line. Given the way Swiss politics work though, it would seem difficult for the politicians to fall back in line and a lot of damage may well be done in a short time, without negotiation.


Feb 13, 14 15:31

Richard:


It's not bullying, it's just politics...(-; But what's going on is of course exactly what you say: the EU is telling CH that either get back in line, or they'll pay a price. Now it's early days so it's all still crude, but in a few months both sides will come up with more creative solutions. 


 

The text you are quoting:

Richard:


It's not bullying, it's just politics...(-; But what's going on is of course exactly what you say: the EU is telling CH that either get back in line, or they'll pay a price. Now it's early days so it's all still crude, but in a few months both sides will come up with more creative solutions. 


 


Nir Ofek, Feb 13, 2014 @ 15:59
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 140

Richard:

It's not strange, it's signaling. By doing these things very fast, the EU is sending signals to the bodies it needs to influence:

- To Switzerland: that the EU is not playing, and it's serious about taking action if CH keeps going that way

- To other EU countries: that if they go "the swiss way", it won't go without reaction.

The negotiations may take a few years, but the signals and messages are here already now. 


Feb 13, 14 14:57

The difference is the Switzerland is not IN the EU. EU countries can't get out. Switzerland can ax it's agreements and then my guess would be they will be renegotiated. Frankly the way the "EU" is talking sounds like bullying as the vote just took place and the Swiss gov't hasn't changed anything. So for them to start axing agreements sounds like they are the ones that will be in breach of the agreements. Anyway, this kind of EU bullying is what makes me happy that Switzerland is not part of the EU. Actually being able to vote in ones own country also makes me happy that Switzerland is not in the EU. 


 


 

The text you are quoting:

The difference is the Switzerland is not IN the EU. EU countries can't get out. Switzerland can ax it's agreements and then my guess would be they will be renegotiated. Frankly the way the "EU" is talking sounds like bullying as the vote just took place and the Swiss gov't hasn't changed anything. So for them to start axing agreements sounds like they are the ones that will be in breach of the agreements. Anyway, this kind of EU bullying is what makes me happy that Switzerland is not part of the EU. Actually being able to vote in ones own country also makes me happy that Switzerland is not in the EU. 


 


 


Mia M, Feb 13, 2014 @ 15:55
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 141

Charging Bull

The text you are quoting:

Charging Bull


Richard H, Feb 13, 2014 @ 16:06
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 142

And why not?


The outcome could be edifying -- e.g., who's the better b.s.-er.

The text you are quoting:

And why not?


The outcome could be edifying -- e.g., who's the better b.s.-er.


Ritchie, Feb 13, 2014 @ 16:02
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 143

I'd say the way the Swiss are bullied by the EU and bullied by the US have alot to do with the fact that the protectionist vote passed.


 


As if no one will by a Swiss watch again outside of Switzerland, or buy toblerone, or try and reduce taxes by basing their company here... mmmm


Shake rattle and roll

The text you are quoting:

I'd say the way the Swiss are bullied by the EU and bullied by the US have alot to do with the fact that the protectionist vote passed.


 


As if no one will by a Swiss watch again outside of Switzerland, or buy toblerone, or try and reduce taxes by basing their company here... mmmm


Shake rattle and roll


Charlie, Feb 13, 2014 @ 16:05
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 144

The difference is the Switzerland is not IN the EU. EU countries can't get out. Switzerland can ax it's agreements and then my guess would be they will be renegotiated. Frankly the way the "EU" is talking sounds like bullying as the vote just took place and the Swiss gov't hasn't changed anything. So for them to start axing agreements sounds like they are the ones that will be in breach of the agreements. Anyway, this kind of EU bullying is what makes me happy that Switzerland is not part of the EU. Actually being able to vote in ones own country also makes me happy that Switzerland is not in the EU. 

 

 


Feb 13, 14 15:55

CH is indeed not part of the EU. But until now it enjoyed all the main benefits of being in it, and aligned itself with nearly all main obligations of being in it (except using the Euro). And I honestly think this is great credit to its politicians. 


All the EU is doing now is sending signals that if CH takes the steps the majority of its people want it to take, then the above situation may be revised. Of course it's the EU's way of influencing Swiss politics, but that happens all the time when countries negotiate how they interact. 


BTW, countries which joined the EU can get out. Such a "divorce" will have a price, but an exit is always possible. 


 


 


 

The text you are quoting:

CH is indeed not part of the EU. But until now it enjoyed all the main benefits of being in it, and aligned itself with nearly all main obligations of being in it (except using the Euro). And I honestly think this is great credit to its politicians. 


All the EU is doing now is sending signals that if CH takes the steps the majority of its people want it to take, then the above situation may be revised. Of course it's the EU's way of influencing Swiss politics, but that happens all the time when countries negotiate how they interact. 


BTW, countries which joined the EU can get out. Such a "divorce" will have a price, but an exit is always possible. 


 


 


 


Nir Ofek, Feb 13, 2014 @ 16:10
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 145

There's no UDC in China! Shanghai could be the next glocals city!


(Neil Webb/Debut Art)


http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20140212-get-hired-in-china


 


 

The text you are quoting:

There's no UDC in China! Shanghai could be the next glocals city!


(Neil Webb/Debut Art)


http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20140212-get-hired-in-china


 


 


Richard H, Feb 13, 2014 @ 16:19
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 146

There's no UDC in China! Shanghai could be the next glocals city!

(Neil Webb/Debut Art)

http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20140212-get-hired-in-china

 

 


Feb 13, 14 16:19

sure go to china and work 2USD per day and they gonna love you! 

The text you are quoting:

sure go to china and work 2USD per day and they gonna love you! 


brad h, Feb 13, 2014 @ 23:35
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Post 147

Want to interview to LeTemps about this topic?


I just called a call from LeTemps newsletter. They're doing a piece on how expats view the vote result, and they asked me if I know people who'd agree to share their views in the interview.  


If you're interested in speaking with the reporter, pls email him directly on Dejan.Nikolic AT letemps.ch (speaks EN + FR). 


Here's what Dejan wrote to me:


"I am interested in knowing what they professionally and/or socially expect from Switzerland going forward, how they feel within their company and if hey are planning to take measures going forward (if yes, what type of). I am also concerned about their employer's reaction, i.e.: did he took the initiative to explain the situation through a company/department communication campaign or, alternatively, is he dealing with queries individually"


Nir

The text you are quoting:

Want to interview to LeTemps about this topic?


I just called a call from LeTemps newsletter. They're doing a piece on how expats view the vote result, and they asked me if I know people who'd agree to share their views in the interview.  


If you're interested in speaking with the reporter, pls email him directly on Dejan.Nikolic AT letemps.ch (speaks EN + FR). 


Here's what Dejan wrote to me:


"I am interested in knowing what they professionally and/or socially expect from Switzerland going forward, how they feel within their company and if hey are planning to take measures going forward (if yes, what type of). I am also concerned about their employer's reaction, i.e.: did he took the initiative to explain the situation through a company/department communication campaign or, alternatively, is he dealing with queries individually"


Nir


Nir Ofek, Feb 14, 2014 @ 10:01
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 148

sure go to china and work 2USD per day and they gonna love you! 


Feb 13, 14 23:35

You may be just a little behind the times regarding salaries in Shanghai there Brad.

The text you are quoting:

You may be just a little behind the times regarding salaries in Shanghai there Brad.


Richard H, Feb 14, 2014 @ 10:24
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Post 149

this is just greedy people acting selfishly

The text you are quoting:

this is just greedy people acting selfishly


parker k, Feb 14, 2014 @ 12:25
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Post 150

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26133592


 


http://www.tt.com/politik/europapolitik/7909981-91/appell-von-zw%C3%B6lf-l%C3%A4ndern-genmais-1507-in-der-eu-nicht-zulassen.csp


 


Read this one.....19 out of 28 EU ministers were against the “1507” but EU still didn’t block it.


So 28 countries have to suffer because government in other countries are blinded by profits.


 


Sorry guys, GOOD or BAD....I rather have a direct democracy of Switzerland where people’s interest…. is heard than completely ignored in the interest of more profit and greed.

The text you are quoting:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26133592


 


http://www.tt.com/politik/europapolitik/7909981-91/appell-von-zw%C3%B6lf-l%C3%A4ndern-genmais-1507-in-der-eu-nicht-zulassen.csp


 


Read this one.....19 out of 28 EU ministers were against the “1507” but EU still didn’t block it.


So 28 countries have to suffer because government in other countries are blinded by profits.


 


Sorry guys, GOOD or BAD....I rather have a direct democracy of Switzerland where people’s interest…. is heard than completely ignored in the interest of more profit and greed.


Sami, Feb 14, 2014 @ 17:44
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Post 151

this is just greedy people acting selfishly


Feb 14, 14 12:25

How is that? 

The text you are quoting:

How is that? 


Mia M, Feb 14, 2014 @ 18:03
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Post 152

My bag got stolen twice in Geneva. The first time inside the reception room of a hotel by a man from Turkey. The video showed him following me inside the hotel. The Geneva police had record of this man, his photo, but they did not know where he lived, so could not catch him.


The second time, my new bag with a new camera, new mobile phone and a lot of cash got stolen from my car by organized crime, one person distracted my attention while others stole my bag..... Worst was the attitude of a Geneva policeman who told me "unless it is murder" when I showed him a list of phone calls made with the stolen mobile phone from me including a Swiss mobile phone number. I asked the police officer if they could do something about the number so as to catch the thieves, thinking it would be an easy job. The police reacted as if there were a lot of murder cases in Geneva, and organized crime such as stealing is not a serious crime in Geneva. The reality is we hear so often now that people get robbed, not killed in Geneva. Both times when we reported the incidents to the Geneva police, they did not seem to care about this kind of cases. People blame worsening condition to "immigrants", not the "no-action" by the police!      

The text you are quoting:

My bag got stolen twice in Geneva. The first time inside the reception room of a hotel by a man from Turkey. The video showed him following me inside the hotel. The Geneva police had record of this man, his photo, but they did not know where he lived, so could not catch him.


The second time, my new bag with a new camera, new mobile phone and a lot of cash got stolen from my car by organized crime, one person distracted my attention while others stole my bag..... Worst was the attitude of a Geneva policeman who told me "unless it is murder" when I showed him a list of phone calls made with the stolen mobile phone from me including a Swiss mobile phone number. I asked the police officer if they could do something about the number so as to catch the thieves, thinking it would be an easy job. The police reacted as if there were a lot of murder cases in Geneva, and organized crime such as stealing is not a serious crime in Geneva. The reality is we hear so often now that people get robbed, not killed in Geneva. Both times when we reported the incidents to the Geneva police, they did not seem to care about this kind of cases. People blame worsening condition to "immigrants", not the "no-action" by the police!      


Jen C, Feb 14, 2014 @ 21:54
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Post 153

My bag got stolen twice in Geneva. The first time inside the reception room of a hotel by a man from Turkey. The video showed him following me inside the hotel. The Geneva police had record of this man, his photo, but they did not know where he lived, so could not catch him.

The second time, my new bag with a new camera, new mobile phone and a lot of cash got stolen from my car by organized crime, one person distracted my attention while others stole my bag..... Worst was the attitude of a Geneva policeman who told me "unless it is murder" when I showed him a list of phone calls made with the stolen mobile phone from me including a Swiss mobile phone number. I asked the police officer if they could do something about the number so as to catch the thieves, thinking it would be an easy job. The police reacted as if there were a lot of murder cases in Geneva, and organized crime such as stealing is not a serious crime in Geneva. The reality is we hear so often now that people get robbed, not killed in Geneva. Both times when we reported the incidents to the Geneva police, they did not seem to care about this kind of cases. People blame worsening condition to "immigrants", not the "no-action" by the police!      


Feb 14, 14 21:54

I feel sorry about what happened to you.


However I must say the last part of your comment made me laugh.


Only someone with no knowledge of the French language could make such a stupid statement.


Look in the reader's section of Tribune de Genève and you will see how the real Genevois complain about their police.


 

The text you are quoting:

I feel sorry about what happened to you.


However I must say the last part of your comment made me laugh.


Only someone with no knowledge of the French language could make such a stupid statement.


Look in the reader's section of Tribune de Genève and you will see how the real Genevois complain about their police.


 


Richard B, Feb 14, 2014 @ 23:01
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Post 154

My bag got stolen twice in Geneva. The first time inside the reception room of a hotel by a man from Turkey. The video showed him following me inside the hotel. The Geneva police had record of this man, his photo, but they did not know where he lived, so could not catch him.

The second time, my new bag with a new camera, new mobile phone and a lot of cash got stolen from my car by organized crime, one person distracted my attention while others stole my bag..... Worst was the attitude of a Geneva policeman who told me "unless it is murder" when I showed him a list of phone calls made with the stolen mobile phone from me including a Swiss mobile phone number. I asked the police officer if they could do something about the number so as to catch the thieves, thinking it would be an easy job. The police reacted as if there were a lot of murder cases in Geneva, and organized crime such as stealing is not a serious crime in Geneva. The reality is we hear so often now that people get robbed, not killed in Geneva. Both times when we reported the incidents to the Geneva police, they did not seem to care about this kind of cases. People blame worsening condition to "immigrants", not the "no-action" by the police!      


Feb 14, 14 21:54

Genevans have been blaming all thier problems on foreigners since decades now. It's not new. So, Before the FMOP it was "the French" (and other immigrants) who were causing all the problems. So if you listen to Genevans, I'm surprised that Geneva voted the way it did. 


But what you outline has nothing to do with immigration. It has to do with the total imcompetence and indifference of the police. This is a problem also in Lausanne. 


The Swiss need to overhaul thier police forces and probably thier entire justice system. 

The text you are quoting:

Genevans have been blaming all thier problems on foreigners since decades now. It's not new. So, Before the FMOP it was "the French" (and other immigrants) who were causing all the problems. So if you listen to Genevans, I'm surprised that Geneva voted the way it did. 


But what you outline has nothing to do with immigration. It has to do with the total imcompetence and indifference of the police. This is a problem also in Lausanne. 


The Swiss need to overhaul thier police forces and probably thier entire justice system. 


Mia M, Feb 15, 2014 @ 09:27
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Post 155

Well, we Genevois have tremendous problems to find proper accommodation at a decent price due to the immigration. There are about 10'000 Swiss who quit their country each year due to this problem. Have you ever heard of such statistics anywhere else?


However many of us work for multinational companies therefore we weighed the pros and cons and decided to vote against the UDC immigration bill which threatened our jobs.


Mia, if you have lived in Geneva for many years, you should know that the Genevois tend to complain about everything - probably the French influence - but it doesn't make them horrible racists for this. 

The text you are quoting:

Well, we Genevois have tremendous problems to find proper accommodation at a decent price due to the immigration. There are about 10'000 Swiss who quit their country each year due to this problem. Have you ever heard of such statistics anywhere else?


However many of us work for multinational companies therefore we weighed the pros and cons and decided to vote against the UDC immigration bill which threatened our jobs.


Mia, if you have lived in Geneva for many years, you should know that the Genevois tend to complain about everything - probably the French influence - but it doesn't make them horrible racists for this. 


Richard B, Feb 15, 2014 @ 13:48
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Post 156

Yes, Richard, I know. That is sort of my point in reply to Jen. The Genevans complaining about crime being all about "foreigners" is nothing new in Geneva. I think, the vote shows the really story of how they fell about immigration. 


 

The text you are quoting:

Yes, Richard, I know. That is sort of my point in reply to Jen. The Genevans complaining about crime being all about "foreigners" is nothing new in Geneva. I think, the vote shows the really story of how they fell about immigration. 


 


Mia M, Feb 15, 2014 @ 14:04
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Post 157

Maybe you also need to take into account the amount of people that hold a Swiss passport, but are not Swiss by birth and did have the right to vote.

The text you are quoting:

Maybe you also need to take into account the amount of people that hold a Swiss passport, but are not Swiss by birth and did have the right to vote.


ThomasNL, Feb 15, 2014 @ 14:29
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Post 158

My bag got stolen twice in Geneva. The first time inside the reception room of a hotel by a man from Turkey. The video showed him following me inside the hotel. The Geneva police had record of this man, his photo, but they did not know where he lived, so could not catch him.

The second time, my new bag with a new camera, new mobile phone and a lot of cash got stolen from my car by organized crime, one person distracted my attention while others stole my bag..... Worst was the attitude of a Geneva policeman who told me "unless it is murder" when I showed him a list of phone calls made with the stolen mobile phone from me including a Swiss mobile phone number. I asked the police officer if they could do something about the number so as to catch the thieves, thinking it would be an easy job. The police reacted as if there were a lot of murder cases in Geneva, and organized crime such as stealing is not a serious crime in Geneva. The reality is we hear so often now that people get robbed, not killed in Geneva. Both times when we reported the incidents to the Geneva police, they did not seem to care about this kind of cases. People blame worsening condition to "immigrants", not the "no-action" by the police!      


Feb 14, 14 21:54

You seem to think you live in some kind of paradise where nothing happens. Its a basic rule to never leave things of value in sight in a car. If you are in a bar you keep your bag in sight or put the handle around a chair leg. Stories of being distracted and getting robbed by someone happens all the time, but that info probably never reached you. I dont know where you are from in the US, but someone coming from there, you would expect to be a bit more vigilant.


I guess you watched too many police shows where they use a satellite to track someones phone. Unless you have the application installed where you can pin point where your phone is and inform the police of the exact location, they cant do anything.


You need to be a bit more careful with your things or not walk around with a handbag filled with money and expensive phones.

The text you are quoting:

You seem to think you live in some kind of paradise where nothing happens. Its a basic rule to never leave things of value in sight in a car. If you are in a bar you keep your bag in sight or put the handle around a chair leg. Stories of being distracted and getting robbed by someone happens all the time, but that info probably never reached you. I dont know where you are from in the US, but someone coming from there, you would expect to be a bit more vigilant.


I guess you watched too many police shows where they use a satellite to track someones phone. Unless you have the application installed where you can pin point where your phone is and inform the police of the exact location, they cant do anything.


You need to be a bit more careful with your things or not walk around with a handbag filled with money and expensive phones.


ThomasNL, Feb 15, 2014 @ 14:39
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 159

1)  Maybe I should explain further. I provided the police office at the Geneve train station with a copy of the phone calls the thieves made after they stole my mobile phone (it was inside my bag), most of the phone numbers they had just called were international, but one phone number was a 076...., local Swiss mobile phone number. I was able to obtain the information from the phone company because I just purchased this prepaid phone card and did not use it yet. The phone company directed me to use the internet and printed all the phone numbers right away. I thought if the police just verify with the telephone company, they could easily find the owner of this phone, or to whom that phone number belongs......, and would easily catch the thieves. That was when the policeman told me that they would not do it, unless it is murder. That brings to my second issue.


2)  This is an organized crime. It was not done by one person. My son was taking his suitcase out of the trunk, carrying his lapton on his shoulder, and I was standing outside the driver's side of my car. Someone walked up to my son, I was worried, so I went over to them at the trunk of the car. Meanwhile another person (I did not see it though) took my bag (I just bought a new bag, beige color, so very obvious) from middle of my car, between driver seat and co-driver seat. And then I noticed, all of a sudden, the crowded area were like no persons there. That was why I believe the Geneva police should do something about this, because the organized crime is increasing. I am not a professional, so maybe I was wrong to think it would be easy for the police to find these thieves through this phone number. If they want to do it, they can still do it now. I don't think they care. So the problems still exist, and become worse. That brings to my next point.


3) People complain about these problems and blame them onto people from other countries. But if the police do a better job, the situation would improve. These thives may go elsewhere. So the Swiss people should not mix up these issues.


 


 

The text you are quoting:

1)  Maybe I should explain further. I provided the police office at the Geneve train station with a copy of the phone calls the thieves made after they stole my mobile phone (it was inside my bag), most of the phone numbers they had just called were international, but one phone number was a 076...., local Swiss mobile phone number. I was able to obtain the information from the phone company because I just purchased this prepaid phone card and did not use it yet. The phone company directed me to use the internet and printed all the phone numbers right away. I thought if the police just verify with the telephone company, they could easily find the owner of this phone, or to whom that phone number belongs......, and would easily catch the thieves. That was when the policeman told me that they would not do it, unless it is murder. That brings to my second issue.


2)  This is an organized crime. It was not done by one person. My son was taking his suitcase out of the trunk, carrying his lapton on his shoulder, and I was standing outside the driver's side of my car. Someone walked up to my son, I was worried, so I went over to them at the trunk of the car. Meanwhile another person (I did not see it though) took my bag (I just bought a new bag, beige color, so very obvious) from middle of my car, between driver seat and co-driver seat. And then I noticed, all of a sudden, the crowded area were like no persons there. That was why I believe the Geneva police should do something about this, because the organized crime is increasing. I am not a professional, so maybe I was wrong to think it would be easy for the police to find these thieves through this phone number. If they want to do it, they can still do it now. I don't think they care. So the problems still exist, and become worse. That brings to my next point.


3) People complain about these problems and blame them onto people from other countries. But if the police do a better job, the situation would improve. These thives may go elsewhere. So the Swiss people should not mix up these issues.


 


 


Jen C, Feb 15, 2014 @ 15:15
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 160

I did not understand what you meant by 10,000 Swiss quitting the country - you mean they renounce their citizenship, or they just left to live somewhere else but still keeping their citizenship? This is a big difference.

The text you are quoting:

I did not understand what you meant by 10,000 Swiss quitting the country - you mean they renounce their citizenship, or they just left to live somewhere else but still keeping their citizenship? This is a big difference.


Jen C, Feb 15, 2014 @ 15:47
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 161

Maybe you also need to take into account the amount of people that hold a Swiss passport, but are not Swiss by birth and did have the right to vote.


Feb 15, 14 14:29

Not quite right Thomas. 


Anyone acquiring the Swiss nationality will get the same rights as a Swiss-born citizen including the right to vote and to be elected at the municipal, cantonal or federal level (BTW Oskar Freysinger, the UDC tenor, was Austrian).


 

The text you are quoting:

Not quite right Thomas. 


Anyone acquiring the Swiss nationality will get the same rights as a Swiss-born citizen including the right to vote and to be elected at the municipal, cantonal or federal level (BTW Oskar Freysinger, the UDC tenor, was Austrian).


 


Richard B, Feb 15, 2014 @ 17:29
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 162

Well, we Genevois have tremendous problems to find proper accommodation at a decent price due to the immigration. There are about 10'000 Swiss who quit their country each year due to this problem. Have you ever heard of such statistics anywhere else?

However many of us work for multinational companies therefore we weighed the pros and cons and decided to vote against the UDC immigration bill which threatened our jobs.

Mia, if you have lived in Geneva for many years, you should know that the Genevois tend to complain about everything - probably the French influence - but it doesn't make them horrible racists for this. 


Feb 15, 14 13:48

Richard B:


Where is this data coming from, that 10,000 Swiss folks immigrate out of CH each year cos they find decent-priced housing?


 

The text you are quoting:

Richard B:


Where is this data coming from, that 10,000 Swiss folks immigrate out of CH each year cos they find decent-priced housing?


 


Nir Ofek, Feb 15, 2014 @ 17:29
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 163

I did not understand what you meant by 10,000 Swiss quitting the country - you mean they renounce their citizenship, or they just left to live somewhere else but still keeping their citizenship? This is a big difference.


Feb 15, 14 15:47

Jen, I am talking about Swiss citizens (mainly Genevois) going to France as they can't afford to rent a flat in Geneva any longer. 


We keep our Swiss passports - why would be deprived of it? - but we are forced to live abroad simply because some of the new immigrants are very wealthy and can afford rentals a Swiss or foreign citizen would simply not do.


Regarding the police I totally agree with you that Geneva police is below standards but it is not the same in other cantons. Your situation would have been handled very differently in Vaud or Zurich. 


I don't think that in the USA the police has the same efficiency in all states (sorry but I don't believe in such garbage as "the Experts" TV series).


However there is differently room for improvement for the GPD (Geneva police department) or should we film a new series called "GPD blues"?


 

The text you are quoting:

Jen, I am talking about Swiss citizens (mainly Genevois) going to France as they can't afford to rent a flat in Geneva any longer. 


We keep our Swiss passports - why would be deprived of it? - but we are forced to live abroad simply because some of the new immigrants are very wealthy and can afford rentals a Swiss or foreign citizen would simply not do.


Regarding the police I totally agree with you that Geneva police is below standards but it is not the same in other cantons. Your situation would have been handled very differently in Vaud or Zurich. 


I don't think that in the USA the police has the same efficiency in all states (sorry but I don't believe in such garbage as "the Experts" TV series).


However there is differently room for improvement for the GPD (Geneva police department) or should we film a new series called "GPD blues"?


 


Richard B, Feb 15, 2014 @ 17:35
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 164

Nir:  It comes from the RTS (radio télévision suisse) and it is an average figure over the last 5 years. 


This includes people definitively or temporarily leaving Switzerland for professional reasons but it seems the majority is now Swiss citizens (especially from Geneva) who are fed up of living in a 4 pièces of 65 sqm for 4 people and paying CHF 3,000. 


The housing prices have skyrocketed since 2002 but the salaries have not followed the same progression. E.g. a flat  that used to cost CHF 1M is now trading for CHF 1.5 if not worse.

The text you are quoting:

Nir:  It comes from the RTS (radio télévision suisse) and it is an average figure over the last 5 years. 


This includes people definitively or temporarily leaving Switzerland for professional reasons but it seems the majority is now Swiss citizens (especially from Geneva) who are fed up of living in a 4 pièces of 65 sqm for 4 people and paying CHF 3,000. 


The housing prices have skyrocketed since 2002 but the salaries have not followed the same progression. E.g. a flat  that used to cost CHF 1M is now trading for CHF 1.5 if not worse.


Richard B, Feb 15, 2014 @ 17:48
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 165

Richard:


You qoute that numbers as if they're facts, but they ain't. I don't see anything on RTS saying 10K Swiss immigrate out of CH each year cos they find good housing. And in your new post you say it's actually Swiss folks leaving temporarily or permenantly for professional reasons, which is different than immigrating (which implies a permanent interntion) for housing reasons. 


If you want to bring numbers into the discussion then great, but bring numbers which are facts.


 

The text you are quoting:

Richard:


You qoute that numbers as if they're facts, but they ain't. I don't see anything on RTS saying 10K Swiss immigrate out of CH each year cos they find good housing. And in your new post you say it's actually Swiss folks leaving temporarily or permenantly for professional reasons, which is different than immigrating (which implies a permanent interntion) for housing reasons. 


If you want to bring numbers into the discussion then great, but bring numbers which are facts.


 


Nir Ofek, Feb 15, 2014 @ 17:56
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 166

What I gather from this whole unending thread is both Swiss and foreign communities need to communicate in a more effective way.


We are all on the same boat - some just for a short period, others for longer - and we should all benefit of understanding our respective needs, fears and ways of living.


Maybe you have heard of a small village in Switzerland with no foreigner citizen who voted at 100% for the UDC initiatve.


The same is true for some expats who have no idea what pressures Switzerland gets from the UE and the US and also what the common Swiss man or woman lives. We are not all senior account executives in private banks earning a 6 figure salary. 


The same for the expats. Not all work for P&G or PM with high salaries and incredible benefits. Many are just doing an internship at UN and do not even earn a salary or just get small compensation.


Let's keep this in mind.

The text you are quoting:

What I gather from this whole unending thread is both Swiss and foreign communities need to communicate in a more effective way.


We are all on the same boat - some just for a short period, others for longer - and we should all benefit of understanding our respective needs, fears and ways of living.


Maybe you have heard of a small village in Switzerland with no foreigner citizen who voted at 100% for the UDC initiatve.


The same is true for some expats who have no idea what pressures Switzerland gets from the UE and the US and also what the common Swiss man or woman lives. We are not all senior account executives in private banks earning a 6 figure salary. 


The same for the expats. Not all work for P&G or PM with high salaries and incredible benefits. Many are just doing an internship at UN and do not even earn a salary or just get small compensation.


Let's keep this in mind.


Richard B, Feb 15, 2014 @ 17:53
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 167

Richard:

You qoute that numbers as if they're facts, but they ain't. I don't see anything on RTS saying 10K Swiss immigrate out of CH each year cos they find good housing. And in your new post you say it's actually Swiss folks leaving temporarily or permenantly for professional reasons, which is different than immigrating (which implies a permanent interntion) for housing reasons. 

If you want to bring numbers into the discussion then great, but bring numbers which are facts.

 


Feb 15, 14 17:56

Nir:


Have a look at this thread:


http://www.expatries-suisses.com/EXPATRIES-SUISSES.pdf


I agree that the 10,000 Swiss immigrating out of Switzerland do it for various reasons but the Swiss TV and radio often mentioned that there is a link between the drying up of the housing market and the out-migration.


RTS is mainly broadcast news, therefore I am not surprised you don't find all the written news.


 


 

The text you are quoting:

Nir:


Have a look at this thread:


http://www.expatries-suisses.com/EXPATRIES-SUISSES.pdf


I agree that the 10,000 Swiss immigrating out of Switzerland do it for various reasons but the Swiss TV and radio often mentioned that there is a link between the drying up of the housing market and the out-migration.


RTS is mainly broadcast news, therefore I am not surprised you don't find all the written news.


 


 


Richard B, Feb 15, 2014 @ 18:13
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 168

Nir:

Have a look at this thread:

http://www.expatries-suisses.com/EXPATRIES-SUISSES.pdf

I agree that the 10,000 Swiss immigrating out of Switzerland do it for various reasons but the Swiss TV and radio often mentioned that there is a link between the drying up of the housing market and the out-migration.

RTS is mainly broadcast news, therefore I am not surprised you don't find all the written news.

 

 


Feb 15, 14 18:13

I watch RTS and Leman Bleu on a regular basis and have never heard such a statement. Furthermore, RTS are usually pretty careful about backing up their numbers and usually cite some sort of academic or think tank study as reference. In addition, RTS not only broadcasts but also has lots of information on its website. So, I too would love to see where those numbers and rationale come from.


 

The text you are quoting:

I watch RTS and Leman Bleu on a regular basis and have never heard such a statement. Furthermore, RTS are usually pretty careful about backing up their numbers and usually cite some sort of academic or think tank study as reference. In addition, RTS not only broadcasts but also has lots of information on its website. So, I too would love to see where those numbers and rationale come from.


 


Translator, Feb 15, 2014 @ 18:56
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Post 169

This was said several times at the RTS la première (radio) and I did not invent anything. As I live in France I don't have access to Swiss TV, therefore I listen to the news on the radio.


Plus this is backed up by the link of the Swiss expatriates society.


 

The text you are quoting:

This was said several times at the RTS la première (radio) and I did not invent anything. As I live in France I don't have access to Swiss TV, therefore I listen to the news on the radio.


Plus this is backed up by the link of the Swiss expatriates society.


 


Richard B, Feb 15, 2014 @ 19:20
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 170

Although immigration to the Geneva area does add some pressures in housing, Avenir Suisse, a major national think tank cites Geneva's housing and building regulations as a major factor. 


'In Geneva, more than in other places, the problems are homemade: the market for land is the most heavily regulated in the country, but at the same time there is less new building in Geneva than anywhere else. In a doomed effort to achieve “fair” land prices and rents, the Geneva system is laying obstacles in the way of construction and disabling market mechanisms. In doing so it’s creating a housing crisis that is detracting from the quality of life of the people living there.' http://www.avenir-suisse.ch/en/26370/hausgemachte-knappheit-3/


 

The text you are quoting:

Although immigration to the Geneva area does add some pressures in housing, Avenir Suisse, a major national think tank cites Geneva's housing and building regulations as a major factor. 


'In Geneva, more than in other places, the problems are homemade: the market for land is the most heavily regulated in the country, but at the same time there is less new building in Geneva than anywhere else. In a doomed effort to achieve “fair” land prices and rents, the Geneva system is laying obstacles in the way of construction and disabling market mechanisms. In doing so it’s creating a housing crisis that is detracting from the quality of life of the people living there.' http://www.avenir-suisse.ch/en/26370/hausgemachte-knappheit-3/


 


Translator, Feb 15, 2014 @ 19:09
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 171

This was said several times at the RTS la première (radio) and I did not invent anything. As I live in France I don't have access to Swiss TV, therefore I listen to the news on the radio.

Plus this is backed up by the link of the Swiss expatriates society.

 


Feb 15, 14 19:20

Ok, I read that link and there is nothing that specifies that the main reason for leaving Switzerland is the housing shortage. Did I miss it?

The text you are quoting:

Ok, I read that link and there is nothing that specifies that the main reason for leaving Switzerland is the housing shortage. Did I miss it?


Translator, Feb 15, 2014 @ 19:30
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 172

Actually a lot of the "foreigners" working in Geneva live in neighboring France, too. Swiss citizens can pay lower rents based on their income while non-Swiss citizens have to pay normal rents for same types of housing. Swiss government and its people have done a good job so far in making proper use of foreign resources and maintaining good living standards for its own people. For immigration, they seem to handle it appropriately, more strict than in the US, but not totally shut off.     

The text you are quoting:

Actually a lot of the "foreigners" working in Geneva live in neighboring France, too. Swiss citizens can pay lower rents based on their income while non-Swiss citizens have to pay normal rents for same types of housing. Swiss government and its people have done a good job so far in making proper use of foreign resources and maintaining good living standards for its own people. For immigration, they seem to handle it appropriately, more strict than in the US, but not totally shut off.     


Jen C, Feb 15, 2014 @ 19:46
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Post 173

@Translator:


As I said earlier, 10,000 is a global number including everything but you see that I didn't make up this figure.


May I ask you if you have many Swiss friends and how many moved to France because they just couldn't find accommodation in Geneva? 


About half of my friends had either to move to the outskirts of Geneva, to the canton of Vaud or to expatriate to 01 or 74. And they would have all preferred to stay in Geneva if they had the choice.Nobody wants to commute over 2 hours per day and to be subject to two administrations. 

The text you are quoting:

@Translator:


As I said earlier, 10,000 is a global number including everything but you see that I didn't make up this figure.


May I ask you if you have many Swiss friends and how many moved to France because they just couldn't find accommodation in Geneva? 


About half of my friends had either to move to the outskirts of Geneva, to the canton of Vaud or to expatriate to 01 or 74. And they would have all preferred to stay in Geneva if they had the choice.Nobody wants to commute over 2 hours per day and to be subject to two administrations. 


Richard B, Feb 15, 2014 @ 20:01
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 174

BTW Translator, where do you live? 


CQFD mate! (not an insult but a French abreviation meaning "ce qu'il fallait démontrer").

The text you are quoting:

BTW Translator, where do you live? 


CQFD mate! (not an insult but a French abreviation meaning "ce qu'il fallait démontrer").


Richard B, Feb 15, 2014 @ 20:08
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 175



Among my Genevan and other Swiss friends and acquaintances some have indeed “emigrated” to Vaud (mostly around Nyon),  but only a handful have opted for neighbouring France, deterrents being the admin. stuff, the long and costly commute, inadequate hospital facilities, the quality of the accommodation (which looks so pretty when it’s new but soon shows signs of wear and tear), etc., etc.


A French/American couple have recently returned to Geneva and others are hoping to do the same -- as soon as they find somewhere to live.

The text you are quoting:



Among my Genevan and other Swiss friends and acquaintances some have indeed “emigrated” to Vaud (mostly around Nyon),  but only a handful have opted for neighbouring France, deterrents being the admin. stuff, the long and costly commute, inadequate hospital facilities, the quality of the accommodation (which looks so pretty when it’s new but soon shows signs of wear and tear), etc., etc.


A French/American couple have recently returned to Geneva and others are hoping to do the same -- as soon as they find somewhere to live.


Ritchie, Feb 15, 2014 @ 20:47
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 176

BTW Translator, where do you live? 

CQFD mate! (not an insult but a French abreviation meaning "ce qu'il fallait démontrer").


Feb 15, 14 20:08

what does Translator's place of residence matter to the discussion? We're discussing a general point, and whether Translator, or me, or you, live in Geneva or in France or in South Africa proves nothing...

The text you are quoting:

what does Translator's place of residence matter to the discussion? We're discussing a general point, and whether Translator, or me, or you, live in Geneva or in France or in South Africa proves nothing...


Nir Ofek, Feb 15, 2014 @ 22:17
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 177

Although immigration to the Geneva area does add some pressures in housing, Avenir Suisse, a major national think tank cites Geneva's housing and building regulations as a major factor. 

'In Geneva, more than in other places, the problems are homemade: the market for land is the most heavily regulated in the country, but at the same time there is less new building in Geneva than anywhere else. In a doomed effort to achieve “fair” land prices and rents, the Geneva system is laying obstacles in the way of construction and disabling market mechanisms. In doing so it’s creating a housing crisis that is detracting from the quality of life of the people living there.' http://www.avenir-suisse.ch/en/26370/hausgemachte-knappheit-3/

 


Feb 15, 14 19:09

That makes a lot of sense. 


The Geneva authorities work very hard to pull foreign companies into the region with their expat employees. Then these companies come here, and it turns out the Geneva authorities didn't worry for enough housing for everyone. So who's to blame for this? The expat employees of course...

The text you are quoting:

That makes a lot of sense. 


The Geneva authorities work very hard to pull foreign companies into the region with their expat employees. Then these companies come here, and it turns out the Geneva authorities didn't worry for enough housing for everyone. So who's to blame for this? The expat employees of course...


Nir Ofek, Feb 15, 2014 @ 22:20
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 178

Nir:

Have a look at this thread:

http://www.expatries-suisses.com/EXPATRIES-SUISSES.pdf

I agree that the 10,000 Swiss immigrating out of Switzerland do it for various reasons but the Swiss TV and radio often mentioned that there is a link between the drying up of the housing market and the out-migration.

RTS is mainly broadcast news, therefore I am not surprised you don't find all the written news.

 

 


Feb 15, 14 18:13

In short, this "fact" you quote about 10K Swiss leaving each year due to housing issues is false. 


My point is not about the actual number: it might be 10,000 or 20,000 and it wouldn't matter much to this discussion. My point is that you're misleading people by presenting assumptions as facts. 


 

The text you are quoting:

In short, this "fact" you quote about 10K Swiss leaving each year due to housing issues is false. 


My point is not about the actual number: it might be 10,000 or 20,000 and it wouldn't matter much to this discussion. My point is that you're misleading people by presenting assumptions as facts. 


 


Nir Ofek, Feb 15, 2014 @ 22:23
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 179

BTW Translator, where do you live? 

CQFD mate! (not an insult but a French abreviation meaning "ce qu'il fallait démontrer").


Feb 15, 14 20:08

A. I live in Geneva and have done so for many years. Yes, I have lots of Swiss friends, none of whom live in France. 


B. All of the Swiss colleagues I work with live in Geneva. 

The text you are quoting:

A. I live in Geneva and have done so for many years. Yes, I have lots of Swiss friends, none of whom live in France. 


B. All of the Swiss colleagues I work with live in Geneva. 


Translator, Feb 15, 2014 @ 22:48
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Post 180

@Translator:

As I said earlier, 10,000 is a global number including everything but you see that I didn't make up this figure.

May I ask you if you have many Swiss friends and how many moved to France because they just couldn't find accommodation in Geneva? 

About half of my friends had either to move to the outskirts of Geneva, to the canton of Vaud or to expatriate to 01 or 74. And they would have all preferred to stay in Geneva if they had the choice.Nobody wants to commute over 2 hours per day and to be subject to two administrations. 


Feb 15, 14 20:01

In fact, some of my Genevois Swiss colleagues have two apartments. They sublet one out at inflated prices. Native Genevois are also much more likely to know about cooperatives, Gerance Immobilier Municipal and all the other housing foundations here in Geneva that expatriates don't have a clue about. 


Swiss leave Switzerland for all kinds of reasons. Some want more space, some want more sun. Some want more fun. I've no argument with the figure you cited, just the way you tried to link it to housing shortage and foreign immigration.

The text you are quoting:

In fact, some of my Genevois Swiss colleagues have two apartments. They sublet one out at inflated prices. Native Genevois are also much more likely to know about cooperatives, Gerance Immobilier Municipal and all the other housing foundations here in Geneva that expatriates don't have a clue about. 


Swiss leave Switzerland for all kinds of reasons. Some want more space, some want more sun. Some want more fun. I've no argument with the figure you cited, just the way you tried to link it to housing shortage and foreign immigration.


Translator, Feb 15, 2014 @ 22:51
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 181

If someone just works in Switzerland, but leaves the country when s/he retires....., that is not immigration. My personal experience/observation confirms what Translator has stated. Local Swiss has cheaper apartment, or subsidized apartment, while newcomers have difficulty finding housing and have to live in France.... and pay higher rent.


Also, some Swiss may live outside the country partially to avoid paying taxes. I do not know if this is true or not, but that is what I have heard.  


 

The text you are quoting:

If someone just works in Switzerland, but leaves the country when s/he retires....., that is not immigration. My personal experience/observation confirms what Translator has stated. Local Swiss has cheaper apartment, or subsidized apartment, while newcomers have difficulty finding housing and have to live in France.... and pay higher rent.


Also, some Swiss may live outside the country partially to avoid paying taxes. I do not know if this is true or not, but that is what I have heard.  


 


Jen C, Feb 15, 2014 @ 23:52
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 182

If someone just works in Switzerland, but leaves the country when s/he retires....., that is not immigration. My personal experience/observation confirms what Translator has stated. Local Swiss has cheaper apartment, or subsidized apartment, while newcomers have difficulty finding housing and have to live in France.... and pay higher rent.

Also, some Swiss may live outside the country partially to avoid paying taxes. I do not know if this is true or not, but that is what I have heard.  

 


Feb 15, 14 23:52

After living in Geneva a few years, foreigners also have access to subsidized housing. 


But, to get subsidized housing your salary has to be really very low and the lists are very long for those apartments as well. They are not easy to get. 

The text you are quoting:

After living in Geneva a few years, foreigners also have access to subsidized housing. 


But, to get subsidized housing your salary has to be really very low and the lists are very long for those apartments as well. They are not easy to get. 


Mia M, Feb 16, 2014 @ 09:13
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 183

(why can't we edit???) 


I forgot to mention, living in France does not mean you do not owe taxes. 

The text you are quoting:

(why can't we edit???) 


I forgot to mention, living in France does not mean you do not owe taxes. 


Mia M, Feb 16, 2014 @ 09:21
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 184

CH refuses extension of EU deal to Croatia. Now the ball is EU's court.


http://www.letemps.ch/Page/Uuid/f714481c-9687-11e3-8ab8-8ecdb8ef6904/Suisse-UE_lescalade_du_pire


Justice Minister Simonetta Sommaruga called Croatian Foreign Minister Vesna Pusic to tell her Switzerland would not be able to sign the deal extending the right of free access to Switzerland to the EU's newest member state.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26214138

The text you are quoting:

CH refuses extension of EU deal to Croatia. Now the ball is EU's court.


http://www.letemps.ch/Page/Uuid/f714481c-9687-11e3-8ab8-8ecdb8ef6904/Suisse-UE_lescalade_du_pire


Justice Minister Simonetta Sommaruga called Croatian Foreign Minister Vesna Pusic to tell her Switzerland would not be able to sign the deal extending the right of free access to Switzerland to the EU's newest member state.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26214138


Arun K V, Feb 16, 2014 @ 09:27
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 185

Sorry, but this thread has taken a complete different turn and now it is not about facts but personal feelings and experiences.


Also, somehow this discussion has become about Geneva and housing discussion but if I am correct that Kanton actually voted against the initiative. 


Swiss people have just given a small indication to their Government that 1/4 population being foreign some measures are to be put in place to keep control of the situation otherwise it will get out of hand...it will be too late if nothing is done now.


No need to panic and no need to insult Swiss people for looking after their own interest. Really sorry but it is not their fault that governments in your country have neglected the needs of their people and are going down shit drain in terms of unemployment and finances.


 


 


 

The text you are quoting:

Sorry, but this thread has taken a complete different turn and now it is not about facts but personal feelings and experiences.


Also, somehow this discussion has become about Geneva and housing discussion but if I am correct that Kanton actually voted against the initiative. 


Swiss people have just given a small indication to their Government that 1/4 population being foreign some measures are to be put in place to keep control of the situation otherwise it will get out of hand...it will be too late if nothing is done now.


No need to panic and no need to insult Swiss people for looking after their own interest. Really sorry but it is not their fault that governments in your country have neglected the needs of their people and are going down shit drain in terms of unemployment and finances.


 


 


 


Sami, Feb 16, 2014 @ 11:41
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 186

Sorry, but this thread has taken a complete different turn and now it is not about facts but personal feelings and experiences.

Also, somehow this discussion has become about Geneva and housing discussion but if I am correct that Kanton actually voted against the initiative. 

Swiss people have just given a small indication to their Government that 1/4 population being foreign some measures are to be put in place to keep control of the situation otherwise it will get out of hand...it will be too late if nothing is done now.

No need to panic and no need to insult Swiss people for looking after their own interest. Really sorry but it is not their fault that governments in your country have neglected the needs of their people and are going down shit drain in terms of unemployment and finances.

 

 

 


Feb 16, 14 11:41

of course its about opinions and personal experiences


facts are just used to back up a persons already formed opinion


for "facts" just go to 24Heures newspaper about this subject...amazingly some "expert" commented that its nothing to do with xenophobia....I never realised the Swiss could actually do comedy until reading that


Ultimately its greedy people protecting themseleves from those damn pesky non-whites meanwhile perfectly happily to shaft the system while employing Thai/Polish cleaners or au pairs

The text you are quoting:

of course its about opinions and personal experiences


facts are just used to back up a persons already formed opinion


for "facts" just go to 24Heures newspaper about this subject...amazingly some "expert" commented that its nothing to do with xenophobia....I never realised the Swiss could actually do comedy until reading that


Ultimately its greedy people protecting themseleves from those damn pesky non-whites meanwhile perfectly happily to shaft the system while employing Thai/Polish cleaners or au pairs


parker k, Feb 16, 2014 @ 12:25
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 187

of course its about opinions and personal experiences

facts are just used to back up a persons already formed opinion

for "facts" just go to 24Heures newspaper about this subject...amazingly some "expert" commented that its nothing to do with xenophobia....I never realised the Swiss could actually do comedy until reading that

Ultimately its greedy people protecting themseleves from those damn pesky non-whites meanwhile perfectly happily to shaft the system while employing Thai/Polish cleaners or au pairs


Feb 16, 14 12:25

Huh? Now we are headed down the rabbit hole.


People from the EU, which is what this initiative is about, are mostly white. 


Thai cleaners? They are 3rd country nationals so how they got a work permit to become a cleaner is questionable. 


There are plenty of "expats"/immigrants who also employ cleaners under the table and exploit au pairs. So give it a rest. 

The text you are quoting:

Huh? Now we are headed down the rabbit hole.


People from the EU, which is what this initiative is about, are mostly white. 


Thai cleaners? They are 3rd country nationals so how they got a work permit to become a cleaner is questionable. 


There are plenty of "expats"/immigrants who also employ cleaners under the table and exploit au pairs. So give it a rest. 


Mia M, Feb 16, 2014 @ 13:36
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 188

Not quite right Thomas. 

Anyone acquiring the Swiss nationality will get the same rights as a Swiss-born citizen including the right to vote and to be elected at the municipal, cantonal or federal level (BTW Oskar Freysinger, the UDC tenor, was Austrian).

 


Feb 15, 14 17:29

Read my post again and you will see that is exactly what I wrote. Cool


 

The text you are quoting:

Read my post again and you will see that is exactly what I wrote. Cool


 


ThomasNL, Feb 16, 2014 @ 14:06
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 189

http://www.buzzfeed.com/robinedds/the-shortest-and-most-accurate-history-of-the-world-youll-ev


 

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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 190

http://www.thelocal.ch/20140216/eu-freezes-swiss-research-and-student-exchange-funds

The text you are quoting:

http://www.thelocal.ch/20140216/eu-freezes-swiss-research-and-student-exchange-funds


Charis K, Feb 17, 2014 @ 12:04
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 191

http://www.thelocal.ch/20140216/eu-freezes-swiss-research-and-student-exchange-funds


Feb 17, 14 12:04

Switzerland pays more into the EU, than it receives. Plus more EU students came to Switzerland through Erasmus than the other way and besides Erasmus, more EU students study here, than Swiss study in the EU (in total over 28'000).

The text you are quoting:

Switzerland pays more into the EU, than it receives. Plus more EU students came to Switzerland through Erasmus than the other way and besides Erasmus, more EU students study here, than Swiss study in the EU (in total over 28'000).


Alan S, Feb 17, 2014 @ 12:34
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 192

Switzerland pays more into the EU, than it receives. Plus more EU students came to Switzerland through Erasmus than the other way and besides Erasmus, more EU students study here, than Swiss study in the EU (in total over 28'000).


Feb 17, 14 12:34

Hi Alan, do you have the source of the statistics and are the numbers relative to the size of the country?

The text you are quoting:

Hi Alan, do you have the source of the statistics and are the numbers relative to the size of the country?


rena, Feb 17, 2014 @ 12:51
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 193

Hi Alan, do you have the source of the statistics and are the numbers relative to the size of the country?


Feb 17, 14 12:51

http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/de/index/news/publikationen.html?publicationID=4403


(For the student numbers, chapter 5, if I remember correctly).

The text you are quoting:

http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/de/index/news/publikationen.html?publicationID=4403


(For the student numbers, chapter 5, if I remember correctly).


Alan S, Feb 17, 2014 @ 13:13
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 194

the Economist's view:


Their economy is far more dependent on trade with the EU than vice versa; their world-leading companies rely on skilled foreign workers; and proportionately more Swiss live in the EU than the other way around.


http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21596567-referendum-europes-freedom-movement-will-have-big-consequences-switzerlands-crossbow

The text you are quoting:

the Economist's view:


Their economy is far more dependent on trade with the EU than vice versa; their world-leading companies rely on skilled foreign workers; and proportionately more Swiss live in the EU than the other way around.


http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21596567-referendum-europes-freedom-movement-will-have-big-consequences-switzerlands-crossbow


Daniela B, Feb 17, 2014 @ 14:12
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 195

% of Immigrant populations in Europe.


(I think the Swiss have a valid reason to want to slow it down!)



The text you are quoting:

% of Immigrant populations in Europe.


(I think the Swiss have a valid reason to want to slow it down!)


Charlie, Feb 17, 2014 @ 14:15
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 196

% of Immigrant populations in Europe.

(I think the Swiss have a valid reason to want to slow it down!)


Feb 17, 14 14:15

Was that the Ticino who published that stats? Tongue Out

The text you are quoting:

Was that the Ticino who published that stats? Tongue Out


rena, Feb 17, 2014 @ 15:49
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 197

The head of the Swiss Socialist party, Christian Levrat, told the SonntagsZeitung weekly he wanted a new popular vote in the country on the future of the bilateral deals with the EU.
   
He said that voters had assumed the proposal would not jeopardize existing agreements.
   
"If that is not the case, we have a new situation that justifies a vote," he said.


http://www.thelocal.ch/20140216/swiss-support-other-deals-with-eu-poll

The text you are quoting:

The head of the Swiss Socialist party, Christian Levrat, told the SonntagsZeitung weekly he wanted a new popular vote in the country on the future of the bilateral deals with the EU.
   
He said that voters had assumed the proposal would not jeopardize existing agreements.
   
"If that is not the case, we have a new situation that justifies a vote," he said.


http://www.thelocal.ch/20140216/swiss-support-other-deals-with-eu-poll


Arun K V, Feb 17, 2014 @ 17:11
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 198

The head of the Swiss Socialist party, Christian Levrat, told the SonntagsZeitung weekly he wanted a new popular vote in the country on the future of the bilateral deals with the EU.
   
He said that voters had assumed the proposal would not jeopardize existing agreements.
   
"If that is not the case, we have a new situation that justifies a vote," he said.

http://www.thelocal.ch/20140216/swiss-support-other-deals-with-eu-poll


Feb 17, 14 17:11

Thanks Arun for posting that - I read it, too.


"Sorry, we didn't know what we voted for. UDC didn't tell us. Can we do a new referendum please?"


Hello? Nice try...Yell

The text you are quoting:

Thanks Arun for posting that - I read it, too.


"Sorry, we didn't know what we voted for. UDC didn't tell us. Can we do a new referendum please?"


Hello? Nice try...Yell


rena, Feb 17, 2014 @ 17:14
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 199

% of Immigrant populations in Europe.

(I think the Swiss have a valid reason to want to slow it down!)


Feb 17, 14 14:15

Thanks Charlie: What I don't understand though is why Geneva, Zurich, Basel Stadt and Zug did not vote for the referendum.


I regularly go to this places as I have clients there and I would not be surprised if they would have an issue. Still trying to figure out what the problems in Uri and Appenzell are.


Never seen any company there for new business. Maybe these are hot business hubs and I miss some great opportunities?Surprised


OK for Ticino as they are having trouble there and even politicians in  Bern knew that they could have a heavy impact on the vote.

The text you are quoting:

Thanks Charlie: What I don't understand though is why Geneva, Zurich, Basel Stadt and Zug did not vote for the referendum.


I regularly go to this places as I have clients there and I would not be surprised if they would have an issue. Still trying to figure out what the problems in Uri and Appenzell are.


Never seen any company there for new business. Maybe these are hot business hubs and I miss some great opportunities?Surprised


OK for Ticino as they are having trouble there and even politicians in  Bern knew that they could have a heavy impact on the vote.


rena, Feb 17, 2014 @ 17:31
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 200

@Rena: You are welcome. Smile


This Guardian article explores multiple viewpoints and could make sense on the opinion-divide within CH. It's certainly more EU-centric & has a typical Anglophone-class-hangover that people on this side of the channel may disagree with...


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/14/switzerland-implications-referendum-curbs-immigration

The text you are quoting:

@Rena: You are welcome. Smile


This Guardian article explores multiple viewpoints and could make sense on the opinion-divide within CH. It's certainly more EU-centric & has a typical Anglophone-class-hangover that people on this side of the channel may disagree with...


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/14/switzerland-implications-referendum-curbs-immigration


Arun K V, Feb 17, 2014 @ 17:48
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 201

@Rena: You are welcome. Smile

This Guardian article explores multiple viewpoints and could make sense on the opinion-divide within CH. It's certainly more EU-centric & has a typical Anglophone-class-hangover that people on this side of the channel may disagree with...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/14/switzerland-implications-referendum-curbs-immigration


Feb 17, 14 17:48

"There has long been a latent Germanophobia in Switzerland," said Daniel Binswanger, editor of the political weekly Das Magazin. "We Swiss are polite and introvert, and the Germans are arrogant and loud, that's the cliche. Now a lot of Swiss people have German bosses, and it irritates them."


Again: not sure how many German bosses there are in the rural areas of Switzerland but they might have a hard time to even get a job there. 


I try to keep the rules when seeing my Swiss clients. Otherwise I would not sell anything. And the German Senior Managers I meet in the Swiss German part keep telling me how they try to integrate and not to confirm the "bad image" of the loud and arrogant German.


But of course - maybe I also missbehave sometimes and cultural differences are not to underestimate.

The text you are quoting:

"There has long been a latent Germanophobia in Switzerland," said Daniel Binswanger, editor of the political weekly Das Magazin. "We Swiss are polite and introvert, and the Germans are arrogant and loud, that's the cliche. Now a lot of Swiss people have German bosses, and it irritates them."


Again: not sure how many German bosses there are in the rural areas of Switzerland but they might have a hard time to even get a job there. 


I try to keep the rules when seeing my Swiss clients. Otherwise I would not sell anything. And the German Senior Managers I meet in the Swiss German part keep telling me how they try to integrate and not to confirm the "bad image" of the loud and arrogant German.


But of course - maybe I also missbehave sometimes and cultural differences are not to underestimate.


rena, Feb 17, 2014 @ 17:56
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 202

http://open.salon.com/blog/martonr/2014/02/13/switzerlands_referendum_the_spoils


Here's my little bit on it....


This issue is more complex than xenophobia, and it's not really about kicking people out, and it is not over yet. The way things go these days, as we all know, there will be jab jab jab jab, or gab gab gab gab... The EU just cut CH out of the Erasmus+ study/research program, CH for its part is not allowing the Croats (who became EU members on July 1, 2013) to partake in the country's employment manna.


There will be some back and forth, and maybe the Swiss economy will be under some pressure fo0r a while.... but that may not be a bad idea.*** Then there will be talks about talks, the UDC/SVP will keep on posturing, the EU as well (they don't want EU citizens to get a taste of direct democracy), the anti-initiative people will be I-told-you-so-ing, then, because the Swiss are great at consensus, everyone will sit down to talks, which will become increasingly esoteric, and 90% of people will stop reading aout them, since iPhones will be a lot cheaper and some young and twitty VIP will do something outrageous with the eggs in his fridge or her butt on stage.


And the journalists who work everyday in their dying profession will keep on looking for more exciting stories than a bunch of EU and CH bureaucrats grinding on, wrapped up in lightyears of red tape, and so the implementation of the initiative will happen in such a way as to comply with Talleyrand's famous quote: plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.


 


But I might be wrong...


 


*** I lived in Munich for years, and the presence of too many rich people and high-earners drove up rents, drove out normal families, like those who ran the entire infrastructure, from cops to cashiers, .... so when a few big companies moved away, rents declined, office space was available at payable rates, etc.... (nowadays the rich are back, alas, and the city's rents are once again skyrocketting)

The text you are quoting:

http://open.salon.com/blog/martonr/2014/02/13/switzerlands_referendum_the_spoils


Here's my little bit on it....


This issue is more complex than xenophobia, and it's not really about kicking people out, and it is not over yet. The way things go these days, as we all know, there will be jab jab jab jab, or gab gab gab gab... The EU just cut CH out of the Erasmus+ study/research program, CH for its part is not allowing the Croats (who became EU members on July 1, 2013) to partake in the country's employment manna.


There will be some back and forth, and maybe the Swiss economy will be under some pressure fo0r a while.... but that may not be a bad idea.*** Then there will be talks about talks, the UDC/SVP will keep on posturing, the EU as well (they don't want EU citizens to get a taste of direct democracy), the anti-initiative people will be I-told-you-so-ing, then, because the Swiss are great at consensus, everyone will sit down to talks, which will become increasingly esoteric, and 90% of people will stop reading aout them, since iPhones will be a lot cheaper and some young and twitty VIP will do something outrageous with the eggs in his fridge or her butt on stage.


And the journalists who work everyday in their dying profession will keep on looking for more exciting stories than a bunch of EU and CH bureaucrats grinding on, wrapped up in lightyears of red tape, and so the implementation of the initiative will happen in such a way as to comply with Talleyrand's famous quote: plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.


 


But I might be wrong...


 


*** I lived in Munich for years, and the presence of too many rich people and high-earners drove up rents, drove out normal families, like those who ran the entire infrastructure, from cops to cashiers, .... so when a few big companies moved away, rents declined, office space was available at payable rates, etc.... (nowadays the rich are back, alas, and the city's rents are once again skyrocketting)


Marton R, Feb 17, 2014 @ 18:02
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 203

http://open.salon.com/blog/martonr/2014/02/13/switzerlands_referendum_the_spoils

Here's my little bit on it....

This issue is more complex than xenophobia, and it's not really about kicking people out, and it is not over yet. The way things go these days, as we all know, there will be jab jab jab jab, or gab gab gab gab... The EU just cut CH out of the Erasmus+ study/research program, CH for its part is not allowing the Croats (who became EU members on July 1, 2013) to partake in the country's employment manna.

There will be some back and forth, and maybe the Swiss economy will be under some pressure fo0r a while.... but that may not be a bad idea.*** Then there will be talks about talks, the UDC/SVP will keep on posturing, the EU as well (they don't want EU citizens to get a taste of direct democracy), the anti-initiative people will be I-told-you-so-ing, then, because the Swiss are great at consensus, everyone will sit down to talks, which will become increasingly esoteric, and 90% of people will stop reading aout them, since iPhones will be a lot cheaper and some young and twitty VIP will do something outrageous with the eggs in his fridge or her butt on stage.

And the journalists who work everyday in their dying profession will keep on looking for more exciting stories than a bunch of EU and CH bureaucrats grinding on, wrapped up in lightyears of red tape, and so the implementation of the initiative will happen in such a way as to comply with Talleyrand's famous quote: plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

 

But I might be wrong...

 

*** I lived in Munich for years, and the presence of too many rich people and high-earners drove up rents, drove out normal families, like those who ran the entire infrastructure, from cops to cashiers, .... so when a few big companies moved away, rents declined, office space was available at payable rates, etc.... (nowadays the rich are back, alas, and the city's rents are once again skyrocketting)


Feb 17, 14 18:02

When I recently talked to a French, an Italian and a Chinese lady who work for international companies in Munich they all said:


It's a closed society. So hard to get integrated. Not so much difference in the "big canton"

The text you are quoting:

When I recently talked to a French, an Italian and a Chinese lady who work for international companies in Munich they all said:


It's a closed society. So hard to get integrated. Not so much difference in the "big canton"


rena, Feb 17, 2014 @ 18:25
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 204

"There has long been a latent Germanophobia in Switzerland," said Daniel Binswanger, editor of the political weekly Das Magazin. "We Swiss are polite and introvert, and the Germans are arrogant and loud, that's the cliche. Now a lot of Swiss people have German bosses, and it irritates them."

Again: not sure how many German bosses there are in the rural areas of Switzerland but they might have a hard time to even get a job there. 

I try to keep the rules when seeing my Swiss clients. Otherwise I would not sell anything. And the German Senior Managers I meet in the Swiss German part keep telling me how they try to integrate and not to confirm the "bad image" of the loud and arrogant German.

But of course - maybe I also missbehave sometimes and cultural differences are not to underestimate.


Feb 17, 14 17:56

That's just one part of it. There's also the aspect of clever marketing tactics, which urban populations are generally accustomed to. Imagine this picture: in a large family in some European country, the main breadwinner loses his job/business. They sell their cattle, load up the minivan and move to...Switzerland.


Guess if there's a loophole to direct democracy, it couldn't be as explicitly before us.


Even the party that proposed the referendum, the Swiss People's party (SVP), can be evasive when asked what they mean by "mass immigration". Over a coffee at Liestal's Hotel Engel, regional president Oskar Stürmer mentioned "Poles who work in construction" but couldn't name a business in the area where any were prevalent.


Most of his arguments use the future tense: the referendum was above all, he said, about "people who could come to settle here"


Perhaps the most clever aspect of the SVP's strategy was that they rarely specified what kind of immigration they were talking about. "They won the vote when they were allowed to use the term 'mass immigration' in the referendum text," said George Sheldon, a New York-born academic at Basel University. "Who could possibly be for 'mass' anything?"

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That's just one part of it. There's also the aspect of clever marketing tactics, which urban populations are generally accustomed to. Imagine this picture: in a large family in some European country, the main breadwinner loses his job/business. They sell their cattle, load up the minivan and move to...Switzerland.


Guess if there's a loophole to direct democracy, it couldn't be as explicitly before us.


Even the party that proposed the referendum, the Swiss People's party (SVP), can be evasive when asked what they mean by "mass immigration". Over a coffee at Liestal's Hotel Engel, regional president Oskar Stürmer mentioned "Poles who work in construction" but couldn't name a business in the area where any were prevalent.


Most of his arguments use the future tense: the referendum was above all, he said, about "people who could come to settle here"


Perhaps the most clever aspect of the SVP's strategy was that they rarely specified what kind of immigration they were talking about. "They won the vote when they were allowed to use the term 'mass immigration' in the referendum text," said George Sheldon, a New York-born academic at Basel University. "Who could possibly be for 'mass' anything?"


Arun K V, Feb 17, 2014 @ 18:29
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 205

I agree: I you would have a direct democracy in other countries the results would be quite similar.

That are the consequences according to the Economist Intelligence Unit(www.eiu.com)

An imposition of limits on immigrants from the EU would invalidate not only the accord on free movement of people, but also Switzerland's other bilateral agreements with the EU (concerning technical barriers of trade, public procurement, agriculture, research, air traffic and transport).

The EU has confirmed that this wholesale invalidation of treaties would be the likely turn of events. It would represent an economic shock with unpredictable but undoubtedly large negative consequences. Talks on the future of bilateral relations resumed in 2013 and the treaties are to be renegotiated in 2014.


Feb 10, 14 09:17

Does anyone know if the Schengen Visa System come under a bilateral agreement of the Switzerland and EU??  Will it be effected by this vote??

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Does anyone know if the Schengen Visa System come under a bilateral agreement of the Switzerland and EU??  Will it be effected by this vote??


Noreen Mahmood, Feb 17, 2014 @ 18:52
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Post 206

I think it is really interesting that this debate has centred around competition for wages and housing. Does no-one care about the moral and social implications of the idea that we can just close our doors and ignore the changing world?


I moved to Switzerland because there is so much to like about the Swiss culture, environment and way of life. So, of course, I would like to integrate into that society and help to preserve it.


At the same time, we live on a continent that has been ravaged by nationalistic wars for hundreds (if not thousands) of years. Through the social and economic integration of the EU, we had what appeared to be an effective means of constraining nationalistic sentiment and dealing with issues that were too big for one country to solve. Whether it happens in the UK, France, the Netherlands or Switzerland, I am disappointed to see people blame the 'outsider' for problems because they are unable or unwilling to come up with effective solutions. If the 20th century taught us anything, it should be that when Europe worked together it was a lot better off than when it let nationalistic forces drive society.


Winning these ‘cheap shots’ against foreigners will help a few political careers, but it will not help Switzerland or Europe economically and it certainly will not foster the kind of social integration that has brought 60 years of peace.

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I think it is really interesting that this debate has centred around competition for wages and housing. Does no-one care about the moral and social implications of the idea that we can just close our doors and ignore the changing world?


I moved to Switzerland because there is so much to like about the Swiss culture, environment and way of life. So, of course, I would like to integrate into that society and help to preserve it.


At the same time, we live on a continent that has been ravaged by nationalistic wars for hundreds (if not thousands) of years. Through the social and economic integration of the EU, we had what appeared to be an effective means of constraining nationalistic sentiment and dealing with issues that were too big for one country to solve. Whether it happens in the UK, France, the Netherlands or Switzerland, I am disappointed to see people blame the 'outsider' for problems because they are unable or unwilling to come up with effective solutions. If the 20th century taught us anything, it should be that when Europe worked together it was a lot better off than when it let nationalistic forces drive society.


Winning these ‘cheap shots’ against foreigners will help a few political careers, but it will not help Switzerland or Europe economically and it certainly will not foster the kind of social integration that has brought 60 years of peace.


Alex M, Feb 17, 2014 @ 19:11
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 207

"60 years of pece"?  For whom and where?

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"60 years of pece"?  For whom and where?


Ritchie, Feb 17, 2014 @ 19:21
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Post 208

Wait... These guys have an immigrant background!!!Surprised


Feb 10, 14 10:51

And what is the point of your remark? Why is the results of the Swiss vote to LIMIT massive immigration being turned into an attack on the Swiss people's right to want to improve conditions in their very own country?? Why are so many people using the results of this vote to label the Swiss as racists?? I would think that if this country was SO racists that there would not have been so many of us foreigners (yes, US...including me) living here! Enough already with these ridiculous comparisons! Be proud to be living, working, thriving in this amazing country and how about supporting the Swiss in trying to preserve THEIR country and ensure that this country remains a safe haven for us all! 

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And what is the point of your remark? Why is the results of the Swiss vote to LIMIT massive immigration being turned into an attack on the Swiss people's right to want to improve conditions in their very own country?? Why are so many people using the results of this vote to label the Swiss as racists?? I would think that if this country was SO racists that there would not have been so many of us foreigners (yes, US...including me) living here! Enough already with these ridiculous comparisons! Be proud to be living, working, thriving in this amazing country and how about supporting the Swiss in trying to preserve THEIR country and ensure that this country remains a safe haven for us all! 


CarnivalGirl, Feb 17, 2014 @ 19:19
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Re: Swiss agree to curb immigration and rethink EU deal
Post 209

Yes, Munich has a different quality, but that is not really relevant to the discussion at hand right now, nor does it have anything to do with rents, or did I miss something? My PS was a chatty aside about the ridiculous rents one finds in certain cities, and that if high earners, HWIs nd UHWIs and I guess RFUHWIs go elesewhere, rents come down and the city goes back to normal again.


 


Chatty aside number 2. I work with companies in Munich. They are loyal to a fault, they pay their bills on time, they are generous and open. My expoerience in Geneva is quite different on that score, esp. in some of those oh-so-humanitarian humanitarian orgs. But people are nicer and more open in the street. Tis true.


 


But irrelvant.

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Yes, Munich has a different quality, but that is not really relevant to the discussion at hand right now, nor does it have anything to do with rents, or did I miss something? My PS was a chatty aside about the ridiculous rents one finds in certain cities, and that if high earners, HWIs nd UHWIs and I guess RFUHWIs go elesewhere, rents come down and the city goes back to normal again.


 


Chatty aside number 2. I work with companies in Munich. They are loyal to a fault, they pay their bills on time, they are generous and open. My expoerience in Geneva is quite different on that score, esp. in some of those oh-so-humanitarian humanitarian orgs. But people are nicer and more open in the street. Tis true.


 


But irrelvant.


Marton R, Feb 17, 2014 @ 20:05