The minimum wage in Swizerland is so much higher than in Portugal... it is 450€ for the Portuguese!

Yes but cost of living in Switzerland is very high. So this comparison is not right.

You could, and should, report him to Admin.

If he is insulting you via the glocals site, it is your duty to report  him to Admin.  He could insult others

R.

Richi, take penny with a very big spoon of salt , she is a very bad troll (but extremely funny).

the belief in Switzerland is if they bring in a minimum wage it will actually lower wages, so there anti the idea.  Ie if employers have a set minimum this could be far lower than what they would have paid without the guide lines.

As for ads posted on this web site on low salarys, so what?  if thats all a person/company can pay perhaps someone on here appriciates it.  Like with any job, if the salary is not with in your acceptable range dont bother going for it

Thanks muchly, but what’s a humourless biddy to do?

As weird as it may sound there is actually no minimum wage in Switzerland.

Someone can offer you 1000CHF per month and that is completely legal. Of course you are free to politely decline such salary.

That is the beauty of a free market.

Sometimes people abuse the system and as a result, there is minimum wage for "travailleurs de l'economie domestique" (domestic helpers) which is somewhere around 20CHF per hour.

I believe some unions have negociated minimum wages in certain sectors but I don't know the details about that.

My personal opinion is that if two conselting adults agree on a transaction that is mutually beneficial then there is nothing wrong with it. On the other hand, if someone is taking advantage of a person in need a strong hammer should come down on then.

It won't if it's banned by Admin. 

In the perfect world you would be right. As it`s not, your stupidity amazes me. You heard of modern slavery? Do you follow any news or read papers?

i am sure in 3rd world countries people agres to work against just the food. Of course you are free to politely decline such offer! But consequence is death from hunger.

Maybe some of you consdier me racist but i have noticed something especially people who coming from 3rd world countries. why they can't leave their ideas and their thinking back to their countries where they are coming from. 

Thomas,

This is not modern slavery.

Paying a low wage, as long as both parties agree on it, and both parties are free to end the contract anytime they want, is just a free market...You can say that system is un-just and that it's easy abused and that it leads to bad cases, but it's free market...

The proposal to pay every Swiss resident 2500 from public funds will cost those who are working. You don't get money for nothing unless someone else pays.  It'll be the tax payers who pay.  Ie those with jobs.

If it"s a normal company that keeps in mind the cost of living here, then yes. Im talking about those that dont as probably what is meant by the OP.

As an example you can take the construction industry which hired Polish workers that paid them just a bit more to make it interesting for them to come, but impossible to build a life over here. It ruins the Swiss construction companies. Now it's not allowed anymore so they figured out a new construction to hire Dutch companies which have Polish employees. As it"s a 3rd party they did not have to take responsibility. Also this to my knowledge, is since only recent development, not possible anymore. But ofcourse this applies to many more sorts of employement such as child care, cleaning etc.

I recall reading an article about 2 years ago, that there is a large group of people in Geneva living below poverty level. Specially considering the crisis in Spain, Portugal etc. I can imagine a lot of deals are being made that are not acceptable.

Just think about it that we are sitting here nice and warm, but that there is quite a few people out there that are not, but simply chose to survive and there are enough people out here willing to take advantage of that.

its a crazy idea!!!

Based on what you say above then, we should have closed Easyjet before it kicked off.

Why did we let some one come in, undercut the big dogs and put them out of or make business more competative for them?  Why do the discos and bars in GVA or Swiss for that matter charge crazy prices for drinks?  Because people pay it!  If people earn less then eventually other prices have to come down.

Also based on what you say above, Im assuming you never buy anything on line from for example amazon.co.uk rather than pay 2 quid for a CD/book, you want to keep the Swiss FNAC in financial stability and happy to part with 30 chf?

I agree its bad news if your one of the people who are having the jobs and salarys cut due to competition, equally I disagree with paying through the nose for everything here.

Peaky, just one of your so intelligent posts. Shops have to compete with online stores. That just the modern time. However if you order at Amazon you still get a nice tax bonus when your products arrive here. Easyjet is just a normal company that offers less legspace, less service and you board the plane as cattle. Some hate it and will never use it and others dont mind because of the better prices. Its just healthy competition. The people at Easyjet get paid a normal wage that allows them to have a normal life. They dont hire desperate people and pay them 500 euro, just because they are in dire need and Easyjet just loves to take advantage of that.

The point of the post of the OP is, as far as I understood:

Private persons offer jobs at very low wages, which makes it very hard to life off.

Some of the responses on here, such as Nir`s, state that its a healthy way that open market works. However as soon as people starting to get exploited, I think we need to realize it isnt always as perfect as it seems.

unfortunately until now there has been no minimum wage for most sectors and you will be surprised that some people make less than 3000 chf to work full time and they are graduates esp start ups are notorious for this.

The problem is that so many employers esp start ups take advantage of this. I know of lots of people who joined a company when it was a start up and they agreed to a low salary on conditions that they will get a better pay when the company is more stable. after that they are stuck with the bad wage. I also know of people who lost jobs because the employer found someone they can pay half the wage they are paying this person. its really sad how many people mess with this system. There are too many people who would accept anything as long as they are not on unemplyoment and the employers know this.

The orginal post was a link to the worlds highest minimum wage.

Later they went on to talk of ads for jobs for low wages.  Having no idea what this ad was regarding, if the poster advertised the job as an intern/training position I suspect we would not be having this discusion.

As for being exploited.  A "polish worker" as you put it, earning just enough to make it interesting to come to Switzerland to work is hardly being exploited...its interesting for them.  They could stay in Poland or they could come here, they have choices.

Later it went on to refer to the exploited polish worker stealingjobs from the non expolited worker, because, competitiveness can only exist in big companies or if options of lower quality services are offered!

Im being exploited everytime I go to the pub here, I have a choice though, I can stay at home and not spend that money.

So if Im able to hire a couple, lets say Bangladeshi`s and I let them sew clothes, in return for some food, a roof and a little bit of pocketmoney for them to take home. You think thats just fair. They get what they want after all right?

The reason why the Swiss goverment banned these deals that were made with companies employing these Polish workers, is just for that reason that the salaries paid were far below the market average. The Polish workers are being offered cheap accomodation and spend almost nothing here, simply cause it`s too expensive and after a few months they want to  take the money home to their family.

I dont see why I have to explain you all this, you seem to be out of touch with reality. Im signing off from this topic as I simply cant comprehend the stupidity of your argumentation and can not be assed dealing with you.

 ruffled somes feathers lol

Thomas, 

If someone is willing to work for roof + pocketmoney, it means their other options are even worse. And if you close that door to them, the most likely option is not that the hiring company will pay them more, but that the hiring company will go to another country. 

Instead of saying again and again that other arguments are stupid, understand there are 2 sides to this discussion...

I must say I'm with Thomas in this one. Yes, they have options, they can decline (can they actually?!?!) - It is exploiting somebody else's misfortune. It may LOOK like there are options (they can decline) but what would happen if they'd decline? So is that really an option? 

I have seen this a lot more in Dubai, where modern slavery really does excist, but most of the expats turn a blind eye which is disgusting. There was a very interesting article in the latest national geographic on modern slavery in the middle east. 

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2014/01/guest-workers/gorney-text?rptregcta=reg_free_np&rptregcampaign=20131016_rw_membership_r1p_intl_ot_w#

Interesting discussion. There are relevant arguments on either side.

Martin:

You're talking of a specific example where the worker is not allowed to leave the "job". That's very different than the example Thomas and me were discussing, which is a job with super-crap pay, but where the employee is free to take or leave it anytime. 

You are missing the point which I'm trying to make. You say the employee is free to leave, but is he really? If an employer knows that the employee really needs the job - he could be free to go - but what would happen if he would? There is than still a case of a kind of exploitation - since the employee can't afford to loose his job. The Dubai case is more extreme perhaps, but more or less the same. 

OK, so you're talking of a case where the worker chooses to stay at the job, although it's super crap, cos leaving it means an even worse scenario for the worker. 

So what do you think is a better solution here?

If there's a minimum wage that forces higher salaries, it might be the case that this worker will still be offered the same job, but at a higher salary. That's better for the worker. But facts show that a higher minimum salary leads some employees, who will no longer be allowed to pay so little, will outsource the job to another country. In this case the local employee is left with no job at all....

So yea, of course paying joke salaries is exploiting people. But many times the alternative is even worse...

Valeria: I like a lot your point about "There are many approaching points  in this situation I just hope when the Swiss people vote they are well inform in the advantages and disadvantages for their economy, that is just me."

There are upsides and risks about a minimum salary, it's not a black-and-white issue. The more people know about both sides, the better. 

Nir, 

To be honest with you, I would not know an alternative. That's the problem with our system as it is. It's working but nothing is perfect, there are no alternatives which are better (or at least not yet). And I agree that having a higher minimal wage will just make "simple" industries move away, and Switzerland price itself out of the market. 

Having said that, I have noticed that in other parts of Switzerland, my franc get's me a lot further than in our little corner of the country. Even in Lausanna a beer is at a better than it is here.... Geneva is just a joke when it comes to prices (but that's an all other subject and off topic).

So to conclude, I find it horrible, but I seriously would not know how it could be better here. To solve one problem, would create again a lot of problems on that. But everybody deserves a decent living.

Since this is far from being a consensual subject, and my research is actually (partially) focused on Minimum wages, let me share my 2 cents on the matter. I'll try to be as objective as possible.

The issue with the minimum wage, and analyzing its effects, is that it relates to the rest of the economy through many channels, some of them very hard to quantify. The main argument for a minimum wage (or an increase of it) is that it decreases poverty and inequality. The main argument against is that it increases firms costs, and in consequence brings down employment.

But there are other channels. In short:

- Consumption: Since (low wage) workers consume a bigger share of their income, a higher minimum wage will lead to higher demand, and so firms will hire more workers, and employment goes up.

- Education: If some workers are fired because of the minimum wage, they may go back to the education system, and be more productive in the future.

- Productivity: Some theories postulate that higher wages lead to put bigger effort and dedication into their tasks, making them more productive.

- Public Finances - This can be messy. Workers in the new minimum wage pay more taxes and receive less state subsidies. Workers who loose their job start receiving unemployment benefits.  Also, firms with lower profits pay less taxes.

- Competitivness - Higher wages lead to higher final prices, which in turn will make the exports less competitive with foreign competitors.

- Spill-over/ripple effects - In a lot of countries MW are used as the basis for most sectors' wage bargaining, so the increase in minimum wage can lead to an increase in the overall wage level of the economy. This in turn magnifies most of the channels mentioned above.

Which channel is more relevant will depend a lot in a country's specifities, and the business cycle. It's easy to see how complicated the discussion can be. But that's the way it should be, because this is an important, complex subject. I haven't been long enough in Switzerland to have an informed opinion at this point.

As far as the effect of the minimum wage in (un)employment goes, the literature empirical points towards little to no effect. For instance, the US Congressional Budget Office Report that was the basis for the recent minimum wage hike in the USA estimated a loss of around -500.000 jobs in the short run. On the other hand, they estimate 16.5 Million people would keep their jobs and have an increase in wages (with around 1million moving above the poverty treshold).

Hope this wasn't too long or complicated, and was somehow informative.

G

I also wrote to the person re his ad. He has been advertising for some time now so hopefully no one took up his 'generous' offer. I can understand a short term internship which eventually leads to a decently paid job but if one is being exploited on a long term basis then this is definitely not on.

Carlos: great post, highlights a lot of points I never thought of, thanks!

Carlos I fully support your views. Thanks for your insight.  It's really difficult having a macro economic policy discussion in parallel with micro-level, individual experiences. So I think your contribution places a useful framework for going forward with this intriguing debate.

From a historical perspective the notion of minimum wage came from industrial countries in the post war period and was instrumental in economic recovery and advancement. Clearly a good thing then. Many countries in the developing world have adopted minimum wage policies and have seen the benefits in terms of revising the country's wage earning levels and the spin offs Carlos ably describes.

Not sure to what extent the Swiss voter is aware of this. If I were Swiss my vote would be in favour of macr-economic growth stimulus.

Denise

A lot of maybes here.

Less employed people will return to education??  This seems extremely unlikelyy.

The UK was a relatiely late entrant to the minimum wage experiment but the evidence seems to be fairly positie.

The slightly confusing thing is the 'living wage' paid only by government organisations as they have unlimited spending - called tax

Those are all "potential" channels. I did not tell you which ones I believed would play a major role because I was trying to be as impartial as possible. Again, as I said, in the end it depends on a lot on the country and the state of its economy. The US minimum wage hike and the UK minimum wage introduction some years ago both seemed good policies. On the other hand, the only serious study in Portugal about minimum wage concludes that it would be a bad idea to raise it at this point due to the economic situation of the country.

So, until I learn more about the Swiss economy (which may not happen soon since my work's focus is on the European Union) I will not risk defending one position or the other.

But I'll tell you this: if my memory serves me well, the sectorial minimum wages in Switzerland have one of the lowest coverage rates in Europe. Meaning most people in the economy are not subject to any minimum wage rules. This is a serious problem, but how to fight it is not straightforward. Introducing a universal minimum wage can be a good idea, but bare in mind that the countries with highest coverage rates don't have one (the Nordic countries, Italy). They have a system where the minimum wage is negotiated sector by sector, like the Swiss system if I understand it correctly. On the other side of the coin, there are countries with universal (country wide) minimum wages with low coverage rates. 

In the end, the design of the policy might be as important as the policy itself. It can be the case that improving the current system is easier and brings better/faster results than implementing a universal minimum wage with a bad design. Again, can't say for sure if this is the case or not in Switzerland, at this point. But I agree that something must change on its minimum wage laws, to ensure most of the citizens are protected by them.

Carlos, this information is really helpful. It makes me wonder how informed the average Swiss citizen needs to be in order to vote for or against a federal wide minimum wage law? Something else to follow....

I believe a change in the employment law (that woudl include a mimimum wage law) woudl require a referendum to change the 'Code des Obligation'. Which with the Swiss Civil code, both require an almost change in their 'consitution'. Code des obligation and Swiss civil code are like a 'constitution' that mainly address citizens, employers, goverments, legal process, etc.

However, I am curious if other 'Western European' countires have 'Minimum Wage laws'? And what are the conditions? What people expect? Is their a European/EU comparison chart that is objective and useful so people can make informed decisions, because of the agreeements of freemovement. I really wonder if it is really working, For say :

United Kingdom/England/Great Britian:

Germany:

Italy:

France:

Spain:

Portugal:

Ireland:

Sweden:

Norway:

Belgium:

Luxembourg:

Denmark:

Norway:

Austria:

Poland:

Because Minimum wage is based on 'Mimimum standard to live in the country'? ?

wow a big point I foget is comparison of Wages versus 'Cost of Living Standard'

Dave if you wait till Monday I can give you some links and figures when I get back to work.

I think we can wait til then because Ireland plays against france in 30 minutes for the 6 nations rugby. So either it a celebration or not.

I am very glad to see this thread went from "You stupid, Me right" to a discussion of how difficult any choice actually is. The tradeoffs and ramifications are something most of us don't really think about.

Carlos, thanks a lot for the contribution... there really are many factors. I am actually very interested in the subject and I will be grateful for any links you can share. I would love to know if there are studies about minimum wage in emerging economies. It would be great to see if it is possible to quantify the effect that raising the minimum wage has in increasing/decreasing abuses for instance.

Enjoy the rest of the weekend everybody!