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Switzerland.... land of the free

I have had 3 bizarre experiences lately sitting in the train from Geneva to Nyon and vice versa. Beeing a big fan of Salman Rushdie, i finally laid hands on Satanic Verses. And as with most of Rushdies other books, it is of amazing beauty. 


Whilst minding my own business, and reading the book in the train I had now three people telling me I was wrong (in very harsh words in one instance) and even trying to take it off me. Trying to explain that this book is not forbidden in Switzerland, and that it is free for me to read it, I was just blundly told that they didn't care. It insulted Islam, and that's the only argument. 


Now I have seen statements, and stupid movies which I found totally unnessecary. But this book (I'm only halfway through) is not made, or as I see it, is not at all an attempt to mock or insult.


It scared me that apperently reading a book, which the other people clearly never read, can suddenly spark such reactions. And believe me, the people who made these comment didn't look like the average flag burning idiots you see on TV. I tried to explain that I appreciate AND respect religion greatly, and that freedom of religion is paramount to me, but that I in the same time, did not want to be limited by THEIR religion. They are free to do so, but so am I. The last one even made threads, should have taken a picture and should have had him reported to the police... 


I start to wonder more and more that it seems that certain people (not saying everybody) just WANT to be insulted, and will go at great lenghts to BE insulted. I am just wondering, what ever happened to mutual respect. Do I disrespect people by reading a book? Certain books would defenitely do yes (like mein kampf etc.etc. - but those where written with a political agenda) but this book, as far as I can see it - It was never meant or intended to be so. Found some interesting quotes on wikipedia on the book - which actually inspired to keep on reading (be it with a cover around it now) 


Quote:


After the Satanic Verses controversy developed, some scholars familiar with the book and the whole of Rushdie's work, like M. D. Fletcher, saw the reaction as ironic. Fletcher wrote "It is perhaps a relevant irony that some of the major expressions of hostility toward Rushdie came from those about whom and (in some sense) for whom he wrote."[5] He said the manifestations of the controversy in Britain "embodied an anger arising in part from the frustrations of the migrant experience and generally reflected failures of multicultural integration, both significant Rushdie themes. Clearly, Rushdie's interests centrally include explorations of how migration heightens one's awareness that perceptions of reality are relative and fragile, and of the nature of religious faith and revelation, not to mention the political manipulation of religion. Rushdie's own assumptions about the importance of literature parallel in the literal value accorded the written word in Islamic tradition to some degree. But Rushdie seems to have assumed that diverse communities and cultures share some degree of common moral ground on the basis of which dialogue can be pieced together, and it is perhaps for this reason that he underestimated the implacable nature of the hostility evoked by The Satanic Verses, even though a major theme of that novel is the dangerous nature of closed, absolutist belief systems."[5]


Unquote


Be safe everybody, and be happy. Please refrain from racist comments, or stupid xenophobic comments because nobody is interested. I'm aware these are just incidents, however, I would like to have a more open dialog on mutual respect. And live and let live. Freedom of religion is great, but - in my opinion, I don't want to, and shouldn't be bothered by it. Keep it in your living room people!!!

The text you are quoting:

I have had 3 bizarre experiences lately sitting in the train from Geneva to Nyon and vice versa. Beeing a big fan of Salman Rushdie, i finally laid hands on Satanic Verses. And as with most of Rushdies other books, it is of amazing beauty. 


Whilst minding my own business, and reading the book in the train I had now three people telling me I was wrong (in very harsh words in one instance) and even trying to take it off me. Trying to explain that this book is not forbidden in Switzerland, and that it is free for me to read it, I was just blundly told that they didn't care. It insulted Islam, and that's the only argument. 


Now I have seen statements, and stupid movies which I found totally unnessecary. But this book (I'm only halfway through) is not made, or as I see it, is not at all an attempt to mock or insult.


It scared me that apperently reading a book, which the other people clearly never read, can suddenly spark such reactions. And believe me, the people who made these comment didn't look like the average flag burning idiots you see on TV. I tried to explain that I appreciate AND respect religion greatly, and that freedom of religion is paramount to me, but that I in the same time, did not want to be limited by THEIR religion. They are free to do so, but so am I. The last one even made threads, should have taken a picture and should have had him reported to the police... 


I start to wonder more and more that it seems that certain people (not saying everybody) just WANT to be insulted, and will go at great lenghts to BE insulted. I am just wondering, what ever happened to mutual respect. Do I disrespect people by reading a book? Certain books would defenitely do yes (like mein kampf etc.etc. - but those where written with a political agenda) but this book, as far as I can see it - It was never meant or intended to be so. Found some interesting quotes on wikipedia on the book - which actually inspired to keep on reading (be it with a cover around it now) 


Quote:


After the Satanic Verses controversy developed, some scholars familiar with the book and the whole of Rushdie's work, like M. D. Fletcher, saw the reaction as ironic. Fletcher wrote "It is perhaps a relevant irony that some of the major expressions of hostility toward Rushdie came from those about whom and (in some sense) for whom he wrote."[5] He said the manifestations of the controversy in Britain "embodied an anger arising in part from the frustrations of the migrant experience and generally reflected failures of multicultural integration, both significant Rushdie themes. Clearly, Rushdie's interests centrally include explorations of how migration heightens one's awareness that perceptions of reality are relative and fragile, and of the nature of religious faith and revelation, not to mention the political manipulation of religion. Rushdie's own assumptions about the importance of literature parallel in the literal value accorded the written word in Islamic tradition to some degree. But Rushdie seems to have assumed that diverse communities and cultures share some degree of common moral ground on the basis of which dialogue can be pieced together, and it is perhaps for this reason that he underestimated the implacable nature of the hostility evoked by The Satanic Verses, even though a major theme of that novel is the dangerous nature of closed, absolutist belief systems."[5]


Unquote


Be safe everybody, and be happy. Please refrain from racist comments, or stupid xenophobic comments because nobody is interested. I'm aware these are just incidents, however, I would like to have a more open dialog on mutual respect. And live and let live. Freedom of religion is great, but - in my opinion, I don't want to, and shouldn't be bothered by it. Keep it in your living room people!!!


martinNov 14, 2012 @ 13:19
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Re: Switzerland.... land of the free
Post 1

My only comment would be that it makes me sad to read that you feel you need to cover the book now to read it in public. As if you had something to hide, to be ashamed of... You're the one now not being stripped of your freedom to read whatever you want. This is shameful.

The text you are quoting:

My only comment would be that it makes me sad to read that you feel you need to cover the book now to read it in public. As if you had something to hide, to be ashamed of... You're the one now not being stripped of your freedom to read whatever you want. This is shameful.


Aurelie B, Nov 14, 2012 @ 14:12
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Post 2

Seriously???? You were shocked? Rushdie has had a fatwa on him since like 89, or 90 (can't remember exactly). The reward for his head is like 3 million, or something...


No disrespect intended, but I probably would not have carried that book around publically.

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Seriously???? You were shocked? Rushdie has had a fatwa on him since like 89, or 90 (can't remember exactly). The reward for his head is like 3 million, or something...


No disrespect intended, but I probably would not have carried that book around publically.


intlrep1, Nov 14, 2012 @ 14:17
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Post 3

In my opinion, we should be free to read whatever we want.


In the context of your experince in the train I am surprised to find out that you seem to think that reading the "mein kampf" would be ofensive or disrespectful to others.


For me to have my own opinion about a book I simply need to read it. Do I deserve to be threaten or killed for reading a book?


 

The text you are quoting:

In my opinion, we should be free to read whatever we want.


In the context of your experince in the train I am surprised to find out that you seem to think that reading the "mein kampf" would be ofensive or disrespectful to others.


For me to have my own opinion about a book I simply need to read it. Do I deserve to be threaten or killed for reading a book?


 


Tulio S, Nov 14, 2012 @ 14:18
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Re: Switzerland.... land of the free
Post 4

Seriously???? You were shocked? Rushdie has had a fatwa on him since like 89, or 90 (can't remember exactly). The reward for his head is like 3 million, or something...

No disrespect intended, but I probably would not have carried that book around publically.


Nov 14, 12 14:17

No offense taken.


Why woudln't you? I wouldn't mind an open discussion with somebody about it, and if somebody would explain me WHY he/she would have been insulted - I would take it away with me and perhaps respect their opinion. But the sad fact is that most never even read it... So how can they judge? 


If I would not carry it - I feel like giving in to something I totally not agree with. It's a bit the same as stopping with traveling because of terrorist threads. The moment you do that, you give in and they have won. 


 

The text you are quoting:

No offense taken.


Why woudln't you? I wouldn't mind an open discussion with somebody about it, and if somebody would explain me WHY he/she would have been insulted - I would take it away with me and perhaps respect their opinion. But the sad fact is that most never even read it... So how can they judge? 


If I would not carry it - I feel like giving in to something I totally not agree with. It's a bit the same as stopping with traveling because of terrorist threads. The moment you do that, you give in and they have won. 


 


martin, Nov 14, 2012 @ 14:34
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Re: Switzerland.... land of the free
Post 5

It bothers me quite a bit. When we go to an Islamic country, we are obliged to obey their rules or for the smallest things(in western view), you could end up in jail.


When people from Islamic countries come to the Western world we give them a stage for expressing their believes, way of living etc. It explains why these people that bothered/threatened you today, think they have the liberty to do so.


I believe, if you go to another country, you respect their way of living(religion etc.) If yours differs so much from that of others and provokes, it is best kept indoors.

The text you are quoting:

It bothers me quite a bit. When we go to an Islamic country, we are obliged to obey their rules or for the smallest things(in western view), you could end up in jail.


When people from Islamic countries come to the Western world we give them a stage for expressing their believes, way of living etc. It explains why these people that bothered/threatened you today, think they have the liberty to do so.


I believe, if you go to another country, you respect their way of living(religion etc.) If yours differs so much from that of others and provokes, it is best kept indoors.


ThomasNL, Nov 14, 2012 @ 14:43
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Post 6

This is quite an explosive topic: just this week we were sent the following link :


http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=tCAffMSWSzY#t=28


We did not watch the whole video and I now absolutely refrain from any comment as everyone has their own opinion which often varies widely from others - that's the free world in which we Europeans live and long may it continue

The text you are quoting:

This is quite an explosive topic: just this week we were sent the following link :


http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=tCAffMSWSzY#t=28


We did not watch the whole video and I now absolutely refrain from any comment as everyone has their own opinion which often varies widely from others - that's the free world in which we Europeans live and long may it continue


sheila c, Nov 14, 2012 @ 14:46
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Post 7

I dont think this topic has anything to do with Islam or Muslims living in western countries or vise versa. I think you have gone away from the point here Thomas. This is not a discussion about being forced to cover your head or anything of the sort.


Martin, i find it a positive thing that  you should point out such topic and moreover are willing to listen and understand why these people acted the way they did.


You are right, Majority of people have not read the book or even have the first idea what it is about. You have to then understand that this is purely ignorance talking here. How can someone tell you you shouldnt read it and even go as far as threatening you on this. Absolutely wrong and totally out of order. there are hundreds or books there insulting religions,  Prophets, Scholars and idealogy.  If you read any of them openly in the wrong places, you could be found in a river. Doesnt mean to say it should be like that but sadly thats the world we live in.


I would make too much of it and me, Being a muslim, would say that you are free to read whatever you want, wherever you want. I know people who could probably help answer more questions you have as they know more on this than i do.


You shouldnt take it personally actually. If some one made you feel like you were in the wrong, then you should not feel as so. there are many ignorant people out there who live on pure fear and have been brainwashed (so, not even their fault sometimes) on topics they have no clue about it.


I leave you with this.


"Seeking knowledge is obligatory upon every Muslim (male and female)." (Hadith)


Seeking Knowledge in all forms is a Intergral part of Islam. It says alot about the people you are talking of.

The text you are quoting:

I dont think this topic has anything to do with Islam or Muslims living in western countries or vise versa. I think you have gone away from the point here Thomas. This is not a discussion about being forced to cover your head or anything of the sort.


Martin, i find it a positive thing that  you should point out such topic and moreover are willing to listen and understand why these people acted the way they did.


You are right, Majority of people have not read the book or even have the first idea what it is about. You have to then understand that this is purely ignorance talking here. How can someone tell you you shouldnt read it and even go as far as threatening you on this. Absolutely wrong and totally out of order. there are hundreds or books there insulting religions,  Prophets, Scholars and idealogy.  If you read any of them openly in the wrong places, you could be found in a river. Doesnt mean to say it should be like that but sadly thats the world we live in.


I would make too much of it and me, Being a muslim, would say that you are free to read whatever you want, wherever you want. I know people who could probably help answer more questions you have as they know more on this than i do.


You shouldnt take it personally actually. If some one made you feel like you were in the wrong, then you should not feel as so. there are many ignorant people out there who live on pure fear and have been brainwashed (so, not even their fault sometimes) on topics they have no clue about it.


I leave you with this.


"Seeking knowledge is obligatory upon every Muslim (male and female)." (Hadith)


Seeking Knowledge in all forms is a Intergral part of Islam. It says alot about the people you are talking of.


Waz H, Nov 14, 2012 @ 14:44
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Re: Switzerland.... land of the free
Post 8

This is quite an explosive topic: just this week we were sent the following link :

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=tCAffMSWSzY#t=28

We did not watch the whole video and I now absolutely refrain from any comment as everyone has their own opinion which often varies widely from others - that's the free world in which we Europeans live and long may it continue


Nov 14, 12 14:46

the only comment I would have : so what's the problem that Obama is a muslim. No problem with that. It's his right to be so. Like many other leaders - he's religious, be it a christian, muslim, sikh, or buddhist. What I would love to see around the world is that gouvernment and leaders would keep religion seperated from gouvernment. And that for a change nodoby would enforce his religion to someone else. But I will just keep on dreaming, perhaps one day.... we finally see that we are all the same..... A bit different topic - but this guy still hits the nail on the head for me!

The text you are quoting:

the only comment I would have : so what's the problem that Obama is a muslim. No problem with that. It's his right to be so. Like many other leaders - he's religious, be it a christian, muslim, sikh, or buddhist. What I would love to see around the world is that gouvernment and leaders would keep religion seperated from gouvernment. And that for a change nodoby would enforce his religion to someone else. But I will just keep on dreaming, perhaps one day.... we finally see that we are all the same..... A bit different topic - but this guy still hits the nail on the head for me!


martin, Nov 14, 2012 @ 15:06
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Re: Switzerland.... land of the free
Post 9

Agree Martin.


Religion has been so tainted over many generations by Politics, power, money, territory and tradition. 

The text you are quoting:

Agree Martin.


Religion has been so tainted over many generations by Politics, power, money, territory and tradition. 


Waz H, Nov 14, 2012 @ 15:16
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Re: Switzerland.... land of the free
Post 10

Thanks Waz - having lived for a year in the middle east I have been very interested in Islam. Having had a couple of courses "for dummies" it opened my eyes, and therefore I try to understand somebodies argument. It is sad to see that most mainstream "western" media only shows the negative sides and the problems. Though there a millions and millions of people out there who just want to get on with their life - and are extremely friendly. I wish more people who open their eyes and stop polarising. Anyway... I just wanted to share my experience without polarising, and more to scream out : "respect eachother" it could be so nice to learn from eachother, share thoughts with eachother, discuss in a normal way.... Anyway, back to the real world and back to work :-)

The text you are quoting:

Thanks Waz - having lived for a year in the middle east I have been very interested in Islam. Having had a couple of courses "for dummies" it opened my eyes, and therefore I try to understand somebodies argument. It is sad to see that most mainstream "western" media only shows the negative sides and the problems. Though there a millions and millions of people out there who just want to get on with their life - and are extremely friendly. I wish more people who open their eyes and stop polarising. Anyway... I just wanted to share my experience without polarising, and more to scream out : "respect eachother" it could be so nice to learn from eachother, share thoughts with eachother, discuss in a normal way.... Anyway, back to the real world and back to work :-)


martin, Nov 14, 2012 @ 15:51
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Re: Switzerland.... land of the free
Post 11

No offense taken.

Why woudln't you? I wouldn't mind an open discussion with somebody about it, and if somebody would explain me WHY he/she would have been insulted - I would take it away with me and perhaps respect their opinion. But the sad fact is that most never even read it... So how can they judge? 

If I would not carry it - I feel like giving in to something I totally not agree with. It's a bit the same as stopping with traveling because of terrorist threads. The moment you do that, you give in and they have won. 

 


Nov 14, 12 14:34

My opinion (nothing more) is that you invited a confrontation by openly carrying the book in front of folks it offended. While I personally have no objection to anyone, anywhere, reading whatever they want, this book invites controversy and has the potential to get you in trouble, anywhere you carry it.


The fact that you were in Switzerland is almost irrelevant to me. I don't care where you are in the world. People are people and if you punch the right button, even unknowingly, you're inviting trouble unnecessarily.


So, my comment has more to do with your personal security, as opposed to  your views on liberty. (which, by the way, I applaud). Again, no offense to anyone in the thread.


Be Safe - Peace.


KEN/// 

The text you are quoting:

My opinion (nothing more) is that you invited a confrontation by openly carrying the book in front of folks it offended. While I personally have no objection to anyone, anywhere, reading whatever they want, this book invites controversy and has the potential to get you in trouble, anywhere you carry it.


The fact that you were in Switzerland is almost irrelevant to me. I don't care where you are in the world. People are people and if you punch the right button, even unknowingly, you're inviting trouble unnecessarily.


So, my comment has more to do with your personal security, as opposed to  your views on liberty. (which, by the way, I applaud). Again, no offense to anyone in the thread.


Be Safe - Peace.


KEN/// 


intlrep1, Nov 14, 2012 @ 15:47
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Re: Switzerland.... land of the free
Post 12

Hi Martin,


You met religious zealots.  Trying to reason with this kind of thick-skulled people is a loss of time.  Do not hesitate to call the police should they aggress you again.


Keep reading on trains, and enjoy!


 

The text you are quoting:

Hi Martin,


You met religious zealots.  Trying to reason with this kind of thick-skulled people is a loss of time.  Do not hesitate to call the police should they aggress you again.


Keep reading on trains, and enjoy!


 


TheOmegaMan, Nov 14, 2012 @ 22:23
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Post 13

The whole  situation has gone beyond religion,as far as I can see.


I don't think you should see these people,so against the book,as religious.They are just wearing a badge that identifies them with a "side" (like the Catholics and Protestants in the "troubles" in Northern Ireland)


It's a group that feels threatened and has tightened itself into a tight little ball of anger as a kind of defence.


 


You are right to read the book.But it's true that,these days in the current climate,you take a risk,it is true.


You might have the same problem if you were reading some other kind of risky title - like,say,"Why we must defened ourselves from the conspiracy of international Jewry" or "The Paedophiles Joke Book".


 


Incidentally,two friends of mine(both had studied literature at uni) thought it overrated and not really that good.Maybe you should tell this to anyone else who interrupts your reading Wink

The text you are quoting:

The whole  situation has gone beyond religion,as far as I can see.


I don't think you should see these people,so against the book,as religious.They are just wearing a badge that identifies them with a "side" (like the Catholics and Protestants in the "troubles" in Northern Ireland)


It's a group that feels threatened and has tightened itself into a tight little ball of anger as a kind of defence.


 


You are right to read the book.But it's true that,these days in the current climate,you take a risk,it is true.


You might have the same problem if you were reading some other kind of risky title - like,say,"Why we must defened ourselves from the conspiracy of international Jewry" or "The Paedophiles Joke Book".


 


Incidentally,two friends of mine(both had studied literature at uni) thought it overrated and not really that good.Maybe you should tell this to anyone else who interrupts your reading Wink


buzzcocks, Nov 15, 2012 @ 10:00
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Re: Switzerland.... land of the free
Post 14

It is not clear to me whether these were Muslims who complained or people who could have been of any religion.  Either way it is wrong.


I read the book just after it came out.  Did not really enjoy it but felt it to be more an attack on politcial leaders of Islamic countries rather than on Islam.  Rushdie is after all a muslim.


Do not stop reading it. Up to you whether you remove the dust cover (you could always kid yourself that you did not want the dust cover to be damaged in transit)

The text you are quoting:

It is not clear to me whether these were Muslims who complained or people who could have been of any religion.  Either way it is wrong.


I read the book just after it came out.  Did not really enjoy it but felt it to be more an attack on politcial leaders of Islamic countries rather than on Islam.  Rushdie is after all a muslim.


Do not stop reading it. Up to you whether you remove the dust cover (you could always kid yourself that you did not want the dust cover to be damaged in transit)


Paul E, Nov 15, 2012 @ 11:13
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Re: Switzerland.... land of the free
Post 15

Who said this is a free country?????


I understand that if someone harrasses you publically, you can make a complaint. Even ask the train conductors to have a police meet you at the station, hoping to catch the offenders, if still on til you get off. Its the responsibility for CFF to provide safety, just like on a plane.

The text you are quoting:

Who said this is a free country?????


I understand that if someone harrasses you publically, you can make a complaint. Even ask the train conductors to have a police meet you at the station, hoping to catch the offenders, if still on til you get off. Its the responsibility for CFF to provide safety, just like on a plane.


Dave G, Nov 15, 2012 @ 11:31
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Re: Switzerland.... land of the free
Post 16

It is not clear to me whether these were Muslims who complained or people who could have been of any religion.  Either way it is wrong.


You should move this to the jokes thread...

The text you are quoting:

It is not clear to me whether these were Muslims who complained or people who could have been of any religion.  Either way it is wrong.


You should move this to the jokes thread...


Casuistik, Nov 15, 2012 @ 11:37
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Re: Switzerland.... land of the free
Post 17

If you take offence at every little thing and feel the need to protect and justify your faith, then that in itself is very questionable. Besides, one's god (in whichever religion), is supposed to be powerful and the protector so why reverse that role by protecting and fighting for him.......(very suspicious)

The text you are quoting:

If you take offence at every little thing and feel the need to protect and justify your faith, then that in itself is very questionable. Besides, one's god (in whichever religion), is supposed to be powerful and the protector so why reverse that role by protecting and fighting for him.......(very suspicious)


Gladys W, Nov 15, 2012 @ 13:03
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Re: Switzerland.... land of the free
Post 18

Nothing is free in Switzerland,


More money you have, the more rights you have.

The text you are quoting:

Nothing is free in Switzerland,


More money you have, the more rights you have.


Dave G, Nov 15, 2012 @ 13:19
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