I suppose I mean women who have experienced the techniques as, I suppose, if I were a guy I would not want to admit I had tried to learn them!

But it seems to be something that is making a lot of money for some people.....

I understanding MGM is making a film adaption of the book 'The Game: Penetrating the Secret Society of Pickup Artists' by Mr. Strauss, i think I will wait for the movie, certainly will be entertaining. But it certainly will be very very watered down to avoid big backlashes by the feminist community.

i have no idea what "the game" or "PUA" is, but anything that teaches the average guy to be more charming, outgoing and adventurous is fine in my book. win/win! or am i missing the point here?

That's interesting. Thanks for the info.

I don't think it's only " the feminist community" who might not like it .As I said, it sounds so naff, I am just surprised that any women would be taken in by it! I heard some of the guys going through their "training" and I just couldn't imagine how any clued- up woman would be seduced by the cheesy chat up lines.The two guys running the training seemed to be very good looking and confident - so I can imagine women being attracted to them, but the trainees just seemed to be lacking in so many areas ..... I would be surprised if they achieved their goals.

it was a bit sad really.

Am looking forward to seeing the film though.

Buzz, it will certainly be so Naff, and that is why is will be funny and the 'overly serious' will just scream blood murder.

but I just got the title from wikipedia and I dont want to spend time reading it, i will wait for the silly 'movie version'.

I have experienced a failed attempt which I saw from a mile off. The poor fellow tried to "neg" me which is the term for putting a woman down. It's one of the stages that they go through to try and make a woman vulnerable to have sex. . He said something along the lines of "I not particularly a boob man, and you've got way too much for me to handle". 

It was so funny I actually laughed and told him I wouldn't give him 3 out of 10 for that line and that he should go back and read The Game book again. He went pale and tried to laugh it off. 

The Game is used, IMO, by immature men and their targets are women with low self-esteem.  I mean, do we still live in an age where manhood is validated by the number of women they can stick their stinky pinky into?

I must admit, the men in the "training course" did seem a bit inadequate . But though the trainers seemed to have the " pinkie" goal that you refer to, the trainees seemed to just find a relationship as none of them seemed to be having any luck in even talking to women.

i should add here that the programme on BBC focused on a British version of the technique- I think the American one is a lot more focused on notches on bedposts - " pinkie power" as it were 

( but is that anything to surprise you?)

Oops- was replying to Janet Gabriel above

apparently manhood is validated by the number of women they can stick their stinky pinky into... 

Quantity is better than quality for many guys. It s really sad.

Luckly not everyone is like this...

Oh ok, haven't seen the BBC version but if, like giselina pointed out, it gave men better conversation openers, I guess it's not entirely a bad thing.  The American version is definitely all about the number of conquests

Well I agree but PUA/The Game is all about men trying to get women that they call "Victim Chicks" into bed with a structured methodology. Think of it as the PRINCE2 for getting laid.

Oh, I see. Sounds loathsome - but hasn't that always been a theme within certain male milieux? Nothing new- just someone trying to make some bucks out of it?

The only feminine equivalent I can think of is that weird woman who runs courses for women which will guarantee that they find a .......busband ( MAYBE these too lines of action - thé male and female one-show that somehow we are all regressing?Horrible thought.

I agree, some men have always just been about that. And yes there is that "Rules" woman I think that does the husband thing. Isn't it funny though? Women learning to snag a man and men learning to run away from women. 

An interesting blog on the subject

http://www.aphroditeastrology.com/2013/05/what-is-the-game-pick-up-artist.html

Goodnight!

stinky pinky!!! ahahah that was GREAT! 

Could all this be a re-hash of an activity that some women used to indulge in known as “being on the game” ?

R.

"The Game" is an actually funny book. Like "Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus", it has some truths and some BS. But it is far more entertaining to read and I am not suprised, it will be made into a movie sooner thant its female counterpart.

Don't tell me this can actually work! It is all just so... cheesy!

Instead of waiting for the movie, first see a movie called "Ghost of Girlfriends Past" starring Matthew McConaughey and Michael Douglas.

It speaks to this subject, and is hilarious!

Well... regarding your last sentence, you are probably not familiar with men talks :)

Anyway, the "technics" given in the books are mostly for men that never approached women. it is a funny fiction, and it probably helps some men getting confidence talking to women, and at least can inspire them if they have no idea at all on how it can be done.

Regarding the "workshops", well I would also be curious to have some feedback, I heard mostly about them because we make fun of the trainers videos.

Crap book written by an idiot for even more stupid guys.

When did it become so difficult just to go up to someone and talk to them?

If you need a "line" or a technique to talk to girls you're simply a looser!

Exactly the impression I got from the programme I heard.Yet it seems to be a big business.

In our so-called “developed” world there’s  universal education with wide-ranging curricula including “S E X”!, mass communication gadgetry, and and and – but there are still blokes out there who can’t start up a conversation?

What a waste of public money.

This is turning into à Man- bashing fest.So......

Let's return to the original question- anyone else experienced having the technique used on them? Or, less likely, anyone tried to use it or know someone who has? Can it REALLY work?

Tried loads of techniques, in my experience none of them work, but then again, I am old, bald and extremely hairy

Considering that girls just need to be in a bar, to have the options of sex thrown at them (quality being of questionable levels) but for a lot of guys, it will take some expertise to convince. This is not anything new. If a guy is not good looking / well dressed / obviously intelligent / rich / or pushing around a wheelbarrow for his junk then they will struggle a little, especially if they are just looking for some nookie.

As stated above, some of these guys are considered 'lacking in many areas/subpar/less attractive' etc lets say a 4 out of 10 for this example, and they need some extra skills or tricks to get the conversation going and to convince a 7/8/9 to keep talking to them and see how it goes. Sure there are some that are out there purely for some adult cuddling, but to call it sad/loser/idiotic etc is well unfair, what do you expect them to do? Girls wear make up, push up bras, underwear that holds everything in, high heels, lie about their age, etc so realistically neither are being themselves in this situation. 

I read most of the book a few years back because i was curious to see if there was anything of actual worth in there in terms of insight. Some things ring very true from the book vs real life, some things are a little bit of a stretch. I have actually met a few PUAs in the US and here, and they tend to be...well... dicks with legs. Actually that is far too nice, they are quite abnoxious as they train to lose their shame. 

The worst part of it is the initial plan to separate the girl from her friends and to say negative things to her to make her vunerable... sounds nasty.

But I would look at this way, once you clock that they are trying this, you can embaress the hell out of them! (they are usually peacocking too)

So here's an example of the type of person who would use these techniques. 

BTW, if any woman wants to get rid of a 'PUA' (Christ! It hurts even typing that!) just tell them you're 8 weeks pregnant, watch their face drain of colour as they back away, stammering about need to be somewhere else. Never fails.

OMG..This thread has a life of its own!

http://www.kidstrangelove.com/2010/08/03/nyc-pua-lairs-the-good-the-bad-and-the-terrible/

Go for it Girls.... Muahahahahahahaha

Farz... at the best of times I look like a ginger haired overweight hobbit from middle earth.... 

What do I do when I see a girl I would like to talk to in a bar???

Err.... walk up to her... engage brain... open mouth... talk ... 

If you have nothing to say for yourself, or can't hold a conversation, Then reading a book, dressing like a 80's rockstar and insulting a girl when you first meet her ain't gonna work either...

"Err.... walk up to her... engage brain... open mouth... talk"

Absolutely correct Charlie!. 

Charlie, you have the gift of the gab and I would say that a ginger haired overweight hobbit from middle earth would stand out from the crowd . If you didnt, it would be a different situation. (plus I thiink you have some suave charm to add to this)

And until girls start going up to guys as often as guys go up to girls, I find it difficult to take the judgment seriously. Going up to strangers and getting knocked back takes it toll and if you are not the most confident person in the world, then it can take one harsh knock back to make you crawl under a rock. 

I think you are oversimplifying it (and being somewaht lighthearted so i'm taking that into consideration  ), because for example, you can be knocked back before getting as much as a sentence out, in which case, that sentence has got to be pretty damn good. It's far more nuanced than just chatting to people. Because the person you walk up to will judge you within milliseconds as even the remotest of possible partners (of any kind) unless they see you coming, in which case they will have already gauged whether they are interested in you or not. (this is obviously just my opionion from experience).

I would say that the extreme end of the scale are weird, obnoxious wannabes who just cant handle loving who they are and accepting life (whether thats good or bad is upto you) but there were some things in there that you would do without thinking about it, like mimicking, making physical contact at specific moments to either put the person at ease and build a rapport or to associate that moment with you (repetition of this works...)

'Then reading a book, dressing like a 80's rockstar and insulting a girl when you first meet her ain't gonna work either...' - The unfortunate thing is that it does work often enough for them to keep motivated... 

I heard a great line from a fella in Berlin:

'You just seem so weird I had to talk to you.'

Maybe an 'only-in-Berlin' line. I don't think it was one from this book you are talking about. :)

whaddya mean? this guy can get chicks, eye patches are HAWT!

Well, Richard, one (wo)man's meat is another (wo)man's poison - with those attributes, you may not even have to open your mouth!

Lol... True too, for some!

Have you used that line many times Rich?

Quote {

Going up to strangers and getting knocked back takes it toll and if you are not the most confident person in the world, then it can take one harsh knock back to make you crawl under a rock. 

}

Then probably, working on the confidence bit is what they should focus on. Not learning techniques on how to "Neg" their next "Victim Chick" in order to get a "ZDL" (Zero Day Lay). Plus you some level of confidence to pull off these Game techniques anyway

I don't think anyone is against a few confidence boosters. But if you have the confidence to pull off the Game techniques, why not just be yourself instead of adopting this odd persona with a view to "destroying" another person for a few bedpost notches?

Sorry this was in reply to Farzam

Did he say it in German? Cause that's HOT in itself.

Yep! After I was knocked up by a PUA! Bastard never phoned me like he said he would too! 

I think the point you seem to be sticking to is the fact that you are focusing on the worst of the bunch. And in reality, the 'neg' part and others may not be such a common trait, but one that obviously sticks out. Even in the book, the author says that you will become an a-hole and it's not a sustainable way of life (unless you plan never to stick to one person)

They should work on their confidence? That is like telling a depressed person to cheer up. Easier said than done. You need to get a boost to get your confidence back up and then work on keeping it there. Unless you have been going up to guys for most of your life, it's difficult to understand the dynamics and the sheer imbalance of power in these situations (i dont mean that in a 'you wouldnt understand because you are a woman' way just that it's something you might not have thought about or noticed). You are essentially going up to someone for acceptance, and they give you a quick thumbs up or down...based on nothing but your look. Thats a tough pill to repeatably swallow.

I agree this shouldnt be the 1st,2nd or even the 10th choice for improving your 'love' life (very loose use of that word here but you get my meaning), but again, I would like to think the people on the receiving end should be able to handle these creeps, so I count them alongside the other creeps of the world, except these guys are at least trying an approach, rather than 'grab your coat love, cos you've pulled'

They gain confidence to do these moves by repetition, and it's less embarassing and ego damaging if you've tried an approach and got knocked back rather than being knocked back for your true self. Why do you think fancy dress is so popular? Because people can hide behind fake personas.

I certainly wouldnt agree with their antics, but as far as the a-hole of this world go, you can spot these guys from space, so I prefer that to the wolves in sheeps clothing a-holes.

Also why is 'tactics and tricks' any different from just being attractive and being in the position to pick and choose? One is given and then other is learnt. 

If any of you have seen Take Me Out from the UK, but would any of you ladies want to go down an elevator to a baying crowd of 30 men, at which point you introduce yourself and they then choose whether they like you or not by turning off their light. Boom 10 instant rejections. Then you speak about your life. Boom another bunch of rejection and it goes on. I couldnt imagine their being a role reversal of this show.

The gender power dynamic et al are truly fascinating topics which change with each generation.

Maybe you were just not memorable

Thank you Farzam. You present your arguments eloquently and I love a good debate, but I am of the opinion that the concept of the PUA/ The Game has it's basis in deception and manipulation of their target. And I care nothing for it.

The "successful" pickup artist or Gamer will most probably leave a string of angry or confused women in their trail. And to, me that's just bad karma.

Many men will accuse women of being fake with hair/make-up/shoes/push-up but at least all these come off at the end of the night and you see the real physical attributes.

The PUA tend to take on this odd persona that they can't shed whilst pursuing their targets and to me, that, to me, is the height of fake.

The Game/PUA, IMO, is teaching men that you can never get a woman but just being you, you have to be something/someone else, which I think is counterproductive.
Using this The Game/PUA tactic as a means to gain confidence is like leaning on a crutch with a crack in the middle. You're going to fall flat on your face if you're not careful.

Surely are other more positive ways to go about gaining confidence in who you ARE as a person (simply being conscious of your value and what you can bring to the table)
without having to pull down/victimize/objectify the other sex.

How about an NLP course?, a speakers club? Worst case scenario: Therapy??

This is my response to the examples you site:
When you go to a fancy dress party, everyone knows you're putting on a persona.
And with reference to to the Take Me Out programme, it's a show, every particpant in the game show knows the format and the rules and are ready to take on the risk for a bit of a laugh, or money, or the pure challenge. It's not representative of real life.

And as far as the "imbalance" that you refer to goes. I, personally,don't see it that way. Most men are actually frightened off by the women that have the guts to chat them up. And from speaking with male friends of mine, men do prefer to do the "pursuing" ( I really don't like that word, but it serves it's purpose here) and will go for the woman they like and not the women who likes them.
Now remember, I said "most", not all. I have be lucky enough to find someone fall for my charms in the past ;)

 And yes I agree, the gender power dynamic is a most fascinating subject!

Oh how I wish....! ;)

Oh how I wish....! ;)

If I had 5 centimes for every time I heard that! 

sorry janet, have you actually read the book? 

I was so not going to get involved in this conversation but I see there is a lot of misconception and I just can't help it.

All this method or any other will accomplish is motivate guys who are maybe a little intimidated to approach girls with more confidence and at best get their number and a date. At the said date their will have to be themselves and let their pesonality shine trough, and from then onwards it either works or it doesn't regardless of how it started. The girl makes her own mind based on what she sees and girls are particularly good at smelling bullshit. So what's wrong with that?

Hi G___.  Not completely. Got irritated after Step 4 of the Game and Rules of the Game. The table of contents was alone to get me all riled up. 

1. Select a target 2. Approach and Open 3, Demonstrate Value 4. Disarm the obstacles, 5. Isolate the Target 6. Create an emotional connection 7. Extract to a Seduction Location 8. Pump Buying Temperature 9. Make a Physical Connection 10. Blast Last-Minute Resistance and 11. Manage Expectations

When I bought the Game book, Amazon in it's infinite wisdom recommended the PUA handbook and I thought, why not? That's when I got to learn about Negs and  DHV. Still hard to read past the 2nd chapter.

I guess it will be a good idea for the ladies to read the books as armor if they need it but I still stand by my original assessment. Feel free to attack me for not completing both books, but after after a few chapters there's really only so much one can take.

It's probably the equivalent of dragging a hetero man to watch Sex and the City movies.

Altair78, maybe there is a good side to it but I've never heard of the terms "player" (i.e. of the game) or "pickup artist" being used in a positive light. But like I said in an earlier post if you have the confidence to even try the naff techniques in the books (especially the PUA Handbook) you really don't need the book. Charlie said it best earlier - Open your mouth and talk.

ok fair enough but the book is actually quite humorous and show a different side to this than just the rules laid out. Won't spoil it for anyone who hasn't read it but the end basically answers the points raised about keeping a girl (nothing to do with PUA's or the Game code, but like i said won't spoil it for those who want to read it!). 

at the end of the day i think it's more a tool for guys who don't have the natural self confidence to simply walk up to a girl and talk to her. for a lot of guys this is one of the most petrifying things in the world! Agree with all the others that there are those who are asses and take it too far to rack up notches on the bedpost for their stinky pinky, however for someone who is just shy then this offers a way to potentially try to be able to do the unthinkable - chat up a girl. 

as for sex and the city, liked the first one, and hated the second :) 

I'm actually with you on the Sex and City movies. Even I thought the second one a bit too far fetched.

I didn't get as far as the positives in the books, I admit. I guess if it helps shy guys come up with more original chat up lines then maybe there's some good to it. 

We both agree on the a-hole angle. No need to re-iterate.

As humans we have the ability to use the sword to kill either kill to save.

Great debate. Right now it's my bedtime. Goodnight!

Sorry I meant to either kill or save... 

It wasn't actually just my advice, another man gave it too but I get your point. And am all for advice in the communication skills part but as I have said in earlier these books are not all flowers and roses and there's a lot of BS and targeting/manipulation in them. If some men are mature enough to separate the wheat from the chaff, then all good to them. 

Yes the PUA book (first 2 chapters I managed to read) is awful!

Thanks for your thoughts.

Think of it this way (In terms of the balance of power with regards to socialising and sex etc between the genders)

Think about it like money. Women are born in to wealth, men have to go out on the daily grind to earn the money. And these PUA style guys are the dealer-wheelers, who may be unpleasant at times, but they will dominate the market in some way or form by continuous, unphased, consistent work ethic and tricks of the trade. It's an adaption to difficulty. 

You mention "Many men will accuse women of being fake with hair/make-up/shoes/push-up but at least all these come off at the end of the night and you see the real physical attributes."

So it is ok to completely lie to someone with regards to the most important initial factor with regards to sexual interaction (looks) for the first impression and all the way until you see this person in the morning, but lying about your personality is worse? One is physical lying and the other is verbal lying. Not saying either is better, but both are equally bad but in different ways. 

I mean just takes this weak example: http://theberry.com/2010/08/25/proving-that-makeup-really-can-make-you-look-like-a-different-person-35-photos/

I think in terms of manipulation men suck at this and women are pretty damn good, this is made possible and worse by the fact that guys fall for it. Batting of eyes, acting dumb, acting helpless, flirting to get things they want, all are things that are done which are manipulative. 

"The Game/PUA, IMO, is teaching men that you can never get a woman but just being you, you have to be something/someone else, which I think is counterproductive."

If you had finished the book (no judgement just letting you know what came at the end), you would realise the author mentions that it is a short term solution, and that if you want a proper life this isnt the way. But you have to remember a lot of these guys are trying to get with girls well above their level, so being themselves, well... it just wont get them there. Turning up to a fancy club (a girl above your level) in jeans and a hoodie (being yourself) will not get you in but turning up in a fancy suit, giving the doorman an air of arrogance, pretending to be a big wig, might just do it.

Most of the takeaways are actual things that most people do subconsciously, like touching on the shoulder to build a rapport, especially during moments of good memories or enjoyment as the association of that good feeling is then connected to you. Paying less attention to the person you like, will make them want you to pay attention to them. It sounds bad, because you specifically mention things that we all do, but dont openly admit.

With fancy dress I disagree that everyone knows you are putting on a persona, because I dont mean acting like a cop or like the person you are dressed as, but that it gives an air of anonymity/excuse for behaviour that might not be usually expressed. So people tend to be more outgoing, then are little more forward and relaxed because they feel that they can kind of hide behind the costume. Make up and personas do the same thing. It's a tool for confidence.

Following that I would say why do women wear make up/fake this that and the other? Because as you state, surely they should work on their confidence etc? Because putting chemicals of sorts on your skin from teen years for ~50 years cant be the best solution... Some women wake up early to put on some make up so their partners dont see, or will not stay over for long period due to worried about being seen without make up... It is very complicated on both sides.

If you think the whole neg thing is so bad, why do you think arrogant a-holes are so popular among women?

I have always been pretty 'in my head', so analysing every action, thought, gesticulation, look etc for mostly myself (and others) and I have tried differing styles over the years. And to be honest, at my nicest is when I had the most difficulty (less so picking up, but keeping sustained interest). As soon as I switched back to a more 'alpha male' cocky style, that issue was removed.

What do you do with that information...

And here endeth Farzan’s lesson for this morning.

A très bientôt, sans doubte.

LOL.  

Oops, fat finger again – please read « sans doute ».

Ta.

Thanks for taking the time to comment and correct yourself while adding nothing Ritchie 

I'm all for 'physical deception' in dating, making yourself look better than you might w/o makeup, sexy clothing, etc.

But from my experience it, it never seems to work when I get all dressed up: the guys just run away from me at bars and clubs! What am I doing wrong? I think I look hot, what do you think? Look at this guy, he is desperate to get away from me! *sob* Help!

From your picture you dont give much away, ie we cant see your eyes, legs , rest of you etc...

However, if one assumes you are attractive then in order to make a guy run from you in a bar you must be doing something wrong...

maybe its your opening line, "The only reason I'd kick you out of bed is to shag you on the floor" is probably not the best opening gambit.

maybe you were drunk to the point of slurring, "the r agh, only reashon Id kick you , err (hic), out fer bedd, ish to , (burp) shaggg you , (giggle) on the flshore... (sniff)!"

maybe you had loo paper hanging out of the back of your tights which no one mentioned to you....

Keep trying.... 

Charlie, I actually think it is all the gooey cookie crumbs stuck in my teeth that turn the guys off...

:(

oh and Charlie, here is my full body shot so you can see how attractive I really am. My pin-up pose. I think I'm lookin' good!

Farzam thanks for your contribution, but am actually done debating this topic. As I have said in my most recent posts, I concede that if there is some good in it for the less confident man, fair enough.

Personally, why I wear makeup, hair extensions, heels etc?. It's because I can and I like it. I love to switch up my look from time to time. It expresses my creativity, a good conversation starter, even amongst other ladies. Not just to get men to notice me.

Besides I'm probably doing a public service by not scaring poor folks on the street with my un-made-up mug. 

As to which lie is worse depends on what is important more to you. Personality is more important than looks to me. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate good looks but am at that stage in my life where just being pretty just doesn't cut it for me. And I think that I speak for most women by saying that I'd choose an "average-looking great personality man" over a "great-looking average personality man".

So if someone presents a confident demeanour that he can't back up...well it's just not going to work. Not with me anyway.

What do I make of your information about arrogant a-holes.

Well I'm tired of men saying that women like assholes. It's simply not true.
Women don't like assholes, we are probably attracted to the confidence that they may exude on the first meeting but, given time, a smart woman knows how to sort
the wheat from the chaff. Those that get burnt are those that fall too deeply without heeding warning signs. And yes, some women get smart by being burnt a couple of times, some learn from the experience of others and some prepare themselves by doing their research.

I put my hand up and say I've been a student in all three!!!

I personally would love to meet cookie monster at a bar! I didn't know he was a she, all the more reason to be happy to be picked up by her. At the very least, if things go very well on the pickup front, if the sex is boring, I can pick a few of the crumbs from out of her fur coat. 

Regarding The Game, I had someone give me this book once, in Spanish. It sat on my bookshelf for a VERY long time. Don't know why, I just thought it HAD to be full of BS somehow, call it instinct, or maybe I'm just a freak. Seems to me if you wanna meet someone worth shagging, you may as well be your self from the get go rather than applying one-liners or psychology techniques.

Anyways, after many years I did finally open it... but just the last page, and what does it say, something like, "but now I'm in a real relationship and it's no longer a game" ... yeah, I was right, not worth reading. 

You look good, but a little thin! Have some more cookies!

Jacki this may help you get over the initial hurdle....

I may have added nothing but one paragraph said it all.

Not one paragrpah and with two mistakes, but point taken. Have you tried www.twitter.com, possibly more your speed... and they let you delete/amend comments!

The argument thread is over there ------------->

Your ever so helpful guidance as to where I and my shortcomings might be more at ease have been duly recorded and taken to heart.  It might even be put into practice if my legal guardian approves.

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha !!!!!!Nice one.

Well,the programme I heard on the radio seemed to approach the subject with an open mind - but then maybe I am wrong and they had a hidden agenda.I felt as if they were trying to ask questions and find out stuff.

And,like I said,this was the British version so not so much about conquest and so on but more like you said - helping guys to be more confident.

...But still unimpressive.

I think this book leaves out the most important attributes a man can develop to succeed with the ladeez, in order of importance:

1. Be French (or just pretend to have the accent; red scarf optional)

2. Masculine yet groomed hands (if you don't have, consider a transplant... a small inconvienience considerng the great ROI). Hair on backs of hands is a plus, though not on the palms.

3. Bulge emphasis. Don't be shy, put some socks, or heck a few kittens in your underwear. When I was a teenager, and even yesterday, I put socks in my bra. It works. So you see, we can be on equal ground.

That's all we need.

Oh my gosh, THANK YOU Charlie! I will try it JUST on my bikini area and see if I have more success. Also, I will tell my wingwoman Chewcock-a about it...she doesn't seem to be able to use The Force when it comes to guys :( *that is actually me*

So I do go out in public dressed to deceive without any shame; if you're lucky, you will find me in a bar! Just follow the Wookie scent. I hope to meet all you fellas who are into the hirsute ladies. We can play all kinds of kinky games with my bandolier.

@Farzam Farahmand"If you had finished the book (no judgement just letting you know what came at the end), you would realise the author mentions that it is a short term solution, and that if you want a proper life this isnt the way. But you have to remember a lot of these guys are trying to get with girls well above their level, so being themselves, well... it just wont get them there. Turning up to a fancy club (a girl above your level) in jeans and a hoodie (being yourself) will not get you in but turning up in a fancy suit, giving the doorman an air of arrogance, pretending to be a big wig, might just do it."

Oh, and wasn't this already a movie (or part there of): Crazy Stupid Love? Great movie, btw. 

Because they’re too scatterbrained to know what their level is.

The BBC makes some quality documentaries (I loved the ones on Scientology, very enlightening), but also a lot of awful, inaccurate and misleading documentaries (notoriously about football, probably others I'm not aware of.)

I don't have time to watch the BBC documentary on this subject, but I would imagine that most of the information presented is probably 'kind-of-true-but-mostly-misunderstood', if you see what I mean. 

You've hit the nail on the head - once the novel The Game took off in popularity, it lead to a slew of people setting up websites, seminars and classes to rip desperate lonely guys off. 

In the same way that if someone was blagging their way through a lecture on Science, you might think "wow, Science is ridiculous and clearly a lie!", listening to someone blagging their way through a "PUA" (yuck) course probably sounds equally ridiculous, even though it might actually be true. 

I'm going to get a bit personal and share a story from when I was 18 and previously awful with women.

I was meeting my friends at Pickwicks for a drink. They were late. I ordered a drink while waiting, while watching a football match. There was a group of people next to me, also watching, 2 women 3 men. I said "would it be cool with you guys if I joined you until my friends arrive, so I don't feel like an alcoholic drinking alone?" They were happy to have me. I talked to the guys about football, being polite to the women but not paying attention to them. I found one of the women attractive but did my best to speak to her friend, rather than her. My friends arrived 20 minutes later, I excused myself and said they were welcome to come join Billiards across the street, and added that I might run into them after if they were still at Pickwicks. An hour later I came back, introduced them to one of my friends, chatted some more. The girl I liked seemed to be responding well, and at some point there was a clear opportunity to exchange phone numbers to do something at a later date, so I gave her my number. No reception to give me a missed call. So we went outside. Then after we had each other's numbers, I asked if, now that she had my number, she wanted me to kiss her. She was into it. Not too long after, we were going back to her place. 

I don't think anything above would be considered manipulative, dishonest, perverse, immoral or negative in any way.

Yet all of the things I described were inspired by the book we are talking about:

- Setting a time limit when you approach a group, so they don't worry you'll cling on and bother them for long.

- Winning over the friends of the person you are interested in

- Not seeming too interested in the person you want

- Leaving them; making yourself a scarce resource

- Demonstrating that you are socially viable (by introducing my friend)

- Finding a good reason to separate from the group, for privacy

There are a million creepy things that are described in the book, which I and most other reasonable men would never do. But there is also a lot of stuff in it about basic human psychology, which can be used as a rough guideline on how to act to make yourself seem attractive to someone you like - because going up to someone and saying "hello! I find you physically attractive. Would you like to go out sometime, or perhaps just have sex?" is hardly going to work, is it? 

That is a very cool thing to say to someone. 

(For the record though, as far as I remember, The Game has nothing to do with 'pick-up lines' - has any pick-up line in the history of human kind actually ever worked? Not to my knowledge?) 

Janet, if you had read The Game, you would know that NLP (Neuro Linguistic Programming?) is one of the many techniques discussed in it

And NLP is far, far creepier and more manipulative than the majority of things written in the book. 

I honestly cannot believe that anyone would ever say "The Game is for creeps! If you want to be less creepy try Neuro Linguistic Programming!!!" 

The Game is a novel, describing a journalist's experiences in discovering a world/community he previously did not know existed.

It is not a technique, it is not a step-by-step guide. The author discusses various such techniques, and concludes that most of them are creepy, immoral or turn people into "social robots" when overapplied. 

One of the main themes of the book is an emphasis on the need for continuous self-improvement.

The Table Of Contents of the book is tongue-in-cheek. They are chapters of a story, not chapters of a scientific guide. 

And finally... Sex And The City is fun, other than the excessive references/jokes regarding shoes. My ex-girlfriend didn't have to drag me to see it, I was quite pleased to watch something she was interested in. This is yet another thing that makes me question your perspective on the matter of sex and men vs. women. 

This is so true.

Sorry to have spammed this thread. I was late to the party, so to speak. If I can summarize, its this:

PUAs (awful term) are often idiots, often immoral, occasionally even rape-y ("overcoming last minute objections" - really??? What an awful perspective to have.) 

The Game is a novel, about a journalist discovering their weird world. Its not a technique. Its an introduction to many techniques. Some of these are very basic obsevations of human psychology, applied to the context of attracting people you like. Others are really creepy, including NLP among others. Anyone who lifts anything directly from the book will almost certainly come across as a weirdo at best, or a creepy rapist at worst. But there are things in the book which I certainly did not know before I read it, and I'm glad I did read it when I did.

I'm also glad I no longer have to think about these things.

I was discussing this topic yesterday with a friend and she told me that was using herself some of the techniques of "The Game" during professionnal interviews and negociations (she works as a legal). I never consideret it that way, but why not!

Thanks very much Oliver for all your very interesting input there

By the way, the programme was on BBC radio- generally more serious than TV documentaries and less " entertainment" style.But I do take your point.

Hey Mia,

"So why don't they go for women who are 'at their level'? "

Should they have to? Also we are talking straight off the bat in terms of looks. This doesnt mean they will have a super personality. A attractive face does not make a attractive person, in the same way that a less conventionally good looking person isn't 'worth' any less. So hats off to people who aim high though they will most likely fail more often. Though ow you go about it, is a different story... But really if they are getting results, it will mean they feel secure in their approach and social position (even if it is an incorrect assumption ont their part).

In my experience, inherently most people tend to seek others who they find attractive and in a social drinking/bar context 'really attractive', so in that case it would a little outlandish to be telling people, 'hey buddy, maybe you should be going for a 'lower level', and i'm fairly certain this is advice only sent in the direction of guys.

Though I would say that Ritchie is not wrong in that I think the perception of your 'level' is constantly moving target where confidence and recent events precipitate current belief in ones social standing. So I can imagine they might actual think that they are playing on their level...

Hey Janet,

Appreciate the input (that goes for all as easier to get a feel for the topic with a lot of 'data' ie different views from both sides)

"And as far as the "imbalance" that you refer to goes. I, personally,don't see it that way. Most men are actually frightened off by the women that have the guts to chat them up. And from speaking with male friends of mine, men do prefer to do the "pursuing" ( I really don't like that word, but it serves it's purpose here) and will go for the woman they like and not the women who likes them.

 I totally agree that guys are frightened off at times, but you have to understand the current social dynamic is that it is very rare for women to go up to men and hit on them from the off like guys do. Plus you may end up going to an attractive but socially inept guy. I actually like to mess with the guys in my social groups by sending over 2 of our females friends to start this exachange:

Girls: Hey, so me and girl 2 thought it might be fun to...you know... go somewhere and have a threesome.

*cue blood draining from face, sweating, anxious looking around to see if anyone is seeing what the f*** is happening right now*

Guy: Ermm...ha..well...errr, maybe let's get a drink first?! *faint*

Unless you've been in those situations at least once, it is going to catch you so off guard that you will not have any kind of response, unless you have some good banter and confidence twinned with quick thinking. 

While I was at uni, I had two girls in my room in halls. I had thought I was going for one, and then out of nowhere, becuase I had asked them to lowering the level at which they were singing along to the music (it was 3am), she turned to me and said 'You'll have to be nicer to us, if you want a threesome *cheeky smile* "

I was entirely not prepared for this. It took a lot of the power off my hands and I think thats what you meant about guys liking the chase. They do, I do. I think it's just the social norm. But I certainly would like to others opinions on that.

As Oliver nicely put in his story, my main takeaways were social insights that I hadnt though of or didnt know. How you use them and to what extent is a different matter.

Glad this thread is still alive!

I quite agree with you on that one Farzam although I don't think it is a gender thing. This "level" speech is quite revolting. It sounds like a modern and hypocritical form of castes. Why on Earth should anyone apologize for aiming at anyone as long as it is done respectfully and with the ability of taking a no?

Agreed, but just for this context its quite useful. I welcome better versions :)

Though it was also a fair question from Mia.

I tend to go for people I find attractive, it's only when I find them very attractive or they seem to be as a package an awesome person that the odd thought of...'hmm am I punching above my weight a little here' creeps in. Not that it would stop me, but it would difficult not to be sat opposite Natalie Portman and not be thinking, ermm what is going on here... and I think these guys are no longer having that internal reality check.

(I adore her for fact that she is super duper bright and seems like an awesome person as well as being...well... just yum)

Nathalie Portman seems like a great person indeed and I heard many guys find her yummy. And you could almost be mistaken for Benjamin Millepied so you might be of her taste.

Luckily there is only a number of bruises one ego can take... it works as a good limitation. 

Farzam wrote previously: 

They should work on their confidence? That is like telling a depressed person to cheer up. Easier said than done. 

Yes. This. Spot on. 

I think that is a faulty analogy.The idea of " work on" is very different from the instantaneous idea of " cheer up"

Thanks Izzie, if it got me to speaking distance of Portman, I'll take it!


Buzzcocks, I agree not exactly the same, but I would say in order to improve either is a very similar road. Depression is based on multiple factors and requires work and help. Confidence can be just as sensitive and requires work and slowly rebuilding the base. The happiness base is also very important for depressed people as you dont want to have any large crashes after you start to improve. 

( Though I was just giving an example of the flippant nature of the 'just improve your confidence' stance. The depression seemed like a close enuogh analogy to get my point across...i hope :) )

Long one but worth it. (That's what she said!) 

This is my experience of watching a PUA in action in a bar with my ex-girlfriend from a few years ago. She’d gone off the toilet and as soon as she left, some guy came over and sat between her and me while his mate accosted her and started chatting to her. We’d seen them together earlier looking at her.

This weasely little twat started chatting to me in a overly friendly way. “Hey! How’s it going? Having a good night?”

“So do you like your mate then?”, I asked not looking at him but staring straight ahead.

“What?”

“Your friend. The guy you’re acting as wingman for. Over there talking to my girlfriend. If something bad happened to him would you give a shit?”

“Hey! We’re just having a chat here. There’s no problem.”, he said putting on a hurt expression.

“Oh, I know there’s no problem. I’m just asking a question here.”

“I don’t know what you mean.”, he asked with this annoying puzzled look on his face.

“Well you do. You’re keeping me – what do you call me? An A.F.C. isn’t it? - busy here while your mate tries to get my girlfriend of one year to dump me after working his magic on her for all of five minutes! Priceless!” I said laughing.

“I really don’t know what you mean. I’m just trying to be friendly.” Again with this hurt expression on his face as though anyone could doubt his motives.

I looked at him and smiled. “Sorry, mate I’m being a prick. I’ve had a tough week. So what shall we talk about?”

I could see his friend deep in conversation with my girlfriend. Luckily he hadn’t pulled out any magic tricks yet!

He relaxed a bit. “We can talk about whatever you want.”

“I know!”, I said, “Let’s talk about my ability to see the future. That’s always interesting.”

“Really?”, he leant forward doing his best as wingman. Bless ‘im!

“Yeah, watch this.” I put my index and middle fingers up to my temples and closed my eyes for a few seconds. “Yes, I can see it! I opened my eyes and looked at him.

“In about one minute my girlfriend is going to ask your mate for his phone number. Now she’s going to ask him to write it down using the pretext that the battery on her phone is dead. Now before he gets ahead of himself, it’s not because his charm has won her over. It’s because she wants to see which hand he writes with … as that’s the wrist she’s going to fracture.”

“What?”, he spluttered.

I nodded while lighting up a cigarette. “Yeah, I swear. She was an army brat and her dad taught her all sorts of self-defence shit. She’s proficient in two now so snapping your mate’s wrist would be a piece of piss for her. The thing I need to know for you is, just how pissed he would be with you, if he found out you had prior knowledge and did f—k all to help him.”

He stood up but to be honest wasn’t much taller than I was sitting down. “What f—king planet do you think I fell off. I know you’re bullshitting me! She’s as much like Bruce Lee as I am a monkey! I’m just trying to have a friendly chat with you, that’s all and you come out with all this shit!”

I shrugged. “Okay, I’m lying. Just to let you know however she did a wrist hold on me once. I swear to you, I’d have ratted out everyone I knew to make the agony stop.” I shuddered at the thought. “And that was just a demo! I can’t imagine how bad it would be for him when he get bitch-slapped by a … oh look, my psychic powers haven’t let me down! She’s getting him to write his number down now!”

We both looked over. “Oh wow! He’s a lefty like me. I just hope it’s a clean fracture. Would be a shame if a piece of bone hit a major artery! That’d redecorate the place in no time!” I laughed again.

“Mate, I know you’re talking out of your arse!”, he said starting to look a bit worried.

“Why would I make this up? If it weren’t true I’d just go over there and pull her away. This is much more amusing!”

We could now see her rolling her shoulders like a boxer and then cracking her knuckles.

“I think he has less than a minute now. Tick-tock, tick-tock. Recovery time for him will be months!” I looked at him visibly squirming now. “Seriously, you’re going to chance that shit happening to him?” I shook my head. “He’s gonna love you! So why don’t you toddle over to him and tell him to find another target or see what happens. What’s it going to be?”, I asked nonchalantly.

“You’re f—king mental mate!”, he spat walking over to his mate as my girlfriend walked back.

The nice thing was it was actually true that she could’ve seriously injured him but would never have done anything like that. The idea for this came after someone ‘sarged’ her in a bar once before which was just plain irritating. We’d had that signal of me lighting a cigarette as a sign for her to ask him to write down his number after about a minute. But all this PUA crap was going on years ago 2006 – 2008. Why the sudden resurgence?

So, if I said shallow hypocritics. I think my point is made. ;)

"Love me for my personality, but I really need a course to show me how to pick up woman in a bar that are way more beautiful than average (ie, 7/8/9, ie above my level)." 

I don't expect people to "go for a lower level". But if you don't want to be judged by your looks then maybe you should consider not judging others by theirs. Perhaps finding love in a bar is not the best tactic for some of these people, especially based on some of the tactics that I'm reading.

Although it seems love isn't what they are looking for away. 

Wow, Rich postes a story where violence against a man is threatened, just because he has the audacity to get a woman's phone number. Would we really tolerate a story threatening violence to a woman for the same "crime"?

I tried to find the source of the story, maybe Rich can share?

Alan, I'll let you sober up before you continue posting random comments without being able to read what I wrote. Btw, if you're having trouble focusing, look at the screen on the left.

Look forward to hearing from you tomorrow.

Dors bien!

"We both looked over. “Oh wow! He’s a lefty like me. I just hope it’s a clean fracture. Would be a shame if a piece of bone hit a major artery! That’d redecorate the place in no time!” I laughed again."

So this is no threat of violence?

I'd have fekkin wallopped him then gone ape shit on his buddy,,',m, the I'd have gone...woo ops sorry treacle wrong bird....

but it the again in Irish and shit faced.....

Ops the time stamp is wrong...I'm not still awake or just in.....I'm asleep

What on earth are you talking about??? Or am I just illiterate here? I don't understand " but it the again in Irish and shit faced"

......or were you just shit faced when you wrote this?

What's to admire in that!

And then women wonder why men become bitter, jaded and can't open up. 

Maybe she should use her talents at her office instead. 

It's cliche, but cliches exist for a reason: two wrongs don't make a right. 

That's my lesson for the weekend. :P :D lol

Who is the " she" ( and later" her") referred to by penny and later by Mia? Have I missed something?

Fake pic... Fake profile?

Rich - Love ya buddy but imagine in a crazy world where they were just annoying guys wing-manning for each other but had no idea of the game or anything else similar to that. How does that story now sound? Sounds like guys being told that in T-2 mins his friends arm is going to be snapped for trying silly antics (I say silly, because their behaviour doesnt harm anyone, just annoys them).

Doesnt sound like they were really harrassing her, more over the boyfriend in this story feeling irked by the over-zealous attention of guys towards his girlfriend. What would be the result if you caught a guy staring at your girlfriend? Forward the threat of a snapped neck? Testicle removal? 

Wow. I mean. Wow. Where to start...

"I have not paid for any drinks or food for a long time" - I really hope this is your actual picture (though I assume it isnt), because you've just done a huge service to the men on glocals. If you can send us your friends pic too so we can add her to the 10-foot barge pole list.

If you can't understand why taking free things from strangers, without any interest in repaying the...let's call it generosity, then I think it's a bigger problem we should be talking about. Taking advantage of 'gullible' men, is as OK as taking advantage of 'innocent/crying/drunk' women, neither is OK. 'Gullible' men are either naively nice, smitten or completely unprepared to deal with those situations.

"...milking them all." - The fact you call it milking them, says it all. They are cash cows.

I wonder if these guys explicitly know:
- She has multiple guys on the go
- Has no intention of furthering their 'relationship' in anyway (other than more expensive gifts obviously!)

I would like to know what 'openly offer her gifts' means. This would suggest, she does nothing to garner interest (with the sole interest of getting free things off people).

"no single man has actually questioned why she is not freely available and seem quite happy to be her part time lover" - I think your friend probably doesnt mention the men who find out the whole truth and decide not to essentially a dependent on their payroll. Or how she gets into these lucrative situations. 

Why this is bad is that this gives people false expectations, because one party thinks they are showing their 'affection' (of sorts) for someone in the only way that is being allowed (be it wrong or right), and the other is going around hoovering up all these guys attention and money with literally no intention of reciprocating in any way shape or form.

This will lead to guys swinging in the other direction and not being remotely generous until they know the person is being completely sincere + that they will want them to actually reciprocate (I say want, because that is the hoop to jump through, not actually paying. Most guys will want to pay but the gesture from the girl brings down their defences). 

So what do we end up with? Nice guys becoming much more defensive, unwilling to spend any money on anyone who hasnt fully gained their trust. Is that the world you want to live in? Imagine paying for all your drinks and meals  I'll give you a second to pick yourself up from the floor from the shock of that idea.

Kudos for at least being honest...

I don't think, you can call her honest, whilst using a fake image.

Hm, I am meaning that she is using a fake image.

"Although it seems love isn't what they are looking for away. "

Agreed but I don't think they know to be honest, I think they are trying something as their old ways of just being themselves and plodding along didnt do them any favours. But I would say they probably are just after sex, at least mostly & at first.

I think you can fully judge them on their looks as they do so, but I think as they mostly at that stage are just looking for sex, it's less hypocritical for them to base their choices on looks. It is shallow, theres no denying that. But where do we draw the line on shallow? When you adjust your looks to make people find you more attractive, is that no shallow? I suppose maybe it's better to assume everyone is somewhere on the shallow scale and these guys just climb to a higher level, but do not mind the judgment for doing so. 

As long as they are not implicitly hurting anyone, I dont really mind. But I cant say that they are not inadvertantly doing damage as I dont think they will be upfront about what they want (pretending to want more in order to 'close the deal')

Farzam - right back atcha big guy!  So you don't mind being annoyed or watching your girlfriend/partner/wife being harrassed when you go out together?* Mate - I take my hat off to you for your level of tolerence! I guess it must be this Irish blood circulating around my system that made me do that.

Peace out.

*Please note: No wingmen, PUAs, peacocks, sarges or whatever the f--k you call them were injured, killed, had their necks snapped or testicles removed in the posting of this thread.

I'm with Rich on this one.  I don't mind someone trying to chat-up my wife or girlfriend (not that I have both) but it's really annoying when the "wing man" tries to be artificially chummy with you to keep you distracted.  I think that makes them fair game for a bit of winding up.

You just blew your chances of getting a free drink at any expat pub in Switzerland, suggest you stick to the French or Local bars.... Where I suspect the guys will be a bit more hands on....

What is all this stuff about men giving free drinks etc to girls/women they don't even know,anyway?

This is 2014 - or have I gone to sleep and woken up in the 1950's?

Yeah wakey wakes buzzy.... Some of us get a tad carried away with old fashioned values....

but then again I could be a grandpa, hence ....

Is that what your mummy taught you aside the prayers (ref you post on the Argument thread if I recall)? I've met some of these women never paying for anything. One even told me a man once offered to pay for her boob job. I wouldn't be so cocky about using men if I were you... You know the saying: What goes around, comes around... You might get the fish (or should I say the shark) you deserve.

I didn't want to say this before but I think the time has come to air a suspicion that the poster "Penny B" is just joking with everyone. The postings are just too lacking in any nuance  to be real -  they just seem to be too blatant, too bald,too " cut and paste"...like they are designed solely to wind people up . I don't think he/ she is serious. I suspect there is actually no point in replying to them - one might be just playing someone else's game?

Ha ha - just realised " game" - geddit?

It crossed my mind too... but then you never know. There truly are some of the kind out there...

Oh come on Buzz! It's perfectly normal behaviour to join Glocals only 3 or 4 days ago, spend all day posting crap on as many different thread as possible while pretending to be (a) a member of the opposite sex (b) someone else, while chuckling insanely to yourself in your bedsit by the glow of your computer screen. I'm sure he/she is a keeper!!! 

I think "Penny B" should serve as a salient reminder for any prospective parents out there - pay attention to your children otherwise this is what happens.

Better to be a slave to your weinie than a slave to the attention and offerings of slaves to their weinies. 

The Penny B's of the world are precisely why game books were written.  She's not a unique snowflake; there are many like her.  Read her comments above.  Read them again.  Note the sociopathy, narcisscism, and inflated sense of entitlement.  You think the average guy in a bar has any clue how to handle this kind of antisocial behavior?

Hey Penny, do you also like Hello Kitty? I am really interested in you but I'm kinda afraid that the law might come between us. I guess I'll have to wait a few years before you come of age... plus I will probably have to ask permission from your daddy to chat with you, no? By the way, did you ask their permission to use their computer? We wouldn't want glocals to be responsible for you getting grounded. 

I had no idea what i was missing. Don't we all need to have "a cute looking guy into Pokemon" in our live?

Please PM me, too!

Penny B is taking Glocals Forums to a whole new level!

No need to be so pessimistic. She (or he?) is just writing this for kicks, to wind up the forum.

My guess is that the average guy, in the very unlikely case of being confronted with Penny B in real life in a bar - would know EXACTLY how to handle this kind of behaviour. Men - at least the men i know - aren't stupid. Cheers to that!

David, 16 is legal here.  But you have to be 18 to engage in acts of prostitution (a fairly new law in CH).  Our friend Penny has discovered a workaround, it seems.

Honey... youre a depreciating asset, where as men get better looking and richer with time, the only thing that will happen to you is that gravity will take over and you will need surgery to keep things pointing the right way.

If I was Ash Ketchum or Tom Welling i may be inclined to rent you until such time as your assets start depreciating and then trade you in for a newer model.

However as you have demonstrated on these forums, you have enough flaws already to make even renting you dubious, and the price you ask of constant "gifts" is clearly overstating the value by many multiples, and as such I would not be surprised if you only find yourself with bids at a wide discount to your percieved value.

Maybe.  But the pic probably wasn't stolen from the web.

I think we can add Asperger's to the aforementioned dark triad of personality traits.

Ooooooo!!! Penny! You are back. How is missed you. Not sure what you are babble babble babbling about... but it is fascinating! Can you please explain to me again why Pokemon is so godly (feminine of course!) and the universal spirit of individuality and love??? I didn't get it. Probably my instrinsic male handicap. 

If anyone is technically minded enough to create one, here's a great idea for an app.

"Find my Troll ®".

It tracks down the IP address of the 50 year old 20 stone (280 lbs, 126KG) taxi driver posing as Penny B and flags up his real name and adresss.

Just in case anyone wanted a little tangent chuckle. The only person who has been reading this thread who 'thanked' penny B would be Kevin who...drumroll...works in finance. Come on buddy...

Match made in Goldman Sachs?

What the HELL is going on on this thread???

It has turned into a rugby scrum with knuckle dusters.

Nasty nasty nasty.

Please stop!

Why doesn't everyone just ignore the lady/bald fat middle-aged guy called Penny B?

Yeah! You tell 'em.

But let's not be giving rugby a bad name. ;) 

Hayes?

No,they never end up as nasty as this.

( and is that really what you think of me? OMG- what have I come to?)

....and who is running away?