Please post encouraging spiritual prayer items 

without trying to convince 

here is my contribution 

www.wailingwallprayer.org

Is that alright ? i hope it's ok to post places for prayer from different 

traditions without offending anyone and respecting diversity 

ofra haza  ( RIP) sings a song called "Tfila"   , not a religious prayer but says in the refrain: 

"Guard us like children

and dont leave us 

Give us light and joy for life 

let us also love"

Godspell has a simple prayer

"Day by day"

Dear lord three things i pray

"see thee more clearly

love thee more dearly

follow thee more nearly"

a universal message no ?

@star:Dr. Martin Luther King said..'the press, the platform and in many instances the pulpit do not give us objective and unbiased truth''. (Chap 1 of 'The strength to love')

So it would seem to me that it is incumbent upon both believers and non-believers to think critically, which involves asking questions and debating. With this truism in mind I'd respectfully disagree with your description of the point of view of 'passionate' agnostics and atheists as ''a destructive manipulative force in society''  :o) 

I myself am not a believer but I am a big fan of Dr. King. Here's a biblical quote I like to reflect on which he used a lot.  I suppose it's a kind of secular prayer for me.

''Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves''. Matthew 10.16

only viable if you believe in God... and all the rest of that mumbo jumbo...

Prayer is merely an excuse for those who havent the power to get up and do it yourself...

oh, charlie, have a heart

surely we are not discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin

but feeling empowered by a universal spiritual force

is that an impossibility for you ?

are you omnipotent ? ( no puns intended towards other fields of life )   

not trying to convince you charlie

just wondering 

star

p.s. 

i need to apologize about the wailing wall post

i had no idea it asks for a credit card but perhaps that is another twist on the subject

after all prayer should  not cost anything 

hi

glad to meet you on a more neutral thread manics

i did not intend to state a black and white outlook on faith ( no pun intended here towards dr Martin RIP who i admire a lot ) 

There is of course a spectrum but i have been told by very passionate 

atheists that religion is nonsense in no uncertain terms 

where is the middle way?

The quote you gave is a good advice but i am refering to connecting 

to something higher than ourselves

is that a no go for you ? if so why? 

bad experiences with organized religions or extremists ? 

which reminds me of a joke, i hope will not offend anyone

If the garden of Eden was in China we would still be there 

because Adam would have eaten the snake instead of the apple

(explaination : the biblical story of adam and eve has Adam eating an apple 

from the tree of knoweldge and thus kicked out of paradise..interesting 

theme to discuss all by itself by the way as a story , metaphor, whatever)

Thanks for your quote  

Dr. Martin Luther king as manics said 

is a fine exemple of a man of faith and vision 

what a tragic hero 

thanks for the reminder

the lighter side , ABBA singing "I have a dream"

"Something good in everything "

Star,

No disrespect intented but you're clearly as "Mad as a box of frogs!"

You've started a thread and answered yourself 11 times (from 13)...

Men are from Mars, Women from Venus and you're from Pluto...

thanks for the statistics

 guess if you cant bring roses you bring insults

motophone, are you still reading porn ? 

So what ?

She's just HUMAN 

better mad than bad 

there are those who do and then there are those who destroy 

it is not mars versus venus but love versus hate 

thanks Sister soul , you are  an angel  

Prayer works, that's proven, but why and how is another matter entirely :)

I think the 'why' can be the launchpad for many heated discussions over, say. a nice Bordeaux.

Star according to you....because I dont believe in god means im a hater or destroyer?????

Get a grip on reality, please.

One can believe in God, or one may not, but dont make unfounded assertions as to my character based on your own beliefs, you have no idea, and it makes you look fanatical.

DO -YOU- SEE-THE-LIGHT?!!??

The only fanatic and disrespectful here is you charlie .

Certainly, he is not (but I'm not saying he is!).

So pathetic !

Um, excuse me, but what is pathetic about that?  Do you have a problem with gospel music and humor?

Did I take offense at Star's coupling Dr. King's speech and Abba's song?  No, I did not... I thought perhaps it was a bit out of place, but I took it in the spirit it was offered.

You really shouldn't take offense at every comment I post.  This was not an attempt to debase Star. Perhaps you ought to check your understanding of English.

I think, Medicis, you really ought to get over whatever grudge you may  have from other threads.  Learn to debate properly and accord others the respect you wish accorded to yourself.

What I find pathetic is that you rarely, if ever, add any substance to debates. Perhaps you should stick to your supporting role of Star.  She, at least, has something to say -- whether I agree  with her or not.

Pluto was still in our solar system until recently...

To contribute something to the subject:

Without prayer I would already be dead. There were times were only my faith kept me somehow going.

So for me prayer works but I understand that not everybody is familiar with that. There was a long time were I lived without God but then I came to the point where I knew, either I make Jesus my boss or I will never get out of that sh...

And it was worth it. Life can turn 180°...

Thanks for the lovely thought...

Let me post this other gospel song and not worry whether it offends anyone...

Hahaah !

So HAPPY ! 

Now i'm waiting for private messages ...

Ignoring the negative and moving on...

This first song is often sung at African-American funerals and is almost guaranteed to make you cry... (His Eye is on the Sparrow)

The second is Bjork, of course, and I love the bell dress.

Enjoy...

Thanks Translator....(crying....)

Thank you Star for the interesting idea for this forum which of course will and has gone beyond the power of prayer.  First of all I can well believe that prayer and faith can have a calming affect on humans.  Now as to the power of prayer, one would need to define or delimit the meaning of the word power.  I believe prayer can bring people together in a positive way for example but do not believe prayer can heal disease/illnesses.  I don't know all the literature on randomised controlled trials (the gold standard for testing pharmaceuticals' efficacy) of prayer but remember reading about one a number of years back that failed miserably to show any affect of prayer on disease progression.

If I could disprove the existence of God I would be an atheist but not knowing of such proofs I am agnostic yet appreciate the deep religious feelings that people have.  People like Chris Hitchens and Richard Dawkins who disparage religion and praise to high heaven (pun intended) annoy me and I am convinced they do not know what either religion or science is despite Dawkins being a scientist.  They have simplistic views of both and Dawkins ignores the beliefs of science i.e. axioms which one just has to accept in order for the scientific theory to hold.  Neither is religion simply a set of behaviours or observances (it is to some) but rather an attempt to reflect on how humankind should relate to each other and to the world.

Chris Hedges has written a very interesting article on the Dangerous Atheism of Chris Hitchens and Sam Harris (in my view also a naive scientist with an incredible set of biases, statistical and other methodological weaknesses in his brain imaging work on believers and non-believers): http://www.alternet.org/rights/80449/

Finally, what do you call an atheist in a coffin?  Someone all dressed up and nowhere to go

From my point of view Charlie did not disrespect anyone's religion and neither did I.

Some people believe in prayer. Some do not.  There are people who pray and who do evil; others don't pray and do good as well as the opposite.

No one has to characterize anyone as a hater or evil on this site.

Thanks for your thoughts Marksist, But have to add something: I several times got healed after a prayer (and thanks to that can run marathons again).

Also people several times told me that they got better after our prayer. Like a friend who had severe back problems half of his life.

I like the prayers in Latin

Credo in unum Deum
patrem omnipotentem
factorem caeli et terrae
vibilium omnium et invisibilium
Et unum Dominum Iesum Christum
Filium Dei unigenitum
et ex Patre natum ante omnia saecula
Deum de Deo
Lumen de lumine
Deum verum de Deo vero
genitum non factum consubstantialem Patri
per quem omnia facta sunt.
Qui propter nos homines et propter nostran salutem
descendit de caelis
Et incarnatus est de Spiritu Sancto ex Maria Virgine
et home factus est
Cruxifixus etiam pro nobis sub Pontio Pilato
passus et sepultus est
et resurrexit tertia die secundum Scripturas
et ascendit in caelum, sedet ad dexteram Patris
Et iterum venturus est cum gloria
iudicare vivos et mortuos
cuius regni non erit finis
Et in Spiritum Sanctum
Dominum et vivificantem
qui ex Patre Filioque procedit
qui cum Patre et Filio
simul adoratur et conglorificatur
qui locotus est per prophetas.
Et unam, sanctam, catholicam et apostholicam Ecclesiam
Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum
Et exspecto resurrectionem mortuorum
et vitam venturi saeculi
Amen !

+

Praying is hard work....which is probably why most people don't do it. It's emotionally and spiritually draining.  But like most things, the more you put in the more you get out.   I challenge anybody reading this to pray for 5 minutes without their mind wandering off elsewhere, let alone a good hour. 

I find it facinating how this thread works

basically i feel that the way people approach the mystery of life says a lot about them 

I dont know why not believing in something is supposed to be a smart choice 

after all no one has ever seen an atom but we know its affect on the world 

I am not speaking about direct proof  but a faith in the power of positive 

focused energy in something other than self

I dont think that it is about men and women because paul coelho and many other spiritual writers are men

I dont really think that every thing you can prove in a lab means it is a fact

I am sure we all know someone who has prayed and were able to overcome 

a serious problem by focusing all that positive energy 

which is what prayer seems to be 

*when i find myself in times of trouble 

mother mary comes to me 

whispering words of wisdom 

let it be"

is a prayer too  i think 

I once asked a neurosurgeon -- who was also very learned in ancient Greek and Latin -- and a Catholic -- if he believed in miracles.

He said, yes, but that one cannot count on them. I asked him to explain and he said that he believed that we are responsible for doing everything we possibly can on our own to get well and stay well. 

In addition, he said, we cannot fathom the mind of God and understand the reasons why some survive and others don't.

I think when some people get healed and others don't, those that did not get healed might feel as if they didn't pray hard enough.

I read that book called When Bad Things Happen to Good People and I think he provides good discussion about how to think about some of these difficult issues...

What do you think?

I am happy that you and others have got better after prayer.  I wonder how many have not?  Take a look around the world and see the poverty and starvation, wars and destruction in and by the lands of believers.  I think that should be sufficient to put some doubt into some people's minds about the efficacy of prayer in solving health or other problems.  And from my biased rational evidence based western medical point of view I should point out that in evaluating the efficacy of a 'treatment' or judging something to be a cause of illness there are rigorous standards developed in the 20th century (and before - see Semelweiss: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semelweiss and others like Pasteur) by the likes of Cochrane which led to what is called the Cochrane Collaboration, devoted to EBM (Evidence Based Medicine) named in his memory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archie_Cochrane

There are limits to medicine (see Ivan Illich's Medical Nemesis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Illich#Medical_Nemesis) and I have seen the corruption therein but I'd rather be treated by conventional medicine for a whole range of illnesses than prayer.  Though I confess when I watched my brother die in multiple organ failure after a septicemia (bacterial blood infection or 'blood poisoning') following a simple ear infection, I too prayed (too no avail).

Not trying or wishing to convert you but just offering food for thought.

I read today about research conducted by a Dr. David Rosmarin of Harvard University which found that prayer or as it is called officially SI -BCT; Spiritually integrated cognitive behavioral therapy  reduces depression and anxiety significantly.

So, I just read the article (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.janxdis.2010.05.014).

For one, its origin is not Harvard, but Bowling Green State University. The random testgroup on which the 'Spiritually integrated cognitive behavioral therapy' was tested, was entirely made up from religious jews. If anything, the only thing this suggests is that it helps to tailer psychological care to the needs of the patient.

Nicely found fellow Dutchman.

------------------------------------------

Back to topic:

I guess according to Star, all who ain't jewish and practice this religion, which is high above all other religions, we all are doomed. Lucky for the Dutch we don't care much cause we found out: "in heaven they got now beer, thats why we drink it here".

Ofcourse tomorrow you will comeback not understanding how I can make such an accusation. This clearly shows I'm one of the aggressive none believers and besides that someone who finds you the most annoying (and since this thread most arrogant) person on this site.

May Adonai bless your soul love.

Spam on dear!

I'm going to revert to Dr. King again. There are those of us who demand to see the facts before we make any judgement, Dr King refers to this as post-judging. And, sadly, there are equally those of us who judge before consulting the evidence, whom Dr. King accuses of pre-judging. He then niftily segues, via a linguistic somersault, into explaining this worldview as one of 'predjudice'.

In terms of my own stance, I tire fairly rapidly of those who preach or push hatred instead of a willingness to listen to the 'other point of view'. Whether or not god exists is secondary to our taking responsibility for our own actions. Confucius said it long before Jesus of Nazareth - treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself. A simple rule made complicated by the dancing lies of mischevious people. The only prayer I would teach my children to learn is to focus, intensely, on the fact that the person before you is your own flesh and blood. Everything you need to know is lies curled up in that basic truth.

Thanks Translator, yes... I have an issue with my hearing for years, while my knees, stomach, colds etc. got better immediately.

Some friends told me they feel better after the prayer and some don't feel anything.

A matter of faith? No idea. I think it's worth continuing as there are positive results.

Food for thought very much appreciated, Marksist!

For those that have found help through spritual prayer, great, Im pleased (truely) that this has helped you, especially Rena, who it seems has experienced her own miracle.

What Im saying (Marina) ...albeit I probably expressed myself in a brash way initially, is NOT that prayer is for lazy people, but is a way to simply focus the mind and motivate it, and yourself, and since we are very unclear about how complex the human brain is, and all the perpheral issues i am of the belief that if we focus the mind hard enough we can achieve alot of things that we otherwise didnt realise we can. This has nothing to do with the existence of God or the "power of prayer" it simply has to do with the "focus of the mind".

No one here can prove to me God exists, and no one can prove he doesnt exist, however, if you take the line that (Star) that Atoms may not exist because you havent seen them, or proof of science is not a true proof of something, then by rights you should also open your mind to the possibility that God doesnt exist.

Religion and belief is a touchy subject, and I can understand why people get so emotional about it, Im not here to disrespect anyones choice of belief, or to say one god (if he/she exists) is better than another.

Lets just think about some things in context here... most people on this thread are Christian (I was baptised Catholic).... however, Christianity is one of the newer major religions in this world dating back only to the reputed birth of Jesus, (Buddism and the Muslim faith are way older)... Christianity is a shrinking faith, both in terms that the other faiths have faster growing populations, and also because people are loosing faith due to scandals in the various churches (esp the Catholic one).

In the Catholic church, there is a prayer that states you are praying to "the one true God".... Sorry, but that is disrespectful to all the Buddists, and Muslims and Hindus in the world.... to me anyway. I suspect that each religion has the same prayer, and most dont recognise the existence of another form of God or prophet apart from their own.

So since there are so many Gods and prophets in this world which one do you bet on?

Most prayers that are said in the Christian church today were written centuries ago, even during the time of the crusades when christians marched to eliminate any "non believers"...

The good from modern religion per say is that it has created a set of rules by which many humans live by that creates respect for fellow beings, however it still doesnt stop mass murder, and carnage on this planet, sadly.

The one thing that all religions have in common, (including worshippers of the Sun, and Mother Earth) is that its respective followers ALL pray to some extent or another.

Prayer, yes its a strong medium to focus the mind, and if done properly it can achieve so much, not because a God suddenly hears you, but because you have taken the time to sit and meditate enough to get your body working in synch with your very complex brain.

I can tell you stories of how I have sat and focussed my mind to heal myself, (ok muscular issues, not as dramatic as Rena's but nevertheless) or focussed my mind to have the power and momentum and vision to achieve something. Its pretty much similar to having very strong belief and praying "oh god give me the strength to...blah de blah"... except its not "prayer" , instead its "focus"....

Praying to save the children is pointless, too many kids are perishing so defacto no one is listening, the way to save kids is to do it yourself.

If prayer helps you get through difficult times then do it, if you need to believe, then believe.... nothing wrong with that at all and I applaud you whatever religion/faith you are...

...just dont force your beliefs onto me, or say that my way is wrong, because you cant prove it isnt.

I am skipping all the mean comments 

I dont see the point of saying cruel things

Yes, I admit i read this on a Jewish site but it INSPIRED my ideas

I am interested in Christianity and Islam and Buddhism as long as it is about

LOVE

and i admit think we are all work in process concerning how to love others

and for that i am deeply inspired by Martin Buber, yes, he is a JEW but that is not the POINT 

the point is MArtin Buber talks about I-thou relationships where you see

the God in the other person 

Whether it is religious jews, Moslems, Buddhists, christians if you see

the higher potential and soul of the other, whether it is human or animal 

or vegetable ( ok the last one is a joke) 

then congradulations, you made it to the higher level of humanity

I struggle and so my prayer is to be a better person

and to try to make others happy too , especially my loved ones

and that is my prayer

and it really goes beyond  religion and what label society gives ideas

I myself admit i had no idea that the link was to a credit card business

which made me laugh 

I think that prayer means to focus all that good things inside you 

so you can be a loving person and if that is the result 

Halleluja

you got what life is all about 

Anyway, that is my bit for today

I wrote a lot but i am so glad you guys could get your ideas out there

even if i dont like the ideas, you were able to express them and that is what 

this forum is all about and this thread

just sometimes i have to dock because of the flying beer  bottles in the air 

but that is alright

stirring things, getting people thinking and writing 

that is all that matters at the end of the day  

"My prayer"  by the platters

http://youtu.be/QOW3sWTfOM8

Dear Thomas 

I dont generalize so dont generalize

not all jews are alike 

and not all Dutch are alike 

The Dutch father of my kids allowed them a jewish education because 

he perhaps thinks beyond beer

dont place all the Dutch in one group

another good Dutch friend of mine is very spiritual and loves her church 

and i like to hear her insights and enjoy her ideas about life 

I did not mean for this to sound like a Jewish thread but those are my roots 

anyway i just want to correct the image of the Dutch as my kids are Dutch too 

and i cant see my boys thinking life is all about beer nor do all the Dutch think that way

Oh Lord won't you buy me a.....

shouldn't it be "SI-CBT" (not SI-BCT)?

Jus sayin'

This started out about the power of prayer but like all good threads people bring in related elements and we have jolly good time going off on tangents (as I am inclined to do).

Therefore on the subject of Islam, Judaism and Christianity I would recommend Paul Grieve’s Islam: History, Faith and Politics for the reasons given here (lifted from amazon.com) “Grieve, a London-based writer and self-styled student and traveler of the Islamic world, puts forward a riveting book on Islam that decries and then corrects the widespread ignorance about the faith and its history. He consistently jolts the reader out of preconceived notions about Islam and Muslims, particularly concerning the Palestinian conflict. Grieve's precise insights into the Muslim worlds, past and present, are astonishingly accurate. He provides the real and surprising backstory on everything from the Crusades and colonialism to Muslim immigration to Europe and women under Islam. He also provides succinct introductory information on Islam, including recommending Qur'an translations and reviewing standard prayer techniques. Of the harsh reputation Islam has received in the West, Grieve writes: "The universal message of Christianity would be similarly diminished... if the faith were to be defined only by reference to sectarian murders in Northern Ireland, the history of the Spanish Inquisition, or the sad stories of lust and greed in modern television evangelism." His book is by no means an ode of praise to Islam; he is properly critical of the marginalization of women in Muslim societies, which he argues will hold the Muslim world back. If you read only one book about Islam this year, this should be it”.

Review

"'A sympathetic and sensitive treatment of a difficult subject; exploratory as well as explanatory; well-informed, confidently narrated, and well-written with an enviable gift for sure and incisive summary. I particularly admire the way it relates Muslim tradition to Christian and Judaic tradition.' David Gardner, Middle East Correspondent, Financial Times" 

http://www.amazon.com/Brief-Guide-Islam-Religion-Politics/dp/0786718048/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1302167870&sr=1-1

hi,

Prayer brings in concentration, peace n respect 4 others in mind !

....it opens up the mind ...when in darkness !

....is it so  Charlie !! ...dnt wrry, I 2 dnt pray , unless whn stuck in deep  ...but yes respect othrs !

ooops srry God !

~arpan.

which reminds me of the saying 

"May god save us from his followers" or something like that 

by the way i too struggle with this issue or would not have brought it up

i wonder how these threads tend to go so haywire and i am a soul whose intentions are often misunderstood...

Er, what exactly is "positive energy"?   To me it sounds like a feeble expression used by people as an excuse to not have to actually think about things and explain them.........

here is Madonna for the lighter side

she is now into Kabala 

and i must admit to have some interest in that too 

but more than anything her hobby of younger men is a sort of religious 

practice many women of a certain age discover

i hope i am not offending anyone by this clip

well , i think you have proved the point 

by negative energy

i dont think everything can be explained rationally 

like love, death, life, etc etc

but i could be wrong and everything has a simple explaination varified by the labratory 

I actually think religion or spiritual belief comes from thinking about things 

not from NOT thinking but like everything in life, you can go about it in different ways

positive energy means to try to see the positive

trying to post madonna 

just like a prayer

http://youtu.be/oMCbtyBdZZ4

no spiritual "belief" comes from not actually thinking about things....  like saying stuff like " positive energy means to try to see the positive"

  A totally ridiculous statement

I learnt long ago not to argue with religous bigots, because they shelter their world view from anything that might challenge it, and literally will blank out anything that might threaten it. I fully respect that people have every right to believe what they want, even if that means  genocide, suicide bombing, child abuse etc etc   but please , please if possible keep your "beliefs" in the little narrow world where they belong:-)

i posted madonna

does not that show you that i am enlightened

i learned a long time ago not to argue with people with misconceptions ....

i have teenagers for arguments so dont have to do it online 

i meant to say preconceptions 

still waiting for the explanation of positive energy...

  maybe you could start with energy and then expound.....

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

http://youtu.be/aMA3BWhZbYc

I'm sure that there are quite a few people who will feel the springtime as positive (energy) Where does that come from? How do we explain that?  Simply the sun and all the effects that comes from that energy like trees that are blooming etc?

Certain people might feel that and others don't, so ''simply'' said is a person open to that.

Firstly, my admiration, Star. You very bravely started a debate on a highly controversial topic, which of course has generated opposed opinions and which, in my view, not only radicalises many, but also, inevitably, will remain an open, evolving discussion with no agreement or concordance in sight. I encourage you to continue to ignore those who attack you and cannot (or are unwilling to) be tolerant and conducive to a constructive debate.

With all due respect to all comments, in my opinion prayer cannot be analysed, intellectualised or made a subject matter for scientific study. In different ways I have been able to discern that spirituality exists and prayer is one of those things that you have either experienced and can value, or you have not experienced and can only speculate about or try to have an opinion about.

My perception from much of what I read on here is that many people are victims of their own ambition or their historical contexts, fouling themselves into believing that their minds, intellectual determination, personal willingness or materialistic ambitions or determination can help them achieve some sort of mastery of their own lives.

Ask those with dying or dead relatives or friends, in terminal or sever illness, with destroyed families, broken careers, shattered dreams, in deep loneliness, with an absence of hope or genuine friends if they know the meaning of suffering. Ask them if in their darkest moments, when they have felt suicidal or desperate or empty or abused or simply have experienced hating themselves, their bodies or their vices and perversions, if all of that is coming simply from their uncontrollable intellectual shortcomings or own physical or emotional inability to master their own lives. There and then, you might learn from their answers if intellect and mind and animal instinctual emotions are all there is to it, or if they received the mercy, compassion, love and affection of others who chose to spend time understanding them, supporting them, helping them out in those darkest moments. Then the meaning of love and unselfish service comes to the picture, and the source of all things good and bad and the meaning of free will and liberty to choose become sensible assessments that will never be explained through mathematical formulae, profound debating or laboratory experimentation, Then they might start discerning that there is something called spirit.

Prayer is the expression of a conscious soul, aware of the limitations and great potentials of the body, mind and emotions that the spirit commands. Prayer is a dialogue with the source of all that is greater inside of us, which inspires us to be spiritually industrious, generous and confident. It is the method that opens the connectivity channels between people to aim for a greater good by acting together. Whatever the race, geographical location, historical context, faith book, church, credo, value system, prophet, or adored semiology, prayer paves the way for that complex and long journey towards a clearer understanding of the concepts of spiritual knowledge, religious meaning, personal value and worldly wisdom.

Firstly, my admiration, Star. You very bravely started a debate on a highly controversial topic, which of course has generated opposed opinions and which, in my view, not only radicalises many, but also, inevitably, will remain an open, evolving discussion with no agreement or concordance in sight. I encourage you to continue to ignore those who attack you and cannot (or are unwilling to) be tolerant and conducive to a constructive debate.

With all due respect to all comments, in my opinion prayer cannot be analysed, intellectualised or made a subject matter for scientific study. In different ways I have been able to discern that spirituality exists and prayer is one of those things that you have either experienced and can value, or you have not experienced and can only speculate about or try to have an opinion about.

My perception from much of what I read on here is that many people are victims of their own ambition or their historical contexts, fooling themselves into believing that their minds, intellectual determination, personal willingness or materialistic ambitions or determination can help them achieve some sort of mastery of their own lives.

Ask those with dying or dead relatives or friends, in terminal or severe illness, with destroyed families, broken careers, shattered dreams, in deep loneliness, with an absence of hope or genuine friends if they know the meaning of suffering. Ask them if in their darkest moments, when they have felt suicidal or desperate or empty or abused or simply have experienced hating themselves, their bodies or their vices and perversions, if all of that is coming simply from their uncontrollable intellectual shortcomings or own physical or emotional inability to master their own lives. There and then, you might learn from their answers if intellect and mind and animal instinctual emotions are all there is to it, or if they received the mercy, compassion, love and affection of others who chose to spend time understanding them, supporting them, helping them out in those darkest moments. Then the meaning of love and unselfish service comes to the picture, and the source of all things good and bad and the meaning of free will and liberty to choose become sensible assessments that will never be explained through mathematical formulae, profound debating or laboratory experimentation, Then they might start discerning that there is something called spirit.

Prayer is the expression of a conscious soul, aware of the limitations and great potentials of the body, mind and emotions that the spirit commands. Prayer is a dialogue with the source of all that is greater inside of us, which inspires us to be spiritually industrious, generous and confident. It is the method that opens the connectivity channels between people to aim for a greater good by acting together. Whatever the race, geographical location, historical context, faith book, church, credo, value system, prophet, or adored semiology, prayer paves the way for that complex and long journey towards a clearer understanding of the concepts of spiritual knowledge, religious meaning, personal value and worldly wisdom.

@Luis G

"Ask those with dying or dead relatives or friends, in terminal or sever illness, with destroyed families, broken careers, shattered dreams, in deep loneliness, with an absence of hope or genuine friends if they know the meaning of suffering. Ask them if in their darkest moments, when they have felt suicidal or desperate or empty or abused or simply have experienced hating themselves, their bodies or their vices and perversions, if all of that is coming simply from their uncontrollable intellectual shortcomings or own physical or emotional inability to master their own lives. There and then, you might learn from their answers if intellect and mind and animal instinctual emotions are all there is to it, or if they received the mercy, compassion, love and affection of others who chose to spend time understanding them, supporting them, helping them out in those darkest moments. Then the meaning of love and unselfish service comes to the picture, and the source of all things good and bad and the meaning of free will and liberty to choose become sensible assessments that will never be explained through mathematical formulae, profound debating or laboratory experimentation, Then they might start discerning that there is something called spirit."

As a person who has experienced many family tradedies, I can truly say that prayers have not helped comfort me or brought me any peace of mind. Other members of my family feel differently and I don't knock them for it

Being intolerant of those who don't believe in prayer is just as bad as the opposite. 

I meant tragedies...

I sympathise with you translator and agree with you that acceptance and tolerance towards those like yourself, who find no comfort in prayer, is warranted. However I do not refer in my above paragraph to one´s own use of prayer to find comfort. Or even pretend to start defining whether or not somebody can find comfort in anything when in grief of suffering.

I tried to express that many people have found a way our of their deepest sorrows and have chosen to carry on living despite suffering and grief simply because of the support and love from and to other people around them. Many of these people can be crucial for many of us in turning the tide and gain again a desire to carry on. I have learned the meaning and power of prayer for strength and gratitude (one of several kinds) mostly through the appreciation of the loving, spirited acts that others have generously extended to me.    

Luis, 

let me congradulate you on a gentle way of conveying your ideas which i admire and wish to learn from. 

I think that any idea or way is acceptable as long as it does not negate the other in theory but all too often opposite opinions clash and it is facinating how the extremes resemble eachother in the lack of tolerance in religion, and politics.

I feel that in order to dialogue there needs to be a certain respect and even if you dont agree it is wrong to openly mock or belittle the other person.

Very often people get carry away emotionally with regards to religion and politics, i dont know why exactly.

I wanted to ask people how they felt regarding prayer and faith because i myself struggle with the issue.

I have found that friends of mine who practice a religion dont solve all their problems by magic but i feel it does offer a comfort and support that i envy.

As a person who is exploring these topics i wanted to offer a forum and i am sorry some people used this forum to mock and belittle the subject or misunderstand the direction, perhaps because i was not too clear about not wishing to bring ONE way, i never said i did, i just contributed some songs and ideas.

I thought i would share a clip by Paulo Cohelo whose books have  brought me a lot of comfort and though i dont necessary agree with all his ideas , i enjoy the way he expresses his ideas-

so what do you think is faith something that everyone has like he says but people are just not conscious of it ? or is it possible to live without faith and have a good life just as easily ?

http://youtu.be/uBWT3OrQ9wE

http://youtu.be/D5e5oXBOpDk

http://youtu.be/D5e5oXBOpDk

Freud speaks of the death and life forces 

i suppose from what you say Smitty the positive energy is that life force that is so visible in spring 

Of course each person has their own way and what makes one person happy may not have the same affect on another,

some people like rain 

positive is i suppose what makes things grow and negative is what keeps them from growing 

the direction is so complex and unique for each person 

isnt it ? 

I do enjoy Dawkins way of opposing religion use scientific methods to prove the existence of god, though yes, he does seem to forget the fact that science too is using sometimes the other side's tools, but it is something i learned in scientific methods i think first year University that the observer is observing through his or her own eyes, a biased factor.

What do you get when you clon an atheist and a jehova witness ?

someone who comes to your door every sunday at 5 for no reason at all...

I hope i did not offend jWs or Atheists out there in cyber land..

As far as healing ilness surely you believe that the way a person feels 

whether it is positive or negative about an outcome of a situation influences

the outcome? like a self fulfilling prophesy in psychology

Next time you are in a hurry to catch the train try thinking you are going to miss it or thinking you will catch it 

conduct that experiment and report the results

i think you will find that the way you believe the outcome will be will indeed 

influence the outcome 

Prayer and faith work that way too, i think ...

Luis G:

I thank you for your further explanation as well as the spirit used in conveying it.

Over the years I have learned not to confuse spirituality and religion.

I have also been astonished and appalled by the words of those who profess "positivity" and "gentleness" in with one voice and hate and intolerance with another.  As it is written in Matthew 7:16 [King James version] : 

"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?"

quotes are great, i like them but day to day life means complexity and often contradictions

Very often in life we have to make difficult choices between the lesser of evils 

and so it is difficult to actually label something as positive or negative 

but for me positive is what encourages growth in me 

and makes me want to act in loving ways 

of course it is difficult as life is not as neatly divided as it is written in books 

even books that are considered holy which is why i find it difficult to pray 

using other people's words 

poetry helps clarify, the bible has some beautiful ideas but in reality

if you are using words to belittle another person and make them feel bad

it can not be a good deed

Religion lays down rules about being kind to others and treating the other as you would like to be treated yourself but what do you do when someone abuses you and your right to exist?

So life is not that simple and the choices we make are often complex

I like the American Indian saying that you should first walk in a person's shoes for three days before judging them

I would say three minutes would be good too

Prayer, faith it has to do with the whole human being and his or her values

but i do believe that there is a mystery in life that is not easily reduced to

words or scientific terms and that is where spirituality steps in and offers

ideas

Enjoy the sunny day

for me music and certain songs are prayer by the way

Aretha Franklin for exemple  

http://youtu.be/fkGUt4QYc08

very often messages of love come through surprising places

Janis Joplin whose song was posted by charlie

was blessed by a voice that goes straight towards to the heart but what 

a destructive life she led

another contradiction of life 

"Plant your love and let it grow"

              Eric Clapton 

Positively positive

 http://youtu.be/bXXThSZjNvQ

Carl Sagan on myth and belief as well as the need of science to believe in a big bang theory of the origin of the universe.  Religion and spirituality is more than just having an opinion on the existence/non-existence of a God or Gods and the origin of all things but Sagan does speek to some aspects of religious and scientific belief.

And in the words of John Lennon: Whatever gets you through the night it's all right, it's all right (well almost).

If Carl Sagan was a Christian apologist