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The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid

Hi


Today i read in www.haaretz.com 


that the leader of the Egpytian opposition made a declaration stating that the peace agreement  with Israel is no longer  valid.


The people in charge, the Egpytian,  military meanwhile actually stated that the peace agreement with Israel is still ok.


I thought that giving back Sinai ( oil and tourism , a lot of money for Egpyt) 


would be enough 


I am sad that it seems the peace is a cold one.


When i was in high school i had a pen pal from Egypt for a short while.


I may be naive but i would like the peace to continue ...and worry


Here is a clip from George Moustaki, who is Egpytian born wandering  gypsey jew i can identify with..singing about liberty  


Please dont attack eachother, this thread is about wanting peace


 


 

The text you are quoting:

Hi


Today i read in www.haaretz.com 


that the leader of the Egpytian opposition made a declaration stating that the peace agreement  with Israel is no longer  valid.


The people in charge, the Egpytian,  military meanwhile actually stated that the peace agreement with Israel is still ok.


I thought that giving back Sinai ( oil and tourism , a lot of money for Egpyt) 


would be enough 


I am sad that it seems the peace is a cold one.


When i was in high school i had a pen pal from Egypt for a short while.


I may be naive but i would like the peace to continue ...and worry


Here is a clip from George Moustaki, who is Egpytian born wandering  gypsey jew i can identify with..singing about liberty  


Please dont attack eachother, this thread is about wanting peace


 


 


starFeb 17, 2011 @ 13:57
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 1

Am I surprised?...


No! (LMAO)

The text you are quoting:

Am I surprised?...


No! (LMAO)


Jacob B, Feb 17, 2011 @ 21:20
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 2

thought that giving back Sinai ( oil and tourism , a lot of money for Egpyt) 


would be enough.


Why would you think that?  If you want peace, maybe you should try and understand what motivates your advisary.



The text you are quoting:

thought that giving back Sinai ( oil and tourism , a lot of money for Egpyt) 


would be enough.


Why would you think that?  If you want peace, maybe you should try and understand what motivates your advisary.




Jacob B, Feb 17, 2011 @ 21:21
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 3

hi Jacob


well i am glad that the thread is so far ( touch wood) without the previous


very vicious replies.


I dont know somehow i did expect that signing a peace treaty meant something


but the result has been that Israel and Egypt are not in direct combat


and the Egyptians did try to slow down the smuggeling of weapons to Gaza.


I suppose in that part of the world there needs to be made some


anti Israel declarations in order to physically survive  assisignations  still i wish it was possible to be friends.


I  wonder if it possible to have a politically free zone ? ( just an utopic idea i had after midnight)


 

The text you are quoting:

hi Jacob


well i am glad that the thread is so far ( touch wood) without the previous


very vicious replies.


I dont know somehow i did expect that signing a peace treaty meant something


but the result has been that Israel and Egypt are not in direct combat


and the Egyptians did try to slow down the smuggeling of weapons to Gaza.


I suppose in that part of the world there needs to be made some


anti Israel declarations in order to physically survive  assisignations  still i wish it was possible to be friends.


I  wonder if it possible to have a politically free zone ? ( just an utopic idea i had after midnight)


 


star, Feb 18, 2011 @ 00:18
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 4

You did not answer my question (see the bold)


"....hought that giving back Sinai ( oil and tourism , a lot of money for Egpyt) 


would be enough.


Why would you think that? ..."


 


Your reply :I dont know somehow i did expect that signing a peace treaty meant something


I remember seeing  footage of Mr Chaimerlain waving a simular piece of paper.  People never learn...


How is a piece treaty in any way indicative of (my quote) :..understanding the mindset of your advisery..".


 


Dreaming vs Reality...I think I will choose the latter.


 

The text you are quoting:

You did not answer my question (see the bold)


"....hought that giving back Sinai ( oil and tourism , a lot of money for Egpyt) 


would be enough.


Why would you think that? ..."


 


Your reply :I dont know somehow i did expect that signing a peace treaty meant something


I remember seeing  footage of Mr Chaimerlain waving a simular piece of paper.  People never learn...


How is a piece treaty in any way indicative of (my quote) :..understanding the mindset of your advisery..".


 


Dreaming vs Reality...I think I will choose the latter.


 


Jacob B, Feb 18, 2011 @ 09:45
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 5

but the result has been that Israel and Egypt are not in direct combat


Because of a peace (pun) of paper? LOL.


Seriously, I thought the  billions in aid of the US towards Egypt as a peace bones has someone persueded the Egyptian junta of not Attacking ISrael.


 


Maybe the 300 so called nukes ( supposidly Israel doesnt have)  might have something to do with that also?

The text you are quoting:

but the result has been that Israel and Egypt are not in direct combat


Because of a peace (pun) of paper? LOL.


Seriously, I thought the  billions in aid of the US towards Egypt as a peace bones has someone persueded the Egyptian junta of not Attacking ISrael.


 


Maybe the 300 so called nukes ( supposidly Israel doesnt have)  might have something to do with that also?


Jacob B, Feb 18, 2011 @ 09:50
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 6

"Understand your advisary, understand yourself"  -- art of war


from reuters:


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/crisis-in-egypt/poll-shows-egyptians-favour-democracy-and-stoning-for-adultery/article1892414/


Poll shows Egyptians favour democracy and stoning for adultery

Egyptians reject radical Islamists, but want Islam to play a large role in politics and think democracy is the best political system, according to poll data collected in Muslim countries last year. The sample group of 1,000 was surveyed in face-to-face interviews in April and May of last year for the U.S.-based Pew Research Center. These results give an idea of Egyptian public opinion before the current protests there broke out.


Some good points in the pool:


----------------------


80%: Think suicide bombings are never or rarely justified.


70%: Are concerned or very concerned about Islamist extremism in the world


Not so good points:


----------------------


84%: Believe apostates from Islam should face the death penalty


82%: Believe adulterers should be stoned



I think there needs to be some changes first before you can make peace




 


 

The text you are quoting:

"Understand your advisary, understand yourself"  -- art of war


from reuters:


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/crisis-in-egypt/poll-shows-egyptians-favour-democracy-and-stoning-for-adultery/article1892414/


Poll shows Egyptians favour democracy and stoning for adultery

Egyptians reject radical Islamists, but want Islam to play a large role in politics and think democracy is the best political system, according to poll data collected in Muslim countries last year. The sample group of 1,000 was surveyed in face-to-face interviews in April and May of last year for the U.S.-based Pew Research Center. These results give an idea of Egyptian public opinion before the current protests there broke out.


Some good points in the pool:


----------------------


80%: Think suicide bombings are never or rarely justified.


70%: Are concerned or very concerned about Islamist extremism in the world


Not so good points:


----------------------


84%: Believe apostates from Islam should face the death penalty


82%: Believe adulterers should be stoned



I think there needs to be some changes first before you can make peace




 


 


Jacob B, Feb 19, 2011 @ 13:06
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 7

"You don't make peace with your friends, you make peace with your enemies."


Real reapproachment and understanding can come only after peace (in the piece of paper and no-more-shooting sense) has been set in place.  The Egypt-Israel peace treaty has been a success in the narrow sense that there have been no shooting wars in the Sinai since 1979 (where there were 4 such wars prior).  The mistake, if any on the Israeli side was not pushing for stronger guarantees of real normalization.  If Egypt really transitions toward a free society, this might actually happen on its own, since more forward thinking individuals and organizations would in an ideal world be less subservient to the hatred or mistrust of Israel by some monolithic measure of public opinion.


It remains to be seen the true impact the current wave of protests/revolutions will have on wider Israeli-Arab relations.  At least prior to these events, I had always held out hope that real normalization of relations between Israelis and Arabs would come through the Palestinians.  If the two-state solution can finally be realized, a viable Palestinian state would have close economic and social ties to Israel at every level, and in a political atmosphere much more conducive to real friendship.  (And with the main point of contact between Israelis and Palestinians being between ordinary people in the course of economic activity, rather than with radicalized settlers or the IDF, caught between a wall and a hard place.)

The text you are quoting:

"You don't make peace with your friends, you make peace with your enemies."


Real reapproachment and understanding can come only after peace (in the piece of paper and no-more-shooting sense) has been set in place.  The Egypt-Israel peace treaty has been a success in the narrow sense that there have been no shooting wars in the Sinai since 1979 (where there were 4 such wars prior).  The mistake, if any on the Israeli side was not pushing for stronger guarantees of real normalization.  If Egypt really transitions toward a free society, this might actually happen on its own, since more forward thinking individuals and organizations would in an ideal world be less subservient to the hatred or mistrust of Israel by some monolithic measure of public opinion.


It remains to be seen the true impact the current wave of protests/revolutions will have on wider Israeli-Arab relations.  At least prior to these events, I had always held out hope that real normalization of relations between Israelis and Arabs would come through the Palestinians.  If the two-state solution can finally be realized, a viable Palestinian state would have close economic and social ties to Israel at every level, and in a political atmosphere much more conducive to real friendship.  (And with the main point of contact between Israelis and Palestinians being between ordinary people in the course of economic activity, rather than with radicalized settlers or the IDF, caught between a wall and a hard place.)


jbendavi, Feb 19, 2011 @ 13:50
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 8

"You don't make peace with your friends, you make peace with your enemies."


Thats right: WWI and WW2 (pacific teatre and Europe) are prime examples of that. Oh wait... the allies  demanded  unconditional surrender.


quote: Real reapproachment and understanding can come only after peace


I think it is better to objectivly understand the motives of your advisary BEFORE you enter any negotiation. Kicking this can down the road is a very bad idea. And if Isreal's advisaries truly desired peace,  they could have gotten it a long long long time ago. But instead choose war or break any peace agreement.


debunking myth about Israel:


1)Land was taken from the "palistians"


In truth up till 1850 only 350.000 (jews AND arabs) people lived in Greater Jordan (a territory several sizes the current state of Israel). Thats about the same number of inhebitants that live in current day  city of Tel Aviv today.In 1850 it was a depopulated and barren land.


In 1920 (now an English protectorate) the Arab population was about 1.3 million  (doubled in ONE generation) this was because of immigration from Egypt (btw,..,Yasser Arafat and Edward Saïd were born in Cairo) attracted mostly by economic growth of jewish entrepreneural settlers, So most of the "palastinians" are not indigineus. 


Infact the Arab states who waged war only spoke oppertunisticly of "the Palistinians" after the utter defeat of 1967.


Judea, Samaria and Gaza had been under Arab control for almost 20 years, and they saw no need to recognize palastinian "national" rights at any time. Only after the defeat of 1967 did they choose to support the myth of "a palastinian people".

The text you are quoting:

"You don't make peace with your friends, you make peace with your enemies."


Thats right: WWI and WW2 (pacific teatre and Europe) are prime examples of that. Oh wait... the allies  demanded  unconditional surrender.


quote: Real reapproachment and understanding can come only after peace


I think it is better to objectivly understand the motives of your advisary BEFORE you enter any negotiation. Kicking this can down the road is a very bad idea. And if Isreal's advisaries truly desired peace,  they could have gotten it a long long long time ago. But instead choose war or break any peace agreement.


debunking myth about Israel:


1)Land was taken from the "palistians"


In truth up till 1850 only 350.000 (jews AND arabs) people lived in Greater Jordan (a territory several sizes the current state of Israel). Thats about the same number of inhebitants that live in current day  city of Tel Aviv today.In 1850 it was a depopulated and barren land.


In 1920 (now an English protectorate) the Arab population was about 1.3 million  (doubled in ONE generation) this was because of immigration from Egypt (btw,..,Yasser Arafat and Edward Saïd were born in Cairo) attracted mostly by economic growth of jewish entrepreneural settlers, So most of the "palastinians" are not indigineus. 


Infact the Arab states who waged war only spoke oppertunisticly of "the Palistinians" after the utter defeat of 1967.


Judea, Samaria and Gaza had been under Arab control for almost 20 years, and they saw no need to recognize palastinian "national" rights at any time. Only after the defeat of 1967 did they choose to support the myth of "a palastinian people".


Jacob B, Feb 19, 2011 @ 15:45
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 9

Everyone can have their own narratives and even their own intentions.  The critical thing is to judge whether the practical steps taken in any agreement are likely to lead to the desired outcome.  Indeed the Egypt-Israel peace may have been deficient in the area of true economic and social normalization of relations.  Israeli-Palestinian peace has the advantage that practical considerations make close social and economic ties unavoidable.


Peacemaking is always a minefield when trying to judge the "true intentions" of "the other side" because there is a complex interplay between the population and their leaders, also depending on what kind of political system and political culture is at play.

The text you are quoting:

Everyone can have their own narratives and even their own intentions.  The critical thing is to judge whether the practical steps taken in any agreement are likely to lead to the desired outcome.  Indeed the Egypt-Israel peace may have been deficient in the area of true economic and social normalization of relations.  Israeli-Palestinian peace has the advantage that practical considerations make close social and economic ties unavoidable.


Peacemaking is always a minefield when trying to judge the "true intentions" of "the other side" because there is a complex interplay between the population and their leaders, also depending on what kind of political system and political culture is at play.


jbendavi, Feb 19, 2011 @ 18:25
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 10

Arab leaders and the press in the Arab world are quite clear about their intentions towards the state of Isreal ,aka "whipe Israel off the map" or variants thereoff. Now we can all dream of happy clappy treehugging peace, because the peacinik religion demands it, but how does being blind prevent your head eventually from ending up on the chopping block?


Like I said "palistinian" national rights became an issue only after the defeat of 1967 as it was  used as a propaganda tool for the Arab nations defeated in the said war,  Isreal has offered many oppertunities for  peace, but the enemies try the tactic of "a thousand cuts" ,in the way of low-tech rocket launches. 


Of course  one can always argue that Arab countries are not true democracies like Israel, but then again Turkey is a democracy as well and their ELECTED PM Erdogan, (and Hamas lover ), recently said "Democracy is like a train, once you reach your destination, you step off".


Riiiiiiiiight!


Again this "peace" with Egypt was bought and payed for by billions in foreign aid from the US going towards Mubarrak and his junta. Keeping large segments of your own population in check from waging war against Israel is not real peace.

The text you are quoting:

Arab leaders and the press in the Arab world are quite clear about their intentions towards the state of Isreal ,aka "whipe Israel off the map" or variants thereoff. Now we can all dream of happy clappy treehugging peace, because the peacinik religion demands it, but how does being blind prevent your head eventually from ending up on the chopping block?


Like I said "palistinian" national rights became an issue only after the defeat of 1967 as it was  used as a propaganda tool for the Arab nations defeated in the said war,  Isreal has offered many oppertunities for  peace, but the enemies try the tactic of "a thousand cuts" ,in the way of low-tech rocket launches. 


Of course  one can always argue that Arab countries are not true democracies like Israel, but then again Turkey is a democracy as well and their ELECTED PM Erdogan, (and Hamas lover ), recently said "Democracy is like a train, once you reach your destination, you step off".


Riiiiiiiiight!


Again this "peace" with Egypt was bought and payed for by billions in foreign aid from the US going towards Mubarrak and his junta. Keeping large segments of your own population in check from waging war against Israel is not real peace.


Jacob B, Feb 19, 2011 @ 20:10
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 11

It's true that merely wishing for peace will not make it so.  On the other hand,it's certainly true that if everyone believes the world is a dark and scary place where people hate each other and are trying to destroy each other with one lie or conspiracy after another, then the world WILL be as so.


People have to work to create the reality they wish to see.  It should be done with optimism, but never blindly.  I never suggested that Israel should dismantle its army and open its borders. (Only that it should HAVE borders.)


Taking the stance that "they hate us, so we shouldn't talk to them" only serves to perpetuate the existing situation.

The text you are quoting:

It's true that merely wishing for peace will not make it so.  On the other hand,it's certainly true that if everyone believes the world is a dark and scary place where people hate each other and are trying to destroy each other with one lie or conspiracy after another, then the world WILL be as so.


People have to work to create the reality they wish to see.  It should be done with optimism, but never blindly.  I never suggested that Israel should dismantle its army and open its borders. (Only that it should HAVE borders.)


Taking the stance that "they hate us, so we shouldn't talk to them" only serves to perpetuate the existing situation.


jbendavi, Feb 20, 2011 @ 00:05
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 12

It's true that merely wishing for peace will not make it so.  On the other hand,it's certainly true that if everyone believes the world is a dark and scary place where people hate each other and are trying to destroy each other with one lie or conspiracy after another, then the world WILL be as so.

People have to work to create the reality they wish to see.  It should be done with optimism, but never blindly.  I never suggested that Israel should dismantle its army and open its borders. (Only that it should HAVE borders.)

Taking the stance that "they hate us, so we shouldn't talk to them" only serves to perpetuate the existing situation.


Feb 20, 11 00:05

sorry to contradict my learned friend from canada but it is for me so incredible how quickly people who come from vast lands do not think REALISTICALLY how tiny Israel is and about how HUGE the arab world 


I know there will be those who will say palestinians are unique people who deserve a land of their own but giving someone something without asking for anything in return has not proven itself as a good strategy, appeasing political regimes who work with power as a value never worked in the past and i have serious doubts whether it will work in the future.


I met a swiss couple in the woods today, upon hearing i am from israel the man proceeded to throw at me  the following terms


settlers , occupation, etc etc, the horrible wall , the horrible extremists, the poor poor palestinians, stealing land, occupying etc etc


I was very confident, i asked him does he care at all if the jews have a land of their own or not?


does he know the history and all


 I dont think ,this  man in his 2os ,ls an exception .lets hope not the rule


 


 he t otally reflects the swiss media


People have this incredibly easy solutions


just appease the arabs and everything will be fine


appeasing bullies nev er works


Egypt has for years taught antisemitic material in schools and so i seriously doubt a miracle transformation 


look , if it was that easy we would have done it a long time ago.


I dont think people individuals can change much , it is all a process 


 societies definitely do not change overnight . i am cautiously optimistic though

The text you are quoting:

sorry to contradict my learned friend from canada but it is for me so incredible how quickly people who come from vast lands do not think REALISTICALLY how tiny Israel is and about how HUGE the arab world 


I know there will be those who will say palestinians are unique people who deserve a land of their own but giving someone something without asking for anything in return has not proven itself as a good strategy, appeasing political regimes who work with power as a value never worked in the past and i have serious doubts whether it will work in the future.


I met a swiss couple in the woods today, upon hearing i am from israel the man proceeded to throw at me  the following terms


settlers , occupation, etc etc, the horrible wall , the horrible extremists, the poor poor palestinians, stealing land, occupying etc etc


I was very confident, i asked him does he care at all if the jews have a land of their own or not?


does he know the history and all


 I dont think ,this  man in his 2os ,ls an exception .lets hope not the rule


 


 he t otally reflects the swiss media


People have this incredibly easy solutions


just appease the arabs and everything will be fine


appeasing bullies nev er works


Egypt has for years taught antisemitic material in schools and so i seriously doubt a miracle transformation 


look , if it was that easy we would have done it a long time ago.


I dont think people individuals can change much , it is all a process 


 societies definitely do not change overnight . i am cautiously optimistic though


star, Feb 20, 2011 @ 01:25
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 13

sorry bits are missing from my reply.


I meant to say that i would like to be cautiously optimistic however


if we think how difficult it is to change ONE person, ( think about relationships , educating kids etc)


imagine how difficult it is to change societies especially when they dont want to change


like that joke, how many psychologists does it take to change a lightbulb?


one but he really has to want to change.


I understand people wanting their rights but for that they have to also act right with the other side.


To believe something is true when there is lack of evidence seems delusional to me rather than positive thinking


however i do hope that there are also educated intelligent people in egypt who realize what to expect and what makes sense and dont want to control the ignorant masses ,


Lets hope but stay cautious nontheless


 


 

The text you are quoting:

sorry bits are missing from my reply.


I meant to say that i would like to be cautiously optimistic however


if we think how difficult it is to change ONE person, ( think about relationships , educating kids etc)


imagine how difficult it is to change societies especially when they dont want to change


like that joke, how many psychologists does it take to change a lightbulb?


one but he really has to want to change.


I understand people wanting their rights but for that they have to also act right with the other side.


To believe something is true when there is lack of evidence seems delusional to me rather than positive thinking


however i do hope that there are also educated intelligent people in egypt who realize what to expect and what makes sense and dont want to control the ignorant masses ,


Lets hope but stay cautious nontheless


 


 


star, Feb 20, 2011 @ 01:47
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 14
For those who believe that only Israelis can speak on the issues of Middle East peace, here are the views of an eminent Israeli soldier-statesman.  He explains, from decades of experience, his practical experience in reducing terror.  And let us not forget, Yigal Amir, the assassin of Prime Minister Rabin, was not a muslim.
My Vision of Peace
By Admiral (ret.) Ami Ayalon

Thank you very much for joining me. I want to start by saying something about myself–not to describe what I did in the Israeli Navy which, I think, is irrelevant but I want to mention the fact that my parents came to Israel in the 1930’s. My father was an illegal immigrant and my mother came as a child to study in Jerusalem. Together, they helped to create a Kibbutz in the Jordan valley. My father retired several years ago at the age of eighty, for the last ten years he was the carpenter on the Kibbutz.

I joined the Navy and served for 32 years. I retired in January 1996. It was two months after the assassination of our Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin. Upon retirement I planned for a business career but after one week of interviewing I received a telephone call in the middle of the night from Shimon Peres. He asked me to be the Director of the Israeli Shin Bet (internal security). This was a strange request because I refused the offer when it came from Prime Minister Rabin twelve months earlier. The fact that I didn’t take the job then has stayed with me ever since.

I joined the Israeli secret service as Director for four and a half years. The first ten days were probably the most painful days for Israel. Between the last week of February and the first week of March 1996 we lost fifty-five people to terror while 215 people were wounded. It was clear to me that unless we faced this wave of violence the whole peace process would collapse.

After one year we dramatically reduced the level of terror. Between 1998 and the start of the intifada in 2000 we brought terror to levels that seem amazing low by today’s standards. In the twelve months before the intifada we lost only one Israeli citizen as a result of terror. This seems strange; we have to remind ourselves that during the last four and a half years we lost more than one thousand Israeli citizens to terror.

The question is: how were we able to reduce terror? This is an important question because if we understand what happened then we will be able to repeat it. This is something that we have been trying to do with the People’s Voice campaign over the past three years.

Let me tell you why terror levels fell. It did not happen because of the Israeli Shin-Bet, I was the director most of the time and I can tell you that Avi Dichter who replaced me is a very good Director. From an operational point of view the Israeli Shin-Bet is doing a great job.

There are reasons other than the Shin Bet that terror levels fell. We analyzed these and found a very interesting correlation between three factors. The first was Palestinian public opinion, as it was measured by Doctor Khalil Shikaki. The second factor was the terror policy made by Hamas, and the third factor was the prevention and security policy of the Palestinian Authority.

As we understood it then, when support for the peace process was high amongst the Palestinian street the Palestinian Authority made greater efforts to prevent terror and Hamas used terror less often.

Allow me to explain. We Israelis see Hamas as a terror organization and we are right. But we must understand that Hamas is not only a terrorist organization. It is also a way of life and a religious movement. Hamas has charities, they have municipal organizations, and they have financial organizations. Hamas will not fight against the will of the Palestinian street. They will not use terror when Palestinians do not approve of terrorism as a legitimate tool.

When Palestinians see progress in the political process (the peace process) they do not approve terror as a legitimate tool. This is why when the Palestinians felt like they were achieving freedom, less humiliation, and an improved economy they did not approve of Hamas or terror. For this reason the PA could fight against terror and Hamas without being perceived as Israeli collaborators.

I used to meet the Palestinian security leaders monthly. People like Jibril Rajub, Mohammad Dahlan, Hamin al-Hindi and others. We met to share information and cooperate in fighting terror. They used to tell me, “We are not meeting with you and sharing information because you are paying our salaries.” They used to tell me that they did not view themselves as the South Lebanese Army. They cooperated with me because they understood that at the end of the road they will achieve their freedom as a result of the process which included fighting terror.


What we understood then was that the hope of the Palestinian people was the main reason why we were able to reduce the level of violence the way we did it during the late 1990’s.



In a way this is the main assumption of the People’s Voice campaign. We have to create hope amongst Palestinians and Israelis because this will create the necessary energy to do what needs to be done. For the Palestinians this means fighting terror the way they did in the late 1990’s.

The People’s Voice is based on two assumptions. The first is to start from the future and go backwards. Meaning to describe the future – where we want to go – to create a hope for our vision of the future. Only then can we go backwards and see what needs to be done to reach the future and what the consequences will be. The second assumption is that we must go back to the people. This means that only the people are able to show the way forward to our leaders. Our leaders use diplomacy, they keep their cards close to their chest, and by doing so they are not able to deal with the future and to tell us where we are heading. When we launched our initiative three years ago we faced difficulties; we faced opposition from our side. We were not very popular. On the Palestinian side they faced not only opposition but also violence.

Today according to our polls between 68-75% of the Israeli public approves of our six principles for negotiation of a final status agreement between Palestinians and Israelis (http://www.mifkad.org.il/en/principles.asp). If we add to our six principles two additional principles (a security fence along the agreed border and security guarantees made to Israel by the international community) we reach beyond 75% approval amongst the Israeli public.

The public approval rates amongst Palestinians are very similar. This represents a dramatic change that has taken place over the past four years. I think that what we see today is that the two people, not only agree to a two state solution, but agree and are ready to pay the price in order to get there. Most Palestinians understand that a Palestinian State alongside Israel will mean giving up the right of return (to Israel). Israelis understand that in order to get where we want to be, which is for Israel to be a safe and democratic home for the Jewish people, we must give up most of the territories, most of the settlements, and to share Jerusalem. This was not as clear three or four years ago but according to the polls this is the price Israelis and Palestinians are willing to pay for peace.

I want to finish by saying that these principles resonate beyond the Israeli public today. Our principles are penetrating the political community as well. If you listen to Likud Members of Knesset and Minister like Ehud Olmert, Tzippi Livni, Meir Shetreet, and Micki Eitan you will hear that they accept our six principles. They didn’t see the light one morning but they understand success in future elections—whether they will be in twelve months or two years—will depend on accepting what the Israeli public believes will lead to stability and security.

This is why in spite of the fact that the present situation is not very hopeful, I am still optimistic. If we see the disengagement plan in the context of the six principles of the People’s Voice we will see that this is the first step on the Road Map leading to a two state solution. I believe that we shall see stability and security in my generation if the disengagement ends up being a step in the right direction. If, for example, disengagement will lead to the creation of additional settlements in the West Bank there will be no security, no stability and the economy will go into further decline; we will have repeated the same mistakes that we made in the past. This is why the Peoples Voice is so important.

Let me finish just by saying that after sailing for thirty-two years in the Navy I learned that if a Captain does not know where he wants to sail no wind on earth will be strong enough to bring him there. It is not important where we withdraw from but where we go to. The six principles that the Mifkad Leumi or People’s Voice propose is where Israel should go.


Source - http://www.ameinu.net/perspectives/current_issues.php?articleid=55 at  Ameinu Progressive Zionist Organization

The text you are quoting:
For those who believe that only Israelis can speak on the issues of Middle East peace, here are the views of an eminent Israeli soldier-statesman.  He explains, from decades of experience, his practical experience in reducing terror.  And let us not forget, Yigal Amir, the assassin of Prime Minister Rabin, was not a muslim.
My Vision of Peace
By Admiral (ret.) Ami Ayalon

Thank you very much for joining me. I want to start by saying something about myself–not to describe what I did in the Israeli Navy which, I think, is irrelevant but I want to mention the fact that my parents came to Israel in the 1930’s. My father was an illegal immigrant and my mother came as a child to study in Jerusalem. Together, they helped to create a Kibbutz in the Jordan valley. My father retired several years ago at the age of eighty, for the last ten years he was the carpenter on the Kibbutz.

I joined the Navy and served for 32 years. I retired in January 1996. It was two months after the assassination of our Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin. Upon retirement I planned for a business career but after one week of interviewing I received a telephone call in the middle of the night from Shimon Peres. He asked me to be the Director of the Israeli Shin Bet (internal security). This was a strange request because I refused the offer when it came from Prime Minister Rabin twelve months earlier. The fact that I didn’t take the job then has stayed with me ever since.

I joined the Israeli secret service as Director for four and a half years. The first ten days were probably the most painful days for Israel. Between the last week of February and the first week of March 1996 we lost fifty-five people to terror while 215 people were wounded. It was clear to me that unless we faced this wave of violence the whole peace process would collapse.

After one year we dramatically reduced the level of terror. Between 1998 and the start of the intifada in 2000 we brought terror to levels that seem amazing low by today’s standards. In the twelve months before the intifada we lost only one Israeli citizen as a result of terror. This seems strange; we have to remind ourselves that during the last four and a half years we lost more than one thousand Israeli citizens to terror.

The question is: how were we able to reduce terror? This is an important question because if we understand what happened then we will be able to repeat it. This is something that we have been trying to do with the People’s Voice campaign over the past three years.

Let me tell you why terror levels fell. It did not happen because of the Israeli Shin-Bet, I was the director most of the time and I can tell you that Avi Dichter who replaced me is a very good Director. From an operational point of view the Israeli Shin-Bet is doing a great job.

There are reasons other than the Shin Bet that terror levels fell. We analyzed these and found a very interesting correlation between three factors. The first was Palestinian public opinion, as it was measured by Doctor Khalil Shikaki. The second factor was the terror policy made by Hamas, and the third factor was the prevention and security policy of the Palestinian Authority.

As we understood it then, when support for the peace process was high amongst the Palestinian street the Palestinian Authority made greater efforts to prevent terror and Hamas used terror less often.

Allow me to explain. We Israelis see Hamas as a terror organization and we are right. But we must understand that Hamas is not only a terrorist organization. It is also a way of life and a religious movement. Hamas has charities, they have municipal organizations, and they have financial organizations. Hamas will not fight against the will of the Palestinian street. They will not use terror when Palestinians do not approve of terrorism as a legitimate tool.

When Palestinians see progress in the political process (the peace process) they do not approve terror as a legitimate tool. This is why when the Palestinians felt like they were achieving freedom, less humiliation, and an improved economy they did not approve of Hamas or terror. For this reason the PA could fight against terror and Hamas without being perceived as Israeli collaborators.

I used to meet the Palestinian security leaders monthly. People like Jibril Rajub, Mohammad Dahlan, Hamin al-Hindi and others. We met to share information and cooperate in fighting terror. They used to tell me, “We are not meeting with you and sharing information because you are paying our salaries.” They used to tell me that they did not view themselves as the South Lebanese Army. They cooperated with me because they understood that at the end of the road they will achieve their freedom as a result of the process which included fighting terror.


What we understood then was that the hope of the Palestinian people was the main reason why we were able to reduce the level of violence the way we did it during the late 1990’s.



In a way this is the main assumption of the People’s Voice campaign. We have to create hope amongst Palestinians and Israelis because this will create the necessary energy to do what needs to be done. For the Palestinians this means fighting terror the way they did in the late 1990’s.

The People’s Voice is based on two assumptions. The first is to start from the future and go backwards. Meaning to describe the future – where we want to go – to create a hope for our vision of the future. Only then can we go backwards and see what needs to be done to reach the future and what the consequences will be. The second assumption is that we must go back to the people. This means that only the people are able to show the way forward to our leaders. Our leaders use diplomacy, they keep their cards close to their chest, and by doing so they are not able to deal with the future and to tell us where we are heading. When we launched our initiative three years ago we faced difficulties; we faced opposition from our side. We were not very popular. On the Palestinian side they faced not only opposition but also violence.

Today according to our polls between 68-75% of the Israeli public approves of our six principles for negotiation of a final status agreement between Palestinians and Israelis (http://www.mifkad.org.il/en/principles.asp). If we add to our six principles two additional principles (a security fence along the agreed border and security guarantees made to Israel by the international community) we reach beyond 75% approval amongst the Israeli public.

The public approval rates amongst Palestinians are very similar. This represents a dramatic change that has taken place over the past four years. I think that what we see today is that the two people, not only agree to a two state solution, but agree and are ready to pay the price in order to get there. Most Palestinians understand that a Palestinian State alongside Israel will mean giving up the right of return (to Israel). Israelis understand that in order to get where we want to be, which is for Israel to be a safe and democratic home for the Jewish people, we must give up most of the territories, most of the settlements, and to share Jerusalem. This was not as clear three or four years ago but according to the polls this is the price Israelis and Palestinians are willing to pay for peace.

I want to finish by saying that these principles resonate beyond the Israeli public today. Our principles are penetrating the political community as well. If you listen to Likud Members of Knesset and Minister like Ehud Olmert, Tzippi Livni, Meir Shetreet, and Micki Eitan you will hear that they accept our six principles. They didn’t see the light one morning but they understand success in future elections—whether they will be in twelve months or two years—will depend on accepting what the Israeli public believes will lead to stability and security.

This is why in spite of the fact that the present situation is not very hopeful, I am still optimistic. If we see the disengagement plan in the context of the six principles of the People’s Voice we will see that this is the first step on the Road Map leading to a two state solution. I believe that we shall see stability and security in my generation if the disengagement ends up being a step in the right direction. If, for example, disengagement will lead to the creation of additional settlements in the West Bank there will be no security, no stability and the economy will go into further decline; we will have repeated the same mistakes that we made in the past. This is why the Peoples Voice is so important.

Let me finish just by saying that after sailing for thirty-two years in the Navy I learned that if a Captain does not know where he wants to sail no wind on earth will be strong enough to bring him there. It is not important where we withdraw from but where we go to. The six principles that the Mifkad Leumi or People’s Voice propose is where Israel should go.


Source - http://www.ameinu.net/perspectives/current_issues.php?articleid=55 at  Ameinu Progressive Zionist Organization


Translator, Feb 20, 2011 @ 02:05
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 15

From Haaretz, an Israeli view ...







Published 03:11 17.02.11
Latest update 03:11 17.02.11


Egypt's revolution can free Israelis, too
How did it happen that the strongest regime in the Middle East - one that was based on muscle and oppression, as well as an army that enjoyed American assistance 10 times the size of what India receives - surrendered without a battle?
By Meron Rapoport


The Egyptian people are victorious. That is the only clear fact at this point. Nobody knows where this triumph will take Egypt: Will a military regime arise? Will an Islamic government take shape? Or Egypt's own sort of democracy? Or mere anarchy? One can speculate, but at this stage such speculation amounts to nothing more than taking wild guesses. As such, it's more logical to deal with what already happened than with what will happen in the future. Or, more precisely, we should be asking - How did this happen?


How did it happen that the strongest regime in the Middle East - one that was based on muscle and oppression, as well as an army that enjoyed American assistance 10 times the size of what India receives - surrendered without a battle? Collapsed without even firing a shot?


Ousted President Hosni Mubarak sent tanks to the heart of Cairo, but could not actually use them. Instead the demonstrators made use of them, climbing on top of the tanks and sleeping along their turrets. The demonstrators' main source of strength was in their numbers. All of the demonstrations that led to the downfall of Communist regimes in Eastern Europe, combined, do not even amount to the number of protesters who took to the streets in Egypt in one single day. And even more impressive than the sheer number of protesters was the political tactic they employed.


They defined this tactic as "salmiya" - based on the Arabic word for peace, the term can be translated loosely into English as "non-violent." With the help of a million demonstrators, anything can be done: A television station and governmental buildings can be burned down; wealthy neighborhoods can be looted; loathed security men can be trampled. But in Egypt, nothing of this sort occurred. The rule of non-violence was scrupulously upheld. Judging by what is being broadcast on Arabic-language TV networks, this rule has permeated through the Arab world.


Celebrants in Jordan, Qatar, Yemen and Tunisia said more or less the same thing, praising Egypt for toppling a dictatorship through peaceful means. It is hard to underestimate the import of this message. First and foremost, the message exerts influence on the larger Arab world; more specifically, it has an impact on the Palestinians. Hamas supporters also celebrated the Egyptian revolution in the streets of Gaza, but it is not certain that they had anything to be happy about. What happened in the country next door actually proves that Hamas' tactic of "armed struggle" is not only immoral, but also ineffective.


Demonstrators in Egypt grasped that terror - like the assassination of President Anwar Sadat in 1981 - might appeal to machismo instincts, but is bad for a revolution. The sweeping, surprising victory of the peaceful tactics used in Egypt is likely to influence the Palestinians. And while that might be bad news for "Israel" - meaning the official state establishment - it is good news for Israelis.


It is bad news for the abstract "Israel" - which believes that maintaining the occupation, and the control over millions of Palestinians by means of superior military and intelligence, is a viable option. A belief that might hold true so long as Palestinians choose to oppose the occupation through mainly armed struggle. Non-violent opposition, however, is likely to render Israel's military strength impotent.


Among the Palestinians, there is already evidence that there is an inclination toward favor diplomacy, as opposed to armed struggle. The triumph of the non-violent struggle in Egypt will likely turn this growing tendency among Palestinians into a mass phenomenon. That is very good news for Israelis who believe the conflict can be brought to an end without apocalyptic warfare. The speed by which the non-violent revolt toppled the Egyptian regime teaches us something else: the conflict and the occupation can be brought to an end much faster than anyone around here imagines. Tahrir Square will liberate us too.






The text you are quoting:

From Haaretz, an Israeli view ...







Published 03:11 17.02.11
Latest update 03:11 17.02.11


Egypt's revolution can free Israelis, too
How did it happen that the strongest regime in the Middle East - one that was based on muscle and oppression, as well as an army that enjoyed American assistance 10 times the size of what India receives - surrendered without a battle?
By Meron Rapoport


The Egyptian people are victorious. That is the only clear fact at this point. Nobody knows where this triumph will take Egypt: Will a military regime arise? Will an Islamic government take shape? Or Egypt's own sort of democracy? Or mere anarchy? One can speculate, but at this stage such speculation amounts to nothing more than taking wild guesses. As such, it's more logical to deal with what already happened than with what will happen in the future. Or, more precisely, we should be asking - How did this happen?


How did it happen that the strongest regime in the Middle East - one that was based on muscle and oppression, as well as an army that enjoyed American assistance 10 times the size of what India receives - surrendered without a battle? Collapsed without even firing a shot?


Ousted President Hosni Mubarak sent tanks to the heart of Cairo, but could not actually use them. Instead the demonstrators made use of them, climbing on top of the tanks and sleeping along their turrets. The demonstrators' main source of strength was in their numbers. All of the demonstrations that led to the downfall of Communist regimes in Eastern Europe, combined, do not even amount to the number of protesters who took to the streets in Egypt in one single day. And even more impressive than the sheer number of protesters was the political tactic they employed.


They defined this tactic as "salmiya" - based on the Arabic word for peace, the term can be translated loosely into English as "non-violent." With the help of a million demonstrators, anything can be done: A television station and governmental buildings can be burned down; wealthy neighborhoods can be looted; loathed security men can be trampled. But in Egypt, nothing of this sort occurred. The rule of non-violence was scrupulously upheld. Judging by what is being broadcast on Arabic-language TV networks, this rule has permeated through the Arab world.


Celebrants in Jordan, Qatar, Yemen and Tunisia said more or less the same thing, praising Egypt for toppling a dictatorship through peaceful means. It is hard to underestimate the import of this message. First and foremost, the message exerts influence on the larger Arab world; more specifically, it has an impact on the Palestinians. Hamas supporters also celebrated the Egyptian revolution in the streets of Gaza, but it is not certain that they had anything to be happy about. What happened in the country next door actually proves that Hamas' tactic of "armed struggle" is not only immoral, but also ineffective.


Demonstrators in Egypt grasped that terror - like the assassination of President Anwar Sadat in 1981 - might appeal to machismo instincts, but is bad for a revolution. The sweeping, surprising victory of the peaceful tactics used in Egypt is likely to influence the Palestinians. And while that might be bad news for "Israel" - meaning the official state establishment - it is good news for Israelis.


It is bad news for the abstract "Israel" - which believes that maintaining the occupation, and the control over millions of Palestinians by means of superior military and intelligence, is a viable option. A belief that might hold true so long as Palestinians choose to oppose the occupation through mainly armed struggle. Non-violent opposition, however, is likely to render Israel's military strength impotent.


Among the Palestinians, there is already evidence that there is an inclination toward favor diplomacy, as opposed to armed struggle. The triumph of the non-violent struggle in Egypt will likely turn this growing tendency among Palestinians into a mass phenomenon. That is very good news for Israelis who believe the conflict can be brought to an end without apocalyptic warfare. The speed by which the non-violent revolt toppled the Egyptian regime teaches us something else: the conflict and the occupation can be brought to an end much faster than anyone around here imagines. Tahrir Square will liberate us too.







Translator, Feb 20, 2011 @ 02:46
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 16

Yet another Israeli's view on the recent events...


http://www.tikkun.org/article.php/20110218154413928

The text you are quoting:

Yet another Israeli's view on the recent events...


http://www.tikkun.org/article.php/20110218154413928


Translator, Feb 20, 2011 @ 07:34
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 17

@Star


"sorry to contradict my learned friend from canada but it is for me so incredible how quickly people who come from vast lands do not think REALISTICALLY how tiny Israel is and about how HUGE the arab world "


This form of argument is wholly invalid because it declares a person's statement as "unrealistic" based upon his or her national origin.  This has nothing to do with logic or fact. This is akin to saying that he has never looked at a map of the region in order to understand "how tiny Israel is and about how HUGE the arab world (is)."


I know nothing about Jbendavi's background, but his argumentation throughout these threads appears to based upon facts, rather than simply on opinion.


For all any of us knows, he might have spent a considerable number of years in the region. Whatever the case, to say that a person does not realistically understand the high stakes in the region because he or she was not born there is not particuarly true or helpful. 


Everyone in the world has a stake in peace in the Middle East in some way or another.  Simply because one does not share another's opinion about the situation does not make the other person vicious, unrealistic, naive or a sympathizer of nefarious organizations.


Finally, with the invention use, and proliferation of nuclear weapons modern warfare entered the atomic age.  This paradigm shift in weaponry along with the evolution in post- WWII warfare strategies ( including guerilla warfare and terrorism among others) makes it difficult for any one country to demand unilateral and unconditional surrender without its population facing long-term wars of attrition and/or catastrophic attacks on domestic soil.  Populations of countries at war begin to resist the costs in "blood and treasure" of protracted war without end. Families on all sides of conflicts tire of "weeping for generations;" they want to bury their dead and raise their children in peace.


These are only some of the reasons why countries and political movements have shifted over time to using the resources of the United Nations (particularly peacekeeping and the Security Council), the International Criminal Court and other global political institutions, however imperfect (and sometimes corrupt) they may be.  From Vietnam, to South Africa to Northern Ireland, warring parties have moved -- often shakily -- from conflict to reconciliation.


To fail to do so, given whatever dire predictions, is to move closer to Armageddon and to condemn future generations on all sides to continual purgatory.

The text you are quoting:

@Star


"sorry to contradict my learned friend from canada but it is for me so incredible how quickly people who come from vast lands do not think REALISTICALLY how tiny Israel is and about how HUGE the arab world "


This form of argument is wholly invalid because it declares a person's statement as "unrealistic" based upon his or her national origin.  This has nothing to do with logic or fact. This is akin to saying that he has never looked at a map of the region in order to understand "how tiny Israel is and about how HUGE the arab world (is)."


I know nothing about Jbendavi's background, but his argumentation throughout these threads appears to based upon facts, rather than simply on opinion.


For all any of us knows, he might have spent a considerable number of years in the region. Whatever the case, to say that a person does not realistically understand the high stakes in the region because he or she was not born there is not particuarly true or helpful. 


Everyone in the world has a stake in peace in the Middle East in some way or another.  Simply because one does not share another's opinion about the situation does not make the other person vicious, unrealistic, naive or a sympathizer of nefarious organizations.


Finally, with the invention use, and proliferation of nuclear weapons modern warfare entered the atomic age.  This paradigm shift in weaponry along with the evolution in post- WWII warfare strategies ( including guerilla warfare and terrorism among others) makes it difficult for any one country to demand unilateral and unconditional surrender without its population facing long-term wars of attrition and/or catastrophic attacks on domestic soil.  Populations of countries at war begin to resist the costs in "blood and treasure" of protracted war without end. Families on all sides of conflicts tire of "weeping for generations;" they want to bury their dead and raise their children in peace.


These are only some of the reasons why countries and political movements have shifted over time to using the resources of the United Nations (particularly peacekeeping and the Security Council), the International Criminal Court and other global political institutions, however imperfect (and sometimes corrupt) they may be.  From Vietnam, to South Africa to Northern Ireland, warring parties have moved -- often shakily -- from conflict to reconciliation.


To fail to do so, given whatever dire predictions, is to move closer to Armageddon and to condemn future generations on all sides to continual purgatory.


Translator, Feb 20, 2011 @ 08:54
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 18
The text you are quoting:

Marksist, Feb 20, 2011 @ 15:46
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 19

On the other hand,it's certainly true that if everyone believes the world is a dark and scary place where people hate each other and are trying to destroy each other with one lie or conspiracy after another, then the world WILL be as so.


You just showed me what blind faith look like,  what you are clearly saying is that if reality  as what it is (dark and scary)  then it will be dark and scary if we view it that way.(say what?) instead we should color it pink in our minds and reality will follow what we pretend it to be.


Maybe we should all go back to the 60's and take drugs to augment this dark view of reality. Reminds me of stories  the Romans (well some of them) still partying when the barbarian hords were sacking  looting and raping the city. "Its all not really happening if you dont think about it" (LOOOOL)


 



 Taking the stance that "they hate us, so we shouldn't talk to them"
I re-read the comments but  who is saying that? or even implying that? But following your reasoning in the first paragraph, . because i dont follow your proposed jedi-like-manipulation of reality,..,i must be some warmongering anti-peace biggot.

The text you are quoting:

On the other hand,it's certainly true that if everyone believes the world is a dark and scary place where people hate each other and are trying to destroy each other with one lie or conspiracy after another, then the world WILL be as so.


You just showed me what blind faith look like,  what you are clearly saying is that if reality  as what it is (dark and scary)  then it will be dark and scary if we view it that way.(say what?) instead we should color it pink in our minds and reality will follow what we pretend it to be.


Maybe we should all go back to the 60's and take drugs to augment this dark view of reality. Reminds me of stories  the Romans (well some of them) still partying when the barbarian hords were sacking  looting and raping the city. "Its all not really happening if you dont think about it" (LOOOOL)


 



 Taking the stance that "they hate us, so we shouldn't talk to them"
I re-read the comments but  who is saying that? or even implying that? But following your reasoning in the first paragraph, . because i dont follow your proposed jedi-like-manipulation of reality,..,i must be some warmongering anti-peace biggot.


Jacob B, Feb 20, 2011 @ 15:33
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 20

Star:I met a swiss couple in the woods today, upon hearing i am from israel the man proceeded to throw at me  the following terms


Hey Star, when i was still working in the Netherlands , I met this sick liberal who wanted to "nuke Israel", (thats what he said). To him Israel was the incarnation of evil. 


Yeah liberals hate Israel what do you expect?, Where you surprised at the reaction of the Swiss couple? I wonder if he was as ademant about  the 100.000 africans who enter chattel slavery every yeat in Sudan (oh wait they are Christians/Aneist so they dont count).


Star:settlers , occupation, etc etc, the horrible wall , the horrible extremists, the poor poor palestinians, stealing land, occupying etc etcStar


In 1850 Isreal was uninhabitat and barren, the migration of jews (who bought the land legally) up till 1920, and consequent following economic growth, also ignited immigration of arabs from neighbouring countries towards palastine:


Conclusion:


1) Arabs who live in Palastine where immigrants not native inhabitants


2) Most Jews are (ancestors of) immigrants too (set aside biblical claims of ownership) but for some reason the liberals in the West think this jewish immigration was a bad thing.


Double standard?


 

The text you are quoting:

Star:I met a swiss couple in the woods today, upon hearing i am from israel the man proceeded to throw at me  the following terms


Hey Star, when i was still working in the Netherlands , I met this sick liberal who wanted to "nuke Israel", (thats what he said). To him Israel was the incarnation of evil. 


Yeah liberals hate Israel what do you expect?, Where you surprised at the reaction of the Swiss couple? I wonder if he was as ademant about  the 100.000 africans who enter chattel slavery every yeat in Sudan (oh wait they are Christians/Aneist so they dont count).


Star:settlers , occupation, etc etc, the horrible wall , the horrible extremists, the poor poor palestinians, stealing land, occupying etc etcStar


In 1850 Isreal was uninhabitat and barren, the migration of jews (who bought the land legally) up till 1920, and consequent following economic growth, also ignited immigration of arabs from neighbouring countries towards palastine:


Conclusion:


1) Arabs who live in Palastine where immigrants not native inhabitants


2) Most Jews are (ancestors of) immigrants too (set aside biblical claims of ownership) but for some reason the liberals in the West think this jewish immigration was a bad thing.


Double standard?


 


Jacob B, Feb 20, 2011 @ 15:57
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 21

It's true that merely wishing for peace will not make it so.  On the other hand,it's certainly true that if everyone believes the world is a dark and scary place where people hate each other and are trying to destroy each other with one lie or conspiracy after another, then the world WILL be as so.

People have to work to create the reality they wish to see.  It should be done with optimism, but never blindly.  I never suggested that Israel should dismantle its army and open its borders. (Only that it should HAVE borders.)

Taking the stance that "they hate us, so we shouldn't talk to them" only serves to perpetuate the existing situation.


Feb 20, 11 00:05

This is in accord with what Ret. Admiral and former head of Shin Bet Avi Ayalon is saying in the statement I cited above as well as in his speech before J Street in Chicago, Illinois last year.


Of course it is easy to attempt to redicule a civilian's point of view, but to counter Ayalon's arguments -- which are backed up by over three decades' experience in the field -- is another. 


Both Sadat and Rabin were assassinated by extremists from their own countries.  Politicians on all sides often benefit from such situations. While they may feel some sympathy for the dead and wounded soldiers and civilians, they hardly experience the horror and consequences of war up close and personal.


This is often why it takes soldier-statesmen to move the situation forward toward ending conflict.  They are people who deal with "the enemy" on a day-to-day basis.

The text you are quoting:

This is in accord with what Ret. Admiral and former head of Shin Bet Avi Ayalon is saying in the statement I cited above as well as in his speech before J Street in Chicago, Illinois last year.


Of course it is easy to attempt to redicule a civilian's point of view, but to counter Ayalon's arguments -- which are backed up by over three decades' experience in the field -- is another. 


Both Sadat and Rabin were assassinated by extremists from their own countries.  Politicians on all sides often benefit from such situations. While they may feel some sympathy for the dead and wounded soldiers and civilians, they hardly experience the horror and consequences of war up close and personal.


This is often why it takes soldier-statesmen to move the situation forward toward ending conflict.  They are people who deal with "the enemy" on a day-to-day basis.


Translator, Feb 20, 2011 @ 16:01
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Post 22

2nd para. correction:  "attempt to ridicule"

The text you are quoting:

2nd para. correction:  "attempt to ridicule"


Translator, Feb 20, 2011 @ 16:20
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Post 23

Translator: to say that a person does not realistically understand the high stakes in the region because he or she was not born there is not particuarly true or helpful.


True, I agree, It is the same with  some people always mentioning  their grandfather faught the nazis and because of that they themselves cannot have a race fettish.


Mmmmm,



The text you are quoting:

Translator: to say that a person does not realistically understand the high stakes in the region because he or she was not born there is not particuarly true or helpful.


True, I agree, It is the same with  some people always mentioning  their grandfather faught the nazis and because of that they themselves cannot have a race fettish.


Mmmmm,




Jacob B, Feb 20, 2011 @ 16:18
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 24

Star:I met a swiss couple in the woods today, upon hearing i am from israel the man proceeded to throw at me  the following terms

Hey Star, when i was still working in the Netherlands , I met this sick liberal who wanted to "nuke Israel", (thats what he said). To him Israel was the incarnation of evil. 

Yeah liberals hate Israel what do you expect?, Where you surprised at the reaction of the Swiss couple? I wonder if he was as ademant about  the 100.000 africans who enter chattel slavery every yeat in Sudan (oh wait they are Christians/Aneist so they dont count).

Star:settlers , occupation, etc etc, the horrible wall , the horrible extremists, the poor poor palestinians, stealing land, occupying etc etcStar

In 1850 Isreal was uninhabitat and barren, the migration of jews (who bought the land legally) up till 1920, and consequent following economic growth, also ignited immigration of arabs from neighbouring countries towards palastine:

Conclusion:

1) Arabs who live in Palastine where immigrants not native inhabitants

2) Most Jews are (ancestors of) immigrants too (set aside biblical claims of ownership) but for some reason the liberals in the West think this jewish immigration was a bad thing.

Double standard?

 


Feb 20, 11 15:57

Let's leave aside for the moment your gross exaggerations on what liberals believe about Israel -- not to mention the large subset of liberals made up of Jews from the diaspora who don't agree with your views on Israel and how the peace process should be moved forward (um, not total and unconditional surrender by the Palestinians).


If Israeli Jews disagree with your extreme views, are they traitors?

The text you are quoting:

Let's leave aside for the moment your gross exaggerations on what liberals believe about Israel -- not to mention the large subset of liberals made up of Jews from the diaspora who don't agree with your views on Israel and how the peace process should be moved forward (um, not total and unconditional surrender by the Palestinians).


If Israeli Jews disagree with your extreme views, are they traitors?


Translator, Feb 20, 2011 @ 16:23
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 25

Translator: to say that a person does not realistically understand the high stakes in the region because he or she was not born there is not particuarly true or helpful.

True, I agree, It is the same with  some people always mentioning  their grandfather faught the nazis and because of that they themselves cannot have a race fettish.

Mmmmm,



Feb 20, 11 16:18

My grandfather fought the Nazis AND was in the IDF for what it's worth :P


The people living amidst a conflict are sometimes too close to it to make the best decisions.  While people have to solve their own problems with their own domestic expertise, some outside perspective is sometimes helpful.


The large Jewish and Arab/Muslim communities in Europe and North America are uniquely positioned, as interested, but somewhat distanced parties, to play a positive role.  Unfortunately most groups which are actively involved in middle east politics in Europe/North America spend most of their time criticizing or deligitimizing "the other side" rather than trying to contribute in a productive way.

The text you are quoting:

My grandfather fought the Nazis AND was in the IDF for what it's worth :P


The people living amidst a conflict are sometimes too close to it to make the best decisions.  While people have to solve their own problems with their own domestic expertise, some outside perspective is sometimes helpful.


The large Jewish and Arab/Muslim communities in Europe and North America are uniquely positioned, as interested, but somewhat distanced parties, to play a positive role.  Unfortunately most groups which are actively involved in middle east politics in Europe/North America spend most of their time criticizing or deligitimizing "the other side" rather than trying to contribute in a productive way.


jbendavi, Feb 20, 2011 @ 16:33
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Post 26

Translator: to say that a person does not realistically understand the high stakes in the region because he or she was not born there is not particuarly true or helpful.

True, I agree, It is the same with  some people always mentioning  their grandfather faught the nazis and because of that they themselves cannot have a race fettish.

Mmmmm,



Feb 20, 11 16:18

I stand on the shoulders of giants.  I have fought racism, facism, and sexism (and many other "isms") through my work with the US federal government as well as my volunteer work here Switzerland.  


Some people believe that those "isms" don't exist anymore.  That would be a great jedi mind-trick indeed.  I remember many people saying the same sort of thing when I was working to pass legislationn to support the Dayton Peace Accords.  Some people just did care or believe that "ethnic cleansing" was going on.  In fact, many of the Jewish, black and liberal members of the US Congress fought against this stance -- that we just had some kind of "fetish" and that genocide was not really  happening.


We have a lot of work to continue to do in the United States of America as well as here in Switzerland.  You may believe that confronting racism, facsism and sexism, and homophobia as fetishes. I, and many others, consider it social justice. 

The text you are quoting:

I stand on the shoulders of giants.  I have fought racism, facism, and sexism (and many other "isms") through my work with the US federal government as well as my volunteer work here Switzerland.  


Some people believe that those "isms" don't exist anymore.  That would be a great jedi mind-trick indeed.  I remember many people saying the same sort of thing when I was working to pass legislationn to support the Dayton Peace Accords.  Some people just did care or believe that "ethnic cleansing" was going on.  In fact, many of the Jewish, black and liberal members of the US Congress fought against this stance -- that we just had some kind of "fetish" and that genocide was not really  happening.


We have a lot of work to continue to do in the United States of America as well as here in Switzerland.  You may believe that confronting racism, facsism and sexism, and homophobia as fetishes. I, and many others, consider it social justice. 


Translator, Feb 20, 2011 @ 16:32
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Post 27

@jbendavi


My father fought against the racist US Army officers and got put in the stockade, and still had to fight the Nazis....Wink  He had to move north to vote when he came back to the States...


 

The text you are quoting:

@jbendavi


My father fought against the racist US Army officers and got put in the stockade, and still had to fight the Nazis....Wink  He had to move north to vote when he came back to the States...


 


Translator, Feb 20, 2011 @ 16:46
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 28

Translator: to say that a person does not realistically understand the high stakes in the region because he or she was not born there is not particuarly true or helpful.

True, I agree, It is the same with  some people always mentioning  their grandfather faught the nazis and because of that they themselves cannot have a race fettish.

Mmmmm,



Feb 20, 11 16:18

It was my father, by the way.  My granfather died from lack of adequate medical care due to the racist and segregationist hospital policies.

The text you are quoting:

It was my father, by the way.  My granfather died from lack of adequate medical care due to the racist and segregationist hospital policies.


Translator, Feb 20, 2011 @ 16:49
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 29

Translator, I am still waiting for that day when you stop misreading my postings and your attempts at disinformation,


but lest break it down


Trans:"Let's leave aside for the moment your gross exaggerations on what liberals believe about Israel."


I am talking about my observation of liberals in the Netherlands and in the rest of Europe, so why are we talking about the US again? Is this a USA site? And I dont know how many European languages you speak, but it would require a fair amount to follow "who is saying what" on the various language specific broadcasts. Most Jews are not liberal, rather libertarian.


So I am not the one having a narrow view here.


"..not to mention the large subset of liberals made up of Jews .."


Your talking about the USA again? A Big majortity of jews in Antwerp vote "Vlaams Belang" and most jews in the Netherlands vote for Geert Wilders,...


Most prominent socialists are openly anti-jewish, including the widow of the late Willem Duisenberg (president of the late Dutch national bank) sick joking about getting 6 million autographs for some referenda to boycot Israeli products in supermarkets.


If Israeli Jews disagree with your extreme views, are they traitors?


Nice one: Its the same as "I am not a wifebeater,...So when did you stop beating your wife?" trick.


Where did you learn these Frankfurtur schule tactics?


 

The text you are quoting:

Translator, I am still waiting for that day when you stop misreading my postings and your attempts at disinformation,


but lest break it down


Trans:"Let's leave aside for the moment your gross exaggerations on what liberals believe about Israel."


I am talking about my observation of liberals in the Netherlands and in the rest of Europe, so why are we talking about the US again? Is this a USA site? And I dont know how many European languages you speak, but it would require a fair amount to follow "who is saying what" on the various language specific broadcasts. Most Jews are not liberal, rather libertarian.


So I am not the one having a narrow view here.


"..not to mention the large subset of liberals made up of Jews .."


Your talking about the USA again? A Big majortity of jews in Antwerp vote "Vlaams Belang" and most jews in the Netherlands vote for Geert Wilders,...


Most prominent socialists are openly anti-jewish, including the widow of the late Willem Duisenberg (president of the late Dutch national bank) sick joking about getting 6 million autographs for some referenda to boycot Israeli products in supermarkets.


If Israeli Jews disagree with your extreme views, are they traitors?


Nice one: Its the same as "I am not a wifebeater,...So when did you stop beating your wife?" trick.


Where did you learn these Frankfurtur schule tactics?


 


Jacob B, Feb 20, 2011 @ 16:35
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 30

jbendav:My grandfather fought the Nazis AND was in the IDF for what it's worth :P


Was absoluutly not talking about you, but thanks for the background info


jbendav:The large Jewish and Arab/Muslim communities in Europe and North America are uniquely positioned, as interested, but somewhat distanced parties, to play a positive role.


Excuse me, but did you hear what Bundes Chancelor Merkel, French President Sarkozy, Tonay Blair and current UK PM are saying about multiculturism"


"..Its dead..", "..utter failure..."


Those were their words not mine.

The text you are quoting:

jbendav:My grandfather fought the Nazis AND was in the IDF for what it's worth :P


Was absoluutly not talking about you, but thanks for the background info


jbendav:The large Jewish and Arab/Muslim communities in Europe and North America are uniquely positioned, as interested, but somewhat distanced parties, to play a positive role.


Excuse me, but did you hear what Bundes Chancelor Merkel, French President Sarkozy, Tonay Blair and current UK PM are saying about multiculturism"


"..Its dead..", "..utter failure..."


Those were their words not mine.


Jacob B, Feb 20, 2011 @ 16:55
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 31

Translator, I am still waiting for that day when you stop misreading my postings and your attempts at disinformation,

but lest break it down

Trans:"Let's leave aside for the moment your gross exaggerations on what liberals believe about Israel."

I am talking about my observation of liberals in the Netherlands and in the rest of Europe, so why are we talking about the US again? Is this a USA site? And I dont know how many European languages you speak, but it would require a fair amount to follow "who is saying what" on the various language specific broadcasts. Most Jews are not liberal, rather libertarian.

So I am not the one having a narrow view here.

"..not to mention the large subset of liberals made up of Jews .."

Your talking about the USA again? A Big majortity of jews in Antwerp vote "Vlaams Belang" and most jews in the Netherlands vote for Geert Wilders,...

Most prominent socialists are openly anti-jewish, including the widow of the late Willem Duisenberg (president of the late Dutch national bank) sick joking about getting 6 million autographs for some referenda to boycot Israeli products in supermarkets.

If Israeli Jews disagree with your extreme views, are they traitors?

Nice one: Its the same as "I am not a wifebeater,...So when did you stop beating your wife?" trick.

Where did you learn these Frankfurtur schule tactics?

 


Feb 20, 11 16:35

Ah, thank you for the clarification.  I now understand that you are only referring to the Netherlands.  You never specified that.  This site is called Glocals -- so it is neither American, nor Dutch exclusively.  It is made up of many countries.


So we would have to consider the liberals of all the populations of Glocals members.


1)  I would like to know on what basis you claim that most  Jews (again of what country and/or countries) are libertarian;


2) Please cite your evidence for Jewish vote statistics for Antwerp and the Netherlands;


3) Please cite your evidence for claiming that most prominent socialists are anti-Jewish.  One example does not compute to the majority.


4) If Israelis do not agree with your views (however you classify them), are they naive, unrealistic, peace fetishers, etc.


Thank you for your evidence-based responses.


Please remember that when asked  to produce evidence for various claims I have provided such and in copious detail, with sources.

The text you are quoting:

Ah, thank you for the clarification.  I now understand that you are only referring to the Netherlands.  You never specified that.  This site is called Glocals -- so it is neither American, nor Dutch exclusively.  It is made up of many countries.


So we would have to consider the liberals of all the populations of Glocals members.


1)  I would like to know on what basis you claim that most  Jews (again of what country and/or countries) are libertarian;


2) Please cite your evidence for Jewish vote statistics for Antwerp and the Netherlands;


3) Please cite your evidence for claiming that most prominent socialists are anti-Jewish.  One example does not compute to the majority.


4) If Israelis do not agree with your views (however you classify them), are they naive, unrealistic, peace fetishers, etc.


Thank you for your evidence-based responses.


Please remember that when asked  to produce evidence for various claims I have provided such and in copious detail, with sources.


Translator, Feb 20, 2011 @ 16:59
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Post 32

Translator: It was my father, by the way. 


So it was your father not your grandfather, dont remember all the personal stuff of all the posters. But it is the same as liberals in the Netherlands ( and i lived there 18 odd years) before they start any discussion they point out the fact they have a family member who "resisted the nazis" and this somehow elevates them beyond questioning. Most Dutch people were just cowards, collaborating or surrendering at the drop of a hat.


 Translator:My granfather died from lack of adequate medical care due to the racist and segregationist hospital policies.


If true I feel very sorry for you, but how does hating individual sovereignty, hating free will, juding people by their ethnicity, selling out to a party that loved slavery, secession and Jim Crow make any of this better?


Hate is a bad motivator, this old-skool republican guy understands it.


 

The text you are quoting:

Translator: It was my father, by the way. 


So it was your father not your grandfather, dont remember all the personal stuff of all the posters. But it is the same as liberals in the Netherlands ( and i lived there 18 odd years) before they start any discussion they point out the fact they have a family member who "resisted the nazis" and this somehow elevates them beyond questioning. Most Dutch people were just cowards, collaborating or surrendering at the drop of a hat.


 Translator:My granfather died from lack of adequate medical care due to the racist and segregationist hospital policies.


If true I feel very sorry for you, but how does hating individual sovereignty, hating free will, juding people by their ethnicity, selling out to a party that loved slavery, secession and Jim Crow make any of this better?


Hate is a bad motivator, this old-skool republican guy understands it.


 


Jacob B, Feb 20, 2011 @ 17:03
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Post 33

Although this is truly off topic, you seem not to have read the evidence that Martin Luther King, Jr. wholly rejected the Republican party.  I'm sorry you might have missed that.  I can understand why Republicans want to claim him now.


As I wrote in that post some while back, the Reverend's father, Martin Sr. promised Jack Kennedy that if his son was freed from jail in Birmingham,  he would deliver black votes for him.   King clearly denounced the Republican Party and all its works.


Here is a quick reference.


==================
"The Republican Party geared its appeal and program to racism, reaction, and extremism. All people of goodwill viewed with alarm and concern the frenzied wedding at the Cow Palace of the KKK with the radical right. The "best man" at this ceremony was a senator whose voting record, philosophy, and program were anathema to all the hard-won achievements of the past decade.

"It was both unfortunate and disastrous that the Republican Party nominated Barry Goldwater as its candidate for President of the United States. In foreign policy Mr. Goldwater advocated a narrow nationalism, a crippling isolationism, and a trigger-happy attitude that could plunge the whole world into the dark abyss of annihilation. On social and economic issues, Mr. Goldwater represented an unrealistic conservatism that was totally out of touch with the realities of the twentieth century. The issue of poverty compelled the attention of all citizens of our country. Senator Goldwater had neither the concern nor the comprehension necessary to grapple with this problem of poverty in the fashion that the historical moment dictated. On the urgent issue of civil rights, Senator Goldwater represented a philosophy that was morally indefensible and socially suicidal."



- MLK Jr, The Autobiography of Martin Luther King, Jr



http://www.stanford.edu/group/King/publi…


Perhaps it is better to  get back to the topic of the thread.

The text you are quoting:

Although this is truly off topic, you seem not to have read the evidence that Martin Luther King, Jr. wholly rejected the Republican party.  I'm sorry you might have missed that.  I can understand why Republicans want to claim him now.


As I wrote in that post some while back, the Reverend's father, Martin Sr. promised Jack Kennedy that if his son was freed from jail in Birmingham,  he would deliver black votes for him.   King clearly denounced the Republican Party and all its works.


Here is a quick reference.


==================
"The Republican Party geared its appeal and program to racism, reaction, and extremism. All people of goodwill viewed with alarm and concern the frenzied wedding at the Cow Palace of the KKK with the radical right. The "best man" at this ceremony was a senator whose voting record, philosophy, and program were anathema to all the hard-won achievements of the past decade.

"It was both unfortunate and disastrous that the Republican Party nominated Barry Goldwater as its candidate for President of the United States. In foreign policy Mr. Goldwater advocated a narrow nationalism, a crippling isolationism, and a trigger-happy attitude that could plunge the whole world into the dark abyss of annihilation. On social and economic issues, Mr. Goldwater represented an unrealistic conservatism that was totally out of touch with the realities of the twentieth century. The issue of poverty compelled the attention of all citizens of our country. Senator Goldwater had neither the concern nor the comprehension necessary to grapple with this problem of poverty in the fashion that the historical moment dictated. On the urgent issue of civil rights, Senator Goldwater represented a philosophy that was morally indefensible and socially suicidal."



- MLK Jr, The Autobiography of Martin Luther King, Jr



http://www.stanford.edu/group/King/publi…


Perhaps it is better to  get back to the topic of the thread.


Translator, Feb 20, 2011 @ 17:24
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Post 34

Translation:You never specified that. 


I did , i specified "place of work", aka Europe.


This site is called Glocals -- so it is neither American, nor Dutch exclusively.


99.9% of It is European, and last time I looked, Netherlands was in Europe, the USA was not.


Translator(1): produce evidence for various claims I have provided such and in copious detail, with sources.


Translator(2):"A large segment of the liberal population is jewish"


You do post a lot of links, not always relevant.  and  thanks for the link providing the proof about European Jews being largely liberal....Oh wait..you didnt provide that link,....


Translator:You may believe that confronting racism, facsism and sexism, and homophobia as fetishes.


Nice words, my personal eperience with liberals claiming to fight injustice is wanting me (colored people like me) to be dependent on their "services". ANd if your dear to have the gall to be selfsufficient you will see how racist a liberal can get , for IF one does not choose to sell out for a nice cozy government job, set asides, special treatment or what not.


It is funny how you fight US injustice from Geneva (say what?) or that we Europeans/Swiss need a US citizen  to teach them how to be more tolerant. Low taxes you enjoy from the from the (racist?) Swiss have nothing to do with it, I am sure.


 


 


 

The text you are quoting:

Translation:You never specified that. 


I did , i specified "place of work", aka Europe.


This site is called Glocals -- so it is neither American, nor Dutch exclusively.


99.9% of It is European, and last time I looked, Netherlands was in Europe, the USA was not.


Translator(1): produce evidence for various claims I have provided such and in copious detail, with sources.


Translator(2):"A large segment of the liberal population is jewish"


You do post a lot of links, not always relevant.  and  thanks for the link providing the proof about European Jews being largely liberal....Oh wait..you didnt provide that link,....


Translator:You may believe that confronting racism, facsism and sexism, and homophobia as fetishes.


Nice words, my personal eperience with liberals claiming to fight injustice is wanting me (colored people like me) to be dependent on their "services". ANd if your dear to have the gall to be selfsufficient you will see how racist a liberal can get , for IF one does not choose to sell out for a nice cozy government job, set asides, special treatment or what not.


It is funny how you fight US injustice from Geneva (say what?) or that we Europeans/Swiss need a US citizen  to teach them how to be more tolerant. Low taxes you enjoy from the from the (racist?) Swiss have nothing to do with it, I am sure.


 


 


 


Jacob B, Feb 20, 2011 @ 17:13
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 35

from Frances Rice, Ms. Rice is chairman of the National Black Republican Association (NBRA) and may be contacted at www.NBRA.info.


http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=16500


It should come as no surprise that Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was a Republican. In that era, almost all black Americans were Republicans. Why? From its founding in 1854 as the anti-slavery party until today, the Republican Party has championed freedom and civil rights for blacks. And as one pundit so succinctly stated, the Democrat Party is as it always has been, the party of the four S's: slavery, secession, segregation and now socialism.

It was the Democrats who fought to keep blacks in slavery and passed the discriminatory Black Codes and Jim Crow laws. The Democrats started the Ku Klux Klan to lynch and terrorize blacks. The Democrats fought to prevent the passage of every civil rights law beginning with the civil rights laws of the 1860s, and continuing with the civil rights laws of the 1950s and 1960s.

The text you are quoting:

from Frances Rice, Ms. Rice is chairman of the National Black Republican Association (NBRA) and may be contacted at www.NBRA.info.


http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=16500


It should come as no surprise that Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was a Republican. In that era, almost all black Americans were Republicans. Why? From its founding in 1854 as the anti-slavery party until today, the Republican Party has championed freedom and civil rights for blacks. And as one pundit so succinctly stated, the Democrat Party is as it always has been, the party of the four S's: slavery, secession, segregation and now socialism.

It was the Democrats who fought to keep blacks in slavery and passed the discriminatory Black Codes and Jim Crow laws. The Democrats started the Ku Klux Klan to lynch and terrorize blacks. The Democrats fought to prevent the passage of every civil rights law beginning with the civil rights laws of the 1860s, and continuing with the civil rights laws of the 1950s and 1960s.


Jacob B, Feb 20, 2011 @ 17:38
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 36

But to get this thread back on topic, I looked back to the original post.  I would like to read the article to which Star was referring.  I was unable to find it.  I was particularly interested because I am wonder who is considered to be the secular head of the opposition?  El Baradei?  Someone else?  If possible, I would like to read the article  upon which this thread -- which has spooled out of control -- was based.


Thanks.

The text you are quoting:

But to get this thread back on topic, I looked back to the original post.  I would like to read the article to which Star was referring.  I was unable to find it.  I was particularly interested because I am wonder who is considered to be the secular head of the opposition?  El Baradei?  Someone else?  If possible, I would like to read the article  upon which this thread -- which has spooled out of control -- was based.


Thanks.


Translator, Feb 20, 2011 @ 17:35
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 37

from Frances Rice, Ms. Rice is chairman of the National Black Republican Association (NBRA) and may be contacted at www.NBRA.info.

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=16500

It should come as no surprise that Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was a Republican. In that era, almost all black Americans were Republicans. Why? From its founding in 1854 as the anti-slavery party until today, the Republican Party has championed freedom and civil rights for blacks. And as one pundit so succinctly stated, the Democrat Party is as it always has been, the party of the four S's: slavery, secession, segregation and now socialism.

It was the Democrats who fought to keep blacks in slavery and passed the discriminatory Black Codes and Jim Crow laws. The Democrats started the Ku Klux Klan to lynch and terrorize blacks. The Democrats fought to prevent the passage of every civil rights law beginning with the civil rights laws of the 1860s, and continuing with the civil rights laws of the 1950s and 1960s.


Feb 20, 11 17:38

Those references are only correct up to the passage of the landmark civil and voting rights acts legislative battles of 1962-1965.  As the result of 2 successive Democratic presidents fighting for black civil rights, black voters moved wholesale to the Democratic party in the mid- to late 1960s.


She knows that King rejected Goldwater, the Republican party candidate who ran against Lyndon Johnson, who successfully fought (along with old-school Republicans) to pass key civil rights legislation.


The old-school Republicans were more libertarian, anti-slavery, and pro-environment.  All that changed after the passage of civil rights and voting rights. Today's Republican party has opposed every major civil rights bill the late 1960s.


In fact, King in one of his final speeches (you can find it at the site above) opposed America's imperialistic wars and deeply opposed the capitalist system.  King believed the poor of America should have a guaranteed income.  This is one reason that he and Malcolm X reached a rapproachment before they both were gunned down.


Now, back to the topic of the thread.

The text you are quoting:

Those references are only correct up to the passage of the landmark civil and voting rights acts legislative battles of 1962-1965.  As the result of 2 successive Democratic presidents fighting for black civil rights, black voters moved wholesale to the Democratic party in the mid- to late 1960s.


She knows that King rejected Goldwater, the Republican party candidate who ran against Lyndon Johnson, who successfully fought (along with old-school Republicans) to pass key civil rights legislation.


The old-school Republicans were more libertarian, anti-slavery, and pro-environment.  All that changed after the passage of civil rights and voting rights. Today's Republican party has opposed every major civil rights bill the late 1960s.


In fact, King in one of his final speeches (you can find it at the site above) opposed America's imperialistic wars and deeply opposed the capitalist system.  King believed the poor of America should have a guaranteed income.  This is one reason that he and Malcolm X reached a rapproachment before they both were gunned down.


Now, back to the topic of the thread.


Translator, Feb 20, 2011 @ 18:00
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 38

Translation:You never specified that. 

I did , i specified "place of work", aka Europe.

This site is called Glocals -- so it is neither American, nor Dutch exclusively.

99.9% of It is European, and last time I looked, Netherlands was in Europe, the USA was not.

Translator(1): produce evidence for various claims I have provided such and in copious detail, with sources.

Translator(2):"A large segment of the liberal population is jewish"

You do post a lot of links, not always relevant.  and  thanks for the link providing the proof about European Jews being largely liberal....Oh wait..you didnt provide that link,....

Translator:You may believe that confronting racism, facsism and sexism, and homophobia as fetishes.

Nice words, my personal eperience with liberals claiming to fight injustice is wanting me (colored people like me) to be dependent on their "services". ANd if your dear to have the gall to be selfsufficient you will see how racist a liberal can get , for IF one does not choose to sell out for a nice cozy government job, set asides, special treatment or what not.

It is funny how you fight US injustice from Geneva (say what?) or that we Europeans/Swiss need a US citizen  to teach them how to be more tolerant. Low taxes you enjoy from the from the (racist?) Swiss have nothing to do with it, I am sure.

 

 

 


Feb 20, 11 17:13

Yes, believe it or not, one can write one's senators and representatives from abroad!  It's called being an ex-patriate!  There is even a group called Republicans Abroad.  There are lots of political activities around, although you may not be aware of them. 


In addition, I volunteer with Swiss groups here.  I never said I teach them anything.  I learn what is going on and sometimes stuff envelopes or do what is needed to assist in learning about the political process.


Perhaps you didn't know that Geneva allows expatriates who have been here for awhile to vote on certain cantonal issues.  I do all the other good liberal things like recycle and I have even posted a Glocals event to go to hear Christoph Blocher, for which I got lots of really nice messages from Glocalers.


I believe it's important to be an active citizen and a responsible resident of the country in which I live.  I don't just benefit from low taxes, nice spas and trams. I also get involved in many community events.  Do you?

The text you are quoting:

Yes, believe it or not, one can write one's senators and representatives from abroad!  It's called being an ex-patriate!  There is even a group called Republicans Abroad.  There are lots of political activities around, although you may not be aware of them. 


In addition, I volunteer with Swiss groups here.  I never said I teach them anything.  I learn what is going on and sometimes stuff envelopes or do what is needed to assist in learning about the political process.


Perhaps you didn't know that Geneva allows expatriates who have been here for awhile to vote on certain cantonal issues.  I do all the other good liberal things like recycle and I have even posted a Glocals event to go to hear Christoph Blocher, for which I got lots of really nice messages from Glocalers.


I believe it's important to be an active citizen and a responsible resident of the country in which I live.  I don't just benefit from low taxes, nice spas and trams. I also get involved in many community events.  Do you?


Translator, Feb 20, 2011 @ 18:10
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 39

Now, back to the thread.


I would like to know whether anyone has seen any statements from El Baradei or other --- non-Muslim brotherhood -- statements about the Camp David Accords since Mubarak's departure.  I would be grateful if someone could post the link in whatever language.

The text you are quoting:

Now, back to the thread.


I would like to know whether anyone has seen any statements from El Baradei or other --- non-Muslim brotherhood -- statements about the Camp David Accords since Mubarak's departure.  I would be grateful if someone could post the link in whatever language.


Translator, Feb 20, 2011 @ 18:18
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 40

The old-school Republicans were more libertarian, anti-slavery,


You finnaly actually read the words i wrote, "old skool" yes, because neocons are Straussians, a better name would be "democrats 1.5". or maybe "wannebee" democrats.


Translator:In foreign policy Mr. Goldwater advocated a narrow nationalism, a crippling isolationism, 


And I hear this from someone who enjoys living in a NEUTRAL/non interventionist country called Switzerland. Typical of our liberal establishment, some people are just more equal then others.


Translator: I learn what is going on and sometimes stuff envelopes or do what is needed to assist in learning about the political process.


groups? Socialist party?


Translation:Today's Republican party has opposed every major civil rights bill the late 1960s.


That is a blatent lie, what reblicans do appose is socialism being sold as "rights". Redistribution is not a "right". Its called common thievery.   I have a little problem selling out to poverty pimps, for a free ride over the backs of someone else, I pick my own cotton, I dont ask anyone to do it for me,..., and most importantly... I KEEP IT! 


 

The text you are quoting:

The old-school Republicans were more libertarian, anti-slavery,


You finnaly actually read the words i wrote, "old skool" yes, because neocons are Straussians, a better name would be "democrats 1.5". or maybe "wannebee" democrats.


Translator:In foreign policy Mr. Goldwater advocated a narrow nationalism, a crippling isolationism, 


And I hear this from someone who enjoys living in a NEUTRAL/non interventionist country called Switzerland. Typical of our liberal establishment, some people are just more equal then others.


Translator: I learn what is going on and sometimes stuff envelopes or do what is needed to assist in learning about the political process.


groups? Socialist party?


Translation:Today's Republican party has opposed every major civil rights bill the late 1960s.


That is a blatent lie, what reblicans do appose is socialism being sold as "rights". Redistribution is not a "right". Its called common thievery.   I have a little problem selling out to poverty pimps, for a free ride over the backs of someone else, I pick my own cotton, I dont ask anyone to do it for me,..., and most importantly... I KEEP IT! 


 


Jacob B, Feb 20, 2011 @ 18:26
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 41

Translator: I don't just benefit from low taxes, nice spas and trams. I also get involved in many community events.  Do you?


Off topic,my work and inventions contribute to the overal technological advancement of society. As apposed to someone having a nice and easy government job payed for by people who actually create and produce.


Back on topic: My point is that you do oppose  every principle  that has made Switzerland into a very rich country,...,It is so funny  how liberals live in the same countries whos political system or culture they totally dispise, republicans and libertarians would love direct democracy,..., liberals really hate that idea of "mob rule"

The text you are quoting:

Translator: I don't just benefit from low taxes, nice spas and trams. I also get involved in many community events.  Do you?


Off topic,my work and inventions contribute to the overal technological advancement of society. As apposed to someone having a nice and easy government job payed for by people who actually create and produce.


Back on topic: My point is that you do oppose  every principle  that has made Switzerland into a very rich country,...,It is so funny  how liberals live in the same countries whos political system or culture they totally dispise, republicans and libertarians would love direct democracy,..., liberals really hate that idea of "mob rule"


Jacob B, Feb 20, 2011 @ 18:45
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 42

Translator: In fact, King in one of his final speeches (you can find it at the site above) opposed America's imperialistic wars.


Yeah, but then we get called (your quote)"dangerous isolationist" by liberals if we do oppose foreign entanglements...LOL


Translator:and deeply opposed the capitalist system. 


Can I sing "we love Karl Marx" now?

The text you are quoting:

Translator: In fact, King in one of his final speeches (you can find it at the site above) opposed America's imperialistic wars.


Yeah, but then we get called (your quote)"dangerous isolationist" by liberals if we do oppose foreign entanglements...LOL


Translator:and deeply opposed the capitalist system. 


Can I sing "we love Karl Marx" now?


Jacob B, Feb 20, 2011 @ 18:55
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 43

"Translator:In foreign policy Mr. Goldwater advocated a narrow nationalism, a crippling isolationism, 


And I hear this from someone who enjoys living in a NEUTRAL/non interventionist country called Switzerland. Typical of our liberal establishment, some people are just more equal then others."


That quote about Goldwater was from Dr. King's papers, not mine. That is why I provided the link.


People who have never worked for a federal government have absolutely no idea of the level of difficulty and skill involved, not to mention the people one has to deal with on a daily basis.  Of course, if business were so great and efficient, particularly the financial sector, they along with their government cronies, wouldn't have managed to do as much damage to the world economy as was done during the past several years.


Of course, businesspeople, at least in the United States, and from most of the European Union from my experience with international organizations has shown, benefit and in fact, live off of contracts from governments and international organizations.  Halliburton is only one example. 


Here is just one example:


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/20/us/politics/20data.html?ref=us


Most of who have served in government have seen business corruption on an unbelieveable scale.  The business and government more often than not work hand in hand to bilk taxpayers whether in the United States or in the European Union. 


Of course, I prefer to discuss the topic of the thread. 


That's ok, it's Sunday.


Good luck with those inventions, though.  Like many inventors, you may end up selling it to some government or other.  And someone may buy it, whether it functions or not.

The text you are quoting:

"Translator:In foreign policy Mr. Goldwater advocated a narrow nationalism, a crippling isolationism, 


And I hear this from someone who enjoys living in a NEUTRAL/non interventionist country called Switzerland. Typical of our liberal establishment, some people are just more equal then others."


That quote about Goldwater was from Dr. King's papers, not mine. That is why I provided the link.


People who have never worked for a federal government have absolutely no idea of the level of difficulty and skill involved, not to mention the people one has to deal with on a daily basis.  Of course, if business were so great and efficient, particularly the financial sector, they along with their government cronies, wouldn't have managed to do as much damage to the world economy as was done during the past several years.


Of course, businesspeople, at least in the United States, and from most of the European Union from my experience with international organizations has shown, benefit and in fact, live off of contracts from governments and international organizations.  Halliburton is only one example. 


Here is just one example:


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/20/us/politics/20data.html?ref=us


Most of who have served in government have seen business corruption on an unbelieveable scale.  The business and government more often than not work hand in hand to bilk taxpayers whether in the United States or in the European Union. 


Of course, I prefer to discuss the topic of the thread. 


That's ok, it's Sunday.


Good luck with those inventions, though.  Like many inventors, you may end up selling it to some government or other.  And someone may buy it, whether it functions or not.


Translator, Feb 20, 2011 @ 19:03
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 44

That quote about Goldwater was from Dr. King's papers, not mine. That is why I provided the link.


typical MO: You agreed with it, thats why you post that perticular segment, case in point, in previous post you also went in depth about Swiss contribution to West African slave trade, the article ending up in how current day Swiss citizens must pay a shitload of "wiedergutmachung" cash. ..  Probably some NGO (probable the one you work for?).


It fitts the liberal MO of "blame whitey".


 


Translator:If business were so great and efficient, particularly the financial sector


How are you not a sociaist? The New York Fed enacted laws that would punish every bank (400K per intance) if it denied a borrower a loan for the following reasons:, If said borrower was insolvent, had a bad credit record, was part of a disenfranchised minority,..., etc etc.  Civil servants are all "hard at work" wrecking every elements of free society.


Mises institute video


http://mises.org/mediaPlayer.aspx?MediaId=5702/How-Mainstream-Economics-Miseducates-About-Money-and-the-Fed


How 'Mainstream' Economics Miseducates About Money and the Fed

 

The text you are quoting:

That quote about Goldwater was from Dr. King's papers, not mine. That is why I provided the link.


typical MO: You agreed with it, thats why you post that perticular segment, case in point, in previous post you also went in depth about Swiss contribution to West African slave trade, the article ending up in how current day Swiss citizens must pay a shitload of "wiedergutmachung" cash. ..  Probably some NGO (probable the one you work for?).


It fitts the liberal MO of "blame whitey".


 


Translator:If business were so great and efficient, particularly the financial sector


How are you not a sociaist? The New York Fed enacted laws that would punish every bank (400K per intance) if it denied a borrower a loan for the following reasons:, If said borrower was insolvent, had a bad credit record, was part of a disenfranchised minority,..., etc etc.  Civil servants are all "hard at work" wrecking every elements of free society.


Mises institute video


http://mises.org/mediaPlayer.aspx?MediaId=5702/How-Mainstream-Economics-Miseducates-About-Money-and-the-Fed


How 'Mainstream' Economics Miseducates About Money and the Fed

 


Jacob B, Feb 20, 2011 @ 19:28
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 45

Of course, businesspeople, at least in the United States, and from most of the European Union from my experience with international organizations has shown, benefit and in fact, live off of contracts from governments and international organizations.


Fantastic, getting money from the middleclass and giving it to a couple of selected Mega Corperations. ...Capitalism liberal style....when big money and big government get together, you know exactly who is going to be f*-ed over.


Socialist dont want a free society of free men, they want to turn the human race into an anthill,  industrial/political elite at the top, the rest are worker ants.

The text you are quoting:

Of course, businesspeople, at least in the United States, and from most of the European Union from my experience with international organizations has shown, benefit and in fact, live off of contracts from governments and international organizations.


Fantastic, getting money from the middleclass and giving it to a couple of selected Mega Corperations. ...Capitalism liberal style....when big money and big government get together, you know exactly who is going to be f*-ed over.


Socialist dont want a free society of free men, they want to turn the human race into an anthill,  industrial/political elite at the top, the rest are worker ants.


Jacob B, Feb 20, 2011 @ 19:39
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 46

This is in accord with what Ret. Admiral and former head of Shin Bet Avi Ayalon is saying in the statement I cited above as well as in his speech before J Street in Chicago, Illinois last year.

Of course it is easy to attempt to redicule a civilian's point of view, but to counter Ayalon's arguments -- which are backed up by over three decades' experience in the field -- is another. 

Both Sadat and Rabin were assassinated by extremists from their own countries.  Politicians on all sides often benefit from such situations. While they may feel some sympathy for the dead and wounded soldiers and civilians, they hardly experience the horror and consequences of war up close and personal.

This is often why it takes soldier-statesmen to move the situation forward toward ending conflict.  They are people who deal with "the enemy" on a day-to-day basis.


Feb 20, 11 16:01

Regarding the attitude of civilian armchair generals, politicians and yes, liberals, regarding the GLORY of war: 


Dead is Dead: The Medic at Rest

By MARC LEVY: Marc Levy served with D 1/7 Cav as an infantry medic in Vietnam and Cambodia in 1970 http://counterpunch.org/levy02182011.html


."Twenty-five ago I sat in the main auditorium of New York’s 92nd Street Y. The splendidly wood-paneled hall with its comfortable plush chairs was filled to capacity by a crowd of well-heeled Upper East and West Siders. Gucci and Prada vied with flowing coats of mink and sable and the rustle of imported fabrics. The occasion? A poetry reading to honor Veterans Day. At the time the country was not at war, greed was fashionable, life was good, and tonight’s gathering would praise in noble rhymes soldiers’ who’d fought on distant shores for America’s liberty and freedom.


“The first reader,” said the moderator, “Is Jon Stallworthy.”


I looked about. Not many in the room seemed to recognize the name. The gentry quieted their small talk, further settled into their seats, nestled their hands onto their laps. Stallworthy, a trim and handsome man with sharp features and a stern expression, stepped to the stage, stood at the podium, then gently admonished the audience. Today, he said, was not a day for casual celebration or glib sentiments. Rather, Armistice Day, as it was first known, commemorated the millions who died in the Great War, which had ended on the eleventh hour of the eleventh month of 1918. And death in the mud-filled trenches, the rat-infested bunkers, in bomb-cratered no-mans-land, was not pleasant. Stallworthy thought it fitting to read from the poetry of Wilfred Owen, killed in action one week before wars end.


“I will begin with ‘Dulce Et Decorum Est,’ ” he said.


“Do you know this poem,” I whispered to friend seated next to me.


"No,” he replied.


“In a moment, everyone here will squirm in their seats.”
 He looked at me strangely. “How do you know that?”


“Trust me,” I said.


Stallworthy was no stranger to Owen, having written his biography and edited the definitive collection of his poems.  Unlike many well-intentioned academics, he knew how to read war poetry; how to inhabit each incendiary word, each startling stanza with sometimes sad and sometimes frightful but always energetic audacity. He calmly opened a well worn volume and began to read aloud:


        “Gas! Gas! Quick, boys!” An ecstasy of fumbling,
          Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
          But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
          And flound’ring like a man in fire or lime...”


The more Stallworthy evoked the dire attack, his voice and body seeming to ache with feeling, the more the audience shifted about, as if the spirit of the suffocating man, an emblem of agony, crawled and writhed before them.


       “If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
        Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
        Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
        Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues...


Several poems later, Stallworthy smartly closed the book, bowed his head to modest applause, then departed. Immediately, an audible surge of discomfort swept over the auditorium. Who was this impudent fellow to harm the holiday with talk of terror? What gave him the right to cast a pall on cheerful bustling New York, New York? The moderator, visibly shaken, introduced the next reader, who recited several popular war poems intent on duty, honor, country. He was well received".

The text you are quoting:

Regarding the attitude of civilian armchair generals, politicians and yes, liberals, regarding the GLORY of war: 


Dead is Dead: The Medic at Rest

By MARC LEVY: Marc Levy served with D 1/7 Cav as an infantry medic in Vietnam and Cambodia in 1970 http://counterpunch.org/levy02182011.html


."Twenty-five ago I sat in the main auditorium of New York’s 92nd Street Y. The splendidly wood-paneled hall with its comfortable plush chairs was filled to capacity by a crowd of well-heeled Upper East and West Siders. Gucci and Prada vied with flowing coats of mink and sable and the rustle of imported fabrics. The occasion? A poetry reading to honor Veterans Day. At the time the country was not at war, greed was fashionable, life was good, and tonight’s gathering would praise in noble rhymes soldiers’ who’d fought on distant shores for America’s liberty and freedom.


“The first reader,” said the moderator, “Is Jon Stallworthy.”


I looked about. Not many in the room seemed to recognize the name. The gentry quieted their small talk, further settled into their seats, nestled their hands onto their laps. Stallworthy, a trim and handsome man with sharp features and a stern expression, stepped to the stage, stood at the podium, then gently admonished the audience. Today, he said, was not a day for casual celebration or glib sentiments. Rather, Armistice Day, as it was first known, commemorated the millions who died in the Great War, which had ended on the eleventh hour of the eleventh month of 1918. And death in the mud-filled trenches, the rat-infested bunkers, in bomb-cratered no-mans-land, was not pleasant. Stallworthy thought it fitting to read from the poetry of Wilfred Owen, killed in action one week before wars end.


“I will begin with ‘Dulce Et Decorum Est,’ ” he said.


“Do you know this poem,” I whispered to friend seated next to me.


"No,” he replied.


“In a moment, everyone here will squirm in their seats.”
 He looked at me strangely. “How do you know that?”


“Trust me,” I said.


Stallworthy was no stranger to Owen, having written his biography and edited the definitive collection of his poems.  Unlike many well-intentioned academics, he knew how to read war poetry; how to inhabit each incendiary word, each startling stanza with sometimes sad and sometimes frightful but always energetic audacity. He calmly opened a well worn volume and began to read aloud:


        “Gas! Gas! Quick, boys!” An ecstasy of fumbling,
          Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
          But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
          And flound’ring like a man in fire or lime...”


The more Stallworthy evoked the dire attack, his voice and body seeming to ache with feeling, the more the audience shifted about, as if the spirit of the suffocating man, an emblem of agony, crawled and writhed before them.


       “If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
        Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
        Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
        Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues...


Several poems later, Stallworthy smartly closed the book, bowed his head to modest applause, then departed. Immediately, an audible surge of discomfort swept over the auditorium. Who was this impudent fellow to harm the holiday with talk of terror? What gave him the right to cast a pall on cheerful bustling New York, New York? The moderator, visibly shaken, introduced the next reader, who recited several popular war poems intent on duty, honor, country. He was well received".


Marksist, Feb 20, 2011 @ 19:33
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 47

Translator:Like many inventors, you may end up selling it to some government or other.  


We dont live in a socialistic society yet, but I know you are hard at work creating one,

The text you are quoting:

Translator:Like many inventors, you may end up selling it to some government or other.  


We dont live in a socialistic society yet, but I know you are hard at work creating one,


Jacob B, Feb 20, 2011 @ 19:43
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 48

@ Jacob B "Yeah, but then we get called (your quote)"dangerous isolationist" by liberals if we do oppose foreign entanglements...LOL


That's a fair enough comment, in a way.


However, it is striking to note that when I worked in the US Congress, the majority of the Republicans were for the first Iraq invasion and the majority of Republicans were against US deployment of troops in Bosnia to end the genocidal conflict that led to the deaths of many Dutch peacekeepers. 


In the first case, there was oil.  What did Secretary of State Baker say was the rationale for invading Iraq? "Jobs, jobs, jobs."


In the second, only souls of muslims and their opponents of ethnic cleansing.  Thankfully the liberals won the day in the second case.  The deployment of those troops succeeded where the UN and the unfortunate and brave Dutch soldiers could not.


Imperialistic wars are wars of conquest for land and/or resources, not engaging in conflict to prevent or end ethnic cleansing.


But going back to the topic, I hope someone finds the article to which Star made reference.  From what I can see, at least in Haaretz, most pundits, like everyone else are on a watching brief while the rest of the Middle East, particularly Libya, is exploding.


In fact, the danger to Israel, may come from some place else in the region while everyone is so focused on Egypt, particularly Syria or Yemen.


For example, in 1956 there was a crisis in Hungary as well as the Suez. 


 

The text you are quoting:

@ Jacob B "Yeah, but then we get called (your quote)"dangerous isolationist" by liberals if we do oppose foreign entanglements...LOL


That's a fair enough comment, in a way.


However, it is striking to note that when I worked in the US Congress, the majority of the Republicans were for the first Iraq invasion and the majority of Republicans were against US deployment of troops in Bosnia to end the genocidal conflict that led to the deaths of many Dutch peacekeepers. 


In the first case, there was oil.  What did Secretary of State Baker say was the rationale for invading Iraq? "Jobs, jobs, jobs."


In the second, only souls of muslims and their opponents of ethnic cleansing.  Thankfully the liberals won the day in the second case.  The deployment of those troops succeeded where the UN and the unfortunate and brave Dutch soldiers could not.


Imperialistic wars are wars of conquest for land and/or resources, not engaging in conflict to prevent or end ethnic cleansing.


But going back to the topic, I hope someone finds the article to which Star made reference.  From what I can see, at least in Haaretz, most pundits, like everyone else are on a watching brief while the rest of the Middle East, particularly Libya, is exploding.


In fact, the danger to Israel, may come from some place else in the region while everyone is so focused on Egypt, particularly Syria or Yemen.


For example, in 1956 there was a crisis in Hungary as well as the Suez. 


 


Translator, Feb 20, 2011 @ 19:25
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 49

Again to the armchair generals et. al.: "


“Oh bullshit,” said Dale, a high strung college senior. One hand on the steering wheel, the other clutching his cell phone, he scowled, “The whole thing was bullshit. Like what Pat Tillman’s brother said after the politicians spoke at the funeral. You know, ‘Thanks for your thoughts but Pat’s not with God. He’s fuckin’ dead.’ ”


"Recently the town where I live paid tribute to a soldier killed in Afghanistan. Local news reports stated he and a friend were attacked by a suicide bomber as they stood by a building. The KIA, recently married, was blown to bits. At the wake the casket was closed.


My partner Carla is friend of the widow. My friend Jim, an infantry Nam vet, lives four blocks from the church hosting the memorial service. The KIA, a stocky and good-looking young man was well known for his high spirits and generous nature. He was also the first combat death the town had taken in quite some time. Jim felt this explained the communal outpouring of sympathies, the parade that would follow the service, the abundant array of donated flowers, and, as we walked the tree lined streets, the wide yellow ribbons tied round every sycamore as far as one could see.


At the church, I was stunned by the sight of a dozen members of Rolling Thunder, the veterans and non-veterans biker club well known for its yearly motorcades in Washington, DC on Memorial Day. Commanding each level of the long granite stairs, arms folded across their chests, their faces were implacable. All mourners were compelled to pass this gauntlet before entering the nave.


Many vets have encountered attention seeking poseurs who spout tales of uncommon valor, sport rows of unearned combat ribbons. More often than not a few well put questions put the impostor to shame. I wondered which of these ardent patriots, their leather jackets adorned with military style pins and MIA/POW patches, had set or escaped an ambush, survived a rocket or mortar or ground attack? How many had seen the wounded, dead and dying up close and personal? Who among them had vivid war nightmares, heightened startle reflex,or suffered combats multi-curse of homicidal rage, depression, anxiety? ‘C’mon,’ I thought, ‘Which of you are the real deal, the genuine article, have the papers and scars and medals to prove it? Step up and show me. C’mon, show me what you got.’ But I did not speak so they did not hear me.


Dead is Dead: The Medic at Rest

By MARC LEVY http://counterpunch.org/levy02182011.html

The text you are quoting:

Again to the armchair generals et. al.: "


“Oh bullshit,” said Dale, a high strung college senior. One hand on the steering wheel, the other clutching his cell phone, he scowled, “The whole thing was bullshit. Like what Pat Tillman’s brother said after the politicians spoke at the funeral. You know, ‘Thanks for your thoughts but Pat’s not with God. He’s fuckin’ dead.’ ”


"Recently the town where I live paid tribute to a soldier killed in Afghanistan. Local news reports stated he and a friend were attacked by a suicide bomber as they stood by a building. The KIA, recently married, was blown to bits. At the wake the casket was closed.


My partner Carla is friend of the widow. My friend Jim, an infantry Nam vet, lives four blocks from the church hosting the memorial service. The KIA, a stocky and good-looking young man was well known for his high spirits and generous nature. He was also the first combat death the town had taken in quite some time. Jim felt this explained the communal outpouring of sympathies, the parade that would follow the service, the abundant array of donated flowers, and, as we walked the tree lined streets, the wide yellow ribbons tied round every sycamore as far as one could see.


At the church, I was stunned by the sight of a dozen members of Rolling Thunder, the veterans and non-veterans biker club well known for its yearly motorcades in Washington, DC on Memorial Day. Commanding each level of the long granite stairs, arms folded across their chests, their faces were implacable. All mourners were compelled to pass this gauntlet before entering the nave.


Many vets have encountered attention seeking poseurs who spout tales of uncommon valor, sport rows of unearned combat ribbons. More often than not a few well put questions put the impostor to shame. I wondered which of these ardent patriots, their leather jackets adorned with military style pins and MIA/POW patches, had set or escaped an ambush, survived a rocket or mortar or ground attack? How many had seen the wounded, dead and dying up close and personal? Who among them had vivid war nightmares, heightened startle reflex,or suffered combats multi-curse of homicidal rage, depression, anxiety? ‘C’mon,’ I thought, ‘Which of you are the real deal, the genuine article, have the papers and scars and medals to prove it? Step up and show me. C’mon, show me what you got.’ But I did not speak so they did not hear me.


Dead is Dead: The Medic at Rest

By MARC LEVY http://counterpunch.org/levy02182011.html


Marksist, Feb 20, 2011 @ 19:45
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 50

replies should be like twitter tweets, limited to say 250 characters or so,

The text you are quoting:

replies should be like twitter tweets, limited to say 250 characters or so,


Jacob B, Feb 20, 2011 @ 19:53
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 51

Is there a problem with the topic?  If you'd like to start a thread bashing socialists, go ahead.  This is not that thread. 


In the case of Switzerland and slavery, you asked for proof, I provided it.  I never said that I agreed with the idea of reparations. Whether or not  you like it, that was the case.  I can understand that it is difficult to deal with facts you don't like.


I have also noticed that you resort to name calling when you have no facts at hand.  Why is that?  At one point, it almost seemed as if there were two Jacobs --


Jacob B was definitely verging on abusive and resorted to name calling;


Jacob A then became all sweetness and light.  Your english spelling and syntax even improved and you began complimenting the site owners and so on.   It was almost as if someone else were posting for you.  But that wasn't the case, was it?


At any rate, I have been attempting to remain polite and answer your questions and contentions, however off-topic they were. 


What I did find interesting is that neither you nor Star could rebut any of the statements I put up from Israelis regarding the topic.  That is most revealing.


I realize, though, that it is generally an exercise in futility to attempt to stay on topic here.


 

The text you are quoting:

Is there a problem with the topic?  If you'd like to start a thread bashing socialists, go ahead.  This is not that thread. 


In the case of Switzerland and slavery, you asked for proof, I provided it.  I never said that I agreed with the idea of reparations. Whether or not  you like it, that was the case.  I can understand that it is difficult to deal with facts you don't like.


I have also noticed that you resort to name calling when you have no facts at hand.  Why is that?  At one point, it almost seemed as if there were two Jacobs --


Jacob B was definitely verging on abusive and resorted to name calling;


Jacob A then became all sweetness and light.  Your english spelling and syntax even improved and you began complimenting the site owners and so on.   It was almost as if someone else were posting for you.  But that wasn't the case, was it?


At any rate, I have been attempting to remain polite and answer your questions and contentions, however off-topic they were. 


What I did find interesting is that neither you nor Star could rebut any of the statements I put up from Israelis regarding the topic.  That is most revealing.


I realize, though, that it is generally an exercise in futility to attempt to stay on topic here.


 


Translator, Feb 20, 2011 @ 19:51
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 52

I would agree with that, or perhaps to 500, if they managed to stay on topic and away from insults.

The text you are quoting:

I would agree with that, or perhaps to 500, if they managed to stay on topic and away from insults.


Translator, Feb 20, 2011 @ 20:02
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 53

And again, I would hazard to guess that an immediate threat to Israel  during this year may arise from an Arab nation where the military does not have close ties to the United States or UK.

The text you are quoting:

And again, I would hazard to guess that an immediate threat to Israel  during this year may arise from an Arab nation where the military does not have close ties to the United States or UK.


Translator, Feb 20, 2011 @ 20:03
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 54

maybe 450, If the typical backhanded comments can be left out.  


"close ties"?  you mean: where the Junta is on the payroll of the US?  But didnt you just dislike the money being spent that way?,.., it is to keep some form of peace in the region though.

The text you are quoting:

maybe 450, If the typical backhanded comments can be left out.  


"close ties"?  you mean: where the Junta is on the payroll of the US?  But didnt you just dislike the money being spent that way?,.., it is to keep some form of peace in the region though.


Jacob B, Feb 20, 2011 @ 20:05
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 55

I have also noticed that you resort to name calling when you have no facts at hand.  Why is that?  At one point, it almost seemed as if there were two Jacobs -


An opinion found somewhere on a website is not fact, especially if the factfinding ends up in "gib us your money",


Is there a problem with the topic?  If you'd like to start a thread bashing socialists, go ahead.  This is not that thread. 


Excuse me, I am bashing no-one, but please stop spreading untruth and misinformation if your arguments are refuted.
The text you are quoting:

I have also noticed that you resort to name calling when you have no facts at hand.  Why is that?  At one point, it almost seemed as if there were two Jacobs -


An opinion found somewhere on a website is not fact, especially if the factfinding ends up in "gib us your money",


Is there a problem with the topic?  If you'd like to start a thread bashing socialists, go ahead.  This is not that thread. 


Excuse me, I am bashing no-one, but please stop spreading untruth and misinformation if your arguments are refuted.
Jacob B, Feb 20, 2011 @ 20:10
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 56

"Close ties" can mean a myriad of elements.  To work in federal politics is to be a pragmatist. A "cold peace" is better than a "hot war."  Many US politicians did not want US troops in Bosnia, but it was better than more peacekeepers dying. 


When you work in government, I guarantee you see 90% of what you don't like. 5% of what you can tolerate and maybe 5% of what you aim for.


Sometimes you need support a junta in order to get school lunches. It's sick, but that is the reality.


I am saying that there are countries where major Western intelligence and military services have no idea what the hell is really going on.  You who have studied physics and mathematics understand how easy it is to put together a dirty bomb. 


So sometimes  when Boeing wants to sell spare parts to Iran (years ago), the answer has to be no.  Big  business hates it, says the Europeans will get the contract but them's the breaks.

The text you are quoting:

"Close ties" can mean a myriad of elements.  To work in federal politics is to be a pragmatist. A "cold peace" is better than a "hot war."  Many US politicians did not want US troops in Bosnia, but it was better than more peacekeepers dying. 


When you work in government, I guarantee you see 90% of what you don't like. 5% of what you can tolerate and maybe 5% of what you aim for.


Sometimes you need support a junta in order to get school lunches. It's sick, but that is the reality.


I am saying that there are countries where major Western intelligence and military services have no idea what the hell is really going on.  You who have studied physics and mathematics understand how easy it is to put together a dirty bomb. 


So sometimes  when Boeing wants to sell spare parts to Iran (years ago), the answer has to be no.  Big  business hates it, says the Europeans will get the contract but them's the breaks.


Translator, Feb 20, 2011 @ 20:13
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 57

The twitter version:  1956 Suez and Hungarian crises are an historical example of how some opportunistic agents may take advantage of situation in Middle East  and Gulf to create havoc in some other region --- North Korea, for just one example.

The text you are quoting:

The twitter version:  1956 Suez and Hungarian crises are an historical example of how some opportunistic agents may take advantage of situation in Middle East  and Gulf to create havoc in some other region --- North Korea, for just one example.


Translator, Feb 20, 2011 @ 20:20
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 58

This goes to some military theories of how many and what kinds of wars/conflicts can be fought at the same time. While there are many articles about what is happening, mostly across north Africa, hardly any news on Syria, Jordan and Lebanon.


If Europe had some kind of real, comprehensive foreign policy and troops the situation would not be as precarious.

The text you are quoting:

This goes to some military theories of how many and what kinds of wars/conflicts can be fought at the same time. While there are many articles about what is happening, mostly across north Africa, hardly any news on Syria, Jordan and Lebanon.


If Europe had some kind of real, comprehensive foreign policy and troops the situation would not be as precarious.


Translator, Feb 20, 2011 @ 20:24
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 59

The point is that you hated Egypt (and ISreal) getting billions in aid as  this money could be spend wisely in the US. (your own words)


 You did not fully realize then, that this money was bribery for the Egyptians towards keeping the peace with Israel. 


"close ties" with 3rd world country dictatorships means "bribery".  Its that simple!


Dirty bombs have nothing to do with physics and mathematics, they have more to do with dynamite and some very low grade fission material. Selling spare parts (Boeing) to countries who call you "the great satan" is generally a bad idea. I am guessing these parts where not  civilian aircraft components.


 

The text you are quoting:

The point is that you hated Egypt (and ISreal) getting billions in aid as  this money could be spend wisely in the US. (your own words)


 You did not fully realize then, that this money was bribery for the Egyptians towards keeping the peace with Israel. 


"close ties" with 3rd world country dictatorships means "bribery".  Its that simple!


Dirty bombs have nothing to do with physics and mathematics, they have more to do with dynamite and some very low grade fission material. Selling spare parts (Boeing) to countries who call you "the great satan" is generally a bad idea. I am guessing these parts where not  civilian aircraft components.


 


Jacob B, Feb 20, 2011 @ 20:21
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 60

I have also noticed that you resort to name calling when you have no facts at hand.  Why is that?  At one point, it almost seemed as if there were two Jacobs -

An opinion found somewhere on a website is not fact, especially if the factfinding ends up in "gib us your money",

Is there a problem with the topic?  If you'd like to start a thread bashing socialists, go ahead.  This is not that thread. 

Excuse me, I am bashing no-one, but please stop spreading untruth and misinformation if your arguments are refuted.
Feb 20, 11 20:10

Are you referring to the Swiss involvement in slavery?  In this case, I am more than happy to find the information regarding Necker's involvement.


Please explain or cite where I have stated something untrue or misinformed someone. 

The text you are quoting:

Are you referring to the Swiss involvement in slavery?  In this case, I am more than happy to find the information regarding Necker's involvement.


Please explain or cite where I have stated something untrue or misinformed someone. 


Translator, Feb 20, 2011 @ 20:28
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 61

If Europe had some kind of real, comprehensive foreign policy and troops the situation would not be as precarious.


Funny how some think its ok to march an invasion force into other countries but think they themselves deserve freedom of such action,


 

The text you are quoting:

If Europe had some kind of real, comprehensive foreign policy and troops the situation would not be as precarious.


Funny how some think its ok to march an invasion force into other countries but think they themselves deserve freedom of such action,


 


Jacob B, Feb 20, 2011 @ 20:32
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 62

correction...freedom FROM such action

The text you are quoting:

correction...freedom FROM such action


Jacob B, Feb 20, 2011 @ 20:41
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 63

http://www.swissinfo.ch/fre/A_La_une/Archive/Esclavage:_la_Suisse_a_aussi_les_mains_sales.html?cid=3474446


This is the link about Switzerland and slavery.  The study was conducted by a Swiss historian.  The source for the interview is www.swissinfo.ch which is published by the Swiss government

The text you are quoting:

http://www.swissinfo.ch/fre/A_La_une/Archive/Esclavage:_la_Suisse_a_aussi_les_mains_sales.html?cid=3474446


This is the link about Switzerland and slavery.  The study was conducted by a Swiss historian.  The source for the interview is www.swissinfo.ch which is published by the Swiss government


Translator, Feb 20, 2011 @ 20:32
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 64

If Europe had some kind of real, comprehensive foreign policy and troops the situation would not be as precarious.

Funny how some think its ok to march an invasion force into other countries but think they themselves deserve freedom of such action,

 


Feb 20, 11 20:32

This is not to say that the United States is correct in every or most cases. I specified that the Iraq war --  in both cases -- was not.  Saving lives in Bosnia and that region, were.  Look at how many people died in Rwanda because no one intervened. 


The Dutch were right and courageous to serve as  peacekeepers. They also died because of screwed up and unrealistic rules of engagment.  The United States has a treaty  with NATO countries, but shouldn't other people around the world be helped as well.  Should we US citizens refuse humanitarian aid to Pakistan because it's government is less than functional?

The text you are quoting:

This is not to say that the United States is correct in every or most cases. I specified that the Iraq war --  in both cases -- was not.  Saving lives in Bosnia and that region, were.  Look at how many people died in Rwanda because no one intervened. 


The Dutch were right and courageous to serve as  peacekeepers. They also died because of screwed up and unrealistic rules of engagment.  The United States has a treaty  with NATO countries, but shouldn't other people around the world be helped as well.  Should we US citizens refuse humanitarian aid to Pakistan because it's government is less than functional?


Translator, Feb 20, 2011 @ 20:43
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 65

correction...freedom FROM such action


Feb 20, 11 20:41

Believe me, people who suffered during hurricane Katrina would have welcomed assistance from wherever it came, even Hugo Chavez...

The text you are quoting:

Believe me, people who suffered during hurricane Katrina would have welcomed assistance from wherever it came, even Hugo Chavez...


Translator, Feb 20, 2011 @ 20:48
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 66

slavery Link:


HF: It is obvious that certain circles are studying the issue. However, the main countries involved in the slave trade above all require that Westerners recognize their responsibilities.


>>>>(liberal  talk for: we want your money)



For my part, I believe Europe has a duty of restitution


>>>>Say what? ,Europe? Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Ireland, Finland, Poland,..etc etc) never commited acts of slavery, seems its a free for all.


whose shape remains to be defined. It can be expressed through purely symbolic acts through a new form of cooperation with those countries or through the assistance afforded to them.


>>>>The Socialist answer to everything: redistribution

The text you are quoting:

slavery Link:


HF: It is obvious that certain circles are studying the issue. However, the main countries involved in the slave trade above all require that Westerners recognize their responsibilities.


>>>>(liberal  talk for: we want your money)



For my part, I believe Europe has a duty of restitution


>>>>Say what? ,Europe? Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Ireland, Finland, Poland,..etc etc) never commited acts of slavery, seems its a free for all.


whose shape remains to be defined. It can be expressed through purely symbolic acts through a new form of cooperation with those countries or through the assistance afforded to them.


>>>>The Socialist answer to everything: redistribution


Jacob B, Feb 20, 2011 @ 20:44
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 67

Liberals always have an excuse for invasion

The text you are quoting:

Liberals always have an excuse for invasion


Jacob B, Feb 20, 2011 @ 20:52
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 68

Should we US citizens refuse humanitarian aid to Pakistan because it's government is less than functional?


What the US does with its money is their businessm  one can also ask why religeous minority groups in Pakistan are receiving none of the aid sent to Pakistan.  Stay out of others peoples mess,


 

The text you are quoting:

Should we US citizens refuse humanitarian aid to Pakistan because it's government is less than functional?


What the US does with its money is their businessm  one can also ask why religeous minority groups in Pakistan are receiving none of the aid sent to Pakistan.  Stay out of others peoples mess,


 


Jacob B, Feb 20, 2011 @ 20:58
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 69

slavery Link:

HF: It is obvious that certain circles are studying the issue. However, the main countries involved in the slave trade above all require that Westerners recognize their responsibilities.

>>>>(liberal  talk for: we want your money)


For my part, I believe Europe has a duty of restitution

>>>>Say what? ,Europe? Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Ireland, Finland, Poland,..etc etc) never commited acts of slavery, seems its a free for all.

whose shape remains to be defined. It can be expressed through purely symbolic acts through a new form of cooperation with those countries or through the assistance afforded to them.

>>>>The Socialist answer to everything: redistribution


Feb 20, 11 20:44

I see.  You refute the historical facts because you don't like the historians opinion. 


Liberals want to save lives, not oil or resources so you think that is wrong, too.  So those Dutch peacekeepers died in vain.


As an American citizen who has worked with soldiers and has lectured at West Point, I find your cynism about the contribution of our troops -- and your own -- to humanitarian efforts quite sad.


 

The text you are quoting:

I see.  You refute the historical facts because you don't like the historians opinion. 


Liberals want to save lives, not oil or resources so you think that is wrong, too.  So those Dutch peacekeepers died in vain.


As an American citizen who has worked with soldiers and has lectured at West Point, I find your cynism about the contribution of our troops -- and your own -- to humanitarian efforts quite sad.


 


Translator, Feb 20, 2011 @ 20:59
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 70

Look at how many people died in Rwanda because no one intervened. 


Another case for private gunownership, being an unarmed hated minority is generally a very bad idea. Sessecion is usually the answer. (see South Sudan).

The text you are quoting:

Look at how many people died in Rwanda because no one intervened. 


Another case for private gunownership, being an unarmed hated minority is generally a very bad idea. Sessecion is usually the answer. (see South Sudan).


Jacob B, Feb 20, 2011 @ 21:03
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 71

I see.  You refute the historical facts because you don't like the historians opinion.


>>>>Opinion and facts are 2 different things, please remember that


So those Dutch peacekeepers died in vain.


>>>Dont know why you are spinning the Dutch angle,..,its not going to cloud my judgement...,Those Dutch soldiers have to swear to protect the sovereinity of the Crown, Netherlands is not a republic, and since Beatrix is major share holder of Shell Oil,...they did exactly that.


As an American citizen who has worked with soldiers and has lectured at West Point, 


>>>Why is this is any way relevant?


 I find your cynism about the contribution of our troops -- and your own -- to humanitarian efforts quite sad.


>>>Thats ok, what you are really going to hate is my idea of abolishing the income tax.))) Wink

The text you are quoting:

I see.  You refute the historical facts because you don't like the historians opinion.


>>>>Opinion and facts are 2 different things, please remember that


So those Dutch peacekeepers died in vain.


>>>Dont know why you are spinning the Dutch angle,..,its not going to cloud my judgement...,Those Dutch soldiers have to swear to protect the sovereinity of the Crown, Netherlands is not a republic, and since Beatrix is major share holder of Shell Oil,...they did exactly that.


As an American citizen who has worked with soldiers and has lectured at West Point, 


>>>Why is this is any way relevant?


 I find your cynism about the contribution of our troops -- and your own -- to humanitarian efforts quite sad.


>>>Thats ok, what you are really going to hate is my idea of abolishing the income tax.))) Wink


Jacob B, Feb 20, 2011 @ 21:09
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 72

Liberals want to save lives, not oil or resources,


Nice propaganda, Thats not even close to factual truth.

The text you are quoting:

Liberals want to save lives, not oil or resources,


Nice propaganda, Thats not even close to factual truth.


Jacob B, Feb 20, 2011 @ 21:17
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 73

I see.  You refute the historical facts because you don't like the historians opinion.

>>>>Opinion and facts are 2 different things, please remember that

So those Dutch peacekeepers died in vain.

>>>Dont know why you are spinning the Dutch angle,..,its not going to cloud my judgement...,Those Dutch soldiers have to swear to protect the sovereinity of the Crown, Netherlands is not a republic, and since Beatrix is major share holder of Shell Oil,...they did exactly that.

As an American citizen who has worked with soldiers and has lectured at West Point, 

>>>Why is this is any way relevant?

 I find your cynism about the contribution of our troops -- and your own -- to humanitarian efforts quite sad.

>>>Thats ok, what you are really going to hate is my idea of abolishing the income tax.))) Wink


Feb 20, 11 21:09

Although that has nothing to do with this thread, I know all about the US angle of that.  I studied economics -- liberal, Keynesian, neoclassical, Milton Friedman and radical political economics -- at the masters level.  I looked up that Austrian site and I had a good laugh!


On the military.  My experience is relevant because it shows I know in significant detail how the US military works and the decision-making processes about participating in peacekeeping and humanitarian missions. Speaking personally to soldiers helps one understand how many conservative young soldiers -- men and women -- view their role in these missions. 


Of course, many Americans took the same view about Hitler and without Pearl Harbor, US entry in the war would have been delayed even longer.


On the Dutch, well, the Queen and her government agreed that those soldiers should serve as UN peacekeepers. I don't mention it to cloud your judgement.  I mention it because it was a terrible consequence of ineffective UN conflict engagement policies.


By the way, the US -- and world economy -- would have been in much better shape without those Iraq wars -- not to mention Afghanistan.  The US should leave those places and take care of all the soldiers (and their families) who are suffering from post-traumatic stress from those conflicts, not to mention our crumbling inner- and outer- cities.


 

The text you are quoting:

Although that has nothing to do with this thread, I know all about the US angle of that.  I studied economics -- liberal, Keynesian, neoclassical, Milton Friedman and radical political economics -- at the masters level.  I looked up that Austrian site and I had a good laugh!


On the military.  My experience is relevant because it shows I know in significant detail how the US military works and the decision-making processes about participating in peacekeeping and humanitarian missions. Speaking personally to soldiers helps one understand how many conservative young soldiers -- men and women -- view their role in these missions. 


Of course, many Americans took the same view about Hitler and without Pearl Harbor, US entry in the war would have been delayed even longer.


On the Dutch, well, the Queen and her government agreed that those soldiers should serve as UN peacekeepers. I don't mention it to cloud your judgement.  I mention it because it was a terrible consequence of ineffective UN conflict engagement policies.


By the way, the US -- and world economy -- would have been in much better shape without those Iraq wars -- not to mention Afghanistan.  The US should leave those places and take care of all the soldiers (and their families) who are suffering from post-traumatic stress from those conflicts, not to mention our crumbling inner- and outer- cities.


 


Translator, Feb 20, 2011 @ 21:23
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 74

  I studied economics -- liberal, Keynesian, neoclassical, Milton Friedman and radical political economics -- at the masters level. 


>>Knowing your train of thought, how can you not be a money printing (oops, i mean Quantitative easening) Keynesian?


I looked up that Austrian site and I had a good laugh!


>>>Liberals are not ignorant, they just think people are too stupid to handle freedom. They need enlightened people (government employees) who decide what to do with the money they earned, Of course the mere notion of people deciding for  themselves is rediculeous,


My experience is relevant because it shows I know in significant detail how the US military works [SNIP]..


>>The workings of the US military is not relevant to invading a country or not.


Speaking personally to soldiers.. [SNIP]...view their role in these missions. 


>>So?


Of course, many Americans took the same view about Hitler


>>Of course it is the Liberal Godwin argument I have heard a million times, there is no obligation of nation A to invade nation B, 


>>>and without Pearl Harbor, US entry in the war would have been delayed even longer.


Hitler declared war on the US. not the other way around.



The text you are quoting:

  I studied economics -- liberal, Keynesian, neoclassical, Milton Friedman and radical political economics -- at the masters level. 


>>Knowing your train of thought, how can you not be a money printing (oops, i mean Quantitative easening) Keynesian?


I looked up that Austrian site and I had a good laugh!


>>>Liberals are not ignorant, they just think people are too stupid to handle freedom. They need enlightened people (government employees) who decide what to do with the money they earned, Of course the mere notion of people deciding for  themselves is rediculeous,


My experience is relevant because it shows I know in significant detail how the US military works [SNIP]..


>>The workings of the US military is not relevant to invading a country or not.


Speaking personally to soldiers.. [SNIP]...view their role in these missions. 


>>So?


Of course, many Americans took the same view about Hitler


>>Of course it is the Liberal Godwin argument I have heard a million times, there is no obligation of nation A to invade nation B, 


>>>and without Pearl Harbor, US entry in the war would have been delayed even longer.


Hitler declared war on the US. not the other way around.




Jacob B, Feb 20, 2011 @ 21:39
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 75

@Trans:On the Dutch, well, the Queen and her government agreed that those soldiers should serve as UN peacekeepers. I don't mention it to cloud your judgement. 


I believe you did, because you know I am from the Netherlands. Mentioning the Dutch was not mere coincidence.

The text you are quoting:

@Trans:On the Dutch, well, the Queen and her government agreed that those soldiers should serve as UN peacekeepers. I don't mention it to cloud your judgement. 


I believe you did, because you know I am from the Netherlands. Mentioning the Dutch was not mere coincidence.


Jacob B, Feb 20, 2011 @ 21:57
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 76

Jacob and Translator - the last 26 replies on this thread have been you 2 arguing with each other. 


You get the feeling this might be a conversation you should be having over a cup of coffee, or by email, or on the phone or in a boxing ring?


 

The text you are quoting:

Jacob and Translator - the last 26 replies on this thread have been you 2 arguing with each other. 


You get the feeling this might be a conversation you should be having over a cup of coffee, or by email, or on the phone or in a boxing ring?


 


SiteAdmin Oded, Feb 20, 2011 @ 22:04
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Re: The secular candidate for Egyptian president states the peace agreement with Israel not valid
Post 77

  I studied economics -- liberal, Keynesian, neoclassical, Milton Friedman and radical political economics -- at the masters level. 

>>Knowing your train of thought, how can you not be a money printing (oops, i mean Quantitative easening) Keynesian?

I looked up that Austrian site and I had a good laugh!

>>>Liberals are not ignorant, they just think people are too stupid to handle freedom. They need enlightened people (government employees) who decide what to do with the money they earned, Of course the mere notion of people deciding for  themselves is rediculeous,

My experience is relevant because it shows I know in significant detail how the US military works [SNIP]..

>>The workings of the US military is not relevant to invading a country or not.

Speaking personally to soldiers.. [SNIP]...view their role in these missions. 

>>So?

Of course, many Americans took the same view about Hitler

>>Of course it is the Liberal Godwin argument I have heard a million times, there is no obligation of nation A to invade nation B, 

>>>and without Pearl Harbor, US entry in the war would have been delayed even longer.

Hitler declared war on the US. not the other way around.



Feb 20, 11 21:39

Please begin a different thread.  I suspect that Oded or Nir will come along and end the thread for being off topic.


I still wonder where Star found this original article on Haaretz that began the thread.

The text you are quoting:

Please begin a different thread.  I suspect that Oded or Nir will come along and end the thread for being off topic.


I still wonder where Star found this original article on Haaretz that began the thread.


Translator, Feb 20, 2011 @ 22:14
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