You've to keep in mind that this party, UDC, reprensent only a minority of the people in Switzerland, even less in our area. But that minority is of course way to high, and we should never see these ads in our street.
But these ads are not a surprise, UDC for years used provocation to get people talk about them, and with that they accomplish what they want. Blocher was in a talk show at TSR last week, and people talked about it for a few days. And it's prolly what he's looking for... They also have a very provocative ad in newspaper these days, "why people want Blocher out of the government" or something like that. Try to ignore it, it's the best you can do...
One last thing, the way the swiss democracy works (people working very often, not only one party at the government,..) I think we can't really avoid that. It sucks to have that guy in our goverment, but at least I feel our right side party is less "nasty" than the one in other countries, and I fear that if some of these ads were forbidden they would again play a "martyr" role and it could be even worse.
Remy
RemyS, Sep 9, 2007 @ 18:46

I agree with RemyS. UDC always plays the same game : push the provocation a bit further, provoke an uproar and then position themselves as the voice of the silent majority against the privileged who can afford to be politically correct. And it works! That’s what made them one of the more powerful parties in the country. Moreover, this way, it’s them who choose a lot of the the themes that are discussed in the political arena. So I and a lot of people don’t want to play a part in that dirty game. Even writing this post makes me feel uneasy as I contribute to put UDC at the center (we never write posts about the other parties, do we?)
Bustan_A, Sep 9, 2007 @ 20:16

Thanks guys. Good points about the UDC trying to provoke in order to gain 'noise'.

But...

1. If the public (like ourselves) do not speak against it, it will not go away.
I think that in some other countries, there would be such an outcry at some of what the UDC is doing, that the UDC and their ilk would have a hard time doing it again.

2. Where are the authorities on this?
Maybe I'm naive, but I assumed the local authorities would not let such clearly racist ads stay up. But they're still up...

What think?
Nir Ofek, Sep 9, 2007 @ 21:33

Thanks Mr. Scientist.

But is ignoring it the right thing? These UDC guys put up an ad all over CH that implies, in plain words, they want to kick black people out of CH. When this goes up, is the best thing to ignore it hoping it would go away, or doing something about it?

I honestly don't know...want to hear your thoghts.

Nir Ofek, Sep 9, 2007 @ 21:37

Challenging remarks. But your points are based on several assumptions which I don't share.
1) You assume that there is no public outcry. There is one. Just open a swiss newspaper, they speak every day about UDC and its questionable methods.
2)You assume that a public outcry or legal action would solve the problem. Our point is precisely that it wouldn't - most probably it would worsen it.
3) You seem to consider that the poster itself is the problem, whereas I see it as just the symptom of a deeper problem - the fact that some people recognize themselves in this ideology and that maybe something in their life led them to it. Remove the poster, you won't have changed these people's mind. You would just have added more weigh to their "establishment against people" view of life. So the feelings you'd like to supress will surge in another way, probably worse.

So what to do? Personnaly, I prefer to admit that I have no solution to a problem than to choose a worsening solution, just in order to feel that "at least, I tried to do something". It's less glorious than playing the courageous opponent, I know, but I think it's wiser.
Bustan_A, Sep 10, 2007 @ 01:36

but i don't follow the arguments here. Am i the only one who didnt think the posters are racist? I simply assumed they were talking about kicking out the black sheep - which i took to mean undesirable elements whether they are white, black, purple, yellow, brown or pink. Controversial, yes, but racist? hardly...call me naive, but, these people can't be THAT stupid...
tweety, Sep 10, 2007 @ 16:39

That deep down, the swiss are a very racist country (Used to be married to a swiss lady) The government system is very racist against all who are not Swiss, or even white, I have been able to get more sometimes, or been treated diferently bsing white, then most of my black african friends. I think basically what the UDC represents is what all swiss people secretly want, but are too natural to say out loud.

Again this is from my own persoanl experience.

Simon
DJ_Symcard, Sep 10, 2007 @ 17:29

Sorry meant neutral nt.
DJ_Symcard, Sep 10, 2007 @ 17:29

It's not wholly true to state that no one has raised their voice against the UDC ads...a recent court decision ordered the UDC to take down a video from their website after the 7 teens who appeared in it filed a lawsuit protesting the use of the video and their portrayal in it (basically a video about teen violence and foreign influence)...and I've also heard and read about people's negative reactions to the infamous black sheep ad (although I agree with Tweety and CDNSarah - knowing the UDC platform as established by Blocher, he's an equal opportunity racist "all foreignors out"!)

Switzerland's politics, like those of other nations (and I don't want to start a major debate), are governed by the fears of the people (be it economic, social or other) and by those political parties which are best able to manipulate them...in addition, Switzerland is also a land of contradiction - insular vs. humanitarian - and it has yet been able to arrive at a balance.

Let's hope the Swiss are able to realise and avoid the manipulation trap in the upcoming elections (unlike voters in other elections...)
Tasmin67, Sep 10, 2007 @ 18:32

Yes Tweetie, I think you are naive. Literally, of course, the posters just illustrate a very common saying in French (“le mouton noir”), which is not racist per se. But you have to be very gullible not to understand the unspoken message. UDC very skilfully plays on the edge and they didn’t chose this image by chance. They knew perfectly how it would be understood and were happy with that. If you consider the poster individually, it’s maybe not obvious, but they’ve been playing this kind of games for years, so we know what they stand for and which kind of feelings they want to arouse in people.

DJ_Smycard, with your generalizations about the Swiss, you behave exactly like the people you call racists. I find it a bit sad.

Bustan_A, Sep 10, 2007 @ 18:37

It concerns a proposal to expel foreigners who are convicted criminals.

Other countries in Europe are doing it already, such as the French who throw out foreign extremists who are seen as a serious threat to the national security.

Sylph, Sep 10, 2007 @ 18:38

I think the debate we have here is not on the proposal itself but on the poster and the feelings it tries to arouse
Bustan_A, Sep 10, 2007 @ 19:12

What's the point of getting all excited over a picture or a headline in a newspaper without having an overall view?

(Not that I'm defending UDC, I have no clue who they are and I am certainly no expert about Swiss politics)

Sylph, Sep 10, 2007 @ 20:45

At least for me, the debate is about the poster.

The debate is not about the UDC party and its views, because what ever they think is known and is out of our influence.

The debate is how a poster that - atleast to me - is very racial, is allowed to stay up in all Swiss cities. There is a limited public outcry, but nothing major that's enough to force the posters down. And there is some negative words about the posters from officials, but again - nothing again to force the posters down.

Freedom of speach is OK, but not when a clearly racist message is made. And I think that the public, and the authorities, should do more to enforce this.

Nir Ofek, Sep 10, 2007 @ 21:08

the real strengh of the image is that anyone who criticises it exposes his own hypocrisy. Objectively, there is nothing wrong with it. move on...
Sylv1, Sep 10, 2007 @ 22:06

You mean actually replacing the black sheep depicted in the poster with a black person?
That is so unthinkable it did not even cross my mind to see it that way! Guess the coin finally dropped and if this is indeed the idea then I take back my previous comment. My sincere apologies.


Sylph, Sep 10, 2007 @ 23:03

Like many Glocalers, was stunned by this blatant racism poster in the backbone of Swiss flag. Isn’t this poster a modern version of 3 K, Nazi or Apartheid kind of propaganda? The black and white color they use is just frightening.

If the right wing Swiss People’s Party, the largest party in the parliament and leading in the polls dares to use racial issue, it must have been carefully calculated the political gain from this dirty trick. The spokesman for the party, Matthias Muellersays actually openly said ”the campaign has attracted huge support.” I do not know if this is political reality in Switzerland.

The use of xenophobia and fear of crime by right wing politicians is an old dirty trick, nothing new. What really critical is how voice of justice being heard and racism being condemned.

We as foreigners here in Switzerland should have our independent voice on this issue now gaining world media attention.

Because Glocal is a rainbow community, we embrace all colors, we have friends from different continents, different cultures, possess different values and beliefs. We not only tolerate difference, we appreciate diversity. Diversity is Glocal’s main strength and we are pound of this.

"Ignorance is the root of all evil". If we remain silence on this, we are no different from them.

What can we do? A few ideas for brainstorming

1.We launch a campaign website which could be called “Rainbow Sheep Campaign” against “Apartheid kicking Black Sheep poster”, (I can volunteer to register this url:rainbowsheepcampaign.ch)

2.Issue news releases. Glocal is not a political site so it should be some volunteers called Voice of Swiss friends or something like that. (Any Commutation people here?)

3.Design a campaign poster/logo with 7 sheep of 7 colors representing rainbow happily dancing around Swiss flag…(Aare there good graphic designers out there?)
4.launch an online petition aiming to remove the poster send to the chairman of (www.petitiononline.com) (this is easy, there are many free sites for activism)

5.Write email to all your Swiss friends telling than that as a legitimate foreigner, you are not comfortable or you are offended by this poster. We express our opinion because we like this country. (Everybody can do this..)

Just a few quick and immature ideas…please email me or follow the postings if you are interested in making this Online Campaign a reality.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has". Margaret Mead. Anthropologist
wayne, Sep 11, 2007 @ 01:42

I don't agree with your plan of action. You'd just be helping to attract more attention to the UDC's compaign. People are getting sucked into the debate and that's precisely what they want.
Sylv1, Sep 11, 2007 @ 09:31

ofcourse you can take the poster in it's 'facevalue' message: kicking out the 'black sheep'.

But I think we'd have to be a bit naive not to see a different meaning: all the white swiss sheep kicking out of the country the one sheep that is of black color...
Nir Ofek, Sep 11, 2007 @ 12:40

...don't get rid of him. He might give you the nicest twins"

I've heard this Malgache proverb the other day from a disabled person, and it sums it all for me.

Arguing about the posters will do few effects I'm afraid. Indeed, there is to me an obvious hidden messages, most of the Swiss get, either on a conscious or unconscious level: "kick the nigers out". What shall we do with that ? I'm afraid that, if we forbid those posters, people will just hide deeper down their fears under a mask of politically correctness. But this is a very well known psychological fact: driven down fears tend to grow bigger. Fears and guilts put in the open deflate quickly.

To come back to those posters, my son saw them the other day, and aked me what they meant. This was actually a great opportunity for me to explain him what racism and xenophobia are. How life could be if people would treat blonds (like him) as they do with black people. He admited being sometimes scared to play with black children, because he is not "used to them". But when I spotted him the facts that his beloved cousin is half Vietnamese, his dear friend Wayne Taiwanese, one of his schoolmate african, another Italian, another Pakistanis, I think he suddenly realised how empty and sad a country without them all would be. This is, to my understanding, my best countribution to fight against racism I can to today.

We all have hidden nasty pulsions and phobias somewhere I guess. The best way to make earth a better place is probably not to fight against other people's expressions of fear. But first, kick ours out of ourselves, and then, listen with empathy to others'ones.

No one can logically defend racism. Get on a peaceful discussion with a racist, respect and listen to his - most of the time fantasized, but sometimes legitimate - fears. Don't judge him as evil and stupid from the start, and listen to him as a suffering human being. To me, xenophobia ("fear of the unlikeness") is just as a disease. Don't fight the patient, but the disease. Don't hide the symptoms, treat the cause. Don't put patients in ghettos, but open yourself to them.

My two cents.
Hobbes, Sep 11, 2007 @ 15:13

Sylph, would you suggest to just say nothing and pretend the problem is not there?
Nir Ofek, Sep 11, 2007 @ 17:33

thread.

Racism and stereotyping - explicit or implicit - is indeed an illness. The answer to hate is never hate.

The profound ideas of Martin Luther King Jr remain dreams. When will people not be judged by the color of their skin, but by content of their character?

One of the tragic impact of racism, and bigotry in general, is the impact it has on the psyche of the subject. Whether people frown, shun, expel, attack someone with certain religious faith, of racial origin, or whatever - it is not just the bigot who is suffering; such behavior can also have tragic effect on those who are the subject of frown, shun, expel, attack.

If hate is not the answer to hate, silence is not the answer either. The tragedy of silence before and during early the World War is something we can not, and should not, forget.

Why not talk about it? Why not use it as an opportunity, as something to leverage good - like the Samurai's Jujutsu? After all, Jujutsu evolved as a method of using an opponent's / attacker's energy against him in situations where politeness and economy were paramount. Instead of silence, instead of discussion that keeps the status quo, why not jujutsu for something better than status quo?

What can one do?

One to one engagement is easy. And important. Yet, if mass posters have been advertised, one to one engagement is insufficient.

The tough question that still remains: how to make a positive, interesting and constructive response to mass advertising? What are creative jujutsu responses to make that dream more of reality: people not being judged by the color of their skin or religious belief or gender or other superficial stereotypes, but people being judged by the content of their character?

colorado, Sep 11, 2007 @ 17:37

I support the idea of being actively against this frightening UDC campaign, and as a Swiss with foreign origins, I feel very uncomfortable looking at those posters. A website launched by foreigners living in Switzerland would be a good idea, as everyone could get easily have access to it.
Just a short update on the reactions of the authorities: apart of the comments ("d?go?tant" said the actual swiss president Calmy-Rey among other reactions), two cantons, Geneva and Vaud (the last one just today) voted their official disagreement on this campaign.
Geneva's executive voted a motion saying: «inacceptable, irresponsable et indigne»; Geneva'city officially denounced it;
Vaud's parliament another saying: «honteuse, indigne et incitant ? la haine raciale». A penal complain has been lodged by Licra (Ligue contre le racisme et l'antis?mitisme) and the UN rapporteur on racism has sent a letter underlinig his concern to the swiss governement. So the debate is on among swiss society, but... the posters are still on the walls.
Virgule, Sep 11, 2007 @ 17:47

I'd be the first, or second, to raise hell.

But – because several people here, me included, did not perceive the poster the way you and other people did, we are obviously dealing with a subliminal message and we are threading on pretty shaky grounds.

As it is with most subliminal messages, the ones who are receptive to it see it right away and they know it is there.
These are the hard core racists who are probably cheering right now, and whatever you do won't change them nor their ideas, it is too deeply ingrained. Unlike Hobbes, I have no desire to sit down and listen to what makes a lunatic a lunatic because I don't care how and why they got that way. In my opinion no amount of reasoning and "understanding" is going to make a dent in changing them or their views, they're beyond therapy (yes Hobbes, some diseases cannot be treated, unfortunately).
My concern is the people they victimize and the amount of hate and destruction and grief these people leave on their way.

The rest, probably the vast majority, is completely unaware (putting aside for a moment another problem, which is people's comfortable state of apathy). They see the poster at face value and they believe this is about deporting dangerous, criminal elements out of their society and they probably think that's not such a bad idea.

The problem is there, it is not new and sadly it is not about to go away. No amount of Benetton' style posters with colorful sheep dancing about, no amount of petitions and demonstrations, are going to help change the way people think and act, although it is a great, creative idea of Wayne. It is education that one day will make a difference.


Sylph, Sep 11, 2007 @ 18:27

i can only agree to both comments (nt)
LNA__, Sep 11, 2007 @ 18:50

For me the message of these posters was obvious from the second I saw them. The UDC tries to propagate the ludicrous shortcut "Black people (and foreigners by extention) = Criminals; ergo: no Black people or foreigners in Switzerland = no crime".

The UDC is uses these primitive racist mechanisms since many years (see previous posters that soiled our streets). It was just a wonderful opportunity to diffuse their manicheist and discriminatory opinion under a common and innocent saying ("No, that's not what we meant! We wanted to say criminals, not people from different colours" Yeah right!).

The posters are outraging, and cannot be tolerated in a country like the Swiss CONFEDERATION (that means people from different places/origins gathered together).

I'm a half-breed, (a "Bastard") of Corsican, Nordman, Belgian and German. I took the swiss nationality in 2001, and I was the only white among a hundred people that swore the oath. This made me sincerely happy, because other cultures are a real fortune for our nation(s). Few of my friends, if they have the swiss passport, have a 100% swiss origin.

I took me long to post a thread against these vile posters, mostly because I didn't want to add some fuss and make the UDC more important than it is, but I think that remaining silent is a form of complicity, and racism is INTOLERABLE.

Shame on these posters, on the narrow-minded UDC members and racists people...

Syd.

PS1: If it can help against the negative image of Switzerland diffused by this poster campaign, I'd like to remember that some cantons (Geneva in them) voted FOR the right of foreigners to vote at the communal level. I was happy to see my Dad vote in Switzerland (he did it the first day he received the envelope, while I procrastinated as usual and did it at the last minute!)

PS2: I think the Wolfie could gore some of these "white sheeps" ;-)
Syd_Brown, Sep 11, 2007 @ 19:08

Looking more closely to the poster, I noticed some facts I haden't spoted at first:

- only one sheet is acting. The other two stare, and don't say anything. They neither smile nor have angry faces, but keep their heads down

- the white sheep kicks the black one with it's rear legs, and seems actually not that pride of his action. A bit a a footballer would tackle an oponent in the hide

- the black sheep looks exactly alike the other ones, but the color. He seems disapointed more than guilty or willing to fight back

- there is no fence around the red area

You don't get the point ? Just imagine another possible poster: 4 white sheeps. 1 bleeding in the back, 3 angry in line, facing a fence, front legs up, and the black one with a bleeding knife in his hands trying to come back. The message would be different, wouldn't it ? To me, it would first of all look very much less Swiss. Hence the questions: do the two white sheeps silently support the action, or just don't dare opposing it ? What has the black sheep done wrong (but looking different) ? Why don't they have a fence, if they want to be safe ?

We could actually see this poster as a swiss xenophobic fantasm:
- Switzerland is under treath, with open borders
- we feel unconfortable living with people who don't look like us, but not necesseraly have anything to reproach them on a legal level
- we don't want to quick people out based on their skin color, or say it in the open ("we're no racists"), but we won't do anything if some decide to do it for us, with apparent good reasons

An any case, looks to me like UDC is the active sheep, and others stay and wonder "what shall we do?"... as many Swiss do nowadays.
Hobbes, Sep 11, 2007 @ 19:44

There are at least three issues here

First, the sick racist or bigot. Not every sickness can be cured - Sylph is right on this. In those beyond-help cases, a smile and a silent tear drop perhaps is the best one can do. Yet, not every case is a hopeless case. Sometimes, diseases can be addressed so that they do not worsen. Some do get healthier once they see that their assumptions and stereotypes are wrong, and when they realise that diversity enriches and can be wonderful. Education can be an effective vaccine.

Yet, that is not the only issue with bigotry. There are at least two more.

The real tragedy starts when the state machinery and when the laws begin to adjust so as to acknowledge and reflect the noisy campaigns - in parts or in whole. History tells us that political themes are driven by those who speak up; those who are silent usually get ignored. Thank goodness for the Constitutional safeguards and Bill of Rights (Swiss, USA or elsewhere) that the minority and the silent majority gets another chance. It is, in part the political and current-laws issue, that should encourage voters to participate in their democracies. Speak up so that those who need to hear you, can.

The third issue is the innocent victim. When someone is discriminated or shunned because of her gender, or religious belief, or racial origin, or whatever - that someone is being treated with injustice. This can create a sense of dejection, hopelessness, and despair that is simply not what life is all about. It makes us less as a society. It hurts everyone. Speaking up is a way to tell the innocent victim that they are not alone and they do not have to feel lonely. If a few can loudly proclaim their disturbing message, it may help if the many can at least whisper their love and belief in the goodness of man.

With best wishes from Colorado.
colorado, Sep 11, 2007 @ 20:05

ok. it's obvious that the poster lends itself pretty well to a racial interpretation. But why are you promoting that interpretation ? if you are so righteous, why are you all so quick to associate "black sheep" with "black people" ? is that not racism ? Earlier in the thread Sylph said she didn't see anything wrong with the poster, you guys convinced her of the opposite. So much that she had to "take back" her "previous comment". Was her view morally wrong ? Not at all, she had a completely prejudice-free opinion. Now she has been sucked into a nasty debate in which black sheep = dark skinned immigrants. You nicely introduced her to the idea that black people = black sheep. Essentially, you're contributing to the spread of racist views.

The only "good" way to react to this poster is not to react at all.

Political parties that hold extreme views like to simplify things. They thrive when the debate is limited to two very clear-cut views, because it matches their bold, uncompromising opinions. This new campaign is no exception, the SVP takes a very simple approach to a complex social issue. Your response ? Parody posters showings sheeps of all colours being happy and loving each other. Not only are you advertising your obsession with race (refer to previous paragraph) but you're also matching the UDC's extreme views, you narrow the debate to two opposed camps. Perfect for Blocher & Co.

Finaly, hoping to hurt the UDC by calling them racist and intolerant is very naive from a political point of view. No party anywhere is the world has ever won an election because they were nicer to foreigners. The UDC have many weaknesses (the ecology, the army reform, their energy policy...) but no one is talking about it.
Sylv1, Sep 11, 2007 @ 23:34

How this makes me like the people I believe to be racist, of course not all Swiss citizens are racist, but generally a lot of them are. I can't see how claiming that the swiss tend to be racist makes me exactly the same. It is an observation! Does by saying that the grass is green or that the sky is blue or that Africans tend to be black make me those colours?
DJ_Symcard, Sep 12, 2007 @ 01:59

I have never seen, heard or read any historical progress being achieved by people not reacting, remaining silence and ignoring on unjust issues. I believe in an open society, the best way to reduce prejudice is to debate all these controversial issues as openly as possible. I believe people do change their prejudice view if different voices are being fully presented.

We ought to believe people do change no matter how prejudice or bigotry they are. Of course, people do change. Don’t you? Merely couple decades ago, women were not allowed to vote in Europe and North America. Politics were exclusively for men. Child labor was meant legal…, Look now! Just 15 years ago, CEO from major oil companies still claimed that global warming is an exaggeration not a scientific fact and refused to do something…Now, none dares to challenge this upcoming disaster for mankind!

“A better world is not some place we are going but a place we are creating, we do not discover the path but make them, and the action of making the future changes both the maker and destination” Paraphrase, Author unknown

wayne, Sep 12, 2007 @ 10:50

Thanks Wayne.

I think creating a simple web site that shows a more friendly version of all-color sheep living together, and allowing people to comment on it, is a real nice idea.

It will NOT change the opinions of anyone, but that's not its objective, as I see it. The objective is to voice our own feelings, and enable others - who also feel like us - do the same...

The site itself would have:
- a visual of the 'rainbow sheep'
- short text (in English and the local languages) explaining why we're doing this, and explainign we ain't political, we're just about tolerant people.
- a way for people to leave comments.

I think it would be fast and cheap to create such a web site.

What say - is it worth a shot?
Nir Ofek, Sep 12, 2007 @ 14:30

When I showed this poster to my husband, he confessed that, initially, he had not seen the racial undertone. In retrospect, though, it's extremely difficult to believe that a professional marketing team, hired by a political party, would not have been aware of the possible implication of creating an ad with 'a group of white objects kicking out a black one'. But even with this awareness the NDC went ahead with the advertisement anyway, despite the possibility of sending an offensive message.

Anyone following a political campaign knows that politicians will bend-over-backwards (to the point of lying) NOT to offend any potential group of voters. Therefore, one can assume because the NDC was aware of the alternative interpretation and sent it out anyway, they are hoping to appeal to a racist population while remaining obscure to everyone else.
Riley, Sep 12, 2007 @ 14:43

why don't we write them asking to change the sheeps' colour?

i mean 4 green or brown or violet sheeps who kicks out the black one. it would have the same meaning (kick out the bad guy) but without any racist reference (white vs black)
aandreaa, Sep 12, 2007 @ 14:45

...I guess the ad wasn't as effective as they hoped ;)
Riley, Sep 12, 2007 @ 14:45

I'm not confident that a website designed by and for foreigners as a platform to advise the Swiss on how we expect to be treated in Switzerland is the best approach. Rarely does anyone like being told what to think or do and I doubt, even the most open-minded and accepting Swiss national, would appreciate foreign self-righteousness.

It is a privilege to be in Switzerland, not a right.

Instead, I think it’s better to advertise the socio-economic contribution foreigners make to Swiss society. I also think the UDC statistics should be challenged. According to a pamphlet I received in the mail, foreigners allegedly commit more crime then Swiss citizens but there are no statistics included. I would be interested to know how many foreigner on foreigner crimes are committed and whether or not these stats include domestic crime. With a huge population of Swiss living abroad, I’d also be interested in knowing how many Swiss companies and citizens commit crimes in other countries.

People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones

Riley, Sep 12, 2007 @ 15:28

In french, "black sheep" means "Le mouton noir"

... and it's the name that we give the people who are disturbing a group (for example)

It's not racist at all!
versace, Sep 12, 2007 @ 15:30

3 years ago, it wasn't a black sheep but faces of obviously looking
or what were perceived to be non swiss......that did cause an uproar and discussion.
however, a country which allows discrimination on so many levels ( race, age, sex, nationality) cannot possibly be ready to fit in to the european community.
nevertheless, we all live here, look the other way, and are powerless, because as foreigners, we have no voice in government......even though we are bound to pay taxes.
one major world power was founded on the idea of taxation without representation was not going to be upheld.......and they revolted against king george......now they are known as the united states!!
epicure, Sep 12, 2007 @ 15:39

It's a colloquialism meaning an outsider or one who is different in a way which others disapprove of or find odd. The term originated from the fact that the occasional black sheep is born into a herd of white sheep. Black sheep were considered undesirable because their wool cannot be dyed, and there weren't enough to make black wool.

So...personally, I don't think the intent (unless I am underestimating the deviousness of the UDC) is to target one ethnic group over another. As I said in an earlier posting, the UDC is an equal opportunity racist...What I do find interesting is the increase in group crime...how does the UDC propose to handle the "black sheep" in the case (as in a recent criminal act) where the group is composed of native Swiss, naturalised Swiss and foreigners? Would the native Swiss be considered a "black sheep" as well? What about the naturalised Swiss person? I am not up on Swiss naturalisation laws but it seems to me that it is not legal to revoke a person's passport if it leaves them effectively stateless and, therefore, does this mean that the UDC is sponsoring a two tier criminal legal system - one law and penalty for the Swiss and another for the foreigners? And how long until this two tier legal system expands into other areas?
Tasmin67, Sep 12, 2007 @ 16:16

Sylv1 has a good point. Are we letting the image mean more than it can or should? Is this a Rorschach test that speaks more of the interpreter’s psyche?

The answer is a bit complicated. First, the image is not an Rorschach inkblot. Black sheep means something already. To most, it is a derogatory term that is meant to identify someone who is an outsider, or someone shunned, or someone who chooses to follow a different religion or something from the group/family. Read, for example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_sheep_(term)

It is therefore not surprising that many in this thread are automatically interpreting and linking it to Xenophobia and bigotry.

Second, ad copywriting and proofing is a complex process. As Riley mentions in this thread, when someone creates and presents you with ad ideas - you normally get numerous drafts (dozens). The ad copy writers try to make it simple and catchy, colors are carefully selected to convey the desired message, characters in the ad are carefully placed, what they say is carefully drafted, etc. The company that created this ad had a responsibility. Those who selected and approved it had a responsibility.

Finally, the real issue is the debate subject. The ad should not shift the debate from other topics; rather it should be part of the subjects discussed. Perhaps, the candidates should be asked what their views are on immigration, how much is okay, and what policies and laws they would adopt to make immigrants integrate, contribute and enrich. Similarly, the candidates should be asked what their views are on crime, and what initiatives and laws they would adopt to address it.

All political parties and individuals have a right to express their views, no matter how much others disagree. Let some offer fear, and let some offer hope. Hopefully, the voters will then make the better choice.
colorado, Sep 12, 2007 @ 16:39

First of all, as a swiss person, I have to admidt that Mr Blocher is a disgrace to our country. He pretends that everything he does, he does it because he loves Switzerland (but in fact he loves his idea of Switzerland) and that if we do not like what he does or says, it means we are ennemies to our country...

Anyway, to me the black sheep represents all the criminal foreigners, not only black people, because UDC is not only racist but xenophobic.

There is one thing that the swiss people can do, it is to boycott the "initiative populaire" that this campaign is promoting... it is as simple as that. And I may be naive, but I am quite confident that the swiss people will not let it happen. Almost all the posters I have seen in Geneva had drawing or quotes on them mocking UDC. I also saw a poster with a picture of Mr Blocher and someone added a small moustache like a certain unpleasant nazi I won't mention... so no, at least in Geneva, people do not like Mr Blocher's ideas.
zezette, Sep 12, 2007 @ 16:39

Look at how taxes are calculated. B permit pays by a monthly tax rate, regardless of annual income, so heaven help you if your income jumps one month. C permit/citizens can take charitable deductions and it seems (because I don't know yet) that your income tax rate is assessed based on the annual amount, rather than you scored some overtime, so the taxman will just take even more than usual.
I know the 3eme pilier is tax shelter option as is buying back years on my pension even with a B permit, but those seem to be the only pluses. I am really looking forward to my C permit next year.
misskate, Sep 12, 2007 @ 16:41

sheeps. Their Marketing team deserve a big reward ! :-)

Anyway do like me just vote for Ali benouari!

Amel
Amel, Sep 12, 2007 @ 17:12

And since I'm a sucker for quotes (because it facilitates the thinking process :-)
here's one of my all time favorite, which fits perfectly for the occasion:

“The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in times of great moral crises maintain their neutrality” Dante

Sylph, Sep 12, 2007 @ 18:41

I don´t know if the expression "beeing the black sheep" is exsisting in other cultures/languages. In german/french it is a description for a person, who brakes the rules, for example, a criminal person. It doesn´t mean a foreigner. So no preference, if the "black sheep" is asian, european or african.
I checked the homepage of UDC and they wrote, that they advocate for deportation of criminal foreigners.
I don´t know this party well, but they´re calling themselves "centralized".
I would call for example islamic extremist black sheeps. What do you think?
But it´s true, that this publicity is very simple cartooned and these reactions can be expected or understand wrong.

Ira2007

Ira2007, Sep 12, 2007 @ 19:14

I have read all the posts...and I was quite surprised at how UDC managed to reach your feelings...;-))))
But I guess that the best way to turn their campain against them would be to hijack it...launching a multi-coloured sheeps campain on an obscure website wouldn't reach enough people...but launching a new sport, or a new trend, or a competition, which would be (just an example), to colour the sheeps of their adds, or change them in any way, like all sheeps black, or change the black sheep in a white one, or add other animals...anything creative, with humour and grace would be the right answer to this in my opinion.
My other concern is that I left France because I was fed up of all these people who would try to tell me what I had to think, what was right to think and wrong to think. And even if I don't like what the "black sheep" message conveys, I feel that the good attitude (but of course, it does not feed your ego just as much), is the reaction Hobbes had with his son: explain that it is much more fun to have diner with a table of 10 nationalities and cultures than to have diner with people who all think the same, act the same, look the same...That's what is fun and interesting in Geneva: all the different people...
spellbinder, Sep 12, 2007 @ 19:41

Having returned to Geneva after a 16-year stay in Canton Zurich, I can confirm that the eastern part of CH is filled with ignorant racists. The SVP (UDC)-Zurich is the center of this campaign, as it is the canton of both Christoph Blocher and Ueli Maurer.

Make no mistake, Switzerland IS a racist and exclusive nation.
whoopster, Sep 12, 2007 @ 19:59

For those who don't see the racist undertones in the ad, I invite you to review the UDC's positions regarding foreigners and immigration. Look at their past ads and current agends. This was not some innocuous advert targeting foreign criminals. You have a large graphic of white sheep kicking out a black sheep, but you have to read the small text to become clear on the issue. The graphic is obviously meant to appeal to a certain type of person, much like the large posters of nude women in the Swatch ads.
Rasta, Sep 12, 2007 @ 20:16

If we define racism as prejudice towards other people because of their race, then my title is wrong. But if racism also includes an ethnic part, then your statement, that the Swiss are racist, is racist itself. And using racist rants against other people does not make you more welcome nor does it make you more believable.

The term 'Black Sheep' is according to wikipedia not per se racist but "a derogatory colloquialism in the English language meaning an outsider or one who is different in a way which others disapprove".

If you believe that the use of black and white in our culture should be banned because it in itself implies that black people are worth less, just because we wed in white and wear black at funerals, you are so far away from this society that you probably should leave.

I have written more about what I think of racism here http://funfactfiction.blogspot.com/.
Alan S, Sep 12, 2007 @ 20:24

it has nothing to do with racisim , the coulor here means different .. dont look at it from this angle, simply it means those who behave badly have no place here and sould be kicked out. could be white, brown black, green and behave bad .
swiss people are not known by bieng racist.

busstop, Sep 12, 2007 @ 20:39

seasch:

If it is so bad here, why don't they get back where they came from.
whoopster, Sep 12, 2007 @ 20:57

I want to thank Seasch for showing us all how he really believes.

Racists always show their true feelings!
whoopster, Sep 12, 2007 @ 21:07

...if a political (even be that a nascent-staged grassroots org) party fixes this ad across CH, it means it does so @ expense of a back-up of its voters... so, please don't tell me there is no racist/racism implications. in (domestic esp'lly) politics, u draw abstracts & speak with votes ... not a lot of swiss ppl are racist, but the lingering emotions & feelings to be self-preserving & different give way to other (alternative) feelings... expressions, political culture is not evolving... it is becoming confused. there is nothing we, as expats/foreigners, can change unless the swiss public changes it (giving votes to others)...and in that, i guess i am powerless ... but only to enjoy and continue to learn the country, its culture, its preferences that globalisation & cross-cultural dialogue so demonstratively brings...

thanx to Nir of course, and esp'lly thans to those very swiss Glocal'ers having engaged in "thinking" process.
Good_One, Sep 12, 2007 @ 21:26

....but it seems like most of the people here don't want to read or to anderstand the facts :-)
versace, Sep 12, 2007 @ 21:49

One theme in this thread: the ad posters are about foreigners who commit crime.

Aren't there Swiss laws on this issue already?

In the United States, relevant laws have already existed for a long time. Immigrants or visitors who commit a crime go through the judicial process. The law already provides that their visa be revoked and they deported. The law also requires that an immigrant be law-abiding before they can apply or obtain citizenship. This issue, nevertheless, keeps appearing on state ballots - along with request for election-time funding to fight/support the ballot.

It would be surprising if Swiss laws do not address this already.

The real issue isn't crime committed by foreigners (whether they are from Europe, America, Asia or Australia). It does not matter if the thief is from a specific continent. The real issue is crime and what initiatives are needed to apprehend the criminal for prosecution within the judicial process.
colorado, Sep 12, 2007 @ 23:09

I agree that noise generated by such campaigns often stand to serve the cause they represent, I agree that oversimplifying things has proven a very powerful political rhetoric. Unfortunate, in my view, on both counts. And very clever of the UDC to have achieved a check in the box for achieving both noise and good use of simple visual symbol which - to boot! - is open to interpretation. Very clever.

However, I completely DISAGREE that being aware of the various interpretations reveals your racist side?! Sounds like the simplified kind of 'takes one to know one comment' you hear in playgrounds... Are you suggesting that because you are sensitive to how the use of such an image COULD be interpreted as promoting kicking (and Hobbes, I don't think the biophysical dynamics of a kick works so well with any other combination of legs for sheep?!) out people of colour, which in itself would be racist, makes you a racist yourself? Surely you can conceed - even if only now, following the comments sharing perceptions on this forum - the not insignificant potential for this interpretation?? Which I would argue was the clear intent. Recongnising that potential for interpretation could make you a very incensed individual shocked at how such blatent racist implications are tolerated in public.
Of course, it can simply be argued black sheep = simply bad people who deserve it... Rationally, many will agree [those with a more inclusive, humanitarian approach may not see this as the 'solution']. But if other dimensions of interpretation are lost on you, this does not make others, sensitive to the connotations, racist. It makes you naive. Not a crime! or even an affront.

I REFER TO the above comments: 'the ones who are receptive to it [subliminal messages] right away ...These are the hard core racists...' and 'you are contributing to the spread of racist views' by making a link between black sheep and dark-skinned immigrants.

SimSim, Sep 12, 2007 @ 23:20

and who do you propose is going to create the site?? as if you and Wofly don't have enough on your plate as is ;)

i was walking to work the other day and noticed this poster and on it someone had marked the poster with the words 'racism'... so obviously there is strong sentiments amongst the community members. what would be fun to see is having a coloring spree, filling the white spots with a dab of multicolor. that'll show em!
YouMeCo, Sep 12, 2007 @ 23:22

That the right to express opinions needs to be defended...even if the opinion is completely opposing your own views.
[Unless of course it incites physical harm etc... ]
SimSim, Sep 12, 2007 @ 23:23

a novel idea for Glocal members would be to go out in the
streets of Geneva dressed as sheeps and role play kicking
out the 'black' sheep in front of the palais de justice!

fishintree, Sep 12, 2007 @ 23:30

Thanks Nir.

I have asked friends who are graphic designers to help out with an image. I did try my very limited skill with Photoshop but it looks rather ugly :(. I will send a draft logo to you when more professional ones come up.

I believe there are many talented Glocalers who are good at graphic design or know how to draw. There must have some creative ideas about how to create an image counterbalancing the black sheep poster.

Nir, why don’t you announce that you accept whoever is interested in giving it a try to upload their creation to Glocal...

I can register a website for this. What do you think the url www.rainbowsheepcampaign.ch ?

wayne, Sep 12, 2007 @ 23:38

you are great, have top ideas, and I live the activist in you - I think you are right that things don't get changed so fast as when you take action to change things...



SimSim, Sep 12, 2007 @ 23:45

you could even get some kind of application on a viral force to be reckoned with - Facebook? So people can decorate their profile with rainbowsheep /send rainbowsheep gifts to their Facebook 'Neighbourhood'/ ....? And then explain why... Addressing the educational side Colorado rightly pointed out accounts for a lot of attitudes, behaviour and values...
SimSim, Sep 12, 2007 @ 23:53

I don't think we should ban use of black, white, red, green, yellow... all of which have connotations, in English. However, this does make me blind to the use of these colours in certain contexts either!


SimSim, Sep 13, 2007 @ 00:13

Thanks simsim! Now, we need a developer to develop a Facebook compatible Rainbowsheep gift to be circulated. Facebook Switzerland Network has 32,428 members now, presumably young Swiss. This makes it an ideal platform to promote this campaign and to distribute educational information against this disgraceful black sheep campaign.
wayne, Sep 13, 2007 @ 00:27

It is YOU that is 'showing us'... although I am not quite clear what belief of seasch's you believe to be exposing

On what basis you judge seasch as being racist? because he pointed out people's choice to move (they may not have 'come from' anywhere, they may be native to where they live) from an environment they are uncomfortable with? This he did in a way I don't find particularly particularly respectful, but it is hardly racist. But then he didn't write that for anyhone's eyes but yours! And I find it disrespectful of you to be violating seasch's privacy by sharing his comment to you via chat with us on this forum...!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

SimSim, Sep 13, 2007 @ 00:31

Hello all,

When I first saw these posters I didn't think anything of it. Maybe I just didn't get it or I wasn't paying enough attention. Anyway, in my opinion "black sheep" in and of itself is not offensive. In general a black sheep is just someone who is "different" in any sense, it doesn't have anything to do with skin color.

(By the way, I have a black sheep on my keyring, its my mascot :-)

Maybe the posters were an underhanded way to express some kind of racist ideology, but maybe not (i'm not a mindreader so I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt).

PS - As long as i've been living here I never had any racial problems.
miss9, Sep 13, 2007 @ 00:49

As I first saw this picture from the the train carriage where I was sitting, I felt reluctant to admit what my eyes saw. There are things I thought we were not morally allowed to play with. Not after what the last century (which seems far away for certain people) witnessed. Criminals, whether from here or elsewhere, are criminals, and deserve to be punished. Nobody would argue against it. There is a justice and the justice is here to deal with them in the best possible way for everybody, that is respect for victims and for society. And I am sorry, but throwing them out of the country is not giving victims justice.
Now to show this black sheep kicked out of the country may then be a way to let people slowly associate, often in their subconscient, criminals and foreigners, or maybe criminals and coloured foreigners. It is not the first time collective consciences are being influenced in the wrong direction, and it is a strong pain for me to witness it.
I truly thought this would make most people feel uneasy. If it doesn't, I think we should rightly be afraid of what tomorrow's ad brings us.
kuroman, Sep 13, 2007 @ 01:54

great, so we have the same piont of view ,
busstop, Sep 13, 2007 @ 02:42

I am not surprised but salute if Switzerland has not enacted regulation about deporting law-breaking foreigners/immigrants.

I challenge this common legal practice enacted in some countries (including mine) on abiding visa approval, immigration status and deportation of foreigners who have served their time behind bars.

For a national, after serving jail time, it is the end of story. Why a foreigner should be punished additionally for exactly the same crime???! Deportation, removing from where he/she is, exploiting his/her freedom of been in a place where she/he was legally allowed!?)

Isn’t this obviously violating a very basic human rights principle “All are equal before the law and are entitled without “ANY” discrimination to equal protection of the law.” A person breaks laws, regardless he/she is a national or a foreigner, after serving his/her time behind bars, he/she is innocent AGAIN, not a criminal anymore!! Since they have severed their time behind bars for what they did wrong. A one time criminal is not a lifetime criminal” This is a very basic human rights principle/understanding…

Image a foreign student, a foreigner who has Swiss spouse or family here, or a political refugee who commits crime in Switzerland, why can he/she continues finishing his/her study, staying with his/her families, enjoying political asylum in Switzerland or any other countries after serving his/her time in jail?

The reasons many governments have enacted this kind of unjustifiable laws, deporting law breaking foreigners is because it is a dirty but popular policy, it is a vote sucking propaganda, it helps to boost nonsense national pride and patriotism.

When there is a social discontent, what a better idea for a government to scapegoat foreigners, immigrants, migrant workers, someone to balm for social ills and personal frustrations; it shows governments are doing something, it shows an immature society still need to put down another group of people to feel superior. It severs no other legitimate or security purposes neither reducing crime*…, it only unnecessarily tears many immigrants’ families apart all over the world…. It is a shame and should be abandoned eventually like death penalty after years fighting for it.

As you can actually see that a new EU directive rules that committing a serious crime is no longer sufficient grounds for removal. I see this is a progressive stop taken by EC.

# I can not find any empirical criminology study which shows deportation of jail-severed foreigners/immigrants resulting in reduction of crime rate in any country.

wayne, Sep 13, 2007 @ 10:46

The range of views is really interesting – we need to respond to the racists, better not to call more attention to them, the poster wasn’t really racist… My own first reaction when seeing these posters was appal. While the poster is not overtly racist in the sense of naming a particular ethnic group, I have no doubt (having lived here for ages) that the UDC played on the ambiguity of the black sheep image to protect itself from legal action while projecting an image of exclusion of those who are different, using the colours of another political campaign from several decades ago… The parallels are still limited – today’s world is different, and the UDC is in this case officially targeting criminals (and their families…) rather than the entire foreigner or non-white population. The question is, how bad could things get?

There’s an innate tendency to play perceived dangers down, thinking that there’s no need to exaggerate - this isn’t 1930’s Germany after all. But at what point would we realise that there’s a real danger developing, and it’s getting late to react? My concern is that the borders of what is considered normal are steadily shifting, almost unperceived, and if those of us who believe strongly in such basic values as respect for others don’t dig our heels in and say, you’ve crossed the limit now, it may be quite difficult to move back.

Obviously, you can’t turn a bunch of recalcitrant, xenophobic 60-year-olds into peace-and-love hippies (although you could try offering them very long holidays on an island and giving them lots to smoke…). In addition, some of their concerns are understandable at the level of the emotional victim (“we let him into our country and he raped my daughter”). Ultimately, one has to address these issues in a rational way. But I think it is a mistake to remain silent indefinitely, afraid to make things worse, while they continue to stigmatize foreigners unopposed. I am sure there are positive ways of getting the message across that would make them look ridiculous and cause them to lose votes – which would be the ultimate victory for tolerance. But who has the time and creativity to think them up…..?

JonL, Sep 13, 2007 @ 10:55

one of the only comment I see that does not mix apples with bananas.
Icebear, Sep 13, 2007 @ 11:05

ARE the peace and love hippies from the woodstock era :-) or maybe you are too young to remember lol.
epicure, Sep 13, 2007 @ 11:18

I admit that this poster does not look nice, but swiss are not racists.
I was born and raised here and I saw an evolution of the population.
Foreign people has alwasy been welcome. What design a black sheep, is not a stranger but somebody who commits crime...whether the nationality...the difference, is that the situation is different when this concerns a stranger....a stranger is supposed to respect law of the country where he/she lives...and commetting a crime is a risk to be sent back to his/her country...

Remember people have choice...nobody forced the expats to live in Switzerland !

TSATSA, Sep 13, 2007 @ 12:07

GOL is community of foreign friendly people, and most of them are expats, sent by multinational or international organization. People who have a quality of life. Not people who commit crimes or something like that.
People with a comfortable life and who arrive in Switzerland without knowing everything cause they did not live all their life here...

I saw an increase of crimes : let me explain : a member of my family has been living in a popular place, in a HLM (not many people in GOL live in HLM...) in the past, there were many old persons and foreighn people in this popular place, but everything was OK it was peaceful. Now the people have changed in this place : there are bands of young persons (not swiss, sorry) who bring insecurity in this place in the evening...it's not like France, but it will look like maybe !

So before debating, just remember : 1) you don't live in HLM 2)you have not lived there as much time as local people, you cannot judge properly...
TSATSA, Sep 13, 2007 @ 12:26

Check out this website: www.mojoki.com

You can buy T-shirts for CHF 27.- with a lovely black sheep on it... because we all are black sheeps to the eyes of UDC.

As for all the swiss people, don't be afraid to vote to show your disapproval towards UDC!
zezette, Sep 13, 2007 @ 12:42

...but point well taken. Still, you wonder where these political figures were in the 60s...
JonL, Sep 13, 2007 @ 12:43

I'm sorry, but I think this is a too manicheist point of view

I'm not quite sure that all the 12'000 members of Glocals have a high standing flat/house, especially with the kafkaian housing market of Geneva.

Furthermore, despite expats did not spend their whole life in Geneva/Switzerland, I think they are in good position as foreigner and newcomers to see or, halas, experience eventual unfriendly reactions of locals, such as prejudices, for example...

To finish, let's not forget that expats/foreigners take part of the Swiss economy and system, and contribute to the development of Switzerland, personal or monetary investments, their taxes and, most important (especially on this website), by their personal contribution. As far as I'm concerned, I consider them as citizens like me, no matter the colour of their passport, or the letter of their permit.

Syd.
Syd_Brown, Sep 13, 2007 @ 12:44

i just ordered one with the big sheep on!

so many entries in this thread that i haven't taken the time to read them all or comment before, but for the anecdote, i was severaly chocked when i first saw this poster and wondered how such racist propaganda can be allowed even taking into account the freedom of expression right?! UDC has always been scary to my eyes - but this time they went a bit too far, so i believe that reacting is the only answer.

cheers, helena
LNA__, Sep 13, 2007 @ 12:49

wow :-)) heeey, tsa-tsaaa--aa! tshhhh... :-)
Good_One, Sep 13, 2007 @ 12:55

show it to me 1 day :-))
Good_One, Sep 13, 2007 @ 12:59

u should have yourself snapped @ 1st page in passport... i mean 1 of those crazy photos w/ a naked torso, a tie...a freddi kruger hat huh? what think? let's do?

swiss border control would luv that man!
Good_One, Sep 13, 2007 @ 13:01

Being a geologist is problematic enough at border control, especially in the US...

;-)
Syd_Brown, Sep 13, 2007 @ 13:05

Me, too.
We should have some "Black-sheep cometee" here, and invite the "White sheeps" to join the culture and civilisation!
I saw those attitudes in life (even in the actions of certain members of Erasmus office in the Geneva University). I see that people here (locals) look wierd at the black people and the coloured people are always surprised & happy that I am treating them... just like normal people!!!

Helena.
HelenaTravel, Sep 13, 2007 @ 13:19

That you're a criminal, of Africian descent or a foreigner?
Riley, Sep 13, 2007 @ 15:00

is probably the real definition of cowardice AND hypocrisy
Sylph, Sep 13, 2007 @ 15:12

illiterate
yan1806, Sep 13, 2007 @ 19:07

Now the swiss are giving French lessons?
yan1806, Sep 13, 2007 @ 19:15

make me agree with Tsatsa and others - people born and raised in Switzerland are not Xenophobes or racists (regardless of what sheep or some other political campaign focuses on).

I have felt belonged and almost always - after the initial, natural hesitation with any stranger - you experience smiles and lively conversations. There are occasions when a person turns sarcastic or rude - but, I do not believe this is necessarily bigotry of some sort. They are zillion other reasons that a person may be rude to others some day - a bad hair day, a bad break up, a medical complication that is troubling them, the boss is giving them a headache, whatever.

My comment is not based on my experience in just Geneva and Vaud and french speaking parts. I have been visiting Switzerland for quite some time. I have talked and shared laughs with total strangers in my numerous train rides in Switzerland (east, northeast, etc) and boat rides in the heart of Switzerland. Many times, I end up with their email address and/or phone number; sometimes with that lovely three kisses on the cheek and a smile!

I have lived a bit in german and french speaking areas. I have stayed with my Italian speaking friends in Lugano area. At one point, I enjoyed Meilen (near Zurich) and I was told by a friend that Christoph Blocher (sp?) lives near by. I did not experience Xenophobia or bigotry there either.

I love Switzerland - its people, its culture, its history, its sense of identity, its difficult historical debates. Along with its natural beauty, I love Switzerland for the Einsteins, the Nietzsches, the Calvins, the Dadas, the foreign music composers and artists, the foreign revolutionaries that found home in Switzerland during turbulent eras of human history, and many many things.
colorado, Sep 13, 2007 @ 19:40

Is that just because you recognise or have observed a certain behaviour in people, and comment on it, then you are exactly the same as them!!!

If you take this and apply this to a lot of situations it becomes rediculous, I believe it to be a childish attitude and immature viewpoint, and maybe I was wrong to generalise on my last point when I said I felt that MOST swiss people I have come across (NOT ALL) have been racist, or that the Swiss system defavourises people who are not swiss, and the fact that I have very often been treated differently and more favourably by people in Switzerland then my african friends.

I also believe it is a naieve statement to say that the Swiss are not racist, there will always be patriotic people in any country that are racist, for example:

My home country of England, now many advances have been made in the integration of foreigners and refugees in the UK, the integration of ethnic and other religions, even to the point where at times they have recieved better benefits and treatment then UK citizens. But to say that because of this that English people are not racist, well one only has to look at the BNP and their followers to note that this is not true for all english people.

If commenting on something or the state of something or an observation means that you are exactly the same as the thing you have observed, then we are truly a messed up people, and no longer have the possibility to see something in our fellow human that is not correct and healthy and help each other to become better people, and to make this world a better place, as we no longer have the right to share our observations and evaluations.

This also means that we are lost, and the world is doomed, as nobody can accept the fact that they are not perfect, or have no room to change, as by the fact I have stated something and pointed out something I deem to be wrong makes means that I also am exactly the same, so then nobody can help each other, and no body has a solution, as we are all racist, all xenephobis, all homosexual, all corrupt, all criminals we are everything we see other people to be.
DJ_Symcard, Sep 13, 2007 @ 20:19

comments, Wayne. I have not thought much about this topic. Let me share some instinctive response in the heat of this debate. Please know that what follows is not ironed.

- I agree with you that scapegoating foreigners is improper. Lady justice should focus on the balance, and her eyes should remain wrapped with a cloth.

- Crime is not acceptable or tolerable.

- I am not convinced that the relevant statistics here is "empirical criminology study which shows deportation of jail-severed foreigners/immigrants resulting in reduction of crime rate in any country"

- An alternate statistics may be more relevant: "what percentage of criminals repeat criminal activities after they have served time?"

- Should there be some screening criterion on who is given visa and who is not? Who is reissued visa and who is not? I feel that this is for a local community to decide. If cultural, economic and such enrichment is the motivation, every local community will have different needs.

- It is important to enrich, sustain and further the lives of law respecting members of a community. Crimes cripple this sentiment. Let us not forget the law respecting innocent victim and victim's family. After someone has been hurt or made a victim, emotional catharsis is a genuine human need. Laws should fairly address this as well.
colorado, Sep 13, 2007 @ 20:24

... and the poster was withdrawn. Power to the people.

See the link below on the latest on this issue:

http://www.genevalunch.com/genevalunchrethink/2007/09/christophe-bloc.html

brownshugah, Sep 13, 2007 @ 20:43

Forwarding a link I received in a msg. It is from The Economist.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/certainideasofeurope/2007/09/the_black_sheep_of_swiss_polit.cfm

So, Swiss authorities already have the laws and the power to deport foreign criminals, but they have a discretion to consider the facts.

The new sheep-initiative seeks to make deportation obligatory and automatic.

Strange indeed is this campaign and initiative then; unnecessary if Swiss authorities and judges can be trusted to be methodical and systematic.
colorado, Sep 13, 2007 @ 22:30

As a person of colour I find the posters offensive and I do find it sad that something which can cause offense, hurt, devisiveness and anger can be given such a public and open forum. There is a line between free speech, freedom of political views and the incitement of racial hatred, unrest etc. and I believe that these posters cross the line. Whether ones interpretation is that it is simply to represent the term 'black sheep' - a term which is historically and racially charged in itself- or that it is racist or that it is ok- the one thing that also has to be asked is, is it necessary? Is is necessary to have something that can be so misjudged or open to interpretation which can cause trauma to people of colour. Racism is alive and well and there is little that can sometimes be done to change peoples' ignorance and fear but allowing posters like this to be displayed at the train station for eg. is a tragedy and Switzerland should be ashamed of itself. There is my two cents worth
mattstorm, Sep 14, 2007 @ 00:23

An official report into the process of naturalisation in Switzerland says the current system is discriminatory and in many respects racist.

The report, from Switzerland's Federal Commission on Racial Discrimination, recommends far-reaching changes.

It criticises the practice of allowing members of a community to vote on an individual's citizenship application.

Muslims and people from the Balkans and Africa are the most likely to be rejected, the report points out.

Switzerland has Europe's toughest naturalisation laws. Foreigners must live for 12 years in a Swiss community before they can apply, and being born in Switzerland brings no right to citizenship.

Under the current system, foreigners apply through their local town or village.

They appear before a citizenship committee and answer questions about their desire to be Swiss. After that, they must often be approved by the entire voting community, in a secret ballot, or a show of hands. This practice, the report says, is particularly likely to be distorted by racial discrimination.

It cites the case of a disabled man originally from Kosovo. Although fulfilling all the legal criteria, his application for citizenship was rejected by his community on the grounds that his disability made him a burden on taxpayers, and that he was Muslim.

The report recommends that decisions on citizenship should be decided by an elected executive and not by the community as a whole. But such a move is likely to encounter stiff opposition.

Foreigners are a key issue in the run-up to Switzerland's general election next month.

The right-wing Swiss People's Party, currently leading in the opinion polls, claims Swiss communities have a democratic right to decide who can or cannot be Swiss.

whoopster, Sep 14, 2007 @ 00:30

The report was published by the Swiss Federal Government.

It's official! The Swiss practice institutional racism!!!
whoopster, Sep 14, 2007 @ 00:42

Does that mean an end to the rainbowsheep idea?! I was getting so amused with idea of a Geneva scattered with rainbowsheep....
SimSim, Sep 14, 2007 @ 01:40

Overall impact of the blacksheeping propaganda (scapegoating! more precisely) to Swiss politics and policies toward foreigners may be observed by the election result.
wayne, Sep 14, 2007 @ 10:00

Better that than Blocher's face all over Switzerland! :P
Stef__Granny, Sep 14, 2007 @ 12:01

I see that there are many people (in GLocals) interested in human rights and
peace problems.

It is positive for Geneva who is supposed to be the "City of Human Rights".

We are living crucial moments and often your comments help to increase confidence & open-mindedness in the world.

new_concept, Sep 14, 2007 @ 15:30

I agree most ex-pats probably live here voluntarily but maybe a few are forced here through work/ family/ crisis etc.
tlowrie, Sep 14, 2007 @ 17:23

While we're on the sensitive subject of socks. I found this racist site http://www.blacksocks.ch/
Isn't it shocking how these "black" socks are alway being trodden upon by their wearers?
I think it's time for mass protests and a boycott - or maybe just a "rainbow" sock.

;)

nmcp, Sep 14, 2007 @ 17:34

Mr. Doudou Di?ne (United Nations Special Rapporteur on contemporary forms of racism,
racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance) is
demanding that the posters be withdrawn.
new_concept, Sep 14, 2007 @ 18:30

I'm anti-globalisation. BUT besides that, there is the fact that this semantics business is bothering me. In my time, a deist was a person who believed in the existence of (a) god....and a racist was a person who (first and most important) knew what a race was, snd was absulutely persuaded they existed, like me. I was a lab-technologist, and a lab techologist who has no clue what a race is - you do not want her on call when you have an accident.... It's like a vet who says please leave your cow, when you're handing him a goat.
BUT, apart from this "semantics thing" - I feel like I'm being manipulated by BOTH sides in this black sheep poster affair.

tesha, Sep 15, 2007 @ 20:16

www.ignoranz.ch/item/die-lustigen-schaefchen
SimSim, Sep 16, 2007 @ 01:04

hello everyone:-) to be honest i dont think it is about rasism at all. i think it is just a general opinion of swiss society, that it is foreigners who raise criminal activity in the country. in fact it is also hard to disagree with that. of course it is not about british, greek, russians, or polish, but it is also not about africans, indians or asian people. guess who is the worst criminal element in this country?
i think "black sheep" is an allegory - like a "dark horse"... something to be afraid and be very cautious with. in my opinion - quite obvious.
Loubilou, Sep 17, 2007 @ 00:02

i would say, that still, it was meant to be interpreted in different ways, which would arise an excellent opportunity to give a kick in the ** for those who would "cross the line" in response
Loubilou, Sep 17, 2007 @ 00:26

These are, for me, the reasons why UDC has been successful with his campaign:

1/ the UDC has created a huge buzz around its brand. Brand awareness is tremendously important for anyone who wants to sell anything, as all advertisers know.

2/ taking so much space in the media, the other parties had no opportunities to have their own programs heard or challenge the UDC one. The debates about tax laws, energy taxation or transportation strategies appeared as so less catchy than the passionate “evil racist against good open-minded” debate.

3/ UDC has managed to bring the issues of safety and immigration on the first lines of the political agenda, while it is arguable that they deserve to be before education or ecology for instance.

4/ they have managed to deepen the feeling of insecurity to some voters, playing a nasty game, before they appeared as politically correct and consensual while removing the posters. I do not know anyone who was ready to vote UDC before the posters who will not. I guess a few undecided ones suddenly “realized” that crimes committed by foreigners was an issue to fight against.

5/ last, but very sadly not least, the big victory to me the UDC has won is to make so many of us all less clever than we could be, and much more caricaturalistic in our thoughts patterns than we used to be, and maybe even more aggressive. Never before, I had read so extremist posts on this forum, calling all Swiss racists, or all foreigners angels. Let’s face it. Immigration and crime management are very complex topics, no one can deny. To me, angelism is just the other side of the racist coin, but now a winning one. “Everybody’s beautiful” is a far more positive answer to those questions than racism, I agree. But it’s so idealistic and far from everyday life reality some people live that it becomes quite as stupid as assimilating criminals to black sheep. People are scared, annoyed by new phenomenon in Switzerland as unemployment, noisy groups of teenager hanging late out at night, car robbery, rapes by groups of teens, tags on the walls, class in elementary schools with 28 non French native speakers amongst 30 kids, etc. Answering “there’s no problem”, “it’s all in your head” or “if you say so, you’re a bloody racist” won’t do any good. Life is complex. Criminality is complex. No easy solution can apply



And this is what we, highly educated and globally aware people should do - on top of being better respectful human being on an everyday basis :
- assess the situation seriously: what are the actual laws in every country about the double sentence, and what are their pro and cons
- demonstrate how extremist parties use biased figures to impose a simplistic vision of reality to sell their as simplistic but/ thus ineffective solutions
- develop a public awareness on communication strategies, being it commercial or political, to make lies less easily sellable
Hobbes, Sep 17, 2007 @ 18:06

Seriously this was unacceptable as it's an absolute humiliation to foreigners, simply the advertisement isn’t the major problem here, and the problem is what is behind it.

In any country in the world who have immigrants, they’re treated equally, in the UK, USA, France,…etc, citizens, immigrants or whom ever is living legally in the country are all treated the same way in good & bad, they apply for job they have equal opportunity no matter what colour, race or religion, they do a crime they go to jail like any citizen.

So if Swiss are having this idea in mind & open to discuss kicking a foreigner out of the country (with all his family & maybe friends too) for doing a crime, then they’re being absolutely racists, either they kick out Swiss people too for doing crime or just afford putting foreigners in prison like any other Swiss.

The conclusion is, more than 80% of Swiss population are originally foreigners even if they have Swiss passports so what applies on one applies on all.

I’m not trying to discuss politics but it’s common sense, we are all humans no matter what.

mowvich, Sep 20, 2007 @ 16:02

Immigrants and citizens are not treated "equally" in all countries other than Switzerland...Sure, laws exist which claim to protect against discrimination (in Switzerland as well as in those countries you've listed)but this does not mean that xenophobia does not exist and that equal treatment is automatic. You say equal treatment is automatic in the USA for example...not true. One example, permanent residents (C permit equivalent) cannot vote whereas in many communes in various cantons, C permit holders can now vote...

I suggest that we stop doing what the UDC is accused of doing...generalising that all Swiss are racist and anti-foreigner...otherwise we will become just as bad as the UDC party members themselves.
Tasmin67, Sep 20, 2007 @ 16:15

I'm not accusing all Swiss to be racist as there's loads of nice people which i've met, but it's the UDC party for suggesting this Law & government for not taking proper action.

As you said in some communes (C) permit are now allowed to vote so they're having rights like Citizens, that's good, so if (C) permit holder does a crime, they should go to jail like Citizens too, it's so simple, why kick them out.

This campaign have created fear from foreigners in lots of Swiss people minds, specially the old people, i can see sometimes a look of fear now in the eyes of some people, even to me & i assure you i'm not Black,

mowvich, Sep 20, 2007 @ 16:35

"In any country in the world who have immigrants, they’re treated equally" ?... did you ever try to settle somewhere else than Switzerland, or watched the news ? Ever visited ethnically sorted cities suburbs in France, refugees camps in Africa, pakistanese neigbourghoods in England, Kurd vilages in Turkey or Irak ? Ever tried to get a green card in the US, a work permit in Australia, or a job in Japan ? In Switzerland, a swiss from foreign origins can become Presisent, this is not the case in the US for instance. France and Belgium use or used the "double peine" penalty.

That being said, I'm am not implying that Switzerland should do it. But please refrain yourself from using false arguments against it.
Hobbes, Sep 21, 2007 @ 13:26

...like me...I am white! Equal to those of you with another colour! Those that call themselves 'coloured' in this forum must look like a rainbow! I've never liked that term and those of you that use it are inadvertantly saying 'I'm coloured, different from what should be the right or normal colour!' Or maybe you think you are special and deserve to call yourself coloured...who knows!

Tolerance is not about colour anyway, it's about acceptance of culture, understanding of belief systems and the interpretation of right and wrong. And that poster is very wrong on every level!

The fact that colour is still used as a front for people's differences only shows we are many generations away from seeing (thus never in our lifetime seeing) a change in attitudes.

Think about this...

If there's a mighty power of beings up there somewhere, I bet they're contemplating whether to send another messiah and/or another prophet, but worried that if they do we might all bitch about it for another 2,000 years! Maybe he (or she) will be the colour of a rainbow!

That's my thoughts!

Deano1uk, Sep 21, 2007 @ 14:41

I've been following this for a bit now, and have desperately trying not to wade into the great debate... but as they say, the best way to get rid of a temptation is to give into it... So my 2 cents

Notwithstanding the discussion about the Swiss being xenophobic or not (every country has elements that are xenophobic, and this shows up more when they feel threatened... mostly when their economy takes a downward turn... but a whole new discussion this).

What I find most interesting is that the UDC are a very cany bunch of people. They are manipulating whatever populist sentiment there is to their own ends. And I have to admit (and believe me, I am no fan of the UDC or indeed of Herr Blocher), are playing an incredibly good game of politics. Politics in CH is a rather boring affair... none of the razzmattaz of the US, no fisticuffs in the houses of parliment, no major gaffes from the young kid comparing himself to JFK or misspelling potato... (did I spell that correctly?).

The UDC has been shaking up the scene for the last few months... and has been rarely out of the public eye... their whole strategy seems to be geared towards creating controversy and getting people to talk about them. I'm sure you have to admit they are succeeding... first it was the minarets, then the black sheep, a portrayal of Blocher as a victim and a target for hate (now that is ironic)...

And I'm in no way going to suggest that people stop talking or debating... but let's try and get to the crux of the matter at the same time. Most of us don't agree with the things these guys are saying... but what is there to be done?

I say if they kick me out (even though I have earned my right to residency here legally), let them.. and then they'll kick another hundred out, and then a thousand... The reality of the situation is this... what they propose in essence is not practical... it is unfeasible... and there isn't much they can do about it... in the end whatever outcry they are creating has only one goal... and that is to win as much votes as they can... whether they are going about it the right way or not... Obviously not...

Just remembered, Blocher went to Turkey and in a foreign land, cursed the Swiss laws against racism... and maybe one day this is the man who will have to negotiate ties with other countries... That'll be a hoot! Surrounded by mountains that create a natural defense for the land it may be, but sooner or later even the Swiss will come to realize that treating non-swiss with anything less than respect will mean hardship for themselves... but even then that isn't going to stop a minority from trying

shadow69, Sep 21, 2007 @ 18:04

Absolutley great what you said here, & to be honest i'm one of the people who felt really offended that i even won't wait the results of this elections & law discussions, so i'm moving out of here already, it's not weakness from me but at least i should feel respected & welcome where i live not threatened by laws like this (Even though i ain't a criminal & not planning to be ever).
mowvich, Sep 21, 2007 @ 18:16

So, I read the thread and have been thinking about the topic for a while.

Now, I have to say that as a former politico, the UDC's campaign is brilliant. They can hide behind the fable of the black sheep. The message is multi-level designed propaganda that we have seen for quite a while in the US. There is the obvious black sheep that doesn't fit in ? la Sesame Street-- "one of these things is not like the others." In selected parts of the country the ad has also been run with one of the white sheeps having been knifed while the black sheep is being kicked out of the flag. As I said, it's brilliant propaganda.

There is, of course, a great deal of dispute over the figures used in the campaign -- figures that purportedly show that "foreigners" commit a disproportionate percentage of crimes here in the Confederation. It appears rare that (white) Swiss are confined to jails here, except if they are convicted of killing someone. Meanwhile, we are bombarded with articles about the problems of break-ins supposedly committed by "gypsies," or alleged knifings by "ex-Yugos." But if you somehow "mismanage" the loss of hundreds of millions of dollars" of a cantonal bank (Bank Cantonal de Gen?ve) or push in to bankruptcy the national airline (SwissAir), you won't be seeing the inside of a cell any time soon. As in many countries, justice is not necessarily equal.

As much as I hate the poster, there is a much more important issue of what Blocher has done to Switzerland's Justice Ministry. I believe that the "black sheep" campaign, along with the "Secret plan to get rid of Blocher" ads are designed to divert attention from Blocher's machinations. L'Hebdo has written comprehensively and pretty convincingly of Blocher's successful efforts undermine the independence and functioning of the Swiss Justice system. To me, that is the real issue at stake here.

I agree with many who have said that all the personal attacks on Blocher don't accomplish much and might indeed be helping his cause. Blocher likes to make the point that he'd be more dangerous outside the government than inside. Well, no populist xenophobe has ever come to power without using the government apparatus. Blocher wants to be in the government at all costs. Some Swiss appear to believe that he is standing up for his principles. And who can argue with the idea that criminals who are not citizens should have the right to stay here?

The problem with that argument is that the proposition of the UDC is to expel MINORS who are convicted of crimes AS WELL AS THEIR ENTIRE FAMILY. This is very similar to the Nazi concept of "blood guilt," or that a person's relatives are also responsible for the crime and will suffer reprisals. Yes, criminals should be punished, even if they are minors. But expel their families? And what is the equivalent measure for citizens whose minor children commit just as heinous crimes?

As to questions and comments about whether the Swiss are generally racist and/or xenophobic, I wouldn't hazard to generalize. I have a few great Swiss friends here who are open, warm, funny, and worldly-wise. I would say that the racism and xenophobia that I have seen and experienced here are different from what I have seen and experienced in the US.

I will say that twice in as many years I have seen plain clothes police arrest blacks -- once on the Rue de Lausanne and once in the Old Town. It wasn't the arrest that was unusual. It was that the policemen told the surrounding crowd that the alleged criminals were "drug dealers." I thought that was the job of the prosecutor and the jury, not the police.

And there is a significant neo-nazi movement here in Switzerland that has ties to neo-nazi groups all over the world. Indeed, just a month or so ago, several Africans were attacked by Swiss, French, and British neo-nazis near the train station. Fortunately some off-duty Swiss soldiers intervened.

And in reading the paper, have you ever noticed that when reporting alleged crimes, the national origin of the supposed culprit is always mentioned, even if that person is a naturalized Swiss citizen? At what point does one actually become Swiss? You can say a great deal about US racism and xenophobia, but if you are born on US soil or have a US parent, you are a US citizen. Not so here.

I believe that many Swiss both like and resent expatriates. And where would Switzerland be Without its banking secrets and accompanying foreign capital and investment? Without tourists? Without all of us expats who pay inflated prices for rent, food, and almost every other type of good or service? I'm sure that some might say I can leave if I don't like it. But I know not all Swiss feel that way. And this place has grown on me over the years and it is now my home.

So, what is to be done? Well, expatriates who have lived in Geneva a certain number of years are eligible to vote at least on cantonal issues. And Glocals seems to have a lot of positive energy and positive members. Just having a forum to exchange views on the subject is already a great start. Finally, we expats can put our money where our mouth is. That means we can promote a diverse and multicultural Switzerland with events and debates. That's what I like about this website/network.

For those of you who made it through to this point, thanks for reading my mini-dissertation. I'm glad to see that so many people are interested in the discussion.
Translator, Sep 24, 2007 @ 01:00

I can feel your are becoming a true Swiss indeed ! ;-)

One question here, did the poster with the knifed sheep really existed ? You might have read my dissertation about sheep attitudes above... I'm all puzzled here.
Hobbes, Sep 24, 2007 @ 01:18

Yes, the ad with the knifed sheep was published in select newspapers. I saw a reprint of the ad, I believe, in L'Hebdo. I think it was the issue with the 33 violations of Blocher...
Translator, Sep 24, 2007 @ 05:15

And I think, Hobbes, your post about your Son's experiences and your explanation were really fantastic. I don't think that any of these posters or debates should be banned. Free speech is key to strong democracies. And that way we who are interested will know who the real racists and xenophobes are.... cheers,
Translator, Sep 24, 2007 @ 05:25

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20919945/site/newsweek/
Tasmin67, Sep 24, 2007 @ 14:06

er thing" Nir. Yes and this thing is called: democraty. Amel

Vote for Ali Benouari.


Amel, Sep 24, 2007 @ 21:01

sion."

First thank you for your explanation. You have "opened" my mind. :-)

The expression "black sheep" is here associate with the UDC's and so with a context that gives a new dimension to the basic translation of "black sheep".

Amel

Vote for Ali Benouari
Amel, Sep 24, 2007 @ 21:20

by United States Deportation Policy

A human right issue has brought to my attention due to the black sheep poster discussions about deportation of foreigners after finishing their prison sentence. I shared my previous post” Deporting foreigners after serving behind bars…Justifiable ” to some Human Rights organizations to see how they think about this issue.

One kindly and encouragingly referrers me this report, “Forced Apart" from Human Right Watch. My previous post was correspondent to this special repost which says:

“To be sure, the non-citizens featured in this report are being deported for a reason—they have violated the criminal laws of the United States, making them subject to deportation after they have finished serving their criminal sentences. However, many immigrants being deported from the United States are a far cry from the worst and most violent offenders. Non-citizens have been forced into permanent exile for non-violent misdemeanor offenses, even if they served a short sentence with a perfect record of good conduct. As shown in the case of Mr. Cerami, the 1996 laws have also had sweeping retroactive effects: a criminal offense committed in the 1980s that did not trigger deportation at that time can now render a non-citizen deportable, even if the non-citizen served a prison sentence, successfully completed all terms of probation, and has since lived, worked, and raised a family in the community without ever running into trouble with the law again“. Forced Apart, Families Separated and Immigrants Harmed by United States Deportation Policy . http://hrw.org/reports/2007/us0707/

My intuitive prediction about this Human Rights issue to a certain degree was confirmed by this report. I said “ it unnecessarily tears many immigrants’ families apart all over the world”

Regrettably, this ongoing debate in EU countries seems to leaning toward agreeing on more inclusive and rigid measures in which more immigrant families would be affected by it. I am going to circulate this report to some HRs organizations in Europe. Hope this will bring to their attention to the EC level. I hope EC would be less biased by xenophobia politics in national politics level.

wayne, Sep 25, 2007 @ 00:44

U.S. policies on this are dead wrong. Thankfully the American Civil Liberties Union (www.aclu.org) and other legal advocacy groups are fighting, and in some cases, successfully overturning these heinous policies and practices. Bravo on the great comments and commitment to bringing hard facts to this exchange. V
Translator, Sep 25, 2007 @ 12:20

with the UDC's and so with a context that gives a new dimension to the basic translation of "black sheep".

Amel

Vote for Ali Benouari
Amel, Sep 25, 2007 @ 17:39