This unfortunately happens in every conflict, and not just those involving US troops... the fact that we expect better behaviour from the saviours of the free world is one thing and makes it more shocking to the west , but every basket has the inevitable bad apple, and the fact that he is being brought to justice by the US Gov't means we shoudn't tarnish every soldier with the same brush.

Atrocities, happen every day... and murder is murder, whether perpetrated by a renegade US soldier and his M16, or more often by a machete wielding drug crazed member of the "Lords Army" in Uganda or DR Congo...A sad fact of life , and war, and just as sad is that we forget the latter, and focus on the former because we expect better.

Why expect or accept any atrocity..... thats what we shoudl focus on.

hi charlie!

as regards this kind of atrocity taking place in every conflict and 'not just those involving US troops'... that is absolutely right. as i said in my original post evil has no nationality.

i personally do not see (nor have I ever thought of) the US government as 'the saviours of the world'. I certainly look to the American people, and all free thinking people everywhere for a sense of community though.

by the way...love the profile pic. 

"saviours of the free world" ...IMHO is a self styled title, not one i adhere to either, but ... thats why theyre in every conflict, and why whenever people need "saving" they pop up... rightly or wrongly... Im guessing they need to keep their 500'000 strong Marine Corps busy somehow.

re the pic... thanks

hi tom!

er...always a bit uncomfortable with 'hitler' references. but i know what you're getting at. (it's just that i really don't care whether that killer would be proud or not, you know what I mean?).

let's leave him in the dustbin of history. if there can be said to be any positive to this story it is that this outrageous atrocity was (a) covered by the media and (b) totally condemned by the US army which has prosecuted the people involved.

i know, for every atrocity reported 10 more go unreported. for every criminal caught 100 more escape justice. but you've got to focus on the good in the world to take on the bad.

They did it for fun and had nothing to do with the color of their skin nor religion. Your remark adds nothing but irritation to others.

a news item i saw today

"a fish that looks like hitler" 

apparently there is a fish somewhere i forget where who is the spitting image 

of hitler

It is a well known fact that when a dog bites a man it is normal 

but when a man bites a dog it is not 

Still i find it sad that soldiers are influenced , go mad and do such violent deeds sometimes, it is horrible and sad

war is hell  

I think someone that mentions hitler can speak for himself.

my only problem with the 'hitler' card being produced is that it can sometimes (not here) reduce the debate of subtle and complicated matters to a cartoonish level. again please let me be clear - NOBODY is guilty of that here. 

what i mean is that if (and again NOBODY did this) someone said: 'those guys obviously killed those people because they are nazis' well that would be unhelpful because it would only distract from a meaningful analysis of the true motives of their actions. it would seem (on reading the articles and extracts of court transcripts that have been released so far) that they explained their crimes by saying that they were 'bored'. so their motivation would seem to be completely different from that of hitler for example..

but in my opinion everyone here has added to the debate by sharing their own sincere and genuine feelings. 

Indeed, they were bored and did it for fun. Hitler had completely other motives, a much bigger plan. Maybe he found it slightly entertaining, but not that much at number 1000. At that point I think he also reached the point where he just saw it as work. Thats why I think it doesn't mix well in this discussion. There have and still are a lot more dictators that come closer to this boys behaviour then hitler, but some people just like to drop his name in a discussion.

You are the one calling him H, I call him hitler.

Ok I need to say somthing here - It's an opinion, so take from it what you want:  When you get put into these horrific, complex situations as young soldiers, you really do enter a parallel universe where reality, rules and morality are completely blurred, right or wrong, it's a fact, otherwise it would not be called 'war' or 'conflict' - I'm sure that kid would not have done what he did outside of that situation, say whilst walking home from a day at the office in P&G had that of been his career choice instead - but he didn't choose that, he did what he did and there you go, life jogs on - I've not read the article by the way - The point I'm making is not about that soldier though - It's about those of us in the real world, outside of conflict situations, most of whom have never been in one, that make moral judgements about circumstances they could not possibly ever understand - The true perspective is not that there is a "psychopath in uniform", nor a bunch of brainwashed fanatics causing the problem or making it worse, or whatever people's opinions are - if you DO have that opinion, fine, I'm just taking this opportunity to say that this story, amongst many more like it that get filtered back to reality is that it's simply a situation that is far too complex for any 'normal' person to make moral judgements on without knowing the full facts - It's a bit like showing a cherry and saying "So what does everyone think of this cake?"  So whoever you are in society, whether a jobless tree hugger that spends all day in parc Bastion practising your juggling skills in baggy pants, or a hot CEO jetting about in you're own plane taking credit for everyone elses hard work - unless you've ever experienced the madness of war or conflict like some of us, your best course of action is not necessarily to take sides, although that usually seems like the most logical thing to do... all you're doing is fuelling the hatred either way.  It's a huge, huge mess, getting worse daily and unless you have a solution don't let things you know very little about bother you too much - whether it's war, Satellite TV, or how your annual bonus is calculated!  And in the words of Forrest Gump... that's all I have to say about that!

We should focus on the generals and politicians in their airconditioned offices that send these young men and women off to war and in harms way as a result of lies about WMD etc.

No Thomas they did it CAUSE THEY WERE NAZIS AND FULL OF HATES...

Joe Bageant has a good take on the boys and girls sent off to foreign wars and their chances otherwise in life.

Mash Note for the 'Girl with the Leash'

Military conscription is alive and well in the dominion of the whip

"Good for you, Lynndie England, you chinless, inbred, runty, androgynous backwoods mutt! When you mimed a crotch-shot at that hooded detainee, you reminded us all of what Imperial service should be like: one long S&M tour of the tropics, where every man, woman and child of the conquered peoples exists solely as an object for your pleasure."
-- John Dolan, columnist for the website, Exile

By Joe Bageant

When I saw the above arrogant, piece of witty horseshit, I wanted to go strangle John Dolan myself. Then I came back to the realization that all writing is masturbation, mine included, and that some of us do it with our eyes closed -- as John Dolan does. If he had even one eye open he would have seen the pathos and national hypocrisy represented by "the girl with the leash."

Lynndie England never had a chance. Abu Ghraib, or maybe something even worse (an RPG up the shorts, for instance) was always her destiny. Nearly half of the 800 Americans killed in Iraq to date came from small towns like hers, like mine. Forty-six percent of the American dead in Iraq came from towns of less than 40,000. Yet these towns make up only 25% of our population. Most of the young soldiers were fleeing economically depressed places, or dead end jobs like Lynndie had at the chicken processing plant. These so-called volunteers are part of this nation's de facto draft -- economic conscription. Money is always the best whip to use on the laboring classes. Thirteen hundred a month, a signing bonus and free room and board sure beats the hell out of yanking guts through a chicken's ass. http://www.joebageant.com/joe/2004/06/mash_note_for_t.html

For those prone to criticise white southern Christian fundamentalists and rednecks without first understanding them, I would highly recommend ‘Dear Hunting With Jesus’.  It opens your eyes to their hopeless pitiful situation, the people who exploit them and the chances/choices they have to live the American dream.

More on Bageant, rednecks and liberals

http://americannewsproject.com/videos/longview-deer-hunting-jesus

by Patrick Kennelly

In Kabul, on the same day that Der Spiegel released photos documenting American soldiers posing with the bodies of civilians they murdered, the Transitional Justice Coordinating Group (TJCG), the umbrella organization for NGO’s in Afghanistan that are pursuing transitional justice, gathered Afghan, Australian, American, and German peacemakers to discuss methods to bring peace and security to Afghanistan. The photos present the grim reality that this conflict is characterized by civilian killing and violence.

In 2001, the American led ISAF (International Security Assistance Force), a coalition of the richest nations in the world, began military operations in Afghanistan in response to the 9/11 killing of civilians in New York and Washington. The purpose of the operations was to fight terrorism and seek reprisal for the Taliban’s harboring of Al Qaeda. The operation has turned into a near decade long war on one of the poorest nations in the world.

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/03/24-1

Plus ca change...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre

Daniel Ellsberg has interesting things to say aboout what goes on (or not) in war and body counts etc.

http://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Memoir-Vietnam-Pentagon-Papers/dp/0142003425/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1300985880&sr=1-1#reader_0142003425

Dean, so because we don't have all the facts (are court transcripts not enough to start with?), people should simply let it rest?

Also, apparently, they *knew* that these actions were not authorized in their Army procedures..   I bet the outcome for them will be: "More SOP training, degradation (if possible) and a posting a different place."

However, that's all.

I've spoken to many soldiers and most do say that it is difficult to keep one's humanity in the field.  World War II was probably the end of the "good war" where there was a clear sense of fighting "evil."

That being said, the majority of soldiers do not engage in war crimes. It is often the case that higher ups have a pretty good idea who the problems are, sometimes before they go into the field of conflict.

Most US soldiers and citizens do not want psychopaths in the army.  Recruitment and retention standards have been greatly relaxed primarily because no US President or Congress wants to call for a draft of the general populace. 

That said, judgements do need to be made and carried out.  Time in a military prison is not like Club Fed for the white collar criminals.  

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/24/us/24morlock.html?_r=1&ref=us

No, he's getting 24 years in prison, eligible for parole in 7 under a plea agreement which includes his testimony against fellow brigade members.

From the article:

"A lawyer for Specialist Morlock called to the witness stand a sociologist who had reviewed an internal investigation of the Stryker brigade and its former commander, Col. Harry D. Tunnell. The sociologist, Stjepan Mestrovic, said the documents portrayed a “dysfunctional” brigade and command structure that “created an environment that led to these crimes.”

Lucky chap, considering the potential high treason element of providing the enemy with priceless propaganda material - affecting the whole alliance -, notwithstanding the actual murders and conspiracy. For a proportionality exercise, compare this punishment with the punishment for sharing one movie online (up to 5 years and 150000 USD in fine per infraction).

One can extend that thinking to every sphere of life.  I was attempting to stay on topic.

Well said, FerneyL!

I agree that a large bit of the blame should go on the shoulders of those in the 'air conditioned offices'.

However, the soldiers themselves are also responsible for their actions. When their platoon leader is 'feeling out the guys' by boasting of the horrible things he has done in Iraq and bragging about how easy it would be to kill an innocent person with a grenade, then someone should have stepped up and reported these words, immediately. 

I don't think any of these guys were psychopaths - which is the worst part. They just, as Morlock said, 'lost their moral compass'. Power, especially over a stranger's life, is a heady thing. They were young, stupid, and had guns in their hands. Hardly a great combination.

There is no blame only shame...

FerneyL

Of course, the punishment hardly ever fits the crime, particularly when the prosecutors cut deals for testimony.  Of course the maximum penalty for downloading will hardly ever be administered. As far as I'm concerned, they should all get life without parole.  Then again, I believe Henry Kissinger is a war criminal.

Yes, I do believe that at least some of them were psychopaths or had those tendencies.  The majority of young soldiers don't kill civilians because they have "lost their moral compass."  Some never had a moral compass to begin with.  Young may mean inexperienced but doesn't always mean stupid and callow.  In addition, brigade commanders of this nature get rid of those who are smarter and stronger-willed ones and keep those whom they can dominate.

The army is, indeed, accepting an increasing number of felons and other recruits of questionable backgrounds in order to avoid a general draft.  Why? Because there is no real political support for US participation in any of these wars/conflicts. Every time the topic of the draft comes up, most Members of Congress oppose it because they don't want their sons and daughters placed in harm's way.

At the end of the day, I think the US should withdraw from Afghanistan,  whatever the consequences for Pakistan and the region.

I'm defining it loosely - based off the interviews with his family members. If he was a psychopath, chances are he wouldn't have made it into a combat unit. The fact that there was an ENTIRE group of guys who were committing the same act makes their statistical chance of being psychopaths slim to none. 

I don't really care how Hollywood chooses to define pyschopaths. They also made Charlie Sheen a star, mkay?

Ah, now that is a statement worthy of the most racist Republicans.  Good to know your views.

Dang!  Now I've used up my "R" word quota for the next little while...

Manics, once again, you nail the topic on the head.

Just as we look at a UN intervention, including US forces, taking its peak in Libya, Der Spiegel leaks the photos of what is happening in Afghanistan. Difference is that in Libya there are no ground troops - still, makes you question the intervention and how things might unfold.

I don't know if you remember a few years ago the Iraq rape trophy photos campaign by US soldliers. Practically US soldiers in Iraq were having competition on the number of rape trophy photos they would take. Some were even posted online, I have seen some, as I was writing on the topic. There were thousands of rape photos circulating and soldiers were exchanging them as baseball cards. Just to say things like this happen all the time - and yes, among US troops. (I think Charlie mentioned that already up there - Charlie, by the way, I think we actually met - at St. Patrick's day in 7 Artes we spoke at the bar - I think that was you, no? Orange and friendly, hehe)

Unfortunately, we will keep discovering this kind of cases. The test question is: how are those cases dealt with by the military justice system? (At least with soldiers, the case is clear cut - it goes to court martial. While with private military contractors, it becomes a criminal case and it doesn't go anywhere usually.) So let's see how this is dealt with.

And finally, on the Hitler point: what is happening there is not just plain inhumanity. This is not race- and religion-neutral violence. It might not reach the scale and organization of what I think was referred to, but in my view there is a certain racial and religious component involved. That becomes clear with the use of particular animals at Gitmo and Abu Ghaib.

This is one of the reasons, why there should be a general draft.

Regarding download, even if offtopic, see Jammie Thomas-Rasset vs. Capitol Records (defacto RIAA): third judgment against her at 1.5 million USD for sharing 24 songs, a private individual. Relation to damage done is spurious at best; 8th Amendment re. excessive fines..

The consequences for the population under Taliban control will be quite severe.

These soldiers are getting away very, very lightly. They made recruitment for the enemy potentially significantly easier, amongst other very serious crimes.

Dang. No rhum for you, then. Will Scotch do?

So David, a fan of Obama then? Yes we can, and all that?

Agree with you.... 

Hope they make an example outta that poor excuse of a soldier..... 

ah really? Jeremy Morlock told you so or you managed somehow to go inside his mind?

http://www.thenewstribune.com/2011/03/24/1597839/5th-brigade-dysfunctional-report.html

 http://www.thenewstribune.com/2011/02/25/1559471/gis-dad-reported-afghan-plot.html#storylink=mirelated

Here are two articles which provide more detail on the case.  The first outlines the investigation into the problems with the brigade pre-deployment to Afghanistan.  The second reports about how the father of one of the accused reported the planned killing of civiliansto Army officials before his son was redeployed to Afghanistan.

Get it right, at least.  In the US political system, the President proposes the budget and the Congress approves it.

Never was a rhum drinker. Quaffed Tembo and Simba beer while in Peace Corps Zaire.  Drank Scotch on occasion,in Washington, DC, whilst in smoke-filled rooms where dirty political deals were being cut.  Came to Geneva and drank Chasselas out of those tiny little shot glasses they use au village....Nowadays, fizzy water....  Reading these forums is enough to make one dizzy...

Sir, this is a forum and hence there are no private conversations...

hehehe I liked the Obama brand comment.... Obama seems so Hollywoodesque!!!

I remember during U.S. elections some people were even comparing him to Jesus Christ.... Obama the prophet that heaven sent to earth to save the world in just four years from evil!!!

Let's all hail Obama along with J lo, Angelina jolie, Brad pitt and other rancid stars!

And a polite forum at that, David. 

whoever said that the U.S military is very picky with whoever they admit....

I worked for four years closely with the U.S. military and many soldiers were either minorities that probably didn't have any opportunities to do something else with their lives because of stratified racism in the American society... or just plain old rednecks who just wanted to have a gun and shoot it!

you also had exceptions, people who joined because they truly loved to be a soldier and felt pride in being one!

but I wouldn't call the U.S military picky when it came to selecting its candidates for soldiers.

I think you may have missed the point being made. This article goes to the point I was making about the increase in the US military's recruitment of convicted felons....

http://www.palmcenter.org/press/dadt/releases/military_enlistment_of_felons_has_doubled

Yes, the US military has long been a path out of poverty for many lower-income citizens but the standards today are getting even less "picky."

So they are guilty then. Good to know.

Sorry, meant 'all' guilty.

Not sure they will get off lightly. Time will tell.

Can't vouch for the veracity of this as it is Wikipedia: While 26 U.S. soldiers were initially charged with criminal offenses for their actions at My Lai, only William Calley was convicted of killing 22 villagers. Originally given a life sentence, he served three years under house arrest.

Yes, there is more than enough guilt and blame to pass around.  Of course, Canadians and European nations are all in it as well, in one way or another. 

For more information on allegations of Canadian misconduct in Afghanistan, see this article:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/01/18/military-jtf2-probe.html

Here is another article regarding Canada's support for Kandahar's ruthless Brigade 888:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/house-of-pain-canadas-connection-with-kandahars-ruthl

And that's just with 3 minutes of research.... No country with troops in Afghanistan has "clean hands."  But it's always great to focus the spotlight on the US. Of course this approach highlights the lack of critical thinking and a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of the global battle for resources being fought by all the major powers.

Good to know we have enough rightgeous citizens in our nation to fight the problems in our own country while some of the rest of you ignore the ones in your own, particularly in these forum debates.

The first, Morlock, was sentenced to 24 years. It is likely the others will get more time because they did not cut their deal first with the prosecutor.

The ones who are "getting off very, very lightly" are those who ignored the warning signs about the brigade's problems, even before it deployed to Afghanistan. They may be demoted but they won't serve any jail time and will probably retire with a full pension.

[Of course, when compared to the Swiss justice system, remember that a few years ago Cécile B. shot and killed Eduoard Stern just above a police station in the  Terrassière quarter of Geneva and barely even "served" 2.5 years.]

[On the illegal downloading judgement, the RIAA knows they will never recover the money. She may appeal the judgement. If not, she will declare bankruptcy.  There are greater miscarriages of justice in the US legal system, however, most of them having to do with death penalty and egregious prosecutorial misconduct.  This is one reason that certain states have declared a moratorium on executions.]

Absolutely! I have posted here and at the CBC about the cowardice and complicity of all Federal Canadian political parties on their support for aggression in Afghanistan (and recently Libya) that never attacked Canada.  In fact Canadian troops were guilty or vile torture of Somalians (shall look for the reference but perhaps you already know).  The focus must be on all guilty parties.

In under 3 minutes! thanks wikipedia!

The Somalia Affair was a 1993 military scandal later dubbed "Canada's national shame".[1] It peaked with the brutal beating death of a Somali teenager at the hands of two Canadian soldiers participating in humanitarian efforts in Somalia. The crime, documented by grisly photos, shocked the Canadian public and brought to light internal problems in the Canadian Airborne Regiment. Military leadership came into sharp rebuke after a CBC reporter received altered documents, leading to allegations of a cover up.

Eventually a public inquiry was called. Despite being controversially cut short by the government, the Somalia Inquiry cited problems in the leadership of the Canadian Forces. The affair led to the disbanding of Canada's elite Canadian Airborne Regiment, greatly damaging the morale of the Canadian Forces, and marring the domestic and international reputation of Canadian soldiers. It also led to the immediate reduction of Canadian military spending by nearly 25% from the time of the killing to the inquiry

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia_Affair

Other Canadian military heroes.

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/2010-2011/abovesuspicion/timelinewilliams.html

Guys... war is horrible, violence is horrible, I've seen enough of both, and i will never forget the mental images I have.

But lets please NOT brand every soldier a baby killer, or a murdering bastard... the REAL fact is that most are shit scared of the situations theyre put in (yes they signed up for it, but reality post training only kicks in when you have live fucking rounds coming at you faster than the speed of sound).

Most soldiers do a job, that theyre paid for, dutifully thinking theyre serving thier countries, and protecting people by doing this role.

Situations soldiers are put in, mostly are handled by years of training, so the response is automatic, ...dive for cover, return fire, move, fire again, organise an assault on the attacking position, fire and manouver, drive the force through the enemys position, the defend the taken position..... thats war that most soldiers train for... reality is only really a reality when you run past the body of some one you shot, a high velicity round makes a big hole... its not like the films, there is screaming, there is real blood, a large calibre weapon can take someones head off their shoulders... it doesnt roll away like the films...it explodes.... its about the most disgusting thing a human can see...

Ive seen men attacked by a mob, cut into pieces with machetes, and set on fire.... I couldnt do a thing to stop it, or save him... his screams were louder than the 50 or so drug crazed maniacs attacking him... I had no legal right to intervene, and in any case intervention would have caused more bloodshed.

Whole villages in Africa have been razed to the ground, the men killed brutally, the women raped and in many cases murdered, the babies either drowned, stabbed or taken away....ditto children.

We live in a world where sadly there are very very different views about what is right or wrong, what is murder, and what is acceptable.

What shocks you, will not shock 20 other nationalities.... so when writing posts here, please please remember that we live in a very large world with many different opinions, and not every soldier is a murderer, and not every banker is money laundering thief, and not every nurse is a baby killer, and not every milkman is a rapist, and not every childs doll turns into "Chucky"....

Generalisation doesnt help... Specifics in specific situations are whaqt counts.

That said, the soldier that went "trophy hunting" in Afganistan should be put in front of a firing squad, military sentence in a military court  with military justice for someone who shamed an otherwise proud service.

Now im off, to go try and stop the shakes that this posting has brought on to me.

Hi

I dare to venture into enemy territory and hope that i dont get mean comments about how i write etc instead of the content

( yes translator that means you ) 

I think no one said the obvious, the American soldiers are made up of the poorest and uneducated who see the army as the only way to provide for their families, and as we know ignorance is always a good place for hate and violence though not only...

The worst crimes in society were done by the educated of society in Nazi Germany however these soldiers who treat other human beings as subhuman have obviously not had the benefit of a good education and ability to calculate their deeds.

With this i would like to add that Israel as a shining exemple because it recruits most Israelis with the exception of the ultra religious has soldiers who are there not because they want to but because they have to 

The soldiers in the Israeli army come from a wide spectrum and the education system does address the issues of the arab israeli conflict and if you are in the general system you dont have the idea of demonizing other nations as some cultures have.

The bible belt in the USA is very popular place for recruiting soliders as the poor and uneducated whose only chance to rise is to go make a career in the army, also the poor minorities who may not have had the benefit of a good education for pluralism 

Having said that i do think that regardless of what the people in the air conditioned office decide the soldiers are totally responsible and these disgusting acts should be punished and the soldiers should be taught how to treat civilians with respect.

Yes, lets not forget the conditions the soldiers have, the snipers, the stress, the anxiety but there is no excuse for dehumanizing anyone ,rape or torture, those individuals who do it should be made an exemple and it should indicate of a dire need to educate the soldiers to be human above all

Unfortunately there is a tendancy to imitate the enemy sometimes rather than rise above ,

Lets no forget that the lands in which the soldiers fight it is normal to act in extreme violence towards their own people 

the Soldiers who are fighting are for the most part not only unappreciated but are judged and demonized by people sitting on their computers who have no idea what they have to undergo

lets see that side too, and realize the soldiers are doing for the most part a very unappreciated job and when they die terrible deaths in battle it does not make headlines

lets remember that aspect too    

Star:

I always analyze and criticize your content, such that it is.

As

well

as

your

frequent

use

of

the

space

bar.

That said, I don't know exactly to whom you are referring when you speak of those who criticize from behind their computers.  That is certainly not my case.  I have worked closely with staff of the US Department of Defense, Joint Chiefs of Staff and made presentations on Congressional Relations at West Point and the US Naval War College.  I've also visited soldiers in the field in Germany and worked and partied with US Marines here in Geneva.  Therefore you surely cannot be referring to me.

You make a lot of comments about the US military without any apparent factual basis.  Here is a link that might educate you about socio-economics of the US military: http://www.defense.gov/news/Dec2005/d20051213mythfact.pdf 

I have citied elsewhere evidence from former Israeli soliders in other discussions the problems of the Israeli military. While its recruitment model may be better than that of the US, this fact has not stopped Israeli soldiers and officiers from committing serious human rights abuses.

Most Americans feel it is important to ensure that our military servicemen and women live up to the ideals in our Constitution.  In this argument, I stand by Charlie and some of the comments of Deano1uk.  I honor and respect the contributions of my fellow citizens.  As General Sherman said, "War is hell."

On "Brand Obama"  I smiled at the comment about President Obama being soooooooo Hollywood.  Ooooooooooh, how terrrible!  Only those who have never worked in US politics and policy don't understand that it takes media savvy and money to win an election in a nation of 311,000,000 people. 

In past election cycles, the Democrats put forward patrician millionaires such as Al Gore and John Kerry.  Neither one knew how to create a "brand." As a result, we -- and the world-- got 8 years of Bush.  Am I happy with the system? No.  But Obama over Palin?  Hell,  yes.

@star.

your quote : 'Unfortunately there is a tendancy to imitate the enemy sometimes rather than rise above'.

may i go even further and say there are a minority of people within each country in this world who not only imitate the basest methods of their 'enemy' but seek to distinguish themselves by setting even lower standards in terms of respecting (or not) extremely basic human rights.

as an example let me talk about my own country.  irish catholics were involved in some disgusting violence against completely innocent people (e.g. blowing up a bomb in a london department store). unfortunately exactly the same thing is done by hamas and the israeli army all the time - they don't give a damn for the lives of innocent people who get 'in the way'. 

one example from Human Rights Watch

''On December 27, 2008, Israel launched "Operation Cast Lead" - a 22-day military campaign with the stated aim of suppressing rocket fire from Gaza into Israel. Human Rights Watch documented serious violations of the laws of war by Israel, Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups, some of which amounted to war crimes. In Gaza, more than 700 civilians died in the fighting; in Israel, 3 civilians lost their lives''

http://www.hrw.org/en/middle-eastn-africa/israel-and-occupied-territories

@Manics1984

I just came across this article on today's Guardian website.  The UK MOD recently issued a formal apology for the killing of a 12-year-old Irish girl by a paratrooper in 1976.  The paratrooper was acquitted by a judge sitting with no jury.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/mar/28/ministry-defence-apology-majella-ohare

In the article, the mother said she asked the soldier why he did it.  She said he simply shrugged his shoulders in response.

Although I know it won't bring their daughter back, I wonder whether the family will receive compensation.

@translator: thank you, that is a really interesting article (i've mailed the link on to pals back home).

i'm afraid there are still a lot of families with unanswered questions on both sides of the political divide (Irish and pro-British) in Ireland. But at least now we can talk to each other and recognise that everyone feels the same pain when someone they love is murdered. i could go on about ireland forever, there are still some dirty tricks going on but all in all there is just no comparison to what was happening before. proof that the world can change with enough patience and empathy.

I think Charlie is right in that the experience of war and conflict must be horrendous

I cannot say that I would ever forgive the murderer of my brother if I encountered that person.  I think the desire for revenge -- rather than justice -- is natural and compelling. That's exactly why it must be curbed by law.  As the saying goes, an eye for an eye would leave the world blind.

@translator: yes i know, it is an extremely thorny issue...

Harriet Jacobs 'Incidents in the life of a slave girl' 1861: The narrator gives some advice on what it is like to be consumed by hate for those who have mortally wounded your family (believe me the narrator in this brilliant novel has reason to hate...)

''Reader, did you ever hate? I hope not. I never did but once; and I trust I never shall again. Somebody has called it "the atmosphere of hell;" and I believe it is so''. (from chapter 7, entitled 'The lover').

so the need for revenge is a second abuse inflicted upon the mind of the bereaved, the first being the murder of a loved one. we can't always control murderers but at least we have the option, however tremendously difficult it is, of becoming the one who ends the cycle of violence. that polluting 'atmosphere of hell' will drive a normal person insane eventually. you only have to look at the world to see that.

It could be argued that revenge is solely a human emotion, especially when served cold. In the animal kingdom, its more about "pecking order".

It could also be argued that "peace" is not something that can be sustained in entirity by humans. Not a century has passed without a war, somewhere. And even in our modern world, the downside is that conflict is beamed to us in our living rooms, whether its between nations, tribes, families, or individuals... every day we are witness to violence, and every day we forget the misery that it brings.

Wouldn't the world be a great place if there was no need for soldiers, and no need for police, no need for judges, no need for keys and locks, and no need for punishment.

Realistic???  Not a chance.... not till we are all DNA programmed at birth.

Now the thought of THAT also sends shivvers up my spine.

Maybe.... 

One thing I learned from working close to the American Armed Forces is that they are very stern with their soldiers, and any type of abuse towards civilians or fellow soldiers is HIGHLY PUNISHED!

So these four guys are gonna get it big time!!!!

Translator.... I was the one who said Obama is very Hollywood, and I still think he is, plus very overrated as a president (he even won a nobel peace prize.... for what exactly?)

I don't understand jack of American politics but still think Obama is a mediocre president... what makes things even worst is all those celebrities standing by him creating this hollywoodesque Obama-caricature that truly hasn't amounted to anything special.

I am sorry I hope I don't offend any body, Palin might not be a great choice either but I don't think Obama is gonna go down in history as one of the great American presidents...... (I am talking about Lincoln, Jefferson, Kennedy, CLINTON yes Clinton!)

i totally agree

i think that giving obama the nobel peace prize is a joke 

he was fighting wars in three countries at the time and the number keeps increasing

Sometimes i wonder what are the criterions for politicians

he has charm, brains and good looks but is that so important ?

Manics 

you are a sweet lad but the numbers you quote forget to mention

that the hamas fights over the heads of the population within populated

areas which is probobly the most cowardly act imaginable

What kind of army fights within a heavily populated area?

why place rocket launching pads next to where children live ?

Why shoot their own people ?

The questions are many and as far as Israel, no one is a saint however

at least in Israel if there is wrong doings there are investigations, a very

critical media and a wide spectrum of opinions while Hamas hands out sweets

when a cowardly terrorist slits the throat of a baby

I think there is an ocean of difference between the values of the Hamas

and how it fights its cowardly battles and Israel-

Unfortunately antisemitism, that is right, a constant focus on Israel and

ignoring the war tactics of the Hamas is making people constantly judge

Israel , it is not that simple, the area is tiny and you can not ask them

to please stop sending rockets

President Obama said that if his child had rockets raining down on her 

bedroom he would do everything to stop it-

No one wants innocent killed but the Israeli army unlike the American army 

is made up of people who are not joining the army because they enjoy it 

they are recruited and no one in Israel is teaching to hate others 

if you ever read our writers like Amos Oz you would know a different aspect

the number three is not true 

I dont know where you get your statistics 

I apologize for previous statements however let me tell you 

i would never support any military action that would aim to kill civilians 

i know the army has no choice when the rockets keep falling 

and it is a russian rullete, you may minimize it as you sit behind your computer but for the people in southern israel who live in bunkers some days this is not a joke and since the hamas fights within the populated area 

it is a terrible choice ¨

what would you do ? be a sitting duck and wait for the rocket to fall ? 

or do something about it ?

it is not simple at all and the media simplifies it 

I am just sad Israel is seen in such judgemental eyes

the Indians have a saying 

walk in someone^s shoes for three days and then you can understand them 

better

I dont think anyone is a saint but i do think that the values you are taught 

and practice count for something 

I dont see much hope as long as there is no tolernace for any opinion but 

that of a jihad, a holy war against anyone other than the mainstream 

Hamas 

I regret Israel has to fight on so many fronts

and i too find Israelis very difficult to deal with especailly on this site

where i got  a very vicious letters from the site manager  to stop posting 

i guess translator or marksist were not told to stop posting but i was

and i dont appreciate the mean tone mocking the way i write

I think it would be nice if people practice peace in the way they communicate 

and dont attack other people 

peace love and light

hi star: you asked me where I got my statistics from. I was quoting from a report done by the Israeli Human Rights organisation B'Tselem. here is the website where you can read, in detail, the report for yourself. 

http://www.btselem.org/english/gaza_strip/castlead_operation.asp

here's a quote from the same report that explains how many Palestinian civilians were killed.

'1,389 Palestinians were killed, 759 of whom did not take part in the hostilities. Of these, 318 were minors under age 18. More than 5,300 Palestinians were wounded, 350 of them seriously. Israel also caused enormous damage to residential dwellings, industrial buildings, agriculture and infrastructure for electricity, sanitation, water, and health, which was already on the verge of collapse prior to the operation'

and Israeli civilians were killed too. (3 israeli civilians compared to 759 palestinian civilians). here is the part of the report that condemns the Palestinian violence...

''During the operation, Palestinians fired rockets and mortar shells at Israel, with the declared purpose of striking Israeli civilians. These attacks killed three Israeli civilians and one member of the Israeli security forces, and wounded dozens. Nine soldiers were killed within the Gaza Strip, four by friendly fire. More than 100 soldiers were wounded, one critically and 20 moderately to seriously...''

regards,

manics.

please note the orange highlighting of the word 'killed' comes from the B'Tselem website and was not added by myself.

I understand that you are voicing your opinions.  It would probably be better informed if you knew more about US politics and policy.  What is your basis for saying that Obama is a mediocre president? Very little, apparently. I suppose you simply don't like his style.

Obama did not lobby to receive the Nobel Peace Prize. I don't think he lobbied to receive any other awards, either.  Still, many people did expect him to change the United States overnight.  This cannot and will not happen in a political-economic system as complex as the US.

President Obama was confronted with major crises on both the domestic and international front when he took office, namely the global financial crisis and wars on two fronts. The next US presidential election is in 2012. 

The passage of the health care bill alone will make his administration one of the most significant in the history of the United States.  This development is on a par with the passage of Social Security and Medicare.  Clinton's 8 years did not accomplish anything as significant as this on the domestic front.

In addition, Obama has already appointed two female Supreme Court justices, including the first woman of Latino descent.  It is highly likely he will appoint a third.  This is extremely important for the US justice system.

John --Kennedy, for all his glamour -- much more so than Obama -- for Kennedy was the original Hollywood president -- did not manage to accomplish much, in large part, because he was not in office long enough.  It was, in fact, Lydon Baines  Johnson  who pushed through the majority of civil rights and liberties legislation that changed the United States in a fundamental way.

Senator Edward Kennedy was one of the most productive and formidable legislators of the 20th century and was also responsible for many major and positive changes in health, education and welfare.

Finally, yes, it was a MAJOR accomplishment even to be elected America's first black President.  That may not mean anything to you, but it means a great deal for millions of my fellow citizens, of all races, creeds, and religions.

So, in sum, I would say you are welcome to your opinions. You might want to read a bit more, though. In the scheme of things, time will tell. If Obama wins another term, he will be able to accomplish even more.

I'm not voicing an opinion about this thread's content, just want to say "bravo" to Manics (who started it) for keeping a relaxed balanced tone and to-the-point posts.

It's so easy to get into crazy forum fights on such topics, and to fall into posting long posts that no one reads, but Manics does a cool job of staying cool and to the point. Well done mate. 

Star:

Perhaps if you practiced a bit of what you preached, you might get some kindness in return.  You have characterized people's opinions as anti-semitic and have also made some quite cutting comments about other's statements.

In addition, you rarely, if ever, respond to arguments made and you rarely provide any basis for your statements.  That's fine, if you like to argue that way.  Again, it's not very effective. 

As for mocking you for your fondness of carriage returns, you cannot maintain that that is a serious critique.  Some people get criticized for over-quoting, over-documentation, over-capitalization, over-posting and some for always trying to post the bus to nowhere or the pencil without a point. 

I don't know how you know what my relations with Nir and Oded are and or have been. I've had my share of "love-ins" with the Brothers Ofek.  However, I do respect the fact that it is their site and that the site provides a community service for many people here in Switzerland. So, I do try to keep calm unless provoked.  You may wish to try the same.

Let's see which of us can go the longest without mentioning racism or anti-semitism....

Translator I think Obama started to annoy me after he got the nobel peace prize, for doing what????? absolutely nothing but becoming a brandname and being extremely popular and like most extremely popular things Obama has turned out to be overrated!!!

Then all the support from those Hollywood stars ranging from repulsive talentless Jlo, to the obnoxious Brangelina team, continuing with I can't shut up and stop being annoying Rossie o donnell and with a finishing touch of I suffer a lot because I am a black man in my 5 million dollar mansion Will Smith, and not forgetting about equally annoying Oprah!!!

Then when I thought the level of obnoxious and overrated couldn't go higher he comes out dancing in the Helen Degeneres show.... (Obama keep your presidential posture please, we all know you're cool and down to earth but please act accordingly to a presidential figure.... and less like the popular cool that truly kid in school will ya, you're the US president, not a star in a reality tv show!!!)The biggest let down was the embarrasing way he managed the BP oil spill..... 

It is obvious that Obama is not gonna fix the USA in four years.... that's nearly impossible but nevertheless he is the perfect example of some one who has amounted to absolutely nothing!!!

I think Hillary would have done a better job while also having the IT factor as she would had been the first woman to be president!

If you- yourself -  start your arguementation with "I dont understand jack of American politics" than you should probably stay out of the discussion, and leave it for people who are informed. 

You obviously don't know much about U.S. politics if that is your list of the great presidents.  Try FDR and Wilson - these are presidents whose policies and initiatives shape domestic policy and international relations.

Translator used all kinds of colors, I don't want to be left behind. ;)

Apparently you're missing on the fact that where we are in a public forum aimed at having people express their opinions and if you have enough common sense (which I hope you do) you probably would know that opinions on great presidents are also subjective right?

now if you don't agree with my opinion then simply don't read and ignore it.

Cheers

Thats logically impossible.. I couldn't know I didn't agree with your opinion without having read it, thus making it impossible to 'unread' it. 

Furthermore you obviously missed the point, which was.. if you feel you dont know 'jack' as you so eloquently put it, why waste time on such a public forum.  Sometimes its better to "read' and learn from people who actually are informed on the topic. 

Yeah, but you see, AndyO, where's the substance of your critique? You perhaps did not read the accomplishments I posted. They are MAJOR.

Most of your rant is about Hollywood types you dislike and because Obama did a humorous little two-step shuffle on tv.  He did nothing to embarass himself or the Office of the President.  Throughout the years, US presidents have all done things to show they have the "common" touch.

As for Hillary...well, she is improving, however, her repeated statements during the campaign that she went into to Bosnia under fire had me and many others laughing hysterically. Hillary tried and failed miserably to pass health care during her husband's Administration...Now having been Secretary of State, she will at least have some accomplishments under her belt.

So, you don't like him. But many people don't.   But he is leagues ahead of most all the other US polticians...But this is all off topic...

oh really, are there any white house insiders in this forum? 

Because when I say I don't know jack about American politics I don't mean to say I know less than the rest.... because I honestly doubt any one here truly understands how the complex political system of a complex nation like the United states works!.... so what's a mortal like all of us left to do? just air our opinions on a simple internet forum like this one.

By the way if being an American qualifies one as being an expert on American politics then I'll ask my father about his opinion (he's from New york)

Manics...are you still awake?

Its not my nationality that qualifies me, its my education. 

wow very deep statement!

don't be surprised if it goes down in history!

now with all the due respect that a lady like you deserve, I will retire for the night as I have a very long day ahead of me tomorrow.

Have a very pleasant night Lexilleny.

I worked in the Clinton Administration as well as in the US Congress for a number of years.  I do understand -- extremely well -- how the system works...That's another reason I provide documentation for my arguments.This sometimes helps to inform the debate.

Getting back onto the topic, I do believe that most of these guys will spend signficant amount of time in the US military prison. What I hope is that there will be some disciplinary measures carried out further up  the chain of command.

Was there a point to that?   Truth doesn't require elaboration, often the people who type the most do it because they lack a clear direction or line of thought.  I am very deliberate =)

Where is your evidence for the statement that "[M]ore than any other US president, Obama  has prosecuted truth tellers?"  More than Richard Milhouse Nixon?

I know Representative McKinney. Simply because she is an African American and makes a statement, does not mean that it is true.  She has many, many issues of her own.

Of course the US is going to have a sharp reaction to massive document leaks! Bradley Manning, for whatever his motivations, released a massive amount of classified material.  I do not agree with the conditions under which he is being detained and many other Americans are protesting this as well.

It remains to be seen whether Julian Assange and Wikileaks will handle this material in a responsible and productive manner.

It would be useful during debates  if you could back up your statements with some facts rather than selected opinions. Doing so would provide the basis for an actual debate.

wow you're so clever!

ok moving on....

still waiting for that point?

I agree with McKinney regarding Obama.... of course you're entitled to your opinion and I am to mine... 

I do have one thing to say (since we got off topic), that I can be confident the US Armed forces will punish these soldiers for their actions against Afghan civlians, Once again I had the very memorable opportunity to share a lot of my profesional time alongside American men and woman in uniform and 99% of them were truly outstanding individuals!

The soldiers being discussed DO NOT represent the average American soldier and much less the American Armed Forces..... The US Armed forces trains its soldiers to be proud leaders..... I spent four years very close to them and I can't think of a single negative thing to say about them.

LOL... ok am I high? because you do not make any sense at all!!!

either way.... I wish you a VERY PLEASANT NIGHT.... 

once again.... moving on!

Perhaps.  I prefer to read and research facts when developing an opinion as well as in conversations, especially when dealing with more serious topics.

Seems to me you made some negative comments about US soldiers in the above statement.  Glad to see that you amended your statement.

There is ome information here from the Goldstone report on the Gaza massacre:

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/filmmaker-ken-loach-writer-arundhati-roy-and-nobel-laureate-mairead-maguire-read-from-the-goldstone-report/

And here: http://goldstonefacts.org/

The United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict was a team established by the United Nations Human Rights Council (UNHRC) during the Gaza War as an independent international fact-finding mission to investigate violations of international human rights law and international humanitarian law throughout the Occupied Palestinian Territory, particularly in the occupied Gaza Strip, in connection with the conflict.[1] The mission was established on 3 April 2009, by the President of the UNHRC. Richard Goldstone, a respected international jurist from South Africa,[2] was appointed to head the mission,[1] accompanied by Christine Chinkin of the United Kingdom, Hina Jilani of Pakistan, and Desmond Travers of Ireland.[3]

The mission's final report was released 15 September 2009, and accused both Israel Defense Forces and Palestinian militants of war crimes and possible crimes against humanity.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldstone_Report

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Goldstone

Why are you trying to twist what I said? Are you annoyed because I don't like Obama? well sorry I don't like Obama and it's final you just have to accept it.

I said the US Armed forces are not picky when it comes to selecting its candidates and YOU AGREED WITH ME.

a day later I commented on what a remarkable individuals most American soldiers I met were and now you quote me saying I said something negative something which I will add you agreed with.

Fact is a lot of US soldiers are people with not much opportunities or education and this is a way for them to have a decent life, on the other hand it is a fact for me that most American soldiers I met, which werea lot numberwise were all remarkable individuals.

U.S soldiers = remarkable individuals sacrificing a lot.

Obama = Overrated celebrity.

it's my opinion and you HAVE to accept it.

and this is starting to smell rancid so I will call it quits.

Have a good one Translator.

Norman Finkelstein has interesting things to say (at about the 29 minute point) about Goldstone's background, his initial fear to enter Gaza, his dilemma writing the report as an Israeli supporting Zionist and more.

The whole interview is also interesting because of what Finkelstein describes (after reading 25,000 pages of Ghandi's writing i.e. approximately half) as the true Ghandi and what non-violence meant to Ghandi and how an examination of the British occupation of India and Ghandi's strategy/tactics might inform an approach to the occupation of Palestine.

Also interesting is Finkelstein's take on what it is to do politics i.e. not to change people''s minds/opinions and raise their consciousness but rather to get authorities to act on what the consensus is.

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/norman-finkelstein-democracy-now-interview-march-2010-part-ii/

David Swanson and others writing at Counterpunch would agree with you on Obama.

A Call for Resistance

Is Obama Even Worse Than Bush?

By DAVID SWANSON

http://counterpunch.org/swanson03162011.html

One can not know jack about the day to day practice of politics but still know what are the consequences by observing and reading otherwise we might as well give up voting rights and the electoral system.

Many passionate points being made about President Obama. we could definitely start a new post just on this topic! but here's my two cents...

1. President Bush was despised.

2. President Obama was adored and now he's despised too.

Instead of adoring and despising personalities (which I admit is a tricky thing to avoid doing) I try to think instead about what kind of political system can so consistently produce such distasteful foreign policy irrespective of who happens to be President. It's tempting to vent one's spleen on a name, but much harder to stand back and think, 'why does this KEEP happening no matter who is in charge'? Afghanistan and Jeremy Morlock or Viet Nam and the Mai Lai massacre. It's the same song being sung over and over by a different singer. I guess that's the point I wanted to get at in this post.

Yes, I love that commercial, too. I did, however, notice that your comments toward me became rather hostile after I pointed out on another post Morrissey's comments on the Chinese.  I'm sorry if that embarrassed you.

I respect that people have their own opinions. It is true that sometimes I don't understand when those opinions appear to me to be irrational or unreasoned. 

I am not certain either why you appear to treat challenges and questions to your opinion as hostile. Perhaps you are not used to being questioned and believe that anyone who does so is hostile?

How do you get to wise mind with that frame of reference?

To paraphrase Chomsky you look at the organisation and not the people running them to understand an organisation and what it does.  To understand GM (not the financial arm) you look at the plants and how they are organised and you see they make cars and employees don't reap much of their added value. No need to examine the personal lives of the likes of the President of GM to understand what the GM organisation does and why.. Some have called America a corpocracy and that could be said of many other countries my own included.  Howard Zinn's 'A People's History' describes in great detail the lives of many people we almost never hear about or know anything of. At the same time he does give attention to the affects of corporations on the evolution of the US.  It might be too simplistic to explain everything by just focussing on (large) corporations but their behaviour and the actions of the Military Industrial Complex goes far to explain past and present situations and why plus ca change.... There is obviously more to it than what I am writing but it is a big part of it and much or the American public recognises this but unfortunately (?) focus on individual politicians and government (too large they often say).

Breaking the Silence

http://www.shovrimshtika.org/index_e.asp

Winter Soldiers: decent people can do indecent things (but you knew that already).  And the effects can be last longing (see Stiglitz and Linda Bilmes 'The Three Trillion Dollar War).

AndyO

Have you ever had a discussion with someone and then found your views had changed because you were exposed to a different perspective or additional information? 

I did not twist anything you wrote. I did not disrespect your opinions. I mostly tried to find out why you wrote what you did. I was actually trying to take your views seriously.

On Obama, the sole substantive point you made was about Obama's response to the BP spill crisis.This was a good point.

What I appreciate about FerneyL, Markist, and manics1984 posts (whether or not I agree with their views) is that they appear to want to discuss points, rather than just state opinions.

I hope that I will always be opening to questioning my own opinions and thoughts. I forget sometimes that others are not always willing to do the same.

You have a good day as well.

I would also note that it is both interesting and very revealing that you would use a commercial about an animal (however fictional and humorous) when referring to another human being. That is a form of dehumanization which is not very effective but that says quite a bit about how you perceive challenges to your authority.

Yes, it is much harder to step back and think about these issues rather than simply stating opinions. Questioning the status quo often upsets people.

There is a lot wrong with the way the US projects power and influence around the world.  There is also a lot wrong with the lack of criticism of other nations which are up to the same thing.

Thanks, though, for your thought-provoking posts. Perhaps some people reading this on-going discussion have learned something. I myself am going to read some of these articles and reports in order to learn more.

Of course I use terms such as "appear" and "uncertain" precisely because this is a virtual forum. 

I did, however, in some instances ask you where you got your information. This is not asking for "court-of-law" proof, but because I wanted to read it for myself.  

Of course understanding and judging are two different processes.  If I ask for more information it is not only to challenge but also to try to understand.

I can take and make jokes with the best of them! I am also a Chomskyite when interpreting the use of media by members of the dominant class. I find it highly amusing. 

Hilarious and so true of what so many Republicans startegise to do viz a viz Obama.

Translator I don't have your expertise when it comes to US politics, so I think I am not the most indicated person to discuss this with.

I am a mere mortal and my perception of Obama comes mostly from my very dear American friends and their opinions, plus articles I read and news I see here and there. (I suppose most people form their opinions this way) plus my attention spam is not that good.....

One thing I wanted to tell you is that I commend you for standing up to your beliefs and not being afraid of speak your mind openly, very good quality of yours!

I am gonna move on now, I think I had an Obama overdose for the moment.

Cheers

I also appreciate your willingness to engage in a discussion! You have made some excellent points in other debates which is one reason I try to take your views seriously.

[On a completely unrelated side question, I saw from your profile that you are an expert in food inspection. I saw a local bakery with a bee infestation.  Do you think I should report it or is that basically harmless?]

Decent people do decent things most of the time (I believe) and Catepillar corporation makes bulldozers that destroy houses.

http://www.rachelcorrie.org/

Here are a couple of Noam Chomsky clips that discuss the US political system and also why US is in Afghanistan.

Adding just a bit to the Obama overdose, I would say that people's expectations were/are way out of whack. One has to understand that President Obama is also a product and member of the US ruling class. That said, we know that in America, we can always elect new lows of leadership. I shudder to think what the Tea Party might produce.

[On a completely unrelated side question, I saw from your profile that you are an expert in food inspection. I saw a local bakery with a bee infestation.  Do you think I should report it or is that basically harmless?]

----

You should report it asap, I am not a health inspector in Switzerland in fact I go by the USDA standards and what the American government calls the Food Code.

Insect infestation is insect infestation anywhere regardless of the type of insect or regulations followed though.

Ok, back from bees in bakeries to the topic at hand..

Rolling Stone has done some of the most comprehensive and in-depth reporting of the US military.  The most recent online issue covers the infamous "Kill Team" in Afghanistan as well as photos the Pentagon attempted to censor -- even from Morlock's defense team -- in order to avoid another Abu Garib scandal.

http://www.rollingstone.com/

I would reply a similar situation exists in Canada with the Liberals led by Ignatieff who believes a little bit of torture is not a bad thing and the Conservatives who lower businesss taxes.  The NDP (socialist (sic) labour party) supports Canada's intervention in Libya. No wonder people are disillusioned by our democratic (sic) system and fewer and fewer vote (though Canada has a reasonable eligible voter turnout) in a first to the post system where a minority government voted in by a small popular vote has made significant changes to the way Canada is run and evolving.  Reminds me of a conversation I had with an American liberal philosophy student who said we Canadians are so different from Americans (implying better). I replied if we were in your place we'd do the same. i still believe this.

[Agree with Andy O. That said, wasps and, more rarely, bees are completely normal in the windows of bakeries, as they are attracted to the smell of sugar - like humans are :p. Not sightly, but a few wasp scouts are not considered harmful, as such, where I come from. CH may have different rules. A nest is, of course, another matter entirely.]

I just finished reading the Rolling Stone article. It is a tough read and I could not bear to view all of the photos posted simply because they are so violent. 

One of the most interesting issues to me is how the story came out. It seems that a soldier of the brigade was beaten by Morlock and other key "kill team" members. They beat this soldier and threatened him with worse because he informed on them for smoking hashish in his tent.  A physician's assistant later examined the bruises and informed higher ups. The victim of the beating told about the drugs and soon the rest of the story....

[This was more like, hmmm, will I get stung before I get served?  There were a bunch of 'em...]

Couldn't agree more which might explain the 17 books of his (minus the two volume Political Economy of Human Rights I leant out years back and failed to attempt to recover) on my bookshelves.  Also might explain my bias in viewing and interpreting the world.  I had the pleasure twice (Brussels and Toronto) to hear Chomsky speak.  He admits his public speaking style is boring but I would disagree.  People often ask  him what they should do and he does not have the arrogance to tell people what they must do - people must decide for themselves.

Chomsky writes in numerous forums and I would also recommend Znet.org and Zmag.org

My mistake about Znet.org but Znet can be found here: http://www.zcommunications.org/znet

and Zmag and others here: http://www.zcommunications.org/

Galbraith was often referred to as the greatest Canadian America ever created!

I remember watching a series he produced years ago as a child and was impressed by his intellect.  One impressive observation of his I recently read is the following: John Kenneth Galbraith once remarked on the inherent and self-serving contradiction in these two conclusions. If we help the poor we undermine their initiative we are told. We presume that poverty spurs enterprise. If we reduce the income of the rich we also undermine initiative we are also told. But here we presume that being poorer does not foster greater resourcefulness.

Kudos to you both for citing essential resources for understanding the US political-economy system.

In particular, C. Wright Mills outlines a concept called "interlocking directorates" which is extremely useful in understanding how influence is structured in the US. There is a very clever site that expands upon this idea to show these real world connections: 

http://www.muckety.com/

The Democratic Party fundamental problem w.r.t. foriegn policy stems primarily from the charge that President Truman "lost" China to communism.  With the fall of the Soviet Union and the fall of the Shah, the Republicans began to exploit fears of the rise of Muslim fundamentalism. "Soft on communism" has morphed into "soft on muslim fundamentalism." 

Congressional Republicans have announced a series of hearings on the "infiltration of Muslim radicals" into America.  Unless the Democrats and others have the guts to call this crap for what it is, America will go through another McCarthyesque witch hunt.

And thanks to you!  (Is this a mutual admiration club?).  I shall look at the site to read more about someone I've heard of but know nothing about.

Agree that the Dems have to show some guts but you wil know as well as I some of the pressures against them for doing so. McCarthy got away with it for a long time and ruined many people's careers until he went after some who could fight back.

In the mid- and late 1950s, the attitudes and institutions of McCarthyism slowly weakened. Changing public sentiments had a lot to do with this; the decline of McCarthyism may also be charted through a series of court decisions.

A key figure in the end of the blacklisting of McCarthyism was John Henry Faulk. Host of an afternoon comedy radio show, Faulk was a leftist active in his union, the American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. He was scrutinized by AWARE, Inc., one of the private firms that examined individuals for signs of communist "disloyalty". Marked by AWARE as unfit, he was fired by CBS Radio. Almost uniquely among the many victims of blacklisting, Faulk decided to sue AWARE in 1957 and finally won the case in 1962.[85] With this court decision, the private blacklisters and those who used them were put on notice that they were legally liable for the professional and financial damage they caused. Although some informal blacklisting continued, the private "loyalty checking" agencies were soon a thing of the past.[86] Even before the Faulk verdict, many in Hollywood had decided it was time to break the blacklist. In 1960, Dalton Trumbo, one of the best known members of the Hollywood Ten, was publicly credited with writing the films Exodus and Spartacus.

Much of the undoing of McCarthyism came at the hands of the Supreme Court. As Richard Rovere wrote in his biography of Joseph McCarthy, "[T]he United States Supreme Court took judicial notice of the rents McCarthy was making in the fabric of liberty and thereupon wrote a series of decisions that have made the fabric stronger than before."[87] Two Eisenhower appointees to the court—Earl Warren (who was made Chief Justice) and William J. Brennan, Jr.—proved to be more liberal than Eisenhower had anticipated, and he would later refer to the appointment of Warren as his "biggest mistake".[88]

In 1956, the Supreme Court heard the case of Slochower v. Board of Education. Slochower was a professor at Brooklyn College who had been fired by New York City for invoking the Fifth Amendment when McCarthy's committee questioned him about his past membership in the Communist Party. The court prohibited such actions, ruling "...we must condemn the practice of imputing a sinister meaning to the exercise of a person's constitutional right under the Fifth Amendment.[...] The privilege against self-incrimination would be reduced to a hollow mockery if its exercise could be taken as equivalent either to a confession of guilt or a conclusive presumption of perjury."[89]

Another key decision was in the 1957 case Yates v. United States, in which the convictions of fourteen Communists were reversed. In Justice Black's opinion, he wrote of the original "Smith Act" trials: "The testimony of witnesses is comparatively insignificant. Guilt or innocence may turn on what Marx or Engels or someone else wrote or advocated as much as a hundred years or more ago.[...] When the propriety of obnoxious or unfamiliar view about government is in reality made the crucial issue, [...] prejudice makes conviction inevitable except in the rarest circumstances."[90]

Also in 1957, the Supreme Court ruled on the case of Watkins v. United States, curtailing the power of HUAC to punish uncooperative witnesses by finding them in contempt of Congress. Justice Warren wrote in the decision: "The mere summoning of a witness and compelling him to testify, against his will, about his beliefs, expressions or associations is a measure of governmental interference. And when those forced revelations concern matters that are unorthodox, unpopular, or even hateful to the general public, the reaction in the life of the witness may be disastrous."[91]

In its 1958 decision in Kent v. Dulles, the Supreme Court halted the State Department from using the authority of its own regulations to refuse or revoke passports based on an applicant's communist beliefs or associations.[92]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism#Decline

Some were brave refusing to name names like Arthur Miller: 

When Miller attended the hearing, to which Monroe accompanied him, risking her own career,[9] he gave the committee a detailed account of his political activities (leaving out the fact that he was a communist party member). Reneging on the chairman's promise, the committee asked him to reveal the names of friends and colleagues who had participated in similar activities.[22] Miller refused to comply with the request, saying "I could not use the name of another person and bring trouble on him."[22] As a result a judge found Miller guilty of contempt of Congress in May 1957. Miller sentenced to a 500 dollars fine or thirty days in prison, blacklisted, and disallowed a U.S. passport.[2] In 1958 his conviction was overturned by the court of appeals, which ruled that Miller had been misled by the chairman of the HUAC.[2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Miller#1956.E2.80.931964

Hopefully someone will stand up to the hypocrisy of Peter King

http://www.counterpunch.org/moloney12022010.html

It may well be but that was not the case in this situation.  The writer was responding to a critique made based upon nationality.

Being educated can imply many things, most of important of which is willingness to continue to learn outside of the classroom.  One can be proud of one's education, particularly if it was self-financed.

Shock! Horror!

I do, however, find it amusing that some people like to stereotype Americans as ignorant but when we prove them wrong then we're arrogant....  

Sure, some Americans are both,  but then again, so are many other peoples...

Well, don't take it personally. But isn't that exactly what you're doing?

And translator - couldn't agree more!

It is also pointless and cocky to spout out uninformed opinions. 

You're welcome.

Translator. There you go, being all ignorant again. (Or are you being arrogant now?)

Well, I'd take the time to figure it out, but I've got very, very important things to do as well. 

Thank you (squared)

(-: ... my troll detector is flashing red ... :-)

Are you certain?  You promised to leave before.... Thank you for allowing us to continue the discussion. It was almost back on track before you intervened so helpfully.

We now return to our previously scheduled debate...

This is almost comedic. 

I didn't flaunt my education, It was inferred in the previous post that my only knowledge on the topic was based on my nationality, to which I offered a simple and consise explaination that this was not the case.   If you interpret my answer  that I have an education (on the subject matter at hand) as  cocky, perhaps you should deal with your own insecurity or inadequecies.. at why such a simple answer might tug at your own ego (At this point im attempting to be disrespectful.. is it working???)  A cocky answer would have been to list the degrees and qualifying characteristics in a chronological order, but I felt that might be a bit boring and off topic

If you think a dispspectful comment is asking someone why they would contribute after making  a disclaimer that they were ill informed, than you must spend alot of time being offended.  I simply asked what the point was of contributing if you openly admit you lack the knowledge to contribute?  Had that disclaimer not been put forth, I would have had nothing to say. Perhaps when your country, and your leaders, and your friends, family, and coworkers, and all the other wonderful service men and women who protect the rights and freedoms my countrymen and I enjoy is being criticized by someone who "doesnt know jack" of the subject matter, you may feel the need to point out that if they don't know it, and they don't understand it, perhaps they shouldn't be judging it. 

Difference of opinion is welcomed..It's educating and more often than not entertaining.  It's particularly appreciated when its followed by relevant theory and/or analysis.  My point was, if you feel you don't have subject matter on it, perhaps you should state what it is you do know, and explain it.. not lay out a simple judgement

I don't expect a reply to this, after all you are far too busy.

Gee, we were almost back on topic.

I am going to tie-in the "interventions" of xutba b to the topic to show why it is important to be fearless in questioning and challenging points of view.

If one reads the article in the Rolling Stone, one can see how the majority of the soldier of the Stryker Brigade refused to question or challenge the morality of the sitution. Sgt. Calvin Gibbs, the "kill team" leader dominated and intimidated his colleagues. He also encouraged them to take parts of human remains as trophies. Morlock and others under Giibbs did not question him. Many other people -- including higher ups  -- knew or suspected what was happening but said nothing.  The army had scores of photos but "feared" another Abu Garib scandal.  So, in the end, there was a "diktat" of "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" until the physicians assistant reported the brutalization of one of Morlocks fellows.

In every day life as well as international conflicts one will often encounter people who don't want their opinions, statements and actions challenged.

Now, as to "diktat," there are other kinds of "diktat" that can be seen on glocals:

a) those who believe we shouldn't criticize Switzerland;

b) those who say they will not allow (!) any discussion about nazis because we don't know how it feels to have had a relative killed by nazis;

c) those who say we should never criticize Israel, to name a few.

This is a discussion. One would hope that we all could learn from each other without taking offense when questions are asked and statements challenged.

Thanks again to all who continue in that spirit.

Sincerely,

Translator

(card-carrying member of the Sisterhood of Women Who Take Their Continuing Education Seriously and Who Have a Wicked Sense of Humor)

They might well have done it for fun and I tend to agree with that line of thinking when you look at the fun Morlock enjoyed before joining the military.

"Before the military found itself short of troops in Afghanistan and Iraq, Morlock was the kind of bad-news kid whom the Army might have passed on. He grew up not far from Sarah Palin in Wasilla, Alaska; his sister hung out with Bristol, and Morlock played hockey against Track. In those days, he was constantly in trouble: getting drunk and into fights, driving without a license, leaving the scene of a serious car accident. Even after he joined the Army, Morlock continued to get into trouble. In 2009, a month before he deployed to Afghanistan, he was charged with disorderly conduct after burning his wife with a cigarette. After he arrived in Afghanistan, he did any drug he could get his hands on: opium, hash, Ambien, amitriptyline, flexeril, phenergan, codeine, trazodone".

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-kill-team-20110327?page=5

Despite the horrors of war argument (with which I agree - look at the incidence of depression, PTSD, suicide, substance abuse, partner abuse etc. when these guys get home from the free fire range) many of these atrocities were staged (see Rolling Stone) and not done during combat.

Hi Guys,

Don't want to get killed again, but isn't that Goldstone guy wanting to retract the accusations of the report? 

Regards,

Sarah xxx

No killing here, Sarah, just discussion     

You are correct, however, the other authors reject that and it was the work of a commission rather than a single individual...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/14/goldstone-report-history?INTCMP=SRCH

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/14/un-gaza-report-authors-goldstone?INTCMP=SRCH

This article explains that -- at least in part -- Justice Goldstone was able to "reconsider" his conclusions based upon data provided, only belatedly, by the Israeli government. 

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/richard-goldstone-is-a-noble-man-1.353946

http://www.tikkun.org/nextgen/goldstone-and-the-israelis-an-analysis-by-uri-avnery

http://www.tikkun.org/nextgen/rethinking-goldstone

Sorry for "killing" you with links, Sarah... Have a great weekend...

Goldstone's calculated retraction is an adoption of "the Israeli position that any misdeeds during the Gaza assault were caused by individual deviants, not by policies or rules of engagement ordered by military leaders," according to George Bisharat, professor at the Hastings College of the Law (as reported by the San Francisco Chronicle, April 7). Bisharat added, "Yet the original report never accused Israel of widespread deliberate attacks on civilians, and thus Goldstone retracted a claim that had never been made. Most of its essential findings remain unchallenged."

John Dugard, professor of law at the University of Pretoria and former UN Special Rapporteur on Human Rights in the occupied Palestinian territory agrees. "Richard Goldstone is a former judge and he knows full well that a fact-finding report by four persons, of whom he was only one, like the judgment of a court of law, cannot be changed by the subsequent reflections of a single member of the committee."
http://counterpunch.org/baroud04152011.html

“BACK TO poor Goldstone. After the publication of his commission’s report, his life became hell.

The full fury of the Jewish ghetto against traitors from its midst was turned on him. Jews objected to his attending his grandson’s Bar Mitzvah. His friends turned away from him, He was ostracized by all the people he valued.

So he searched his soul and found that he had been wrong all along. His findings were one-sided. He would have found differently if he had heard the Israeli side of the story. The Israeli army has conducted honest investigations into the allegations, while the barbarous Hamas has not conducted any investigations at all into their obvious war crimes.

So when was Goldstone wrong? The first or the second time?

The answer is, alas, that he was wrong both times”.

Altogether, Goldstone has now paved the way for another Cast Lead operation which will be far worse.

I expect , however, that he can now pray in any synagogue he chooses”. http://counterpunch.org/avnery04122011.html

Also the ever hypocritical, lying, plagiarising Harvard law professor Dershowitz went so far as to compare Goldstone to Mengele!!!  Goldstone was no saint - who is but this is typical of the sort of smear campaign and pressure that comes to bear on anyone who utters a word of criticism of any holy state.

Although commonly referred to in the press etc. as the ‘Goldstone Inquiry’ or ‘Goldstone Report’ it was actually  the Report of the United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict and can be found here:

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/specialsession/9/factfindingmission.htm

Paying attention to the Methodology we can see that again as popularly expressed in the press this process did not just involve the Mission talking to Hamas and the State of Israel but to countless other organisations, victims, the reviewing of documents, videos, satellite imagery etc. but received no cooperation from the state of Israel (see p. 15 of Executive Summary and Methodology section pp. 41-45). 

Here is an interesting excerpt: 

D. Consultation with the parties

173. The Mission received documentation related to its mandate from the Palestinian Authority. During its visits in Gaza, the Mission was provided with significant material and documentation by the Gaza authorities. On 29 July, it received, through UN Watch, a paper5 on the military operations in Gaza that sets out the Government of Israel’s position on many issues investigated by the Mission.

174. During its meetings in Gaza, Amman and Geneva, the Mission discussed matters within its mandate with Palestinian counterparts. While no cooperation was received from the Government of Israel, the Mission met a number of Israeli citizens formerly in senior Government positions.

175. In order to provide the parties concerned with an opportunity to submit additional relevant information and express their position and respond to allegations, the Mission also submitted comprehensive lists of questions to the Government of Israel, the Palestinian Authority and the Gaza authorities in advance of completing its analysis and findings. The Mission received replies from the Palestinian Authority and the Gaza authorities but not from Israel.

ok, reviewed them all now and still alive , thanks for the links, videos to both Marxist and Translator and also other people who posted.

Interesting that Hamas was also accused of war crimes... detail I did not know... also found the following interesting: quoting from Rabbi Michael Lerner: Neverthelesss, Uri Avnery has a very important point in arguing that war itself is such a violation of human rights that the notion that we can only protect “innocent civilians” is itself a problematic retreat for those who know that the “legal” murdering that takes place in wars is itself fundamentally immoral.  

Thought that quote is also relevant for the forum on the war in Libya by the way....

With regards to soldiers committing inhumane acts; war is fueled with hatred and hatred can lead to limitless acts. Would I be better myself if I had been in their place, seeing and hearing from atrocities daily? Not sure, who would?Why aren't the politicians paying for war atrocities and suffering that they caused, in particular when the concerned war is not a defensive war - because surely from their safe office desks, in their comfortable, luxurious houses.... They took the decision, so they should be taking more responsibility.

@marksist re: Dershowitz: the dr. king teaching I referred to in another post comes in handy...you must be wise as serpents and gentle as doves, that is, be peace loving, peace spreading people. the only weapon you need to arm yourself with is critical thinking.

here's chomsky debating dershowitz putting dr. king's words into practise. 

p.s. - what dershowitz did to finkelstein...the epithet ''wrapped in shamelessness with your mind forever on profit'' from bk 1 of the Iliad comes to mind.

Here are the general and "about" links to Cspan, the key public access cable resource for researching essential facts about US politics, government,

http://www.cspan.org/

http://www.cspan.org/About/About-C-SPAN/

The granddaddy of research sites about US history, government, politics, legislation,  music, photos, you name it, can be found at the Library of Congress website.  Lots of great  resource material if you are a student, teacher or just an avid reader...

http://www.loc.gov/about/mission.html

The Afghanistan war is many stories and not only about killing for sport.  There is killing because of an exaggerated faith in technology coupled with remoteness from the field of battle as the LA Times article about drone deaths and injuries in an early 2010 attack points out: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-afghanistan-drone-20110410,0,2818134,full.story

Franklin “Chuck” Spinney,  a former military analyst for the Pentagon puts this all in perspective (including the use in Libya) in this article: Pakistanizing the Libyan War http://counterpunch.org/spinney04222011.html

Also excellent to understand the conditions under which American soldiers have to operate is the documentary Restrepo by the recently killed in Libya filmaker Tim Hetherington.  Here is an interview with Hetherington about why he made the film: http://grittv.org/2010/06/19/tim-hetherington-restrepo/ and the reaction of his friend a colleague: http://grittv.org/2011/04/22/christopher-anderson-remembering-tim-hetherington/