" we received consistent feedback from folks who participated in our previous Musical Chairs Dinner,
saying that most of them (not all) feel more comfortable around people who are - more or less - in their own own age range." ( race, colour, religeon, sexual persuation, sex, age, etc. etc) where does it stop?
it's simply disgusting that people who don't "feel comfortable" with certain others are interested in joining glocals, which is all about mixing in with the community. what say you Nir?
" we received consistent feedback from folks who participated in our previous Musical Chairs Dinner,
saying that most of them (not all) feel more comfortable around people who are - more or less - in their own own age range." ( race, colour, religeon, sexual persuation, sex, age, etc. etc) where does it stop?
it's simply disgusting that people who don't "feel comfortable" with certain others are interested in joining glocals, which is all about mixing in with the community. what say you Nir?
epicure, Nov 28, 2008 @ 10:08
Here's what I think (and you know it well already cos I answered you last week, when you sent me a an email that was just a bit out-of-control about it):
1. We received feedback from our members that most of them enjoy more to meet people from their own age bracket. This came both from younger and from less young members. I can understand it: I imagine that someone who is 30 (for example) would more enjoy socialising with others in his/her age range than with folks who are way younger or way older. And vice versa. It might not be 'ideall', but let's face it - it's reality for most folks.
2. The above feedback surely does not represent ALL our members, but it was so consistant that we believe it represents MOST of them.
3. Based on the feedback, we thoght it would make sense to have different Musical Chairs Dinners for different age groups. So we'll have dinners for age 25-39 (which is our core member base), ages 35-45, ages 40+, and maybe even an 'open for all ages' dinner. etc. We're now working on it.
4. We are not excluding any ages, we're simply grouping ages together, cos this seems to be what most members enjoy most.
Last, I think that you comparing the WRGFM ad (which says basicly 'only whites'), to the 'events by age groups' approach is, by-far, not a right comparison...
Nir
Here's what I think (and you know it well already cos I answered you last week, when you sent me a an email that was just a bit out-of-control about it):
1. We received feedback from our members that most of them enjoy more to meet people from their own age bracket. This came both from younger and from less young members. I can understand it: I imagine that someone who is 30 (for example) would more enjoy socialising with others in his/her age range than with folks who are way younger or way older. And vice versa. It might not be 'ideall', but let's face it - it's reality for most folks.
2. The above feedback surely does not represent ALL our members, but it was so consistant that we believe it represents MOST of them.
3. Based on the feedback, we thoght it would make sense to have different Musical Chairs Dinners for different age groups. So we'll have dinners for age 25-39 (which is our core member base), ages 35-45, ages 40+, and maybe even an 'open for all ages' dinner. etc. We're now working on it.
4. We are not excluding any ages, we're simply grouping ages together, cos this seems to be what most members enjoy most.
Last, I think that you comparing the WRGFM ad (which says basicly 'only whites'), to the 'events by age groups' approach is, by-far, not a right comparison...
Nir
Nir Ofek, Nov 28, 2008 @ 11:12
as for all your explanations and justifications for your point of view, i think you've missed the point. why should you take it upon yourself to discriminate for others. let those who only prefer to be "comfortable" make their own conclusions. if you want to organise a dinner for 30-35 year olds, just contact them directly. i could say that i am not comfortable with your ad for this event, and there may be many others who feel the same, so, are you going to say, you no longer will put up ads that may make others uncomfortable ? probably not, you will continue to believe that what you do is fine.
but here is the crux of the matter.....what is it that makes some people "uncomfortable" with others who are not in their age range??? it can't be the digits, so it must be the association of age to: personality, behaviour, appearance, etc. AND this is exactly my point. all these are prejudgements. I'm sure you see the point. the only rationalisation is that some people's previous life experiences have maybe led them to believe that people outside their age range have made them feel uncomforatable, therefore best not find new experiences, and risk discomfort. well, it's their choice......BUT NOT YOUR'S NIR, to do it for them. they can simply decide, not to sign up. and you know what ? most people are not like that, here on glocals. i just don't think it's a behaviour worth promoting or encouraging.
as for all your explanations and justifications for your point of view, i think you've missed the point. why should you take it upon yourself to discriminate for others. let those who only prefer to be "comfortable" make their own conclusions. if you want to organise a dinner for 30-35 year olds, just contact them directly. i could say that i am not comfortable with your ad for this event, and there may be many others who feel the same, so, are you going to say, you no longer will put up ads that may make others uncomfortable ? probably not, you will continue to believe that what you do is fine.
but here is the crux of the matter.....what is it that makes some people "uncomfortable" with others who are not in their age range??? it can't be the digits, so it must be the association of age to: personality, behaviour, appearance, etc. AND this is exactly my point. all these are prejudgements. I'm sure you see the point. the only rationalisation is that some people's previous life experiences have maybe led them to believe that people outside their age range have made them feel uncomforatable, therefore best not find new experiences, and risk discomfort. well, it's their choice......BUT NOT YOUR'S NIR, to do it for them. they can simply decide, not to sign up. and you know what ? most people are not like that, here on glocals. i just don't think it's a behaviour worth promoting or encouraging.
epicure, Nov 28, 2008 @ 11:53
I mean, sure company and regies are not allowed to discriminate on sex age or race ... only on the level of your earnings, but when it comes to a private ad ... even thou it's really unfair, the person subletting the place has the right to choose who she or he wants to give the apartment to. I had the same experiences as a student, when people subletting rooms or apartments will give it to girls rather then boys (since they tend to be neater) and they'd decline your application simply because you gave them a 'messy' impression. In the end it's their furniture you might break ... and let's not forget 90% of the time subletting a furnished place it's an 'unofficial' deal.
People are racist sometimes and life is unfair ... but unless they are breaking a law ... too bad for them: they're limiting themselves to a smaller consumer base.
Vale
I mean, sure company and regies are not allowed to discriminate on sex age or race ... only on the level of your earnings, but when it comes to a private ad ... even thou it's really unfair, the person subletting the place has the right to choose who she or he wants to give the apartment to. I had the same experiences as a student, when people subletting rooms or apartments will give it to girls rather then boys (since they tend to be neater) and they'd decline your application simply because you gave them a 'messy' impression. In the end it's their furniture you might break ... and let's not forget 90% of the time subletting a furnished place it's an 'unofficial' deal.
People are racist sometimes and life is unfair ... but unless they are breaking a law ... too bad for them: they're limiting themselves to a smaller consumer base.
Vale
Hoiling, Nov 28, 2008 @ 13:42
My view on the world regarding this 2 points above.
1) why shouly you take it upone yourself to discrimante: well when I organize and event usually is also for my own pleasure and pleasure of other people joining. IF i think based on feedback that most of the people like to socialize with people in their own age range, or if I myself do like that the most ... I will make an ad for an event for people in my age -group, because that's what I enjoy the most. Now, I am saying age group, but that can be music taste, food taste, litterature taste ... Just to give you an example: If I want to have an evening chatting with people about how awsome is the last Guns and Roses CD ... I will mark the event: FOR ROCK MUSIC lovers ... because I really am not that much into debating IF rock music is music at all .... OR if I want to talk about kids and babies, I will name my event for people that have babies/work with babies are interested and can share experiences. Now, some people, for some activities like better to mingle with people their own age, and I think that's just fair.
2) on why people like to mingle with people their own age: I am personally in the 25-30 age group and I do like to mingle, usually and mostly but not only with people in my age group. it depends on the circumstance and it has nothing to do with pregiudices.
Again, some examples to help you understand what people like me might think:
- If i am at a nice BIG croweded event, like wine and tapas, where I mingles with people in the room, chit chat and get to know new people: i don't care about what age people have, it's all about meeting new people, younger or older .... just to socialize
- If I am going to a bar to watch football or stand up comedy ... again, I don't care about the age of the people I am with ,as long as they like football or comedy. I guarantee you, there's nothing worse then watching football with your close friends or people your age, if they are not at all interested in the game and keep talking (same goes for a classical concert ... you get the point)
-If i am going to an event where there's a limited number of people, where the main point of the evening is talking (and not just saying hi and move on) and having discussions with those people (and even more if I am going to be stuck at a table with those people for at least 30mints at the time ...) .... then I'd like to be sure that the people I will meet will talk about general topics that interest me or things I can relate to. Now, it would be ideal to have dinner for people that like salsa, football and reading novels, (so I know i will have interesting discussions ....) BUT when that's not possible ... most people like me tend to go by age group as a sign of 'having things in common, or experience we can relate to'. And that goes for both ends of the age group. I'd not like to be stuck at a dinner with a bunch of 19years old talking about school, as much as I'd find not very interesting or stimulating for conversation being at a talbe with people that are talking about i don't know .. how things were tougher during the war (it's a joke, i dont mean that all older people are boring ...) ... UNLESS I am told before that that could be the case, so I can choose IF i am in the mood for that, or just want to meet other almost 30 folks like me that try to juggle work, vacation and maybe, potentially kids.
I don't know if what I wanted to say came across or not, I simply think that the more choices people have (their own age group, another age group, mixed age groups...)the more chances they have that they will enjoy the activity.
Vale
My view on the world regarding this 2 points above.
1) why shouly you take it upone yourself to discrimante: well when I organize and event usually is also for my own pleasure and pleasure of other people joining. IF i think based on feedback that most of the people like to socialize with people in their own age range, or if I myself do like that the most ... I will make an ad for an event for people in my age -group, because that's what I enjoy the most. Now, I am saying age group, but that can be music taste, food taste, litterature taste ... Just to give you an example: If I want to have an evening chatting with people about how awsome is the last Guns and Roses CD ... I will mark the event: FOR ROCK MUSIC lovers ... because I really am not that much into debating IF rock music is music at all .... OR if I want to talk about kids and babies, I will name my event for people that have babies/work with babies are interested and can share experiences. Now, some people, for some activities like better to mingle with people their own age, and I think that's just fair.
2) on why people like to mingle with people their own age: I am personally in the 25-30 age group and I do like to mingle, usually and mostly but not only with people in my age group. it depends on the circumstance and it has nothing to do with pregiudices.
Again, some examples to help you understand what people like me might think:
- If i am at a nice BIG croweded event, like wine and tapas, where I mingles with people in the room, chit chat and get to know new people: i don't care about what age people have, it's all about meeting new people, younger or older .... just to socialize
- If I am going to a bar to watch football or stand up comedy ... again, I don't care about the age of the people I am with ,as long as they like football or comedy. I guarantee you, there's nothing worse then watching football with your close friends or people your age, if they are not at all interested in the game and keep talking (same goes for a classical concert ... you get the point)
-If i am going to an event where there's a limited number of people, where the main point of the evening is talking (and not just saying hi and move on) and having discussions with those people (and even more if I am going to be stuck at a table with those people for at least 30mints at the time ...) .... then I'd like to be sure that the people I will meet will talk about general topics that interest me or things I can relate to. Now, it would be ideal to have dinner for people that like salsa, football and reading novels, (so I know i will have interesting discussions ....) BUT when that's not possible ... most people like me tend to go by age group as a sign of 'having things in common, or experience we can relate to'. And that goes for both ends of the age group. I'd not like to be stuck at a dinner with a bunch of 19years old talking about school, as much as I'd find not very interesting or stimulating for conversation being at a talbe with people that are talking about i don't know .. how things were tougher during the war (it's a joke, i dont mean that all older people are boring ...) ... UNLESS I am told before that that could be the case, so I can choose IF i am in the mood for that, or just want to meet other almost 30 folks like me that try to juggle work, vacation and maybe, potentially kids.
I don't know if what I wanted to say came across or not, I simply think that the more choices people have (their own age group, another age group, mixed age groups...)the more chances they have that they will enjoy the activity.
Vale
Hoiling, Nov 28, 2008 @ 14:00
“2. Who is glocals.com for? No one on glocals cares if your skin color is black or white or purple, if you're gay or straight, or if you drive a BMW or a bike. If you're friendly, with an open international mind, and over 23: you're welcome to join! “
And when you want to join a glocals.com organized event it is stated that:
“Why is this Musical Chairs Dinner limited to ages 25-39? Because we received consistent feedback from folks who participated in our previous Musical Chairs Dinner, saying that most of them (not all) feel more comfortable around people who are - more or less - in their own age range.”
Well, I cannot see the match – and I am not talking about activities organized by individual members. I think that glocals.com events should be open to the whole glocals.com community – without discrimination. Including the Musical chair dinners - do not forget that the vast majority of glocals are cosmopolitans with a wide experience and can easily find an interesting dinner topic. And glocals.com is not supposed to be a dating site……….
“2. Who is glocals.com for? No one on glocals cares if your skin color is black or white or purple, if you're gay or straight, or if you drive a BMW or a bike. If you're friendly, with an open international mind, and over 23: you're welcome to join! “
And when you want to join a glocals.com organized event it is stated that:
“Why is this Musical Chairs Dinner limited to ages 25-39? Because we received consistent feedback from folks who participated in our previous Musical Chairs Dinner, saying that most of them (not all) feel more comfortable around people who are - more or less - in their own age range.”
Well, I cannot see the match – and I am not talking about activities organized by individual members. I think that glocals.com events should be open to the whole glocals.com community – without discrimination. Including the Musical chair dinners - do not forget that the vast majority of glocals are cosmopolitans with a wide experience and can easily find an interesting dinner topic. And glocals.com is not supposed to be a dating site……….
haegar, Nov 28, 2008 @ 14:38
A great evening out with women full of discretion: Men only need apply. All ages, races ok but must meet certain height, weight & income level requirements, and own a fast car, can cook like Ferran Adria, look like G. Clooney and have an impeccable taste in the finer things in life. To apply send resumes with photos and prior yr tax return. oh, and bring your lawyer along :P
A great evening out with women full of discretion: Men only need apply. All ages, races ok but must meet certain height, weight & income level requirements, and own a fast car, can cook like Ferran Adria, look like G. Clooney and have an impeccable taste in the finer things in life. To apply send resumes with photos and prior yr tax return. oh, and bring your lawyer along :P
YouMeCo, Nov 28, 2008 @ 15:36
Tinkie and Vale: Well, I suppose it's nice to fit into the specified category ;)... It is when intelligent and courageous people fight discrimination that laws get adopted or changed.
This sort of "it's not illegal" or "you are being politically correct" argument is the reason that so many racist clubs stay in business in Geneva. When non-whites are systematically screened out, some whites continue to patronize those racist businesses...
Desiree: Well, last time I checked, no one was born smoking, nor it is the inevitable result of staying alive.. smokers do not have the right to endanger the physical health of others...Smokers can quit -- I do not, unlike Michael Jackson, care to change the color of my skin...
Discriminatory Musical Chairs: Why would the leadership of an organization sponsor an activity with age restrictions? Am I misinformed about this?...We are not talking musical wheelchairs are we? Oh, I guess, some people don't want to end up on the lap of some old-blind-asian woman or what? Might end up being more exciting than you think..
Come on, people, join the 21st century...
Tinkie and Vale: Well, I suppose it's nice to fit into the specified category ;)... It is when intelligent and courageous people fight discrimination that laws get adopted or changed.
This sort of "it's not illegal" or "you are being politically correct" argument is the reason that so many racist clubs stay in business in Geneva. When non-whites are systematically screened out, some whites continue to patronize those racist businesses...
Desiree: Well, last time I checked, no one was born smoking, nor it is the inevitable result of staying alive.. smokers do not have the right to endanger the physical health of others...Smokers can quit -- I do not, unlike Michael Jackson, care to change the color of my skin...
Discriminatory Musical Chairs: Why would the leadership of an organization sponsor an activity with age restrictions? Am I misinformed about this?...We are not talking musical wheelchairs are we? Oh, I guess, some people don't want to end up on the lap of some old-blind-asian woman or what? Might end up being more exciting than you think..
Come on, people, join the 21st century...
Translator, Nov 28, 2008 @ 21:35
Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union
Article 21
Non-discrimination
1. Any discrimination based on any ground such as sex, race, colour, ethnic or social origin, genetic features, language, religion or belief, political or any other opinion, membership of a national minority, property, birth, disability, age or sexual orientation shall be prohibited.
Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union
Article 21
Non-discrimination
1. Any discrimination based on any ground such as sex, race, colour, ethnic or social origin, genetic features, language, religion or belief, political or any other opinion, membership of a national minority, property, birth, disability, age or sexual orientation shall be prohibited.
(1) All humans are equal before the law.
(2) Nobody may be discriminated against, namely for his or her origin, race, sex, age, language, social position, way of life, religious, philosophical, or political convictions, or because of a corporal or mental disability.
(3) Men and women have equal rights. The law provides for legal and factual equality, particularly in the family, during education, and at the workplace. Men and women have the right to equal pay for work of equal value.
(4) The law provides for measures to eliminate disadvantages of disabled people.
(1) All humans are equal before the law.
(2) Nobody may be discriminated against, namely for his or her origin, race, sex, age, language, social position, way of life, religious, philosophical, or political convictions, or because of a corporal or mental disability.
(3) Men and women have equal rights. The law provides for legal and factual equality, particularly in the family, during education, and at the workplace. Men and women have the right to equal pay for work of equal value.
(4) The law provides for measures to eliminate disadvantages of disabled people.
Translator, Nov 29, 2008 @ 00:13
Right now glocals is limited to people 23 or older.
If we eliminated the minimum age, and a few thousand 14 year olds joined the site, do you think that might change the character of the site?
Do you think you might be a bit disapointed if you joined an activity posted on glocals and found yourself discussing Britney Spears latest outfit with a bunch of teenagers?
I know the situation Im describing is a bit different than the one you are complaining about, but Im trying to understand whether you really believe that age has no relevance whatsoever, or whether you are just being dogmatic in order to create some controversy.
Thanks for clarifying it for me.
Oded
Right now glocals is limited to people 23 or older.
If we eliminated the minimum age, and a few thousand 14 year olds joined the site, do you think that might change the character of the site?
Do you think you might be a bit disapointed if you joined an activity posted on glocals and found yourself discussing Britney Spears latest outfit with a bunch of teenagers?
I know the situation Im describing is a bit different than the one you are complaining about, but Im trying to understand whether you really believe that age has no relevance whatsoever, or whether you are just being dogmatic in order to create some controversy.
Thanks for clarifying it for me.
Oded
SiteAdmin Oded, Nov 29, 2008 @ 01:35
I'm sure you see the point of this issue: promoting discrimination on the basis of age ( or any of the named catagories in the previous comments) for participation in an event which is advertised openly on the glocals site is in violation of accepted standards and in some cases even illegal.
And, as 1000's of 14 year old's have not complained ( or any other age group) about the entrance age, it does not become an issue.
However, if you were to say that Glocals was a group designed for adult ex pats and swiss locals working and living..........etc etc. you most likely would avoid that issue of defining an age barrier. But i'm not your legal advisor, and i am not trying to create controversy per se, but rather draw your awarness of how easy it is to be led into the mind set of some members who "feel uncomfortable" with other members of people in an equal community (Glocals). after all, they are free to attend or not the particular event.
I'm sure you see the point of this issue: promoting discrimination on the basis of age ( or any of the named catagories in the previous comments) for participation in an event which is advertised openly on the glocals site is in violation of accepted standards and in some cases even illegal.
And, as 1000's of 14 year old's have not complained ( or any other age group) about the entrance age, it does not become an issue.
However, if you were to say that Glocals was a group designed for adult ex pats and swiss locals working and living..........etc etc. you most likely would avoid that issue of defining an age barrier. But i'm not your legal advisor, and i am not trying to create controversy per se, but rather draw your awarness of how easy it is to be led into the mind set of some members who "feel uncomfortable" with other members of people in an equal community (Glocals). after all, they are free to attend or not the particular event.
epicure, Nov 29, 2008 @ 02:45
You seem very determined to provoke people into an argument. Maybe its a good thing you fall out of the age category for this event. I for one wouldn't want to be sat next to someone who makes confrontational quotes whilst trying to enjoy my evening meal in the company of people who actually have something interesting to say. Why don't you create an evening, where you can have a good old moan to like minded people until your hearts are content content?
You seem very determined to provoke people into an argument. Maybe its a good thing you fall out of the age category for this event. I for one wouldn't want to be sat next to someone who makes confrontational quotes whilst trying to enjoy my evening meal in the company of people who actually have something interesting to say. Why don't you create an evening, where you can have a good old moan to like minded people until your hearts are content content?
lufc, Nov 29, 2008 @ 11:21
For the feedback process I presume that some sort of a fill-in form is being used. It would be interesting to see how this form is structured. Would it be possible to show the form or just the text in this thread?
For the feedback process I presume that some sort of a fill-in form is being used. It would be interesting to see how this form is structured. Would it be possible to show the form or just the text in this thread?
haegar, Nov 29, 2008 @ 21:02
Haven't posted for a long time but chanced upon this topic. My two cents - good to have a minimum age limit for membership in Glocals. I think its better to keep all activities open to all Glocals members without restrictions especially because the site is a social networking site and not a dating site. The musical chanirs dinner (for example) is not meant (at least not specifically) as a singles dinner anyway but mere another social activity for Glocals members to have fun in the evening. If people somehow meet and make a connection with someone - well good for them. But otherwise -- my feeling is that it ought to be open to any Glocals member. And for those wh wish to meet people more within their age range -- well - there are several optionsfor them. They can organize an event of their own that will give them an opportunity to meet people of their own age range. I guess - for events specifically organized by Glocals "management" (so to speak :-)) - it ought to be open to ANYONE. After all the purpose of the event is not specifically targeted toward "dating"?? (or perhaps I misunderstood). :-)
With all this heated conversation going on - including legalistic quotes (wow) -- I just would like to say that when I first arrived in Geneva back in April 1997, Geneva was a "barren social wasteland" (ok - a bit extreme :-). I've known Nir forever and he and I used to hang out with our small group of friends for occasional drinks or dinners. There was no organized social network in Geneva. I remember when Nir first came up with Sindy and then eventually when he started talking about this "GOL" website. I even beta tested it!! It's come such a long way from having nothing in Geneva to having an award winning social site.
In thinking of how much this site has done for the expat and local community, and having personally been here and been involved in this site from before it even started, it is, for what its worth, a medium for making friends and being able to raise each others quality of life in Geneva. Let's try not to lose sight of that.
There are now so many members which make it a testament to how successful it has been BUT with many members - there will be many issues that will come up. The bottom line I believe is for people to have a great deal of fun and make an enormous number of friends during their stay in Geneva. Whether that leads to dating or not - who cares!
It's a great site that has contributed much to life in Geneva. It'll be up to each individual to make sure that we don't take things into extremes or interpret things into extremes. Having said that - management should always be the ultimate guardians of truly extreme practices that might come up on the site.
Anyway -- a point of view from someone who's seen GVA social life grow from nothing to what it is today. Let's not ruin something really good.
Be well and be safe to all.
Luisito
Haven't posted for a long time but chanced upon this topic. My two cents - good to have a minimum age limit for membership in Glocals. I think its better to keep all activities open to all Glocals members without restrictions especially because the site is a social networking site and not a dating site. The musical chanirs dinner (for example) is not meant (at least not specifically) as a singles dinner anyway but mere another social activity for Glocals members to have fun in the evening. If people somehow meet and make a connection with someone - well good for them. But otherwise -- my feeling is that it ought to be open to any Glocals member. And for those wh wish to meet people more within their age range -- well - there are several optionsfor them. They can organize an event of their own that will give them an opportunity to meet people of their own age range. I guess - for events specifically organized by Glocals "management" (so to speak :-)) - it ought to be open to ANYONE. After all the purpose of the event is not specifically targeted toward "dating"?? (or perhaps I misunderstood). :-)
With all this heated conversation going on - including legalistic quotes (wow) -- I just would like to say that when I first arrived in Geneva back in April 1997, Geneva was a "barren social wasteland" (ok - a bit extreme :-). I've known Nir forever and he and I used to hang out with our small group of friends for occasional drinks or dinners. There was no organized social network in Geneva. I remember when Nir first came up with Sindy and then eventually when he started talking about this "GOL" website. I even beta tested it!! It's come such a long way from having nothing in Geneva to having an award winning social site.
In thinking of how much this site has done for the expat and local community, and having personally been here and been involved in this site from before it even started, it is, for what its worth, a medium for making friends and being able to raise each others quality of life in Geneva. Let's try not to lose sight of that.
There are now so many members which make it a testament to how successful it has been BUT with many members - there will be many issues that will come up. The bottom line I believe is for people to have a great deal of fun and make an enormous number of friends during their stay in Geneva. Whether that leads to dating or not - who cares!
It's a great site that has contributed much to life in Geneva. It'll be up to each individual to make sure that we don't take things into extremes or interpret things into extremes. Having said that - management should always be the ultimate guardians of truly extreme practices that might come up on the site.
Anyway -- a point of view from someone who's seen GVA social life grow from nothing to what it is today. Let's not ruin something really good.
Be well and be safe to all.
Luisito
luisito, Nov 29, 2008 @ 23:13
I agree with you that the comparison to the "whites-only" advert was indeed unfair and a bit extreme (although Translator's naughty little plan to bring a dozen or so wild looking, dark skinned applicants nearly split my side laughing).
I do however disagree with the solution to "split" age ranges primarily because the main purpose of the site is to foster social networking within the Glocals community. I remember when you first started the Musical Chairs Dinner - I was in the first five, I believe :-). I haven't been to one in a long time but I know it was a great idea which explains why it's still around. I think the Glocals community philosophy that it is not a dating site and that it is open to anyone (over 21 or over 25) is part and parcel of what has made it so successful. The philosophy extended to the Musical Chairs DInner from the start.
I think there are three tiers of activities within Glocals:
1. Management organized events
2. Co-sponsored events
3. Member organized events
I think for the first two tiers - it ought to be open to ALL Glocals members - living up to the site's philosophy - which is what has brought it success thus far.
For those that wish to meet people within their own age range, there is the third tier of member activities. Again - over the years - this has been where active and new members have succeeded in organizing events - including "singles" events specifically to foster meeting someone to date - that specified age ranges. I've been to a few of these singles events (ok - admittedly, sometimes masquerading as a young stallion myself :-). There has been the over 40 or over 50 events, the young interns events, etc etc....
I just think that in the case of the musical chairs dinner, Glocals should stick to its philosophy of fostering events open to ALL members of the Glocals community. And Glocals members should be aware that this is what the dinner is about when they sign up for the dinner. It's like dancing. You go to a dance, you ask a complete stranger to dance which is the mystic of going to a dance.
Now - you either will have 5 minutes of pure heaven during the dance OR 5 minutes of pure hell. BUT again - that's part of the mystic of being there. Over the years, I've had some really great experiences during these dinners and some unusual ones. BUT HEY -- it's what makes the dinner interesting and you have something to talk about later on. Besides - there are 7 other people at table with you at any given course. Bring out the versatility of your social acumen!!!!
And if Glocals' major segment of membership (25-39 years old) is a segment that Glocals management wish to keep happy and satisfied - then sponsor a new event with another name - "Glocals Singles Night". Establish "a philosophy" for this event that you define for all Glocals members such as "for age 25-30" one night, "age 35-45" another night, etc etc. I think you should leave the musical chairs dinner alone as is ;-))))) Less chances of inviting controversy.
Anyway -- my two cents, buddy!
Hope to see you soon. Have an interview at the OECD in Paris soon. Keep up the great job with Glocals.
Luisito
I agree with you that the comparison to the "whites-only" advert was indeed unfair and a bit extreme (although Translator's naughty little plan to bring a dozen or so wild looking, dark skinned applicants nearly split my side laughing).
I do however disagree with the solution to "split" age ranges primarily because the main purpose of the site is to foster social networking within the Glocals community. I remember when you first started the Musical Chairs Dinner - I was in the first five, I believe :-). I haven't been to one in a long time but I know it was a great idea which explains why it's still around. I think the Glocals community philosophy that it is not a dating site and that it is open to anyone (over 21 or over 25) is part and parcel of what has made it so successful. The philosophy extended to the Musical Chairs DInner from the start.
I think there are three tiers of activities within Glocals:
1. Management organized events
2. Co-sponsored events
3. Member organized events
I think for the first two tiers - it ought to be open to ALL Glocals members - living up to the site's philosophy - which is what has brought it success thus far.
For those that wish to meet people within their own age range, there is the third tier of member activities. Again - over the years - this has been where active and new members have succeeded in organizing events - including "singles" events specifically to foster meeting someone to date - that specified age ranges. I've been to a few of these singles events (ok - admittedly, sometimes masquerading as a young stallion myself :-). There has been the over 40 or over 50 events, the young interns events, etc etc....
I just think that in the case of the musical chairs dinner, Glocals should stick to its philosophy of fostering events open to ALL members of the Glocals community. And Glocals members should be aware that this is what the dinner is about when they sign up for the dinner. It's like dancing. You go to a dance, you ask a complete stranger to dance which is the mystic of going to a dance.
Now - you either will have 5 minutes of pure heaven during the dance OR 5 minutes of pure hell. BUT again - that's part of the mystic of being there. Over the years, I've had some really great experiences during these dinners and some unusual ones. BUT HEY -- it's what makes the dinner interesting and you have something to talk about later on. Besides - there are 7 other people at table with you at any given course. Bring out the versatility of your social acumen!!!!
And if Glocals' major segment of membership (25-39 years old) is a segment that Glocals management wish to keep happy and satisfied - then sponsor a new event with another name - "Glocals Singles Night". Establish "a philosophy" for this event that you define for all Glocals members such as "for age 25-30" one night, "age 35-45" another night, etc etc. I think you should leave the musical chairs dinner alone as is ;-))))) Less chances of inviting controversy.
Anyway -- my two cents, buddy!
Hope to see you soon. Have an interview at the OECD in Paris soon. Keep up the great job with Glocals.
Luisito
luisito, Nov 30, 2008 @ 00:26
Some people simply do not have the ability to see outside of their own ?? boxes I guess.
I personally find ads worded with exclusions like these to be quite sad.
I guess this type of narrowing of life can at points make people feel like part of a group, and I guess in someway by excluding some, that group becomes more special.
The word selective, and phrases like "you don't fit the template or profile" have become accepted and common.
It could be true that your mother warned you about men like me, but aren't you glad you didn't listen?
Selective, I am.
So often I read an advertisement and even if the segregated phrases and words do not exist in the add, its targets are clear. But if the group/community accepts these selective type practices in general, it seems that the hurt feelings of those left out are just written off as the few complainers.
What is important for a community to be a community? Is it the will of the majority, that can change like a new fad or seasonal fashion? It seems there should be at least a basis for understanding right and wrong.
It all must be driven by fear, as I have grown older I have lost hair on my head and have grown more hair in my ears, probably that is why I can not go to the musical chairs dinner because people at 32 do not want to look a few years forward. But anyway I do not fit the template.
Life is not fair, and arguing about fair or unfair is tiresome but right and wrong?
Some people simply do not have the ability to see outside of their own ?? boxes I guess.
I personally find ads worded with exclusions like these to be quite sad.
I guess this type of narrowing of life can at points make people feel like part of a group, and I guess in someway by excluding some, that group becomes more special.
The word selective, and phrases like "you don't fit the template or profile" have become accepted and common.
It could be true that your mother warned you about men like me, but aren't you glad you didn't listen?
Selective, I am.
So often I read an advertisement and even if the segregated phrases and words do not exist in the add, its targets are clear. But if the group/community accepts these selective type practices in general, it seems that the hurt feelings of those left out are just written off as the few complainers.
What is important for a community to be a community? Is it the will of the majority, that can change like a new fad or seasonal fashion? It seems there should be at least a basis for understanding right and wrong.
It all must be driven by fear, as I have grown older I have lost hair on my head and have grown more hair in my ears, probably that is why I can not go to the musical chairs dinner because people at 32 do not want to look a few years forward. But anyway I do not fit the template.
Life is not fair, and arguing about fair or unfair is tiresome but right and wrong?
TonyT, Dec 1, 2008 @ 01:31
Quote from Vale:
"I am going to take a very unpopular and somehow polemic position here. The person is subletting the apartment fully furnished. So it's clearly not an ad posted by a regie or any official entrerprise. Sure the person that put the ad on is clearly being racist, and discriminating .. BUT ... in the end it's her/his own apartment, with her/his own furniture to sublet, so the owner has the right to choose however he or she pleases. " Tinkie, you are absolutely right I should have avoided any comment that appears personal. I was trying to modify my snarkiness with a wink, but I apologize to both you and Vale for my sarcasm. I did, indeed, read both of your comments several times. I was frankly rather stunned that you seemed to be saying that being concerned about racism/discrimination is a matter of being "politically correct." That was an extremely provocative comment, in my opinion. Vale admits to taking an unpopular and polemical position, but then feels she is being purposely misinterpreted. You both appear to me to be shrugging off the importance of discrimination by pointing out that you have both been victimized. I guess I found both of your comments rather cavalier and callous. I don't think any of us is naive about racism. Some of us are saying it should be challenged. Tinkie, you said we disagree. On what precisely? You said that it's better to know that you have no chance of getting the apartment. From my personal experience people, yes, even racists, have been known to change their attitudes. Finally, I realize that Glocals is not necessarily the best forum for discussing difficult topics. Reasonable people can always disagree. Forceful disagreement is not necessarily provocation although some people on the site think it is. When I initially read the offending advertisement, I really laughed because I thought of the fun I could have teasing such a person. Believe me, if I reacted to every racist and sexist incident, I would have long ago been a permanent resident of Belle Idée (the local sanitarium). ;) |
Quote from Vale:
"I am going to take a very unpopular and somehow polemic position here. The person is subletting the apartment fully furnished. So it's clearly not an ad posted by a regie or any official entrerprise. Sure the person that put the ad on is clearly being racist, and discriminating .. BUT ... in the end it's her/his own apartment, with her/his own furniture to sublet, so the owner has the right to choose however he or she pleases. " Tinkie, you are absolutely right I should have avoided any comment that appears personal. I was trying to modify my snarkiness with a wink, but I apologize to both you and Vale for my sarcasm. I did, indeed, read both of your comments several times. I was frankly rather stunned that you seemed to be saying that being concerned about racism/discrimination is a matter of being "politically correct." That was an extremely provocative comment, in my opinion. Vale admits to taking an unpopular and polemical position, but then feels she is being purposely misinterpreted. You both appear to me to be shrugging off the importance of discrimination by pointing out that you have both been victimized. I guess I found both of your comments rather cavalier and callous. I don't think any of us is naive about racism. Some of us are saying it should be challenged. Tinkie, you said we disagree. On what precisely? You said that it's better to know that you have no chance of getting the apartment. From my personal experience people, yes, even racists, have been known to change their attitudes. Finally, I realize that Glocals is not necessarily the best forum for discussing difficult topics. Reasonable people can always disagree. Forceful disagreement is not necessarily provocation although some people on the site think it is. When I initially read the offending advertisement, I really laughed because I thought of the fun I could have teasing such a person. Believe me, if I reacted to every racist and sexist incident, I would have long ago been a permanent resident of Belle Idée (the local sanitarium). ;) |
Translator, Dec 1, 2008 @ 04:40
Does this mean I am racist? No. Does this mean I approve what the ad says? NO. Do I think Whoever doesn't fit the criteria has the right to feel discriminated and prostest? Yes (but then the same will apply to people ranting their appartment only to couples, cause singles are too messy ....) .... Do I think racism and discrimination should be comdamend? yes.
Do I still somehow appreciate the twisted fact that the person was clear in the ad so that if I don't belong to the target group I can choose if I want to a) sue the person b) try and get the apartment anyway c) Just give up and not waste time? Yes.
As an afterthought, where do we draw the line? Male Single guys don't get apartment to subrent cause they are known to be messy. Should they sue the people that discriminate? debatable. Would they like to know in advance that the people subrenting apartments will only take girls cause they are 'neater' ? I think yes. Would they feel discriminated if such an ad was posted? I am not so sure.
So here i say it again and hope for the last time: people should be condemnded for being racist, but we can't (or most people have no time or energy to) change how everyone thinks or feels ... so at least when ads like this are posted we can pick our battle and choose how to use our time ....
V
Does this mean I am racist? No. Does this mean I approve what the ad says? NO. Do I think Whoever doesn't fit the criteria has the right to feel discriminated and prostest? Yes (but then the same will apply to people ranting their appartment only to couples, cause singles are too messy ....) .... Do I think racism and discrimination should be comdamend? yes.
Do I still somehow appreciate the twisted fact that the person was clear in the ad so that if I don't belong to the target group I can choose if I want to a) sue the person b) try and get the apartment anyway c) Just give up and not waste time? Yes.
As an afterthought, where do we draw the line? Male Single guys don't get apartment to subrent cause they are known to be messy. Should they sue the people that discriminate? debatable. Would they like to know in advance that the people subrenting apartments will only take girls cause they are 'neater' ? I think yes. Would they feel discriminated if such an ad was posted? I am not so sure.
So here i say it again and hope for the last time: people should be condemnded for being racist, but we can't (or most people have no time or energy to) change how everyone thinks or feels ... so at least when ads like this are posted we can pick our battle and choose how to use our time ....
V
Hoiling, Dec 1, 2008 @ 12:57
Besides wanting to mock the ad, I posted it because I occasionally get tired of people saying these situations don't exist.
I am encouraged that the Swiss constitution guarantees such extensive protection against all forms of discrimination. Enforcement of these rights, however, leave a lot to be desired.
What I find more prominent than racial discrimination though, is discrimination based upon religion! And sometimes people assume that as a black American, I agree with them. I try my best to disabuse them of this notion...
On age discrimination, I see clear evidence every Wednesday in the Tribune de Geneve's employment section. The ads specifically mention age ranges, often between 25 and 45...and employers ask for photos(!) and even handwriting analysis!!! :blink:
On gender discrimination, especially in employment, I've seen many ads specifying that women only need apply. I suspect that part of the reason is that women in Switzerland are paid less for doing the same work. The strangest ad I ever saw, though was posted by a very prominent Geneva businessman and philanthropist looking for a female assistant. He requested two photos, one full-length. ...:sick:
I would also like to thank everyone for discussing the topic, though.
Besides wanting to mock the ad, I posted it because I occasionally get tired of people saying these situations don't exist.
I am encouraged that the Swiss constitution guarantees such extensive protection against all forms of discrimination. Enforcement of these rights, however, leave a lot to be desired.
What I find more prominent than racial discrimination though, is discrimination based upon religion! And sometimes people assume that as a black American, I agree with them. I try my best to disabuse them of this notion...
On age discrimination, I see clear evidence every Wednesday in the Tribune de Geneve's employment section. The ads specifically mention age ranges, often between 25 and 45...and employers ask for photos(!) and even handwriting analysis!!! :blink:
On gender discrimination, especially in employment, I've seen many ads specifying that women only need apply. I suspect that part of the reason is that women in Switzerland are paid less for doing the same work. The strangest ad I ever saw, though was posted by a very prominent Geneva businessman and philanthropist looking for a female assistant. He requested two photos, one full-length. ...:sick:
I would also like to thank everyone for discussing the topic, though.
Translator, Dec 1, 2008 @ 17:54
remember that movie, "TOOTSIE" with Dustin Hoffman??
Hmmmmmm.
Or the old US television comedy from the 80s, "Bossom Buddies" (with a very young Tom Hanks)??
Hmmmmmmmm.
Could work!!!! ;-))
remember that movie, "TOOTSIE" with Dustin Hoffman??
Hmmmmmm.
Or the old US television comedy from the 80s, "Bossom Buddies" (with a very young Tom Hanks)??
Hmmmmmmmm.
Could work!!!! ;-))
luisito, Dec 2, 2008 @ 00:15
Putting this kind of (generally understandable) selection criteria (and even the age criteria for dinners!!!) in the same pot as racism can only dilute the outrage at racism, I am afraid. unquote
so, i guess you are saying that there is a hierarchy of discrimination. Race being more important than age, and sex, religion, etc.
i guess you simply just don't get it!!! they are all equally invalid criteria.........just because you tend to favour one criteria for another does not make you any less offensive to groups that you discriminate against with your prejudices. some people here just keep digging themselves deeper in the "hole of ignorance" by trying to justify what they have done or are willing to accept.
some will say this response is "way out of control"........no, remember the marches in selma, the riots in watts, those were out of control.
discrimination "of any colour" is pure and simple discrimination. be it race, religion, sex, age, etc.
Putting this kind of (generally understandable) selection criteria (and even the age criteria for dinners!!!) in the same pot as racism can only dilute the outrage at racism, I am afraid. unquote
so, i guess you are saying that there is a hierarchy of discrimination. Race being more important than age, and sex, religion, etc.
i guess you simply just don't get it!!! they are all equally invalid criteria.........just because you tend to favour one criteria for another does not make you any less offensive to groups that you discriminate against with your prejudices. some people here just keep digging themselves deeper in the "hole of ignorance" by trying to justify what they have done or are willing to accept.
some will say this response is "way out of control"........no, remember the marches in selma, the riots in watts, those were out of control.
discrimination "of any colour" is pure and simple discrimination. be it race, religion, sex, age, etc.
epicure, Dec 2, 2008 @ 13:43
Hi translator - great to see that you are vigilant enough to high-light these examples of racism that go unnoticed. There is no excuse for racism and I applaud your stand on this issue. First time using this forum so just getting used to it.
Hi translator - great to see that you are vigilant enough to high-light these examples of racism that go unnoticed. There is no excuse for racism and I applaud your stand on this issue. First time using this forum so just getting used to it.
Juiceman, Dec 2, 2008 @ 13:44
When we look at history, it should be clear to all that racism has caused the most damage in terms of its impact on society etc. Yes there is age discrimination and so on but its all about degree and impact. Many would love to erase the facts of history from the memory of time but the truth is there for all to see. Racism is a scourge that has caused more pain , suffering and in some cases, mass slaughter. If you wish to beat the drum against age discrimination, height discrimination and the like , well have fun. But I know that racism is a much greater issue that needs to be tackled and history shows this clearly.
When we look at history, it should be clear to all that racism has caused the most damage in terms of its impact on society etc. Yes there is age discrimination and so on but its all about degree and impact. Many would love to erase the facts of history from the memory of time but the truth is there for all to see. Racism is a scourge that has caused more pain , suffering and in some cases, mass slaughter. If you wish to beat the drum against age discrimination, height discrimination and the like , well have fun. But I know that racism is a much greater issue that needs to be tackled and history shows this clearly.
Juiceman, Dec 2, 2008 @ 14:06
From that point on in the thread I have almost been on the floor laughing....
I come from the midwest -- nothing but bland food -- except barbeque ribs in the summer..
Reminds me of a BBC Goodness Gracious Me skit riffing on white English going out for a curry.. instead, it's a bunch of Anglo-Indians in a non-descript restaurant and one asks, "What's the blandest thing on the menu?"
Thanks Hayes--that response was priceless...
From that point on in the thread I have almost been on the floor laughing....
I come from the midwest -- nothing but bland food -- except barbeque ribs in the summer..
Reminds me of a BBC Goodness Gracious Me skit riffing on white English going out for a curry.. instead, it's a bunch of Anglo-Indians in a non-descript restaurant and one asks, "What's the blandest thing on the menu?"
Thanks Hayes--that response was priceless...
Translator, Dec 3, 2008 @ 20:13
