- making sure the people who count for me know that they do!
- having some 'me' time

and something i've started doing recently: not stress about stupid things that won't matter tomorrow anyway...
Minda, Jun 9, 2007 @ 16:01

I've been looking for the magic answer to 'don't stress about things that won't matter tomorrow' ... but I am still far away from a solution.
Right now my approach is:
- Don't care what other people thinks about me
- Taking care of myself
- Taking care of the people I love, and try to make them happy as much as i can
- Saying what i think or what i feel to my friends and loved ones cause if i wait for the good moment there might not be the chance.

Vale
Hoiling, Jun 9, 2007 @ 16:47

wish i could find the way to get there too. sometimes i am .. just stuck.


Hoiling, Jun 9, 2007 @ 20:09

A few years back during an unusually hot summer day, an overloaded electrical grid caused a massive black out over north eastern United States and southern Ontario. It affected millions of people and lasted an average of four days. No air conditioning for the stifling heat, no radio/television to provide updates, no oven to cook on, no internet/telephone to call loved ones and no light to see through the darkness. It affected public transportation, gas stations, water-pump systems, grocery stores and banks. And more than just the unforeseen inconveniences, it created a palpable feeling of isolation, restlessness, anxiety and for some people despair.

You would think that after that, my ‘way’ of living would include a heightened sense of gratitude and a desire to be more prepared but the thing is….I am already very grateful and, like the passing of a good friend, I don’t think you can ever truly be prepared.
Instead, I try to live in the moment before it is gone. I learned that as much as I missed the light, I also missed the stars when the lights came back on.

Riley, Jun 10, 2007 @ 03:24

is a good question.

The wake up call from Marco's death will probably allow me to focus more on living the day for a bit. Then, natuarally, I will probably slip back to my normal lazy self.

I hope to keep reminding myself all the time how short this life is all the time.
Nir Ofek, Jun 10, 2007 @ 12:33

is that i tell or show people that i love them all the time. ever wondered why i hugged all my friends all the time? i would hate to think i didn't hug someone one day and die the next without them knowing they are important to me.

so far, i've had no complaints! ;)

(is that what you were asking about? it wasn't entirely clear)
Minda, Jun 10, 2007 @ 16:24

one day i just thought 'sod this, it's really not worth getting upset about'. and i mostly gave up worrying about stuff. like last week, when my car just stopped working. 6 months ago, i would have been in a right state. last week, i calmly got out of the car and thought that if noone could help me, i'd just call the insurance or get a train home.

there is always a solution!!

;)
Minda, Jun 10, 2007 @ 16:27

This discussion is really interesting. Thanks for your postings everyone.
I read the interview with Yalom suggested above and one sentence jumped out at me
“a real confrontation with death usually causes one to question with real seriousness the goals and conduct of one's life up to then”
Food for thought for all of us I think.

I agree with you all that at the end of the day it's your attitude to life that will keep you going. And you can train your mind to have a more positive outlook and ultimately achieve a sense of peace of mind.
I'd recommend the film “What the Bleep do we know” and its sequel for ideas about positive thinking among other things. Quite inspiring stuff.

For me making the best of each day means
- using my energy wisely
- being thankful for all the support I get from all around me
- recognising that I am perfect in my imperfection
(I don't always achieve these points but, hey, I'm not perfect! ;)
lentil, Jun 10, 2007 @ 23:58

nice post Janet (nt)
Nir Ofek, Jun 11, 2007 @ 11:45

First of all, thanks Nir for launching that post. I was thinking about posting a message like yours for the same reason some time ago, but I feared some would not appreciate it. Thanks for taking the initiative.

To me, to answer the question “how to make the most of every day”, you have to answer “how to make the most of your life”. Because the Carpe Diem attitude, sorry to say, but just doesn’t work. Every day is part of a process, like a step on a path. If I were to die tomorrow, I would surely not spend this very day in the office, I would not pay my bills, fill in my tax declaration, wash my laundry or go grocery shopping for tomorrow. I would neither invite my friends for a dinner next week nor plan a weekend with my son in three weeks. But if I’m lucky enough to be still alive next year, I’m not sure I’d be able to “burn the day” so much being workless, homeless and friendless. Fair enough, one should maybe be able to make the most of everyday even being sick, disabled, homeless and starving. But I’m no saint. I’ve got a family to feed. A reality to face. A path to walk.

How to make the most of your life then? First, I don’t really know what life is. But I kind of found my reason for living it. Let me explain.

Whats’ life ? Wikipedia says: Life is a condition that distinguishes organisms from inorganic objects, i.e. non-life, and dead organisms, being manifested by growth through metabolism, reproduction, and the power of adaptation to environment through changes originating internally. Doesn’t mean much for now, but I’ll come back to it later on.

We do, indeed, feel that there more than this basic biological reality in us, don’t we? I do personally believe that our human brains will never allow us to understand what life and the universe are. Ok, we’ll discover rules, principles, and techniques. But would you expect an ant to really catch what the distance between Rome and Tokyo actually means? We “know” that the universe expends, that it’s so many light years wide, have theories of how it might have “born”. But still… what was “before” the “start”. If universe is “all”, what’s “outside” ? I think we all are like my 5yo child how told me the other day “dad, what’s antimatter?”. We just couldn’t understand even if we were told. I’ve been hoping for long that, the day I would die, some sort of god would come and explain me “see, that’s the way it goes. That was the meaning”. As if a rat was finally taken out of the labyrinth to see it from above. Today, I do not believe god exists anymore, and I’m even more convinced I couldn’t understand what he would tell me. I don’t expect rats to be computer literate; I don’t expect humans to understand the universe and the meaning of life. But instead of being frustrated, I found a way to see it a positive way that helps me. Here is how.


First, you don’t necessarily need to understand something to appreciate it. Second, there are some evidences to help us on the way:
- homo sapiens sapiens has a survival and reproduction instinct
- human being are social animals
- humanity has created a social, cultural and technological structure far more complex than any other so far known living forms
- loving someone and being loved in return is a terrific experience we are all looking for
- no one has ever been able to prove scientifically that any form of life after death exists, or doesn’t exist
- the lack of certitude is somehow frustrating and depressing, but the mystery that surrounds our lives make them also more poetic, more interesting and pushes us to be more curious, which is, to me, one of the key human qualities.



Based on those observations, this is my vision of history and life:

If our ancestors had doubted about the meaning of life so much, and had killed themselves to the last one, we wouldn’t be here today to talk about it and ask ourselves why we’re here. But we are. It looks like being nothing. Just a matter of fact. But read again the biological definition of life, and you’ll see how miraculous this fact is. We don’t know how life was first created, what was the initial spark. But it is truly amazing the way nature has managed to keep that fire alive. I once imagined earth as the product of a competition. Do you remember when your primary school teacher brought back some fish, ants or tortoises you were supposed to feed and see grow along the year ? Imagine now a bunch of god kids at heaven’s secondary school. This year’s assignment is to “create a form of living that will last as long as possible, but at least three quarters of an eternity”. Some create perfect creatures on hazard less planets facing never ending suns, other ones semi gods in heavenly looking universes. And a weird one thinks it the other way round. How can your resist meteorites, earthquakes, sun blowing, glaciations, overheating and self destruction tendencies - war, pollution, suicide (think about it, eternity is bloody long, especially at the end !) – for sure ? If you life would depend on bringing an egg back home, would you take only one? Put them all in the same basket? Would you carry them all by yourself? Wouldn’t the smartest move be bringing a chicken back? Life has probably found the best way to replicate itself: though countless and amazingly various self reproducing sorts of living organisms. Some microscopic bacteria survive at 180C centigrade 1000 meters bellow sea level while polar bear survive to minus 60C on ice. People don’t stop having children even during the worth war or hunger periods. Got the picture ?

For all that, I know that, in 500 years time, unless I suddenly become any famous artist, dictator or philosopher, there will be nothing left from me, and no one will remember my existence. That being said, some children of the children of…. my child might be there. Even if they’re not, just by being here, being alive, through my actions, my speaking, I do have an influence on the world; it’s level of pollution, solidarity and hope amongst others. Ever heard about the butterfly effect? We all have an influence on our planet. It might be just a drop, but every drop matters. No need to be Gandhi or Rockefeller. For all that, I might not be remembered. But I will have taken part to make this world as it will be, might be better or worse. No one remembers the workers who built the cathedrals, but they’re still up. Actors on the Earth scene change, but the Life show goes on. And I’m part of it. And so are you.


So, I tend to measure the consequences on me and others of every single action of my life, and to act upon it. This, indeed, is a nightmare. It sometimes kills spontaneity, innocence and joy. But it gives meaning to my life. I care about the products I buy (origin, production mode, waste generated…), the waste I produce (I recycle everything that can be recycled), the energy I consume (using low energy bulbs, switching off computer, heating to 19C max), the way I travel (mode, distance, frequency, respect of other users), the job I do, the company I work for, the political parties I vote for, the pressure groups and charities I give money to, the way I treat my colleagues, subordinates, customers, providers, friends, relatives, neighbors, the shop keeper, pedestrians, waitress, homeless… I can’t really enjoy anything that isn’t ethic. But I’m on the verge of crying from happiness when I see someone helping a total stranger changing his flat tire, giving food to an hungry one, spending time with lonely one or just stopping his car and smile to an pedestrian crossing the street. Life’s a bitch, but life’s beautiful.


For all that, I am still afraid of dying. I hate the world for being so unfair, full of so many sufferings and inequalities. But I like being part of that insane - or not understandable at least – dance, to keep on taking part to it.
Hobbes, Jun 11, 2007 @ 13:39

Those questions were also addressed by religions. How to make sense of death during life ? Maybe that's just out of our scope ? Maybe we all have an individual experience and approaches and that just sharing these somehow helps.
But anyway, the conclusion is the same: death won't lose any of its mystery so "mysterious" answers to these questions look like a fit. This does not necessarily means joining a big regilious stream but also growing our mystic side/world etc.

btw great thread!

B.
brooster, Jun 11, 2007 @ 13:55

Reading this guys really feels like "so, I'm not the only crazy one out there then". I remember when I said to my shrink "I'm afraid of death". His answer was something like "tell me about your mum" :-S

It also reminds me a book I can't remember the title for now, but I'll look for you. A former student comes and visits his former teacher, slowly dying of a degenarative disease. Very enlightning, surprisingly peacfull and enjoyable. Especially when both your grandmothers, two uncles and one aunt died before 40, while your father, grandfather and father in law were saved from a certain death caused by aneurysmal rupture.
Hobbes, Jun 11, 2007 @ 15:30

Reading through Hobbes reply reminded me of a guy I saw recently on TV complaining to his local Heath Authority (Newquay,Cornwall in Southwest England) . He was given a short time to live so he did seize the day and spent all his money on enjoying himself and didn't pay the mortgage on his house. Now months later his condition has improved, the doctors now think that the original diagnosis was wrong and he will live a normal life, but without any money or a house, he is suing the hospital for the money he spent seizing the day.

So live each day like it's your last , but still have a little leftover if it isn't
britabroad, Jun 11, 2007 @ 15:53

I just realized how much Marco is a life illustration of what I was saying above. Marco's dead. He can't actively influence our lives. Yet, if I am typing now on my keyboard, if you're reading me, it's thanks to him. I would obviously prefer him still being with us than us talking about him being gone. I don’t believe in “missions”, destiny or any similar crap. Marco didn’t die to give us any lesson. He had a terrible accident, while no child should die fore his parents, full point. But there's no such choice in front of death. We can only accept it, remember the good things, and learn from it.

Surprisingly enough, I have no regrets thinking back about Marco. I didn’t knew him much. I’m pretty sure I’d have appreciated him more if I had known him better. We didn’t share much. Some “meaningless” moments of fun, partying, joking. But f***, that’s part of the things that make us want to live and enjoy life. I won’t keep much memories of Marco. But I still feel him shaking my hand. I still see his smile. I’d love people to smile thinking back about me when I’m gone. Marco’s dead, but that funny boy still makes me smile. Make me want to be happy. Thanks buddy !

SiteAdmin, please post the following picture here: http://www.sindy.ch/WorldCup-Philippe%20(83).JPG
Hobbes, Jun 11, 2007 @ 18:15

I agree and disagree at the same time.
Trying to be as clear as possible here ... but you know me so probabily something will not be clear.
Some people help others to feel better themselves, some people help others because they hope they'll get help in return when needed, some people help others (the ones they are close to) because they care. I've been in all those situations at one point in time or the others, on the giving and receiving end, and what i am thinking these days is that it doesn't really matter. When i needed help some people helped me because it made them feel better people. Then they got fed up and stopped helping. Did it hurt? A little. Was I happy that i got help? yes. Did I care why i got it? not really.
I helped people because i hoped they'd help me ... and of course those ppl where the ones that didn't help me at all.
now i help or try to help the people i care for, when they want it, just because I care, and I want them to know that IF they want they can rely on me for whatever they need.
Linking on the other topic ... sure, we cannot help everyone and as much as we would like especially if we are not well ourselves, but help comes in many forms. A friend that would listen to you moan on the phone, a friend that woudl take you to a movie when you need distraction, a friend that would bring you back to reality and give you a more perspective view on your problem, sometimes just a friend that gives you a hug, that tells you that it's time to move on - moaning time is over - that you need professional help, or that just steals your mobile phone and refuses to give it back (even under phisycall attack) when you are down or drunk ... for me is help.

Vale :)
Hoiling, Jun 11, 2007 @ 18:26

unless you have unlimited money resources ..and you can feed youe instant gratification need endlessly, it doesn;t last long. At the next down moment you'll want the next treat and so on. And if you don't have enough money ... you'll get really depressed at the end of the month!!

Vale
Hoiling, Jun 11, 2007 @ 18:30

..live with dignity, integrity, responsibly vis-a-vis surrounders/friends/parents/elders, live in patience, ...with tolerance... , discover limits, yet not enjoy repercurssions from hurting people... life teaches everyone of us smthng more or less... but whenever being hurt or diminished, live by thinking "it is not only me alone" instead of egoistic "why this happens to me?" under such & that circumstances... after all, there are values bigger than every one of us...

Good_One, Jun 11, 2007 @ 18:31

We've lost contact long ago. Too long ago. I had never had the courage to make the first step (back), I just did. Why are we so stupid that we need to be shown the worse to have the guts to do some good ? :-S
Hobbes, Jun 11, 2007 @ 19:08

my son changed a ton of things in my head. Before, I was happy with hanging out with some friends, getting high on the weekends and it seemed : "Wow, I really enjoyed it to the max!". What?! Rewind.....I enjoy now to take some time for myself, to let my son grow as a man, and his smile is worth a lot (pure moment of living the present at its best). It's also good to do nothing if you feel it's the right thing. It's particularly rewarding when you work your butt off at work, come home to cook and clean, etc, etc. That's is not ceasing the day per se, is it?! I like twirling my hair for hours, I feel zen....

Iolly, Jun 11, 2007 @ 21:11

We have nothing against or for religion, but it does not belong on GoL because everytime posts about religion go up, there's a very high probability some members will get offended.

Thanks for helping us keep GoL religion neutral.

Nir Ofek, Jun 12, 2007 @ 11:35

I more or less lost contact with my best school friend when we werle like 15-16. We had a phone call when we were like 21, and I contacted him this year and we saw each other a few time, with much pleasure, 12 years later.
So Hobbes, you're not the only one that don't really have the courage to take his phone in such situation (actually I also didn't, I googled him and mailed him), but there are some rewards. Congrats for having done it ;)
Remy
RemyS, Jun 12, 2007 @ 14:48

I did not mean to delete some religion related posts and leave others, it's just that i saw some, and I missed others...

I am following the discussion started by Hobbes about religion on GoL to figuere out, with everyone's help, how to manage future topicsabout religion on GoL.

Nir Ofek, Jun 12, 2007 @ 20:33

as a friend of Marco's, one that will miss him dearly, i was chocked to learn about his death when logging on to GOL for a short break at work (i had not yet had the opportunity to read my personal messages) and I am not sure that I agree with the way his death was treated, with a public posting on GOL's home side followed by a public discussion. for me, the minimum would have been to wait a few days while only getting in touch with his friend to start with.

i didn't say anything at the time because it did not feel important in relation to the importance of loosing him. however, seeing his name in the beginning of a discussion makes me feel uncomfortable anew. i do not mean that talking about him is wrong or that his accident did not influence the way his friends and family thinks and acts, indeed it should have. however, the first entry to this thread feels a bit like he is being used to get the attention of fellow members, when just mentioning that "the passing away of a friend brought on those thoughts" would have been enough.

if you use his name when talking about him directly, then there is nothing wrong, but to start a discussion about the meaning of life - common, that is really not necessary. i am sure you miss him as well, but then please respect him and the rest of his friends.

the two cents of an uncomfortable, sad little green fairy, helena
LNA__, Jun 12, 2007 @ 22:26

Hi Nir,
Please delete the post about Dalai Lama/Buddhism...unless those of us who believe in the Bible can also refer to it without preaching religion.


Molula_M, Jun 12, 2007 @ 23:04

by Mitch Albom is the book. Highly recommended.
Quijote, Jun 13, 2007 @ 01:32

The question is not "do you believe in god", but "what do you do to make the most of your life" I guess. In fact, I know what you do as a matter of fact... organizing hundreds of LOL events ;-)
Hobbes, Jun 13, 2007 @ 15:19

First of all, I'm sorry. Please accept my apologies if any of my messages have made you or any of his relatives feel uneasy. I didn't want Marco's death to turn into a soap opera dramy banter. This is why I refrained myself posting my feelings about his death at first. This is why I begg everybody not to argue about religion on this post anymore. Another one has been opend for that.

But knowing Nir, I am deeply convinced that he didn't launched this topic to "get the attention of fellow members". Face it, Nir is somehow the "father" of this comunity. He knew Marco personaly. He must have been shocked by Marco's death as many of us have. It is nothing but normal to me that, back from meeting his family, thoughts on meaning of life mixed with sorrow in his head. "What if it had been me ?" kind of questions come to everyone's mind I suppose when such tragedies happen. When a friend broke his spine at a party we were attendind, all his friends had, I guess, the same shock and questions. Why him ? Why now ? How would I react if it were me ? Do I enjoy enough my walking ability ?

Trying to make the most of the worse is, to me, a great human quality. To me, trying to change our lives to make them more meaningfull are not a sign of disrespect of Marco or Marco's family. Wanna know something ? I found it too soapy to post it before. But when I saw all the incredible posts from his friends, I told myself "I wish I could become someone as nice and appreciated as Marco was". Hope you understand better now.
Hobbes, Jun 13, 2007 @ 15:36

It really kills me how sometimes things are turned around in people's head, and simple feelings become a topic.

If it makes you feel less bad, I spoke with Marco's father face to face last Saturday. He told me how much the family appreciated all the reactions on GoL after Marco's death, and how thankful they were for all GoLers who expressed their thoghts about Marco. He also asked me to print all the comments for him, cos the family wants to keep them.

so chill. each of us has his/her own way to deal with the sad events.



Nir Ofek, Jun 13, 2007 @ 15:56

only expressing my feelings just like anyone else here.

I know that Marco's father appreciated all the comments from Marco's friends and fellow GOLers, and I was not commenting on that part, but rather 1) on the choc of finding out that a friend has died through a posting on the front page of GOL before even having had the time to log in. A private message to his friends first and then waiting a day or two before publicly posting the tragedy would have been appreciated, at least by me, and would still allowed time for comments by fellow GOLers.

2) There is a difference between the postings related to his accident with comments from his friends and even from people that have never met him, and postings about subjects that do not touch him directly but are rather your reaction to his death and here the mentioning of his name in the headline seems unnecessary to me as the issue is not how Marco's death touches us but how the death of someone you know touches you, and even though Marco was extremely well liked by many people, he did not know the 10'000+ members of GOL who might also have lost someone close and could participate in the discussion if it had not been linked to Marco.

I don't care if you discuss religion - belief in any kind is something personal that each person has the right to express and it does not bother me in any way, this was not the issue of my posting. Now, I don't believe that you were trying to sell your thread Nir, since anything you write is always well read by the members anyway, also because your comments are written in bold, what I was asking for was a bit of consideration, and perhaps taking the time to think once or twice before posting things that might be sensitive to others. And I am not the only one thinking like this, though not everyone is as expressive and like to show their thoughts in public - but the reaction from a shyer member to my posting above was the following:

“Hi there - just wanted to share that I too feel uncomfortable with a topic that discusses Marco's passing away. I wanted to write something similar. I am glad that you wrote up your thoughts. Best Rgrds.”

In short; I do not want any other friend ever to have to learn about the passing away of a friend of theirs on the first page of an event forum, and I would like to ask for a bit of discretion when posting threads as some subjects are more sensitive then others and should be treated with a bit more care.

Thanks, Helena

LNA__, Jun 13, 2007 @ 16:52

Got it. Thanks mate. (nt)
Nir Ofek, Jun 13, 2007 @ 16:58

After reading your comments, I feel a need to extend an apology. Turning someone’s untimely and tragic death into a forum to discuss how we should all call grandma and brush our teeth more is really inappropriate.

To say that we’ve learned something from some else’s death can inadvertently imply that it is something other than a tragedy and no one who loses a loved one should ever be asked to ‘look on the bright side’ despite a human instinct to find meaning and purpose in it. (hence the religious tone that has played out)

I think this overall topic is legitimate but the forum itself was perhaps misdirected. Despite any appearance of disrespect, please appreciate that NONE of us had that intent.

My apologies and condolences.

Riley

Riley, Jun 14, 2007 @ 16:59