You're so right; it has already spread as far as Connecticut.

Seattle, Chicago and counting ...

By the way people are asking where are the women. This is where:

http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=511900622158&set=a.510059606568.12125.226700094

Syria immediately disrupts internet. Guess what's coming: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/28/syria-internet-down_n_815337.html

And New York City too.

Sudan rising up.

16,000 to attend the protests. Bashir was a bit slow with banning blocking Facebook:

http://www.facebook.com/#!/event.php?eid=166512193395282

I didnt know there where any christians left in Egypt, 

Well its always a good thing when  muslims start cleaning up their own house instead of blaming Israel and the West.

--

Good show

Since when was glocals a political forum?  Can we please keep it "light" people!? Yes, these are important issues of course (to some/all? people) but I don't think that's what we're really here for....and I don't actually think its helping the glocals community - if I'm wrong, then please tell me and I will stand corrected and back off the thread (or think of something really wicked to hijack it with - oooooo! Matron, I never said that!!).

Thank you sweetness people xxxxx

given the fact that we live in democracy, we should be able to express our opinions and ask others on some politics topics without triggering the 3rd world war ! there's been threads on swiss referendums !
Swiss politicians from the far right .

Kind regards.

Perhaps...

One good way to do this would be refraining from thanking people for their provocative comments.

Of course the West, specifically the United States, has been responsible for propping up the current regime for decades, to the tune of billions of US taxpayers dollars. 

As far as I'm concerned (as well as many others in the US), the US government should have cut drastically aid to Egypt --- as well as Israel [3 billion US dollars per annum ]-- years ago. 

http://politicalcorrection.org/fpmatters/

Scroll down to read other articles about US-Israel-Egypt relations, particularly just how "grateful" Netanyahu is for US assistance .

Feel free to hijack the thread and turn it into some lowest-common-denominator-crap.  Must be nice not to give a damn.

Sorry, perhaps I didn't understand, but are you describing yourself as a Swiss politician from the far right? 

Best regards (depending upon the reply )

A current events debate is inherent in Glocals nature - it being an international community of highly educated international professionals, who are hopefully internationally-minded. Current events include the latest party, music, cool spa - and yes, the latest news.

I see the protests sweeping through the Arab world as the single most imortant and high profile event this weekend - and perhaps the single most important event, which has hit us and will be there for a long time.

From the US perspective, Obama is facing the decision of his term. Forget about health care, tax reform, etc. No, it's right here - this one. As you pointed out, Mubarak is just so comfortable to the US just where he has been for 30 years. But I feel the ambivalent rhetoric of the Admin., including Clinton's statement today, shows us it can't be a one-sided approach. In this context, it just can't be.

In the end, what is the US going to do if the revolution spread all across the region. By tweeting extensively on the issue this weekend, one message came through and was tweeted and retweeted again and again - the plan for all other contries to rise up.

Protests already organized: Sudan Jan30, Yemen Feb3, Syria Feb5, Algeria Feb12, Feb14 Bahrain. Some even talk about Lybia following in late February.

I feel like we are facing a sweeping change of history. Indeed, what happens in Egypt doesn't stay in Egypt.

I was refering to Carolyn C post...

¨One thing the US government might do is to work with its extensive contacts within the Egyptian Army to try to ensure the physical protection of El Baradei, amongst others....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_ElBaradei

Yes, I've also thought that, being a laic, Mohammed El Baradei could certainly be at risk.

So how do you think the relations in the military would play out?I heard an argument today from a Bulgarian blogger (unfortunately the text is only available in Bulgarian) that while the police historically has always been chosen from the rich elite families, the military on the other hand is with the people. Officers and commanders are regular people - which by looking at the photos - I certainly believe. I got reminded today of the Russian revolution and the crucial role of the military - the regime was overthrown at the moment when the military just couldnt continue firing at people. But how do you think this would play out in Egypt? They would still have to face the police perhaps?

I would really appreciate if someone could share a bit more if they know how this difference between military and police in Egypt has played out historically - find ir fascinating.

With the military being pro-people would the US effort work to protect Baradei? Why is he a key in that context? Would really appreciate if you can share more about him.

No one can say.  The BBC has some very good commentators and analysts discussing the developments.

Well, to quote former US Secretary of Defense [and master of the art of circumlocution] Donald (Rummy) Rumsfeld:

"There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know."

El Baradei  is a known known and appears have significant support from the protesters, at least at the moment. He has worked with world leaders, most recently from his post as head of the International Atomic Energy Agency. Having had that experience, it is highly likely that he has very good understanding of how the various levels of the security apparatus matrix generally

Without a unifying secular figure such as El Baradei, the Muslim Brotherhood might move into any power vaccum.  Fears of  Muslim Brotherhood-dominated transition government could lead to disastrous consequences in the region.

The effect of the media is also unpredictable. And there are certainly many unknown -unknowns with respect to how the police, military, and intelligence officials will interact.

I wonder whether the Swiss are already looking into freezing any Mubarak-regime -related assets.

I would also like to hear from any Egypt experts on the issue.

Here is a link to a BBC article about the Armed Forces and the other elements of the security apparatus..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12312337

Of all the major new networks, Al Jazeera probably has the most media resources on the ground and has lots of interesting background articles, including this one in which El Baradei calls for US to end support for Mubarak...

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/01/201113020265198814.html

glocals is not a political forum but the websites contains a forum section where a variety (majority non-political) are present to facilitate communication and contact between glocalites on issues that concern them be it shopping, restaurants, books, films etc.  In our personal profiles there is the opportunity to put 'politics' as an interest and as we are an interrnational community with many having expereince in politically charged parts of the world it is understandable that like minded people seek each other out to discuss and share information and experiences.  Should you wish to keep it light then restrict yourself to the light forums.

Sorry I didn't make my last post clear that it was in response to that of Carolyn C.

Not meaning to dismiss El Baradei (I think he did a fine job standing up to international pressure to lie about Iran's nuclear activity to which it has a right under the non-proliferation treaty which by the way Israel has not signed) but he has been out of the country for some time and might not have a following to support him.  (Though the same could be said about Lenin who unfortunately usurped the genuine peasant revolution against the Tsar). I have seen criticism of him as well that he hasn't been visible and outspoken enough but under such a regime this might be wise.  As well the BBC (not necessarily a reliable source of reporting/analysis) reported earlier this morning that when he was addressing a crowd few were listening. That comment seems to have disappeared in subsequent articles at the BBC website.

The history of the ME since the end of the Ottoman empire has been about securing trade routes (France) and oil (Britain and later the U.S.).  Britain (and the U.S.) have always feared nationalism i.e. a leadership that acts in the interest of their own people.  This is also true of U.S. foreign policy in the Americas and globally. The ME is about oil and Egypt and Saudi Arabia have been loyal allies of Britain and the U.S. in ensuring their (and the west generally) access to the oil while denying the benefits of that resource to the people under whose feet it is present.  Politics (and business) make for strange bedfellows - I am just beginning to read Mark Curtis' new book http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_53?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=secret+affairs+britain%27s+collusion+with+radical+islam&sprefix=secret+affairs+britain%27s+collusion+with+radical+islam on how Britain has (and still does) colluded with Muslim fundamentalist groupings including the Muslim Brotherhood. Britain, the US and other countries are not moral actors but act in what they perceive to be their interest (not necessarily to be assumed to be the interest of the population of these countries) and will cooperate with virtually anyone or grouping. Divide  and rule is the name of the game as any reading of Britain's colonial history in India/Pakistan will show.

What will happen in Egypt is anyone's guess.  It might fizzle out, be crushed a la Tianemen or Mubarak might flee to be replaced by another dictator (US or not US supported) but what is likely to remain a constant is the interest of the west including Israel in Egypt and its strategic role in the region centering around oil, the Suez canal and undermining Arab nationalism(s) throughout the region.

Change can only come from within.....

Change does indeed come from within, but have you personally actually practiced i.e. managed to actually achieve whatever change you aspired to?  My personal experience is that it's very easy to understand things intellectually but it's shifting the emotional base the conditioning that is a part of us all and actually creating new actions/routines to create new behaviour patterns/thoughts, and so more desireable outcomes.  In societies where people are literally indoctrinated, escapism seems improbable.  So to continue...it's the actual effective "implementation" that is at the origin of any change and the biggest challenge.  Granted thought "awareness" is at least a window of opportunity.

Dear wendi4y, not meaning to be pedantic nor play semantic word games with you, I would reply what type of change are you talking about?  Whatever type - personal, national etc. -  is influenced by often (if not always) a multitude of factors and people.  Think of your own life and I'm sure you can think of people who have had profound influences on you.  At some point we turn away from ideas and behaviors inherited from our families and parents as well as friends.  Granted you can lead a horse to water but not make it drink but I think to assume (sorry if I put words in your mouth) that all (wo)men are an island and that change ONLY comes from within is a bit naive.  As for national change, history is replete with examples of change good and bad (according to one's biases and standpoint) that have come from without.  The whole colonial period or that since Columbus 'discovered' (I think there were people in Hispaniola at the time - Columbus certainly wrote about it and went about slaughtering them) is one of change from without in various parts throughout the world (often if not always in collusion with some within i.e. the divide and conquer game with indigenous favored elites but the colonists holding real power. Still I do believe that peoples of a nation or geographic area etc. should be left alone and allowed to make their own changes.  However it would be naive to think given history and our current world with the current power elites (political, economic, financial, business, academic etc) that this will occur.  I don't favour intervention (genuine help/assistance yes; intervention no) by any power including the UN.  I only hope that the people of all countries solve their internal problems as amicably, fairly and peacefully as possible. Anyways enough of my rant; suffice it to say I disagree with you entirely (at least if I have understood you correctly - as Groucho Marx said "Those are my principles and if you dont like them, well, I have others").

If I understand you correctly I agree we are both thinking/rational and emotional beings and 'knowing' something and actually making the change are not the same thing.  We are often our own worst enemy and I know that from personal experience.  I assume you mean 'escape' and not 'escapism' because it is indeed difficult to escape from indoctrination be it political or commercial i.e. advertising for more and more consumption and the belief in the good of a growth in GDP (an arbitrary construct whose contents change according to the whims of those with power) as opposed to the Gross Domestic Happiness Index (google that or look at Bhutan or this website: http://grittv.org/2011/01/27/laurie-penny-the-economics-of-happiness-and-snow-justice/ or this one http://www.theeconomicsofhappiness.org/ Indoctrination is (almost?) a form of escapsim.  Finally, I agree with your conclusion about awareness and implementation..

Yes there are Copts who like many others in Egypt are repressed but a resilient and persist - but their existence or not wasn't your point was it!?

As the late Palestinian/American political writer and Professor of English literature at Columbia University  Edward Said http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Said has said, the Arab world (its political and intellectual leaders) bear a great burden of responsibility for much of the misery in the ME and its lack/paucity of political and intellectual development.  However Said and many others (Chomsky, Uri Avnery, Ilan Pappe, Benny Morris are but a few examples) also have shown that a great deal (all?) of the causes of the current state of affairs in the ME are due to Britain, the U.S., Israel, France and other western countries with the aid of their puppets. For Britain's role and its collusion with Muslim fundamentalism and the creation of the House of Saud (remember Lawrence of Arabia) see Mark Curtis: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=mark+curtis If you'd like to read about the Saudi puppet family I would recommend 'The rise, corruption and coming fall of The House of Saud bu Said K. Aburrish: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_12?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=said+aburish&sprefix=said+aburish

OK a quick search will help you out on this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Egypt#Christian_Denominations_in_Egypt_by_number_of_adherents

according to that article millions. in fact according to another article from wikipedia (which means it may not be accurate)

"The largest Christian community in the Middle East are the Copts of Egypt, whose churches are mainly divided into:

As for the next comment apart from being an predominately Muslim country this doesn't make this actions Muslim. Like wise if people took to the streets for any reason in Holland, Switzerland, France or the UK, etc... it is not a Christian Action.

This is far more important than who's religion is right, it's about human rights and may have a serious affect worldwide.

quote from the article Translator linked to:

"For the record, its "freedom, democracy, an end to police torture, and a more committed government effort to address" poverty, the Christian Science Monitor says"

In the short term we who live comfortably in the west probably are going to be affected by this domino effect by an increase in prices of most goods, which at this moment due to the global economic crisis is worrying.

However in the long term (i.e. for our children) the move toward democracy and later increased education and living standards in the Middle east can be only considered a good thing.

Please do not make the mistake of confusing religion, socio-political matters, and forms of government. It is entirely possible to have a Communist, Democratic, Muslim nation - Like wise it is possible to have a Capitalistic, Christian Dictatorship.

Most countries in the Middle east have Christians - Irag Christian population is 3% of the population which is the same as the percentage of Muslims in the UK. Even Iran has about 300,000 Christians.

Also Tariq Aziz is Christian - So the Iraq war couldn't really be considered a Muslim/Christian conflict either.

Strangely enough I can't find out where in this post Christianity was previously mentioned. Could you please clarify?

If not please refrain from trying to make this another religious debate, and please stop this sort of association Muslim - Bad, Christian - Good

Before you ask I am not: Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist or slightly religious but I will defend everyone's right to believe in what they wish - as long they don't force it on or harm anyone else.

Didn't you guys notice something strange in the reporting of the news by mainstream media?

I wrote about the Sudan protests to the New York Times yesterday and they had a journalist start writing a story. I put her in touch with some organizers and threw her way a lot of info as to how this related to the whole region rising.There is a thread going around Twitter being retweeted again and again with the dates for protests in syria, yemen, algeria, bahrain, lybia, morocco - all through out february, spreading after tunisia and egypt.

But none of the mainstream western media picks up the 'revolution' angle.People have planned the protests already ... Check out how the New York Times article came through:http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/31/world/africa/31unrest.html

Now in this case we can't assume that there are things journalists just don't get to see or hear. The planning is all over twitter and in this case at least I know for sure that I sent her that information so it's not the case that she didn't know.

On the other hand, my mom says that in Bulgaria the media keeps talking about the domino effect. I read a good article on Al Jazeera (thanks to Translator for the link) on how Syria is watching: http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/features/2011/01/2011129132243891877.html Again in that article there is reference to the domino effect theory - one cab driver is even joking that soon the Saudies would need to build a whole village for exhiled Arab Presidents, after the Tunisian President was hosted in Saudi Arabia.

Is it just me or are we facing an obvious Western media bias here? Is the rest of the media also talking about the domino effect and I have just missed it? Because I didn't see a reference to it anywhere in the reports of the Sudan protests. Perhaps commentators and analysts in mainstream media are refering to the domino effect, but not reporters on the ground? Let me know of your impressions.

"To understand the importance of what's going in Egypt, take the barricades of 1968 (for a good youthful zing), throw them into a mixer with 1989 and blend to produce the potent brew that the popular uprising in Egypt is preparing to offer the entire region. It's the most exciting time of my life.

How did they do it? Why now? What took so long? These are the questions I face on news shows scrambling to understand. I struggle with the magnitude of my feelings of watching as my country revolts and I give into tears when I hear my father's Arabic-inflected accent in the English of Egyptian men screaming at television cameras through tear gas: "I'm doing this for my children. What life is this?"

And Arabs from the Mashreq to the Maghreb are watching, egging on those protesters to topple Hosni Mubarak who has ruled Egypt for 30 years, because they know if he goes, all the other old men will follow, those who have smothered their countries with one hand and robbed them blind with the other. Mubarak is the Berlin Wall. "Down, down with Hosni Mubarak," resonates through the whole region".

My two cents (or five):

What is happening in Tunisia and now Egypt is indeed historic.  These revolutions do not appear to be driven by any particular religious or political ideology aside from "get the thugs out of government".  Since all of the Arab states share essentially a common history (Arab-Islamic conquest, crusades, Ottoman Empire, European colonialism, Arab nationalism and varying levels of involvement in the cold-war/Arab-Israeli conflict), what happens in one can and will propagate to the others.  And well, Egypt is largest in terms of population at least...

It's not fair to blame the US entirely for lack of democracy in the Arab world however.  The current Egyptian regime began its life in the 50's under Gamal Nassar as a Soviet client-state.  And Syria, which has an even more repressive government was never aligned or supported by the United States.  They were also beholden to the USSR to some extent, but the cold war has been over for 20 years, and Syria has become no more democratic.  Hopefully that will change as a consequence of the current events in Egypt.

As for the  weak and non-commital reaction from the West to the current situation in Egypt, while it's true that the major powers have always cared more about their interested in the middle east than good governance, there is also genuine concern that the fall of Mubarak's regime may cause more problems than it solves.  This is no excuse for the West to support dictatorships of course.

The Israelis and Palestinians find themselves in a different situation however.  (Both Israeli and Palestinian leadership have expressed quiet but clear preference for Mubarak to stay or at least for some continuity).  This is understandable.  Israel is too small and isolated in the region for good governance in Egypt to be within the scope of their foreign policy responsibilities.  They remember well the 4 full-scale wars fought between Israel and Egypt between 1947-73 and don't wish to take a step backwards from their ultimate goal of normalization with the Arab world.  The Palestinians fear even more than the West the possible rise of the Muslim Brotherhood and the implications for the situation in the Hamas-controlled Gaza strip.  They also view the current Egyptian regime as a strong mediator both between the Palestinian factions, and between the Palestinians and the Israelis.

Palestinians and Israelis should keep in mind though, that for once this isn't about them.  Hopefully the pessimists are wrong (sic) and Egypt can arrive at some manner of democratic system while continuing (or even increasing) to play a constructive role in the affairs of their neighbours...

Ivet, as an aside on the subject of looting, and in particular the symbolism surrounding the museum, it's important to keep in mind that having a country run by bad leaders is not a reason to burn the entire country down.  The cultural and historical heritage of Egypt rightfully belongs to the Egyptians.  Even if it has been abused as so many other things by the regime, it is still the responsibility of the people to preserve it, so that it can be properly enjoyed in the better times which are hopefully to come.

As far as the appropriateness of such political discussions on this forum, as long as the participants are respectful and mature, I think it's simply a case of to each their own interest.  If events in Egypt have some mindshare in the community here, then why not discuss it?

Cheers,

Josh

Powerful

I wonder if the fears about the Muslim Brotherhood being in power are founded: http://www.truth-out.org/elbaradei-muslim-brotherhood-offer-political-path-out-egyptian-confrontation67291 The article offers some insight as to what might be the way forward including the Brotherhood in the political process.

I heard views that the fears of the Muslim Brotherhood in the larger region are brought up usually with a completely different purpose and not well founded.

All media is biased in one way or another. 

Major mainstream newspapers and news website in the US are sometimes good in longer, investigative reporting pieces.  They really don't have the resources on the ground in most of these countries and can't be expected to print every fast-breaking or rapidly developing story. In these cases, journalists and others are watching television and/or internet broadcasts for latest developments.

Of course, the NYTimes knows what is going on in Sudan. Their bosses may not have deemed it important to post the story as the events are happening.  They are getting their information second  hand and it is important that some verification of the facts as they can be determined at that point in time.

It is very interesting to watch and read how these governments are trying to censor Al Jazeera and local journalists.  People in country are finding creative ways of getting the news out and informing compatriots in other areas of the country what is going on in their city.

<<<  it's important to keep in mind that having a country run by bad leaders is not a reason to burn the entire country down.  The cultural and historical heritage of Egypt rightfully belongs to the Egyptians.  Even if it has been abused as so many other things by the regime, it is still the responsibility of the people to preserve it, so that it can be properly enjoyed in the better times which are hopefully to come. >>>

A very well-stated opinion and I echo your sentiments. Thanks.

I agree that it's very difficult to guage the exact intentions of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.  They are at least pragmatic to some extent.  But this also means they have intentionally been keeping a low-profile.  As Egypt transitions towards a more open system and ultimately free and fair elections, ultimately the Muslim Brotherhood will (and should) participate.  The question is how much power they will get in the polls, and how they will seek to use it.

Don't forget (and the Palestinians certainly don't) that Hamas was the victor in legislative elections in 2006.  Then when they weren't satisfied with the scope of their powers through legal and democratic means, they staged an armed takeover of the Gaza strip, a historic setback for the Palestinians which persists to this day.

Clearly Egypt is not Gaza, but external concerns about the Muslim Brotherhood have at least not materialized in a vacuum.

Yes all media and individual are biased. (As Howard Zinn said "You can't be neutral on a moving train"). It is when they try to hide this bias and appear impartial that one be concerned about especially if you are the reading public and put some faith in the honesty and impartiality of the reporting - having to always read between the lines is tiring but that is the way of the media worrld.

Al Jazeera has always been a thorn in the side of many Arab regimes and recently the Palestinian Authority (sic) as well as the US who bombed them twice while knowing full well where Al Jazeera was as all journalists give their coordinates to warring factions to avoid 'mistakes' as a BBC reporter informed John Pilger for his latest documentary on the war you don't see on the press manipulation by militaries, governments and also the media's own self censorship: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7wXhN5h_Pg

As to whether Hamas staged an armed takeover is open to debate.  They won fair and square in elections judged by many observers to have been free.  The problem was the Palestinians voted for the wrong side in the view of the Americans, Israelis and the quisling PA.  It is for that reason the PA attempted a takeover of Gaza and Hamas defeated them.  And now the the Gazans must be put on a diet as one Israeli minister is quoted as saying and we have the blockade aided by their ally the dictator Mubarak.  You may wish to read any of numerous articles by the Ha'aretz (Israel) reporter Amira Hass who has lived (and still might be living) in Gaza by searching her name at Counterpunch.org.  Here are the search results if you are interested: http://www.google.com/search?q=Amira+Haas&domains=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.counterpunch.org&sitesearch=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.counterpunch.org#hl=en&domains=http://www.counterpunch.org&sitesearch=http://www.counterpunch.org&sa=X&ei=rNFGTZeLLs-LswaCgamoDg&ved=0CBcQBSgA&q=Amira+Hass&spell=1&fp=cd54b05788caf21d

The MB certainly did not materilaise in a vacuum - Britain di a lot to help them stay alive http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=mark+curtis

They did report on Sudan. So they do report - thankfully. My concern was the lens (Student protests following the protests in Egypt and the referendum). Mainstream media such as Reuters, NY TImes, BBC are avoiding the larger - and in my view much more newsworhy lens (Protests against dictators sweeping the region, protests planned in Arab countries throughout February).

Like they want to play it down a bit. Or are very careful? Isn't it welcome? I don't want them to report on what will happen before it has - but the organization of mass scale chain protests is in itself newsworthy - especially when you write an article about Sudan following Egypt. This shying away is what bothers me.

This is getting off-topic, and I apologize for contributing to this, but I'll at least respond ;)

It's certainly true that external and Israeli pressure contributed to tensions between Hamas and Fatah after the 2006 elections.  However, the Palestinian Authority (which is supposed to be a set of legal institutions which transcends just Fatah) was attempting to take seriously the separation of legislative and executive powers.  Hamas won the 2006 legislative elections and then wanted executive (or at least security) control, in complete contravention of Palestinian law, which in this aspect was founded on laudable principles of separation of powers.  When Hamas didn't get what they wanted through political means, they seized it by force.

One can certainly argue whether the reaction of Israel and the international community was appropriate (both to Hamas' initial election victory and subsequent armed takeover), but it's highly dubious to argue that Hamas is a positive actor there.

That's it. Al Jazeera blacked out across most of US: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/30/al-jazeera-english-us_n_816030.html?ref=fb&src=sp

Don't get any ideas, Americans - just watch CNN - that's enough. No revolution just people protesting freedoms and the ban of Twitter.And it's this one bad dictator - it's not the region rising cause they are poor and sick of dictators and big companies getting their oil.

I was in no way saying that the USG is entirely to blame for lack of regime change in Egypt.

The USG is, however, the major source of foreign assistance to Egypt, Israel and the Palestinian Authority. In fact, US foreign and military assistance has enabled Israel to become a major arms exporter. (The US has had to repeatedly object to Israel's attempts to re-export US military technology to China and other nations.) [See this link: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf, pages 7 and 8]

Aside from what might be called the Tunsian political tsunami, another reason that "people power" is erupting in Egypt is that Mubarak has been trying set up a succession for his son, Gamal.  (Al Jazeera reports that he has left Egypt and may be in London.)

It is highly likely that Mubarak would not have remained in power without US financial and political support.  This policy and practice stems from the Camp David Accords. The main reason for the US backing of Mubarak was to ensure Israel had at least one fairly stable Arab nation ally in the region. 

Of course many of the Arab nations rail about the cause of the Palestinians but most don't really give a damn about them except to the extent their plight serves as a reason to call for the destruction of the State of Israel.

As long as there was no progress on the Israeli-Palestinian issue, USG was stymied in its efforts to persuade Mubarak to allow democratic, free and fair elections.

On the US-Israel-relations side, this article in Tikkun magazine explains quite in detail the problems the US has been having with the Netanyahu government.

http://www.tikkun.org/article.php/20101220091913276

For those that don't  have time to read the whole article, here is an exerpt:

"If the Obama administration wants to advance peace, it should attach strict conditions on aid to Israel.

The Obama administration has abandoned its feckless effort to induce Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu to accept a 90-day settlement freeze designed to kick start peace negotiations - and save Israel from suicidal settlement expansion.
 
Any doubt that the settlements could be Israel's death warrant should have been eliminated by the recent fire that consumed northern Israel. The Minister of the Interior, an ultra-Orthodox 18th-century man - and 21st century political hack - named Eli Yishai chose funneling resources to settlements rather than investing in firefighting equipment.
 
This is typical. The ultra-Orthodox settlers have little use for Israel itself. They really only care about Biblical Israel (which is mostly the West Bank). What's a fire in boring old pre-'67 Israel to a Bible-thumping fanatic like Yishai and his Shas Party? He's got Palestinians to drive out of their homes.
 
In any case, the Obama administration had offered Netanyahu an astonishing $3.5bn for a 90-day freeze in part of the West Bank (in addition to the annual $3.5bn aid package), plus the promise to use our veto in the UN Security Council on Israel's behalf. And most importantly, the US pledged to never ever ask Israel for another settlement freeze again.
 
But Netanyahu hemmed and hawed and then demanded that the US offer be put in writing (to make it legally enforceable?) and President Obama balked. Imagine if, in the run-up to World War II, Winston Churchill had told FDR that he'd accept Lend-Lease or the Destroyers for Bases deals, but only if Roosevelt sent him a signed and notarized offer. (Forgive me for putting Netanyahu in the same paragraph with Churchill.)"

So many progressive US Jews (see,  this site: http://www.jstreet.org/) as well as many other US citizens believe US policy in the region needs to change.

For more information on US support for Israel and Egypt see  http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL32260.pdf

As for the Israeli government's views on the crisis, see this link http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/31/israel-egypt-mubarak-peace-treaty-fears?INTCMP=SRCH

One can only hope that further bloodshed in Egypt will be avoided and that the major parties in the region will come back to the table to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian issue as well as to establish and develop a functioning democracy in Egypt.

No one in their right mind would say the US is entirely to blame but it has been the major player on the block (with a minor side role played cynically by the USSR to further their own interests in the oil of the ME) since the the definitive end of British and French imperial aims with the Suez crisis and the US telling England, France and Israel to stay out of their region of interest and control. Edward Said was clear while critcising the US, Britain and Israel that the Arab political and intellectual communities had failed the Arab world.

No major power and certainly not the US is or has ever been interested in good governance unless you define good governance as governance that favours America's strategic and economic interests.  Look at the puppet regimes in South Viet Nam, the support by Ford and Kissinger for the Suharto as he killed 1/3 of the East Timorese (Britain helped as well with the sale of 'training' helicopters, the bloody murder of 600,000 Indonesians after Suharto's coup ousting Sukharno, the coup in 1973 (the first 9/11) against the democratically elected socialist government of Salvador Allende and the subsequent murder, torture and disappearances, the bloody Argentinian junta of the Generals, contras in Nicaragua, death squads in El Salvador witht the killing of US Maryknoll nuns and the assasination of Archbishop Romero, the overthrow of Bishop in Grenada, the Bay of pigs and thousands of assasination attempts revealed by the US congress Church committee - and I'm just getting started!

Israel is small! Don't tell the IDF who brag of being the 2nd most powerful military after the US and possesses around 200 nukes.

As for the Plestinian leadership (sic) Arafat cynically sold out years before his mysterious death and the US has been funding (read arming and training the PA militias) for some years now.  Abbas' presidency expired a couple years ago and there have been no elections since and he and his cronies are not very popular with West Bank bantustan Palestinians and of course with Hamas in mind are supportive of the brutal Mubarak dictatorship.  This is what some cynics call realpolitik! And how the impartial dictator Mubarak could be a mediator is beyond me.  Mediators are to be impartial n'est-ce pas?

As for those 4 wars, aside from the 1973 one where America had to in a panic restock Israel with arms as the arrogant IDF never expected Egypt to attack and then found themselves losing badly, Israel started all of them as Israeli politicians and military leaders freely admit in their biographies and oter media.

Other than that I agree with you.

Hamas IS a positive actor otherwise they wouldn't have been elected.  No government is perfect but any critique of Hamas pales in comparison to the Warsaw ghettoization of Gaza by the US, Israel, Egypt and EU.  Gaza has no navy, no air force nor major military arms.  Their airspace is controlled by Israel as is their coast and borders.  Fishermen are shot at and intimidated by the Israeli navy etc.  I challenge you to keep your nerve and emotions under control while trying to govern under such horrendous conditions reported by numerous individuals including American and Israeli Jews. To argue otherwise is to stick your head in the sand I'm afraid.  Europe should be ashamed and the world shoudl boycott, disinvest and sanction the apartheid state of Israel where Palestinians (described by Menachim Begin as four legged beasts) live worse than second class lives.  Carter and Tutu have both described Israel as an apartheid state.  Lebanon is also guilty by the way of maltreatment of the refugees living in their country.

Regardless of who started which wars, I think it's fair to say that a peace treaty between Egypt and Israel is preferable to a perpetual state of war.

The point I'm trying to make is that small nations (yes, Israel is a country of ~7 million compared to Egypt's 80, even if they do have a large military) facing existential issues (The ultimate resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian issues holds the future of both nations in the balance) can be forgiven for supporting a bad government to their south for the sake of their perceived interests/stability.

The United States and Europe should of course be held to a higher standard, and should support democracy and good governance even if it comes at the expense of their immediate economic and perceived political interests.  (I would argue that a free and prosporous Arab world is ultimately in everybody's interests)

Cheers,

Josh

Yes it would be like being in 1917 Russia and only reporting on the weather and the grain harvest!  Still even the so-called Russia expert Condoleeza Rice (aka Condescending lies) missed the collapse of the Soviet Union (as did the whole US establishment) saying just beforehand that it would continue indefinitely.  Some people and some media just aren't the experts we were brought up to believe they were!

Powerfully, clearly, rationally and logically argued with supporting documentation! Bravo! But then I'm biased as it is everything I have read but in other articles and books!  Can't be neutral on a moving train but you can be honest.

Yes Israel is small population-wise but it has survived all these years due to its immense military superiority and the corruption and maladministration of the Arab governments since Israel's creation.  Israel's existential crisis is of its own doing (with generous military, tax free American donations, and diplomatic support of Britain, the US and now the EU).  Hence only Israel is capable of undoing the mess and yes peace with Egypt is better than war which is why Sadat had on numerous occasions offered peace and was rejected by Israel just as the Palestinians are on every occasion.

I agree entirely (as does most of the Arab population) that resolution of the Palestinian issue is paramount for the region.  So many people inside and outside have tried to make this point to Israel (Chomsky and Uri Avney for example) yet Israel and their defenders have arrogantly dismissed or ignored such reasonable pleas and arguments.

Peace brother!  Because I know you also think 'what's so funny about peace, love and understanding'?

Finally, it came. The first Reuters article to call spade a spade. Thank you Alistair Lyon:

Egypt unrest shakes Arab world: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/01/31/us-egypt-protest-arabs-idUSTRE70U3J620110131

Marksist, being elected hardly qualifies one as a positive actor.  I infer from your tone that you are not actually interested in real peace between Israelis and Palestinians, the only reasonable path to which is a negotiated two-state solution, which is rejected even in principle by Hamas.

The characterization of Israel as an Apartheid state is also part of this fundamental mistake in the basic conception of a just solution in that part of the world.

Every Israeli Arab (ie Palestinian Israelis) (comprising ~20% of the Israel's population) has full citizenship and the right to vote.  (And there are even members of the Israeli legislature from more radical Arab parties which reject Israel's existence).  Israel offered full citizenship to the Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem when it was annexed after the 1967 war.  Israel has never annexed the West Bank or Gaza, and no Israeli government has ever offically claimed they are part of Israel.  It is implied in the peace treaties with Egypt, Jordan, and the PLO that the West Bank and Gaza (with exact borders to be negotiated) will eventually leave Israeli control.  Characterizing Israel as an Apartheid state implies that they intend to keep the territories in perpetuity and deny citizenship or voting rights to their inhabitants.  All reasonable actors rather support the two state solution in which Palestinians in Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza will be citizens of a state of their own.

  Some people do everything they can to disrupt and agitate against the peace process and leaders who support it.  One of the motivations for doing so can only be interpreted as a desire to avoid a two state solution and instead push for a one state solution which would imply the end of Israel's existence either by violence or by demographics.  Hamas is one of these groups (but at least they're honest about it).

Since this thread was supposed to be about the spread of democracy in the Arab world by popular uprising, I would suggest that this current line of discussion is not productive (or can at least be moved to another thread).

PUBLICITY CAMPAIGN for EGYPT - FEB 1 - Place Neuve from 17:00-20:00

Dear All, In addition for showing our support for EGYPT, we are also working on building awareness of what is happening in Egypt! What we have noticed from speaking to many locals here is a LACK of UNDERSTANDING and a deep concern for the future of EGYPT and how that will affect the Western World. Accordingly, we want to engage in dialogue!

Tomorrow's demonstrations have been scheduled for Place Neuve, a cultural center of Geneva with more pedestrian traffic. The time we chose is the time when people are going home from work and the tram station there will help in getting exposure for our cause.

I propose that in addition to what we have done in past demonstrations (Flags, Posters, media coverage, etc) we ALSO wear signs saying "ASK ME ABOUT EGYPT" and we engage in one on one dialogue with locals to explain what Egypt is doing and why.

Please encourage your NON-Egyptian friends to join us and LEARN and UNDERSTAND!

Thank you for your continued support and TA7YA MASR 7ORA MOSTAQELA!

A HOPEFUL Egyptian

I agree with what you say, and I am pretty sure revolutions will also start in other countries in the Middle East.

Now, it is probably true the international media covered the disctruction of the museum  A LOT, however, I wouldnt say the museum in Cairo represents the current regime, and neither justify the vandals just by saying the museum is only there for turists.

I lived in Cairo for 16 months, and I visited the museums so many times that i knew it in every corner. I have seen many little egyptian children with their teachers and an egyptian guide in school visits, or families with relatives coming to visit  from the upper egypt, etc.

Egyptians are extremely proud of their history, as shown a couple of days ago by the crowd gathered around the museum in an attempt to protect it from vandals. When I lived in Cairo, I even heard people stating they are the descendent of the Pharaos and not Arabs!

I have seen and I believe mass turisms had heavy effects on Egypt  and on Egyptians. It would make more sense for example  if Egyptians would destroy Sharm el Sheikh and similar locations, and kick out the Italians and Russians sun bathing on the beaches, cause that kind of turism is totally not Egyptian, and does not represent the Egyptian culture (Note i said Egyptian and not Arab or Muslim, I dont wanna open a debate on that) plus the people earning from that kind of activities are the ones who can afford beautiful western -looking shops, not the typical poor guy leaving in the "city of the deads" (the cemetery slum you mentioned, 800.000 inhabitants). Plus, turism represent a huge source of income, without whom Egyptiasn wouldt be less poor than now.  But the museum is another story, and I really hope in this chaos someone will protect it for future Egyptian generations and for all those people from abroad who will be interested in studying the ancient Egyptian history.

I am Italian, if Venice sinks I would think it is a pity for the world, not only for Venitians or Italians. Historical (as much as natural) heritage must be defended and promoted, anywhere and at any time. That's why it is considered World Heritage or humanity's heritage.

Thank you for posting interesting thread.

cheers,

robi

Hamas IS a positive actor otherwise they wouldn't have been elected.

Marksist

Hamas was elected because  Gaza's population was sick and tired of Fatah's corruption...

Yes and they do have popular support for doing social things for the people of Gaza and doing their best to refrain the Gazans from provoking the Israelis with rockets.  I did not maintain that Hamas is TOTALLY and ABSOLUTELY a positive actor but in reaction to the claim it isn't I maintain it is for the reasons stated.

Obviously being elected is not a guarantee of being a positive actor as all the landslide elections in the various dictatorships - communist, Asian etc. - attest to. One could also point to the Canadian minority government of Harper (though some do see his government as a 'positive' actor) or the stolen elections of Bush Jr..  You infer incorrectly and shouldn't listen to tone (it's just a ringing in your ears or a buzz in your head) but to words.  I, like you believe peace in the ME is important and that some wrongs of the past need to be redressed otherwise there will be no peace.  Not easy but good faith negotiations with give and take must take place.

In any country you will find fanatics who will want to get rid of a particular group of people but that doesn't mean they are necessarily representative of the majority.  Most Arabs just want peace, security, food and shelter, democracy and hope for the future like most human beings.  Even when the fool (in so many ways) Ahmadhinejad was quoted (speaking Farsi) as calling for the destruction of Israel he was misquoted i.e. mistranslated into English calling for the physical destruction of Israel he was saying in fact that the Jewish only Israel will eventually disappear as a natural result of history and the yearning of all for a real lasting and just peace.  And if you were in the Palestinians' shoes (empathy is the word) I think you might also be tempted to harbour ill will against Israeli Jews but what is remarkable throughout history is the ability of oppressed people to forgive their oppressors and live eventually in peace with them (think former black American slaves, victims of US supported violence in South and Central America, Viet Nam, East Timorese, North American Indians, European Jews).

 Israel and the ME are littered with peace treaties etc. and Israel has always together with the US been a rejectionist state - the recent leak or Palestinian Papers should make this obvious.  Whether it is one state or two I do not know - I would have hoped for a one state solution with equal rights for all but we may be beyond that now.  However two state is a misnomer because you have a West bank of bantustans and an isolated Gaza with no rights to its airspace or sea or borders and no means of defending itself i.e. no navy, no airforce or any of the other heavy military hardware America gives so generously to Israel. They wer put on a diet as an Israeli minister has said and much of their infrastructure - water, sanitation, hospitals, schools etc. - was destroyed. They can barely fish in their own waters due to being shot at by the Israeli navy in some cruel, sick sadistic game tormenting the four legged beasts as Menachem Begin called them.

I want fair and eqitable peace and believe that the Jews who are in Palestine currently have a right to be there because they are there not because of some mythological biblical story about their right to Eretz Israel.

As for citizenship rights, it is like the plight of Black Americans who enjoy on paper all the same rights and priviledges of whites and yet are systematically discriminated against in housing, jobs, education, overincarcerated, racialy profiled, etc.  Tell your story of equal rights to a Palestinian in Palestine or the diaspora and they will laugh in your face as will many Jews inside and outside of Israel.  It reminds me of the concept of the American dream which is just that - a dream. Or when Ghandi was asked on his tour of England what he thought of Western civilisation replied he thought it an interesting idea.  The point is equal rights is a pipe dream and it just aint true.  The separation wall cuts into Palestinain land and separates Palestinians from their olive fields.  Jewish only roads bisect Palestinian land turning what remains into separated bantustans.  Trips that should take minutes take hours as a result of the wall and these Jewish only roads.  Palestinian homes are razed for the flimsiest often illegal reasons and Palestinians have no recourse to justice in the Israeli legal system.  Palestinians cannot get building permits.  Palestinians children trying to get to school are shot at as are Palestinian farmers by settlers with absolutely no consequences for the offenders. Israel continues to build new settlements on occupied West Bank land and expand existing ones - you can even read this in staunch Israel supporting media as the New York Times so you cannot claim to be unaware of those facts on the ground.  Palestinians are harassed at border crossings often when they are in urgent need of medical attention.  In short the life of a Palestinian Arab or Christian is one of humiliation and systematic denial of basic human rights.  Desmond Tutu who knows a thing or two about apartheid (Dutch for apartness or separateness) has after visitng Israel, the occupied territories and Gaza, called Israel an aprtheid state.  Jimmy Carter who knows a thing or two about Israel/Palestine and as President naturally was a strong supporter of Israel selling them (often giving for free as loans are forgiven) advanced sophisticated weaponry, has called for peace not apartheid.  The Israeli lobby attacked him but he is powerful and they couldn't destroy him as they do any other individual who dares utter a single word of criticism against Israel.  His book was a bestseller on the NYT list for weeks and he wa warmly welcomed at Brandeis University: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandeis_University If this is your concept of equality then we need to collect all the dictionaries in the world and revise the definition!

You really should try reading some Amira Hass, Jewish Israeli journalist (Ha'aretz) daughter of Holocaust survivors who lives in Gaza and Ramallah and chronicles all the details I give above about the discrimination and humiliation of Palestinian Arabs and Christians in the occupied West Bank and Gaza.  To help you here is a list of her articles at Counterpunch: http://www.google.com/search?q=Amira+Hass&btnG=Google+Search&domains=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.counterpunch.org&sitesearch=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.counterpunch.org

Also to help you liberate yourself from your delusion of equal citizenship rights for Palestinians read Ury Avnery a patriotic soldier of the IDF in 1948: http://www.google.com/search?q=uri+avnery&btnG=Google+Search&domains=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.counterpunch.org&sitesearch=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.counterpunch.org or read his book '1948 A Soldier's Tale: The Bloody Road to Jerusalem: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=uri+avnery

Benny Morris a 'revisionist' historian also admits that Israel stole through war the Palestinians land and though honest he is immoral in saying it was the correct thing to do and justified.

Finally Israel is a fact and it is a critical factor in the ME and what is happening across the Arab world including Egypt so to separate the discussion of Israel/Palestine from that of Egypt would logically make no sense and serve no purpose to a true sharing of thoughts, ideas and opinions on these important topics nor a full understanding of the origins of the crises in the Arab and Israeli world.

In peace and the spirit of Geronimo.

Mark

Peoples, just wanna say that Egypt is not iran not Hamas or GAZA

in EGYPT we left 30 years of lays and dectator he's name MOUBARK

i am 29 years old one of this youth who make the revloation in egypt

who also never seen other president then moubark

the big lay of moubark that he make believe the international couminty's

if he leave there will be the muslem brothers THIS wrong idea

we want just democraty

Mark, I think you misunderstood what I said about equal rights.

There are two distinct (legally and politically) groups of people here.  The Israeli-Arabs are the Palestinians who remained in what became the State of Israel during the 1948 war.  They were granted full Israeli citizenship and have full voting and legal rights, even if it's true that there is still a lot of social and economic disparity compared to the Jewish majority.  Israel is not an apartheid state because it does not make any legal or political distinction based on race/ethnicity/religion.  The Palestinians in the occupied territories are not citizens of Israel, and their land (aside from annexed East Jerusalem) is not formally a part of Israel.  Their legal distinction is based on geography and political/military history.

The settlements are a historic mistake (in addition to being illegal), and the infrastructure which supports them indeed makes life unnecessarily difficult for the Palestinians in the West Bank.  This mistake will be corrected by any peace treaty however, and territorial contiguity in West Bank restored.  (Yes, Gaza is physically separated, this is a geographic reality, but all serious peace proposals have included some manner of transit corridor under nominal Palestinian control.)

On the day that Israel formally annexes the West Bank without giving full citizenship to all its residents, then I will agree that it is an Apartheid state.  The majority of Jewish Israelis don't want this and have never wanted it.  What Israelis want is a secure and democratic state of their own, which is the basic expression of self-determination.  A one state solution with equal rights would be either a binational state or a Palestinian state with a Jewish minority.  Aside from the practical difficulties of living together under one banner after so much animosity, this is not what Israelis want.  Zionism is really a misunderstood ideology.  It is originally a movement of secular, European Jews who came to believe that the Jews would never be to live in peace and fullfill their human potential in Europe.  Israelis have no desire to be a minority in their own country ("their own" not because they have a biblical right to some particlar peace of land, but because they have a collective right to have some piece of land somewhere to call their own).  (Leftist Israeli politician Yossi Beilin gives a very nice explanation of this at around the 20 minute mark in this NPR interview, followed by a very interesting and enlightening exchange with the interviewer)

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1962633 )

It's indeed understandable that Israelis and Palestinians harbour some degree of ill will towards each other.  Indeed they may never reconcile their respective historic narratives, blame for past suffering, etc.  Fortunately they only need to agree to reconcile their respective futures.  What the leaked "Palestine Papers" really show (once you look past the intential spinning of coverage by Al Jazeera to attack the Palestinian leadership and the peace process in general), is that the gap between Israeli and Palestinian positions are not so large, that a peace agreement is within their grasp.  If anything, the last round of talks failed to result in a final status agreement because the previous Israeli government ran out of time and political stability.

It is not accurate to blanket label Israel as a rejectionist state.  They have a diverse, fragmented, and complex political landscape and system.  Some parties and leaders are serious about peace and have acted in good faith to bring it about, and some are rejectionists.  I would tend to agree that the current Israeli government under Netanyahu is not serious about negotiating with the Palestinains or solving the conflict.  The previous government under Olmert seems to have been serious about an agreement, but didn't have the political capital to sign one.  So it goes that this is tricky business.  The Palestinian leadership have their own minefield of political legitimacy and public opinion to navigate in the context of any agreement as well as we have seen surrounding the leakded documents.

Peace is hard work, and it takes lots of time and effort to bring it about.  In addition to the words on the page, which will be many, it's an exercise in simultaneously marginalizing enough rejectionists on both sides, and boosting the concept of peace in the political systems and in public opinion.  There are people/organizations/politicians who are working towards this goal (which is the only viable solution to the conflict) and those who are stalling or working against it.  THAT is the real Israeli-Palestinian conflict, rejectionists against those who would welcome an agreement, not Palestinians against Israelis.

On the other hand, while all of this is absolutely critical to the future of Palestinians and Israelis and to the long term political stability of the of the Middle East, it really has very little to do with why Arabs are protesting in the streets of Tunisia or Egypt.  These are rather domestic issues behind it.  (But the question of Egyption relations with Israel and the Palestinians will indeed be not far behind the transition to any new government.)

And Fady, I really apologize for contributing to throwing this thread off-topic.  I think it's clear to us here that Egypt is not Iran or Gaza, I was only saying that those experiences contribute to Israeli and Palestinian unease about the current situation.  It's clear that the most important thing at this moment is for Egyptians to get for themselves a better government so that they can have a better life.

The foreign policy questions are really for the day/week/month after.

Cheers,

Josh

Carolyn C:

I want to apologize for responding in too harsh and uncivil manner to your comment.  I was thinking of all the people in Geneva and other places around the world who are worried for the safety of their relatives, friends and colleagues in Egypt. 

In addition, some of us pay taxes that go to support these dictators.  We don't want people killed using our money and it is incumbent upon us to use our political system to try to change these policies.

As Churchill said, '[i]t is better to jaw jaw than to war war.'

I can understand that some prefer light entertainment on these forums.  I sometimes join in as well.  I think, though, given the circumstances that we all could take a step back and consider what is at stake here. 

There may be many people in the Glocals community who would like to know that there is interest and solidarity for those in a difficult situation wherever they are in the world. 

Regards,

V.

World Radio Switzerland interview with Swiss-born, Tariq Ramadan, Professor of Contemporary Islamic Studies in the Faculty of Oriental Studies at Oxford University.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariq_Ramadan

http://worldradio.ch/wrs/news/switzerland/swiss-muslim-academic-egypt-is-not-tunisia.shtml?22889

Josh,

You have written a lot and quite eloquently and | have also been (perhaps more) verbose.  We might not 'be on the same page' but I believe we are reading the same book.  You make some very good points which I take note of and I will look into Bellin a name I haven't heard; thanks for the link. I think one must make a distinction between what is written on paper and the facts on the ground.  There is a difference as perhaps there always inevitably will be. Even treaties negotiated in good faith lead to honest differences in interpretation after the fact or new facts that were not covered or even conceived of can arise and pose 'problems' (challenges maybe a better word) to the treaty.  Even laws within democratic countries are unequally applied for a variety of reason - the quality of your lawyer, the bias of a judge, pressure from the community etc. 'Apartheid state' in my use and that of those others who use it is a descriptive term of the facts on the ground and not a legal definition.  In SA apartheid might have been incorporated into laws and might have been referred to as apartheid law no, 1, 2, 3 etc.  I don't know not having read enough about that subject.  But you don't need laws to have apartheid to have separateness and separate treatment. I still believe the Israeli state has been and remains rejectionist and that even though close to agreement Israel still doesn't find the accomodatons acceptable. How often have we heard the so close but no cigar conclusion of negotiations over the years? It makes one cynical that there is a intentional desire to scuttle negotiations and that it is all for show while Israel continues to establish settlements i.e. facts on the ground.  If you look at the map of Palestine partitoned by the UN in 1948 (?) and the areas given to various groups and that of today you see that what was given to Palestinians has diminished incredibly.  It's been a dynamic, gradual and relentless process of diminution. Hardly a roadmap to peace.

One needs to draw a distinction between the state/government/ruling civic elite and the general population and I agree that there are people outside of the latter on both sides who are generally working hard for a real lasting and acceptable peace. That was my point by referring to Uri Avnery, former member of the Knesset and co-founder of Gush Shalom. One could also mention Peace Now and the soldiers who are daring to come out and speak about atrocities and to refuse service.

I don't think you need to apologise for leading this discussion off topic.  In a very narrow sense what's happening in Egypt is a revolt of the people against their leadership and there is no discussion  about other countries and their problems.  However in a broader context and for those of us outside the context and country we see links and relevant points of similarity worth discussing.  And its been an interesting and informative discussion both on Egypt and the broader issue of ME peace.

Cheers!

Shalom.

M

Great discussion - learnt so much over the last days. And we were joint by one of the young Egyptian protestors.

Yes I learned a lot too and it was encouraging to see that at least their are a few glocalites who are concerrned, progressive, informed and humanitarian enough to share their opinions on such a topic even if we don't agree on every small nuance (but that is too be expected).

Article on Jordainian King's dismissal of cabinet:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/01/jordan-king-abdullah-prime-minister

Interesting the spread of popular rebellion.  I was at first cynical/pessimistic when Ivet first expressed she thought this would happen. However the question remains where will it all lead.  Hopefully to democracy (not necessarily in the neoliberal western mode we 'enjoy' at the moment).  But could it lead to 'radical Islam'.  Does radical Islam imply backwardness and repression or something brighter?  I don't know - I have very little knowledge of the various Islamic groupings be it the Muslim Brotherrhood or the radically fundamental backward repressive US allied British created Saudi Wahabbis (sp?). I'd be interested if anyone out there could supply sources of information giving more background on various Islamic organisations in any of the states of the region? Let us hope and pray that it remains peaceful for all inhabitants of the ME - Arab, Christian, Jew, Armenian.....and that the 'great' powers act wisely (wishful thinking, the latter given their reputaions!).

Intersting article on how it all started and progressed.  Young people and women. Intersting and encouraging.

http://counterpunch.org/alamin02012011.html

Egypt has been a mess since de-colonization.   Bring back the British administration to sort it out.  Ditto with Sudan.   And India.  And the US....The problem with Egypt is to stop the Islamic fundamentalists from gaining control as they have in Iran and are trying to in Iraq.   That's what it is all about. 

You cannot be serious ...

I see there are souls in Switzerland who have been sending this around. Tonight there will be a crowd in Geneva somewhere:

I prefer not to comment on the political folly, and I think I shall only leave an adage of a wise soul from the past: "The philsophers interpreted the world in various ways, the point is to change it."

Articleregarding importance of the Suez  Canal:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/feb/01/suez-canal-egypy-q-and-a

What you think when 10 MILLION OF EGYPTIANS has virouse C

cuz of the water drink imagine

when university of cairo was one of the best handred of the world classement

now become end of the five handred

when you work and you earn 30 TO 50 EUROS Per month this is if YOU find work 

egypt is 84 milion of poplation

40 % of them life with less then two dollars per day

wher the pertole money and toursime money

Nauheed Cyrusi (Hindi: नौहीद सॆरुसी) is an Indian model of ethnic Parsi of Iranian descent, VJ and actress. She was born on 19 October 1982. ...

She/he (?) 's not!

i will just talk about egypt as egyptian  egypt is not iran be sure and will not be

why the revolt in egypt cuz we want democracy real one

not muslem brother's

moubark with 30 years of power just show if he leave will be replaced by the islamic fundamentalists which is wrong

now its the youth who decide who will be the feature of egypt

and thank's for comment

Oooops .. busted

i will just talk about egypt as egyptian  egypt is not iran be sure and will not be

why the revolt in egypt cuz we want democracy real one

not muslem brother's

moubark with 30 years of power just show if he leave will be replaced by the islamic fundamentalists which is wrong

now its the youth who decide who will be the feature of egypt

and thank's for comment

Mubarak will be making a statement shortly on State TV. More propelled propagana then.

Its never a common wealth for the people, I would request Anna Naz do some bed time reading this fine ethereal evening. I suggest J Conrads Heart of Darkness, a little taster for it paints a little picture of truth:

"To tear treasure out of the bowels of the land was their desire, with no more moral purpose at the back of it than there is in burglars breaking into a safe. who paid the expenses of the noble enterprise i don't know; but the uncle of our manager was the leader of that lot."

Today 10:01 PM Mubarak: Choice Between Chaos And Stability

Mubarak says these incidents "require us all to choose between chaos or stability" and it's time for a "new Egyptian reality," formed by the people and the military both.

He says he's started to institute new measures to address the many issues facing the country and is making necessary amendments to restore stability and secure.

"These conditions are about to take us to the unknown," Mubarak says. There are "difficult tests" and some have "wreaked havoc" and caused violence during this time.

The peaceful protests have led to regretful violence and confrontation, he says.

WHILST:-

Al Jazeera reports that the crowd in Tahrir Square in Cairo is yelling "Freedom! Freedom!" and "Coming! Coming!" (popular slogan at these protests) as they wait for Mubarak to address the nation.

This is crazy people!!! He announced he will not run for re-election!

So for the US you support bringing back the indigenous native Americans?  Let's go find them on the reserves; whoever is left.  Or perhaps you meant freeing Leonard Peltier and reinvigorating the American Indian Movement.  Bring back the Soviets to Afghanistan the US to Indochina the Imperial Japanese to Manchuria, the Moghuls to India.  I'm with ya! Or why don't we all just go back to the cradles of civilisation or Oldavi?

So, would you consider the protests have been at least, partially successful? 

Lets hope for the best and maybe we have dentente that propagates into some of the other affected countries..... for a while.

Marksist: entertaining points. Let me add, why not flavour tonight with some Machevelian proposals.

Marksist: just jesting.

Regarding Mubarak and the generals:

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2011/01/mubarak-and-the-generals.html

Are you saying that all Muslims are Islamic fundamentalists?

If not please point out where it mentions that Fundamentalists are behind this revolt?

I am not denying that there are Islamic extremist groups but not all Islamic movements are extreme. Extremist or Fundamentalist groups are found in all mainstream religions - i.e Christian Fundamentalists (USA) and Highly orthodox Jewish Groups (Israel) spring to mind.

However if it comes down to a question about having oppressed people under a dictator and having a REAL democracy under Muslims - I happily accept the Muslims - Human rights should be rights regardless of whether you believe Jesus to have been the Son of God (Christians), a Major prophet and key historic figure (Muslims), or reject him because he doesn't pass the test(Jewish faith) or think he was a real smart guy with some great ideas 2000 years ago.

The reports from Egypt have stated that in the crowds there are Christians and Muslims working together for common goals. 

As I said before don't buy the idiotic line that Muslims are bad and Christians are automatically good.

No apologies necessary.  I have a Conrad anthology and am prepared to offer bedtime story telling services to those in need.

Article  from Jerusalem Post on a possible Mubarak successor

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=206272

Like reinstate Kissinger as Secretary of State or Blair as PM?  Methinks wethinks 'long simile lines!

http://www.counterpunch.org/baroud01282011.html

http://www.counterpunch.org/amiri06182010.html

http://www.counterpunch.org/amiri11062009.html

http://www.counterpunch.org/shukrallah03222003.html

No country is run soley by one man or woman: there is always a coterie and/or outside influencers/supporters:

Obama can also take advantage of the opportunity to implement much-needed structural changes in US foreign policy towards the region, by placing real conditions on the economic and military aid the US government provides to all undemocratic and repressive regimes in the region, including Israel, Jordan and Yemen, to help facilitate the efforts of the people of these countries to similarly regain their agency and make 'their own history'.

Significant cuts in aid to these states, coupled with an overall reduction in US military spending and an end to US aggression in the region, would have the effect of 'killing two birds with one stone', as it would also promote US government efforts to reduce the gaping US budget deficit in a more ethical manner than current proposals, which entail massive cuts to social spending. Going back to Obama's pre-election promises, that would be real 'change we can believe in'.http://counterpunch.org/mullin02012011.html

And to get back to change coming from within believers, this same article has an interesting quote from Karl Marx:Perhaps there is a further lesson they could take from Marx's 18th Brumaire, in which he made another of his most famous formulations, this time on the role individual agency plays in history: 'Men make their own history, but they do not make it as they please; they do not make it under self-selected circumstances, but under circumstances existing already, given and transmitted from the past.

Holy sh....! Egypt protesters attacked by camels and whips:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110202/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_egypt

Camels are bad for your health.

ElBaradei announced he'd run for president

If the powers that be allow him or others (see Translator's earlier post on the Arab League president) and if they are fair.  Also not to forget the whole coterie of the Mubarak era, the influence of the US (http://counterpunch.org/prashad02022011.html) and what will the replacements offer the peoples of the various countries where perhaps heads of state are replaced (http://counterpunch.org/tariq02022011.html)?

hi all

what happens in egypt does in fact influence the world

you can quote all kinds of journalists etc however i think that having lived

in the middle east and lived through wars i seriously doubt you can believe

democracy will occur

it is very well and easy in theory to say well the >hamas won fair and square

but dont forget they placed a man in jail for criticizing the regime in gaza on facebook

The protest is because people want affordable food and gas however

the moslem brothers are waiting to take over

Just today in the swiss papers the head of the Moslem organization in Geneva spoke of the humanistic values of the moslem brothers

see lebanon, etc etc etc

I dont trust any religious fanatics who wave a religious book as their guideline

circumcise females , cover them up and cut off body parts and heads

so if you are naive go ahead and think they are peace loving hippies

the atmosphere in egypt does not seem friendly

and i personally am pretty shocked that the masses damage the national museum it shows the same spirit in which the taliban destroyed an ancient

buddah that was standing for thousands of years

those who have no respect for their heritage are frightening ignorant masses

the CNN will show you a student but she is covered and once Mubarak is gone there will be a new tyrant, a puppet for the moslem brothers.

I have nothing against religions but those who use religion to execute and murder those who oppose them are waiting for their moment

have no doubt whatsoever

see what happened in Iran, afganistan

read the kite flyer and talk to those who live under Iranian rule

The situation will be worse, and there is no doubt in my mind the religious zealous will use this opportunity to take over

religion is the opium of the masses and this type of islam is going to spread and silent the moderates who survived

anyway , time will tell but i doubt there is any other possibility as there is no educational philosophical infrastructure for anything but extremism and oppression

In order to have a humanistic democracy that promotes human rights there needs to be an educational system and so far there is no indication of anything like that

obama is either underestimating the moslem brothers because he lives in his own fantasy world or he is a moslem brother too

The moslem brothers are not peaceful moslems

the peaceful moslems hide and not without a reason ...

p.s.

israel has no interest in the arab oil, dont forget we gave back sinai

rich in oil

israel wants to survive and lives in a tiny strip of land amongst extremism and racism , the christians arabs have fled any place the hamas rules, and not without a reason

@ star

"obama is either underestimating the moslem brothers because he lives in his own fantasy world or he is a moslem brother too"

Gee, I thought only Sarah Palin and the crack-pot tea partiers believed that kind of nonsense. 

Just so you know, there are lots of people in the US who could use the billions in assistance that US taxpayers furnish Israel and Egypt with on an annual basis. 

http://www.tikkun.org/article.php/20101220091913276

Please do some research and apply some intelligent thinking, before showing you are just another extremist, whether Christian, Jewish or Islamic...

3 Major religions (with hundreds if not THOUSANDS of factions) which all have there birth place in the same part of the world.

The Jewish faith - Jesus was Jewish - but the faith rejects him as the Messiah

The Christian faith - Jesus is the Son of God and Messiah, the faith quotes the 10 commandments of the Jewish faith

The Islamic faith - Which recognises Jesus as a Major prophet and a Messiah, but not Son of God, and also quotes almost the same 10 commandments. Nor was Muhammad the Son of God.

This is a case of cultural differences and point of view between factions of the same religion, although the differences are seen as huge they aren't really.

While I may worry about extreme Muslims I also worry about extreme Christians and extreme Jews.

Strangely enough I don't worry about extreme Buddhist's...

In the west someone says they are from a good Christian family we make them a world leader, the same goes for Muslim country's - hardly a surprise.

You say Allah, I say God, you say Yahweh, I say Jehovah .... lets call the whole thing off.

Seriously anyone coming on here and trying to make this about just religion needs to remember that religion is often use as an excuse to grab land or power.

And not by Muslims only

Like many Swiss in this region my family were Huguenots and because we were protestants we were 200 years ago forced to flee France and our lands. My family went to England, many came to Switzerland and others went to Germany.

And no it doesn't bother me - however it probably has made very interested in Religion and how it is abused. 

Yes I have read the Bible... twice, it's a good book, I move it between the reference and fiction section of my library.

These people want Freedom and democracy - fine - No Problem I support it and up until yesterday, I was surprised at how peaceful the demonstrations have been - and lets remember it was the pro-government supports who started the violence. Let them vote, let the UN monitor it, let the world watch and see if they can get it right. Regardless it can't be as bad as it is now - 30 years the same ruler...

If you want world peace stop fighting over who Jesus was and carry on with what he was try to do - Educate the masses. When the world is no longer frightened, hungry and is also educated and democratic, religion will stop being a reason/excuse to hurt one another, this will never happen under dictators - they fear all of the above.

Religion is a confusing interesting interwoven subject. It is not a reason for war, intolerance and hatred.

Now lets go bash the Greeks over a difference of opinion! Hades home was definitely as basis for the idea of hell and going on from there Zeus was also Jupiter and probably also Thor (the norse thunder god) and after that it just becomes fun to spot the similarities and links.

Cheers,

Chris

Just so you know, there are lots of people in the US who could use the billions in assistance that US taxpayers furnish Israel and Egypt with on an annual basis.

--

Funny how shitting on the only working democracy in the middle east has become fashionable under "intellectuals".

Are you saying that all Muslims are Islamic fundamentalists?

Lets here it from Ayaan Hirst Ali , one of the greatest fighters for Western liberties (quote) "Islam is backward"

[i]The Islamic faith - Which recognises Jesus as a Major prophet and a Messiah, but not Son of God, and also quotes almost the same 10 commandments. Nor was Muhammad the Son of God.[/i]

Well lets examine this prophet more closely:

+Pedophile (Aisha, 6 years old)

+Personally beheaded 300 jews who surrendered to him after they refused to fight on his side.

+"Married" many women (raped them after beheading their fathers , brothers and husbands in front of their eyes to mentally "break" them first)

+ Had many sex slaves

+ raided caravans ,even Miss Armstrong (one of the biggest defender of islam in the West) but calls this action "redistribution of wealth" and necessary at the time.

While I may worry about extreme Muslims I also worry about extreme Christians and extreme Jews.

Really?  http://www.aolnews.com/2010/09/15/molly-norris-artist-behind-everybody-draw-mohammad-day-cartoo/

Molly Norris, Artist Behind 'Everybody Draw Mohammed Day' Cartoon, Goes Into Hiding

I am pretty sure the crew of Monty Phython didnt have to do that after they made a mockery of the Christain religion in "life of brain".

@Translator

 (your quote) World Radio Switzerland interview with Swiss-born, Tariq Ramadan, Professor of Contemporary Islamic Studies in the Faculty of Oriental Studies at Oxford University.

HA HA HA,...,Funny how leftist always end up in the same camp as people on the American terrorist list.

http://dutch.berkeley.edu/mcnl/the-debate/tariq-ramadan/

1. During a 2003 debate, future French President Saroksy accused Ramadan of supporting the stoning of women.

2. In 2004, the State Department banned his from entering the US, and in 2007, Tariq Ramadan was forced to resign his post as a professor at the University of Utrecht [Netherlands, note from me].

Even the lefty crazies in the Netherlands cannot support him openly after the typical bashing of homosexuals and supporting Irans deathsentence for gays (what you would expect from reli-nutcases and muslims)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/19/tariq-ramadan-islamic-sch_n_263253.html

Transposer:(quote) Just so you know, there are lots of people in the US who could use the billions in assistance that US taxpayers furnish Israel and Egypt with on an annual basis

Lets put things a bit is perspective shall we?

1.Bayling out banks (1.2 trillion )

2.Military aid to Pakistan (10 billion) -> Not a democracy, stoning of women by law, etc

3.Military aid to Saudi Arabia->(ended slavery in 1964, beheading of gay's)  10 billion

Military aid to Israel: 3 billion.

@Chris:

Seriously anyone coming on here and trying to make this about just religion needs to remember that religion is often use as an excuse to grab land or power.

Yeah, now you know why mohammed created that religion. Give him and his followers excuse to the second incarnation of Attilla the Hun.

Hamas was elected because  Gaza's population was sick and tired of Fatah's corruption...

LOOOL, like Americans voted for Oblowme after 8 years of Bush.

from worse to even "worser" (I really thought that wasnt possible)

Funny but sad.  Your reply has no bearing on the comment of Translator regarding the military aid to Egypt and Israel.  That Americans would prefer that money to stay at home to help with their financial/economic/job/housing/infrastructure/educational/environmental crises is something you  don't understand or empathise with? Such sentiments are to be conflated with defecating.  you have an unusual understanding of physiology and a poor talent of sophistry but damn good at obfuscation.  And 'intellectuals' is now an ad hominem for you.  Well as they say battling wits with an unarmed man is unfair so I'll stop herre. Congrats on revealling your talents and the lack therreof!

Oh yes Ayaan Hirst Ali the one who lied on her refugee application to the Netherlands and was therefore stripped of her parliamentary priviledges but was made the darling of American conservatives and given a spot at Georgetown where you would fit in if only you could string a coherent argument together!

Many US citizens disagree with US middle east policy.  Many of these same citiizens disagree with the prosecution of the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, as well as aid to Pakistan and massive financial industry bailouts.

The day you pay US taxes, feel free to comment.  

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/04/us/04bcactivists.html?ref=global-home

 http://www.tikkun.org/article.php/20110203081342931

Ali is indeed interesting, particularly given the fact that while she lied on her application to request Dutch citizenship, she later supported restrictive immigration policies in the Netherlands.  

"In May 2006 the television program Zembla reported that Hirsi Ali had given false information about her real name,[43] her age and the country she arrived from when originally applying for asylum. The program also presented evidence that she had been untruthful about the main reason for her asylum application, which she gave as a forced marriage. Hirsi Ali admitted that she had lied about her full name, her date of birth and the manner in which she had come to the Netherlands."  See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali  

This action would have normally precluded her from being granted residency in the United States except under a conservative US president.

Finally, alerting people to the WRS interview with Tariq Ramadan is in no way, shape, or form an endorsement of his views. 

Poor boy full of hate and lacking facts or references - totally unarmed and unprepared.  Keep practising - one day you might get something right.

@Karl Marxist which is why Sadat had on numerous occasions offered peace and was rejected by Israel just as the Palestinians are on every occasion.

You may get all of your wet dreams come true:-> Egypt demostrators calling for ousting Mubarak and the destruction of Israel.

. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWcKewmyh_o 

You would love Alan Dershowitz staunch supporter of Israel, Harvard law professor and plagiariser who said when the facts are with you argue the facts and when against you, throw mud.

Pitifully unarmed. Sarkozy and the State Department as authorities!  And the unidentified 'left crazies resemble the straw man argumentation method.  Well done.  Keep reinforcing your public image of intellectual poverty and rage.  We all get ya and can see through ya.

Many political ideologies need a belief system so that people will follow and subjugate themselves.  This was certainly true for Islam as it was for European 'civilisation' with their Christian creeds forbidding and crushing polytheistic groups in orderr to conquer, rule and pillage.  Cherry picking is also a well known and transparent intellectually poor way to advance an argument.  You are like Saddam Hussein disarmed of any weapons of mass destruction and consequently a victim of his own folly.  Good role model!

Oh yes Ayaan Hirst Ali the one who lied on her refugee application to the Netherlands and was therefore stripped of her parliamentary priviledges

Well not really (I am a Dutch citizen by the way),..., she wanted to be free instead of being married(property of) some muslim guy so she fled to the Netherlands (via Germany). A marxist doesnt understand PERSONAL freedom, only slavery ( in one form or another) to the collective.

Her situation brought down the Dutch government at that time as the minister of Integration (TON) was cought disclosing her true intentions.

She was the pet of the leftist Dutch political wing (member of the labor party) untill her consience gave way to speak out on womens rights and islam. Now she needs police protection 24x7. But I understand that despite her great sacrifice , a marxist like you would shit on a brave women like her.

The unidentified 'left crazies resemble the straw man argumentation method. 

Unidentified? ->Communual government of Rotterdam city (labor party)->Univiversity of Amsterdam, University of Utrecht, ..

...not really rightwing strongholds.

@Karl Marx: Pitifully unarmed. Sarkozy and the State Department as authorities!

So you have no problem with the tape recordings of Ramandam being caught saying its good gay people get the death sentence in iran? Cheers!

Coming close to some truth but still fullof vitriol.  Yes Fatah was unpopular and corrupt.  In such circumstances one has the choice not to vote or any other means to register discontent with for example Fatah. The fact that Hamas was elected in democratic elections with observers is an indication of some support. Strike one!

Obama and not your perjorative, is in many people's minds (my own included) worse than Bush in that he pursues Bush' foreign and domestic policies - the latter as far as habeas corpus, not prosecuting war criminals Bush and co., not closing Guantanamo as promised, reintituting war tribunals against his promise not to.  And he does that all with a smile and smooth rhetoric and with a keen intellect as a constitutional legal scholar.  Better the enemy you know.  Bush was as transparent as glass and didn't pretend like Obama to be anything but what he was.  Not a strike but a foul ball.

Childish mental masturbation.  That last foul ball was a second strike in fact and now strike three - yourrrrrrrrr out!  Back to the minor leagues!

Coming close to some truth but still fullof vitriol. 

Yeah, Oblowme was not the commie he promised everyone to be. Sucks doesnt it?

The fact that Hamas was elected in democratic elections with observers is an indication of some support.

Hitler was democraticly elected to, so whats your point?

And it took you all those days to come up with all that!  You must be exhausted.  Take a break and give us all one from your vacuous pathetic insulting heavy breathing.

@Karl Marx: Childish mental masturbation.  That last foul ball was a second strike in fact and now strike three - yourrrrrrrrr out!  Back to the minor leagues!

Well, when the babyboomer "intellectual" runs out of arguments , it turns nasty and personal. Facts cought on video (muslims ranting death to Israel) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWcKewmyh_o  does not let you sell the "religion of peace" does it?

Take a break and give us all one from your vacuous pathetic insulting heavy breathing.

I understand showing video evidence of muslims in egypt ,calling for the destruction of Isreal doesnt jive with your "ISlam is peace" lefty PC propaganda

Ben je echt een Nederlander,  Dat zou ik nooit geweten hebben!  So I am Canadian which makes me an expert and all knowledgeable about Canada and the comings and goings on there as your Dutch citizenship apparently allows you exclusivity and perfect insight on what went on in Nederland.  Het feit dat ik ook Nederland verstaan en spreek en het nieuws volgt in Holland maakt dat ik ook een idee heb over wat gebeurd is met Ali and van Gogh.

Again your intellectual poverty has already been readily demonstrated and we didn't need an encore.

As for Marxist, - in fact I'm a Groucho Marksist - not having read any Marx in my life I am not sure what that is but in your mind a terrible thing and therefore the repeat performance with ad hominems.  The audience is booing and asking you to leave the stage of the theatre of the absurd.

As for Ramadan, I said no such thing.  Objection your honour the prosecution is leading and intimidating the witness (because he like the emperor has no clothes).

I'll have a look but don't speak Arabic - perhaps you could translate.  And so a number out of 80 million utter such slander and hate (as is your wont) is all the evidence this court has to expect from you.  Your legal standards parallel Dershowitz's.

Ben je echt een Nederlander,  Dat zou ik nooit geweten hebben!

Yeah, funny how I cannot be a real Dutch guy because of my race. Typical argumentation of a PC white liberal with a race fettish. I was kindof waiting for it, you took your sweet time didnt you?

So I am Canadian which makes me an expert and all knowledgeable about Canada .

I lived in the Netherlands almost all my life,  what you do with Canada is your business.

Karl Marx: not having read any Marx in my life I am not sure what that is but in your mind a terrible thing and therefore the repeat performance with ad hominems.

Hey, communism killed over 100 million people in the 20th century, Lets give it another chance?

I'm not selling anything sunny boy. Grow up and I would advise you to stop exposing yourself for the person you are lacking any sense of rational logical argumentation.  Nuff said and no more fighting from this old fart  - I prefer that term thank you very much - with an unarmed boy.

@KarlMarx:I'll have a look but don't speak Arabic - perhaps you could translate.

Was a youtubed broadcast of Isrealy TV, so it must be a lie.....because  if it comes from "Israeli Zionist entity"

[lefty Israel hating mode off]

@KarlMarx: As for Ramadan, I said no such thing.

But calling everyone "a hater" who posts links Tariq threatening gay's with fysical harm (death sentence) is not a problem for you!

@Karl Marx: I'm not selling anything sunny boy.

Hey, If I would nickname myself "Adolf" instead of "Marxist" would that be ok too?

@Karl MArx: lacking any sense of rational logical argumentation.

Yeah, I can imagine a liberal with a race fettish can get himself in a tight spot when confronted with facts (youtube, links) and quotes of his favourite leftitst idols.

Muslims Attack Two Christian Families in Egypt, 11 Killed

http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=40230

...

You are funny! I feel like a cat playing with a mouse (that roared).  You can call yourself Adolph, Joseph, Idi or whatever, no one will be offended - and if the shoe fits, wear it.  In fact it might well suit you.  As for fetishes (where that comes from is beyond me but fits with the "wet dreams" sexual perversion witnessed earlier) for race, I am not convinced such a thing as race exists although I know the Nazis were keen on the idea.  Idols are for those religious zealots practising idolatry and not being religious I am not inclined to such practises.  Where in your fevered brain did you come up with that puerile thought? My medical experience is causing me some concern for your neurological comportment. Poor poor JacobBin.

Repugnant and unforgiveable behaviour of these individuals.

The article ends with: 

The Bishop denied any vendetta between the Copts and the Muslims. He called on the police to arrest the Islamist perpetrators immediately, as everyone knows they are the neighbors of the victims. He said "The massacre has nothing to do with the mayhem in Egypt, but the murderers took advantage of the lack of police protection and thought they could commit their crime and no one would notice."

Coptic activist Dr. Hanna Hanna views the Mubarak era with its policy of impunity to be the cause of why Copts are targeted. "Why have those Islamists chosen those two Coptic families and not Muslim ones to slaughter and rob? I believe it is because they know that with Copts they can literally get away with murder." Which illustrates that even under such extreme conditions there are voices of rationality and thus hope for a peaceful democratic resolution of the uprising in Egypt and for its future,

I said and asserted no such thing.  Delusions are a sign of schizophrenia as I recall from my medical training in psychiatry.  I'll check out the Zionist's broadcast - do they really identify themselves as Zionists or this delusion number two reinforcing my suspected diagnosis?

Karl Marx:You can call yourself Adolph, Joseph, Idi or whatever, 

These are all (national)socialists, so thats more up your alley!!.  I am not the one publicly defending Tariq (openly wants to execute gays) or taking a crap on the brave women Ayaan H Ali, who has more courage in her fingernail then in your whole body, or calling HAMAS  legitamate (like you) because they happen to be elected by a largely illiterate muslim population of the Westbank.

Karl Marx: As for fetishes [SNIP...leftist ranting]  for race, I am not convinced such a thing as race exists 

Lets look at your quote again: 

Ben je echt een Nederlander,  Dat zou ik nooit geweten hebben!

Translation: "Are you really a Dutch citizen? I would have never thought of it"

I have lived almost my whole life  in the Netherlands, and this is PC lefty code for, "your not Dutch coz you colored".

Delusion number three reducing the number of differntial diagnoses I have in mind.  For the non-Dutch speaking I said "Are you really Dutch"  I never would have known/guessed it" You also seem (in Dutch) to lack an ability to detect sarcasm - leading to further possible diagnoses of a neurological defect - where given the anti-Muslim sentiments circulating in Holland (and elsewhere) with such characters as Geert Wilders, anyone in his right mind would have picked up on and not attributed it to any racist sentiment.  Persecution complex!  Must try to resolve all  these symptoms and make a final diagnosis,  Any more symptoms you've been experiencing?

The Bishop denied any vendetta between the Copts and the Muslims.

Raped, forced conversions, lynching, abduction of Christian girls forcebly married to muslims,  of course the bishop must knows his place, ...or else....

Well you are Dutch and should know all about what goes on there and what every statement out of someone's mouth means or implies!  I learned my Dutch elsewhere but regardless, such language as I used can be logically tested for its sarcasm by a simple thought experiment by substituting 'Dutchman' for let's say 'a tennis player' of someone carrying a racket. It would clearly be interpreted by all as being a sarcastic jibe.  I have a good friend and colleague who is black as the ace of spades, lives in Amsterdam and is I'm damned sure Dutch.  I've had the pleasure of speaking Dutch with a Somali (no not Ali!).  And what colour has to do with nationality I have no idea.  Where do you get these ideas?  Do you hear voices? The answer would help me narrow down my differntial diagnosis to a definitive one allude to earlier.

I never said 'citizen' in Dutch (burger) and you know it. I implied nothing about the legitimacy of your citizenship and you know that too!

Well then if the Bishop is lying, logically we must disbelieve the whole story attributed to the Bishop.  But why under such threats would the Bishop make such false (?) claims?  Rather dangerous to do and contradicts your point.  Unable to see obvious contradictions in one's own conscious thought - the diagnosis is getting more difficult when I was sure I had it.

"Are you really Dutch"  I never would have known/guessed it"

Of course not, I am not supposed to call myself Dutch,... I break the lefty, happy clappy multiculti treehugging "contract" of  not seggregating myself or selling out for set asides, affirmative action or an easy "gobmunt" job.

And you hate it because you can show the world how much of a bleeding heart liberal you are.

--

But dont worry there are enough people who can be bought, so whats the going rate these days?  "for 40 silver pieces"?,....,  anyone in need of  a " translator" (pun, she is a forum poster LOOOL). ....