Are you seeking advice or just asking?

R.

It's just for discussion and exchange of views

No approach is foolproof. It's what happens along the way and how you deal with it that determines whether you have long term or momentary happiness

Hahaha .......how about we discuss this on one of our Poker nights after few bottles of wine ? 

I prefer the first. Life is too short.

So, life is too short, let's just marry and potentially ruin each others existence trying to 'make it work at all costs' (his words, not mine)?

To each their own I guess 

Ive tried both and neither worked so I dont know. Maybe marriage is just an outdated concept

I don't know if marriage has still a real meaning today, at least the meaning it had in the past, I just know that living together is the best way to get to know your companion (...) and that, if you don't put some efforts on your relationship, it will probably end within a few years.

I just have the feeling that people don't want to do those efforts today. At least those I heard about.

Well said Bertrand...completely agree...

My observation and experience, is they more or less give the same result ( limited sample test may have cultural bias). 

But the worst, bitter divorces are after the whirlwind, so the passion contibues

Best to have a prenup though.

ET

Irony.

Either approach can work... or not

The only fact that the relationship topic is a recurrent one shows how much the need of love makes us ONE as human beings...

NVC gives essential hints for the pursuit of love and happiness.

The Art of Loving by Erich Fromm is a very interesting book still very meaningful today. Here are a few quotes from it:

“Is love an art? Then it requires knowledge and effort.”

“Love is a decision, it is a judgment, it is a promise. If love were only a feeling, there would be no basis for the promise to love each other forever. A feeling comes and it may go. How can I judge that it will stay forever, when my act does not involve judgment and decision.

“Love isn't something natural. Rather it requires discipline, concentration, patience, faith, and the overcoming of narcissism. It isn't a feeling, it is a practice."

“Love is not primarily a relationship to a specific person; it is an attitude, an ordination of character which determines the relatedness of the person to the whole world as a whole, not toward one object of love"

“The main condition for the achievement of love is the overcoming of one's narcissism. The narcissistic orientation is one in which one experiences as real only that which exists within oneself, while the phenomena in the outside world have no reality in themselves, but are experienced only from the viewpoint of their being useful or dangerous to one. The opposite pole to narcissism is objectivity; it is the faculty to see other people and things as they are, objectively, and to be able to separate this objective picture from a picture which is formed by one's desires and fears.”

“Love means to commit oneself without guarantee, to give oneself completely in the hope that our love will produce love in the loved person. Love is an act of faith, and whoever is of little faith is also of little love.”

“If a person loves only one other person and is indifferent to all others, his love is not love but a symbiotic attachment, or an enlarged egotism.”

“Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence.”

“Modern man has transformed himself into a commodity; he experiences his life energy as an investment with which he should make the highest profit, considering his position and the situation on the personality market. He is alienated from himself, from his fellow men and from nature. His main aim is profitable exchange of his skills, knowledge, and of himself, his "personality package" with others who are equally intent on a fair and profitable exchange. Life has no goal except the one to move, no principle except the one of fair exchange, no satisfaction except the one to consume.p97.”

“Man’s main task is to give birth to himself. ”

My favorite quote izzy, is the one " if a person loves only one person,and is indifferent to others, his love is not love but a symbiotic attatchement, or an enlarged egotism"

this is true of a lot of relationships, where we become co-dependent on each other. The trick to a successful relationship, is to not attach your whole life to another, but to let them exist independently , and to let them be themselves :-)

www.soul-healing.ch

I totally agree with Izzie's quote of Erich Fromm's book 'The Art of Loving', it's a very good book, and it would be great if it could be put into practice...

Izzy

Those are really beautiful quotes and interesting books but I contend that love as the top reason to get married is completely overemphasized today at the expense of all other considerations. Considerations like character, values, and more importantly commonalities that are very important for more challenging phases of a lifelong committment...(children, job crises, elderly parents, etc....). Women in general would love if all men bought the premise that love is enough and should be the most important thing.  And it goes both ways. Women often do themselves a great disservice marrying for love and ignoring many other things. Of course it is also essential but sorry love in NOT enough.

Cheers

Peter

Wow Peter, you've certainly caught my attention, how interesting. I'd like some time to think about this though... let me reply to you tomorrow, I have a busy day today. I let others reply to this in the meantime

i think crosby stills nash and young said it best.

"if you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with"

Hi Izzie

Sounds good! Would love to hear your views. Btw, your quotes and references to love and actions/practice is spot on!

Chat later

Peter

Erich Fromm has obviously never been in love. However, as Peter says, love on it's own is not enough for a lasting relationship or marriage. There must be a common long-term goal and agreement on how to get there, as well as at least some common interests. There must also be passion, as that is the glue that binds the relationship.

Love is an all-encompassing emotion which provokes passion, delight, sorrow and heartache. The experience is both pain and pleasure and I for one would not forgo the intense pleasure for the sake of the possible heartbreak.I have that right now and I wouldn't sell it for all the biscuits in Britain, even if I could!

The big trouble is that love is fragile and can be ruined by over-indulgence or carelessness. This is where Fromm is dead right, love needs knowledge and care to ensure longevity.

Married or Divorced guys can definitely relate to this.

One reason not to marry )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAXSgssptc0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

"Women often do themselves a great disservice marrying for love and ignoring many other things. Of course it is also essential but sorry love in NOT enough"

of course, you also have to be rich and change the diapers ! what do you think ?

.

I once read this quote: you love the other because, in fact, you love the way he/she loves you. After pondering a while on it, I find it's pretty true.You like the way he/she looks at you. You like the way he/she talks to you or touches you. If you like the way he/she looks, talks and touches you, then you'll "fall in love". Shit happens when that person starts looking, talking and touching you differently, not like at the beginning. Then, things start going apart. So finally, love is a pretty narcissic and selfish feeling. It's like if it didn't depend on you but only on how the other person is doing things. Makes you wonder, doesn't it ?

Ansyways, we shouldn't do such a hoopla about love. It's nice, of course, and makes your stomach gurgle, and if you're lucky enough, you'll actually respect the other for who he/she is and make it last very long.

In any case, whether you tie love with a paper (marriage) or not is totally irrelevant. A relationship, is a relationship. As far as I'm concerned, entering in a relationship entails commitment (whatever form - to each his own). It's a moral contract. No need for a paper to know how to be respectful and have values !

Izzie,

Very clear and understandable! The main Thing on earth (to my understanding of life) is love, as you quote, not the narcissic love but the love of oneself and acceptation of ourselves as we are, with our background, experiences and upbringing.  It makes it so much easier to accept the others as they are ONCE we have made the acceptation of ourselves first.  Things seem to fall into place at that moment (being relationships, work, etc...)

So whats wrong with Marrying for Love ? 

What's the point in getting married ? It's just legal and makes it even more complicated when it ends. Let's just concentrate on having a simple relationhsip work with love and all the other things that are needed for it to last ! This alone is already a full time job !!! 

The point in getting married, is showing commitment to a partnership. Things onyl get complicated when you make them complicated, when one wont let go of what was never theirs. Marriage is about love not about owning the other, or belonging to another. If your already thinking about the end, before its begun, theres not much point in beginning really is there ? 

I guess that there is nothing strong with it.  As long as we do not get married to fill an empty space within us, or due to co-dependency... 

I still don't agree. Some people can commit to a partner for a long-term relationship without needing a paper. I'll replace your "the point of getting married" by "the point of entering into a relationship is showing commitment to a partner". 

Oh...I soooooooo agree with that ! 

For some people it's not just about a legal document, it's about having God, whichever God you believe in, witness you and a loved one becoming one. It is also a spiritual union for those who believe it is.

me too :)

enough said....

Hi Karl

There's nothing wrong with marrying for love. But only for love or mostly for love is more risky than most would like to admit. I can only speak for the US and some Western countries (but only generally) where I get the feeling that in many places, it is often overemphasized in popular culture as the most important thing above all else at the expense of other considerations. As long as love is there, everything will magically work itself out. Like in most all Hollywood romantic comedies. No, the real story begins after the guy or gal makes the dramatic decison that "we were meant to be together", after the final credits roll, the lights come and people leave the theater. And how much do you really know about the person you are marrying.... of course in the end there is always some leap of faith involved...but it should be a decently thought out leap and not a jump into the Grand Canyon...

Cheers, Peter

Hahah, No Charlie, tell us what you really think!

Come to think of it, Izzie, your question is un-aswerable. Whether you jump in the Canyon right away or wait 10 year to do so, one can never know EVERYTHING about one's partner. Even if and when you think you do. Living a long time with a person does help, of course, but it's no garantee to the success of a love-story. There can always be old secrets that can pop up 20 years later !  So, in any case, it's always a gamble ! 

Nathalie, do you mean my question at the top or which questions of Izzie's?

As the old saying goes, life is about the journey... :) 

Women marry man hoping to change them.

Man marry women hoping they won't change.

Neither happens.

That's my opinion too - just don't do it...

I don't believe in any god, so why would I get married?

Wow ! This means that all the folks that aren't married but do have a partner, don't actually love him/her, are in it just for the fun, the convenience, or are losing their time and are immature! That sure makes alot of baaaad people out there ! Boooh on us !!! 

You are emplying that love = marriage, and that if people don't get married, they don't love. I'm sorry but there are millions of people out there who love in all honesty and aren't married. 

we are all so different so there is no rules......everyone has to do their own experience.....married ir not just try to be happy and enjoy«Here and Now»as they say in Buddisme.....we live once and time pass so fast one day you wake up and its too late......

Ok ok you all are getting carried away here......Forget about love and forget about marraige lets just be real and listen to common sense.

You buy new clothes, tv, car and everything else because after a while it doesn't suit your needs or fits the situation,  same principle.....if you meet a man or women today ....it will be pure luck if your are going to be at the same point in life after 10 yrs. He / She might have gain or lost weight or have become cranky due to bitter experiences in life etc.. In short he/she will not be the same person u fell in love with or married......UPGRADE

A relationship over 30-40 many years is rare in this time....these only worked in past because women had no or less rights and were dependant on men plus people were living in small towns where everyone knew each other added social pressure, so people swallowed it. Now, women are free and can make choices ( a very good thing provides for variety :) ) and divorce is not necessarily seen as a failure, at least not by divorce lawyers. Switzerland has 50% divorce rate after the first kid.

So stop living in fantasy world and take life as it comes. Nothing you can do to change it. Chances of you meeting a life long partner are as high as winning a Euro millions so good luck :)

Marriage is nothing but a social excuse. Very little relevance in 2013.

probably it is crazy to invest in a marriage and/or a life-long relationship,

surely it is crazier never to be crazy and to stay rational if not disillusioned.

Take your chance ? 50% still do not divorce (and some might even be happy)

People marry for many reasons: legal, social, libidinal, financial, spiritual, cultural... In our Western society, marriage for love seems to have become a norm however it doesn't seem to give any further guarantee in terms of longevity.

Marriage of love or marriage of reason... both can fail.

In terms of longevity, people don't make a vow for 10 or 15 years anymore but 50 or 60 years since the progress of science has enabled us to live longer...

There seems to be no real incentive to matrimony anymore nowadays in our society. Men invented marriage to ensure their descendant was their own... This is not relevant anymore.

I like your question Peter. "Is love enough?"

Is love enough to make a good marriage or a good relationship (since a lot of people choose a contract-free union)?

Before answering this question, it may be interesting to look at the nature of love itself. Many thinkers have tempted to define it:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/love/

http://www.iep.utm.edu/love/

The Greeks distinguished 3 types of love: eros, philia and agape.

Love as eros is probably not enough as it is dependent of its object and can therefore alter in time although it is intense and beautiful.

Love as agape on the other hand includes a brotherly love for all humanity and a more spiritual love. It is an essential form of love made of compassion which we tend to forget about in our hectic, fast-paced and super-productive society. I believe this is what Fromm talks about when he says: “Love is not primarily a relationship to a specific person; it is an attitude, an ordination of character which determines the relatedness of the person to the whole world as a whole, not toward one object of love". This love can be developped (through NVC for instance).

Combining eros and agape brings more keys to success to a relationship.

However, there is never any guarantee. Seeking for guarantee is irrelevant since taking love for granted is counterproductive.

Cheers, have a fabulous weekend!

Well I guess its not about the approach but its about the person you meet. And then what you want out of your life.

It all depends upon how an individual defines words like Fun, Success, Happiness etc etc.For some guys it would be Fun to have -N- number of un-committed relations but some would be happy to have a loving wife and kids.

Also you should be satisfied with what you have as there is always a next level. 

So in short failure of marriage and divorce is due to the fact that women have the right to walk out? Interesting.

The moment the pastor says Now You are Husband and Wife is unique in a Life....full of emotions......even though most marriges doesnt work its worth to get married at least once....if you are thinking money then marry under the Separation de bien

A marriage doesn’t have to be conducted in a religious edifice to tug at the heart strings.  The commitment’s just as signficant and emotitional in a town hall, a registrar’s office, a 5-star hotel or over the smithy’s anvil nor do you need more than the statutory number of witnesses.

Young or not so young, whether it’s your first and perhaps only time or whether you’re one of those serial practitioner who can’t resist trying again (“for good, this time”), the legality of the  commitment will inevitably have its impact on your personal history.

R.

I did not understand your last sentence what did u mean?

NO, in short divorce rate has also risen because women today have more rights and can choose to split as oppose to before.

Not against their rigths and i think they still have less.

Nice try in twisting my words 

Ok, this is my approach of the marriage....

I have this desire since I'm a child.

My ceremony won't be in a church nor in front of some official people in a town Hall because it's not what's important for me.

It will be in a forest, in front of a big old Tree.

And I will say my words in front of my God and the Nature's spirits.

Because it is what is important for me.

Regarding "marriage and long term relationship", I think it is good to distinguish 3 levels :
1)    Level of attraction
2)    Level of compatibility
3)    Level of meaning

N°1 is related to the attractiveness shared by the couple,
N°2 is related to the style of life, style of language, ways of behaving, the respect due to each other,
N°3 is related to the deep values you share and how you want to develop them. Is the direction you are heading to with your partner meaningful to each and both of you ? It takes time to answer such a question and to know oneself in the deep.

In all cases, you may have to go behind your limits and the horizon you see at the moment. Are you ready to deepen the seed of your values, to water them, to overcome your limits, to face the unknow and to stick to a flourishing goal ?

That's good, because in all cases, by yourself or with your partner, you will have to make it, won't you ?

The approach to marriage (or to not get married) is personal. We can not make rules, we can have though some statistics. It also depends very much of each person/nation cultural background. Definitely we don`t see the marriage in the same way as nationalities who still practice arranged marriages, for example

 The marriage or long relationship is not a uninterrupted bliss. It has good times and bad times, it has difficulties and decisions to be taken. You can ever be sure on it  because is not something that is depending only of yourself. That`s why it demands faith, courage and maybe a bit of craziness  If they are some many people failling today`s relationships is because we want very fast to be loved, to be happy, we are so focuse on receiving and not on WORKING to make it strong. I like very much the comparison betrween building a strong relationship with the way ancient constructors built the old cathedrals. They built them in years (not over night), with a strong foundation (common human values), with each stone carrefouly polished (working on adjusting, improoving ourself) and only after decorated (passion, love in the meaning of today). I don`t say however that the passion is not important, it`s just not last forever. A relationship based only on phisical attraction and passion will not last too long, or at least not in a wholesome meaning.

In my oppinion, for the God believers, the marriage realy has a deep sense. You become just ONE with the person you love. And what crazy will harm himself? Starting from this point of view, you will cherish the person next to you as yourself, you`ll be faithful, respectful, loyal, friend, lover, all...Only by giving all you can receive all. Ofcourse you can also lose all, it`s depending on everyone of us if we take or not the risk.

For nonbelievers...probably the things are different, most probably the marriage doesn`t have the same sense. Probably is not deserving nowadays to do a marriage just as a social duty. You can live as good/bad in a free partnership.

At the end Peter, I would prefer the second option, to get to know the person well before to make a marriage. And here you are right, the love is not enough by herself for a good relation, is has come along with common values, life perspective and life style.

Marriage not need any approach, when you will be satisfied go for it otherwise find some other soul mate.