I moved here four years ago. I work up the hill from the U.N. and every day, I go by the place des Nations. When I first moved here, it was a grassy field with a big broken chair and protesters. There were no fountains, no tram lines, no snazzy bus stops.
About three years ago, they took the chair away and started mucking about. I've heard different amounts for the cost of this endeavour. The canton built tram lines, paved over the muddy/grassy field, moved the protesters to near UNHCR and the side of Place des Nations at the number 8 bus stop, re-routed traffic and bus lines, built bus shelters, brought back the chair and installed fountains.
The day that they brought the Chair back, I nearly applauded from the bus. To me, the Chair is a symbol of all the good works that happen in the world because of the work people (whether at the U.N., NGOs, charities, etc...) do in Geneva.
So, why is this a soapbox post? Because the fountains drive me nuts. DRIVE ME NUTS!!!! The choreographed water shows are beautiful, don't get me wrong. But the water doesn't fall back into a pool of water, it falls on marble where it evaporates so quickly. (I'm sure there are scientists who can tell me I'm wrong and that this is better than a pool of water; please do). Yes, there are drains, but the majority of the water doesn't return to the system. For me, it seems a bit of a spit in the eye to people in Geneva working towards clean, accessible and potable water for the millions (billions?) of people for whom this is a critical issue.
In so many parts of the world, women (because it's always the women [and children]) walk miles each day to get water. Not necessarily clean water, any water. I don't have statistics or facts, this is not my field of expertise, but in a world where we can't afford to be unaware of the needs of others no matter how far away they are, at a time when people worry about their "carbon footprint", shouldn't we be striving to set an example in our public areas as well in our private lives?
The water displays are beautiful, and I appreciate beautiful space in urban areas. I think this is one of Geneva's strongpoints. It's just when I go by the fountains and they're turned on, it seems so extravagant.
Does anyone know what the running costs of the project are? Or what it cost to set up?
I would really love to have more info about it. SO, am I over-reacting? Blowing it out of proportion or spot-on?
Global Forums > General > dusting off the soapbox
Only members can see names and photos
dusting off the soapbox
May 1, 2007 @ 11:15
The text you are quoting:
I moved here four years ago. I work up the hill from the U.N. and every day, I go by the place des Nations. When I first moved here, it was a grassy field with a big broken chair and protesters. There were no fountains, no tram lines, no snazzy bus stops.
About three years ago, they took the chair away and started mucking about. I've heard different amounts for the cost of this endeavour. The canton built tram lines, paved over the muddy/grassy field, moved the protesters to near UNHCR and the side of Place des Nations at the number 8 bus stop, re-routed traffic and bus lines, built bus shelters, brought back the chair and installed fountains.
The day that they brought the Chair back, I nearly applauded from the bus. To me, the Chair is a symbol of all the good works that happen in the world because of the work people (whether at the U.N., NGOs, charities, etc...) do in Geneva.
So, why is this a soapbox post? Because the fountains drive me nuts. DRIVE ME NUTS!!!! The choreographed water shows are beautiful, don't get me wrong. But the water doesn't fall back into a pool of water, it falls on marble where it evaporates so quickly. (I'm sure there are scientists who can tell me I'm wrong and that this is better than a pool of water; please do). Yes, there are drains, but the majority of the water doesn't return to the system. For me, it seems a bit of a spit in the eye to people in Geneva working towards clean, accessible and potable water for the millions (billions?) of people for whom this is a critical issue.
In so many parts of the world, women (because it's always the women [and children]) walk miles each day to get water. Not necessarily clean water, any water. I don't have statistics or facts, this is not my field of expertise, but in a world where we can't afford to be unaware of the needs of others no matter how far away they are, at a time when people worry about their "carbon footprint", shouldn't we be striving to set an example in our public areas as well in our private lives?
The water displays are beautiful, and I appreciate beautiful space in urban areas. I think this is one of Geneva's strongpoints. It's just when I go by the fountains and they're turned on, it seems so extravagant.
Does anyone know what the running costs of the project are? Or what it cost to set up?
I would really love to have more info about it. SO, am I over-reacting? Blowing it out of proportion or spot-on?
misskateMay 1, 2007 @ 11:15
About three years ago, they took the chair away and started mucking about. I've heard different amounts for the cost of this endeavour. The canton built tram lines, paved over the muddy/grassy field, moved the protesters to near UNHCR and the side of Place des Nations at the number 8 bus stop, re-routed traffic and bus lines, built bus shelters, brought back the chair and installed fountains.
The day that they brought the Chair back, I nearly applauded from the bus. To me, the Chair is a symbol of all the good works that happen in the world because of the work people (whether at the U.N., NGOs, charities, etc...) do in Geneva.
So, why is this a soapbox post? Because the fountains drive me nuts. DRIVE ME NUTS!!!! The choreographed water shows are beautiful, don't get me wrong. But the water doesn't fall back into a pool of water, it falls on marble where it evaporates so quickly. (I'm sure there are scientists who can tell me I'm wrong and that this is better than a pool of water; please do). Yes, there are drains, but the majority of the water doesn't return to the system. For me, it seems a bit of a spit in the eye to people in Geneva working towards clean, accessible and potable water for the millions (billions?) of people for whom this is a critical issue.
In so many parts of the world, women (because it's always the women [and children]) walk miles each day to get water. Not necessarily clean water, any water. I don't have statistics or facts, this is not my field of expertise, but in a world where we can't afford to be unaware of the needs of others no matter how far away they are, at a time when people worry about their "carbon footprint", shouldn't we be striving to set an example in our public areas as well in our private lives?
The water displays are beautiful, and I appreciate beautiful space in urban areas. I think this is one of Geneva's strongpoints. It's just when I go by the fountains and they're turned on, it seems so extravagant.
Does anyone know what the running costs of the project are? Or what it cost to set up?
I would really love to have more info about it. SO, am I over-reacting? Blowing it out of proportion or spot-on?
misskateMay 1, 2007 @ 11:15
Your Reply:
Only members can see names and photos
Re: dusting off the soapbox
Post 1
May 1, 2007 @ 12:19
http://www.ville-ge.ch/geneve/amenagement/nation/nation2/pdf/presse%20nations.pdf
"Budget
Cr?dit d'?tude 743 000 francs
Cr?dit de construction 16 768 000 francs"
You'll also find on this document some more answers:
"Le centre de la place se pr?sente sous la forme d’une esplanade min?rale, agr?ment?e de
jeux d'eau, et qui r?serve un large emplacement pour la tenue des manifestations et rassemblements. Le sol se compose d’une alternance de granits,dont les couleurs reproduisent le spectre de l’arc-en-ciel et qui symbolisent la diversit? des nations. Des
bandes de b?ton, mat?riau traditionnel en Ville de Gen?ve, s’intercalent entre les bandes de granit.
La fontaine a ?t? con?ue sp?cialement pour la place des Nations, dans le cadre du projet
d’am?nagement. Elle fonctionne selon le principe des « fontaines s?ches », ? savoir que
l’eau jaillit directement du sol et ne s’?coule pas dans un bassin, mais est recueillie par des grilles au sol, puis r?cup?r?e. L’ensemble des commandes de la fontaine est g?r? par ordinateur, permettant de varier la hauteur des 7 rang?es de 12 jets pour former des figures."
Translation: water doesn't flow in a bassin but is collected through grids and recycled.
"Budget
Cr?dit d'?tude 743 000 francs
Cr?dit de construction 16 768 000 francs"
You'll also find on this document some more answers:
"Le centre de la place se pr?sente sous la forme d’une esplanade min?rale, agr?ment?e de
jeux d'eau, et qui r?serve un large emplacement pour la tenue des manifestations et rassemblements. Le sol se compose d’une alternance de granits,dont les couleurs reproduisent le spectre de l’arc-en-ciel et qui symbolisent la diversit? des nations. Des
bandes de b?ton, mat?riau traditionnel en Ville de Gen?ve, s’intercalent entre les bandes de granit.
La fontaine a ?t? con?ue sp?cialement pour la place des Nations, dans le cadre du projet
d’am?nagement. Elle fonctionne selon le principe des « fontaines s?ches », ? savoir que
l’eau jaillit directement du sol et ne s’?coule pas dans un bassin, mais est recueillie par des grilles au sol, puis r?cup?r?e. L’ensemble des commandes de la fontaine est g?r? par ordinateur, permettant de varier la hauteur des 7 rang?es de 12 jets pour former des figures."
Translation: water doesn't flow in a bassin but is collected through grids and recycled.
The text you are quoting:
http://www.ville-ge.ch/geneve/amenagement/nation/nation2/pdf/presse%20nations.pdf
"Budget
Cr?dit d'?tude 743 000 francs
Cr?dit de construction 16 768 000 francs"
You'll also find on this document some more answers:
"Le centre de la place se pr?sente sous la forme d’une esplanade min?rale, agr?ment?e de
jeux d'eau, et qui r?serve un large emplacement pour la tenue des manifestations et rassemblements. Le sol se compose d’une alternance de granits,dont les couleurs reproduisent le spectre de l’arc-en-ciel et qui symbolisent la diversit? des nations. Des
bandes de b?ton, mat?riau traditionnel en Ville de Gen?ve, s’intercalent entre les bandes de granit.
La fontaine a ?t? con?ue sp?cialement pour la place des Nations, dans le cadre du projet
d’am?nagement. Elle fonctionne selon le principe des « fontaines s?ches », ? savoir que
l’eau jaillit directement du sol et ne s’?coule pas dans un bassin, mais est recueillie par des grilles au sol, puis r?cup?r?e. L’ensemble des commandes de la fontaine est g?r? par ordinateur, permettant de varier la hauteur des 7 rang?es de 12 jets pour former des figures."
Translation: water doesn't flow in a bassin but is collected through grids and recycled.
Hobbes, May 1, 2007 @ 12:19
"Budget
Cr?dit d'?tude 743 000 francs
Cr?dit de construction 16 768 000 francs"
You'll also find on this document some more answers:
"Le centre de la place se pr?sente sous la forme d’une esplanade min?rale, agr?ment?e de
jeux d'eau, et qui r?serve un large emplacement pour la tenue des manifestations et rassemblements. Le sol se compose d’une alternance de granits,dont les couleurs reproduisent le spectre de l’arc-en-ciel et qui symbolisent la diversit? des nations. Des
bandes de b?ton, mat?riau traditionnel en Ville de Gen?ve, s’intercalent entre les bandes de granit.
La fontaine a ?t? con?ue sp?cialement pour la place des Nations, dans le cadre du projet
d’am?nagement. Elle fonctionne selon le principe des « fontaines s?ches », ? savoir que
l’eau jaillit directement du sol et ne s’?coule pas dans un bassin, mais est recueillie par des grilles au sol, puis r?cup?r?e. L’ensemble des commandes de la fontaine est g?r? par ordinateur, permettant de varier la hauteur des 7 rang?es de 12 jets pour former des figures."
Translation: water doesn't flow in a bassin but is collected through grids and recycled.
Hobbes, May 1, 2007 @ 12:19
Your Reply:
Only members can see names and photos
Re: dusting off the soapbox
Post 2
May 1, 2007 @ 12:25
http://www.unspecial.org/UNS632/UNS_632_T28.html
"Cette installation, dans un souci d’economiser l’eau, est concue en circuit ferme avec de l’eau de pluie."
Next time, Google it before getting mad for no reason ;-)
"Cette installation, dans un souci d’economiser l’eau, est concue en circuit ferme avec de l’eau de pluie."
Next time, Google it before getting mad for no reason ;-)
The text you are quoting:
http://www.unspecial.org/UNS632/UNS_632_T28.html
"Cette installation, dans un souci d’economiser l’eau, est concue en circuit ferme avec de l’eau de pluie."
Next time, Google it before getting mad for no reason ;-)
Hobbes, May 1, 2007 @ 12:25
"Cette installation, dans un souci d’economiser l’eau, est concue en circuit ferme avec de l’eau de pluie."
Next time, Google it before getting mad for no reason ;-)
Hobbes, May 1, 2007 @ 12:25
Your Reply:
Only members can see names and photos
Re: dusting off the soapbox
Post 3
May 1, 2007 @ 14:31
I had noted that the water used was not potable, but if you go take a look at it, tell me how much water you really think is being re-circulated.
I appreciate the further information, Hobbes. I still think that for all the loveliness, it is a cavalier use of a precious commodity.
I appreciate the further information, Hobbes. I still think that for all the loveliness, it is a cavalier use of a precious commodity.
The text you are quoting:
I had noted that the water used was not potable, but if you go take a look at it, tell me how much water you really think is being re-circulated.
I appreciate the further information, Hobbes. I still think that for all the loveliness, it is a cavalier use of a precious commodity.
misskate, May 1, 2007 @ 14:31
I appreciate the further information, Hobbes. I still think that for all the loveliness, it is a cavalier use of a precious commodity.
misskate, May 1, 2007 @ 14:31
Your Reply:
Only members can see names and photos
Re: dusting off the soapbox
Post 4
May 2, 2007 @ 13:59
is hence supposed to be better use of tax money than constructing a nice, beautiful fountain which uses recycled rain water and where lots of people enjoy playing around on a hot day - creating a nice athmosph?re to the area which before was real ugly! I would guess that the cost mentioned above is not only the cost of the fountain but rather the cost of the whole new area....
some graffiti is lovely and make some ugly gray walls supportable....
sorry if I can't see why these fountains using rain water that will be recycled afterwards would have an influence on the water accessibility in countries in need? whatever amount of water not recuperated by the draining system under the fountain will probably just run into the surrounding areas in the same way that rain water comes down everywhere and is then filtered by the ground, what's the problem if the rain water is first used once more to display a beautiful fountain before being filtered by the ground?
sorry don't get the problem - though i am very pleased to see the chair back in it's right place as it is a great symbole for a field which is important to me, namely the abolition of anti-personal landmines.
my 2 cents, helena
some graffiti is lovely and make some ugly gray walls supportable....
sorry if I can't see why these fountains using rain water that will be recycled afterwards would have an influence on the water accessibility in countries in need? whatever amount of water not recuperated by the draining system under the fountain will probably just run into the surrounding areas in the same way that rain water comes down everywhere and is then filtered by the ground, what's the problem if the rain water is first used once more to display a beautiful fountain before being filtered by the ground?
sorry don't get the problem - though i am very pleased to see the chair back in it's right place as it is a great symbole for a field which is important to me, namely the abolition of anti-personal landmines.
my 2 cents, helena
The text you are quoting:
is hence supposed to be better use of tax money than constructing a nice, beautiful fountain which uses recycled rain water and where lots of people enjoy playing around on a hot day - creating a nice athmosph?re to the area which before was real ugly! I would guess that the cost mentioned above is not only the cost of the fountain but rather the cost of the whole new area....
some graffiti is lovely and make some ugly gray walls supportable....
sorry if I can't see why these fountains using rain water that will be recycled afterwards would have an influence on the water accessibility in countries in need? whatever amount of water not recuperated by the draining system under the fountain will probably just run into the surrounding areas in the same way that rain water comes down everywhere and is then filtered by the ground, what's the problem if the rain water is first used once more to display a beautiful fountain before being filtered by the ground?
sorry don't get the problem - though i am very pleased to see the chair back in it's right place as it is a great symbole for a field which is important to me, namely the abolition of anti-personal landmines.
my 2 cents, helena
LNA__, May 2, 2007 @ 13:59
some graffiti is lovely and make some ugly gray walls supportable....
sorry if I can't see why these fountains using rain water that will be recycled afterwards would have an influence on the water accessibility in countries in need? whatever amount of water not recuperated by the draining system under the fountain will probably just run into the surrounding areas in the same way that rain water comes down everywhere and is then filtered by the ground, what's the problem if the rain water is first used once more to display a beautiful fountain before being filtered by the ground?
sorry don't get the problem - though i am very pleased to see the chair back in it's right place as it is a great symbole for a field which is important to me, namely the abolition of anti-personal landmines.
my 2 cents, helena
LNA__, May 2, 2007 @ 13:59
Your Reply:
Only members can see names and photos
Re: dusting off the soapbox
Post 5
May 2, 2007 @ 14:32
Yes, the inequalities between developed countries and undeveloped ones are shocking.
Yes, flushing my toilets felt really strange for some time when I came back from desertic countries
Yes, the amount of money spent by governments on some non essential projects is shocking
BUT...
I don't think making a city comfortable to live in is bad per se, as long as every citizen life support needs are fulfilled
Geneva holds the UN and many NGOs headquarters. Dedicating a park to human rights and making it visually attractive yet users and environmentally friendly makes sense to me. Should we settle a refugees' camp, an artificial desert, a malaria infected swamp or even a war field in front of the UN just to remind pedestrians how horrible the world can be? Should we feel guilty everyday for being born in luckier countries? Would it help less lucky ones? Be more respectful? I do prefer Geneva setting higher standards and visions, as long as those visions don't lower what is done to help the people in need.
Furthermore, if an answer to water shortage is to be found, the solution lies at least as much in customers’ hands than governments ones. If you want to change the world, change yourself first. Buy local, biological, seasonal and fair trade products with few and ecological packaging. Walk, use your bicycle or public transportation instead of your car. Refrain yourself from flying. Recycle, avoid any waste, don’t air condition, don’t heat higher than 19C, switch off all unused electric devices, use low energy light bulbs, choose green electricity, etc. This does requires more efforts and patience than arguing about a water fountain, but is far more effective I believe.
Yes, flushing my toilets felt really strange for some time when I came back from desertic countries
Yes, the amount of money spent by governments on some non essential projects is shocking
BUT...
I don't think making a city comfortable to live in is bad per se, as long as every citizen life support needs are fulfilled
Geneva holds the UN and many NGOs headquarters. Dedicating a park to human rights and making it visually attractive yet users and environmentally friendly makes sense to me. Should we settle a refugees' camp, an artificial desert, a malaria infected swamp or even a war field in front of the UN just to remind pedestrians how horrible the world can be? Should we feel guilty everyday for being born in luckier countries? Would it help less lucky ones? Be more respectful? I do prefer Geneva setting higher standards and visions, as long as those visions don't lower what is done to help the people in need.
Furthermore, if an answer to water shortage is to be found, the solution lies at least as much in customers’ hands than governments ones. If you want to change the world, change yourself first. Buy local, biological, seasonal and fair trade products with few and ecological packaging. Walk, use your bicycle or public transportation instead of your car. Refrain yourself from flying. Recycle, avoid any waste, don’t air condition, don’t heat higher than 19C, switch off all unused electric devices, use low energy light bulbs, choose green electricity, etc. This does requires more efforts and patience than arguing about a water fountain, but is far more effective I believe.
The text you are quoting:
Yes, the inequalities between developed countries and undeveloped ones are shocking.
Yes, flushing my toilets felt really strange for some time when I came back from desertic countries
Yes, the amount of money spent by governments on some non essential projects is shocking
BUT...
I don't think making a city comfortable to live in is bad per se, as long as every citizen life support needs are fulfilled
Geneva holds the UN and many NGOs headquarters. Dedicating a park to human rights and making it visually attractive yet users and environmentally friendly makes sense to me. Should we settle a refugees' camp, an artificial desert, a malaria infected swamp or even a war field in front of the UN just to remind pedestrians how horrible the world can be? Should we feel guilty everyday for being born in luckier countries? Would it help less lucky ones? Be more respectful? I do prefer Geneva setting higher standards and visions, as long as those visions don't lower what is done to help the people in need.
Furthermore, if an answer to water shortage is to be found, the solution lies at least as much in customers’ hands than governments ones. If you want to change the world, change yourself first. Buy local, biological, seasonal and fair trade products with few and ecological packaging. Walk, use your bicycle or public transportation instead of your car. Refrain yourself from flying. Recycle, avoid any waste, don’t air condition, don’t heat higher than 19C, switch off all unused electric devices, use low energy light bulbs, choose green electricity, etc. This does requires more efforts and patience than arguing about a water fountain, but is far more effective I believe.
Hobbes, May 2, 2007 @ 14:32
Yes, flushing my toilets felt really strange for some time when I came back from desertic countries
Yes, the amount of money spent by governments on some non essential projects is shocking
BUT...
I don't think making a city comfortable to live in is bad per se, as long as every citizen life support needs are fulfilled
Geneva holds the UN and many NGOs headquarters. Dedicating a park to human rights and making it visually attractive yet users and environmentally friendly makes sense to me. Should we settle a refugees' camp, an artificial desert, a malaria infected swamp or even a war field in front of the UN just to remind pedestrians how horrible the world can be? Should we feel guilty everyday for being born in luckier countries? Would it help less lucky ones? Be more respectful? I do prefer Geneva setting higher standards and visions, as long as those visions don't lower what is done to help the people in need.
Furthermore, if an answer to water shortage is to be found, the solution lies at least as much in customers’ hands than governments ones. If you want to change the world, change yourself first. Buy local, biological, seasonal and fair trade products with few and ecological packaging. Walk, use your bicycle or public transportation instead of your car. Refrain yourself from flying. Recycle, avoid any waste, don’t air condition, don’t heat higher than 19C, switch off all unused electric devices, use low energy light bulbs, choose green electricity, etc. This does requires more efforts and patience than arguing about a water fountain, but is far more effective I believe.
Hobbes, May 2, 2007 @ 14:32
Your Reply:
Only members can see names and photos
Re: dusting off the soapbox
Post 6
May 2, 2007 @ 17:18
i know its supposed to be symbolic and all, but i first saw that chair when i was 13, and thought it was real ugly.
then a few years later i found out why one of the legs was missing, and although everyone in geneva seems to oooh and aaah over the broken chair, and what it symbolizes, i still think its really ugly.
then many internships later, i really thought it was time for a change.
so i actually like the fountains, despite the use of water. much better than the three tufts of grass that would occasionaly sprout in the spring, and then dry out end august.
then a few years later i found out why one of the legs was missing, and although everyone in geneva seems to oooh and aaah over the broken chair, and what it symbolizes, i still think its really ugly.
then many internships later, i really thought it was time for a change.
so i actually like the fountains, despite the use of water. much better than the three tufts of grass that would occasionaly sprout in the spring, and then dry out end august.
The text you are quoting:
i know its supposed to be symbolic and all, but i first saw that chair when i was 13, and thought it was real ugly.
then a few years later i found out why one of the legs was missing, and although everyone in geneva seems to oooh and aaah over the broken chair, and what it symbolizes, i still think its really ugly.
then many internships later, i really thought it was time for a change.
so i actually like the fountains, despite the use of water. much better than the three tufts of grass that would occasionaly sprout in the spring, and then dry out end august.
SweetSwede, May 2, 2007 @ 17:18
then a few years later i found out why one of the legs was missing, and although everyone in geneva seems to oooh and aaah over the broken chair, and what it symbolizes, i still think its really ugly.
then many internships later, i really thought it was time for a change.
so i actually like the fountains, despite the use of water. much better than the three tufts of grass that would occasionaly sprout in the spring, and then dry out end august.
SweetSwede, May 2, 2007 @ 17:18
Your Reply:
Only members can see names and photos
Re: dusting off the soapbox
Post 7
May 2, 2007 @ 17:33
And all the costs for Place des Nations redesign have been paid by the local government. So, the UN didn't "waist" any money for that.
Some more info about Broken Chair past and future here: http://www.ville-ge.ch/geneve/amenagement/nation/nation2/pdf/broken-chair.pdf
Some more info about Broken Chair past and future here: http://www.ville-ge.ch/geneve/amenagement/nation/nation2/pdf/broken-chair.pdf
The text you are quoting:
And all the costs for Place des Nations redesign have been paid by the local government. So, the UN didn't "waist" any money for that.
Some more info about Broken Chair past and future here: http://www.ville-ge.ch/geneve/amenagement/nation/nation2/pdf/broken-chair.pdf
Hobbes, May 2, 2007 @ 17:33
Some more info about Broken Chair past and future here: http://www.ville-ge.ch/geneve/amenagement/nation/nation2/pdf/broken-chair.pdf
Hobbes, May 2, 2007 @ 17:33
Your Reply:
Only members can see names and photos
Re: dusting off the soapbox
Post 8
May 2, 2007 @ 17:37
and amuse himself by applying it, triumphantly, wherever he travels"
Henry Brooks Adams
And as a French say goes "Il n'y a que les imbeciles qui ne changent pas d'avis"... give yourself some more time ! ;-P
Henry Brooks Adams
And as a French say goes "Il n'y a que les imbeciles qui ne changent pas d'avis"... give yourself some more time ! ;-P
The text you are quoting:
and amuse himself by applying it, triumphantly, wherever he travels"
Henry Brooks Adams
And as a French say goes "Il n'y a que les imbeciles qui ne changent pas d'avis"... give yourself some more time ! ;-P
Hobbes, May 2, 2007 @ 17:37
Henry Brooks Adams
And as a French say goes "Il n'y a que les imbeciles qui ne changent pas d'avis"... give yourself some more time ! ;-P
Hobbes, May 2, 2007 @ 17:37
Your Reply:
Only members can see names and photos
Re: dusting off the soapbox
Post 9
May 2, 2007 @ 17:45
... since i saw that chair for the first time.
lol , apparently i am slow to change my mind... or just stuck to my own convictions ;)
lol , apparently i am slow to change my mind... or just stuck to my own convictions ;)
The text you are quoting:
... since i saw that chair for the first time.
lol , apparently i am slow to change my mind... or just stuck to my own convictions ;)
SweetSwede, May 2, 2007 @ 17:45
lol , apparently i am slow to change my mind... or just stuck to my own convictions ;)
SweetSwede, May 2, 2007 @ 17:45
Your Reply:
Only members can see names and photos
Re: dusting off the soapbox
Post 10
May 2, 2007 @ 17:58
Or to a life's length when your leg has been blasted away by a mine while you where playing in the grass at age 5 ? :-S
The text you are quoting:
Or to a life's length when your leg has been blasted away by a mine while you where playing in the grass at age 5 ? :-S
Hobbes, May 2, 2007 @ 17:58
Hobbes, May 2, 2007 @ 17:58
Your Reply:
