I just heard a Swiss policeman on World Radio Switzerland say that ”the reason why the crime rate in Switzerland isn’t reflected in the media is that crimes are usually commit by people from North Africa and the Balcans and reporting this in the media could fuel right wing extremism”!
When the show host reminded him that the ratio between Swiss and foreign prisoners in Swiss jails is actually 51/49, he explained that this is because this ratio doesn’t say anything about the nature of the crime, and the Swiss prisoners have generally commit less serious crimes, and that “if a Swiss person were to try and break into a house he wouldn’t know what to do (!)”.
Do these statements seem a bit provoking and rasist to anyone else than me?!
Global Forums > General > rasist policeman on WRS
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rasist policeman on WRS
Nov 12, 2008 @ 11:08
The text you are quoting:
I just heard a Swiss policeman on World Radio Switzerland say that ”the reason why the crime rate in Switzerland isn’t reflected in the media is that crimes are usually commit by people from North Africa and the Balcans and reporting this in the media could fuel right wing extremism”!
When the show host reminded him that the ratio between Swiss and foreign prisoners in Swiss jails is actually 51/49, he explained that this is because this ratio doesn’t say anything about the nature of the crime, and the Swiss prisoners have generally commit less serious crimes, and that “if a Swiss person were to try and break into a house he wouldn’t know what to do (!)”.
Do these statements seem a bit provoking and rasist to anyone else than me?!
charlottaNov 12, 2008 @ 11:08
When the show host reminded him that the ratio between Swiss and foreign prisoners in Swiss jails is actually 51/49, he explained that this is because this ratio doesn’t say anything about the nature of the crime, and the Swiss prisoners have generally commit less serious crimes, and that “if a Swiss person were to try and break into a house he wouldn’t know what to do (!)”.
Do these statements seem a bit provoking and rasist to anyone else than me?!
charlottaNov 12, 2008 @ 11:08
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Re: rasist policeman on WRS
Post 1
Nov 12, 2008 @ 12:03
Wow! He really seems to be extremely racist and ill-informed. Makes me wonder about the cops I see on the roads now.
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Wow! He really seems to be extremely racist and ill-informed. Makes me wonder about the cops I see on the roads now.
Jawahara, Nov 12, 2008 @ 12:03
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Re: rasist policeman on WRS
Post 2
Nov 12, 2008 @ 12:48
There are indubitably more crimes committed by people coming from the Balkans in Switzerland than say... Japanese people. There are also more cops originating from the Balkans than Japanese ones in CH...
The text you are quoting:
There are indubitably more crimes committed by people coming from the Balkans in Switzerland than say... Japanese people. There are also more cops originating from the Balkans than Japanese ones in CH...
Casuistik, Nov 12, 2008 @ 12:48
Casuistik, Nov 12, 2008 @ 12:48
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Re: rasist policeman on WRS
Post 3
Nov 12, 2008 @ 12:57
Maybe he is not racist, and is speaking from personal experience. It is possible to see his point of view when in Switzerland you can be jailed for not paying your parking and speeding fines, or not paying your car insurance. So maybe the ratio does not reflect the true natures of the crimes committed.
Or
Maybe he is racist, we can't tell, everybody has an opinion that may differ to someone else based on their experience of the subject.
The text you are quoting:
Maybe he is not racist, and is speaking from personal experience. It is possible to see his point of view when in Switzerland you can be jailed for not paying your parking and speeding fines, or not paying your car insurance. So maybe the ratio does not reflect the true natures of the crimes committed.
Or
Maybe he is racist, we can't tell, everybody has an opinion that may differ to someone else based on their experience of the subject.
DJ_Symcard, Nov 12, 2008 @ 12:57
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Re: rasist policeman on WRS
Post 4
Nov 12, 2008 @ 13:20
Oooh, action on the General forum. Excellent.
[quote][b]
charlotta (12/11/2008)[/b]
I just heard a Swiss policeman on World Radio Switzerland say that ”the reason why the crime rate in Switzerland isn’t reflected in the media is that crimes are usually commit by people from North Africa and the Balcans and reporting this in the media could fuel right wing extremism”!
[/quote]
I'd say the piggy they interviewed was just a little thick. Sure, he could have been racist as well, but certainly thick. Thick in that he explicitly cited examples. He's correct, though, isn't he, to some extent: I've never actually seen the numbers of crimes committed by immigrants from various countries vs. the indigenous or Nth generation naturalised population. Presumably for precisely the reason he states: because there would be mega backlash in society.
As I understand things, for most countries in the EU (I.e. not including CH): people entering the country through immigration do commit more violent crime in particular, and crime-in-total, than those that haven't. Normalised by the fraction of society they represent. I kind of thought that was common knowledge, although it's true, we don't talk about it much, outside the populist right-wing press. The problem is that that the data is mis-represented by the media and open to the standard mis-interpretation by the idiot public: that people that come from funny countries are natural born criminals. When in fact the correlation implies nothing, and is more likely to stem from the governments' failures to integrate the people that come in, even on timescales longer than a generation.
With that in mind, I can't really fathom the 51/49 statistic. If it's a raw ratio then the interviewer was surely playing right into the piggy's argument. If 1/2 the people in Swiss jails are foreigners then that must mean they commit a hugely disproportionate amount of crime. Since they make up (what fraction? -- not 1/2) of society. If that number is weighted by the non-Swiss/Total then it's an extremely good point, and impressively, very much lower than other parts of Europe. Almost as thought in CH they hand out a certain amount of jail permits per year, the same way they do with residency.
The “if a Swiss person were to try and break into a house he wouldn’t know what to do (!)” is also a kind of meaningful point but kind of made backwards. Of course, shockingly presented. I'm guessing here... Swiss people must naturally make up the bulk of the numbers for fraud-type crimes where a detailed knowledge of the system/law/loop-holes are what counts. Numbers will be skewed away from what the policeman LOLarifically referred to as 'serious crime'.
*considers not pressing Post... presses Post anyway.
[quote][b]
charlotta (12/11/2008)[/b]
I just heard a Swiss policeman on World Radio Switzerland say that ”the reason why the crime rate in Switzerland isn’t reflected in the media is that crimes are usually commit by people from North Africa and the Balcans and reporting this in the media could fuel right wing extremism”!
[/quote]
I'd say the piggy they interviewed was just a little thick. Sure, he could have been racist as well, but certainly thick. Thick in that he explicitly cited examples. He's correct, though, isn't he, to some extent: I've never actually seen the numbers of crimes committed by immigrants from various countries vs. the indigenous or Nth generation naturalised population. Presumably for precisely the reason he states: because there would be mega backlash in society.
As I understand things, for most countries in the EU (I.e. not including CH): people entering the country through immigration do commit more violent crime in particular, and crime-in-total, than those that haven't. Normalised by the fraction of society they represent. I kind of thought that was common knowledge, although it's true, we don't talk about it much, outside the populist right-wing press. The problem is that that the data is mis-represented by the media and open to the standard mis-interpretation by the idiot public: that people that come from funny countries are natural born criminals. When in fact the correlation implies nothing, and is more likely to stem from the governments' failures to integrate the people that come in, even on timescales longer than a generation.
With that in mind, I can't really fathom the 51/49 statistic. If it's a raw ratio then the interviewer was surely playing right into the piggy's argument. If 1/2 the people in Swiss jails are foreigners then that must mean they commit a hugely disproportionate amount of crime. Since they make up (what fraction? -- not 1/2) of society. If that number is weighted by the non-Swiss/Total then it's an extremely good point, and impressively, very much lower than other parts of Europe. Almost as thought in CH they hand out a certain amount of jail permits per year, the same way they do with residency.
The “if a Swiss person were to try and break into a house he wouldn’t know what to do (!)” is also a kind of meaningful point but kind of made backwards. Of course, shockingly presented. I'm guessing here... Swiss people must naturally make up the bulk of the numbers for fraud-type crimes where a detailed knowledge of the system/law/loop-holes are what counts. Numbers will be skewed away from what the policeman LOLarifically referred to as 'serious crime'.
*considers not pressing Post... presses Post anyway.
The text you are quoting:
Oooh, action on the General forum. Excellent.
[quote][b]
charlotta (12/11/2008)[/b]
I just heard a Swiss policeman on World Radio Switzerland say that ”the reason why the crime rate in Switzerland isn’t reflected in the media is that crimes are usually commit by people from North Africa and the Balcans and reporting this in the media could fuel right wing extremism”!
[/quote]
I'd say the piggy they interviewed was just a little thick. Sure, he could have been racist as well, but certainly thick. Thick in that he explicitly cited examples. He's correct, though, isn't he, to some extent: I've never actually seen the numbers of crimes committed by immigrants from various countries vs. the indigenous or Nth generation naturalised population. Presumably for precisely the reason he states: because there would be mega backlash in society.
As I understand things, for most countries in the EU (I.e. not including CH): people entering the country through immigration do commit more violent crime in particular, and crime-in-total, than those that haven't. Normalised by the fraction of society they represent. I kind of thought that was common knowledge, although it's true, we don't talk about it much, outside the populist right-wing press. The problem is that that the data is mis-represented by the media and open to the standard mis-interpretation by the idiot public: that people that come from funny countries are natural born criminals. When in fact the correlation implies nothing, and is more likely to stem from the governments' failures to integrate the people that come in, even on timescales longer than a generation.
With that in mind, I can't really fathom the 51/49 statistic. If it's a raw ratio then the interviewer was surely playing right into the piggy's argument. If 1/2 the people in Swiss jails are foreigners then that must mean they commit a hugely disproportionate amount of crime. Since they make up (what fraction? -- not 1/2) of society. If that number is weighted by the non-Swiss/Total then it's an extremely good point, and impressively, very much lower than other parts of Europe. Almost as thought in CH they hand out a certain amount of jail permits per year, the same way they do with residency.
The “if a Swiss person were to try and break into a house he wouldn’t know what to do (!)” is also a kind of meaningful point but kind of made backwards. Of course, shockingly presented. I'm guessing here... Swiss people must naturally make up the bulk of the numbers for fraud-type crimes where a detailed knowledge of the system/law/loop-holes are what counts. Numbers will be skewed away from what the policeman LOLarifically referred to as 'serious crime'.
*considers not pressing Post... presses Post anyway.
hayes, Nov 12, 2008 @ 13:20
[quote][b]
charlotta (12/11/2008)[/b]
I just heard a Swiss policeman on World Radio Switzerland say that ”the reason why the crime rate in Switzerland isn’t reflected in the media is that crimes are usually commit by people from North Africa and the Balcans and reporting this in the media could fuel right wing extremism”!
[/quote]
I'd say the piggy they interviewed was just a little thick. Sure, he could have been racist as well, but certainly thick. Thick in that he explicitly cited examples. He's correct, though, isn't he, to some extent: I've never actually seen the numbers of crimes committed by immigrants from various countries vs. the indigenous or Nth generation naturalised population. Presumably for precisely the reason he states: because there would be mega backlash in society.
As I understand things, for most countries in the EU (I.e. not including CH): people entering the country through immigration do commit more violent crime in particular, and crime-in-total, than those that haven't. Normalised by the fraction of society they represent. I kind of thought that was common knowledge, although it's true, we don't talk about it much, outside the populist right-wing press. The problem is that that the data is mis-represented by the media and open to the standard mis-interpretation by the idiot public: that people that come from funny countries are natural born criminals. When in fact the correlation implies nothing, and is more likely to stem from the governments' failures to integrate the people that come in, even on timescales longer than a generation.
With that in mind, I can't really fathom the 51/49 statistic. If it's a raw ratio then the interviewer was surely playing right into the piggy's argument. If 1/2 the people in Swiss jails are foreigners then that must mean they commit a hugely disproportionate amount of crime. Since they make up (what fraction? -- not 1/2) of society. If that number is weighted by the non-Swiss/Total then it's an extremely good point, and impressively, very much lower than other parts of Europe. Almost as thought in CH they hand out a certain amount of jail permits per year, the same way they do with residency.
The “if a Swiss person were to try and break into a house he wouldn’t know what to do (!)” is also a kind of meaningful point but kind of made backwards. Of course, shockingly presented. I'm guessing here... Swiss people must naturally make up the bulk of the numbers for fraud-type crimes where a detailed knowledge of the system/law/loop-holes are what counts. Numbers will be skewed away from what the policeman LOLarifically referred to as 'serious crime'.
*considers not pressing Post... presses Post anyway.
hayes, Nov 12, 2008 @ 13:20
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Re: rasist policeman on WRS
Post 5
Nov 12, 2008 @ 14:23
I think that the question whether the facts that the policeman presents are correct or not is beside the point – I don’t doubt the fact that a lot of immigrants commit crimes, and this is something that people don’t need to be reminded of on public radio. Hearing a policeman of high authority say something like this so openly does not exactly help to fight rasism among people – if anything it helps to fuel it. That is what I find provoking about his statements.
I don’t think many people with rasist views see themselves as rasists – most of them are people who base their opinions on facts told by authorities like this policeman, and then through inductive reasoning come to the conclusion that their country would be a safer place without North-Africans, Balcans etc. It’s not “because they have anything against immigrants” but because “they want to be able to feel safe in their own country” or similar.
I also find it a bit paradoxical that he defends the lack of crime reports in the Swiss media with the fact that it could fuel rasism when this is exactly what he is doing himself on WRS!
Also, I don’t understand how reporting about a crime in a newspaper would by necessity mean that you are forced to mention the nationality of the criminal. In the country where I am from that is something that is never mentioned when media reports about crimes – unless it is a crime that concerns the whole nation (like the murder of a foreign affairs minister or a long running murder case) when all the personal details of him/her are being made public. But as a general rule it is seen as irrelevant if the criminal is an immigrant or not.
I don’t agree with Hayes that “The “if a Swiss person were to try and break into a house he wouldn’t know what to do (!)” is also a kind of meaningful point but kind of made backwards”. This is clearly a statement that is not supported by empirical observations and only seems to reflect his own personal ideas of the Swiss people as innocent and honest. Sure, I understand that he doesn’t litterally mean that all swiss people are incapable of breaking in to houses, but even as a generalised statement, I find it absurd.
I don’t think many people with rasist views see themselves as rasists – most of them are people who base their opinions on facts told by authorities like this policeman, and then through inductive reasoning come to the conclusion that their country would be a safer place without North-Africans, Balcans etc. It’s not “because they have anything against immigrants” but because “they want to be able to feel safe in their own country” or similar.
I also find it a bit paradoxical that he defends the lack of crime reports in the Swiss media with the fact that it could fuel rasism when this is exactly what he is doing himself on WRS!
Also, I don’t understand how reporting about a crime in a newspaper would by necessity mean that you are forced to mention the nationality of the criminal. In the country where I am from that is something that is never mentioned when media reports about crimes – unless it is a crime that concerns the whole nation (like the murder of a foreign affairs minister or a long running murder case) when all the personal details of him/her are being made public. But as a general rule it is seen as irrelevant if the criminal is an immigrant or not.
I don’t agree with Hayes that “The “if a Swiss person were to try and break into a house he wouldn’t know what to do (!)” is also a kind of meaningful point but kind of made backwards”. This is clearly a statement that is not supported by empirical observations and only seems to reflect his own personal ideas of the Swiss people as innocent and honest. Sure, I understand that he doesn’t litterally mean that all swiss people are incapable of breaking in to houses, but even as a generalised statement, I find it absurd.
The text you are quoting:
I think that the question whether the facts that the policeman presents are correct or not is beside the point – I don’t doubt the fact that a lot of immigrants commit crimes, and this is something that people don’t need to be reminded of on public radio. Hearing a policeman of high authority say something like this so openly does not exactly help to fight rasism among people – if anything it helps to fuel it. That is what I find provoking about his statements.
I don’t think many people with rasist views see themselves as rasists – most of them are people who base their opinions on facts told by authorities like this policeman, and then through inductive reasoning come to the conclusion that their country would be a safer place without North-Africans, Balcans etc. It’s not “because they have anything against immigrants” but because “they want to be able to feel safe in their own country” or similar.
I also find it a bit paradoxical that he defends the lack of crime reports in the Swiss media with the fact that it could fuel rasism when this is exactly what he is doing himself on WRS!
Also, I don’t understand how reporting about a crime in a newspaper would by necessity mean that you are forced to mention the nationality of the criminal. In the country where I am from that is something that is never mentioned when media reports about crimes – unless it is a crime that concerns the whole nation (like the murder of a foreign affairs minister or a long running murder case) when all the personal details of him/her are being made public. But as a general rule it is seen as irrelevant if the criminal is an immigrant or not.
I don’t agree with Hayes that “The “if a Swiss person were to try and break into a house he wouldn’t know what to do (!)” is also a kind of meaningful point but kind of made backwards”. This is clearly a statement that is not supported by empirical observations and only seems to reflect his own personal ideas of the Swiss people as innocent and honest. Sure, I understand that he doesn’t litterally mean that all swiss people are incapable of breaking in to houses, but even as a generalised statement, I find it absurd.
charlotta, Nov 12, 2008 @ 14:23
I don’t think many people with rasist views see themselves as rasists – most of them are people who base their opinions on facts told by authorities like this policeman, and then through inductive reasoning come to the conclusion that their country would be a safer place without North-Africans, Balcans etc. It’s not “because they have anything against immigrants” but because “they want to be able to feel safe in their own country” or similar.
I also find it a bit paradoxical that he defends the lack of crime reports in the Swiss media with the fact that it could fuel rasism when this is exactly what he is doing himself on WRS!
Also, I don’t understand how reporting about a crime in a newspaper would by necessity mean that you are forced to mention the nationality of the criminal. In the country where I am from that is something that is never mentioned when media reports about crimes – unless it is a crime that concerns the whole nation (like the murder of a foreign affairs minister or a long running murder case) when all the personal details of him/her are being made public. But as a general rule it is seen as irrelevant if the criminal is an immigrant or not.
I don’t agree with Hayes that “The “if a Swiss person were to try and break into a house he wouldn’t know what to do (!)” is also a kind of meaningful point but kind of made backwards”. This is clearly a statement that is not supported by empirical observations and only seems to reflect his own personal ideas of the Swiss people as innocent and honest. Sure, I understand that he doesn’t litterally mean that all swiss people are incapable of breaking in to houses, but even as a generalised statement, I find it absurd.
charlotta, Nov 12, 2008 @ 14:23
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Re: rasist policeman on WRS
Post 6
Nov 12, 2008 @ 14:29
Nice post Hayes
I agree with you, in order to get an accurte picture of the crime level in Switzerland, we would have to have an extensive demographic of crimes committed by people in swiss jails and the ratio of nationalities committing each of these crimes, categorise them by seriousness and conclude which ethnic group is responsable for the majority of the more serious crimes.
Also I am convinced that if losing your bread into the fodue pot was a crime, Swiss jails would be overflowing with maybe a 49/51 % ratio of Swiss to non-Swiss nationals, as Swiss nationals also lose their bread, but are also guilty of causing non-Swiss nationals to lose their bread, by attacking their 'forchette'. So as to come out on top as victor of the cheese fondue bread fight!
Simon
The text you are quoting:
Nice post Hayes
I agree with you, in order to get an accurte picture of the crime level in Switzerland, we would have to have an extensive demographic of crimes committed by people in swiss jails and the ratio of nationalities committing each of these crimes, categorise them by seriousness and conclude which ethnic group is responsable for the majority of the more serious crimes.
Also I am convinced that if losing your bread into the fodue pot was a crime, Swiss jails would be overflowing with maybe a 49/51 % ratio of Swiss to non-Swiss nationals, as Swiss nationals also lose their bread, but are also guilty of causing non-Swiss nationals to lose their bread, by attacking their 'forchette'. So as to come out on top as victor of the cheese fondue bread fight!
Simon
DJ_Symcard, Nov 12, 2008 @ 14:29
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Re: rasist policeman on WRS
Post 7
Nov 12, 2008 @ 14:38
Hmmmm
I am more and more aware of the trend that stating the obvious dysfunctional behaviours of people is classed as judgement. That stating the facts of a certain subject which may be contreversial is seen as racism when it is involving ethnic groups. I find it is getting more and more frequent when people state what they see as a reality (even though they may be wrong or ignorant) is seen as unacceptable, and are provided with labels such as racist, judgemental or other damning titles.
Is it racist to state that the majority of drug dealers on the streets of Geneva are of African origin? Is it racist to state that the majority of prostitutes are of Eastern European and South American origin? I believe no, as these are obvious truths, and majority doesn't mean 'all' it means 'most' leaving room for Swiss nationals to be implicated. So why is it racist to state that other nationals are mostly responsable for certain crimes, or the majority of crime that the police spend their time dealing with?
The text you are quoting:
Hmmmm
I am more and more aware of the trend that stating the obvious dysfunctional behaviours of people is classed as judgement. That stating the facts of a certain subject which may be contreversial is seen as racism when it is involving ethnic groups. I find it is getting more and more frequent when people state what they see as a reality (even though they may be wrong or ignorant) is seen as unacceptable, and are provided with labels such as racist, judgemental or other damning titles.
Is it racist to state that the majority of drug dealers on the streets of Geneva are of African origin? Is it racist to state that the majority of prostitutes are of Eastern European and South American origin? I believe no, as these are obvious truths, and majority doesn't mean 'all' it means 'most' leaving room for Swiss nationals to be implicated. So why is it racist to state that other nationals are mostly responsable for certain crimes, or the majority of crime that the police spend their time dealing with?
DJ_Symcard, Nov 12, 2008 @ 14:38
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Re: rasist policeman on WRS
Post 8
Nov 12, 2008 @ 14:40
Also,Charlotta
We have to assume that your post is word for word correct and accurate as to what the police officer said, and was not unintendedly exagerated by your outrage over what was said.
The text you are quoting:
Also,Charlotta
We have to assume that your post is word for word correct and accurate as to what the police officer said, and was not unintendedly exagerated by your outrage over what was said.
DJ_Symcard, Nov 12, 2008 @ 14:40
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Re: rasist policeman on WRS
Post 9
Nov 12, 2008 @ 15:15
I don't think the issue (as far as I see it anyway) is that there might or might not be certain ethnicities in a certain country who commit more crimes. What resonated for me in what this cop said was that there seemed to be a thread of real racism in his statements. That is, that African (insert ethnicity of your choice here) people are of course expert criminals but Swiss people are somehow better, because even if they broke in they wouldn't know what to do. First, why would anyone break in if not to steal/kill/whatever? Unless they have some kind of dementia, but I digress. Second, the implication is that the Swiss are inherently more honest/better people that certain "others," because they wouldn't know what to do (i.e., it is against the Swiss nature to do dishonest things) which is racism.
This cop was definitely stereotyping people. So what's to say that he (and others) do not discriminate as well? Would he let off a young Swiss man for a similar crime (perhaps with a warning), for which he would arrest a young African man? How does he use his discretionary powers on the street? How do the rest of Swiss cops? If there is a difference, then he is racist.
And I'm sorry ignorance does not mitigate racism. Just because a KKK person did not know that black people were indeed human *gasp* and that they were equal to him, does not make him non-racist.
The text you are quoting:
I don't think the issue (as far as I see it anyway) is that there might or might not be certain ethnicities in a certain country who commit more crimes. What resonated for me in what this cop said was that there seemed to be a thread of real racism in his statements. That is, that African (insert ethnicity of your choice here) people are of course expert criminals but Swiss people are somehow better, because even if they broke in they wouldn't know what to do. First, why would anyone break in if not to steal/kill/whatever? Unless they have some kind of dementia, but I digress. Second, the implication is that the Swiss are inherently more honest/better people that certain "others," because they wouldn't know what to do (i.e., it is against the Swiss nature to do dishonest things) which is racism.
This cop was definitely stereotyping people. So what's to say that he (and others) do not discriminate as well? Would he let off a young Swiss man for a similar crime (perhaps with a warning), for which he would arrest a young African man? How does he use his discretionary powers on the street? How do the rest of Swiss cops? If there is a difference, then he is racist.
And I'm sorry ignorance does not mitigate racism. Just because a KKK person did not know that black people were indeed human *gasp* and that they were equal to him, does not make him non-racist.
Jawahara, Nov 12, 2008 @ 15:15
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Re: rasist policeman on WRS
Post 10
Nov 12, 2008 @ 15:15
[quote][b]
charlotta (12/11/2008)[/b]
Also, I don’t understand how reporting about a crime in a newspaper would by necessity mean that you are forced to mention the nationality of the criminal. In the country where I am from that is something that is never mentioned when media reports about crimes – unless it is a crime that concerns the whole nation (like the murder of a foreign affairs minister or a long running murder case) when all the personal details of him/her are being made public. But as a general rule it is seen as irrelevant if the criminal is an immigrant or not. [/quote]
That's difficult, isn't it. Doesn't it fall back to what the actual job of the media is? If their role is to inform the public what has happened and what is going to happen to the person that did it then one would, I guess, have to go for complete anonymity for the criminal. I would be totally in favour of that, actually. Leave the statistics and the interpretation to those who actually have the skills to not screw it up. And don't give the public enough ammunition to become collectively stupider, and for the whole thing to blow up on the political level.
But that's not what does happen with our darling media. Their duty, is seems, is to report what has happened, how it happened, who did it, who is to blame, what's going happen to the person, why more should happen to them, and to speculate wildly on how can we make things better. To leave journalism behind in favour of opinion. The media report information over the following following range:
[quote][b]
charlotta (12/11/2008)[/b]
I don’t agree with Hayes that “The “if a Swiss person were to try and break into a house he wouldn’t know what to do (!)” is also a kind of meaningful point but kind of made backwards”. This is clearly a statement that is not supported by empirical observations and only seems to reflect his own personal ideas of the Swiss people as innocent and honest. Sure, I understand that he doesn’t litterally mean that all swiss people are incapable of breaking in to houses, but even as a generalised statement, I find it absurd.
[/quote]
Well, since I used the words "kind of", "backwards", "shockingly presented", "guessing here", and "LOLarifically" in the same paragraph, I was hoping it would show that I wasn't 100% behind it either. Still, I had a stab at trying to interpret what he said into something less... idiotic. Of course the 'not know what to do' was his own opinion seeping out; nothing else. Nevertheless, I still think he was trying to convey something similar to the likely skew in the numbers that I mentioned.
charlotta (12/11/2008)[/b]
Also, I don’t understand how reporting about a crime in a newspaper would by necessity mean that you are forced to mention the nationality of the criminal. In the country where I am from that is something that is never mentioned when media reports about crimes – unless it is a crime that concerns the whole nation (like the murder of a foreign affairs minister or a long running murder case) when all the personal details of him/her are being made public. But as a general rule it is seen as irrelevant if the criminal is an immigrant or not. [/quote]
That's difficult, isn't it. Doesn't it fall back to what the actual job of the media is? If their role is to inform the public what has happened and what is going to happen to the person that did it then one would, I guess, have to go for complete anonymity for the criminal. I would be totally in favour of that, actually. Leave the statistics and the interpretation to those who actually have the skills to not screw it up. And don't give the public enough ammunition to become collectively stupider, and for the whole thing to blow up on the political level.
But that's not what does happen with our darling media. Their duty, is seems, is to report what has happened, how it happened, who did it, who is to blame, what's going happen to the person, why more should happen to them, and to speculate wildly on how can we make things better. To leave journalism behind in favour of opinion. The media report information over the following following range:
- The assailant...
- The assailant, Hayes...
- The assailant, Hayes (31)...
- The assailant, Hayes (31, British)...
- The assailant, Hayes (31, British, Caucasian)...
- The assailant, Hayes (31, British, Caucasian, straight, 183cm, cool as f*%$!...)...
[quote][b]
charlotta (12/11/2008)[/b]
I don’t agree with Hayes that “The “if a Swiss person were to try and break into a house he wouldn’t know what to do (!)” is also a kind of meaningful point but kind of made backwards”. This is clearly a statement that is not supported by empirical observations and only seems to reflect his own personal ideas of the Swiss people as innocent and honest. Sure, I understand that he doesn’t litterally mean that all swiss people are incapable of breaking in to houses, but even as a generalised statement, I find it absurd.
[/quote]
Well, since I used the words "kind of", "backwards", "shockingly presented", "guessing here", and "LOLarifically" in the same paragraph, I was hoping it would show that I wasn't 100% behind it either. Still, I had a stab at trying to interpret what he said into something less... idiotic. Of course the 'not know what to do' was his own opinion seeping out; nothing else. Nevertheless, I still think he was trying to convey something similar to the likely skew in the numbers that I mentioned.
The text you are quoting:
[quote][b]
charlotta (12/11/2008)[/b]
Also, I don’t understand how reporting about a crime in a newspaper would by necessity mean that you are forced to mention the nationality of the criminal. In the country where I am from that is something that is never mentioned when media reports about crimes – unless it is a crime that concerns the whole nation (like the murder of a foreign affairs minister or a long running murder case) when all the personal details of him/her are being made public. But as a general rule it is seen as irrelevant if the criminal is an immigrant or not. [/quote]
That's difficult, isn't it. Doesn't it fall back to what the actual job of the media is? If their role is to inform the public what has happened and what is going to happen to the person that did it then one would, I guess, have to go for complete anonymity for the criminal. I would be totally in favour of that, actually. Leave the statistics and the interpretation to those who actually have the skills to not screw it up. And don't give the public enough ammunition to become collectively stupider, and for the whole thing to blow up on the political level.
But that's not what does happen with our darling media. Their duty, is seems, is to report what has happened, how it happened, who did it, who is to blame, what's going happen to the person, why more should happen to them, and to speculate wildly on how can we make things better. To leave journalism behind in favour of opinion. The media report information over the following following range:
[quote][b]
charlotta (12/11/2008)[/b]
I don’t agree with Hayes that “The “if a Swiss person were to try and break into a house he wouldn’t know what to do (!)” is also a kind of meaningful point but kind of made backwards”. This is clearly a statement that is not supported by empirical observations and only seems to reflect his own personal ideas of the Swiss people as innocent and honest. Sure, I understand that he doesn’t litterally mean that all swiss people are incapable of breaking in to houses, but even as a generalised statement, I find it absurd.
[/quote]
Well, since I used the words "kind of", "backwards", "shockingly presented", "guessing here", and "LOLarifically" in the same paragraph, I was hoping it would show that I wasn't 100% behind it either. Still, I had a stab at trying to interpret what he said into something less... idiotic. Of course the 'not know what to do' was his own opinion seeping out; nothing else. Nevertheless, I still think he was trying to convey something similar to the likely skew in the numbers that I mentioned.
hayes, Nov 12, 2008 @ 15:15
charlotta (12/11/2008)[/b]
Also, I don’t understand how reporting about a crime in a newspaper would by necessity mean that you are forced to mention the nationality of the criminal. In the country where I am from that is something that is never mentioned when media reports about crimes – unless it is a crime that concerns the whole nation (like the murder of a foreign affairs minister or a long running murder case) when all the personal details of him/her are being made public. But as a general rule it is seen as irrelevant if the criminal is an immigrant or not. [/quote]
That's difficult, isn't it. Doesn't it fall back to what the actual job of the media is? If their role is to inform the public what has happened and what is going to happen to the person that did it then one would, I guess, have to go for complete anonymity for the criminal. I would be totally in favour of that, actually. Leave the statistics and the interpretation to those who actually have the skills to not screw it up. And don't give the public enough ammunition to become collectively stupider, and for the whole thing to blow up on the political level.
But that's not what does happen with our darling media. Their duty, is seems, is to report what has happened, how it happened, who did it, who is to blame, what's going happen to the person, why more should happen to them, and to speculate wildly on how can we make things better. To leave journalism behind in favour of opinion. The media report information over the following following range:
- The assailant...
- The assailant, Hayes...
- The assailant, Hayes (31)...
- The assailant, Hayes (31, British)...
- The assailant, Hayes (31, British, Caucasian)...
- The assailant, Hayes (31, British, Caucasian, straight, 183cm, cool as f*%$!...)...
[quote][b]
charlotta (12/11/2008)[/b]
I don’t agree with Hayes that “The “if a Swiss person were to try and break into a house he wouldn’t know what to do (!)” is also a kind of meaningful point but kind of made backwards”. This is clearly a statement that is not supported by empirical observations and only seems to reflect his own personal ideas of the Swiss people as innocent and honest. Sure, I understand that he doesn’t litterally mean that all swiss people are incapable of breaking in to houses, but even as a generalised statement, I find it absurd.
[/quote]
Well, since I used the words "kind of", "backwards", "shockingly presented", "guessing here", and "LOLarifically" in the same paragraph, I was hoping it would show that I wasn't 100% behind it either. Still, I had a stab at trying to interpret what he said into something less... idiotic. Of course the 'not know what to do' was his own opinion seeping out; nothing else. Nevertheless, I still think he was trying to convey something similar to the likely skew in the numbers that I mentioned.
hayes, Nov 12, 2008 @ 15:15
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Re: rasist policeman on WRS
Post 11
Nov 12, 2008 @ 15:48
Dj Symcard: again, you are missing my point.
I clearly stated in my previous post that my main concern is that when a person of authority chooses to express himself like he did on a radio program, then the listeners will interpret these facts as being undeniably true, because they are being expressed by someone who has access to actual statistics. This, in turn, helps to generate racist opinions among those who already feel threatened by immigration. My argument concerns the moral responsibility and bad/good judgement among people in power.
Hence, your questions whether it is racist to say that most drug dealers are black or not etc are irrelevent here.
But since you ask: I think that a statement that is the result of actual observations, and that can easily be verified by anyone, would not classify as a rasist opinion as long as it is objectivley stated as a fact and not used as an argument to why blacks are inferior to white people or why Africans are a burden to Swiss economy or similar. I think that it would be a bit ridiculous to claim that a statement like "most drug dealers outside l'usine are black" for example is racist, because it's a fact. Not allowing yourself and others to state facts concerning immigrants and crimes does not help fight racism but would end up having the reverse effect. It is your intention that decides if you're racist or not.
As for your concern that "we have to assume that your post is word for word correct and accurate as to what the police officer said, and was not unintendedly exagerated by your outrage over what was said." I can only say that trying to prove the accuracy of what I claim to have heard is not only impossible since I didn't record it but would also be pointless anyway since your main concern seems to be to find flaws in my argument rather than understanding my point. And no, of course the quotes aren't "word for word" correct since my mind is not a tape recorder, but they are close enough.
I clearly stated in my previous post that my main concern is that when a person of authority chooses to express himself like he did on a radio program, then the listeners will interpret these facts as being undeniably true, because they are being expressed by someone who has access to actual statistics. This, in turn, helps to generate racist opinions among those who already feel threatened by immigration. My argument concerns the moral responsibility and bad/good judgement among people in power.
Hence, your questions whether it is racist to say that most drug dealers are black or not etc are irrelevent here.
But since you ask: I think that a statement that is the result of actual observations, and that can easily be verified by anyone, would not classify as a rasist opinion as long as it is objectivley stated as a fact and not used as an argument to why blacks are inferior to white people or why Africans are a burden to Swiss economy or similar. I think that it would be a bit ridiculous to claim that a statement like "most drug dealers outside l'usine are black" for example is racist, because it's a fact. Not allowing yourself and others to state facts concerning immigrants and crimes does not help fight racism but would end up having the reverse effect. It is your intention that decides if you're racist or not.
As for your concern that "we have to assume that your post is word for word correct and accurate as to what the police officer said, and was not unintendedly exagerated by your outrage over what was said." I can only say that trying to prove the accuracy of what I claim to have heard is not only impossible since I didn't record it but would also be pointless anyway since your main concern seems to be to find flaws in my argument rather than understanding my point. And no, of course the quotes aren't "word for word" correct since my mind is not a tape recorder, but they are close enough.
The text you are quoting:
Dj Symcard: again, you are missing my point.
I clearly stated in my previous post that my main concern is that when a person of authority chooses to express himself like he did on a radio program, then the listeners will interpret these facts as being undeniably true, because they are being expressed by someone who has access to actual statistics. This, in turn, helps to generate racist opinions among those who already feel threatened by immigration. My argument concerns the moral responsibility and bad/good judgement among people in power.
Hence, your questions whether it is racist to say that most drug dealers are black or not etc are irrelevent here.
But since you ask: I think that a statement that is the result of actual observations, and that can easily be verified by anyone, would not classify as a rasist opinion as long as it is objectivley stated as a fact and not used as an argument to why blacks are inferior to white people or why Africans are a burden to Swiss economy or similar. I think that it would be a bit ridiculous to claim that a statement like "most drug dealers outside l'usine are black" for example is racist, because it's a fact. Not allowing yourself and others to state facts concerning immigrants and crimes does not help fight racism but would end up having the reverse effect. It is your intention that decides if you're racist or not.
As for your concern that "we have to assume that your post is word for word correct and accurate as to what the police officer said, and was not unintendedly exagerated by your outrage over what was said." I can only say that trying to prove the accuracy of what I claim to have heard is not only impossible since I didn't record it but would also be pointless anyway since your main concern seems to be to find flaws in my argument rather than understanding my point. And no, of course the quotes aren't "word for word" correct since my mind is not a tape recorder, but they are close enough.
charlotta, Nov 12, 2008 @ 15:48
I clearly stated in my previous post that my main concern is that when a person of authority chooses to express himself like he did on a radio program, then the listeners will interpret these facts as being undeniably true, because they are being expressed by someone who has access to actual statistics. This, in turn, helps to generate racist opinions among those who already feel threatened by immigration. My argument concerns the moral responsibility and bad/good judgement among people in power.
Hence, your questions whether it is racist to say that most drug dealers are black or not etc are irrelevent here.
But since you ask: I think that a statement that is the result of actual observations, and that can easily be verified by anyone, would not classify as a rasist opinion as long as it is objectivley stated as a fact and not used as an argument to why blacks are inferior to white people or why Africans are a burden to Swiss economy or similar. I think that it would be a bit ridiculous to claim that a statement like "most drug dealers outside l'usine are black" for example is racist, because it's a fact. Not allowing yourself and others to state facts concerning immigrants and crimes does not help fight racism but would end up having the reverse effect. It is your intention that decides if you're racist or not.
As for your concern that "we have to assume that your post is word for word correct and accurate as to what the police officer said, and was not unintendedly exagerated by your outrage over what was said." I can only say that trying to prove the accuracy of what I claim to have heard is not only impossible since I didn't record it but would also be pointless anyway since your main concern seems to be to find flaws in my argument rather than understanding my point. And no, of course the quotes aren't "word for word" correct since my mind is not a tape recorder, but they are close enough.
charlotta, Nov 12, 2008 @ 15:48
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Re: rasist policeman on WRS
Post 12
Nov 12, 2008 @ 15:51
I agree with the Hayes and Simon camp for the simple reason that statistics exist. I don't really care about what the cop said. Guess what? Some of the talk in this forum might be a little anti-police as well.
One of the reasons statistics exist is to try to find solutions to problems by studying where they are mostly concentrated. We could also just bury our heads in the sand and ignore problems...
Personally, I perceive that nowadays there are a lot of minorities (race, religion, sexual inclinations, country, gender, age......) who are extremely focused on and and identify themselves solely by their difference, which I find pathetic. That all you got?
Ever seen Little Britain? There's this poor gay guy who WANTS VERY BADLY to be persecuted by heteros but is constantly encountering other gays, to his mounting frustration....
The text you are quoting:
I agree with the Hayes and Simon camp for the simple reason that statistics exist. I don't really care about what the cop said. Guess what? Some of the talk in this forum might be a little anti-police as well.
One of the reasons statistics exist is to try to find solutions to problems by studying where they are mostly concentrated. We could also just bury our heads in the sand and ignore problems...
Personally, I perceive that nowadays there are a lot of minorities (race, religion, sexual inclinations, country, gender, age......) who are extremely focused on and and identify themselves solely by their difference, which I find pathetic. That all you got?
Ever seen Little Britain? There's this poor gay guy who WANTS VERY BADLY to be persecuted by heteros but is constantly encountering other gays, to his mounting frustration....
MarmarK, Nov 12, 2008 @ 15:51
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Re: rasist policeman on WRS
Post 13
Nov 12, 2008 @ 16:20
[quote]
Unless you have access to data supporting your assertion that the policeman's statement on the purported Swiss nationals' ability to commit break-insis not supported by empirical observations, your statement is equally absurd, if I may.[/quote]
Villarsvilla, what exactly is the point that you are trying to make here? I get that your main intention is probably to outshine me in argumentative analysis, but besides that? This is a thread on an internet forum, not a university thesis.
Do you honestly think that my assumption that there has not been any large scale empirical studies about whether Swiss people are capable of breaking in to houses or not is "absurd"? Seriously, you need a reality check. If I may.
I think that Jawahara is making an important point in saying that "the implication is that the Swiss are inherently more honest/better people that certain "others," because they wouldn't know what to do (i.e., it is against the Swiss nature to do dishonest things) which is racism"
Unless you have access to data supporting your assertion that the policeman's statement on the purported Swiss nationals' ability to commit break-insis not supported by empirical observations, your statement is equally absurd, if I may.[/quote]
Villarsvilla, what exactly is the point that you are trying to make here? I get that your main intention is probably to outshine me in argumentative analysis, but besides that? This is a thread on an internet forum, not a university thesis.
Do you honestly think that my assumption that there has not been any large scale empirical studies about whether Swiss people are capable of breaking in to houses or not is "absurd"? Seriously, you need a reality check. If I may.
I think that Jawahara is making an important point in saying that "the implication is that the Swiss are inherently more honest/better people that certain "others," because they wouldn't know what to do (i.e., it is against the Swiss nature to do dishonest things) which is racism"
The text you are quoting:
[quote]
Unless you have access to data supporting your assertion that the policeman's statement on the purported Swiss nationals' ability to commit break-insis not supported by empirical observations, your statement is equally absurd, if I may.[/quote]
Villarsvilla, what exactly is the point that you are trying to make here? I get that your main intention is probably to outshine me in argumentative analysis, but besides that? This is a thread on an internet forum, not a university thesis.
Do you honestly think that my assumption that there has not been any large scale empirical studies about whether Swiss people are capable of breaking in to houses or not is "absurd"? Seriously, you need a reality check. If I may.
I think that Jawahara is making an important point in saying that "the implication is that the Swiss are inherently more honest/better people that certain "others," because they wouldn't know what to do (i.e., it is against the Swiss nature to do dishonest things) which is racism"
charlotta, Nov 12, 2008 @ 16:20
Unless you have access to data supporting your assertion that the policeman's statement on the purported Swiss nationals' ability to commit break-insis not supported by empirical observations, your statement is equally absurd, if I may.[/quote]
Villarsvilla, what exactly is the point that you are trying to make here? I get that your main intention is probably to outshine me in argumentative analysis, but besides that? This is a thread on an internet forum, not a university thesis.
Do you honestly think that my assumption that there has not been any large scale empirical studies about whether Swiss people are capable of breaking in to houses or not is "absurd"? Seriously, you need a reality check. If I may.
I think that Jawahara is making an important point in saying that "the implication is that the Swiss are inherently more honest/better people that certain "others," because they wouldn't know what to do (i.e., it is against the Swiss nature to do dishonest things) which is racism"
charlotta, Nov 12, 2008 @ 16:20
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Re: rasist policeman on WRS
Post 14
Nov 12, 2008 @ 17:03
Villarsvilla, what exactly is the point that you are trying to make here? I get that your main intention is probably to outshine me in argumentative analysis, but besides that? This is a thread on an internet forum, not a university thesis.
Do you honestly think that my assumption that there has not been any large scale empirical studies about whether Swiss people are capable of breaking in to houses or not is "absurd"? Seriously, you need a reality check. If I may.
I think that Jawahara is making an important point in saying that "the implication is that the Swiss are inherently more honest/better people that certain "others," because they wouldn't know what to do (i.e., it is against the Swiss nature to do dishonest things) which is racism"[/quote]
Correct me if I'm wrong but there is no race called Swiss.
And why assume that the comment about the Swiss not knowing know how or what to steal is necessarily implying that it is against the Swiss nature to do dishonest things or that they are better people? You infer a meaning which may or may not be that of the speaker. Perhaps that was a slur at the Swiss intelligence instead.
;)
The text you are quoting:
Villarsvilla, what exactly is the point that you are trying to make here? I get that your main intention is probably to outshine me in argumentative analysis, but besides that? This is a thread on an internet forum, not a university thesis.
Do you honestly think that my assumption that there has not been any large scale empirical studies about whether Swiss people are capable of breaking in to houses or not is "absurd"? Seriously, you need a reality check. If I may.
I think that Jawahara is making an important point in saying that "the implication is that the Swiss are inherently more honest/better people that certain "others," because they wouldn't know what to do (i.e., it is against the Swiss nature to do dishonest things) which is racism"[/quote]
Correct me if I'm wrong but there is no race called Swiss.
And why assume that the comment about the Swiss not knowing know how or what to steal is necessarily implying that it is against the Swiss nature to do dishonest things or that they are better people? You infer a meaning which may or may not be that of the speaker. Perhaps that was a slur at the Swiss intelligence instead.
;)
MarmarK, Nov 12, 2008 @ 17:03
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Re: rasist policeman on WRS
Post 15
Nov 12, 2008 @ 17:07
Personally...I think most of the people posting on this thread, in their own way, are lightly touching on the surface of an amalgam of interconnected and very complex issues that rise to the surface as soon as the word racist comes out. So I guess, this the reason why some many of you are on different branches of the same tree.
Many of you keep commenting on the crime ration between immigrants and Swiss, but I don't understand why. We have to, initially assume that the numbers are correct, so this is not the argument. Now, if we start to discuss why the numbers are such...then we get into a bit of a mess. I'm sure none of us are criminologists or anywhere near being capable to give anything other than our opinion. As I understand it, there too many factors that come into play. Nevertheless, I will say this: In every country, most "serious" "violent" "ugly" (what ever you want to call it) crimes are committed by the poor...you just will not catch a UBS executive purse snatching an old lady. Therefore, if most of the poor are immigrants (as it is in most developed countries) then it actually makes sense that most of these crimes would be perpetrated by them. I'm sure if we look at the ethnic make up of Switzerland's lower class, the numbers would make a whole lot more sense when compare to the crime ratios. Obviously, the same goes for other types of crime such as embezzlement...not going to have the homeless doing most of those, so look at the upper class and their ethnic make up to compare.
I don't really see any police hating or bashing in the posts, so no need to accuse those that differ in opinion of it. Otherwise, the rest of you must be racist...and I'm sure that that is not the case.
Finally, if in fact this policeman made these statements, there is a hint of racism coming through. The point was made in an earlier post, he makes it sound like immigrants would be pros in a break-in and the Swiss would be lost and put into an unfamiliar situation. What a dumb statement. A Swiss thief would know exactly what to do, just like an immigrant thief. Then, with continued stupidity, he speculates as to why crime is reported in the media in the way it is...what is he? Big Brother?
Many of you keep commenting on the crime ration between immigrants and Swiss, but I don't understand why. We have to, initially assume that the numbers are correct, so this is not the argument. Now, if we start to discuss why the numbers are such...then we get into a bit of a mess. I'm sure none of us are criminologists or anywhere near being capable to give anything other than our opinion. As I understand it, there too many factors that come into play. Nevertheless, I will say this: In every country, most "serious" "violent" "ugly" (what ever you want to call it) crimes are committed by the poor...you just will not catch a UBS executive purse snatching an old lady. Therefore, if most of the poor are immigrants (as it is in most developed countries) then it actually makes sense that most of these crimes would be perpetrated by them. I'm sure if we look at the ethnic make up of Switzerland's lower class, the numbers would make a whole lot more sense when compare to the crime ratios. Obviously, the same goes for other types of crime such as embezzlement...not going to have the homeless doing most of those, so look at the upper class and their ethnic make up to compare.
I don't really see any police hating or bashing in the posts, so no need to accuse those that differ in opinion of it. Otherwise, the rest of you must be racist...and I'm sure that that is not the case.
Finally, if in fact this policeman made these statements, there is a hint of racism coming through. The point was made in an earlier post, he makes it sound like immigrants would be pros in a break-in and the Swiss would be lost and put into an unfamiliar situation. What a dumb statement. A Swiss thief would know exactly what to do, just like an immigrant thief. Then, with continued stupidity, he speculates as to why crime is reported in the media in the way it is...what is he? Big Brother?
The text you are quoting:
Personally...I think most of the people posting on this thread, in their own way, are lightly touching on the surface of an amalgam of interconnected and very complex issues that rise to the surface as soon as the word racist comes out. So I guess, this the reason why some many of you are on different branches of the same tree.
Many of you keep commenting on the crime ration between immigrants and Swiss, but I don't understand why. We have to, initially assume that the numbers are correct, so this is not the argument. Now, if we start to discuss why the numbers are such...then we get into a bit of a mess. I'm sure none of us are criminologists or anywhere near being capable to give anything other than our opinion. As I understand it, there too many factors that come into play. Nevertheless, I will say this: In every country, most "serious" "violent" "ugly" (what ever you want to call it) crimes are committed by the poor...you just will not catch a UBS executive purse snatching an old lady. Therefore, if most of the poor are immigrants (as it is in most developed countries) then it actually makes sense that most of these crimes would be perpetrated by them. I'm sure if we look at the ethnic make up of Switzerland's lower class, the numbers would make a whole lot more sense when compare to the crime ratios. Obviously, the same goes for other types of crime such as embezzlement...not going to have the homeless doing most of those, so look at the upper class and their ethnic make up to compare.
I don't really see any police hating or bashing in the posts, so no need to accuse those that differ in opinion of it. Otherwise, the rest of you must be racist...and I'm sure that that is not the case.
Finally, if in fact this policeman made these statements, there is a hint of racism coming through. The point was made in an earlier post, he makes it sound like immigrants would be pros in a break-in and the Swiss would be lost and put into an unfamiliar situation. What a dumb statement. A Swiss thief would know exactly what to do, just like an immigrant thief. Then, with continued stupidity, he speculates as to why crime is reported in the media in the way it is...what is he? Big Brother?
Abrsive, Nov 12, 2008 @ 17:07
Many of you keep commenting on the crime ration between immigrants and Swiss, but I don't understand why. We have to, initially assume that the numbers are correct, so this is not the argument. Now, if we start to discuss why the numbers are such...then we get into a bit of a mess. I'm sure none of us are criminologists or anywhere near being capable to give anything other than our opinion. As I understand it, there too many factors that come into play. Nevertheless, I will say this: In every country, most "serious" "violent" "ugly" (what ever you want to call it) crimes are committed by the poor...you just will not catch a UBS executive purse snatching an old lady. Therefore, if most of the poor are immigrants (as it is in most developed countries) then it actually makes sense that most of these crimes would be perpetrated by them. I'm sure if we look at the ethnic make up of Switzerland's lower class, the numbers would make a whole lot more sense when compare to the crime ratios. Obviously, the same goes for other types of crime such as embezzlement...not going to have the homeless doing most of those, so look at the upper class and their ethnic make up to compare.
I don't really see any police hating or bashing in the posts, so no need to accuse those that differ in opinion of it. Otherwise, the rest of you must be racist...and I'm sure that that is not the case.
Finally, if in fact this policeman made these statements, there is a hint of racism coming through. The point was made in an earlier post, he makes it sound like immigrants would be pros in a break-in and the Swiss would be lost and put into an unfamiliar situation. What a dumb statement. A Swiss thief would know exactly what to do, just like an immigrant thief. Then, with continued stupidity, he speculates as to why crime is reported in the media in the way it is...what is he? Big Brother?
Abrsive, Nov 12, 2008 @ 17:07
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Re: rasist policeman on WRS
Post 16
Nov 12, 2008 @ 18:04
Interesting thread...
Charlotta -- I was wondering what day you heard this report. I would like to track it down.
As to various opinions expressed, (in particular, those of DJ Symcard)
1. Who goes to jail in Switzerland and why. I asked a member of the Swiss national legislature (who, as it happens, is also a lawyer) about the veracity of the claim that foreigners are disproportionately represented in Swiss jails -- and why that might be the case.
He asserted that white Swiss are not likely to be jailed for alleged crimes on the assumption that they are not likely to flee the country. He specified "white" Swiss.
One cannot, therefore, make any realistic conclusions about the jail population based upon the percentages or statistics stated.
2. Police behavior. Twice in the past several years, I have seen plain clothes policemen arresting men of African descent (once in the Old Town and another time on Rue du Lausanne). Each time the a policemen turned to people nearby and stated that the arrested person was a "drug dealer.) In most criminal justice systems, there is a presumption of innocence.
This is kind of behavior is both racist and highly unethical. The separation of powers in Switzerland provides that the courts judge on these matters, not the police.
3. Dealers, Prostitutes and Users. It might be correct to state that the majority of dealers and/or prostitutes originate from one country or another. The reality is also that the Swiss have a less than sterling record of prosecuting high-level money-laundering and fraud cases which are clearly connected to organized crime controlling drugs and prostitution.
Additionally, I believe that prostitution is legal in Switzerland. And it is one thing to comment on the skin color of the prostitutes and drug dealers. Who are the clients? Swiss and foreigners of all skin color. Lots of married men.
4. Use of Statistics and Provocative Statements. It would be entirely correct to say that the majority of child molesters in Switzerland are white men of Swiss origin. And what if someone took out ads to this effect and posted them everywhere? Is it helpful even if true? Just the other day, the Swiss federal courts struck down a sentence of 8 years in jail for a convicted white Swiss male child molester. The courts ruled the sentence as being too harsh. What does that say about the Swiss justice system? Aren't children the most innocent victims of all?
5. Use of Speech in a Civilized Society. For those who believe that so-called politically correct speech is poisioning every day conversation, consider the fact that we all live in society. I think most people are willing to give the benefit of the doubt when something potentially insensitive is said.
But going around saying that "most drug dealers and prostitutes are from Africa or the Balkans" in serious conversation hardly leads to stimulating debate. It might be that people who make these "observations" consistently are racist. It is been my experience that most are too simple-minded to understand complex urban societies. One can only hope that their children are not so mentally limited.
The text you are quoting:
Interesting thread...
Charlotta -- I was wondering what day you heard this report. I would like to track it down.
As to various opinions expressed, (in particular, those of DJ Symcard)
1. Who goes to jail in Switzerland and why. I asked a member of the Swiss national legislature (who, as it happens, is also a lawyer) about the veracity of the claim that foreigners are disproportionately represented in Swiss jails -- and why that might be the case.
He asserted that white Swiss are not likely to be jailed for alleged crimes on the assumption that they are not likely to flee the country. He specified "white" Swiss.
One cannot, therefore, make any realistic conclusions about the jail population based upon the percentages or statistics stated.
2. Police behavior. Twice in the past several years, I have seen plain clothes policemen arresting men of African descent (once in the Old Town and another time on Rue du Lausanne). Each time the a policemen turned to people nearby and stated that the arrested person was a "drug dealer.) In most criminal justice systems, there is a presumption of innocence.
This is kind of behavior is both racist and highly unethical. The separation of powers in Switzerland provides that the courts judge on these matters, not the police.
3. Dealers, Prostitutes and Users. It might be correct to state that the majority of dealers and/or prostitutes originate from one country or another. The reality is also that the Swiss have a less than sterling record of prosecuting high-level money-laundering and fraud cases which are clearly connected to organized crime controlling drugs and prostitution.
Additionally, I believe that prostitution is legal in Switzerland. And it is one thing to comment on the skin color of the prostitutes and drug dealers. Who are the clients? Swiss and foreigners of all skin color. Lots of married men.
4. Use of Statistics and Provocative Statements. It would be entirely correct to say that the majority of child molesters in Switzerland are white men of Swiss origin. And what if someone took out ads to this effect and posted them everywhere? Is it helpful even if true? Just the other day, the Swiss federal courts struck down a sentence of 8 years in jail for a convicted white Swiss male child molester. The courts ruled the sentence as being too harsh. What does that say about the Swiss justice system? Aren't children the most innocent victims of all?
5. Use of Speech in a Civilized Society. For those who believe that so-called politically correct speech is poisioning every day conversation, consider the fact that we all live in society. I think most people are willing to give the benefit of the doubt when something potentially insensitive is said.
But going around saying that "most drug dealers and prostitutes are from Africa or the Balkans" in serious conversation hardly leads to stimulating debate. It might be that people who make these "observations" consistently are racist. It is been my experience that most are too simple-minded to understand complex urban societies. One can only hope that their children are not so mentally limited.
Translator, Nov 12, 2008 @ 18:04
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Re: rasist policeman on WRS
Post 17
Nov 12, 2008 @ 18:06
[quote]my main concern is that when a person of authority chooses to express himself like he did on a radio program, then the listeners will interpret these facts as being undeniably true, because they are being expressed by someone who has access to actual statistics. This, in turn, helps to generate racist opinions among those who already feel threatened by immigration. My argument concerns the moral responsibility and bad/good judgement among people in power.
Hence, your questions whether it is racist to say that most drug dealers are black or not etc are irrelevent here.
But since you ask: I think that a statement that is the result of actual observations, and that can easily be verified by anyone, would not classify as a rasist opinion as long as it is objectivley stated as a fact and not used as an argument to why blacks are inferior to white people or why Africans are a burden to Swiss economy or similar. I think that it would be a bit ridiculous to claim that a statement like "most drug dealers outside l'usine are black" for example is racist, because it's a fact. Not allowing yourself and others to state facts concerning immigrants and crimes does not help fight racism but would end up having the reverse effect. It is your intention that decides if you're racist or not.
As for your concern that "we have to assume that your post is word for word correct and accurate as to what the police officer said, and was not unintendedly exagerated by your outrage over what was said." I can only say that trying to prove the accuracy of what I claim to have heard is not only impossible since I didn't record it but would also be pointless anyway since your main concern seems to be to find flaws in my argument rather than understanding my point. And no, of course the quotes aren't "word for word" correct since my mind is not a tape recorder, but they are close enough.[/quote]
Well my point in questioning the accuracy of your post, is the fact that we are basing this debate on third party information, a he said, she said source of info. Which I do not doubt your integrity or concern over the information that was given, but rather, we might be missing something that would make a lot of our debating null and void.
As for someone interpreting what someone has said as undeniably true, well there are some that will, some that won't and some will interpret it in which ever way they feel like.
The fact that I have brought other points in, and shared some of my thoughts that this debate has provoked does not make them irrelevant, as they are only thoughts and not arguments.
I have picked at your post and arguments as I have seen things that can be picked at and things that are flawed, in a debate you have to be prepared to be criticised. Further more my initial intention was not to pick at your arguments but offer another perspective to the one you have, but since you have categorically refused it, I then turned to attacking the flaws in your argument - this is the nature of a debate.
Hence, your questions whether it is racist to say that most drug dealers are black or not etc are irrelevent here.
But since you ask: I think that a statement that is the result of actual observations, and that can easily be verified by anyone, would not classify as a rasist opinion as long as it is objectivley stated as a fact and not used as an argument to why blacks are inferior to white people or why Africans are a burden to Swiss economy or similar. I think that it would be a bit ridiculous to claim that a statement like "most drug dealers outside l'usine are black" for example is racist, because it's a fact. Not allowing yourself and others to state facts concerning immigrants and crimes does not help fight racism but would end up having the reverse effect. It is your intention that decides if you're racist or not.
As for your concern that "we have to assume that your post is word for word correct and accurate as to what the police officer said, and was not unintendedly exagerated by your outrage over what was said." I can only say that trying to prove the accuracy of what I claim to have heard is not only impossible since I didn't record it but would also be pointless anyway since your main concern seems to be to find flaws in my argument rather than understanding my point. And no, of course the quotes aren't "word for word" correct since my mind is not a tape recorder, but they are close enough.[/quote]
Well my point in questioning the accuracy of your post, is the fact that we are basing this debate on third party information, a he said, she said source of info. Which I do not doubt your integrity or concern over the information that was given, but rather, we might be missing something that would make a lot of our debating null and void.
As for someone interpreting what someone has said as undeniably true, well there are some that will, some that won't and some will interpret it in which ever way they feel like.
The fact that I have brought other points in, and shared some of my thoughts that this debate has provoked does not make them irrelevant, as they are only thoughts and not arguments.
I have picked at your post and arguments as I have seen things that can be picked at and things that are flawed, in a debate you have to be prepared to be criticised. Further more my initial intention was not to pick at your arguments but offer another perspective to the one you have, but since you have categorically refused it, I then turned to attacking the flaws in your argument - this is the nature of a debate.
The text you are quoting:
[quote]my main concern is that when a person of authority chooses to express himself like he did on a radio program, then the listeners will interpret these facts as being undeniably true, because they are being expressed by someone who has access to actual statistics. This, in turn, helps to generate racist opinions among those who already feel threatened by immigration. My argument concerns the moral responsibility and bad/good judgement among people in power.
Hence, your questions whether it is racist to say that most drug dealers are black or not etc are irrelevent here.
But since you ask: I think that a statement that is the result of actual observations, and that can easily be verified by anyone, would not classify as a rasist opinion as long as it is objectivley stated as a fact and not used as an argument to why blacks are inferior to white people or why Africans are a burden to Swiss economy or similar. I think that it would be a bit ridiculous to claim that a statement like "most drug dealers outside l'usine are black" for example is racist, because it's a fact. Not allowing yourself and others to state facts concerning immigrants and crimes does not help fight racism but would end up having the reverse effect. It is your intention that decides if you're racist or not.
As for your concern that "we have to assume that your post is word for word correct and accurate as to what the police officer said, and was not unintendedly exagerated by your outrage over what was said." I can only say that trying to prove the accuracy of what I claim to have heard is not only impossible since I didn't record it but would also be pointless anyway since your main concern seems to be to find flaws in my argument rather than understanding my point. And no, of course the quotes aren't "word for word" correct since my mind is not a tape recorder, but they are close enough.[/quote]
Well my point in questioning the accuracy of your post, is the fact that we are basing this debate on third party information, a he said, she said source of info. Which I do not doubt your integrity or concern over the information that was given, but rather, we might be missing something that would make a lot of our debating null and void.
As for someone interpreting what someone has said as undeniably true, well there are some that will, some that won't and some will interpret it in which ever way they feel like.
The fact that I have brought other points in, and shared some of my thoughts that this debate has provoked does not make them irrelevant, as they are only thoughts and not arguments.
I have picked at your post and arguments as I have seen things that can be picked at and things that are flawed, in a debate you have to be prepared to be criticised. Further more my initial intention was not to pick at your arguments but offer another perspective to the one you have, but since you have categorically refused it, I then turned to attacking the flaws in your argument - this is the nature of a debate.
DJ_Symcard, Nov 12, 2008 @ 18:06
Hence, your questions whether it is racist to say that most drug dealers are black or not etc are irrelevent here.
But since you ask: I think that a statement that is the result of actual observations, and that can easily be verified by anyone, would not classify as a rasist opinion as long as it is objectivley stated as a fact and not used as an argument to why blacks are inferior to white people or why Africans are a burden to Swiss economy or similar. I think that it would be a bit ridiculous to claim that a statement like "most drug dealers outside l'usine are black" for example is racist, because it's a fact. Not allowing yourself and others to state facts concerning immigrants and crimes does not help fight racism but would end up having the reverse effect. It is your intention that decides if you're racist or not.
As for your concern that "we have to assume that your post is word for word correct and accurate as to what the police officer said, and was not unintendedly exagerated by your outrage over what was said." I can only say that trying to prove the accuracy of what I claim to have heard is not only impossible since I didn't record it but would also be pointless anyway since your main concern seems to be to find flaws in my argument rather than understanding my point. And no, of course the quotes aren't "word for word" correct since my mind is not a tape recorder, but they are close enough.[/quote]
Well my point in questioning the accuracy of your post, is the fact that we are basing this debate on third party information, a he said, she said source of info. Which I do not doubt your integrity or concern over the information that was given, but rather, we might be missing something that would make a lot of our debating null and void.
As for someone interpreting what someone has said as undeniably true, well there are some that will, some that won't and some will interpret it in which ever way they feel like.
The fact that I have brought other points in, and shared some of my thoughts that this debate has provoked does not make them irrelevant, as they are only thoughts and not arguments.
I have picked at your post and arguments as I have seen things that can be picked at and things that are flawed, in a debate you have to be prepared to be criticised. Further more my initial intention was not to pick at your arguments but offer another perspective to the one you have, but since you have categorically refused it, I then turned to attacking the flaws in your argument - this is the nature of a debate.
DJ_Symcard, Nov 12, 2008 @ 18:06
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Re: rasist policeman on WRS
Post 18
Nov 12, 2008 @ 18:14
So Carlotta I'm either racist or simple minded eh???? ;)
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Re: rasist policeman on WRS
Post 19
Nov 12, 2008 @ 18:16
If someone has the time and energy to look through WRS' website, you can probably find this interview somewhere - also it's very possible that they will do a rerun of it, since they very often do that with their shows. I'm not sure which program it was on, but it was at some point this morning anyway. It was one of these programs where the listeners could phone in and ask questions to someone who's a specialist in some field; in this particular case: crime.
The text you are quoting:
If someone has the time and energy to look through WRS' website, you can probably find this interview somewhere - also it's very possible that they will do a rerun of it, since they very often do that with their shows. I'm not sure which program it was on, but it was at some point this morning anyway. It was one of these programs where the listeners could phone in and ask questions to someone who's a specialist in some field; in this particular case: crime.
charlotta, Nov 12, 2008 @ 18:16
charlotta, Nov 12, 2008 @ 18:16
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Re: rasist policeman on WRS
Post 20
Nov 12, 2008 @ 18:16
Sorry I meant Translator
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Re: rasist policeman on WRS
Post 21
Nov 12, 2008 @ 18:19
Well, I don't know you... I would agree with you that I want to hear the remarks of the policeman for myself...
However, I don't understand why people feel the need to point out one part of an equation without mentioning the other part... :blink:
The text you are quoting:
Well, I don't know you... I would agree with you that I want to hear the remarks of the policeman for myself...
However, I don't understand why people feel the need to point out one part of an equation without mentioning the other part... :blink:
Translator, Nov 12, 2008 @ 18:19
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Re: rasist policeman on WRS
Post 22
Nov 12, 2008 @ 18:22
I very much agree, I may not understand the whole situation or equation, but would definately like to find out!
Your simply minded friend
Simon
Your simply minded friend
Simon
The text you are quoting:
I very much agree, I may not understand the whole situation or equation, but would definately like to find out!
Your simply minded friend
Simon
DJ_Symcard, Nov 12, 2008 @ 18:22
Your simply minded friend
Simon
DJ_Symcard, Nov 12, 2008 @ 18:22
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Re: rasist policeman on WRS
Post 23
Nov 12, 2008 @ 18:27
Two interesting links:
First, for those of you interested in statistics, here you find all that is available
http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/en/index/themen/19/03/03/key/ueberblick/wichtigste_zahlen.html
There isnt any more precise statistics by nationality
And for the ones understanding french, a very good reportage from the swiss tv on the problem of violence and police in Geneva (police being brutal AND being brutalized).
http://www.tsr.ch/tsr/index.html?siteSect=370501&sid=9627320&cKey=1222349386000
It shows that there are serious problems, but at least now there's public awareness and things start to move... slowly...
First, for those of you interested in statistics, here you find all that is available
http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/en/index/themen/19/03/03/key/ueberblick/wichtigste_zahlen.html
There isnt any more precise statistics by nationality
And for the ones understanding french, a very good reportage from the swiss tv on the problem of violence and police in Geneva (police being brutal AND being brutalized).
http://www.tsr.ch/tsr/index.html?siteSect=370501&sid=9627320&cKey=1222349386000
It shows that there are serious problems, but at least now there's public awareness and things start to move... slowly...
The text you are quoting:
Two interesting links:
First, for those of you interested in statistics, here you find all that is available
http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/en/index/themen/19/03/03/key/ueberblick/wichtigste_zahlen.html
There isnt any more precise statistics by nationality
And for the ones understanding french, a very good reportage from the swiss tv on the problem of violence and police in Geneva (police being brutal AND being brutalized).
http://www.tsr.ch/tsr/index.html?siteSect=370501&sid=9627320&cKey=1222349386000
It shows that there are serious problems, but at least now there's public awareness and things start to move... slowly...
joellek, Nov 12, 2008 @ 18:27
First, for those of you interested in statistics, here you find all that is available
http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/en/index/themen/19/03/03/key/ueberblick/wichtigste_zahlen.html
There isnt any more precise statistics by nationality
And for the ones understanding french, a very good reportage from the swiss tv on the problem of violence and police in Geneva (police being brutal AND being brutalized).
http://www.tsr.ch/tsr/index.html?siteSect=370501&sid=9627320&cKey=1222349386000
It shows that there are serious problems, but at least now there's public awareness and things start to move... slowly...
joellek, Nov 12, 2008 @ 18:27
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Re: rasist policeman on WRS
Post 24
Nov 12, 2008 @ 18:39
Well, I believe that the police here (as in most places) are caught between a rock and a hard place. They are on the street and are under pressure to reduce crime and the appearance of crime in Geneva. I left Geneva in late 2000 and returned in late 2003. Upon my return, I noticed there appeared to be a lot more drug-related activity, especially around the train station.
However, the judicial system is a different animal and sentences are relatively lenient as compared to the US or even British justice system (what I know of it anyway...) Not that I believe Switzerland should adopt US sentencing guidelines!!!
Yet, I am also fascinated that the dissolution of Swiss Air, disappearance of hundreds of millions of francs from the Banc Cantonale de Geneve and the fraud at UBS (among other cases) does not raise anywhere near the same amount of outrage as petty crime and prostitution in Geneva.
Reminds me of the saying that if you steal, it's smarter to steal big!
The text you are quoting:
Well, I believe that the police here (as in most places) are caught between a rock and a hard place. They are on the street and are under pressure to reduce crime and the appearance of crime in Geneva. I left Geneva in late 2000 and returned in late 2003. Upon my return, I noticed there appeared to be a lot more drug-related activity, especially around the train station.
However, the judicial system is a different animal and sentences are relatively lenient as compared to the US or even British justice system (what I know of it anyway...) Not that I believe Switzerland should adopt US sentencing guidelines!!!
Yet, I am also fascinated that the dissolution of Swiss Air, disappearance of hundreds of millions of francs from the Banc Cantonale de Geneve and the fraud at UBS (among other cases) does not raise anywhere near the same amount of outrage as petty crime and prostitution in Geneva.
Reminds me of the saying that if you steal, it's smarter to steal big!
Translator, Nov 12, 2008 @ 18:39
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Re: rasist policeman on WRS
Post 25
Nov 12, 2008 @ 19:05
Translator, I just read your post: like I said, it was on this morning some time between 9 and 10. Great post by the way!
Symcard: thanks for filling me in on the nature of a debate. I could say the same things to you though, since my need to repeat myself came from the fact that I didn't feel that you were quite getting what my post was about - the question whether his statements are backed up by facts or not is in my opinion of less relevance than whether it is good judgement to express this in a radio program or not. It simply isn't true that I have "categorially refused" to discuss your points of views - the fact that I see things differently from you is another matter. I suppose that the fact that in a debate you have to tolerate to be picked at also applies to you.
I think it would be really good if someone managed to find this interview so that we don't have to argue about whether the facts are true or not. Of course I could have misheard some of the interview - I also didn't hear all of it. What made me start this thread in the first place though was that I was shocked to hear someone say something like this on a radio program, something that I personally interpret as racist statements, regardless of the surrounding circumstances, and I just wanted to air my frustration.
Symcard: thanks for filling me in on the nature of a debate. I could say the same things to you though, since my need to repeat myself came from the fact that I didn't feel that you were quite getting what my post was about - the question whether his statements are backed up by facts or not is in my opinion of less relevance than whether it is good judgement to express this in a radio program or not. It simply isn't true that I have "categorially refused" to discuss your points of views - the fact that I see things differently from you is another matter. I suppose that the fact that in a debate you have to tolerate to be picked at also applies to you.
I think it would be really good if someone managed to find this interview so that we don't have to argue about whether the facts are true or not. Of course I could have misheard some of the interview - I also didn't hear all of it. What made me start this thread in the first place though was that I was shocked to hear someone say something like this on a radio program, something that I personally interpret as racist statements, regardless of the surrounding circumstances, and I just wanted to air my frustration.
The text you are quoting:
Translator, I just read your post: like I said, it was on this morning some time between 9 and 10. Great post by the way!
Symcard: thanks for filling me in on the nature of a debate. I could say the same things to you though, since my need to repeat myself came from the fact that I didn't feel that you were quite getting what my post was about - the question whether his statements are backed up by facts or not is in my opinion of less relevance than whether it is good judgement to express this in a radio program or not. It simply isn't true that I have "categorially refused" to discuss your points of views - the fact that I see things differently from you is another matter. I suppose that the fact that in a debate you have to tolerate to be picked at also applies to you.
I think it would be really good if someone managed to find this interview so that we don't have to argue about whether the facts are true or not. Of course I could have misheard some of the interview - I also didn't hear all of it. What made me start this thread in the first place though was that I was shocked to hear someone say something like this on a radio program, something that I personally interpret as racist statements, regardless of the surrounding circumstances, and I just wanted to air my frustration.
charlotta, Nov 12, 2008 @ 19:05
Symcard: thanks for filling me in on the nature of a debate. I could say the same things to you though, since my need to repeat myself came from the fact that I didn't feel that you were quite getting what my post was about - the question whether his statements are backed up by facts or not is in my opinion of less relevance than whether it is good judgement to express this in a radio program or not. It simply isn't true that I have "categorially refused" to discuss your points of views - the fact that I see things differently from you is another matter. I suppose that the fact that in a debate you have to tolerate to be picked at also applies to you.
I think it would be really good if someone managed to find this interview so that we don't have to argue about whether the facts are true or not. Of course I could have misheard some of the interview - I also didn't hear all of it. What made me start this thread in the first place though was that I was shocked to hear someone say something like this on a radio program, something that I personally interpret as racist statements, regardless of the surrounding circumstances, and I just wanted to air my frustration.
charlotta, Nov 12, 2008 @ 19:05
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Re: rasist policeman on WRS
Post 26
Nov 12, 2008 @ 19:42
Actually, I think it was on "your space". I couldn't find today's show on their website though, so maybe it's not up yet.
The text you are quoting:
Actually, I think it was on "your space". I couldn't find today's show on their website though, so maybe it's not up yet.
charlotta, Nov 12, 2008 @ 19:42
charlotta, Nov 12, 2008 @ 19:42
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