What are you talking about ?? haha

Hi Durgesh,

your vision of psychologists, like you are exposing here, is rather extrem.

Certainly, psychologists are not perfect and just human beings like you and me with their strength and their weekness. Its very important to choose the right psychologist in case, but I can tell you, from my experience, that they do great jobs and helped so many people.

Maybe you could reconsider your judgement?

Have a nice day Durgesh

Sonia

I don't know if your fact about the suicide rate is correct, but let's assume it is. Even so, it means nothing. Just because a psychologist can't help himself or herself, doesn't mean they can't help others. I know of several cases where a good shrink made a big difference in people's lives. 

Of course some shrinks are crap - just like in every profession - but I think that overall they can help a lot. 

Yes, Durgesh. I'm sensing a lot of bitterness here ... maybe stemming from an event in childhood. Is there something you'd like to share with the group? Oh, I'm sorry - our time is up.

Pretty witty there Rich, pretty witty...(-:

I agree with Nir. They provide valuable assistance in curing things from phobias to, oh, I don't know, sex addiction at Glocals events.

Hello guys,

Thanks for response.

Here I am not talking about my past life experience. I am just talking about the basic idea, basic root of   psychology .Just a simple question, is it possible to control your mind by your mind? Controlling thoughts by thoughts? (I hope it’s not so philosophical). Yes I agree that psychologist can help you but only in periphery not in the center. They can talk nicely. If you give so much attention to, who is already suffering, then he will start enjoying your attention, your sympathy.

Durgesh

I don't agree entirely with Durgesh's post, but as a provocative start of a discussion it works pretty well. 

It reminds me of an observation that I made during my studies: that students in 'social healthcare' education are typically more messed up than average students. At the time I wondered the same thing as Durgesh; if that's the case, then should they really be working in social healthcare, won't they do more harm than good?

But I think the situation is a bit more nuanced than that. People who have had contact with psychologists and other social professionals during their childhood are more likely to choose it as a profession. And people who choose this type of profession are constantly talking about their feelings, and as a result will often be more aware of their own feelings. So maybe their rate of suicide is high, I don't know. 

But this all doesn't take away the fact that consulting a psychologist can make a huge (positive) difference for people with a whole range of problems. 

quacks can help...

Building on Edward's thought, my own theory (not data based at all!) is that indeed some folks who chose to study psychology did it to solve their own issues. So there's a higher-than-average % of messes up folks in the profession.

Still doesn't mean tho these professionals can't help others.

Psychologists have the highest rate of suicide because no matter how hard they try to keep a distance, they eventually shoulder the burden of their patients. It takes very strong individuals to flirt with insanity all day long and emerge intact at the end of the day and they are just humans.

Who cares if they Just Can’t Help Themselves as long as they understand and are able to help those who need them? Which is quite paradoxical by the way: On one hand they need to relate to their patients, i.e. find echoes in themselves of what bothers them and be in touch with their own angst and disorder to ba able to guide them, and on the other, they need to achieve perfect  mental and emotional balance in order not to be carried away by their distress.

Saying that a shrink must be a perfectly well adjusted individual, in sound health in both body and mind, is like saying that a football coach must be able to play better than the guys on the field. It just does not work that way.

I always thought dentists had the highest suicide rate.

Interesting discussion. Once upon a time, I studied psychology...guess that shows why I am the way I am.  When I started studying it, it was under Arts, when I was midway, it was moved under Science. I have long-form stories in my journals to blame myself on why I gave up on this field of study and I wouldn't want to bore the c**p out of everyone here...

Human psychology, as far as I learnt, is not an exact science. It is a form of logic that focusses on various methods to arrive at multiple conclusions and interpretations to understand the human mind. It is not like mathematics though, which is an extreme form of logic but if we were to try & calculate the human mind...this is probably what it'd still look like...uncountable infinity, which is probably why psychology is dubbed as a soft-science.

Does that mean we stop learning & trying to count? No way! I guess we all use this science in our own ways, more or less and some make a living out of it. It also makes it increasingly hard to add numeric values to contributions to society by psychologists.

Looking at suicide rates can provide a statistical insight, but as a has-been psychology student, I could tell you - there's only one way to know for sure if every act classed as suicide was truly a suicide...is to wake the person up, put them on a couch & ask them. Go figure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJb-VZ-5jaI

I hope the bearded dude in this video is getting paid by the hour and for every extra "shhh" and "heeee" he adds to each word. I would also venture that he developed that cause it would have a strong hypnotic effect on many ppl. Everyone's got their "thang"... maybe he choose this instead of hanging heavy objects from his balls.

I think also maybe having stopped reading anything in 5 years might have started to have it's effect on him.

Just my opinion and not intended to offend anyone.

That being said, the disucssion is interesting. I might add that isn't it not usually the psychologist who does the work in a session, but rather the patient? And having a bunch of good friends that you can talk openly too is also very helpful in my opinion. I wouldn't have gotten through some tough spots without them, and in my experience they were vastly more helpful than a shrink... still good friends are hard to find and I count myself very lucky in that respect. In any case, it's just always good to bounce ideas off other minds, helps formulate our thoughts concretely... we are social being after all, and evolved in that for very good reasons. So we need to share and discuss, whether that person is a friend or getting paid to listen. After all, why would we have having this discussion in the first place?

Some of the best pyschotherapy happens on glocals forums!!!

Keep on rockin!

I guess i'm still lost here...

Can I ask Durgesh? What exaclty are you trying to say? That we should abolish the profession of psychology? That we should find better psychologists to help psychiatrists? That we should all build a teepee and do group meditation (actually this is an excellent idea).

Then your questions... i don't see the link exaclty, but ok, they are intersting. If you cannot control your thoughts with your thoughts and your mind with your mind, what would you control them with?? A large piece of wood covered in a wet blanket knocked gently against the skull does have a nice numbing effect on thought process that is helpful sometimes. I think some ppl prefer whiskey... (sorry... i can't help myself)..

David W: You insult his holy beard? That's precisely the source of his wisdom...alongwith the 93 Rolls Royces that may have grown to 365 if the US Attorney general hadn't intervened!

Osho: What a pain to listen to this guy who needs one minute to place 5 words. His speech is full of undocumented, hard to verify facts and he somewhat pretends that he has the Truth. Rolls Royce, big beard, big eyes and slow elocution are no substitude to wisdom.

Here's something to make up for the pain...

There is a simple answer to this question. People consult mental health professionals (psychiatrists, who are medically trained, psychologists, who are not, and a variety of other psychotherapists) because they are in pain. One of the main role of physicians is to alleviate pain and suffering, both physical and mental. A more ambitious aim may be to achieve a cure, but for many ailments, that is not always possible. Humility along with competence and an awareness of one's limitations are some of the essential prerequisites of  those beautiful professions. A vast culture in the neurosciences, in the psychoanalytical theories and in the body mind connections, among others,  are essential to achieve results.

As to the profile of therapists, personal problems are no hindrance, to the extent that they they have been resolved by personal work. A didactic analysis is a prerequisite for those undergoing psychoanalytic training.Physicians who have a personal experience with illness, make better doctors. Such exposure to  suffering is a good basis to develop empathy, an essential component of a successful patient-doctor relationship. Finally, any dogmatic attitude is dangerous, weather it comes from a guru or from a western scientist. The essence is tolerance, curiosity, openess to the uniqueness of every human being, suffering of not.

Philippe,

From your profile, I understand that you speak from experience ("practicing as a physician psychotherapist") but your comment on psychiatrists who are medically trained and psychologists who are not may imply that the latter may be less qualified, which I have to disagree with. They are both dealing with distress or mental illness but from a different background. Physicians are indeed fully trained doctors and have access to medication unlike psychologists, but, to compensate, they have a richest background in studying and understanding the human soul to which they dedicated their studies 5 years for a Master of Science in Psychology in UNIGE, not counting the doctorate for those who wish to go further). As far as I am concerned, I believe that these two disciplines should be merged into a single one encompassing neurosciences, psychology, pharmacology, and philosophy so as to make it a science (or an art) concerned with the body mind connections that you touched upon.

David you are very close.

Mind cannot be controlled with mind, you have to go beyond mind .I think this can achieved by meditation, but I am not interested to form any group, I am interested in individuals .I think group is the byproduct of unknown fear.

Buddha and Sigmund Freud had started from same point, but Buddha reached beyond mind. All his teaching is to take you beyond your mind .So I think there is basic mistakes in evaluation of psychology it is still very immature science.

Durgesh: How did Buddha manage to go beyond mind? Have you met him? Did you peep into his life and that of Freud? How are you building that relationship...on the basis of another Osho video or through deductive reasoning?

How can it be the same Buddha who says, "All that we are is the result of what we have thought. The mind is everything. What we think we become," go beyond the very element he says is everything?

Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.

This is also by Prince Gautama Siddharta. Are you following this same, exact process to arrive at your conclusions that lead to, as it seems to me, concrete opinions?

Good points Arun - but surely this must be the best shrink ever! 

As long as this one's in the top ten...

One more shrink with an accurate summation of the male psyche.

Oh good sir Durgesh? Will I win a prize if I find the answer? Will I reach enlightenment???

Yes, David Grasshopper! You mustn't give up.

Surely people just want to be heard and acknowledged, and that is what psychology provides - helping people who are so caught up in their emotions and thoughts and helping them to manage them. We all have emotions and there are different ways of dealing with them such as suppressing, venting, expressing for example. When a situation becomes unbearable that is often when people seek help such as a psychologist. I personally believe that when we are so caught up in our emotions and thoughts and so identified with them, with a difficult situation, that is when a psychologist can be helpful. 

However managing emotions is like using drugs to manage bodily symptoms, it doesn't necessarily treat the underlying cause. While expressing may be a more positive approach than venting or suppressing, it doesn't necessarily release the underlying pattern. We all have desires, such as wanting approval, control and security - imagine going through an entire day without wanting any approval from the world at all. And this is what I believe Buddha was pointing to when he said the root of all suffering lies in the desire we have (for the world). So to be free of all desire is to be free from suffering. 

Robert Adams said that: "As long as you believe in your mind that there’s a problem, whether it’s little or big doesn’t matter, they’re both the same, but as long as you believe you’ve got a problem, you’ll have a problem, and it’ll grow. You won’t be able to change it. It may appear that you change it, but, when you try to work with the problem itself, it turns into something else of a worse nature. Never try to work with the problem."

Yes. Conditions apply on the material prize*. Enlightenment is subject matter of solicitation through patented methods in the higher Himalayas by very old bearded, glow-in-the-dark men who put children to work on marijuana plantations. You could also find it on youtube for free but act now as the enlightenment industry is now against the free internet!

* The game starts now. You have to score one thousand points. If you do that, you take home a shiny tank with a big gun. Each day we will announce the scores from that loudspeaker. The one who has the fewest points will have to wear a sign that says "Jackass" on his back. There are three ways to lose points. One, turning into a big crybaby. Two, telling us you want to see your mommy. Three, saying you're hungry and want something to eat. - Guru Guido

I love this thread...

Let's all get together and watch kung fu movies!!!

Einstein is abnormal, because a normal man never bothers about the mathematics of the world -- why should he bother? Michelangelo is abnormal; he must have some psychological problem -- that's why he becomes so imaginative. Van Gogh is abnormal. Buddha, Jesus, Krishna -- all are in some way neurotic. They are not normal: abnormal. They are all condemned. Then who is normal?
you??

It took me a small moment and a nice CNTR-F to look if Einstein was ever mentioned in this thread... unless i missed it, NOPE... Durgesh, just what are you talking about? You have a strong tendency I've noticed to say random things that don't seem to be connected to anything.

You also seem quite obsessed with finding out whether other ppl are 'normal'. If I read between the lines, it might seem to me that you have a need to prove that everyone is not 'normal'... are you projecting something here? 

The average family in Switzerland has 1.4 children....

Who's the .4 child ?

Who is normal ??!  

Here you go.

QED, I believe.